Top 10 Things Designers Need to STOP Doing

[@weshenriksen2481]

one of my ten would be:"set up and teardown is part of the game experience. if it takes 45 minutes to set up the game, it will rarely hit the table"

[@akulkis]

Wargamers routinely play games that take 15~45 minutes to set up. Because the games they play are worth the value (learning about historical choices made by the leaders who were there, etc.) of such set-up times; other games, not so much.

[@eirikjormungandrson]

Well Arkham Horror can take up to 2 hours for setup alone, but still worth it

[@board-qu9iu]

Depends on the type of games

[@revimfadli4666]

If I want setup to be part of the game(or even the game itself), I'd rather play LEGO instead

[@0Letten0]

Yeah That is why Eldrich Horror was such a failure.

[@Bobaflott]

New Kickstarter: Star Wars: Vikings vs Zombies, Cthulhu edition

[@stormy7722]

Take my money!!!!!!!!

[@ppsh43]

I am waiting for the legacy version.

[@funkoxen]

meh. needs more miniatures.

[@DarkLeviathan8]

it's a deck building, dice rolling, free for all dungeon crawler.

[@5mb01ic8]

Vikings lead to Wars, Wars leads to Zombies, and Zombies lead to Chthuuulu. Don't worry young whatchama-call-it, the farce will be with you.

[@zachwhaley208]

Holy Cow Zee! I stopped the video to write this comment. Your #2 is amazing! "Start listening to playtesters for emotions". Wow man. I just had 2 play tests yesterday, and I certainly did not incorporate this as well as I will on my next one. Thanks man. Real deep, but practical stuff here.

[@McPhisto]

Yeah, I really thought that was the standout moment of the video. It's a very incisive point phrased in a very simple manner.

[@hardbathsalts3143]

How do you get to be a play tester? Do you have to be a well known person in the community?

[@connormacmillan5227]

Not at all, every designer is looking for play testers, since its the most important phase of design. Here's a BGG forum for people looking for testers. boardgamegeek.com/forum/1530034/boardgamegeek/seeking-play-testers

[@donaldmacleod4285]

Kickstarter designer's please don't change things mid campaign because of the 2 vocal people in the comments page.

[@Strausburg]

This!!! It's insulting when someone makes a stink after the Kickstarter and think they speak for everyone. If there are 1000 backers not complaining and only one person has a problem, _maybe they should consider that THEY are the problem._ Instead of making demands and manipulating everyone's copy of the game, they just should've not backed in the first place.

[@Crewka]

Donald Macleod YES. That goes with too many variables. this game was originally all players against each other, but now we added teams and solo and Co op because people asked. If this is what they want, maybe they should get a different game. If you force options, it makes me feel they'll be no good.

[@steveg7000]

....Or because of 3 vocal top-ten listers. Zing!

[@jgtogi6839]

Be vocal during your Kickstarters. Designers are often looking for feedback since the game is often in the prototype phase. If two people are being vocal and there is no dissenting opinion then why wouldn't a designer listen to them? As a back you are not just a consumer you are a investor. You need to make your opinion heard. Wake up , get up and get out there.

[@charlieinnes4378]

@@jgtogi6839 Not when you aren't offering your copies as retail copies. In that case, consumers and "investors" alike have no choice. If you are sending an already designed (mechanically) game to kickstart, changing it for someone who has never played it is ridiculous

[@Southfloridelphia]

Not sure why but the video looks great with you guys on the porch. Maybe it is the nature light but I think you should keep doing them there.

[@RGcrasyRG]

You mean green screen light? :)

[@BrettBrewer]

Not a green screen. It's the covered porch at the Dice Tower HQ :)

[@RGcrasyRG]

Huh! Still looks weird to me )

[@d.b.4910]

I was going to say the same thing. I love this new setting.

[@Southfloridelphia]

That is just because there is direct sunlight hitting the ground behind them. They should experiment to find the time of day when there is enough light, but it doesn't create the effect where it almost looks like two layers.

[@beforehonour]

This is expert advice. They could've charged thousands for this. And they would've made much more had they written this up and sold it to a book publisher. The Dice Tower just did everyone a solid by giving away their combined decades of experience for free.

[@fathervader]

I think you're telling the truth.

[@parkertownley-smith6109]

They are making money from KZbin ad revenue

[@WARDEATHFUN]

@@parkertownley-smith6109 So lunch is covered you're saying.

[@leow.2162]

I don't think there is a lot of money in board games and probably even less in selling ebooks on making board games, no matter the quality of what you're saying.

[@joaoh.dluhosch3352]

Damn, watching this as a product designer myself, couldn't help thinking that Zee would be an amazing designer! Lots and lots of good insight, keep it up you three!

[@revimfadli4666]

Or at least a developer

[@invinciblegames2777]

As a maths teacher, watching this as I mark tests... I love the combinations/permutations discussion. Properly made me chuckle. Also love First Class so I was already listening to the advice. And yes... it is 10. AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE and DE

[@eddieb8054]

Loved it. Was counting in my head as he said it.

[@jos-feratu]

Def. more than 10: AB AC AD AE AF BC BD BE BF CD CE CF DE DF

[@cthulwho8197]

Several of these combine into my view which is "Stop using the paying public as your playtesters". It's becoming too common for a game to come out and then a year later a version 2 appears which adds or changes rules to iron out all the issues players have discovered. I would prefer the game was released a year later once those issues had been resolved.

[@paulallen579]

Good Point! Video games are even worse at this, because it’s so much cheaper to release software than physical games. But board game designers should not copy how EA do their business, everybody just suffers through that and you don’t want your players to feel like you’re EA.

[@TheEpinema]

I gave my rule-book to my Mum because she's really attentive with proofing, also she's not a gamer... I'm not saying she tore it apart but DANG! It became 5 times clearer to any layman on the street. Constructive criticism is not criticism and the best thing anyone can do is be honest with you, encourage your play-testers and proof-readers to be brutally honest :-)

[@scottsnelling5610]

I've got friends who do game design (started with a tabletop RPG, and moving into card games). The biggest favor I did for them (since I'm good with technical writing and have read TONS of rule books) is ripped their rulebook to shreds with red ink. Sure, they're my friends. But if I want them to succeed, they don't need their ego's praised. They need their rules fixed. And thankfully, they are wise, and thanked me for my harsh critique. They took it to heart, and spent the time to update it again. The next blind playtest they did had significantly fewer questions by the GM/players.

[@Geographus666]

If you know that your mom/friend/whatever is capable of doing that, and won't sugarcoat it because of you, that is totally fine, but you need to be shure that said person can do that. I am for the most part always trying to avoid conflicts and such, and I rather not give my opinion to persons who I know won't react to it gladly, UNLESS those persons clearly ask for it and use keywords such as "be honest" or "seriously", in which case they will get just what they asked for.

[@TheEpinema]

I got quite late into dev and started playing with my friends. One of them said, "It would be better if your game was any fun." Gotta admit, that stung for a bit but I got back to the pen and pad and made a version that was way better lol

[@rosiefay7283]

Good for your Mum, TheEpinema. The bane of my gaming experience is rules which, as stated in the rule book, are unclear, ambiguous or otherwise inadequate.

[@drugmate9710]

Constructive criticism means telling someone your opinion on something without insulting you. "I think x drags the game out too long and I think cutting it out will only make the game better" is constructive criticism. "What the fuck have you been smoking to think THAT mechanic was a good idea" is not. "The biggest favor I did for them is ripped their rulebook to shreds with red ink" is being an ass.

[@ComodinZero]

Just commenting to say you guys are growing a better synergy with every video. Congrats youre one of my fav youtube channels.

[@EldritchBones]

love how you guys are sitting on your covered porch. very nice atmosphere

[@Deadlyish]

As someone new to game design, these videos are immensely helpful in helping me learn what to avoid and what aspects of my prototype will probably need a fair bit more work. Thanks for sharing your expertise.

[@bronzedivision]

The hilarious thing is that anyone who needs this information WON'T ever see it. They have egos and don't do research like watching these sorts of videos.

[@LookAtTheBacon]

bronzedivision This, unfortunately..

[@arakuss1]

The main reason why designers won't look at this is this is now how games are designed anyways. Most game designers will never have their games published good or bad. For one big publishers don't often take on random submission. Most game designers will never make much on their game anyways so most who do pursue publishing their game must have egos of some sort to see that their idea gets published. In fact most game designers don't publish to make money they publish because they want to see their idea published. The truth is you will now if you have a good game or not by play testing to your target demographic. A designer then usually chooses a publisher who publishes games for that market. Some publishers are willing to sometimes broaden their horizons. Idea, theme, mechanics that bring out theme, play test towards target group, publisher experienced or willing to target that specific group. But most of all expect failure and rejection and try again. Few ever get published so you have to believe in your idea if you really want it published.

[@mateuswolcow3879]

I'm designing my First boardgame, a 4x with heavy resource management Focus, and thank god i'm making a Lot of research, because i broke like 7 or 8 recomendations they gave...

[@revimfadli4666]

@@LookAtTheBacon fortunately, people who do look for & accept these kinds of input would likely find them helpful

[@LookAtTheBacon]

@@revimfadli4666 that's true, absolutely. Glad there are these people :)

[@XShrike0]

I wish they would give some examples of games that commit these issues.

[@woPLrdAY]

XShrike my guess is they didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings

[@coralinealgae]

Super Dungeon Explore I love painting the minis but they never developed the rules properly. Too clunky, too long, unclear rules...

[@littleratblue]

XShrike I think the video is based on self-published games and stuff that they've had demoed to them by wannabe designers directly, at cons, or sent to them by mail. Basically, it's all the advice based on seeing unpublished and shouldn't-be-published games. You would never have heard of any of the examples, if they said a few names, and I doubt they have any specific games in mind anyways, because they're talking about things they see over and over. I've never encountered half the things they mention, as a player (40 variants in the rule book, etc.), so I'm pretty sure that, like I said, they're talking mostly about games that can't be found anywhere in the world except for one copy that a guy keeps in his basement and pulls out once a year to pitch at cons.

[@SyntaxAI]

XShrike yes I think they should do a video on that

[@GreenLeadr]

This video is almost worthless without examples

[@briancline7349]

The “holding back parts for expansions” is definitely happening a lot in video games...

[@WARDEATHFUN]

and it works so well so we'll see it in tabletop games as well

[@ShuffleUpandDeal32]

What core mechanisms have been left out of video games for an expansion? lol

[@drugmate9710]

@@ShuffleUpandDeal32 It happens in a lot of strategy games where a certain faction is introduces and it's bare bones only to get a major overhaul in a DLC. Total War Warhammer and Stellaris are a great example of this.

[@stefanocrespi5424]

"Stop rolling for movement!" They rolled for movement. Great video, as usual.

[@davidbidle1212]

Stefano Crespi they rolled for order, not movement.

[@coreymayo8321]

ZEE, loved your #2 on listening to playtester's emotions. My main experience playtesting was for the Roll Player expansion. The designer really seemed most interested in feedback like "it feels like the solo gamer is getting cheated here." I hadn't really even pieced that together until I saw this.

[@ryansb3166]

Best comment: "It takes more time to design a game than make a kid."

[@dabearz27]

I don't normally agree with Sam, but I thought his list was spot-on here. That being said, this list felt very directed compared to their previous list about designer tips.

[@MasterdoMagic]

10 combinations is correct. You choose one module out of 5, then one out of 4. 5x4 = 20. But that counts (A,B) and (B,A) twice, so you divide by 2. 10 :)

[@lloydcrosby5392]

1 and 2, 1 and 3, 1 and 4, 2 and 3, 2 and 4, 3 and 4. 6 combinations with 4 variables.

[@Romey301]

MasterdoMagic combinatorics!!

[@warmachineuk]

Hurray for people who stayed awake during maths classes!

[@HelmerAslaksen]

I actually show that segment to my students, as an example of what an educated person should know. It's simple, but I like the ease with which Tom answers it!

[@castorscadence2113]

1 and 2, 1 and 3, 1 and 4, 1 and 5, 2 and 3, 2 and 4, 2 and 5, 3 and 4, 3 and 5, 4 and 5 = all combinations

[@Godonstilts]

Copyright and Patents are very different. You can't copyright a game with any amount of money, as Copyright is both automatic and free (you just have to prove you did it first). Copyright protects "Copy", for example, the aesthetics, the rules (as written), and anything you have written about your game (e.g. text on cards etc.) Patents protect technologies (generally speaking) - so in theory, you would patent a mechanic. However, this is incredibly difficult, and potentially very expensive, and time consuming etc. As Tom said, it's not worth it! You cannot protect an idea, you can only protect the tangible result of an idea. Most games out there use the mechanics from one or many other games that already exist. It is very rare to have a truly unique or new mechanic. For example, drawing cards is a mechanic, and an idea - you can't protect the idea of drawing cards. You can design very unique looking cards, and copyright the designs but that would be automatic.

[@noralockley8816]

I design and create art work for cards and books and I don' t know how many times I tell people you don't really need to waste your money copyrighting the art work. One once I draw it and create the art its copyrighted. I then give them a license or the rights to the art work. That all they really need. Oh and not all text covered by copy right including much of the text on cards. It has to still be unique language and original. But yes you don't need to copyright especially unless you have the money to waste to have it officially logged.

[@XRay44]

To the fellow on the right... who are you and what have you done with Sam Healey?!?

[@ramonosuke]

One of the best top tens in awhile! Everyone had really good points, but Sam was on fire, especially with his #'s 2 and 3.

[@MiguelSeabraMelo]

Zee Garcia HAS to be one of the funniest guys on youtube. His expressions in every video are genious. :D

[@Mann42]

Interestingly, as a video game developer, a lot of these (or at least, the spirit of them) apply to video game development as well. Thanks for the insight, this was a really great video.

[@betterthanhuman]

This was one of the most entertaining Top 10s you guys have done. Bravo.

[@gobo2093]

I wish you would have given a few example games for each point you made.

[@EamonBurke]

Great stuff all around in this video, but Zee is dropping some SOLID GOLD

[@checkrazor76]

Great job by all three. This time I have to say Sam brought it. When these lists are games I don't always agree with his reasons for certain games being on or left off a list. But with this stuff he nailed it. Nice

[@anubis243-x5h]

Designers should not stop until there is a Cthulhu version of every game. And I mean every game. I'm looking at you Chutes and Ladders.

[@bobthemonitor9697]

anubis243 Cthutes and Ladders

[@funkoxen]

what have you got against snakes?

[@Alittlefruitgoesalongway]

Instead of snakes and ladders, it could be tentacles and ladders.

[@haroldpinkman2595]

@@bobthemonitor9697 Cthandy Land.

[@robertolsen8936]

Really enjoyed the video! You made a lot of good points, but I also feel some of your thoughts boils down to personal opinion and how well it's executed (e.g. long games, roll to move, ignoring replayability, artwork, Shout this!). Look forward to more videos like this. Really nice background :)

[@patcon314]

MATH! 10 ways of combining 2 modules from 5 possibilities. Tom knows math.

[@eddieb8054]

AB AC AD AE BC BD BE CD CE DE Combinations. Not Permutations. I don’t wear a hat. But hat’s off to you Vassal.

[@crazbird]

I am really enjoying the new backdrop for these videos. It really shows the increase in your production! I love watching this channel grow!

[@quincevanorden4935]

Tom if it is so easy to get our games published now days, then tell us how or what companies are more likely to publish 1st time designers. Make a video of that.

[@jgtogi6839]

/facepalm

[@charlieinnes4378]

Days of Wonder has published first time designers as codesigners on their two most recent games. Look esoteric publisher.

[@chrisgui5936]

I love how passionate they get towards the end of the video. Also shows what they look for when they play a new game and some insight on how they think about whether or not it's a good game. Gives me more confidence in their recommendations.

[@eddieb8054]

Laughed when tom was going through his permutation list. 10 vs 16. I was sitting here adding them up in my head.

[@Geographus666]

Ah, so I wasn't the only one who did that.

[@ppsh43]

And he was totally checked out of what Sam was saying as he mentally worked on the puzzle

[@complex1ty]

Re: Tom's #9: "Wasting time copywriting" (6:13 - 7:26) : I wonder if the word "copywriting" could be edited? Tom is talking about getting a copyright for your work (copyrighting), not writing for advertising or marketing (copywriting). Thanks for making all these videos. They are helpful!

[@RobertLink]

Exactly. Copyrighting your game may or may not be useful, but writing good copy will probably improve your sales.

[@MatroidX]

Thanks for the video! Great points - especially helpful for me were "playtest for emotions rather than mechanics" and "don't become a publisher". I'm pleased that I was in strong agreement with almost all entries; hopefully it means I'm on the right path :) @Sam Healey: Regarding your #1 (dice rolling for movement / combat), obviously it can be poorly done so the game is dominated by luck, but would you still have a problem with the mechanism if the game is designed so that a skilled player can dominate? For instance, in backgammon where one can adopt a back game strategy when behind in the race? Or hypothetically a game where one could modify dice / choose alternative dice for different probability distributions?

[@amandamorao]

Wow, just top notch top 10s this year! Both in topics and chemistry. I really dig when you do topics that are not just "this genre, if you saw our top 100, you probably already know". If I could suggest, I'd love to see top 10 games that needs expansions (variety, balancing, etc.), games that starts exciting but ends in a lackluster way, worst expansions. Keep up the amazing work!

[@36VZ]

Great video guys! Tom's reaction to Zee's #4 was hilarious. Also, kudos to Tom for not beating around the bush with his #2. That probably hurt some feelings but he makes a solid point.

[@theblart4196]

What game was Sam talking about on his #2....Zombie KS game that excluded a core mechanism from the retail edition??

[@juanpablozabala4975]

J Dubb also wondering about this. please share your knowledge with us.

[@ZeroShadow90]

Gaaaaah I'm watching this video two years later and I'm really interested in Zombicide BP/Green Horde at the moment, are they talking about it?? Or what??

[@Ry0kanzaki]

Which zombie game that was made "complete" with the expansion? Also for Sam's #1, what about Masmorra for rolling which actions you get to take?

[@Gutock]

This has got to be one of your better videos. Good, insightful comments and a good pace. Keep it up!

[@caradonschuester2568]

I did one thing here that they said not to do. see, I typically hated card and board games. never appreciated them....until I came up with an idea. I figured "Hurr durr, its just a card game, anyone can do th-NO... it's an involved process that's taken me years to research, and scrape together. but so rewarding. I've been holding back going for funding until I get a few more details ironed out. I still don't really enjoy card games or board games but I have a new appreciation for them

[@rhadiel]

Started designing board games recently and this is my new design bible. Can't thank you enough for putting this together.

[@nathannemeth4094]

LOL! I love when Zee tells everyone Tom's email when he "messes up"

[@MrTravolta7]

Sam: there are people out there whos favorite ice cream flavor is vanilla. Zee: I don't think so ... Whaaaat !!! I'm Portuguese and I never understood why using the word vanilla with that meaning. Now I understand. You think vanilla is not a flavor, lol !!!!! One of my favorite flavors is vanilla and also for many people I know.

[@Tubalcain422]

MrTravolta7 oh have you never tried vanilla with other flavors added? Because vanilla is a base, not a standalone.

[@haroldpinkman2595]

The vanilla extends life. The vanilla expands consciousness.

[@revimfadli4666]

I'd like to add "stop ignoring color composition, contrast, & readability issues". Bad colors can ruin otherwise great art. Having texts/symbols that are hard to read would defeat their purpose of clearly communicating rules, effects etc to the players. Having outlines or unsharp masking might help

[@zacdredge3859]

With the expansion one I want to clarify a couple exceptions; A) an expansion that adds a different play mode such as altered player count which the original form of the game would have to be modified to accommodate(game still works as intended just with less players, no 1-2 player mode etc) or B) the features in question fall within a kind of interaction that isn't necessary to the game inherently and involve negative player interaction that you want to leave as an option but not force it into the original when it will have a broader appeal as a game with other forms of interaction that are less aggressive, direct competition-style etc. That's where I'm at right now.

[@LucasGentry]

I absolutely love the porch setting. It just makes it feel so peaceful. The guys seem so happy and relaxed. I just love it.

[@TheLookingGlassAU]

In many cases if I find out a game winner is decided on a points system - I don't buy it. A heavily themed game that is decided on points when points is not a real part of the theme, actually makes me not want to bother getting into the theme because the points drags me out of the theme.

[@Bajicoy]

Heard you guys diss vanilla flavored ice cream, immediately went to the comment section and was not disappointed

[@elijah27272]

What would you suggest designers replace the roll and move mechanism with?

[@ElpredatorGYRO]

The number one of Tom : Every miniature games ever.

[@Wr0ngNumb3r]

Fantastic list guys! Special props for the "Start listening to playtesters for emotions rather than mechanics" one. Oh, and vanilla was my favorite flavor for years when I was a kid (no more though).

[@michaelsmaragdakis4272]

Zee was the MVP here, some very well thought picks and not so obvious. Especially his 8 was gr8! But also a very good idea for a top ten, bravo DT team!

[@crucial800]

One of my favorite top tens! As a designer this list is a great help!

[@2kenmon591]

Even though i don't understand all the things they discuss, i like the way they talk with each others, so friendly. keep it up :))

[@Boomerang161286]

Saw this video when it first came out and rewatching it now 2 and half years later... I'm still mind-blown by Zee's #2 🤯 that's such an amazing advice!

[@miniongames]

You guys did a very good job here. I agree with all your lists. Well done. Designers, you should listen. We preach these all the time in my facebook design group and in my blogs. Thanks for the video!

[@MrMcscramble]

IMPORTANT: Vanilla is my favorite flavor of ice cream. I do not think there is a single flavor that compares to it. It has a fullness or weight to it that the other flavors don't offer. Chocolate bland. Strawberry (i would have gotten a shake if i was interested). But vanilla carries a full weight liken unto ambrosia. :)

[@Mentat1231]

Totally agree. Vanilla us awesome.

[@ShrewdWarrior]

Mine too ... or more specifically, vanilla bean.

[@kommodore6691]

Christian Abbott Yeah chocolate is overdone and more "vanilla" than vanilla is at this point. Triple chocolate with chocolate chips and chocolate syrup ice cream etc., the stuff they come up with just combines into bland sugar overload as there is no contrast of flavours. Quality vanilla is still rated very high for me as well.

[@Uncle_Yam]

French Vanilla all the way!

[@cthulwho8197]

It's Vanilla all the way down.

[@ninajiron5488]

I watched this video a while back. And I was thinking about this today. . . One thing designers need to STOP doing is creating games that ONLY WORK FOR 2, 3, OR 4 PLAYERS. PLEASE create games that work well for 5 OR 6 PLAYERS. 5 or 6 player games are REALLY NEEDED!

[@benanderson46]

Good games don't work at that player count. You need to stop inviting 5-6 players over unless you own 2 tables.

[@ninajiron5488]

@@benanderson46 Do you know or understand my situation? It's a FAMILY of five gamers.

[@Ec7soccer]

#4 Adding dumb 'Shout this!' rules So how do you feel about Mag Blast Laser Noises on Fire? With the rule of missing if you forget to make the noise?

[@chrishuffman4781]

Best Top 10 I've ever heard. I would have loved to hear some specific game examples to fully understand your choices. Sounds like you were dodging any game names. I'm sure the designers would agree with most of your points. Thank you

[@dfreidin]

My uncle usually goes for vanilla ice cream for dessert. Sometimes with raspberries. 99% of my family are chocoholics, and we don't understand him at all, but I guess it's more chocolate for us.

[@nataliejohn4243]

So I’m late to the game getting into board game KZbin, and just watching this, but as someone who is working on some ideas, this was both very helpful and reaffirming of some things I’d been thinking. Much appreciated. (Especially the tip about not starting a publishing company / self publishing - I’d been feeling like that’s the thing to do and I’m honestly relieved it’s not).

[@DarrinSK]

I really do not mind people "stealing" ideas for mechanics. If a mechanism works and works well, it SHOULD be part of everyones tool kit now.

[@Proximityillusions]

So many times during this video I wanted someone to tell the designer, "Just save it for the expansion." Whether it be a variant, more components, more rules, or more mechanisms -- "Save it for the expansion."

[@zvonk2480]

I love your comment that designers need to stop making thier own companies. This leads me to some followup questions: "How should an aspiring designer approach a publisher?" "Which publishers are more willing to work with a new designer?" and "What parts of your game need to be completed before talking to a publisher? Will they hire artists, construct components, or even playtest your game further?"

[@newtsmelt5415]

Regarding telling people not to try and design and publish: While I understand why you are saying it (since most will fail), if no one tried it those exceptions to the rule would not exist.

[@arakuss1]

I agree. The vast majority of designers ideas are rejected. Doesn't matter if their game is good or bad. In the end best advice it to try, try again and play test your game to death. If players like it they will play and buy it no matter if its just another zombie game and it will become the exception to the rule. After all if its good its good. Who cares if its like another Mars game.

[@Lord_Brocktree]

Good tips! In the middle of development of a card game right now and this list both challenged and gave encouragement for me that I am heading the right direction. Thank you guys!

[@Lexicondiablo]

Publishers decide what the budget is for artwork, not the designer. Artwork doesn't start with the designer because few designers have £5000 in their pocket to forward fund a unique deck of cards. 90%+ of a designers play tests will be carried out with 'mediocre' artwork. That's a sensible expedience to prevent wasting money on an artists time spent on redundant aspects of the game.

[@noralockley8816]

That is all too true. I designed all the artwork to a client who was making a card game. I first sent just sketches so they could play test their game. Waiting for me to finish the art and printing up full color versions to demo to people would costed them a ton of money. It also proved how good their game design was. Playtesters were not blinded by the pretty art and loved the concept. Art when done was displayed on their website for those interested to critique for final changes. Surprising some of the feed back wanted the art work scaled back on certain components and simplified. Yes sometimes the simple black and white (which it had different colors not black and white) is works better for function. lol

[@BenjaminsToybox]

Thank you so much! I was inspired to try and create a tabletop game during this quarantine. So happy to hear (based on these lists) that I am doing a few things right, as well as wrong!

[@arcubal]

First, I hope you guys and your loved ones are safe and okay after Irma. Second, thanks for the tips. I mean it. There are a few notes I made as I go into designing and developing serious games for health and prejudice reduction. The comment about finding a publisher I like, because I was playing with the idea of doing all the work myself, and although I'm a graphic designer, game enthusiast and artist there is still a lot that I can't do by myself (nor would want to). Finally, I'm waiting for you three to design a game yourself. Seriously! It would be really, really interesting (even as a vlog series) to see what you would come up with. Between theme/rules feedback loops to not rolling for movement/actions, I would LOVE to see this zombi...I'm mean Monopoly-lik...I mean truly unique game look like. Good luck, and again, thanks!

[@DarknessProphet]

Something I'd add to the list is: Consistency in terms. I've played so many games that are inconsistent in terms, therefore messing up rules. War of Whispers for instance, sometimes uses "any region" and other times "region it controls" or even "controlled region" to all indicate the same thing. As a result, we first thought there was a difference (any = uncontrolled as well), but there isn't meant to be a difference. We ended up dumping the game due to endless rules discussions as a result of inconsistent terms.

[@lucario719]

30:56 yes, unflavored ice cream exists. I used to work at a steak and shake, they use unflavored ice cream as the base of milkshakes and squirt in the flavor rather than buy and transport dozens of flavors of ice cream just to make milkshakes. It tastes like frozen milk on its own.

[@chadgoings6336]

Tom, on # 2, what if you graphic design and your an artist, designing a board game? Couldn't I just have someone else print it? Or should i be asking someone to take over my original idea, then me do the set up? I enjoy the graphic design/set up portion. And board games don't breathe, you can't feed them but could you not have a favorite.? I feel that each game made would be a work of art just as much as a video game or painting or sculpture.

[@paulgower4594]

I think Talisman is popular despite having roll and move because a) 6 tends not to be 6 times better than a 1 in this game. You're not generally racing to anywhere. Sometimes the 1 is the number you'd prefer over any other. b)After you've rolled you have meaningful choices with what to do with the roll. At the basic level, you need to compare the option clockwise or the option counter-clockwise. - but also which space gives you the better chance of something good next turn. I know the game has dated some and I'm biased by nostalgia reasons, but Talisman's roll and move doesn't produce variance anywhere near as disastrous as many implementations of the mechanic.

[@dancondonjones]

Pretty much what I wanted to say.

[@pooyaostadpour2787]

Monopoly is also popular. Being popular isn't equal to being a good mechanics in a game. And it's not always a matter of die. When there's a chance of always not gaining anything, because of that chance and nothing else, then that's a bad mechanism. If in Talisman the 1 is the better one, nothing has really changed about the fact that die is choosing your faith. It's not adding randomness, it's THE randomness. If you have something to remediate that, that'd be cool. If you have the choice of not rolling that die, that'd be cool. But if you should roll each and every turn and you might roll the unlucky one, that's not cool at all.

[@cthulwho8197]

Sheriff of Nottingham strikes me as a game where the playtesters were all of one mind. It's as if no one had even considered not lying. The game seemed to assume that everyone would always try to smuggle contraband through, and when it was released and people pointed out that you could win most of the time by just dealing in legal goods the designers were like "Huh, who knew". Hence the expansion which really ups the rewards from smuggling goods.

[@36VZ]

I thought I was the only one who felt this way!

[@marcussousa1308]

The designer agrees with you, but the publisher changed the rules...

[@vladimirbajic9439]

I haven't played Sheriff of Nottingham, so I do not know if there is a meta game involved. If the majority of the players lie and smuggle but get caught, probably someone trading legal goods can win. But my question is this: If majority now starts dealing in legal goods, can someone cheat the system by occasionally smuggling? Perhaps the phase where everyone cheats is just the beginning, and real game starts to happen when most of the players start trading the legal goods?

[@36VZ]

There is a meta game to it, exactly what you described but the payoff for trying to bring in contraband doesn't make sense mathematically. I feel like even if you get only busted 20% of the time, you'll still be worse off point wise than when bringing in the legal goods only.

[@wh3elson]

Zoran Vujcic sorry but this doesn't make sense. If at the end of the game you have 100 chickens vs 100 chickens + 20 contrabands the contraband wins. Instead of smuggling 4 chickens, you smuggle 4 chickens and a crossbow the contraband guy wins

[@shauneger3968]

Tom, for your point on number 2 regarding starting a game company. What about for someone who is going the self published game via kickstarter. Would it not be better to have or be an entity, both for professionalism from the consumer standpoint, and protection for yourself as the seller?

[@alan4043]

Which game were they talking about when they mentioned the zombie game wasn't enjoyable without the kickstarter exclusives?

[@eddieb8054]

Thanks for the Mr T picture!!!! He is amazing!!!!

[@corradomorgana]

why is there a picture of my modular synth?

[@matthewcarrellful]

what would be an alternative to rolling for movement and actions?

[@derwoodbowen5954]

One of the few games where rolling for movement actually works is Titan, which no one bothers to play anymore anyway. But rolling for movement and/or actions can make turns very swingy unless there is a way to mitigate bad rolls. If you are going to have variable movement, have a reason for it.

[@arakuss1]

I think it would be informative if the Dice Tower would do a video of what the process of game design is like. From designer to publishing. Much of what they are complaining about is actually in the hands of the publishers after they agree to publish a designer s game. They should also interview game designers and their publishers. I think this would be more useful to future game designers. From what I have read from game designers their games are sometimes rethemed and mechanics changed by publishers.

[@dorpth]

STOP only including one reference sheet in your game. So many games slow down because players have to keep passing around the one reference sheet for consultation. Whatever the max number of players is for a game, include that many reference sheets.

[@mikaeki5245]

I liked it better when you sat in a straight table, like you used to. You spent more time talking to the camera than each other, which in my opinion showed your expressions better (also of those who were waiting) and made a stronger connection with your viewer (like I was the fourth in your panel).

[@stillbuyvhs]

@59:26 It's easy to understand, & making a game easy to understand is half of good design. If randomized movement distances were intrinsically bad, the mechanism wouldn't have survived since prehistory. It's also culturally independent; every culture, from the Americas to Asia, has some variant of Luck or Parchisi.

[@Swayzee68]

Yes, those long games! It is so difficult to find people who are willing to play those with me. I don't even like the ones that go more than two hours. One exception recently is Terraforming Mars. As it went on, it got more exciting. And the rules were simple enough that we were able to learn it quickly as we went. I love the games Scythe and Agricola, but it takes about an hour to teach people the games and then they're playing for another two or three hours. And then they never want to look me in the eye again when I mention a game night. It's just too long and there is too much happening. I bet they could have been honed down a bit. So now I end up playing them solo a lot. Too much. :(

[@invaderjay]

I know this video is 3 years old now, but I was wondering about the copyright thing. What about characters in your game? Should they be copyrighted if there's a decent amount of time and effort put into the design, backstory, etc. or is that also a waste of time? Just curious, the mechanics bit makes sense to me, but I still think characters might be a good idea to copyright no?

[@invaderjay]

Also, Monopoly is an example of a game that was indeed stolen even after it was patented. Though I'm guessing this is less likely to happen these days.

[@buddygalletti]

5 choose 2 indeed equals 10 :) nicely done Tom. I'm excited to talk math with you on the cruise

[@allluckyseven]

Sam (which I guess is who edited this vid): Tom's #9 should read "copyrighting". Copy right, the right to make copies... Great Top 10, btw. This is really something that, I'd say aspiring designers, but no, pretty much every designer, new to the field or not, should see.

[@coreymayo8321]

So nice to see something other than a bookshelf of board games behind you guys. (#1 thing boardgame reviewers need to stop doing.)

[@Bajicoy]

This is going down in my books as one of my favorite videos from you guys, very well done haha

[@juliegrossman8430]

A very entertaining discussion, young fellows. I found nothing to argue against in it until the relationship between dice rolls and game actions came up. It may not be the best way to echo 'friction,' as in a wargame, but it can introduce a 'proxy fiction,' that may be close enough, in a wargame context, ore in other contexts. In real life, you can't do everything all at once, but you must allocate resources: time, substance, and energy. E.g., if a play queues up his intended actions in a turn, and executes those in sequence, rolling after each action to find out whether that action had been his last action in a (phase? turn?), that mechanism might serve. In that mechanism, the action that is next in the queue doesn't happen, for lack of . . . time, substance, or energy. I do agree that it's maddening to roll first, then choose which action(s) to take, or to see how far you got on your trek. That's a wrong-headed mechanism that should be lost.

[@nihlify]

Gloomhaven: Jaws of the lion had some of the tendencies of Tom's and Zee's #1. Don't know if that's the case in the main game, but it did irk me a little when the rulebook said "the players get to decide" about a couple of things.

[@KyriosHeptagrammaton]

11:00 No feedback loop between theme and mechanism is a great one. Gotta relax and let myself do that.

[@patrickc9046]

I wish you guys had examples of games that fit your list items. I needed more context for your list. Thanks for making the top 10s.