Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Why Rhaegar and Lyanna Suck

[@Xaviar_St.Thomas]

Savage This channel is 100% Savage!! It gives zero f#% 's

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

we call it how we see it

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Hahaha that’s right!

[@Xaviar_St.Thomas]

The Order of the Green Hand That fact can never be disputed. You definitely call it ! Just completely SAVAGE !!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Haha! We are def going to need to call the banners for this one.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Your comment Ser, deserved to be pinned to the top. Especially that last line.

[@SirBuffaloKnight]

I feel like Elia Martell is just one of the most mistreated characters in all of ASOIAF. Like no matter how people paint it, Elia Martell got the short stick in whatever game Rhaegar was playing.

[@SirBuffaloKnight]

Though I agree with the Dornish being more open about infidelity and maybe she didn't care as much about him seeking another women's bed, I do think it still puts her in a precarious situation. Also, he knew how his father was. It wasn't a secret. So he left his other two children and his wife for years in the care of his slowly maddening father to be with a woman he barely knew. At the very least, he could've looked out for her safety even if he didn't love her the way he loved Elia. You also bring up a fantastic point that I didn't think about. Lyanna and Rheagar was in Dorne. There's no way that the Martells wouldn't have known with how connected Doran Martell is. People also forget there was a Dayne and a Martell in the Kingsguard at the time. I also wish the Dorne plot was good. As of now, they kinda pretended like the whole backstory with Elia didn't exist or that it did have any consequences.

[@L0wallyn]

The way she died after being raped is even sadder.

[@thefictionalguy5130]

Totally What happened to her is tragic. Lyanaa on other hand insulted her by naming his son Aegon when elia's son already had the name Aegon

[@chaimae3652]

@@stephaniesnitily1734 bcz we didn't have a POV of him in Grrm books . Rhaegar was already dead and he paid for his actions . The lannisters didn't .

[@chaimae3652]

@Liz Lee Love has nothing to do with Elia's chaming in harrenhal . Even if she didn't love him she wouldn't accept to be disrespected in public.

[@jreese7436]

Possibly the strangest part of the fandom ive met so far; the people who think Elia would have been ok with him running off because shes Dornish. No words.

[@thebooky161]

Rhaegar humiliated & disgraced (a possibly pregnant) Elia in front all of Westerosi nobility, her friends, her family, her future subjects- in an act so cruel, it would make the history books- when he crowned a fourteen year old betrothed Lyanna. He impregnated his fragile wife (who has been stated to have been a lovely, kind, gracious woman) when she was still recovering from her first disasterous pregnancy & then left her when she was one hair from her deathbed from giving him his heir, his second kid in two years. He ran off with Lyanna for a YEAR & fucked around in Elia's homeland while Elia & their children were taken hostage by his insane father. He left her with no protection so she could bear witness to the slaughter of her children before she was raped & physically split in two but protected his mistress with three Kingsguard, in a tower away from the war. Lyanna hated Robert because she thought he'd cheat on her but ran off with a married father of two, while his wife was still in her sickbed. Her brother & father died because of her foolish stupidity (or maybe just selfishness). In the show she grinned like a fool as Rhaegar annulled his marriage & bastardized his kids for her, named her son a Targaryen name even after Rhaegar went out to fight a war against her own brother & oh, that name was the name of Elia's son who had just been smashed against a wall because of the chain of events she & Rhaegar set off. Thousands died, their families & friends included, for their shitty love story. It's built over the dead bodies of Rhaegar's wife & kids but some people still wanna call these selfish, astonishingly stupid & seemingly cruel people the big romantic couple of ASOIAF.

[@allyriastark3508]

thebooky161 Elia was pregnant with Aegon after the Tournament ended she gave birth to Aegon - that makes everything more horrible imo

[@mrmaat]

This is GRRM’s grand subversion of the cliched chivalric romance. The valiant knight winning the free-spirited girl that leads to all manner of evil instead of love ever after.

[@KingMonkeyII]

Not convinced they ran off to Dorne. Stayed in Winterfell, Ned knew or found out and the entire Tower of Joy story is a load of shit????????????????

[@allyriastark3508]

KingMonkeyII that's possible because of the Bael the Bard story about a foreign king and a Stark maiden

[@Glockler]

If doing so was necessary to birth the child who would save the world does any of that matter?

[@davidsong582]

maybe Eddard cries at Lyanna deathbed because he realized that his sister is a awfully preson

[@riripari2042]

The person she died giving birth to also had his life ruined by her. Ned had to make some hard decisions and Jon had to live a life being seen and treated as a bastard.

[@lonestarwolfentertainment7184]

@@riripari2042 R+L=J has no place on this channel.

[@slayerofcrusadersandsmallh6404]

Lol

[@ChocolateRuko]

LMAO

[@thngvbts5182]

@@riripari2042 the awful part is that no matter what Jon would have been a bastard. there's no way Rhaegar would have been able to annul is marriage and have is new one with Lyanna approve, they would have needed the approval of the high septon and the king and they had neither

[@sharkdentures3247]

I'm reminded of a bit of dialogue from the TV show 'Bones' "Didn't it bother you at all that you were destroying a family?" "We were in love." "OH! 'Love', I'm sorry, now it's a happy story." Love can be great and beautiful. But so much fiction & stories happen because of stupid, selfish love.

[@autumnlover5784]

Patrick Nolan which storyline was this?? Been a while since I watched all million episodes of my beloved Bones???

[@lelouche25]

Yes, very good! Fuck Rhaegar for this

[@anthoniquebethley9711]

This quote is from Bones - Mother & Child In The Bay . I'm also thankful George R. R. Martin wouldn't ever dream of doing anything so stupid in the books.

[@orthodoxtheosis]

Romanticism has utterly destroyed what love actually means

[@lelouche25]

Lyanna: Love is sweet Ned, but it cannot change a mans nature. Also Lyanna: Robert would never be faithful to me. Also Lyanna: Ima run away with a married man with children. YOLO

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

that comment slipped by me but it’s absolutely hilarious

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

To be fair, ir hasn't been confirmed yet (in the books) that Lyanna ran away. If she did, well.... As a great man once said "...you get what you fucking deserve!" 😂🤣

[@Sienisota]

That's why I think Lyanna didn't perhaps run off intending to hook up with Rhaegar. She might've been pissed with her betrothal, and wanted to run off to Dorne to dodge it. With Rheagar, known for being "noble and fair" offering her an escort? It didn't necessarily seem dangerous to her, since the prince had already assisted her in hiding her rebellious actions as the Laughing Knight. Only for her to then be completely alone with a Prince who was accustomed to getting what he wants, believing Lyanna was destined to give him his third child. Rhaegar escort was loyal to him. She would give Rhaegar that child, whatever she wanted it or not. I'm sure Rhaegar sweetened the pot by being very nice and friendly... But how much of it was actually Lyanna's choice, we will never know, unless Brad uses his magic to literally witness an assault through eyes of a bird in a window. Rhaegar gives off the ultimate nice guy psychopath/sociopath vibes: He seemed so pleasant and nice to everyone who speaks of him. But his proven actions show a completely different person than what he wanted people to see.

[@cjpeterson2530]

Laynna “Robert will never hold to one bed”. Rhaygar “Hold my ale”

[@slimax4294]

Lyanna "robert will never hold to one bed" Also Lyanna "hey, that married rhaegar dude looks pretty hot"

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

hahahahahaha omg thats hilarious

[@sophiawilson8696]

statement he only lie ONE OTHER BED

[@allyriastark3508]

Sophia Wilson and? He is still a cheater

[@cjpeterson2530]

Exactly, that is what makes Lyanna a hypocrite. She said she didn't think Robert would keep to one bed and we are meant to think that is her reason for not wanting to be with him, but apparently she just didn't like Robert because she was perfectly willing to run off with MR. Silver Hair Pretty Song. On a serious note, I think that GRRM has to give us a piece of the story that will shed some light on why she was willing to run off with a married man, as it seems more and more likely now that she was not in fact abducted, but went along willingly.

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

Is like people think of lyanna as a strong female role model for running of with rhaegar and of rhaegar as a hero and model man for "letting lyanna scape her family expectations" and they forget about ellia who they were cheating and leaving in kingslanding in a dangerous situation unlike lyanna who had 3 trusted kingsguards, and who do they live with her Jamie the newbie they didn't trust, oh how kind of rhaegar to say to a teenager protect my wife and children

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

True Love he also hates stannis, maybe he's not so disgusted but ned no I don't think he was attracted to his sister he was more connected than with Brandon who was also spoiled rotten by Rickard she was his sister and his father probably told them to protect her also he probably admired her freedom and she was more honor bound like Brandon.

[@newperve]

Also what would have happened if the men had tried to escape their family obligations? Like on the battlefield? Would they be hailed as strong characters.

[@SilasLa218]

It’s hilarious too, because the fandom used to argue that Rhaegar and Lyanna had to do it, to create Jon, the Prince Who was Promised, who would bring the dawn. And then Dumb and dumber had Arya be the Prince, and Jon did nothing, so Rhaegar and Lyanna had no excuse. They are just selfish idiots. Hahahahaha

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

That being said, R+L is still a theory. Screw Dumb&Dumber, old man George hasn't released jack since Dance (not counting F&B and others) 11 years ago.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

Arguably she wouldn't be since the prophecy didn't include killing the knight king.

[@bondrewdthedad2188]

Poor Ned. His world turned upside down because of Lyanna's selfishness.

[@davidsong582]

because of this he NEED to marriage cateyln

[@user-mr1zy4nu7l]

I blame Rhaegar more tbh he was a grown ass man

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

And poor bastard, he then had to suffer the file Catelyn and Sansa with their delusional dreams about marrying into 'House Baratheon' haha.

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

@@user-mr1zy4nu7l I place the blame equally, assuming that Lyanna went willingly ofc

[@CatotheE]

@@BruhMoment-mn9kn Why do you think that Catelyn and Sansa were delusional?

[@SpydeTJ]

Elia Martell deserved better

[@samuelcox4353]

Yes

[@bodiesofwater9629]

She deserved so much better.

[@jamesarockiaraj6390]

She died cause of a man's stupidity. I feel very sad for her honestly:(

[@arawn1061]

James Arockiaraj she died becuse Rheagar was horny

[@jamesarockiaraj6390]

Aron Johansson that's true .Elia was a good honest woman. Then that bastard ran after a wolf which was horny as well. I can't understand how rhaegar and lyanna are the best couple .. to me they are bastards who made half the realm bleed for their sex.

[@ajvanmarle]

The funny thing about Rhaegar is that lots of people praise him as this wonderful person, but nobody ever gives an example of him doing anything good. Barristan talks about how he would sing on street corners and then give away the money he earned, but seriously, it's not like he needed the money. Rhaegar appears to have been a narcissist. He just had to be the center of everyone's admiration.

[@diegosotomiranda4107]

He was just the "charming Prince" of its world, the fact that we dont have His pov helps that View, basically was the textbook Prince that girls like Sansa dreamed to marry

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

Keep in mind, Barristan was the lickspittle (honourable and highly skilled, but still a lickspittle) of the Targaryens. Of course he would butter up the dude, when talking about him to the man's sister Daenerys.

[@JayV98]

​@@BruhMoment-mn9kn He was the only one that really knew him.

[@ali--zay897]

I usually give Lyanna a pass because she was a child "in love". Most probably, like Sansa was with Joffrey (though Sansa was 11 and Lyanna was 14). However, "Lyanna the badass" fans, who are usually Arya fans too, constantly deride Sansa for being selfish for wanting to marry Joffrey while Lyanna's "wilfulness" is regarded as "cool". Reason: Lyanna was similar to Arya in personality, so a tomboy can get away with murder and Sansa, since she is an "empty headed" girly girl, is responsible for everything. Come to think of it, Lyanna and Sansa have a lot of parallels too. Rhaegar, all things considered, was a douchebag and deserved to be thrown in a gutter. Sorry.

[@surtur9861]

Lyanna will only chastise a man for not keeping to one bed if her own bed is not the one being favored, it seems. I never considered that angle before. Then again, i never gave Lyanna Stark much thought. If you guys got it right and she really is Aegon`s mother, perhaps it`s a blessing she died before she could have anything to do with his upbringing.

[@shayaankhusro4104]

Lyanna x Rhaegar, a surprisingly worse love story than Twilight.

[@rodrickhatton8636]

Finally...after all these years we've seen what we thought was impossible.

[@dekuuchiha9990]

I don't think it's a bad story myself. I'm sure alot of wars were started to due to love.

[@lonestarwolfentertainment7184]

Edwin Black that does not make it a good thing

[@riripari2042]

And pretty alike too. Edward and Bella's love produced a child which led to a war with the wolf pack and later with the Volturi. Then said kid turns out to be the future lover of a grown man.

[@eowyn-faramir-reads]

Don't disrespect Twilight like that. 😣🤣🤣🤣

[@brendanfechter4889]

Lyanna WAS a child tho, Rhaegar a grown man. She could play that innocent card but clearly she is a bad person.

[@Abshir1it1is]

You guys have quite the talent for cutting throught he bullshit. A breath of fresh air in the fandom. It troubles me how many people see this as a beautifully romantic story. A fanstasy Romeo and Juliet... except that's hardly a couple worth idolizing. Still, the most interesting thing in the video was the commets about Robert. That she broke him. Condemned him to a crown he never wanted and a wife he could never love and who murdered him to protect the man that SHE loved and the kids she bore for him. I honestly never thought of it that way. I saw him as a drunkard and a braggart, a whore of a man that wants for nothing but wine, women, and bountiful adoration. I completely missed the path that led him there, the stark contrast between the young man who battled on the Trident to save his beloved fiance and the fat one who was gored by a boar while inebriated. It's... a genuinely tragic downfall of a man who could have been so much more. He deserved better. And Elia... poor Elia. We never hear much of her except for the tragedies she had to endure. Her humiliation, strugglies of birth, and her senseless death. God how I wish Oberyn had won that match. Given that poor girl just an ounce of justice. She, more than anyone, deserved far better. Fuck Raegar.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I'm not even convinced he would have strayed from Lyanna's bed...the man was head over heals in love with her...Elia is pure tragedy...she did nothing to deserve what she got

[@brettheselius4341]

Robert was a better king than he gets credit for. He is better than the Mad King, Joffrey and Tommen. Also probably a better king than Meagor, Aegon 2 ,3,& 4, and Daeron. There was no huge blunders while he was king. No heinous murders or lighting Innocent people on fire. No arming the faith or starting wars by beheading people. No needless wars even though he was a great warrior and wanted to fight. No legitimizing his bastards that made the realm bleed. He just overthrow a bad king and won then picked a good hand to help him rule. Robert also kept his vassals in line and when they rebelled they were swiftly dealt with. Even after he dealt with the rebels he only took wards and didn’t destroy any houses. The realm was at peace and plenty and as soon as he died it goes to shit. Who knows what kind of man he would have been if Lyanna lived. Good video.

[@RealChunka]

Good points Brett Heselius! Considering that he spent most of his reign partying and enjoyed a good fight, things could have been so much worse! He knew he was in over his head (in terms of ruling), so he chose good leaders to do the hard parts for him and got out of their way (usually)! I know a 21st century want-to-be ruler that can learn from him.

[@arawn1061]

Brett Heselius ok. The most important thing about Robert Baratheons reign that People must understand is just how scared the lords of Westeros were of Robert. The man who smashed the Targeryens. Collapsing a dynasti that had ruled for 300 years. The only One who wasnt afraid would be the half mad/Really stupid Balon Greyjoy. However Greyjoys defeat only cemented the fear of Robert Baratheon.

[@annthompson7064]

So let me get this right, you feel that lyanna should of just accepted the fact that she was basically chattle to be sold to whoever her father decided, instead of being able to choose who she wanted to be with. So it's her fault her father and brother made the bad decision to demand her back from a king they new to be insane, you don't think they're responsible for their own decisions, they had to get their property back and their only option was to go talk to a crazy king instead of trying to track down lyanna to find out what was going on. According to you it's completely the dumb broads fault her family made dumb decisions. It's also her fault that Robert had to start a war because that's the only option when someone doesn't want to marry you, you must go to war. How typical blame a young girl for the decisions grown men make because they saw her as nothing more than property. I don't think lyanna and raegar made good decisions either but what the men then decided to do were their own choices and decisions

[@BucketThinkTank14657Nerd]

Robert deserved better Ellia deserved better Brandon deserved better Rickard deserved better Ellia's children deserved better Lyanna and Rhaegar only work if the idea is that Rhaegar is just as mad as other Targaryaens and he kidnapped Lyanna, otherwise they are the worst kind of people in Westeros. Those who they haven't killed directly as a response to their actions (Ellia, Brandon, Rickard, Ellia's children) are left shells of their former self (my boy Robert). Congratulations Jon, your parents may not be the worst in ASOIF, but they are just as bad as some of them. Oddly enough, they're like Jaime and Cersei in this light.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Omg I couldn't agree more! I actually said the same thing about Robert the other day (being a shell of his former self). She destroyed that man.

[@BucketThinkTank14657Nerd]

I love Robert Baratheon, he's such a great character and he wasn't perfect, far from it but I always felt that his faults in the book were due to depression. In the books he talks about how he wants to be a sellsword, doesn't want to be king and how he was so alive before taking the throne. Now he's stuck in a job he doesn't want, in a loveless marriage, with kids he probably knows aren't his, surrounded by people who just say yes to him knowing that he won the war but still lost because he couldn't save the woman he loved. I'd drink and whore a lot too honestly.

[@dremarley4388]

Sir Arthur Dayne The Sword of the Morning deserved better too. Rhaegar should of had all his best fighters at the Trident instead of at the Tower of Joy.

[@arawn1061]

Dre Marley lol he should have His best fighters protect His wife

[@nss1250]

lol robert was womanizer and brandon was brutal to his sister and finally and the worst rickard and jon arryn were plotting to put robert on the throne they were stupid traitors and power hungry

[@szymonitaherrero9737]

YEES, finally someones talkin sense, instead of romanticizing this toxic and cliche love story. Hated them always. For me Lyanna is a selfish spoiled dumbo. But I believe that a lot of information is yet to be revealed in the books, we still don't know much. I think that this big love stuff is just a myth, prophecy sounds more plausible to me, surely something magical is going on here, r&l definitely had more to hide than birth of some bastard ( N+A=J forever)

[@camrn_brian]

“The dragon must have three heads” is probably just something someone said after seeing the first draft of house Targaryens sigil.

[@BoxStudioExecutive]

I wonder if they said something similar after the first draft of the Roman coat of arms..."The eagle must have two heads!"

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

BoxStudioExecutive That's the Byzantines not true Romans

[@Whosaskin]

"This dragon is cool and whatever, but could you give it three heads? "

[@nomad1639]

@@malekiththeeternityking5433 And how do you figure that? When they literally were romans who were not conquered? Especially since being roman is more complicated than that just being in the italian peninsula because of hundreds of years of holding the mediterraneans territories and considering many emperors in the empire have not been "true" romans and the misrepresentation of the fact that the eastern half of the empire was dominantly greek and because the east was more populated and had more trade, most of the empires population did not speaks latin anyways even though it was required many still spoke greek especially the upper class as greek was kept as a civilized language as was obviously its culture so how being greek roman not roman? Even though it was the greek romans who retook rome and kept it untill the pope broke away as the catholic church.

[@lonestarwolfentertainment7184]

A lot of people use the whole “she was being forced to marry someone she didn’t love” thing as an excuse, hello! Brandon didn’t love Catelyn but he was still going to do his duty as a member of House Stark, Ned was already in love and possibly already married to Ashara Dayne yet he still married Catelyn because it was his duty as the new Lord Of Winterfell even if it pained him greatly so why should she be excused from all of it?

[@jimsmith5250]

4 years later n this is still facts

[@JayV98]

Love is the death of duty. One thing I like about the series of that there's a common theme that bring "honorable" doesn't equal good. Fuck their duty. Wish they were more like the free folk.

[@adrienknox1127]

I about died when you called Lyanna a dumb broad. Classic.

[@jamesarockiaraj6390]

Any bad word would've been perfect for her . Cause she truly is a ****

[@annthompson7064]

James Arockiaraj So let me get this right, you feel that lyanna should of just accepted the fact that she was basically chattle to be sold to whoever her father decided, instead of being able to choose who she wanted to be with. So it's her fault her father and brother made the bad decision to demand her back from a king they new to be insane, you don't think they're responsible for their own decisions, they had to get their property back and their only option was to go talk to a crazy king instead of trying to track down lyanna to find out what was going on. According to you it's completely the dumb broads fault her family made dumb decisions. It's also her fault that Robert had to start a war because that's the only option when someone doesn't want to marry you, you must go to war. How typical blame a young girl for the decisions grown men make because they saw her as nothing more than property. I don't think lyanna and raegar made good decisions either but what the men then decided to do were their own choices and decisions

[@goldengail3418]

Ann Thompson She wasn't just chattle to be sold off, she was a lady. She had a responsibility and she refused to comply with it, by running off with a married man. You know, this same argument could be made for Elia Martell, of whom married Rhaegar not out of love, but for duty. Do you think that Elia Martell believed herself to be property to be sold off to whomever her mother (the Princess of Dorne) decided than? Because that was normal for people back than to do their daughters, Lyanna was not particularly special In this regard. Her family acted accordling, because she was promised to marry a man and Rhaegar basically shite all of it, and over his own marriage too.

[@nicovananda3893]

@@annthompson7064 i am sorry but i have to disagree with the lyanna has a right to married who she loves. 1. taking somebody that already has a wife or husband is an asshole thing to do no matter how many bullshit reason people will pull to justified that, i dont fucking care if its prophecy, religion that allowed it or anything, taking somebody else husband or wife is asshole and i hate it the core (this included polygamers because siriously that is just a justification of their lust) 2. when you are a king or a prince, you should think about your people. So what you want to have all the gold and the pleasure of being a noble or princess but piss out when its a little convinent for you? that is selfish bitch move that lyanna did 3. If she knows her brother then she should know what kind of man his brother is and the chain of event that will happend after her stupid bullshit 4. and what did she think will happend, even if her brother didnt go to the king landing and being killed by the king, the chain of event will resulted not far from what happend now. Robert will be pissed off and the stormland will chalenge the crown. The starks that already make an alliance deal with the baratheon will do the responsible thing and follow the stormland rebellion. The dorne that consist of sick, ruthless, plotting bastards that has a long history of waring and hating targeryon will hate either the crown or the starks and just split from the seven kingdom The vale that already has close conncection to robert and ned will never stand with the crown The riverrun that consist with oppurtunist bastards wont stand with a targeryon Plus not to mention rhagar gives the faith/The hightower that has been planning the death and extiction of the targeryon families for generations the best oppurtunity to wipe them from seven kingdom. When you are a princess of a noble house, all of this political information must be in your head when making a choice because you put your entire people on the line when a princess makes a stupid dumb mistakes. Rhaegar and lyanna desearves to die and they are stupid, cheating, egosentric selfish little bitch!

[@user-mr1zy4nu7l]

Ann Thompson In those days marriage(for highborns) wasn’t meant to be for love or happiness but for alliances between houses for both men and women for example Ned loved ashara Dayne yet married Catelyn for duty why didn’t lyanna do the same? rheagar and Lyanna are nothing but selfish cunts who decided to say fuck duty and responsibility and ran off and thousands died as result for their selfish desires

[@RankAnna]

Remember what Varys said to Oberyn in GOT season 4? He indirectly said he was glad not to have his genitals because he has seen what desire does to people and what it can do to a country. Great video ser and lady greenhand

[@allyriastark3508]

I will never understand why Rhaegar and Lyanna are seen as a love story when they didn't even interract on page, from Rhaegar's sibling herself we learn Rhaegar took Lyanna on sword point. Ned and Ashara, another couple on Harrenhall, are told to be in love by various people, including Ashara's own family, yet Ned and Ashara are hated as a couple instead.

[@AgentXA564]

Yeah, I've never liked Rhaegar and Lyanna myself. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy to the point where he was willing to start a war over it and Lyanna either didn't think about or didn't care about the consequences of her actions. I mean, sure, you don't want to be married to Robert, but is it really worth starting a war over?

[@arawn1061]

AgentXA564 Robert wasnt even that bad.

[@nss1250]

aerys started the war you didn't read the book

[@arawn1061]

nassim aliouche he probebly has Read the books. I have and everything he Said was true

[@finn-3976]

Well I blame rather Rhaegar than lyanna since lyanna was 14-15 at the time (I believe) and was just like today's 14-15 year old girls. She just went for the best looking guy around who also played an instrument and was a bit older than her. Sort of like a fangirl

[@abcdefghijklmnop2580]

Thank you , I was getting sick of seeing "rhegar was a true hero" theories on youtube and reddit .

[@dratheart]

Amen! This channel is the only place with ASOIAF stuff worth watching recently!

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

Rhaegar was a pedo

[@jamesarockiaraj6390]

Abcdefg Hijklmnop you can say that a thousand times my friend and I still despise rhaegar ;)

[@tru_targaryen4945]

I needed this. Lyanna talking about a how Robert would cheat on her - which he would've - but she went right after an already married and with children. Hypocrite? Yes. In the show, they really did run off together but in the books, we still don't know so I hope we get a clear answer in TWoW or ADoS. (Edit) Book-wise, I think Rhaegar just used her for his prophecy. Personal opinion.

[@newperve]

Hell even the idea that Robert would have cheated on her is doubtful. Sure he was a swinging single, that doesn't mean he'll cheat when he's married. It's not like Cersei where there is literally no love. Men have cleaned up their act for women they love in the past.

[@subarnosinha8042]

I disliked both of them, once I read the books (I read after I watched the show). Now I hate them and their followers even more coz "teh rebellion was built on a lie". Good video. Keep the good work up!

[@davidsong582]

Eddard never name his daughter Lyanna it is known

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Great point!!!

[@brendanfechter4889]

This nite be a pain thing tho. Neds too haunted by her memory and mindful 0f some "promise" and plain stone stupid 2 be hip

[@alienazed]

thankfully our Lady Mormont is the complete opposite of the previous beholder of that name

[@allyriastark3508]

I think that's because Lyanna was selfish, she still had the flower crown Rhaegar gave her but demanded she was burried in Winterfell along with the father and brother she caused to die.

[@macleunin]

I'm glad you did this video, I always thought the same about them! They had a cute love story, but it was incredibly selfish and irresponsible, that led to two wars, extinction of Great Houses, thousands of deaths and possibly millions of people affected and dislocated. Lyanna can be excused a bit for being a naive teenager falling in love for a Prince, but she should have known better. Rhaegar was a dick for cheating on his wife, abandoning his children and running off with an under aged girl. Yes, they both sucked

[@nss1250]

robert sucked worst

[@user-mr1zy4nu7l]

nassim al not as much as rheagar and lyanna

[@shannonromero6157]

I always thought Rhaegar and Lyanna story was too good to be true. Falling in love and such. George RR Martin doesn't make up story like that. Just Dumd and Dumder.

[@danielallen4450]

Did they really have a cute love story though? In the show, sure. But in the books? Probably a lot more complicated, given everything we know about Rhaegar

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

This was much needed in the fandom, thanks order of the green hand

[@annthompson7064]

They probably saved all life on this planet but you're right I'm sure they sucked,,,

[@simmerbard8307]

+Ann Thompson Sweetie....they destroyed all life in Westros.

[@christianguerrero70]

I thought i was the only one. After the reveal I was like "wtf?.. wait.. hold on this means thousands of lives were lost over two people who couldnt hold an oath?.. fuck these guys??"

[@LuanEevee]

Rhaegar you had ONE JOB, ONE DAMN JOB: don't. touch. a betrothed. Come on man! P.S. till this day I still miss good ol' Robert Baratheon, first of his name... "WHAT RHAEGAR TARGARYEN DID TO YOUR SISTER-- THE WOMAN I LOVED. I'LL KILL EVERY TARGARYEN I GET MY HANDS ON!"

[@arawn1061]

Huell Babineaux i Love this quote becuse Robert is actually a close targeryen relative.

[@creakychair9387]

"Robert will never keep to one bed ned" Cause the man you went with was very faithful?

[@ivanbluecool]

I never saw rhegar as a hero. If he was the father of jon. He lead to the starks losing most of thier family. At least send a message saying "decided to elope. Us banging will save the world"

[@KhukuriGod]

Plus Jon isn't all that bright either. He probably takes from his father, assuming R+L=J.

[@ivanbluecool]

KhukuriGod I see him more like ned as he sees the justice like ned and takes it into his own hands by beheading janos himself. Other people see him like a mini ned in thr books. Many like tyrion Cersie arya and even ned himself

[@ivanbluecool]

Liz Lee I like to think most visions are either lies or meant to be seen by someone else. Like blood raven gives some out to bran that may be true but bran needs to make it true by doing mental flips and others gets visions of others bad situations and perceive them as their own

[@moomimi]

ivanbluecool That letter tho. 😂

[@DarkMasterofCupcakes]

Honestly, even if you used the prophecy as an excuse for why Rhagar cheated on Elia (which is wrong no matter how you slice it), that still doesn't really justify him and Lyanna running off together and essentially starting a war as a result. If he really felt he needed a third child and couldn't get that from his wife, then couldn't he have just slept with any woman who wasn't already spoken for and gotten her pregnant? Even if the whole "Ice and Fire" thing was a factor (and considering he already seemed to have thought of his son Aegon with Elia as the Prince that was Promised, I'm not sure it was) and he felt that the mother needed to be Northern, I'd be amazed if there weren't any women in the North, highborn or low, who weren't both unspoken for, of an age to have children, and willing to sleep with the crown prince. And if Rhaegar had slept with any of them, would that have started a war? Honestly, considering it's well known that Robert had mistresses and illegitimate child following his own marriage, and historically with Aegon the Unworthy, I doubt it. Maybe if he'd brought the resulting child to King's Landing to raise, there'd be a scandal, but I don't imagine a full-on war would have broken out from Rhaegar just having an affair with someone else.

[@bgt2848]

“Robert would never remain faithful “ “OMG Reghar is leaving his wife for me that’s so hot!”

[@SeanLKearns]

Actually how it went. She's 14. He's the prince. Of course she would.

[@gooby214]

@@SeanLKearns Boo hoo. Zero empathy for her. It should've been her and her newborn Jon who got the Mountain, not Elia and her baby Aegon.

[@gooby214]

Lyanna's a disgusting putrid little hypocrite. She's overrated and absolutely unlikable and spoiled. Deserved a husband like Ramsay or as old as Walder Frey.

[@SeanLKearns]

@@gooby214 so youre mad that a 14 yr old didn't get raped?

[@SeanLKearns]

@@gooby214 so youre mad that a 14yr didn't get brutally raped and murdered?

[@markjrbessett6429]

I love this!! Rhaegar and Lyanna are THE WORST characters in all ASOIAF. They were so irrisposible and were the cause of all the bad shit that happened before, during and after Roberts Rebellion. They are the worst characters. I know without Rheagar having an affair with Lyanna there wouldnt be a story, but fans need to stop thinking that Rhaegar was a noble prince and Lyanna was an innocent flower child, they weren't, they were selfish and stupid.

[@Infamous1892]

I just dont like the fact that Rhaegar is haled as this great gallant warrior and Prince, but Robert Baratheon beat his ass on the Trident. It don't sit with me.

[@camanah7536]

Shawn Shaw Robert is a fucking BEAST tho dude. & Rhaegar has no love for combat. Not much you can do to defend against a fucking hammer neither.

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

Camanah Rhaegar was in clad plate armour had a horse a lance and the finest sword available along with a great shield. Robert was just the better fighter and he hated Rhaegar for raping his Lyanna

[@dremarley4388]

Sir Arthur Dayne should of been at the Trident to fight instead

[@DrowFighterMage]

Robert had a weapon that was useful against a heavily armored foe (a warhammer). Rhaegar allowed himself to face Robert too instead of hiding behind his men as he could have done. They were also on horse back in a river so Rhaegar wasn't as mobile.

[@RealChunka]

You can be a "great gallant warrior" and steal lose a fight. The two aren't mutually exclusive. All men must die.

[@bgt2848]

“Now that we’re married we should probably send a raven so everyone stops killing each other“ “No this is my special day I want this time to be just for us“

[@fightingmedialounge519]

That likely wouldn't help at that stage.

[@allsmiles1971]

I love you two! Y’all don’t get caught up in the hype of the masses. Keep telling the raw truth

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you Phoebe

[@18pablo88]

It's fancible

[@riripari2042]

I blame Raegar for this mess more than Lyanna though she had her fair share of responsibility in this whole mess. He was the handsome prince with the world in the palm of his hands so no doubt any woman would fall for him so he had no trouble sweet talking young Lyanna who was to be wedded to someone she didn't care for. She probably saw the whole thing as some sort of fantasy of star crossed lovers. That out of all the women in the kingdom the crown prince fell for her, forget his wife and kids. He probably told her it was a loveless marriage brought out of necessity and he'd make her his true queen. Then on the other hand you have Lyanna completely throwing her wits and honor straight out of the window to foolishly run away with the *married* prince to live out some sort of fantasy and run away from responsibility. Not caring what he family or the rest of the kingdom thought of it. She judges Robert for having a bastard yet here she is running off with a married man and ruining a marriage. Neither fully considered the consequences of their actions with running off like they did. Probably thought no one would take action because they were afraid to go against the prince.

[@jorgebersabe293]

And that's exactly why the Rhaegar/Lyanna fans romanticize It despite being a tale of abuse, grooming and manipulation: It's wish fullfillment for them, as is the medieval equivalent of a handsome, mysterious and attractive bad boy going for the plain, insecure and awkward girl, who conveniently is "not like the other girls" and who can fix him with the power of her "love."

[@ChocolateRuko]

@@jorgebersabe293 your comment is gold lol. both of them are terrible boring mary sues

[@chadsummerchild1120]

About time someone knocked Rhaegar off his high horse with a lance.

[@wisdommanari6701]

Queen in the North

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Hey girlfriend! Can you put me in touch with Preston, by any chance. Just caught part 2 of the schemes of the halfhand. Much appreciated. MaryEllen

[@abcdefghijklmnop2580]

QUEEN IN THE NORF !!

[@scottmerryman]

Chad Summerchild #barristan

[@armyofninjas9055]

Didn't the Moremont fellow already do that?

[@asongoffireandfly7911]

Finally someone taking the "young star crossed lovers" fantasy and showing it for the irresponsible act that really had no other possible outcome but war given the situation, the number of witnesses, and the character of those involved. Including Oberyn Martell was great too, considering how long he harbored his desire for vengeance.

[@markfrost9826]

I just love you guys. You need to do a special video of your hate mail. If you think you “triggered“ the fan boyz folks over “Catelyn sucks”.... get ready my friends. 😎

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We’re calling the banners as we speak.

[@strangewayshahaha156]

I liked his vid too. It makes your kingsguard theory make even more sense as Quorins actions in these chapters puzzled me.

[@strangewayshahaha156]

Posted this in the wrong place.It's meant to be a reply to your mention of Prestons schemes of the halfhand comment to Chad summerchild.

[@LoneWolf-xe6ye]

If your A+N=J Theory is true you gotta respect Ned honestly he has to break his heart by Marrying a woman he doesn't know instead of the one he loves then has to see horrible brutality in war lose a bunch of friends all because Lyanna couldn't keep her legs closed and even then he still helps her out and possibly have to kill his best friend when her son decides he wants to be the king.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Ned's story is incredibly tragic

[@LoneWolf-xe6ye]

The Order of the Green Hand Yup while Lyannas story is plain stupid I mean look at what happened to her this way she didn't want to marry Robert because of his whoring now despite what others might say that was a very good deal considering that in that time period most women were lucky to be on friendly terms with their husbands and didn't essentially get raped at their husbands will now I know Robert was a delusional fuck but he would have worshipped Lyanna like a god I mean years after her death he is still pissing and moaning about her and over time she could have changed him old habits die hard but they die all the same.

[@madambutterfly1997]

And no one truly knew Rhaegar. Jon Con and Barristan thoughts can't be regarded at all as the truth

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

Hasan Wilson in a show called bleach a man nmaed Azien said this "Admiration is the farthest thing from understanding someone"

[@ravenstrategist1325]

@@wolfsbanealphas617 *I think you meant "Lord Aizen" :)

[@arunsingla3452]

Especially barriston “the biggest yes man in game of thrones” selmy

[@kaffeestark4750]

Love the way you tell it straight up, Lady and Ser! I’ve thought this way about Rhaegar & Lyanna for a long time. I somewhat get why people romanticize them, but I don’t believe we’ve been shown by GRRM that they deserve it. They suck...at least until GRRM tells us different.🐺

[@Xxonfire1212xX]

Poor Robert...Damn, I really always enjoyed his character. His story was simply amazing, he was a great general and a man devoted to one woman who disliked him. He smashed the stormlords, defeated Jon Con and Rhaegar in single glorious combat...Only to be gutted by a boar. The feels man...The feels.

[@wayne47able]

He wasn’t devoted to one woman tho but that does not excuse her stupidity… But Robert was a pimp and let’s not act like he was not lol

[@mariyumabid7330]

Yeah apparently Lyanna didn't want Robert because he was a woamnizer but had no problem running off with a married man with kids..............

[@johnathankinne3998]

Rhaegar was a dramatic person. He had to be much less humble than he is said to be because he was so convinced that he was a prophecized legendary figure (because being heir to the 7 kingdoms wasn't enough) that he decided on a whim, well past the age boys begin training, to walk into the yard and become a badass amongst men who had been training and fighting much longer. That took resolve and conviction to get that good that fast. Then he thinks if its not him than it must be his son and since the prophecy has three in it, he has to have another child and that same resolve that made him walk into the yard and surpass everybody drove him to look for the perfect match of his own choosing, that same determination led him to organize the tourney at Harrenhal. He was single minded and obsessed with prophecy, which does make him a horrible person to a degree when it comes to the people around him, but he was also one of the people to see the first signs of the long night which means he must have been very open minded as well as intelligent and saw everything he did as a sacrifice to help prevent the long night. In fact, Rhaegar could have been the one who instilled the idea that "honor means no more than ones life and should be sacrificed if its for the good of the realm" into his kingsguard. Varys could even be hinting at the same idea from Rhaegar when he says he serves the realm. Nothing much is ever said about what kind of relationship Varys had with Rhaegar.

[@edi9892]

Helena of Troy looks cheap in comparison (when it comes to the damage that affair caused) It's kinda funny, kinda sad, but yet understandable that e.g. Ned still mourned her loss despite, although he should have known better.

[@emiliocamachoerice6380]

Frank Castle yes she was and made fall in love by her

[@annthompson7064]

Nothing you said made sence if Every thing they did and said was to benefit the average person. If John is the prince that was promised than nothing more needs to be said

[@jimsmith5250]

​@@annthompson7064??? The millions of people who died??? The horses that fell the children killed AND mother raped?? Two wars started oh and that leads to cercie and rob and Caitlyn and Ned who already had a lover....yet didn't run away like his sister who was the reason he had to marry Caitlyn since y'know she ran away which is the reason her father and brother died so Ned had to marry her??? Should Ned have run away too? Would that be ok? On top of that he took in her son after all that and raised him...that bitch is selfish and rhaegor is a fucking selfish pedo who is too blinded by prophecy to see his wife and two kids🤔 leaves them with the young knight Jamie whioe giving lyanna 3 of them?.... Dudes and asshole

[@thisguy8106]

Thank y'all for taking my thoughts and putting it into a video!!

[@Darksnovia]

For this reason alone is why I don't want these idiots being Jon's parents he deserves better than a bunch irresponsible people that caused the death of half a kingdom this is why I'm anti L+ R J until its stated in the books themselves not the show because that's fanfiction I will consider N+A=J Canon until it stated otherwise.

[@slimax4294]

finally someone is speaking out against the rhaegar and lyanna love story and the thought that what they did was right

[@RobertThompson1985]

And for this reason alone it's Ned and ashara equals jon

[@kuricosmos]

Here, here! Ned goes to great lengths to protect Ashara when he could have scapegoated her to protect Jon. The real great romance had to be circumvented because of Lyanna's selfishness, resulting in Ned having to marry his brother's betrothed instead.

[@josefboroff3966]

Don't forget how their actions lead to the Mad King almost setting King's Landing ablaze, which forced Jamie to do the unthinkable to stop him. Now poor Jamie will forever be known as an honorless bastard because of what these two did.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

good point

[@careyevans5126]

I keep telling myself that Rhaegar didnt necessarily love lyanna he just needed a 3rd dragon born in fire and ice which I actually think he wanted another girl. The 3 who conquered Westeros were Aegon, Raeneys and Visenya. Rhaegar needed the Visenya to complete the 3. I just feel that I need to point out that he only left with Lyanna Stark was for the 3rd Dragon. Also I cant be the only one who hated the fact that Lyanna named Jon aegon even though there was already an Aegon. I cannot describe how much I hate Lyanna Stark. She basically started a war and didnt leave Rhaegar even after hearing of Her father and brothers deaths. They hid her in the tower of Joy which is situated in Dorne which is just such a slap in the face I mean Elia didnt leave and hide in The north. I hate Rhaegar and Lyanna so much. So much for Stark honor. I also think that is ironic that Lyanna didnt want to marry Robert because he already bedded another girl yet she did the same fucking thing.

[@tehn3085]

YES!! Call them out!!

[@jennifera.4511]

Savage, I love this channel! The worst part of it all is that everybody idolizes Rhaegar and the stupid brat that was Lyanna, but no one cares about Elia Martell's side of the story. Everybody says right away that "nah it's nothing, Elia is dornish, dornish treat bastards a lot better than the rest of westeros, therefore it means they don't give a damn about infidelity or poliamory so she's encouraged all his BS". Holy crap, no! 1 - She was the sister of a dornish prince no one would swallow that insult; 2 - Rhaegar was married when he fled with Lyanna, but Oberyn and Ellaria never got married and she's fine being his paramour. So nope, no one can use Oberyn's marital status as an example to justify the glaring lack of sources on Elia's opinion of it. Do not mistake lack of sources with consent. 3 - as the old saying goes: in Rome, be roman. Aka if you're not in Dorne, you can't encourage your husband to get another woman because of a prophecy (a valyrian prophecy, I'll have you know, despite all the rivalry of valyrians and dornish), it's too risky for your life and your children, even if Elia weren't a player in that game of thrones, it's something that even she was smart enough to know. I still think she's the real victim and not a player of the game of thrones, not everyone needs to be cunning :/

[@alienazed]

i can’t fathom the way people romanticise these two. like?? to put it simple, in the books AND show it is stated that he married ELIA MARTELL and already had TWO kids with her, and we all know ONLY a king could annul a marriage (King Henry had to build his church for that) and this?? so much shame for this couple. i’d congratulate Robert for his victory at Trident. Robert, you’re doing amazing, sweetie!

[@allyriastark3508]

Scarlet I can't believe both Ned & Ashara and this couple met at Harrenhal but Ned & Ashara two young single people weren't allowed happiness because of these two run away... And the show also tell us children of R& Elia were named Rhaenys and Aegon and their horrible murder thorough Thoros when he talks about House Clegane being built on dead children sigh they erase innocent children and a woman from the show because they can't romantise R&L

[@alienazed]

allyria stark THATS IT!!!! this is such a huge stupidity coming from them-not only they caused Elia and her children to die, but they brought WARS to come! how many people died during Robert’s Rebellion? they murdered their Houses! and how many people left ‘tortured’ for the rest of their lives? Robert’s marriage cracked, Ned lying to everybody for the stupid promise, Viserys and Dany living like criminals, and eventually the infamous Game of Thrones among 9 Houses and more. i do not blame GRRM for this bc he hasn’t revealed anything yet of the annulment (yet it doesn’t change the fact that R is a moron), but i do say ‘WTF’ when i watched the show. really. as if underrating Sand Snakes and butchering Ellaria’s characters aren’t enough, now they cut ELIA, AEGON VI, and RHAENYS out of the story so this foolish RLJ could happen. personally i think it would be better if J stays as a bastard. but noooo :( anyway excuse me for the temper, talking about Elia always makes me lose it :(((

[@HolyknightVader999]

Rhaegar was a moron, and Lyanna was a deserter. The least Rhaegar could have done was OFFICIALLY propose to Lyanna and invoke the Targaryen custom of two wives-that would allow him to keep Elia Martell and add Lyanna to the mix, as well as keep the Starks happy now that one of their own will become queen. Or, here's a thought: he could have just lived his life like a real man and stayed loyal to his wife. There would be no rebellion, the Targaryen Dynasty would still be standing, there'd be no War of Five Kings because Robert won't drink himself into an early grave, and you'd have a united kingdom that can deal with the threat of the Others as a united front and not as warring fiefdoms. The only disadvantage for the Targaryens is that they won't get the dragon eggs from Essos, but considering all the pain and suffering caused during the Dance of Dragons, that may be for the best. Dragonglass (which is abundant in Dragonstone) and Wildfire can repel the Others and their minions, after all. Lyanna meekly submitting to Rhaegar against the wishes of her family, while not even writing a single letter to them indicating that she was just okay and she went with Rhaegar out of her own free will, is also stupid. She could have kept her hotheaded brother and father from walking to their deaths by just writing to them and telling them that she's okay and she's going to marry the crown prince. Robert Baratheon will be furious, but again, I don't think the Starks will balk at the chance of becoming royalty again, and they might even be persuaded to sign on with the Targaryens now that they're going to become part of the family. Really, everything wrong in ASOIAF is due to these two dumb lovebirds. It's like with Anakin Skywalker marrying Padme causing the fall of the Jedi Order and the Republic, except it was worse, because at least when Anakin joined Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, it was to save Padme and give a more stable government to the galaxy-a government which he expressly desired back in Attack of the Clones. He knew what he was doing. Rhaegar didn't. Rhaegar didn't mind that his actions would piss off an alliance between the Starks, Baratheons, Tullys, and Arryns, while Anakin at least realized that his actions will make him an enemy of the Jedi Order that he once fought for.

[@wisdommanari6701]

Yeah....No...see Maegor the crue tried to have two wife's and the faith rebelled against him. Kings and even lords can have Paramore and even keep where's but not have more than one wife. Aegon had two wife's but they were wed before the conquest. They were NOT married under the faith and Aegon Had Dragons!!! So the High Septom can only annul marriages in cases in infidelity or lack of heirs. This is Book Cannon. The show is shit.

[@HolyknightVader999]

The Faith Militant had been disbanded by then, hundreds of years ago. They had no army. What are they going to rebel with? Septons?

[@Abshir1it1is]

Besides, the Starks don't give a shit about Septons or their Seven. Martells wouldn't be happy, and I don't think the Starks would be as ecstatic as the OP claims, but if Raegar pressed for it, he'd have had a better time of it than Maegor. Robert might still rebel, the Rickard would still be ruling in the North rather than Robert's friend and could be placated into staying neutral. Lord Arryn would have a pressing need to join in the rebellion because Robert would be waging an offensive war rather than a defensive one. With the Tullys wed to the Starks, they'd join or refrain depending on Rickard's actions. The rest of the Houses fought against Robert in the first place and would have no reason to join him this time. So, long story short, the Faith have no army. The Starks could be placated. The other Great Houses have no reason to join, especially if they see it as a losing battle (Tywin/Doran). So if there was a rebellion over Raegar picking up a second wife, it'd be much smaller in scale and far easier to put down.

[@HolyknightVader999]

+Agent J My point exactly. Plus, the main reason Rickard married his son to the Tullys was to make the North stronger. He had ambitions. An ambitious lord would be ecstatic if his daughter wound up with the Crown Prince. That's every high lord's wet dream: to join the royal family in marriage.

[@BoxStudioExecutive]

Staying loyal to a wife where arranged marriages are the norm is a laughable concept both in the world of ASOIAF and in our own world.

[@sECUREij]

Nobody mentions that Lyanna is like 14 when she’s abducted by Rheygar. The dude was in his last 20s early 30s and kidnapped and probably impregnated a kid

[@gooby214]

Nobody mentions that because everyone in this whole universe does this. Victarion Greyjoy was supposed to marry and impregnate a 12 year old girl. Also, one of Robert's affairs included a girl around 14. The mother of the baby killed by the gold cloaks in the story

[@BestWayKilla]

Rhaegar crowning Lyanna at Harrenhal has to be the purest *[Everyone disliked that.]* moment in all of fiction.

[@stillsearching1284]

Rhaegar and Lyanna both suck. Rhaegar sucks the most. I feel so bad for Elia, the children, Rickard, and Brandon.

[@arawn1061]

Still Searching to be fair brandon was kinda an idiot

[@aka_Ingmar]

They are not only the reason for the entire Stark families demise, but basically the entire 7 kingdoms

[@Moeller750]

I guess Rhaegar and Lyanna is GRRM's way to subvert Romeo and Juliet, by exposing the star-crossed lovers as what they really are: dumb teenagers with no real understanding of the consequences of their own actions. I really hope WoW will have some scenes where we see Lyanna's stupidity and Rhaegar's self-absorbed arrogance clearly exposed

[@Zarola]

Glad you guys posted this though. I got a lot of shit about thinking Rheagar was an ass for annulling the marriage in the show. "Dorne has no problem with bastards, its okay tralalalalala" Elia was stuck in Westros where they give a lot of fucks about bastards. And he abandoned her and children with his well-known (Everyone KNOWS kind of well-known) crazy, rapist, schitzo, trigger happy father. Rheagar being her husband was what seemed to stay Aerys II from outright snuffing her himself and just keep her hostage over Dorne.

[@danielallen4450]

You say you want to hear about Oberyn's reaction, but the most important person's reaction is also kept silent; Elia.

[@JorraneRei]

When Paolo Puggioni was working on his piece of the Tourney of Harrenhal for TWOIAF, he mentioned that “a bit of the feedback I got” about the piece from GRRM included depicting Elia as “stiff-backed and trying to act as if nothing was wrong”. I think Elia realized that there was absolutely nothing she could do in that moment which would let her leave with her dignity; Rhaegar had completely obliterated that possibility by humiliating her in the most public manner, awarding the victor’s crown not just not to her, but to a 14-year-old already betrothed to someone else.

[@skylermaves7272]

Thank you, I've waited for someone to bring this up. Seriously these two had to have known that their actions would lead to war.

[@brendanfechter4889]

Oberyn was the one restraining Brandon sayin "let's have our revenge served cold for the dishonor done to our sisters." Brandon was too impulsive.

[@allyriastark3508]

Brendan Fechter Oberyn is hot headed too and he was pissed when he witnessed what Rhaegar did.

[@brendanfechter4889]

Ik I'm jokin. We don't know how he reacted or what if anything Oberyn did. That's why it's such a good question bc he'd def be heated

[@allyriastark3508]

Brendan Fechter I wish they beat the birdy boy in an alley

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@brendanfechter4889 I'm pretty sure Oberon is wasn't there at all.

[@Foralltosee1623]

Should rename this 'The Great Lyanna and Rhaegar Roast'.

[@MarilynRB]

Once again a not popular opinion, it’s f’ing honest! That’s why I love your channel; you stick to your gut and tell it for what it is. Thank you for keeping it REAL!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We just call things what they are. It’s amazing how angry it makes people. It’s almost as if people forget that we’re talking about fictional characters

[@Zarola]

I have heard of the Maester Conspiracy theory. I was wondering if the Maester is being truthful saying that Elia couldn't have more children. Or had a hand in why Elia was weak giving birth in the first place. Since the Maesters want Magic and Targaryean line finished, as per theory. Saying that his prophecy could never be completed with his wife would compel him to do something stupid like go after Lyanna. They saw the tourney like everyone else. Saw the snub and made a decision to mess with Reaghar's prophecy ambitions.

[@mozart7820]

Zarola they cannot be trusted with anything and have their own agenda. Maester manipulators.

[@mozart7820]

Zarola ps great theory

[@sophiawilson8696]

wow I heard of Maester Conspiracy but never that part that they fake Elia's condition that maybe she could have a baby again.

[@Zarola]

Sophia Wilson Yeah. I never heard any of the theorist I've followed say anything like this. Or at least I don't think so. But if the Maesters had been working for a long time against magic, wouldn't they attack the prince where it hurts? Westros was not pleased with how Aerys II was going nutso but Rheagar was destined to take over. It was considered that Aerys would die eventually and his son would bring things back on track. So given the T-line had the saving grace of Rheagar, how do you fuck that up? Well send him on a fools errand of prophecy-making. Lyanna has some interest to him and it's well-known that the Prince is waaaaay too into some prophecy about three-headed dragon. If Rheagar came to the idea that it would be his children, its not impossible that the Citadel could have figured out his thought process. Which would explain why an annulment by a maester went over so easily (if it also happened in the book the same way) and was buried as a fact. Instead they let it fester that Lyanna was kidnapped, Rheagar is just as crazy as dad, and let most of the Great Houses tear at House Targaryean for one reason or another. If anything was revealed and stopped before R+L death, most would be more focused on the annulment because Rheagar is still in the wrong for requesting it and seeking out a betrothed Lyanna. The T-line current prince wouldn't be trusted after starting another war and Viserys (a 6yo right?) would be crowned IF the other Houses accepted it. Citadel mechanization would be able to hide behind that.

[@logansmith2703]

Zarola I personally don't believe the Grand Maester Conspiracy but if it were true then this could definitely be possible. Probably much more effective than anybody could guess though.

[@LaurensCorner]

R/L/J peeps vs N/A/J throwing shade everywhere,... can't we just make like gladiators and fight it out with foam covered sticks?? :P ;)

[@SHARKVADERS]

Lauren's Corner Mashoonga to the death!!!

[@ValarMorghulis...]

Lauren's Corner lmao...let's set it up!! 😉🙃✋

[@truelove7407]

aaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha That was amazing!

[@abirdhasnoname.5376]

Love your videos! Love Grey Area but she posted an anti N+A=J video and it was nonsense. She said “they wouldn’t change the story from the book that dramatically” but like, WHAT ABOUT ALL THE STUFF THEY CHANGED ALREADY? The whole dorne story. Aegon. Everything!

[@allyriastark3508]

The Valonqar true, George said annulment or divorces aren't a thing in his world but smh R is able to do that? Behind his wife's back?

[@abirdhasnoname.5376]

allyria stark idk. Maybe she knew. Or he was a dirtbag. Lol

[@rd0676]

People that use the show for evidence of R+L=J, forget that in the show Podrick is a sex god. The 2 are different

[@usazambia]

Her post included a link where GRRM told the NYTimes D&D got Jon’s parents right. Now what?

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

except they could have chosen to portray his parents differently from the book, i mean who would spoil the book. maybe they guessed N+A=J but either chose or were adviced to change it for simplicity and to avoid spoilers. remember they guessed correctly before they made the show.

[@connorgolden4]

One thing I hate about the fandom is that pathetic love of rhaegar and Lyanna.

[@redrackham6812]

The only defense I shall give of Lyanna is that it is possible that the reveal in the books (if they ever come out, which is a pretty big if) will be different from the show, and it will turn out that Lyanna really was abducted by Rhaegar against her will. In which case, none of what happened was her fault, and she was just an innocent victim. I will point out that, even though he was riding away to war where he knew his life would be in danger, and in which he was in fact killed, Rhaegar left three of his elite bodyguards with Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, apparently with orders not to let anyone, even her own brother, in to see her. That seems to suggest that she was a prisoner or hostage, not a guest. But based on what was revealed on the show, you are absolutely right about both Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[@davisiotta489]

exactly, with everything we have been presented with it seems to be being thrown in our face that none of this was sought by Lyana, another thing that I think is important to mention is that Lyana was 15 while Rhaegar was already over 20, by the standards of our time that It's already rape even if she had consented

[@marouakheloui]

I don't understand something rhaegar was the only heir to throne so technically he could choose anyone why did he chooses a woman that he couldn't love and give her a miserable life he was stupid and selfish at the same time

[@2MelissaSue]

I don't always agree with you, but yet again you have made me really re-analyze my intial views as sort of drinking the GRR kool aid knowing he loves to divert our attention from underlying matters. Totally with you on Catelyn though .

[@RamseyKikyo]

I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only person that thought they were so shitty for basically starting a war over the lie that she was kidnapped. It's like a shittier version of Romeo and Juliet.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

it always bothered us that they were placed on such a pedestal by just about everyone, as if they had never even thought about how messed up what they did was

[@beamerball666]

A man sees a new Order Of The Greenhand video, a man watches, a man clicks like

[@karimam1275]

A girl approves!

[@vis1975]

The show made it look like Lyanna was a willing participant in all this, and if she truly was, that makes her as terrible as you're describing her. But from the way she's described by others, and also other factors, it doesn't make sense at all. Her speech about Robert's infidelity is one thing, as much as the way she's always compared to Arya, who isn't a rose glasses-wearing romantic who would fall for a prince that easily, and who's clever enough to understand the consequences of certain actions. Also, since I consider her the sane one in the equation, why wouldn't she send something to her family to let them know what had happened when she and rhaegar noticed the big massive war-bearing mistake they had made? Why was she sent to a tower in Dorne with just a few knights guarding it? They wouldn't have been useful at all if an army arrived, or even a small company of trained soldiers like we see with Ned's arrival. Were they there to keep her in? I don't know, as GRRM said, the truth is too elusive in this story. The thing that's certain is that it doesn't make sense at all to think of it as a romantic star-crossed lover story

[@jamespinto1884]

The video was awesome. I had forgotten of her saying that back in AGOT. Thank you, guys!

[@pattyc.4978]

Lol... Y'all don't know how much I dance when I start to hear the theme song come on. I assign that song with greatness now lol.

[@George-Hawthorne]

And people think Sansa was stupid.

[@scottspa74]

@orderofthegreenhand I LOVE YOU guys. Also, your ned and ashara theory has so much more supporting evidence than what the books or show have given us to support R+L=J.

[@stefiz]

I love when you both point out obvious truth in this snarky manner! Well done!

[@GoldenRose116]

I dislike both. But i hate Lyanna lightly more because of the hypocrites that say she was only 15. Like that never stopped them from hatintg Rob (14) or Sansa (11) for their mistakes.

[@intellectelite]

You guys should write a book

[@nicolehash42]

Hilarious...it would make such a better tale if n+a=j but on the other hand we have the power of hindsight still keeping my fingers crossed that the great grrm has duped the world...love your vids and keep up the amazing work

[@lelouche25]

You know what drives the knife even deeper? In the shows stupid reveal, Rhagear had his marriage annulled to Elia. He turned his own children into bastards. Imagine how "loyal" Dorne would have been finding out about this. Those dornish spears sent with Rhaegar should have been laying siege to Kings Landing declaring for Robert.

[@gameinspection4999]

Great video. I know this video is old but no matter what plausible scenario I try to think of nothing makes sense for their actions. One Theory is that Aerys found out Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree and tried to kill her and Rhegar abducted her to save her. But that falls apart because Rheagar took Lyanna when she was on her way to Riverrun for Catelyn and Brandon's marriage. He could have easily escorted her there and told everyone the situation. With the kingsguard and Lyanna to vouch for him he could have won over the north and Riverlands in one move and started his rebellion against his father. The second theory is that they didn't have time which is bullshit. The rebellion lasted about a year. Rhaegar could have EASILY have told SOMEONE the situation if everything was consensual. And the last theory that kind of backs up what Robert believes is what happened on the trident. Or rather what DIDNT happen. Before battle you have the opportunity to discuss peace terms, parlay, send a message etc. If Lyanna came willingly Rhaegar could have EASILY have told ned the situation and even have told him where she was. But none of that happened. So this leads me to believe there might actually be some truth to Robert's story. Cause if there isn't then well. Lyanna is just a hypocrite and a sociopath.

[@zamarickz]

You assume that Lyanna went willingly. There is not much evidence in the books to suggest this one way or the other. You could just as easily say that Rhaegar went prophecy crazy and kidnapped Lyanna, started a war, and died all with intent to fulfill some insane prophecy in his head, which could explain why he was so sad all his life. He knew the evil that he intended to commit (in order to save the world he thinks). It is still very open to interpretation until GRRM finishes the books.

[@micah06v8]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!! It burns me up when people go on about how in love they were...destroying an entire kingdom and getting thousands of people (including your own brothers & father); along with Elia thrown to the curb like a sack of garbage does NOT make them people to be idolized and fauned over! I've always thought them to be obscenely selfish and POS's.

[@scottmerryman]

Yep. This is still my favorite video y'all have ever produced. *chefs kiss*

[@Thejericko17]

I totally agree that Rhaegar and Lyanna suck. Nobody in this universe, except maybe Bloodraven, Varys and Littlefinger actually use their head. Interestingly enough I don't think Oberyn or Elia much cared about Lyanna, they're Dornish, paramours are a thing. Not to mention the fact that Rhaegar as both Crown Prince and a Targaryen would/could have just taken Lyanna as a second wife. Aegon did it. It's not so much what they did but how they did it that was the problem. Somebody should have done their homework before they started blowing up the realm but you know, people suck.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

George actually said the Martells were livid about Lyanna

[@Thejericko17]

The Order of the Green Hand I think I remember reading that somewhere. I also feel like somewhere in one of the books Oberyn says something about it too. I honestly think it was more about the "hows." If Rhaegar would have kept her as a quiet side piece or would have tried to marry her more formally I doubt it would have been too much of a problem. Sadly,he's a freaking idiot (or just young and dumb) and he decided to do it in the stupidest of ways. *sigh*

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I think only oberyon was doran is shady he might not really care

[@comrade_marshal]

Elia and Ashara were the only two people who just lost everything for no reason in the entire saga

[@madambutterfly1997]

But no one truly knew them as ppl. With Benjen being the only person who knew Lyanna personally considering they were alone together in Winterfell

[@brothaantone8286]

So, basically what y’all saying is that, Lyanna Stark was okay with being the prince’s side-chick. lol