Fermented Foods, Fibre & Immunity | Dr. Sonnenburg & Dr. Gardner | The Proof Podcast Bonus EP

In Episode 191 I sat down with Stanford University Professor’s Dr Christopher Gardner and Dr Justin Sonnenburg to talk about fermented foods, fibre, gut health and immunity. This conversation was organised following the results of their latest randomised controlled trial ‘Gut-microbiota-targeted diets modulate human immune status’ pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34256... which was published in Cell Press in 2021.
Specifically we covered:
0:00 Intro
3:35 Dr. Sonnenburg’s Story
6:35 Defining the microbiome
15:23 A Healthy Microbiome
20:51 Diversity & Inflammation
28:21 Studying Diet & Microbiome
46:10 Fermented Foods & Live Cultures
51:56 Results of the Study
1:08:15 Supplements vs Fermented Foods
1:12:32 High Fibre Diets
1:21:08 Microbiome Tests
1:25:06 Key Takeaways
1:30:04 Outro
Resources:
Gut-microbiota-targeted diets modulate human immune status [PMID: 34256014](pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34256...)
Dr Gardner on Twitter gardnerphd?lang=en
The Sonnenburg lab on Twitter / labsonnenburg
Sonnenburg Lab Website: sonnenburglab.stanford.edu/
The Good Gut: www.amazon.com.au/Good-Gut-Ta... by Drs Justin & Erica Sonnenburg
Previous episodes with Dr Christopher Gardner on plant-based meat: theproof.com/is-plant-based-m...
and Low versus high carb diets and weight loss: theproof.com/low-carb-vs-high...
====
Want to support the show? If you are enjoying The Proof a great way to support the show is by subscribing to my KZbin channel or leaving a review on Apple Podcasts.
The Proof with Simon Hill theproof.com/podcast/
Book: The Proof is in the Plants theproof.com/book/
Apple Podcast podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...
Spotify open.spotify.com/show/7bAIJCV...
Instagram / theproof
Twitter / theproof
Facebook / theproofwithsimonhill
Two week meal plan theproof.com/mealplan/
Plant Performance theproof.com/plant-performance/

[@mamakaka73]

I have high blood pressure and I started eating fermented foods one month ago. Even with the high sodium of sourkraut and other fermented veggies, my blood pressure has gone down without medication. I don't think - fir me at least - the salt affected anything.

[@cadupradoo]

I've been wondering if steaming my tempeh or cooking it was making me lose the fermented benefits, but you guys went directly to the point @ 48:00. There aren't the same fermented benefits as a live culture to begin with. Thanks for all the knowledge. I've said it before, but your work made me switch careers and go into nutrition in college next year after one and half decade in engineering! Thanks for the inspiration!

[@keto-rl2ce]

From what I've learned for my own homemade tempeh as long as you cook it on heat below 115F you wont kill off the probiotics.

[@smilebot484]

i can't believe i missed this one when it came out. we started doing a lot of fermenting a decade ago but because of all the sodium we backed off. now we're getting into kombucha fermentation based on your shows. definitely noticing better gut health already. the crazy thing is we eat a very plant heavy vegan diet with tons of sprouts and a big diversity of plant fibers but even so i was still having some gut issues. so i believe i need some fermented foods like kombucha.

[@walterski8377]

Or meat

[@ivannagy6427]

Meat guys.your body need quality protein aminoacid profile

[@jamiebbooks]

I was thinking fermented food was a rather limited list of options, but I'd forgotten about cheeses. My fridge already has good blue cheese, swiss, gouda and aged cheddar, so now eating multiple servings of food with active bacteria is much easier.

[@natures_child]

Thank you Simon for another fascinating interview. I could listen to Christopher and Justin all day long. The more I learn about the gut microbiome the more I want to know. I suffer from histamine intolerance so have to limit fermented food, but I have just made my own homemade kimchi and plan to eat a small amount several times a week in the hope that I can tolerate it. Please keep on sharing the knowledge :)

[@AlvaroFierroGodTank]

How has that gone? I'm really curious 😮

[@aeonikus1]

great podcast, very informative, thanks for your work.

[@Ross8992]

Very interesting. And great questions from you, Simon.

[@KM-po5kk]

This is what the ancestral diet community has been talking about the entire time!

[@plantbasedsaver7250]

One of my favorite episodes among so many other great ones!!! :)

[@lorrainenelson2784]

0:44

[@topofthemornintoya]

Love this Pod ❤

[@carolinecroft7029]

Brilliant information

[@nancykeenan1681]

Fantastic episode 👏 👌 👍 🙌 ❤

[@kiwiwriter]

Identifying specific cultivable fibre fermenting microbes would be huge. Hope you have a follow up with Christopher & Justin their ideas are to the point.

[@beshkettou]

🔥thank u!

[@brigitadominis7300]

Excellent interviews Prof Gardener and Prof Sonnenberg life changing I 😊

[@MrOldSkoolMan]

I'm definitely struggling big time with bloating since going WFPB. I eat lots of beans & lentils (and fruit) & while I know they are the biggest causes, it leaves me wondering if I should return to eggs & dairy. I know protein is likely over emphasised but nonetheless, without the inclusion of beans, I will not be able to sustain this dietary lifestyle. I'm not vegan because I do eat a little fish about 3 times per week - the reason being for b12 & omega 3s. Yes, I do have some nuts & seeds but I use those for nutrients only because they certainly are not satiating for me. Hoping my gut will adjust, otherwise it's game over! Note: I did do a drastic u-turn having come from keto & even a stint on carnivore. I know I should have transitioned slowly as I would have lacked the microbes to deal with starch & fibre but I'm one of those who goes in head first 😂. Been bloated for 7-8 weeks now but will hang on a bit longer & hope that my microbes will increase & adapt.

[@sabinewalter9887]

Don't give up! Give your gut time to get used to the increased legume consumption and add some real fermented foods with "bugs" that can digest all that fiber. I've been making Sauerkraut, Kombucha, Tempeh, & Sourdough bread myself for years (well - and beer is fermented, too; but I bet the alcohol kills the microbes), and I believe that the combination of fermented foods with a whole-food diet helps me stay healthy. Maybe go for a walk/hike after you eat beans -- :) it helps me against the bloating!

[@MrOldSkoolMan]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill I haven't but will do so now. Thanks Simon.

[@Test-eb9bj]

Experiment a bit more with your portfolio. Reduce the amount of beans/legumes and monitor how it goes. Second thing could be „too much“ (too much for you especially when combined with the beans) fruit. Cut back or switch out for low sugar fruits (berries, kiwi, apricots) and see how you feel.

[@soilikasanen]

Some do get bloated having fruits and veggies during same meal. For them it's better to combine grains with fruits, nuts and seeds, and legumes with veggies. Please inform us how you're doing. Best wishes from Finnish 🇫🇮 lifestyle medicine practicing physician.

[@MrOldSkoolMan]

Thanks for the comments. For a couple of days last week, I ate just starch (rice & potatoes) with some carrots & tomato passata. Stomach seemed flatter. I then added the beans, more veggies & fruit... and boom. Bloated stomach & looking skinny fat. Going to just follow the starch solution for now & quit the bulk of the veggies & all fruit. I had a flat stomach when eating animal based keto but fruit, vegetables & beans are just not working for me. This is depressing & making me feel like perhaps those who say fibre isn't needed or that vegetables are 'toxic' could be right. Never have I had such digestive issues since going plant based... 😔

[@user-xp6om3yp5k]

Advice for those with histamine intolerance?

[@jeffreywp]

Would love if they released a list of true fermented products, particularly plant-based options. Knowing which products are truly beneficial and which were “artificial” and not as beneficial.

[@christopherellis2663]

Eat unprocessed food. Don't eat carbohydrates or sugars. The necessary microbiome will get on with it. Eat plants, and you will produce methane in your colon.

[@domberdeocampo9890]

,8

[@walterski8377]

​@@TheProofWithSimonHill$$$$$$$$$$??????

[@theajohansen9136]

16:04 16:13 16:13 16:04 16:06

[@theajohansen9136]

16:46 16:50

[@growlocalmarketing]

I listened to Dr Neal Barnard today who stated that yoghurt and fermented food have no affect. How to know who’s right?

[@nomvonglismerced4311]

Food is GRAS and can be used as experimental drugs! What a concept! Finally trying to realize "food as medicine".

[@samieramohamed2467]

It is good the guests do not sell books or supplements as all others do. Thanks.

[@azdazd9353]

My anxiety disappeared after I started eating fermented foods, especially homemade sauerkraut, and fiber.

[@Chasee445]

What are the fiber degrading strains of probiotics?

[@deel2435]

What is considered a portion though? There's lots of talk that we should consume 4 portions of fermented food per day but what constitutes a portion? EDIT: I will come back and edit this again and include the timestamp where the detail how to calculate portion size from daily calorie consumption.

[@deel2435]

​@@TheProofWithSimonHill Thanks Simon, I appreciate you. This is my mistake. I went back and listened again, they provide detail about calories as a way to gauge portion size (I will cite the timestamp in an edit). Next up is figuring out how to include fermented foods with non-erosive gastritis, not caused by h-pylori. Sour, high sodium foods are deleterious to the stomach lining with gastritis. I'm writing to both of them to see if they have any research available about the subject. At this stage, I'll try anything. Take care of yourself.

[@Amis444]

So for someone with not very diverse microbiome that is stable at being so. What would it take to make it more diverse and fixed? If the person is already on high fiber diet with protein and fats, but low on carbohydrates. Would the answer be changing fresh fibers for fermented ones and keeping it that way for prolonged period?

[@k.h.6991]

I would start by adding fermented foods daily, not in place of whole plants you're already eating. Instead, allow processed and animal foods to be crowded out. The microbiome is never fixed. What you eat changes your microbiome daily. To get to a stable higher levels of diversity, you need those fermented foods as well as food for them. And what our microbiome eats is plant foods.

[@LemyAng]

Who should not eat fermented foods? If someone has intestinal problems such as inflammation of the mucous membrane, are they allowed to eat fermented foods?

[@jaxnaturals]

Trying to find some information on sibo. You know of a good reputable podcast or do you have an episode on this?

[@jaxnaturals]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill great. Subscribed!

[@rp011051]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i2nUk6eCjqypisU dr. william davis, author o SUPERGUT

[@doryb4808]

Just noticed the second ingredient on Silk Brand yogurt is can sugar. WTH. : Ingredients. Soymilk (Filtered Water, Soybeans), Cane Sugar, Corn Starch, Tricalcium Phosphate, Pectin, Natural Flavor, Dipotassium Phosphate, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Live And Active Cultures, Mixed Tocopherols And Vitamin C Ester (to protect freshness), Vitamin D2. CONTAINS

[@0104nikola]

What about miso paste? Does that count as fermented food?

[@cassandrabrecht]

Yes, as long as you don't heat it so hot that it kills the bacteria.

[@N22883]

Are certain fermented foods better than other? Yogurt is cheapest around me, but I’m wondering if kefir or others have more colonies or strains, assuming those conditions would produce more health benefits Basically I’m wondering if eating plain Greek yogurt is good enough haha Edit: just listened to the bit at 1:00:00 and that suggests yogurt is one of the ‘better’ foods Love the podcast!! I really like how you ask specific questions and visualize the process! Personal note: some people don’t have the microbiota that works well with fiber, it can actually cause more inflammation. Theorized they don’t have the microbiota to break down the fiber. So maybe introduced fermented foods first, and then more fiber?

[@N22883]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill fantastic! Thank you so much!!

[@TheBswan]

I've heard kefir has more strains that can survive in our body compared to yogurt. Other interesting thing with kefir is it's very easy to make your own, and has way more microbial diversity than what you get from the store, which underground shorter ferments with limited microbial starters compared to actual kefir grains.

[@N22883]

@@TheBswan I've heard something similar, and I actually just received some active kefir grains from Amazon in the mail two days ago! It's still fermenting but I'm really looking forward to it all I agree it's relatively simple haha

[@thinkchair96]

@@N22883 what ferments are you currently consuming every day? Anything except the kefir?

[@N22883]

@@thinkchair96 I consume about 1 serving of greek yogurt daily along with 2-3 cups of the homemade kefir daily. I really love the active kefir grains I ordered on Amazaon - it's super easy and definitely worth it imo

[@marinasmith4772]

What about Kefir?

[@EvgeniiaDolinenko]

It's good for microbiome. Listen to Tim Spector. He defends Kefir a lot. 😊

[@skylarc8859]

what about formented fish?

[@8mora888]

Fermented fish is good.

[@I-am-ironbark]

Does anyone know exactly how big a "serving" is in grams for each of the included foods? Edit: I got a copy of the paper and found the relevant bit. One serving of fermented foods were defined as the following: kom- bucha, yogurt, kefir, buttermilk, kvass = 6 oz, kimchi, sauerkraut, other fermented veggies = 1/4 cup, vegetable brine drink = 2 oz.

[@emilievaugeois2143]

From what I've seen, all it takes is 10g to provide benefits, but you can obviously have more

[@CL-im9lk]

Test the gut also of people that become carnivore. That would be interesting.

[@dvdmon]

I don't have the time/space/bravery to ferment foods myself, so I would love to eat them more often, but my problem has been finding fermented foods that don't have a lot of sodium in them per gram. I've heard it's possible to ferment things without using salt, but no one seems to be doing this commercially. :( As someone with heart disease I have to be particularly careful about sodium intake. I think the only fermented food I've seen that doesn't seem to have lots of sodium is natto.

[@tofu-munchingCoalition.ofChaos]

Some fermented food is very quickly fermented. Soy yoghurt for example (if you have a way to maintain a constant warm temperature - multiple devices can do that now). A few hours is enough. And because it's so quick you don't need a lot of bravery. The same goes for fermenting tofu info something feta-like with not pasteurised miso, lemon juice and herbs. It just takes two days. Never gone wrong and I had confidence because it's a short fermentation and started with good bacteria. Essentially you start with a source of good bacteria (probiotic capsules, soy yoghurt with bacteria from store ... in the case of the soy yoghurt or miso in the case of feta-style fermented tofu) and that's why it's fast and unproblematic. For me it's a test if a source (soy yoghurt from store, miso, ...) contains bacteria as well as a way to get more bacteria for my dollar. Kefir (water) is another easy one. I'm sure there are plenty you can find which are not so difficult. The next level for me was making misozuke tofu. Even if mold develops it's on the outside and you can replace that. I'm there at the moment. This level of fermentation. I'm planning to do more. Beverages from bacteria used to make miso for example. And sauerkraut/kimchi.

[@annemccarron2281]

It's my understanding that the salt preserves the food. Can you even make fermented foods - certainly not sourkraut and kemshi - without salt? Can you?

[@cswann8]

Can't help with courage, but kefir and Dr Davis' Super Gut yogurt are very easy to make and neither use salt. And unless you live in a closet, space shouldn't be an issue either.

[@dvdmon]

@@cswann8 not an option for me as I don't do dairy, however, I've been making my own soy yogurt in my Instant Pot for months now.

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

You can ferment in Kefir only.

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

What does fiber do again?

[@sashanealand8315]

always gets moldy

[@drewetpa]

Speaking as a dad, I would be deeply ashamed of that joke. 😮

[@dk.650]

Tried this way of eating, gut was upset and not happy. Went carnivore and much better.

[@catchristo9406]

Yeah, I loved carnivore and it helped so much, especially with bloating and gut problems. Also was awesome to never be hungry. I do like fruits and vegetables though, so adding them back slowly (mostly fermented), but the hunger is coming back with the fruits and veggies. I really don't like feeling hungry again.

[@MariaRodriguez-gc9jk]

All these fermented foods are high in sodium and all these Kombuchas are high in sugar- yogurt are high in the milking animal’s endógenos estrogen. So, all of them are not advised for breast and prostate as well as some other cancer patients!

[@EvgeniiaDolinenko]

Seems like you are not well informed. Read more. 😅

[@mco119jj]

For real. Man, people just can't be bothered to pull up Google, can they?

[@JohnSmith-oc9iw]

BS.He never answered the most important questions.what of waste of time .

[@peouspaul1258]

Do not eat fermented foods .. eats more types of fiber and visit a farm once in a while..

[@peouspaul1258]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill yes .. most fermented foods unhealthy..

[@peouspaul1258]

@@TheProofWithSimonHill neu5gc in milk based fermented foods trigger inflammation..

[@wolfthequarrelsome504]

​@@peouspaul1258 And fibre... What's that supposed to do for anyone?

[@peouspaul1258]

@@wolfthequarrelsome504 it is the food of microbiome.. which make SCFA and many other nutrients..