Transform Your Outdoor Space: Diy Under Deck Roof And Drainage (part 1) With Renee Romeo

Transform your space: DIY Under Deck Roof and Drainage System Part 1 with Renee Romeo.
I'm here with my parents to show you how to install a DIY under deck roof and drainage system part 1. We've just enclosed the patio underneath our deck (see How to Screen in a Porch or Patio - August 17, 2018) to make it insect-free. Now, we're making it waterproof (or moisture resistant) so that we can enjoy the space even when it rains! This is a great DIY project to do with friends or family. This job includes handling bulky materials so (for safety reasons) it's not a one-person job.
It looks so neat and clean!
I love tidy spaces. I don't think that looking at the underside of a deck is the most pleasing view. Don't get me wrong, it's great to look at while you're building it but seems thoroughly unfinished if you're trying to do some living there. That's why this project is so great for those of us who want to enjoy the outdoors on a rainy day and gain use-able square footage. This under deck system looks and performs professionally. If you follow my guidelines and materials list :Under Deck Supply List you will get the same professional results from your project too. You can view this list by going to my website: www.reneeromeo.com, clicking on CONSTRUCTION and downloading it from the commentary below the video.
An Inexpensive DIY under deck roof and drainage system is what you'll have...
ALL of the materials used on this project are easily available at your local big box store. None of the supplies or materials are expensive. You only need one specialty tool to cut the roofing material but it's an inexpensive item that you can use again and again. So, if you can use a cordless (or electric) screwdriver or drill, you can do this project! Expect to gain valuable outdoor living space that won't break the bank. You'll be so happy with the results.
The DIY site that teaches you how to create and succeed with all projects around the home. www.reneeromeo.com #reneeromeodiy #diylikeapro
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[@blainad]

The RUSH T-shirt instantly convinced me to listen to you.

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Blain - That t-shirt is a prized possession! Everything turns out great when I wear that shirt. Hahaha Thanks!! Renee

[@dad1432]

Over 30 years ago, someone tore my Power Windows Tour shirt in a fight. He was so drunk, I could hardly see him.

[@angelcastaneda4922]

Thanks for uploading. I've been thinking of getting someone to do this in our house, but after watching this, it looks like something I can tackle.

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Angel, You're very welcome! You absolutely can do this - just like a pro. All the materials are readily available and you can have the metal cut to length for you by the store. Yes, you'll need an extra hand or two but the results are worth it. We spend all of our time underneath the deck now because it's nice and dry. Also, we've added a lot of value to the house with some usable square footage. Did you see my screened-in porch video too? reneeromeo.com/2018/08/17/how-to-screen-in-a-porch-or-patio/ Why hire a pro when you can do this just as well and for thousands less? You can do this too, Renee

[@patrickmckowen2999]

Good vid👍 I did a similar thing serval yrs ago using vinyl siding. Redoing deck now and finding tons of debris and sediment build up on the panels despite having a good slope. We do have big pines close by, so that most likely contributed significantly. But it is great having that dry spot underneath. Cheers

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Patrick, Thank you so much for the feedback! Fortunately, I don't have trees anywhere near this spot, so no concern on my part. Did you use a pressure washer to clean it? I'm curious to know how you did it. Renee

[@patrickmckowen2999]

@@ReneeRomeo Didn't clean it - tearing it all out in the upcoming reno next month so I am reviewing other ideas. Cheers

[@tsm1776]

@@patrickmckowen2999 have you decided on what you’re going to do next? I’m trying to find some affordable version of corrugated siding.

[@nancystaggs8605]

Sweetie this video is to me like watching a French movie, I have no idea what you are talking about but you are very passionate about it . So carry on. You are very informative as always and I am sure others will appreciate this . Great video? love ya kid keep kicking!!!

[@ReneeRomeo]

Nancy Staggs, You're cracking me up! 😂 I was experimenting with a different video style - it seems successful for others but it was more work-intensive for me to produce. Not everything you learn at Social Media conferences work for everyone. I'm always trying to tweak things but this style is definitely not for me. I may re-work this video in the future to make it easier to follow. Thanks for the invaluable feedback! Part 2 will be the old me. I'll keep plugging along... Renee

[@Jas4u2]

same thing By .

[@hearclear1524]

Unfortunately the pressure treated lumber has chemicals that are going to corrode the screws for the roofing much more quickly. Hopefully not too quickly. I didn’t know this but when researching a roofing manufacturer gave me a head’s up so hoping to use cedar instead of PT.

[@garza727]

🥰 yes chief boss yes wherever you said

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi santacruz, You're lovely! Thank you for the smile today, Renee

[@honestlynate7922]

The only problem I have with this entire project is that you guys are going to have problems if you live in a freeze thaw area of the world. Brick is not waterproof. Flex seal is not the product to waterproof brick. There are waterproofing products that will allow the brick to breathe and allow the brick to evaporate moisture towards the outside of the home. When the brick cannot release it's moisture outside it will release it inside allowing moisture to access the wood framing that most brick homes have on the interior . Bricks breathe and help regulate humidity in your home.

[@ReneeRomeo]

Honestly Nate, Thanks for this! I'm actually in the process of waterproofing some outside concrete railings so I'll check the label and see if it's appropriate for brick as well. Thanks for the great advice!! Perfect timing, Renee

[@darthmadeus]

Pretty much came here to say the exact same thing. Brick must be able to breath or it the trapped moisture within the brick, will cause it to deteriorate rapidly. I've seen some brick that was reduced to dust once the water proofing was removed. A semi permeable coating is completely fine, but it CANNOT be sealed

[@TeamHomewardFound]

I was about to say the same thing 😅

[@WisconsinDIYGuy]

Here also for same thing. Brick is far far from waterproof. Just gutted a wall behind a brick exterior where the sheathing and framing was heavily damaged due to moisture coming thru brick.

[@rjdamato]

I was looking around at different "under deck" drainage options and came upon your video...not great for my particular situation; however, you are wearing a RUSH shirt--so it's "Thumbs up" automatically!

[@ReneeRomeo]

Robert, Thanks for the thumbs up anyway! I hope you find what you're looking for. Mine worked out great and the band is the best!! Renee

[@adnanshaikh2785]

can we use pvc corrigated instead of metal. WHAT MAKES MORE SENCE?

[@briankimmell7960]

RUSH approves this message

[@ReneeRomeo]

Brian, I WISH!!! Hahaha. Thanks for noticing my favorite t-shirt. ALl the best. Renee

[@davidjones663]

Great tutorial, thanks. My main concern is that the metal roofing looks to be installed so that the flattest part of the sheet is fastened to the 2x4's. It seems like the 2x4's are going to block and slow down a lot of the water flow. Am I missing or misunderstanding something?

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi David, That's exactly how I installed the panels but there is a 1 1/2 valley in between each flat part that allows the water to flow through. There is enough space to carry the water away efficiently. All the best with your project, Renee

[@TURTLEORIGINAL]

I built homes for a living, 40 years (retired). No matter what material your home is made of, you never allow water to purposely flow into the home. Why? Answer: Water will erode your foundation out at the point of water discharge, plus your placing unnecessary wear on your brick substrate. Flex Seal! Come on. If I were you, I'd dissemble the metal and flip the flow of water discharge. Hook up a 275 gallon water tote and harvest all that water for your lawn, flowers etc. Best wishes to you.

[@ReneeRomeo]

No one special, Thank you for your expertise and I agree with you completely. However, in my case the gutter system that I installed and connected to my existing underground drainage system is working beautifully. I now can fill up my backyard pond with rainwater that used to flow to this area. Also, the flexseal was used to take care of any potential overspray (similar to rain falling on the surface) and those areas no longer get wet with this system so it was overkill. The pitch of the roofing and gutter system that I installed after installing the metal panels are doing the job perfectly and no water is falling down the wall and reaching the foundation. It's a super dry area now. I'm giving myself an A+ . All the best, Renee

[@TURTLEORIGINAL]

@@ReneeRomeo Sounds great!

[@jerrymcafee1856]

Hi Renee. We are so glad we found your videos. Your tips have been so helpful in our under deck project. How did you install the ceiling fan? We want to be sure we do it right so that no moisture/water gets in where it doesn't belong.

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Jerry, I don't like giving advice about electrical issues but this is how I did it: For a ceiling fan, You'll need to install a heavy duty bracket in the rafters before you install the metal pole barn siding material. Then mark a hole and drill out your location for the electrical box, finishing up with the tin snip scissors. From there, I ran the outdoor electrical wiring (and all its outdoor connectors to make it waterproof) and coated the entire electrical junction box with roofing tar (including the top opening perimeter of the metal roofing) and then screwed the roofing panel in place. I then took 50 year silicone and caulked the entire perimeter the box, as well as where the wire comes into the box. All three fixtures have been leak free. Roofing tar is a must! To be clear, this isn't advice. It's just how I did it. All the best with your project, Renee

[@stevesalavec5082]

I am having a hard time finding the pole barn siding. Any suggestions?

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Steve,, Try zLowe's or Home Depot online. You really need these for a tight water seal. Best wishes, Renee

[@stevesalavec5082]

@@ReneeRomeo What exactly should I be asking for?

[@ReneeRomeo]

@@stevesalavec5082 These are also called rubber washer galvanized roofing screws. I would get the 1 1/2 inch length or larger

[@jimbujold5586]

Hey, love diy on the inexpensive! Do you have a follow up ‘rain’ video, any leaks, is it still holding up? Thanks!

[@ReneeRomeo]

I don't have a follow up but the "roof" is just fine after these few years. I don't have any trees near it so there's no chance of debris getting in and causing a dam. That's my number one question. It's such a nice, dry space - we're out there all the time. Success! Thanks for asking, Renee

[@dad1432]

​@ReneeRomeo I have the same concern about debris buildup. I wonder if placing screen material between the decking and joists would help.

[@ReneeRomeo]

@@dad1432 Absolutely a GREAT idea!!

[@ninabarron9999]

Hi Renee - what a great project and videos! Sorry to say that I do have a question - why is the strapping put on every other joist? I envy you that you tackled such an mathematical endeavour, I also have been swinging a hammer for a long while I was the youngest of 4 kids and the only girl. My dad was my rock but anyway I was first included in the making of a cabin, then a three bedroom cottage, a full gut of 2 houses and then a full gut later in life with my 2nd husband! I'm 60 this year and still doing projects right now I'm working on a reno in the garage and doing the under deck roof! I'll be watching for more and the answer to my question - Great Job ... Well done and also thanks for speaking so clearly

[@junkman4126]

All those shelves you made are going to collect debris retaining moisture, leaves, then worms. Plus the 2x4 hanger was unnecessary since there will be no high winds, dead loads, hail, ice dams, etc like on a regular roofing system. Better off ripping the 2x4's or a wider board to rip what is needed and run the rip boards across your beams or inline with your beams. Inline is a little easier, rip (1" Thick x 12 Long") times however many you will need, etc then (1 1/2Tx12L") (2T"x12L") (2 1/2Tx 12L") (3T"x12L"), heck even 6"Long would be fine, whatever is needed to extend the width down of your existing beams for the desired pitch. They will be placed inline-like dashes on a piece of paper at the intervals you plan to attach the under roofing. Similar principles will apply to go across your beams where you would attach full-length boards to the dashes you made except your dashes would be thinner. Say for instance your cross boards are 1"Thick x2"Wide x(8ft, 10ft, or 12feet long), etc. the first board is placed across with no extension this is normally your high point. followed by 1/2" x 6" or 12" adding the thickness of your cross-board would be 1 1/2" thick, next would be a 1" plus cross-board would be 2 inches thick. your screws would be placed every 24" or 36" on center and that is where you want your dashes and cross-boards to be placed. Edit to add, placement of your screws would be similar to installing a tin roof like on a gable roof, or even a dog house. Simply you did not need to use all that wood or screws you probably used. 600 square feet multiply by 80% equals 480 screws placed at the desired or regulated intervals. Overlapping your panels properly and stitcher screws are important as well and never ever have water running toward your house brick or not. I can go into many reasons as to why not and hopefully 10 years down the road you do not find out the hard way. Best of luck to you, all in all, I enjoyed your hack job video you are pleasant to watch.

[@ReneeRomeo]

Junk Man, Thank you for the great feedback. I know there are many ways to this and I appreciate you including specifics for others to follow as well. This is what I came up based on the stack of materials I had left over from another project. I'm just sharing the way I thought it out. Incidentally, the brick walls remain dry because of the gutter system I installed (I'm not sure you watched all the way to the end). It's a perfectly dry space now. I'm glad you enjoyed watching, Renee

[@junkman4126]

@@ReneeRomeo Welcome and yes, I watched it all which time will tell, I give it 10 years.

[@Imsierrabound]

So how do you deal with leaves and needles that fall through the cracks of the decking and eventually get hung-up on the 2x4’s because the metal roofing channels are too small when mounted directly against the 2x4’s?

[@ReneeRomeo]

I don't have any trees near my house but if you do, I would flush it out with a garden hose this time of year. All the best, Renee

[@anamsurfer4672]

Do you need a j Chanel along house ?

[@ReneeRomeo]

@anamsurfer4672 I have a gutter collecting all the water, so no j Channel needed.

[@TheKrankyyankee]

Thank you for this video. I am currently following your method to install an under deck ceiling on our deck. How much space did you leave between the end of your steel panels and the brick to allow for the flow of water into the gutter? I would like to avoid leaving too large or too small of a gap.

[@uhogmo]

What is the span of the 10”wood supporting the long 2x4? Is it 36”?

[@ReneeRomeo]

uhogmo, Great question! Mine is actually 32" because I have a 16" span between my deck joists. Yours may be slightly different than mine, depending upon how your deck was built. I hope that helps! All the best with your deck project, Renee

[@uhogmo]

Can I use 2x2 instead of 2x4 if I use polycarbonate plastic roof instead of metal pole barn sheet?

[@ReneeRomeo]

@@uhogmo I looked at that material too and it would be great for this use as well. However, you'll probably have to cut the polycarbonate differently than the metal material. I recommend getting the thicker version of this and cut it with a jig saw (around objects) and the straight cuts can be done with a circular saw and the proper blades. It will definitely save your hands from scissor fatigue. Also, the pole barn screws are designed for flat surfaces so they're perfect for keeping out water on the metal material. Make sure that your pole barn screws are the proper diameter to make a nice seal around the curved material of the polycarbonate to make a water tight seal. As far as the 2 x 2's are concerned, the only issue I see with them is that You'll have to be a little more careful when attaching your pole barn screws because you won't have as much leeway in their placement. Other than that, you're good to go! Renee

[@regalia_usa]

doesn't that system make the area under deck to be counted as impervious then?

[@ReneeRomeo]

Chris, Technically, it's not impervious along the perimeter. I've had two deluges of rain this summer (since doing this) and had some minor water overflow of the gutter that led to drips along the brick wall. I think it's understandable during very heavy rains. Other that that, it's been a nice, consistently dry place to enjoy the outdoors - especially during a normal rain storm. All the best, Renee

[@regalia_usa]

@@ReneeRomeo oh you don't need to sell me on the concept, i love it. i'm just fighting with city officials when it comes to my pervious/impervious calculations as i can't have over 50% impervious in my zoning. I would love to have this drainage system but can't if that add up to the impervious area, because i would be way over 50%. city codes are ridiculous

[@ReneeRomeo]

@@regalia_usa I've never heard of this restriction. Hopefully, this will satisfy your local ordinance and you can move forward with the project. Please let me know which way it goes. Fingers crossed 🤞

[@virgilk3447]

Great video, but how is water draining if your metal roofing is attached flat against the pressure treated purlins with roofing screws? Typically, the metal roofing is mostly flat except for ribbing spaced every 9 or 10 inches. When attaching metal roofing, the speciality screws are attached at the flat points and flush/snugged to the purlins. Is the ribbing of metal roofing sufficient to accommodate water flowing to the gutter? It seems like you are creating a series of dams where rainwater/snowmelt would back up against your 1x purlins, eventually leading to mold and debris. It also would eventually rot away the purlins, even with pressure treated lumber. Certain types of corrugated metal panels (for barns, garages, and you casually mention these at the beginning of the video) have ribbing every 2.5 inches, which would alleviate the potential debris/water backup. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this for your project. Thanks!

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi David, You bring up some excellent points. I should have described the barn metal roofing a little better in the video. The type that I found has 7 inch spacing between ribs and then 2 smaller indentations between the ribs - I think this the material that you're talking about above. The ribs are about an inch deep. There is also about and inch of space for air flow left all along the screen wall for air flow from the front of the room to the gutter wall (the direction of the wind). If I could have found plastic material for purlins - that definitely would have been better than pressure treated material. I can't say for sure that water isn't sitting up against the pressure treated purlins during a downpour but the water flow into the gutters has been great. The screws aren't completely snugged up to the purlins either- just enough to get a slight dimple in the bushing of the pole barn screws - so the roofing doesn't sit flat against them. During the first heavy downpour, I added two additional straps for the downspout that I had to run (horizontally) along the brick wall for stability. It's been a dry space since it was finished and I don't notice any difference in the feel of the air on the deck above. I think additional humidity on the deck above would be an indication of a moisture problem. If you're still concerned, you could increase the pitch over the course of your project. That will definitely increase water flow. I hope this helps! Thank you, Renee

[@virgilk3447]

@@ReneeRomeo Hi... thanks for your quick response... I live in Colorado at 8,000 ft so relatively dry and not humid. I agree that if deck boards are adequately spaced, there probably won't be as much issue, perhaps...but organic debris like pine needles and leaves do slip through. There are plastic purlins, but they are made for the polycarbonate type of panels so not sure they are adaptable to metal. The metal, on the other hand, looks much more aesthetically pleasing than the polycarbonate material, and of course, the metal material is way more durable. And the plastic purlins would add some fairly significant costs. I've seen many of the more expensive packaged systems with removable panels to clean and retrieve items falling between decking boards, but...well... ridiculously expensive upfront costs. Pitch is definitely key. I believe most metal roof manufacturers recommend a minimal 3/12 pitch, but that's understandable for a roof. Looks and sounds like the pitch you have works fine! Our deck is 30' x 12' and 20' x 10' so considerable area, but don't need to cover the entire area. Thanks again for your information! Keep it up!!

[@ReneeRomeo]

​@@virgilk3447 That's exactly what I was finding when I priced this out - the "systems" are a system for companies to make a lot of money! You have a larger area to cover than I did so it just depends on how much you want to spend. One thing to note (and I didn't think of this at the time of filming) is that I don't have any nearby trees on that side of my house. Pine needles would definitely be a problem for air flow. In your case, If your deck boards run parallel to the house, you could remove the first board and pressure wash above the metal to make sure things are cleared out once a year. It's just a thought...

[@patrickhughes5406]

Renee, thank you for the video, I’ve been thinking about doing underdecking for a couple of years, and you have given me some great ideas. I have one question that you may have answered but I didn’t see it, or maybe it didn’t apply to your house. My deck is attached with a faceplate to the house. What did you use, or recommend to use to keep the part that comes up against the house dry? J-channel? Sorry I don’t know the construction language. 🙂

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Patrick, I'm sorry this question got lost in the shuffle and I'm afraid I may be too late anyway. This situation didn't apply to my project. I used waterproofing for brick because I don't have a face plate. If you have siding, I would recommend using thin aluminum and 50 year caulk behind each screw that you use to attach it. SO sorry I missed this! Renee

[@cynthiasantiago3805]

Can you tell me what panels you used for this?

[@ReneeRomeo]

I bought 15' barn siding. It was inexpensive and pretty thick. Best wishes, Renee

[@mattdalesio1443]

Any issues with joists rotting / not drying?

[@ReneeRomeo]

Matt, This roof has great drainage and the space is dry. There is no evidence of rot. It has been a dry feeling space as well wwith plenty of air flow. Renee

[@mattdalesio1443]

@@ReneeRomeo that's great to hear it's going well after 4 years. I'm about to attempt this on a 46ft deck but was nervous about creating too humid of environment... will see how it goes!

[@ReneeRomeo]

@@mattdalesio1443 No worries on my end although someone suggested a while back that I could have sprayed the pressure treated lumber with a sealer first. I don't know if that would trap moisture though. It's worth a little research. My thought was that I'd rather have it dry out between rain storms than have the rain water bead up on the wood and stay there. Without direct sunshine, I think it's a real possibility. Best wishes with your project too, Renee

[@mattdalesio1443]

@@ReneeRomeo yeah, I was thinking about that too. One opinion says it may protect the joists another says it may cause damage by trapping water that enters from the top. lol decided to move forward without sealing joists and see what happens.

[@nardinaestrella1458]

Good on you girl you can do anything without a man. I'm looking for a tutorial video to build up covered roof of my existing deck 1.5 meter above the ground. Although I'm a female and at this very moment I'll be your follower . Thank you very much for your informative video.

[@joshandconcha8657]

How long did the whole process take you?

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Josh and Concha, If the weather cooperated, it would have taken 4 days (or a long weekend). One day for attaching the wood slope, 1-2 days for attaching metal panels & trim, and 1-2 days day for installing the gutter system. I know there are several outfit changes but I did this in the Fall and it was particularly rainy and cold last year. I didn't feel like any part of this job was difficult but you do need a helper (or two, depending upon length) to lift the metal panels in place and to install the gutter system. My panels and gutters were 16 feet long at the widest points. I saved thousands by DIY-ing this project. So, I had money left over to furnish the space too! All the best with your project, Renee

[@kyleedooley7970]

Water away from house honey always

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi Kylee, Agreed... but in my case I was able to tie into the underground drainage for the house (via gutters that I installed below the roofing system) and all the walls remain dry , as well as the foundation. I made my situation work for me and managed to add a beautiful architectural feature that looks like crown molding - not to mention being able to fill up my backyard pond every time it rains. Thank you for the feedback. Others can use this information for their planning. All the best, Renee

[@kyleedooley7970]

That's awesome I'm glad it continues to work for you.

[@erickjason9092]

07:26 He just barely caught the screw into the wood! oops

[@ReneeRomeo]

LOL It's still hanging strong!

[@zalllon]

Roof means on top, ceiling is under

[@ReneeRomeo]

Hi zalllon, Yes but Google likes the word "roof" better so that's why I went with it. I'm just trying to target how people are searching for this term. There is a method to all of my internet madness. 😉 Renee

[@tomb1734]

Nice job but I would NEVER run water towards your house (brick is NOT waterproof) no mater what this would be a recipe for disaster with water entering your home.

[@ReneeRomeo]

Tom, It's been working out great due to my water mitigation plan with gutters. All the run off goes to my backyard pond and the waterfowl are so happy! Renee

[@deplorable_2024]

Do not slope to brick if you live in a climate where moisture can freeze in the bricks.

[@ReneeRomeo]

I seal the walls and the floor every year and have fans running to keep the area moisture free. Perfecto!

[@warrenlowe676]

Lost me at flex seal lmao

[@ReneeRomeo]

Well, it was just an unnecessary precaution. Water never gets on the brick. I was thinking that if there were backsplash during storms, this would help the brick to not get deluged. It turns out, it wasn't needed. The patio is still dry as a bone. Too bad you didn't watch until the end. Renee

[@jonathansheats3583]

Brick is in no way naturally or unnaturally waterproof. @3:15 this video just lost any credibility it could have had. No reason to watch any farther

[@ReneeRomeo]

Jonathon, Then you missed my gutter system that manages all the water collection and keeps this space completely dry...

[@MrGeroth]

Overkill.

[@ReneeRomeo]

Not to me! It's a great, dry, beautiful space that will last for decades. No skimping here! I'd rather over-engineer something than have it fail quickly. How would you have done it differently? Renee

[@stuartcameron935]

you need to work on breathing properly - its distracting

[@Cal-pk1kg]

I can’t listen to a woman talk about framing with the wrong dialogue

[@ReneeRomeo]

Cal7308, I never said that I was a professional csrpenter. Just a DIY-er getting things done. Surely, you have to appeeciate that - it's a darn handsome project. Is your wife building you this kind of stuff? My husband says he's the luckiest man in the world and he listens to my dialog all day long. I wouldn't change a thing, Renee

[@virgilk3447]

Dude, no need to be rude. Constructive criticism is another story..."Can't listen to a woman..." What's up with that? Would it be okay if it were a man? There are plenty of dudes on KZbin who make DIY carpentry/remodel videos that I wouldn't trust to build me a birdhouse. I've built and remodeled a total of three homes, and @ReneeRomeo made an informative and nifty DIY project video. In other words, I learned something. As they say, your results may vary.

[@ReneeRomeo]

@@virgilk3447 Thank you for this! I've been swinging a hammer since I was in my teens so I know I have a little something to add to the conversation. I may not know the terminology (sometimes "thing" suffices) but if I can share my thoughts, usually I can come up with something useful to say. I'm glad I could help, and you have helped me in return! All the best David, Renee

[@virgilk3447]

@@@ReneeRomeo Keep up the good work and service you do for DIYers. Never mind the detractors. Like I said, I've seen self-proclaimed "master carpenters" who have made KZbin vids that did things that were unsafe and questionable. You do a very thorough job that gives people the confidence they too can do it.

[@ReneeRomeo]

@@virgilk3447 Thank you for the very kind words. I'll continue on trying to help out... Renee