10 Star Trek Villains Who Were Actually Right

[@itsdantaylor]

2:21 I think what makes Sloane more admirable to me is that he doesn't despise the idealists. Heck he seems to admire them and seems to think they are what make the federation great. To the point he doesn't TWIST the idealists to his side, he plans around the idealists and counts on them being good, honest, and trustworthy people in his schemes. He seemingly wants to preserve that part of the Federation but is convinced you can't do that AND win wars because people will use it against you.

[@NixonRules963]

That's a fascinating point. He doesn't mock Bashir for being an idealist, he simply mocks the idea that Bashir as an idealist looks down on him. Sloane knows his goal is to actually protect and in a way empower the idealists by neutralizing threats to the Federation under the table and behind the scenes. That way the idealists can go on believing in the righteous cause of Starfleet and the Federation while being safe and secure from internal and external threats and they're not exposed to the reality of galactic politicking.

[@Brasswatchman]

I really did like that about Sloan. The fallen idealist who became the bad man in the shadows so that others wouldn't have to.

[@DoctorX17]

@@Brasswatchman Yeah. Bad but not _evil_

[@SamaritanPrime]

Sloan is the kind of guy to be like “someone has to get their hands dirty; might as well be me.”

[@davidlewis5312]

to quote Wedge Antilles in Wraith Squadron Some battles are won with daggers in dark alleys, we NEED those daggers.

[@ralfhtg1056]

And where is Captain Benjamin Maxwell??? He also belongs on this list as it also turned out he was absolutely right about the Cardassians!

[@AdmiralKleinStarfleetCommand]

Beat me to it

[@GusMcGuire]

@@AdmiralKleinStarfleetCommand I agree. Perhaps it's because that episode ends with Captain Picard openly acknowledging that Starfleet is aware that Maxwell was ultimately correct in his assessment of the situation. The others are all painted as villains in their respective stories.

[@emsleywyatt3400]

I was going to mention him as well.

[@deaks25]

Oooo I hadn’t thought of that. Good call.

[@rex290]

He was correct about the Cardassians but he was incorrect about how he handled it, which was the point of the episode.

[@axnyslie]

Q is perceived as a villain by Picard and starfleet but in reality he simply saw humanity's potential and was trying to advance them along by getting them to put their ego in check. His antics and tests on the Enterprise crew was to make them realize what was really at stake in exploring the Universe. It was summarized best in his quote from the episode Q Who?: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

[@101Mant]

I'm not sure how screwing with starfleet captains advances humanity. Maybe they over used him but it seemed at lot of writers portrayed him as more bored and amusing himself than having a higher goal. Particularly as things went on the Q seem less enlightened and more egotistical and petulant. When he shows up on Lower Decks and they basically tell him to get lost because they are done with his with his shit it felt about right. I haven't seen Picard though so maybe that show him in w better light.

[@axnyslie]

I can recall two times when Q was helpful to Picard. In the episode Tapestry when Picard died and Q gave him the option to change his past to prevent his death, but by doing so he changes his timeline to where he was now a junior science officer who has led an unremarkable career doing routine work. Also the finale All Good Things when the anomaly forced Picard to consider possibilities he would not have before to solve the paradox and save the galaxy. Q congratulates Picard in the end for being able to think in multiple timelines simultaneously to solve the puzzle, which was proof that humanity can still evolve, much to his surprise. "For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulae, but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence."

[@Wolf-ln1ml]

@@axnyslie _"I can recall two times when Q was helpful to Picard."_ I see Q more as a spoiled, immature child that's playing around with what it perceives to be toys. Playing around like that _will_ lead to moments where the toy would "benefit" if it were real, just as there will be moments where the toy would suffer horribly. Children also play favourites - they can treat one toy more favourably than another. They can also be fickle - favour a toy one day, and not care at all about it the next. This gets even more extreme when there are no consequences - and it gets dialed back quickly when there _are_ consequences. All of that fits perfectly with Q's behaviour towards... well, pretty much anyone he's interacted with. Remember that episode where Q was cast out by the continuum and made human - and where that energy species attacked the Enterprise to get to him and torture him in retaliation for what he'd done to them, and how, when he got his powers back, bis *_immediate_* reaction was to turn the tables on them again? (yeah, he stopped when the other Q wagged his finger at him and brought up some excuse, but that's again just the reaction to the threat of consequences; the _only_ moment where he actually showed some maturity was when he decided to sacrifice himself to stop the attack on the Enterprise by the aliens that were after him) Effectively, I see very little difference between Q and Trelaine from TOS, with Q just being a _little_ more mature, kind of like a 10-12 year old instead of the 5-6 year old that Trelaine was (in terms of maturity).

[@jointedlimb]

I regularly use this line when I argue to people who are "offended"

[@scottboswell6406]

@@101Mant The same sort of thing happened on DS9!

[@toriasygramul7128]

I never thought of Sloan as a villain, because I totally agree with his statement to Dr.Bashir in Inter arma enim silent leges:"The Federation needs men like you, Doctor. Men of conscience, men of principle… men who can sleep at night. You're also the reason Section 31 exists. Someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong."

[@SnowyRVulpix]

He was definitely a villain and he was wrong. That role goes to Picard, Sisko, Etc… Starfleet can protect people without black ops

[@greyshadow9498]

@@SnowyRVulpix Sisko literally tried to trick the Romulans into a war they wanted no part in, and when the deception failed and it lead to assassination, he happily covered it up! He also nuked a planet because Michael Eddington hurt his feelings... Both very heroic... 🙄 Picard actively took part in several black Ops operations... The other "heroes" of Trek have all done questionable things "for the greater good." Where exactly do YOU draw the line?

[@JDWtri]

Yeah the argument presented in this video that says Section 31 needed to exist is just wrong. The stuff with Romulans doesn’t matter because the Dominion War is about to end and the next thing that happens with them is Romulus exploding. The peace was inevitable at that point. It turns out the same regardless.

[@greyshadow9498]

@@JDWtri The Dominion War ended BECAUSE Section 31 existed. If they didn't exist, nobody introduces the morphagenic virus that forces the Founders into surrender. How many more would have died or how would the war ultimately end if Section 3w didn't exist?

[@davidlewis5312]

@@SnowyRVulpix go watch Chain of Command

[@hammerman199374]

Just want to mention that Terry O'Quinn (Admiral Pressman) is completely underrated as an actor and should be in all the things.

[@YesTHATJohnSmith]

*TOO* right, sir! Mr. O'Quinn was ALSO excellent in X-Files!

[@JymDyer]

Well, he was featured very well in _Lost_.

[@jorahtheexplorer3262]

Isn't he in everything already anyway? I don't think there wss a single 90s/00s TV series he didn't have a role in

[@tomstamford6837]

You got that right. The only reason I watch reruns of JAG is in case he's in an episode. Okay... Catherine Bell too!

[@SithLordAnakin]

He was great in LOST and im glad he was there till the end.

[@gameindustryinsider6450]

This list should be called, “villains where you can sympathize with their motivations” - aka. well written ones.

[@jv-lk7bc]

maybe even “villains whose motivations you can sympathize with” if we're going to bring up good writing ;)

Except Maxwell and Pressmen weren't the villains. They were 100% right.

[@img00]

You left out Jellico. Not only right that the Cardassians were up to something, he managed to prevent an invasion AND get Picard back in the process.

[@sergioaccioly5219]

Jellico is my favorite captain in the entire XXIV century. Hedoesn't belong in the list of villains. Riker's actions in that episode, though...

[@MateriaMaster]

Jellico doesn't fit here, he was a hard-ass, not a villain. Cpt. Maxwell from the episode "The Wounded" is a MUCH better fit.

[@img00]

@@sergioaccioly5219 agree completely though at the time, Jellico was seen as a bad guy by most of the fans but I think that in the end many have indeed come to see that Riker was by far the bigger problem

[@katherineberger6329]

Jellico is an antagonist, but not a villain.

[@jeancaron9325]

Jellico is Not a Villain.

[@sureshmukhi2316]

Are we talking specific villains or species as a whole? 1. The Horta was thought of as evil but in reality she was protecting her children from the miners who were destroying her eggs. 2. Species 8472 were minding their own fluidic space until the Borg attacked them. Only then did they retaliate.

[@MarginalSC]

8472 were rather indiscriminate in their initial response.

[@sureshmukhi2316]

@@MarginalSC they attacked Borg ships and planets. Only when Janeway allied with the Borg did they consider the Federation a threat.

[@MrBottlecapBill]

@@sureshmukhi2316 True but they did threaten to purge the galaxy, not just the borg or federation. It's kinda hard to come back from that kind of zealotry. It tends to create enemies. That same silliness is going on in wars right now.

[@sureshmukhi2316]

@@MrBottlecapBill From "In The Flesh" BOOTHBY: Explain why you attacked our realm, hand in hand with the Borg. JANEWAY: At the time, we didn't realise the Borg had started the war against you. We forged a temporary alliance with them because we thought you were the threat. SEVEN: Your galaxy will be purged. Sound familiar? BULLOCK: We were only trying to defend ourselves. TUVOK: If that's true, why are you still in our galaxy? Your conflict with the Borg ended over a year ago. JANEWAY: Why re-create Starfleet, masquerade as humans? It looks to me like you're the ones planning an invasion. The truth. BULLOCK: Don't answer her. She's manipulating us. ARCHER: If you won't answer, I will. BULLOCK: Commander. ARCHER: Our mission is to infiltrate your home world, to place operatives in the highest levels of Starfleet, monitor your military installations. It's a reconnaissance mission, nothing more. CHAKOTAY: We should listen to her, Captain. They're being driven by fear just like we are. Unless everything you said on our date was just part of an act. ARCHER: It wasn't. BULLOCK: Enough! We must not negotiate with these creatures. BOOTHBY: Sit down, Admiral. BULLOCK: Sir. BOOTHBY: I said sit down, or I'll knock you right on your human butt. BULLOCK: You've been seduced by them, both of you. ARCHER: I've had a chance to see through human eyes and I'm beginning to wonder, are they really so violent? What if we're wrong? BULLOCK: We can't risk trusting them. ARCHER: You'd rather risk another war? BOOTHBY: Keep talking, son. CHAKOTAY: Archer's right. We've got to set aside our preconceptions about each other. Granted, our species didn't meet under the best of circumstances, but maybe we can make first contact again. Maybe this time we'll get it right

[@sureshmukhi2316]

@@MrBottlecapBill From "In The Flesh" BOOTHBY: Explain why you attacked our realm, hand in hand with the Borg. JANEWAY: At the time, we didn't realise the Borg had started the war against you. We forged a temporary alliance with them because we thought you were the threat. SEVEN: Your galaxy will be purged. Sound familiar? BULLOCK: We were only trying to defend ourselves. TUVOK: If that's true, why are you still in our galaxy? Your conflict with the Borg ended over a year ago. JANEWAY: Why re-create Starfleet, masquerade as humans? It looks to me like you're the ones planning an invasion. The truth. BULLOCK: Don't answer her. She's manipulating us. ARCHER: If you won't answer, I will. BULLOCK: Commander. ARCHER: Our mission is to infiltrate your home world, to place operatives in the highest levels of Starfleet, monitor your military installations. It's a reconnaissance mission, nothing more. CHAKOTAY: We should listen to her, Captain. They're being driven by fear just like we are. Unless everything you said on our date was just part of an act. ARCHER: It wasn't. BULLOCK: Enough! We must not negotiate with these creatures. BOOTHBY: Sit down, Admiral. BULLOCK: Sir. BOOTHBY: I said sit down, or I'll knock you right on your human butt. BULLOCK: You've been seduced by them, both of you. ARCHER: I've had a chance to see through human eyes and I'm beginning to wonder, are they really so violent? What if we're wrong? BULLOCK: We can't risk trusting them. ARCHER: You'd rather risk another war? BOOTHBY: Keep talking, son. CHAKOTAY: Archer's right. We've got to set aside our preconceptions about each other. Granted, our species didn't meet under the best of circumstances, but maybe we can make first contact again. Maybe this time we'll get it right

[@Parasmunt]

This clip reminds me how brilliant the creators of DS9 were in bringing to life a huge interstellar war and political theatre on such a small budget. Love went into the making of that show.

[@navyreviewer]

I truly believe they missed a great story in DS9 by not bring back Maxwell. With OBrien there it would have been even better. He was stated to be one of the Federation's best soldiers. He could have come back as some kind of Douglas MacArthur like character. "I told you so. If they had just listened to me instead we wouldnt be in this mess. Well, now I have returned to fix their mess. History has vindicated me."

[@realjoecast]

Maxwell was right but he was also in prison for killing many during a time there was peace. It wasn't like Paris who got caught on his first mission and didn't get the chance to kill some cardies. But I agree they did miss the opportunity to at least bring it up even though there was no real connection to that situation and the dominion wars.

[@paul_8472]

It would have been cool to see Captain Maxwell approached by section 31 in DS9 to join them.

[@Anthony-jo7up]

Would have been really cool to see Maxwell back, the character EXACTLY the same. But due to the Dominion War, instead of being lambasted, he is applauded for his heroism and proactivity in defending the Federation. Would have been a fascinating idea.

[@davidlewis5312]

@@realjoecast I honestly would be more disappointed with Starfleet if the moment the Dominion War started they didn't pardon every captured Maquis and make them military advisors or re-instating their ranks.

@@realjoecast Except there was no peace, it was all a lie. If there was actual peace, the Cardassians wouldn't have been secretly arming their outposts in the first place. Maxwell was absolutely correct.

[@ajaiiz]

What about Captain Maxwell of the Phoenix? He was right about the Cardassians.

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

Like Captain Picard said, his mission was to preserve the peace, a peace that both sides benefited from. In the end Picard realized that Maxwell was right, but that he went about proving his suspicions in the wrong way. Most likely he was allowed to quietly retire from Star-Fleet and was recruited into Section 31's Black Fleet.

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Being right doesn’t excuse killing hundreds of Cardassians in time of peace.

[@gbkworf]

I always believed Pressman was working for 31. And he was always right. The Federation needed that cloak. In fact, watching the enterprise de phase cloak made my boot strings hard. But than the Federation has a habit of doing very bad treaties. Look what they did later with the Cardassian treaty resulting in the creation of the Maqui.

[@DocWolph]

Section 31 is a cop out. Since S31 did not exist in production before DS9, it makes more sense that the Admiralty had been running Black Operations, stuff NO ONE was supposed to know about outside of specific individuals and small groups. You don't need a "Secret Police" to do this, just people who are not apt to treason, like Riker and Picard. "The Pegasus" is a case of where people, with no idea or have unrealistically contrary ideas of how a military works, are writing a situation that is extremely grey but easily resolved simply by "following orders because you are smart enough to understand why those orders were given" and "If you are not caught there is no crime". Welcome to Black Operations.

[@Skyfire_The_Goth]

@@DocWolph Thing is we know from DS9 and subsequent series that S31 had been there from the beginning. So it does make sense that the Pegasus incident, and Pressmans subsequent attempt at retrieving the device in a clandestine manner was an S31 operation. It fits better than either he was working on his own or he was backed by the admiralty (probably some of the admiralty backed him through their S31 connections), I mean it isn't like an S31 operative is just going to come up and say "Hi, I'm Adm. Pressman and I'm working for Section 31." They are more likely to try to hide that fact as much as possible from anyone, only revealing themselves to people that they or S31 in general think would be at least open and sympathetic to their cause. Is it a retcon? Sure, but it is a retcon that makes sense and actually fits with the situation.

[@hellfish2309]

@@DocWolphthere’s a way to have cake and eat it too: Section 31 could be quietly concealing and supporting hardliner militarist elements within the starfleet leadership, thereby moving the Overton window from Spock pacifism without forcing an explicit shift in mission statement Everyone thinks Section 31 is a Tywin Lannister or even a Melisandre; but really they’re Littlefinger or Varys only their doctrine is more clear to the audience

[@gbkworf]

I'll reply to my own post: We know from Enterprise S31 existed since before the Federation. Pressman was either working directly for them knowingly, or at the least was being funded by them. But a phased cloak was most definitely a S31 operation.

[@charlesh8420]

Besides all that, with the Federation always being at the edge of war with the Romulans, having cloaking tech ready to go is only good planning

[@DrewPicklesTheDark]

I remember the first time I saw The Pegasus it quickly became one of my favorite episodes since it not explains why Starfleet doesn't use cloaking in a way that makes sense, but also because the episode's "bad guy" didn't even do anything wrong.

[@MountainDewComacho494]

I think you are absolutely right about Admiral Pressman. That is one reason Star Trek still resonates. The bad guys aren't comic book villains. They are not all bad. Many times, it is just the methods that produce the madness.

[@lawrence5584]

There's also another interesting point with Seska. A large part of the issue between her and Janeway was that Janeway said giving fed technology in trade to other races was a no go, where as Seska was about getting home and surviving no matter the cost. Yet years later, in an offhanded comment, Janeway admitted that by that point they were trading and giving away federation technology inspite of what she's said and claimed years prior.

[@logicplague]

A few years alone, and a few dead crew will do that to you.

[@perfectsplit5515]

Yes, I agreed with Seska the Cardassian. Her tactics were unacceptable to Captain Janeway's principles. But her ends were just. I actually thought her ends did justify her means. "Federation 'rules'" "If this were a Cardassian ship, we would be home by now." "We will need allies; powerful allies"

[@courtesyarlabon5386]

@@perfectsplit5515 Well, Seska was an agent of the Cardassians, but her orders were to pose as a Starfleet officer and no orders were given by her superiors to trade technology to unknown civilizations. Strict military discipline is necessary for a ship to function, regardless of issues with the Captains previous orders.

[@Kronosfobi]

Seska's role at the start was the same of Shane's from TWD. She adapted to her new situation, saw what needed to be done to get out of said situation, but was bound by morality of others that did not share her perspective. Only for them to do exactly the same if not worse in the future, *after* she is long dead.

[@markunger1098]

This is interesting from a story writing perspective; with most if not all of these villains the writers sat down and asked what they would do is they perceived a threat, and then acted on what would need to be done to mitigate that threat if you had no moral rules to follow or different moral rules (they’re alien species so why would they have our moral code?). Thus, villains who are right. If you want to write good believable bad guys then this is a good place to start.

[@BoundyMan]

The Marquis should have been included on this list. They were fighting for the rights of Federation Citizens to live the life they wanted when the Federation neglected their own citizens needs above peace with the Cardassians.

[@davebeattie9573]

The problem with the Maquis is that the peace treaty saw an exchange of worlds between the Federation and the Cardassian Union. Some Federation worlds were turned over to the Cardassians, while Cardassian worlds were ceded to the Federation. This created the demilitarized zone, where neither sides fleets could operate. The inhabitants of those worlds had a choice, stay where they were and live under the rules of another government, or move to remain with your government of choice. Those who stayed in the demilitarised zone made there choice knowing the full ramifications of that choice, and then some of them took up arms against their new government because they didn't like the facts of that choice. Remember that the Maquis were not an official organisation. They claimed to represent the people in the demilatarised zone but they never asked those people what they wanted. They were imposing their will on everyone else, regardless of the wishes of those people. Another thing to consider is that on some of those now Fereration worlds were Cardassians who also chose to stay and live under the Federation, and on those worlds they too had their equivalent of the Maquis. This was a war between paramilitaries with the claims that they are fighting for the wishes of their respective peoples. Are you extending the same curtesy to those Cardassian paramilitaries that you are extending to the Maquis? My family is orignally from Northern Ireland, and I still have relatives living there today, and so I am very familiar with the idea of paramilitaries claiming to represent the interests of their respective people. But when those same people wanted peace and took diplomatic measures to secure that peace, those same paramilitaries continued their wars against their percieved enemies, when all anyone outside those groups wanted was to live free from the violence, under whatever government happened to be in place.

[@icecold9511]

​@@davebeattie9573 Their choice was to give up everything they had worked for. The fedies were absolutely wrong

[@KingOfMadCows]

Those planets were in dispute for decades. Starfleet warned the colonists not to settle them in the first place. The Federation should have either never allowed any of their citizens to settle there or withdraw Starfleet protection from the area and let any settlers know they'd be on their own.

[@karencarter18042]

That is a group of people this list is one person

[@NicCage-eq9tn]

There are no material needs in the federation. All of those colonists had a choice to move elsewhere in the Federation where they would have been taken care of. Why you'd want to live in the middle of nowhere when you could live on a paradise planet like earth is beyond me. They were just being stubborn and fighting a war they had no chance of winning. Surprise surprise when they got completely wiped out. Play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

[@tazman2253]

the problem with Durass is that his actions went against everything Klingons believe in.

[@biocapsule7311]

And he isn't even correct. Duras does what he does not because he understand the state of the empire but he overestimation of his own BS. Even if he succeed his vision wouldn't be any good for the empire either. It's like Brexiteers and Brexit, based on fraudulent perspective of what is needed and competence.

[@MrBottlecapBill]

@@biocapsule7311 That's probably the worst example you could have used because much like this video.......as time goes on the Brexiteers are being proven right more and more lol. Just like the villians of trek. And no I'm not from the UK.

[@biocapsule7311]

@@MrBottlecapBill Hahahahha.. proven right?? Where?? When?? hahaha Yeah... right you are not from UK. If that is so, then you are even dumber then the Brexiteers. They at least have the excuse of being gaslight by their media, what's yours? It's been 7+ years since the referendum and Brexiteers who are desperate to find something good to talk about can't even point to anything that isn't fraudulent and neither can you. Feel free to list the 'more and more'. I am from one of the country Brexiteers wants to 'model' themselves after. And even from the start we knew the Brexiteers just make things up (I as a layperson could demolish practically every point they made), the UK basically committed economic suicide. So go on... where is the 'more and more' you claim? Hahaha... entertain me.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

​@biocapsule7311 brexit was a good idea the politicans are the issue

[@biocapsule7311]

@@paulrasmussen8953 No it is NOT. If you ever think that it is. It only means that you know nothing about the process of leaving, or how the UK economy works etc. And which politicians? *Because the Arch Brexiteers are the real and only issues.* They can promise *ANYTHING,* because they don't understand any of it and think other people will deliver their promise for them and they get to claim the credit. If it fails, they just blame everything on everyone else. There is leaving the EU, and there is Brexit. Brexit is so counter-factual that it's a complete fraudulent endeavor. No one in the world no matter how competent can deliver the Brexit that was promise because *It doesn't work the way Brexiteer describes.* It never had, and everyone not a Brexiteer has told them as much. It's like telling someone 1+1 is 2 and getting the reply of it's just an opinion and you have to believe in 3 hard enough. If they leave on the terms they fully understood it would be one thing. So be it. But Brexit is a lie sold to the public that never understood, and now the few sad marks are still thinking there's some hidden unicorn that was deny them. There isn't. Feel free to point out which part was ever a 'good idea'.

[@Brasswatchman]

8:50 Okay, here's the thing about Oh -- I'm pretty sure she wasn't in her right mind. My theory is that the Definitely-Not-Reapers-From-Mass-Effect knew exactly what they were doing when they left that message, which was actually a psychic virus meant to encourage conflict between organic and synthetic life. (An effect somewhat akin to Indoctrination.) Basically, they were setting up the circumstances to make sure they'd be summoned back to the galaxy. Organics find message, organics go crazy and start a war with synths, synths get desperate, synths call in the big guns, Can't Believe It's Not Reapers harvests synths and wipes out organics. Rinse, repeat. I think it's telling that virtually everyone who came in contact with the message/virus turned homicidal at some juncture.

[@GSBarlev]

I thought The Admonition was the synth-only future from _Discovery_ S02. The alternative would be that the writers rooms neither talked to each other or watched their own sister shows, which... actually could also have been the case.

[@MrBottlecapBill]

Use the media to drum up the desired results. IT's always worked quite well honestly.

[@Brasswatchman]

@@GSBarlev That wouldn't make sense unless time travel is somehow involved, though. The Zhat Vash indicated that the Admonition was ancient, and involved moving *eight entire frigging stars* into exact orbits as a beacon. Memory Alpha says the message is at least 200,000 to 300,000 years old. So what are we talking about -- some machine from a potential future timeline we saw going back in time, becoming super-powerful, and then trying to make sure its future came about? How very Terminator. Anyway, that said, even if the message does have something to do with that particular plot thread, there's no reason it couldn't *also* work as a psychic virus the way I described. Acting to deliberately turn organics and synthetics against each other, perhaps for ideological reasons as well as for the benefit of the "synth alliance."

[@Brasswatchman]

@@MrBottlecapBill Sorry. The media? I'm not sure I follow.

[@GSBarlev]

@@Brasswatchman Yeah, I did some reading after posting my reply. Basically the only satisfying connection I could find was a fan theory that the Sphere had data on the Synth Alliance, and the no-organic-life future was the result of Control joining it. But that too seems like a stretch.

[@sergioaccioly5219]

I wonder why after "In the pale mooonlight" Section 31 didn't try to recruit Sisko. His actions in that episode were perfectly in line with their policies and methods.

[@genlando327plays2]

Who says they didn't? Not only did Sisko tell Bashir to cover up the initial encounter with Sloan, he was promoted to a leadership in Starfleet Intelligence just before the coup attempt on Earth (consequently during the exact time they were doing research into the changeling genome and developing the virus they would ultimately use)... there's pretty significant incidental evidence that Sisko could have in fact been part of Section 31, with or possibly even without his knowledge and consent

[@Iowa2006]

Though I think Sisko would understand that the goals necessitate the means, I'm not sure he'd be ok with an entire organization existing for this. He is more of an 'in case of emergency, break glass'. S31 is more of a keep things always on hand and ready to go.

[@thejarredhog3936]

Cuz S31 are idiots who do alot more harm than good (at least on the screen.) They'd likely see Sisko as a threat than an ally.

[@StephenLeGresley]

I'm not sure Sisko ever told Starfleet what he did or at least the full scope of it.

[@genlando327plays2]

@@StephenLeGresley dunno. Pretty sure it's pretty heavily implied that his reputation for "any means necessary" is why Layton brought him to Earth in the first place

[@StillSaber]

Benedict Comberpatch made an interesting Khan, but he also would have made an excellent Grand Admiral Thrawn or at least a younger Thrawn from Rebels.

[@sokagofferenginar8669]

He would have been good I've even found fan-made pictures of him as Thrawn.

[@StillSaber]

@@sokagofferenginar8669 Yeah, combine Benedict with Thrawn's VA, that would spell Trouble right there.

[@jv-lk7bc]

that whole Cumberbatch-Khan thing was idiotic.

[@Wilahelm2]

I would also add Captain Benjamin Maxwell from TNG's The Wounded. The man was right about the Cardassian's rearming and how the bureaucrats back on Earth we're totally out of touch with how things were on the frontier. If there is ever a list of the Federations biggest blunders the treaty with the Cardassian's has to go on top. The treaty wasn't worth the paper it was written on and yet it led to the rise of the Maquis and many good officers like Maxwell, Ro, and others to walk away from the Federation.

[@ReelMeurik]

Even Michael Eddington (who certainly did questionable things), saw the hypocrisy of the Federation. In comparing them to the Borg: "You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

[@Brasswatchman]

Maybe. But the Maquis putting pressure on the Cardassians is part of what made them desperate enough to side with the Dominion. Their actions ultimately made the Alpha Quadrant as a whole less secure.

[@chrish3305]

I was certain Maxwell would have been in this list

[@johnniejh2126]

I came here to say this. While Captain Maxwell was driven to an extreme opinion due to his grief, he was in correct that the Cardassians were 'up to something' that needed to be exposed. Plus the episode has brilliant performances from all the main actors in the story. Come on, Sean! Its a bloody CHEIF O'BRIEN EPISODE!

[@admcleo]

I thought Maxwell was an obvious number one, the fact that he isn't even on the list is baffling. He is like the poster boy for the "Villain who was 100% right" and that's even the point of his episode. Not only was he right, but he was victorious in a sense. He didn't get a war, but he did alert Star Fleet to the threat. Picard even has a Picard speech about him being right, how was that episode not number one?

[@DanteCorwyn]

With a bit of tweaking, I think it'd have been more interesting if Seska was discovered to be Cardassian, but turned out she wasn't the one leaking details to the Kazon. Maybe even let her be the one who discovers the real traitor, and saves Chakotay. Having ex-Marquis work with an (hopefully former) enemy could provide conflict and drama to the show. Worked with Garak after all.

[@scockery]

I might go farther than that...dump the Maquis premise entirely and Voyager takes on survivors of a Cardassian ship. But that raises the make-up expenses.

[@Brasswatchman]

Honestly, yeah, that could've worked better. Especially since - from what little I remember - Seska kinda sucked at being a spy.

[@casbot71]

Seska could have come out as a Cardassian operative and gotten amnesty from Janeway. The Marquis had to accept that Tuvok was a double agent, Seska was basically the same. She could have approached Tuvok first and confessed, and then he could inform the crew that she was also an undecover operative. Once they have accepted that, then it's slowly revealed that she wasn't Starfleet but... At the time of Voyagers stranding, the Federation and Cardassia were at peace and had similar goals with stopping the Marquis attacks on Cardassian settlers - they just had different methods..... And when you consider some of Sisko's actions, the methods did have similarities.

[@biocapsule7311]

Seska may have a point but I never understood her thought process regarding the Kazon. It's so foolish and out of character for Cardassian.

[@scottboswell6406]

One of the problems with Voyager was for me that they wrapped up the Marquis/Federation conflicts too quickly. If they could have found a way to keep her on the show, for a subversive point of view at times, that would have been wild!!

[@Oonagh72]

I always thought the “no cloaks” part of the treaty was just about the most idiotic idea. They knew the Romulans never keep their word? Why should we?

[@FS2K4Pilot]

Because we keep our word on principle. No further reason is needed. Moreover, the Romulans were keeping their end of the deal by and large or the Federation would’ve tossed the treaty. On top of that, the cloaking device must not give than much of an advantage, or the Romulans would’ve simply said “NOT!!!” as soon as the treaty was signed and stabbed the Federation in the back fatally with their cloaked ships. Obviously this never happened, so Starfleet must have proven themselves quite able to fight back effectively from even such a notionally disadvantaged position. But if you could make it so you didn’t HAVE to fight back simply by the stroke of a pen, why not do so?

[@MisterPuck]

It could be argued that the reason Federation sensor technology is so far ahead of others in their area is because of that treaty. Since they couldn’t fight cloaks with cloaks, they instead worked to remove the advantage all together, which has benefited them in many ways. That said, they never showed the phase cloaking device being destroyed in the episode, and I personally believe that Starfleet kept it and possibly even worked to perfect/develop it further in secret. If not Starfleet itself, Section 31 at least likely has it.

[@mnemnosyne206]

I remember quite recently it being pointed out that even though Starfleet continued to not develop cloaking devices after that, it still technically won them a political point. The Romulans are then aware that not only could Starfleet develop a cloaking device, they could develop one far better than theirs, which is modular and can be installed on any ship, and this, with a relatively small amount of resources and scientists, in secret. It showed them a very good reason to not break the treaty - because if they ever did, then Starfleet could very, very quickly put massive resources toward it and deploy those devices across their entire fleet, well within time to make a difference in any hypothetical war.

[@logicplague]

The real reason was because Gene said that "the good guys don't hide in darkness". Man obviously never had to hide from a threat, that darkness isn't particular about who it's helping.

[@TIMEtoRIDE900]

You would just need to paint the Starship flat black and turn off the lights. You can't see Jack in interstellar Space.

[@rossorat2306]

Regarding the Baku situation. There was no need for relocation. Could have just set up a colony on the other side of the planet. It was a village of 600 people, there are citys with 1000 X as many people, it definitely had plenty of space elsewhere

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

That would have been the best possible outcome, but most of the Son'a were more into this scheme for revenge rather than just gaining some temporary health benefits. Another thing, Riker and Troi couldn't have brought their son Thad to this planet? Not only because of its natural healing capabilities, but because the Ba'ku, despite looking so technologically inferior, were actually a highly advanced people who would bend over backwards to help Troi and Riker with whatever technological gizmo they needed to save their son.

[@Cdr2002]

Completely agreed

[@Brasswatchman]

YES! EXACTLY! THANK YOU! The entire plot hinges on people not realizing that planets are actually Really Big!

[@Brasswatchman]

​@@STSWB5SG1FAN Maybe they tried and it didn't work.

[@authorhenrypatterson]

Picard had suggested to the Admiral that the Son'a could establish a separate colony until a way could be found to collect the particles without making the planet uninhabitable for generations. The Admiral said, "It would take 10 years of normal exposure to begin to reverse their condition. Some of them wouldn't survive that long. Besides they don't want to live in the Briar Patch."

[@crismonlightning7542]

The thing you have to realise with Khan from Into Darkness is that this Khan was never discovered by Kirk in the episode of Space Seed. In that episode Khan was more pragmatic like Kelvin Khan. So in a way what happened in Star Trek 2 was because of Khan's resentment and one could argue insanity.

[@sokagofferenginar8669]

Having a good point doesn't always excuse one's actions if anything it could just turn more people against whatever point they're trying to make.

[@casbot71]

The Federation should have set up medical rehabilitation facilitates in the Briar patch. There's the rest of the Baccu's planet and the entire system to set up space stations with medical facilities. It's also still a self replenishing resource. And with it being in a Nebula far away from the Dominion front line, it could be well defended by having a hidden defence fleet. A fleet that could use the Riker manoeuvre to destroy enemy ships that couldn't signal others about that trick.

[@Enigmanaut]

Regarding the Treaty of Algeron: we know what the Federation gave up in that treaty, but what did they gain? If they agreed to such a severe concession for this treaty, one has to think they got a commensurately huge concession from the Romulans, or a lot of small ones.

[@BuhurtUK]

They got the Romulans out of some territory for this handicaps. Maybe some sort of telling of these events would put some perspective on it but on the surface it seems unbalanced.

[@Brasswatchman]

I get the sense that the Earth-Romulan War went *really* bad for the proto-Federation.

[@libraeotequever3pointoh95]

​@@BrasswatchmanEarth suffered early losses, yes. But various tellings indicate that faster and more powerful ships were developed and deployed in time to turn the tide. Eventually the first treaty was hammered out via non-visual communications. See also ST:TOS episode Balance of Terror

[@hedonismbot1508]

Picard stated that the treaty brought peace. Except that in other episodes, we've seen the Romulans brainwash a Starfleet officer into assassinating some diplomat, and meddle in Klingon politics with the intention of screwing up Klingon-Federation relations. So much for that...

[@paulrasmussen8953]

Never said what hence why there is so many issues with it. Frankly no military would ever allow such treaty to happen but gene was set in good guys not sneaking around

[@Brasswatchman]

Yeah, I can't agree about Duras. He and his entire family were thoroughly under the Romulans' thumb. Think about it -- wouldn't THEY have proof of who the real traitor was? All they'd have to do is release it through some back channel, and his family's honor would be toast. He might've had imperial ambitions, but that wouldn't have amounted to much when the Romulans had him on a leash.

[@alfdls138]

Duras had no honor. He did thing like a Ferengi

[@Brasswatchman]

@@alfdls138 Hell, he probably even got that poison from the Romulans too.

[@michaelramsey1299]

It’s also established in the episode he dies that he used Romulan explosives in his attempt on Gowron his sisters merely got caught openly allied with Romulans but it’s clear their family has been in league with them for quite awhile.

[@every116]

Completely agree. Duras's father was in league with the Romulans, he was in league with the Romulans, and so were his sisters.

[@0x8badbeef]

10:04 My #1 as well, Pressman. We should always develop technology. There is no guarantee our enemies will honor treaties. But I am not saying treaties are useless. They provide a buffer. I will bet Picard would have chosen a different path with Pressman and his technology if this episode occurred after he was captured and interrogated and tortured by the Cardassian officer Gul Madred. If I were Picard I would have kept it secret. This was the biggest mistake Picard has ever made. Picard had the opportunity to have kept it secret.

[@Brasswatchman]

Did he? I thought the Romulans had already found out about the Pegasus before Picard even got involved.

[@0x8badbeef]

@@Brasswatchman the Romulans did not know the Pegasus possessed such technology. It was just a ship as far as they were concerned.

[@Brasswatchman]

@@0x8badbeef I'll admit it's been forever since I've seen the episode. I probably shouldn't talk until I do again at some point.

[@0x8badbeef]

@@Brasswatchman I have to correct my statement as well. The Romulans did not know there was a ship inside the asteroid. The Romulans only knew Starfleet had an interest in the area due to some anomalous readings.

[@bubbagump2341]

Picard is tortured in "Chain of Command Part II" in season six and "The Pegasus" is in season 7 and so the events with Pressman happen AFTER the events with Gul Madred . . .

[@gwenever7286]

I think Pressman was right to do what he did. I have always thought that Star Fleet agreeing to not develop and use cloaking tech while those around them could was one of the dumbest things any diplomat or starfleet council could agree to. Would any organisation really hamstring themselves in such a fashion?

[@kirkdarling4120]

When everyone else had it? You're right. They should certainly have developed it while Federation politicians figured out the best moment to toss out the treaty. The destruction of Romulus was certainly such a time.

[@every116]

We don't know what the Federation agreed to or what they got in return for agreeing to it. Arms reduction treaties are pretty common in our world, from the Washington Naval Treaty to the various nuclear reduction treaties signed throughout the years. In all cases the governments agreed to abide by those treaties and it isn't up to individual officers to decide that they don't like it and to violate them on their own.

[@Regfife]

Except he nearly destroyed his ship in doing it. If you're going to pull a behind-the-scenes stunt like that, you have to follow two rules: 1. Don't endanger anyone. 2. Don't get caught.

[@Kronosfobi]

In real life we had London Naval Rearmament treaty, where each signatory had to limit their number of ships AND the payload of said ships to a certain extent below of British. Ironically, it included British, as some of the restrictions were universal. Having one of THE largest and strongest navies in the world at the time, British decided to shackle themselves and their allies under the hopes it would prevent a naval build up of rival powers. So yes, we do have treaties that are made to hamstring oneself for the sake of keeping the peace.

[@Karthos1000]

I generally have to disagree with a lot of these, because as you point out "the methods they used". The one creed all these villains seem to believe is that "the ends justify the means," whereas I think one of the major Star Trek messages is that "how you get there matters just as much as where you end up." However noble your goals, using murder and genocide to accomplish them is just not acceptable. Also, didn't Admiral Pressman top your list of the Worst Star Trek Admirals a little while back?

[@clefsan]

Re: Pressman: Having a valid point about something (like Treaty of Algeron; development of cloaking tech) and being a bad Admiral are not necessarily mutually exclusive things, imho.

[@davidlewis5312]

I half agree with you. But you ask the wrong question: are the methods used NECESSARY to achieve the goal presented or are these goals able to be achieved a less costly way, or are these goals really worth achieving? Morality is a fruit cake. It is artifical, looks pretty on a table, and probably bad for you in the long run. That doesn't make it worthless. But one should not exclude a trick because it is dirty. I do agree most of these don't fly in that setup. 10) Duras is a pawn of the Romulans. At best, he is simply wanting to keep an old broken system going regardless of the reality that Klingon culture needs to change. 7) Seska wanted to make it home and did everything in her power to alienate the crew of the only ship going that way. Her best choice was to sit back, shut up, steal as much as she could, and play nice. 6) Xindi were kind of fools. Yeah most of them face turn in the end but they were played for fools and never seemed to consider 'maybe we should contact these humans while they are technologically inferior to us and open a dialogue' 5) Ru'fo didn't care about the research or even his people's survival. At best the latter was a secondary goal. He wanted revenge on the Baku and revenge is a shit motive. It leads nowhere and gets you nothing 3) I haven't watched Prodigy but it seems there were other ways around this problem as presented much like the Xindi 2) Commadore Oh. First off the Mars Operation disqualifies her hard.

[@Averagegunenthusiast]

Those lost while Voyager was lost in the Delta quadrant could just have easily been lost in the Dominion war. They were probably safer in the Delta Quadrant than fighting the Dominion and the masques would definitely have been killed off.

[@TomBelknapRoc]

I'm so glad you mention Commadore Oh! That's part of what's been bugging me about that season: who exactly is the bad guy, here? The season even ends on what feels like a moral footing, but I can't really figure out what it is. And all of a sudden, Picard's a robot? After the robots almost killed us? But we were saved by robots? And.. flowers, for some reason?

[@Brasswatchman]

The ones not killing children. Edit: yes, newly made androids count as children.

[@null6634]

And like the brain bugs in Season 1 of TNG, The Reapers will never be mentioned again.

[@Brasswatchman]

@@null6634 Eh, I'm sure the tie-in novels will pick them up.

[@davidlewis5312]

Oh's strategy included the false flag operation on Mars which resulted in the lack of ships to evacuate her own homeworld. Oh is a fool and a monster.

[@Brasswatchman]

@@davidlewis5312 Or just brainwashed. I'm sure she considered it a worthwhile sacrifice for "the greater good" or something.

[@angbald]

I am about in the middle of my all of Star Trek watch. Almost at the end of season 1 of DS9 and season 6 of TNG. This is my first time watching them and am absolutely in love. I am watching in air date order so as to see them as they were seen originally. Doing it because I loved strange new worlds and discovery and would like to watch Picard. I know that one has loads and loads and loads of references and having never seen a single DS9 or Voyager episode, I would be handicapped.

[@timmauldin7216]

I watched from Enterprise to Voyager in chronological order a few years ago.

[@Cdr2002]

Sounds like you’ve been having a fun watch through!

[@jamesjarrait2231]

Jealous here. DS9 starts slowly and then hits hard. Amazing show with an arc that goes from beginning to end.

[@jv-lk7bc]

can safely skip Voyager

[@Cdr2002]

@@jv-lk7bc one of its cast is a main character in Picard, which OP is interested in

[@baystated]

The caretaker array bringing voyager across the galaxy nearly killed everyone on board. The confidence that they'd have survived the trip back is dubious.

[@tigerbread78]

I dunno, maybe run the shields right off the powergrid? They'd only need to bolster the strength for about 10 seconds.

[@Brasc]

To be fair, Voyager would have actually been expecting a cross galaxy trip if they used the array to go back, which they certainly hadn't when they got pulled from the Badlands to the Delta Quadrant. They would have been able to 'batten down the hatches', as it were, and be more prepared for the transit.

[@frantisekvrana3902]

They wouldn't. Because they would not have a safe backstop. The array was designed to pull ships towards itself and safely stop them. Imagine having a glass on a rubber band. You yank the band, which launches the glass towards you. You then catch the glass. Now imagine you start with the glass in your hand and using the rubber band as a slingshot to launch the glass away. The same would happen to Voyager.

[@thePsiMatrix]

Also; the Equinox proves the Caretaker wasn't too successful in returning ships either. They were either not sent back and he basically told them to shove off or they were dumped in the wrong section of the galaxy which would be one reason why they never had to deal with the Borg and/or why they didn't encounter the same races between Voyager and Equinox's travellings (why neither ship got mentioned to the other).

[@jfbeam]

@@thePsiMatrixThe Equinox likely followed a different path back. Janeway wasn't exactly making a bee-line for home; she was much more of an explorer. They (E) encountered the aliens they used for fuel to greatly boost their propulsion systems, so it's possible they jumped right past many of the races Voyager encountered. (Of course, Voyager eventually did catch up to them... thanks to Kess, some Borg tech, and a few other tricks.)

[@Dan19870]

Perhaps the then Captain Pressman should have conducted his vessels secret phase cloaking experiments on the other side of Federation space away from the Klingons and the Romulans. Perhaps if the Cardassians saw a ship disappear from sensors they might question if the vessel was their to begin with.

[@ApolloRacer]

What about Capt. Benjamin Maxwell? In "The Wounded," he suspected that Cardassians were ferrying weapons aboard freighters. His methods for going after them were questionable, but he WAS correct, and the Cardassians were smuggling weapons.

[@StephenLeGresley]

Michael Eddington - True he had a bit of hero complex but he always tried to protect the lives of his people and live apart from the Federation and it's conflicts. Kruge - He did some despicable things, but you can easily understand how he would see the Genesis device as a threat. With it Starfleet could wipe out any Klingon planet and replace it with Federation ones. The Founders - Basically Section 31 and the Obsidian Order proved they were right to fear solids. Both groups developed technology to either control or kill Changelings. And the Founders had enough of a history of violence and prejudice against them to have valid reasons to be defensive. I also think theres a good list to be done of villains who maybe weren't right, but you could understand their point of view.

[@jimdanielson272]

Kruge was right for sure. And Pressman.

[@brentbarr498]

You forgot about Capt. Benjamin Maxwell of the USS Phoenix... his foreshadowing of the Cardassians was SPOT ON...

[@charlescooney9281]

Maxwell could have gotten the federation into a new sustained conflict which is what the federation didn’t want. Maybe blowing up that ship did help but almost got the federation into another conflict.

[@paulrasmussen8953]

​@charlescooney9281 a conflict now or an even worse conflict later. Whats your choice?

[@NMiller_]

A well developed villain is typically just the hero of a different story. It's not about right or wrong, good or evil. More often it is Us or Them.

[@katherineberger6329]

Disagree. A well-developed villain has reasons for doing everything they do, but that doesn't mean they're "the hero of a different story." Sometimes the things they do are just despicable.

[@NMiller_]

@katherineberger6329 I would agree that many villains do have purely evil intent, but I feel those are easier to dismiss. Conflicted villains trying to overcome the odds to fight for their own people/ideologies are more compelling, in my opinion.

[@Mintylight]

@@katherineberger6329 Meh those types of villians are easily brushed off as being mentally ill (in other words victims of something bigger than them), or simply cartoony. They're not interesting, with the exception of the Joker. He's just a dick because it amuses him and he's still interesting. One gotta remember though that, in case of humans at least, everyone does things because they believe it is beneficial for them, in every given situation. That is a fact. No one goes around twirling their moustache going "Oh I'm sooo evil". They're going "This will make me feel good, this will make me rich, I like doing this, this makes me happy, I will be remember for this, this will help X" etc etc.

[@VVeremoose]

Somebody needs to rewatch DS9's "Waltz" again and take notes this time.

[@bonusbaby801]

I've thought that Pressman was not entirely wrong. The treaty said Starfleet could not have CLOAKING technology. But Pressman was working on a PHASING technology that happened to cloak the ship as well. Also, I've always wondered if the TNG episode "The Next Phase" was a sequel to "The Pegasus". They never really said one way or the other.

[@Kefka.]

Did you mean to type prequel?

[@bonusbaby801]

@@Kefka., I guess I did. "The Next Phase" was season 5. "The Pegasus" was season 7.

[@RoonMian]

The treaty of Algeron never made any sense to me anyway.

[@shadizersilverhand2113]

I think the Romulans argued that phasing since it includes cloaking meant that it was therefore cloaking technology and covered under the ban, just like their own next level cloaking technology was also working on phased cloaking as we also saw in an episode of TNG. Even though as you say cloaking was a side-effect of phasing technology and not the main pursuit.

[@silversonic1]

Just because you have a good point, it doesn't make you right. Once you start using it as an excuse to do the wrong thing, you've essentially thrown away your right to be right. Alternatives are always possible. For instance, Oh and her group threw away the lives of not just the people on Mars, but many Romulans by forcing the Federation to abandon the Romulan evacuation effort. Did nobody, even once, consider making "the admonition" public knowledge? (To be fair, there are A LOT of flaws in season 1 of Picard, like ignoring that the Borg have assimilated other Romulans than just those on The Artifact or that TNG had addressed that there were Romulan cyberneticists. You know, like the ones who planted B-4 for the Enterprise crew to discover in Nemesis.) Pressman's treaty violations led him to betray the trust of not just his own crew(resulting in the mutiny), but the crew of the Enterprise. Honestly, I find it odd that the Pegasus was even used to test it. If it was so "hush hush", they could have run a far more secure trial with an unmarked ship than on an active service Starfleet vessel. And as for Insurrection, that didn't make a whole lot of sense either. The Ba'ku had like... one village on the entire planet. What stopped literally anybody from living on like... the other side of the planet? I mean, it's a really dumb plot.

[@Brasswatchman]

Re: why they didn't make "the admonition" public -- to be fair, they're Romulans. Keeping things secret is second nature to them. It's Kinda Their Thing. Also, "hey there are giant machine gods waiting to kill us, just FYI" is kinda a tough sell to a galaxy that doesn't trust you to begin with.

[@Brasswatchman]

Also, most of what you bring up about Picard Season 1 makes a lot of sense if the Admonition is actually a psychic virus (as I've posted about elsewhere.) The Borg accidentally assimilated a carrier of that virus, and were forced to cut off that ship to keep it from spreading to the rest of the Collective. Oh and the rest of the Zhat Vash were driven by the virus to create conflict between organics and synthetics by any means necessary, even at a massive cost to their own people. (Like Reaper Indoctrination, the virus can force its carriers to do irrational things.) And not *all* Romulans were carriers, just a select few, meaning that some of them could do stuff like pinch Federation hologram tech or steal android parts and not immediately start frothing at the mouth... so long as the Zhat Vash didn't find out, anyway.

[@silversonic1]

@@Brasswatchman But that's the most messed up part. The Zhat Vash saw it as a warning that history would repeat itself if synthetic life was allowed to raise again. But the fact is they were making it repeat itself. They were causing the hastening of the disaster by trying to stamp it out. Sutra even killed one of her siblings to hasten its coming. It was, in a sense, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anybody who was exposed to it inevitably helped make it come about, even if they thought they were fighting against it. Deciding to kill billions in order to destroy trust in synthetic life? You're just aiding the synthetic beings who want organics dead. Good job.

[@Leto2ndAtreides]

Pressman's solution was a fair workaround. And dimensional shifting could've had many interesting technological implications down the line - like interdimensional travel (to worlds with alternate histories)

[@Solitaire001]

I could see phasing as even more effective than a cloak and would be allowed since it would not make the ship invisible. Imagine a situation where three ships meet, one Federation Ship and two Romulan Ships. The Federation Ship has phasing technology that doesn't make them invisible (visually there is no indication that the ship is phased). The Federation Ship phases itself and the Romulan Ships are helpless to do anything to it because their attacks pass through it harmlessly. Meanwhile, the Federation Ship phases back in, attacks a Romulan Ship, and phases back out before the enemy can respond. There's a member of The Legion of Super-Heroes named Phantom Girl who can turn into a phantom (basically she phases out of normal space while remaining visible). She's a very effective fighter because she can phases parts of her body so that she can hit her opponent but her opponent can't hit her.

[@OmegablueWolf]

i think Oh and the Zhat Vash would have been the CAUSE of the sky portal AI's being pissed off which is the problem. if you treat emergent inteligence like a threat it will respond defensively, vicious cycle.

[@ellenstrycker1239]

Yeah that was a self fulfilling prophecy

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

It's curious that the Borg never tried to contact / assimilate these extra-dimensional aliens.

[@Brasswatchman]

​@@STSWB5SG1FANYou're presuming they're not representatives of said entities to begin with.

[@Brasswatchman]

In fact, I suspect that was the whole point. Didn't you notice how everyone who came in touch with their message -- both organics AND synthetics -- ultimately went homicidal? My guess is that the message was actually a psychic virus, intended to deliberately inflame tensions between organic and artificial intelligences. Thus causing the circumstances that would call the Can't Believe They're Not Reapers back to the galaxy.

[@Soundwave119]

Hope you're having a good day and keep up the great work making these videos!

[@dw7704]

They may have been right in some sense, but typically went about it the wrong way Sometimes that is lampshaded

[@Cybonator]

These aren't "villains who were right" it's just an explanation of motives

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

You know, I came into this expecting Jellico but, upon hindsight, he wasn't a villain and just a narrative antagonist. He was a hardass that the crew and we the audience are supposed to dislike but he was actually doing the right thing and doing it the right way.

[@Chiscringle]

I love him coming back in Prodigy to give the strategically correct but incredibly morally reprehensible order to fire photon torpedoes into the Neutral Zone to destroy a ship crewed entirely by children while they might be on board. Jellico is the evil admiral who doesn't go rogue but is all the more terrifying for it.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

@@Chiscringle I haven't seen Prodigy. Kinda cool to know he came back.

[@Chiscringle]

@@Blasted2Oblivion Yep, comes back to do what he does best: order characters we like to do things they hate, but are the correct orders for the situation.

[@shadizersilverhand2113]

But he wasn't doing things right. You don't take over a command and promptly bark orders to make the ship serve your whims and ignore it when informed those orders are undermining the efficiency of the ship and crew. That's the wrong way to be doing things. That's a Niedermeyer thing to do. When, as is his job, Riker is providing details and recommendations Jellico simply berates Riker for daring to offer up anything that runs counter to what he wants to hear. He expects a Yes Man serving him not someone looking after the ship and its crew.

[@Blasted2Oblivion]

@@shadizersilverhand2113 There is a glaring flaw in your assessment. He wasn't taking over the Enterprise and business as usual. He was taking over command in preparation for conflict. That requires a change in how they operate. Take a second look at Riker. He was a prick to the point of insubordination. He wasn't advising, he was just telling Jellico how the last boss did it and didn't want to hear anything else.

[@coltonalbright7544]

There’s no chance in hell that Seska could’ve gotten her people home. The Kazon were only ever gonna keep attacking the array. They only had 1 ship and it likely would’ve taken them weeks or months to even activate the projector let alone get their ship home intact. Blowing the station to keep out out of the hands of the Kazon was realistically the only option available

[@charlescooney9281]

The Kazon probably wanted the array for themselves.

[@Kronosfobi]

Kazon wanted the array, they werent going to keep attacking it. Hell, If Seska was in charge, Kazon wouldnt *be* an enemy to begin with. Starfleet ideals forced Janeway to defend the Okampa, turning Kazon against her.

[@coltonalbright7544]

@@Kronosfobi The Kazon had been attacking the array since before Janeway showed up. Seska is a manipulator who only got the Kazon on her side by bargaining with Voyager.

[@Kronosfobi]

@@coltonalbright7544 They were aware the Array was up for grabs. Kazon offered truce to Janeway, Janeway destroyed the array to prevent Kazon from abusing it. They werent going to destroy it.

[@coltonalbright7544]

@@Kronosfobi I never said they were gonna destroy the array, but they never would've agreed to let Janeway keep it

[@Kevin-Brent]

Duras was the Romulan's beeyatch. Wasn't right about anything. Sloan/Section 31 should have been No. 1. I noticed Captain Maxwell was not included. Or is it because he WAS right. Remember the end of that episode, and Picard's warning to the Cardassians?

[@tigerbread78]

Apparently no one on Voyager was aware you could put a timer on explosive devices,

[@merlur503]

I loved the Khan from Into Darkness...just well played by a awesome actor

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

Benedict Comberbatch was OK, but no match for Ricardo Mountalban.

[@Brasswatchman]

Cumberkhan? Yeah, he wasn't bad. I just wish they'd built a better movie around him.

[@WaterKirby1994]

There was an episode of Voyager where The Doctor used a war criminal's research, where the promoted ethical decision of destroying the lifesaving research seemed like the unethical choice.

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

The TNG episode The Ensigns of Command, Picard and Data seemed unethical with how they handled the situation between the colonists and the Sheliak. It's like Star Trek insurrection was made to make up for Data and Picards decisions in this episode.

[@RLplusabunchofdumbnumbers]

I hope you all warmed up thoroughly before stretching as much as you did to make this video.

[@SVSky]

Admiral Necheyev was right. The Picard squandered a chance to destroy the Borg.

[@gregx5096]

That's Trek in a nutshell. Even the villains make you think!

[@halifaxlithos2488]

Glad I found your channel. I'll keep watching!

[@MrANTICRAZY]

I always thought that it was weird for Starfleet to give up on developing cloaking technology through a treaty. I think they must have signed it without reading it.

[@SimBir08]

It was a stupid treaty, most races the federation have dealings with have cloaking tech so why would they take that off the table in a peace treaty considering the Romulans and federation were never really at peace. whenever they ran to each other it was always a stand off. It's silly to opt out of a defence that all of your enemies have.

[@gregorturner9421]

@@SimBir08 more likely they went' yeah well sign the treaty, but we will continue advancing the technology in secret. Hitler did the same with his U'boats, the treaty said only so many of such and such. Germany signed, but developed the u-boat outside of Germany in secret. The Federation I'm sure wouldn't hesitate to do the same, i mean cloaking gives your enemies such an advantage you either A develop a countermeasure (sonar for the uboats) or develop the tech yourself.

[@shauntempley9757]

Unless the Treaty allowed the Federation to build technology to detect cloaked ships, without interference. Without that treaty, I have no doubt the Tal Shiar was sabotaging any research made, just like they did with the standing order on synthetic life forms being killed during first contact, after Picard resigned from Starfleet. That was clearly a Tal Shiar order. This sabotage would have compounded any conflict with the Klingons during that period as well. We know from Kirk, and other senior officers at that time how bad that war was. The key possibility, is that only cloaking detection that was perfected on a Starfleet ship survived, and it was common knowledge only if the ship survived a battle. Which, we all know, was an uncommon development. We heard rumblings from Vulcan about that issue. The only answer, is the Tal Shiar was actively suppressing that research, by getting into facilities, and getting away without detection. How did they get in? By faking being Vulcan.@@SimBir08

[@every116]

@@SimBir08 The only races that have cloaks in Trek are the Romulans and the Klingons, I'd be hard pressed to think of any other race that has them.

[@impudentdomain]

Historically "democracies" often sign bad treaties with less pluralistic powers. I don't know why this is but its true.

[@martindevon3204]

" Federation Starship Uncloaking!" I would love to have seen the Romulan Commanders face😂😂 😂😂

[@stars9084]

You have a point with a bunch of these, especially if you’re saying they’re understandable rather than justifiable, but a few have issues- With Pressman, everyone talks about how big a mistake the Treaty of Algeron was, which makes sense except for one thing, which actually comes up a lot when people bring up issues with Federation treaty concessions- we don’t know what the Federation got in return for banning cloaks, so we can’t judge its wisdom. As for Ru’afo, that’s very much a ‘might makes right’ argument. The Federation never asked the Ba’ku if they’d be willing to share the planet with people in need. And for as much as Dougherty liked to say that the Federation had the planet, the Ba’ku claim on it predates the Federation’s very existence. To justify it means accepting the notion that it’s okay to take that which belongs to someone else because you can put it to better use and they can’t stop you

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

Like I always say to those who would say that the Federation was justifiable in forcing the Ba'ku off their planet, ask a Native American if forcible relocation is ever justifiable, and don't be surprised if you get a punch in the nose as a response.

[@Brasswatchman]

Did Dougherty even know for certain that the healing radiation would've worked off-planet? How did he know he wasn't killing the goose that laid the golden egg here?

[@genlando327plays2]

Peace... the Federation got peace and the Neutral Zone from the Treaty of Algeron

[@stars9084]

@@genlando327plays2 We don't know that. We only know that the Neutral Zone was redone in that peace treaty. But the Romulans would never make a treaty with someone who was willing to give up the house just to get peace. They'd see it as weakness

[@genlando327plays2]

@@stars9084 regardless of the STATED concessions, the IMPLICIT benefit of the treaty was peace and the disappearance of the Romulans from the landscape to the point where by Picard's era, they were so obscure that there was even question if they were relevant anymore until Galorndan Core...

[@jimmythebold589]

9:57 i haven't watched picard yet, or whatever this clip is from, is that the freaking CHATGPT icon destroying the world as an a.i. enemy, and is that intentional? is that changed from the original? i googled and couldn't find any info.

[@rossfurey7101]

Another villain who was actually right would be Garak. He was willing to sacrifice himself and the crew of the defiant by blanketting the surface of the planet the Founders were on with a lot of torpedoes. Fortunately, Worf stopped him from pulling off a bit of genocide. He rationalized it as being a small sacrifice for the the alpha quadrant. He wasn't wrong... Not right either. Could've went very wrong if he failed or if there were founders kicking about in the alpha quadrant. But his tendency to perform sacrifices for the greater good would show itself again when he tricked Sisco, and made him complicit in murder and conspiracy just to pull the romulans into the dominion war. He's not heroic or totally villainous, but he is a ruthless pragmatist and that can make him a menace to his allies and enemies alike.

[@Rob8729]

What's with the little NX-01 refit model in the the replicator at 2:49 ?

[@KingreX32]

Edward Jellico should be added to this list. I know he's not a villain but they kinda treated him like one. Edit: And he was right about The Cardassians

[@manic5378]

Though nothing about Jellico was villainous. He had a job to do and he did it, his only crime was clashing with our heroes and not being the same kind of captain as Picard. He was, of course, right about the Cardassians, but let's not forget that as much of a hard ass as he was with the Enterprise crew, he turned that right around on the Cardassians to ensure the return of Picard. Those are not the actions of a villain.

[@shadizersilverhand2113]

@@manic5378 he undermined the efficiency of the Enterprise with his arbitrary demands to please HIM rather than consider what was best for the entire ship. He expected everyone to serve him like he was a dictator and constantly dismissed the advice and recommendations of the second in command because Riker wasn't simply a yes man and actually did his job. Not the actions of a good guy.

[@philipc4272]

I've previously heard the argument that harvesting the radiation in the Briar Patch would have been beneficial to the Federation during the war, but I don't really see how: People in the war were killed when they were shot or their ships were destroyed, they didn't die of old age!

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

The radiation emanating from the rings just didn't reverse the effects of aging, they also rejuvenated tissue. Geordi got his natural eyes back, Picard's dueling scar was healed, even Worf ended up with an early case of Klingon acne ( I suppose that would be listed under reverse aging).

[@Brasswatchman]

Plus there was no indication the radiation would've worked away from the planet. Without further study, they would've been killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

[@Brasswatchman]

Headcanon time - I suspect that this planet is where Division 14 set up shop in Lower Decks. That's where they put the Farm.

[@hedonismbot1508]

One way or another, the Space Amish natives were only inhabiting a small part of the planet - surely it would be a simple matter to study the radiation without disturbing them.

[@saintsinningsword]

Forgot Gul Dukat for #1. He cut production demands by half, ended child labor, rewarded more rations for laborers during the bajoran occupation, but did anyone make a statue for him?

[@Cdr2002]

He’s literally Hitler. Disgusting to defend a monster like Dukat

[@Brasswatchman]

Yeah, and then he became the Bajoran Anti-Christ.

[@EbonKim]

Admiral Pressman: Don't tell me what I can't do!

[@BuhurtUK]

Pressman had daddy issues 😂

[@dannyayala3462]

Growing up, watching these shows. Never understood decisions made by these high rankers. Then after joining the military. I realize there are necessary evils out there. The idea is they get their hands dirty to keep our hands clean.

[@Brasswatchman]

Yeah, but if we know about those actions and let them happen, doesn't that make us partly responsible?

[@dannyayala3462]

@@Brasswatchman the reason or excuse depending on viewpoints is THE GREATER GOOD ideology war is hell

[@Brasswatchman]

@@dannyayala3462 It's true. Which is why I believe one must be immensely careful in what wars one chooses to fight. But that's neither here nor there.

[@NixonRules963]

The way Duras killed K'mpec was dishonorable. Klingon warriors do not use poison, there is no honor in secretly killing your opponent, if you want respect and honor for killing your superior it must be done through formal challenge and ritual combat.

[@SnowyRVulpix]

The Xindi aren’t villains. The Xindi were manipulated by the villains

[@feralstorm]

The majority of these are less "they were right" and more "they had reasonable motivations for what they were doing".

[@AndrewD8Red]

One of Trek's biggest, and best, villains: Ben Sisko.

[@STSWB5SG1FAN]

Not villain, more like anti- hero

[@Brasswatchman]

Just because he indulged in moustache-twirling that one time doesn't make him a villain.

[@MaxDoll]

@@Brasswatchman More than once. In the Pale Moonlight and For the Uniform.

[@AndrewD8Red]

@@Brasswatchman Which one time? When he let his pals escape to keep terrorising the Cardassians? When he bombed that planet? When he helped murder that guy?

[@Brasswatchman]

@@AndrewD8Red It was the planet bombing I was thinking of. The others were either justifiable and/or mostly Garak. (Hell, even the planet bombing was in theory for the greater good.)

[@SteveTheDeathStarGunner74]

There are definitely shades of grey concerning Admiral Pressman! This deserves a re-visit someday!

[@hudsonball4702]

What about Dukat? Sure he went full villian in the end, but his methods during the Cardassian-Klingon war were right and his allying with the Dominion did save his people (at first) from total defeat and starvation.

[@genlando327plays2]

I feel like Damar would have been an even better choice... he was a zealot, yes, but he did it to benefit his people. And at first, Cardassia DID significantly benefit from entry into the Dominion...

[@hudsonball4702]

@@genlando327plays2 Yes Damar could easily have fit into this list as well.

[@Brasswatchman]

Dukat was *always* full villain is the thing. He was Chief Bitch In Charge of occupied Bajor, remember?

[@davidlewis5312]

@@hudsonball4702 Damar is kind of cheating since he has a huge face-turn in the final season.

[@ratboygenius]

The ultimate question that defines Star Trek villains (or any villains) is, "Do the ends justify the means?" Any character who says yes to this is probably a villain. Of course the ends can be noble. It's how you get there.

[@davidlewis5312]

so is Sisko Kira and Garak villains then? They all did things because at the time they did them 'the ends justified the means'

[@bigshow771]

I sincerely doubt that Ru'afo and the Son'a would have shared the technology and/or metaphasic radiation with the Federation. More likely after deploying the collector, he would have ordered Dougherty (and any Starfleet personnel with him) killed and they would have quietly retreated to their own territory claiming that the experiment was a failure. There they would resume their alliance with the Dominion.

[@davidlewis5312]

agreed, the notion the Son'a would have kept up their end of the bargain is unrealistic. The Federation would have been accessories to their genocidal revenge and got nothing for it. If anything I would replace him with Dougherty

[@thebaccathatchews]

Ru'afo was still wrong. What number N makes forcibly moving a population good, right, and just, and what number N+1 makes forcibly moving a population no longer good, right, and just?

[@Brasswatchman]

Also, what was stopping him from just setting up shop on the other side of the planet? 600 people in a pre-industrial village aren't going to be able to stop him from continents away.

[@jeffkardosjr.3825]

I think he was wrong, but Picard and Data thought the opposite in the episode The Ensigns of Command. But then they changed their view on morality by the time of Insurrection?

[@matthewdoyle3628]

Sloan wasn't a villain, he did the dirty work that allowed the real villain in his story Bashir to have his "Superior" morality complex.

[@Brasswatchman]

6:54 Oh, yeah. Cumberkhan was *aggressively* reasonable. Didn't he let Kirk beat on him for like five minutes, just to get it out of his system?

[@maaah_mal9767]

Duras was a petaQ without honor! So yes, kind of Trumpy I guess...

[@Brasswatchman]

Duras has way better skin, at least.

[@TangomanX2008]

One thing, I don't understand why Starfleet (or the Federation) would put itself in such a disadvantage by agreeing to not use cloaking technology when other major powers were permitted to do so. Stealth is so important in warfare that I can't imagine Starfleet agreeing to do so without having some technical advantage that would allow it to compensate for the disadvantage of not using stealth. Can someone explain this to me,

[@YiYaEmperor]

Excuse me... Duras was right??? That is THE worst outcome for the Empire and the Federation.

[@ReelMeurik]

One name not mentioned in the list: Captain Benjamin Maxwell (TNG's The Wounded) Although his methods were questionable, his reasoning made sense. And indeed, was proven correct. He attacked Cardassian supply ships, claiming that Cardassia was arming for another war. Picard was ordered to stop Maxwell, in order to protect the Federation's treaty with Cardassia (sounds very familiar, in regards to the later rise of the Maquis). Although Maxwell was eventually apprehended, and likely ended up stripped of rank and placed in a Federation penal colony, the Cardassians were indeed arming for another war. Even before the onset of the Dominion War, they were secretly building a fleet (unknown to Cardassian Central Command), which was later used for a preemptive strike against the Founder homeworld, and likely contributed greatly to the start of the Dominion War.

[@Tuning3434]

Right about the facts, but very very wrong in what he was doing. He is a Starfleet captain, and he was not able to accept the Federation was trying to build up peace with the Cardassians, instead of building up reasons to go to war. Star Trek is full of legitimate reasons to go to war. The Federation is usually portrayed as the one first willing to end the war, even if it is justified to start a war. I liked how it was wrapped up in the coda by Picard in this episode. It highlights that the Federation is aware of the hostile nature of the Cardassians, and are taking due precautionary actions, but are willing to invest (and possibly sacrifice) a lot to give peace an optimal chance.

[@hanovergreen4091]

Outstanding! Thank You for this. Best Regards and Best Wishes!

[@thebullet7874]

Fascinating premise. Well done.

[@elenadirectorofmiiss7942]

The issue with Section 31 and Sloan isn't one of them existing; it's one of lack of oversight. Sloan never would have been able to get away with his attempted genocide of the Founders with any sort of oversight… Edit: Oh, and Control wouldn't have had a chance to wipe out all life in the galaxy… and they still didn't put in any form of oversight over the organization.

[@StillSaber]

That incident with the Protostar was basically Wolf 359 all over again, the only difference this time is Starfleet had some newer ships in the mix.

[@prickly10000]

I love how the only one that cares about the new Star Trek is Trekculture. There isn't a single comment about it as it should be

[@katey1dog]

I have no words of disdain or rebuttal. This was excellent. 100% agreed.

[@Etheldreda_]

Pressman was a hero to the Federation who in the end didn't get the credit he deserved. He kept it real and got his hands dirty in trying to even the playing field but sadly got caught. The man was ahead of the game because in the end the Federation still ended up with cloaking tech.

[@Regfife]

He also endangered his crew. Not worth it IMHO.

[@mycrazylife1111]

Duras' family's alliance with the Romulans seems to have been overlooked - I'm not totally sure that the Duras family would have lead the Klingons to their past glory exactly. Not to say that the Duras family (inc. Lursa and Bator [sp?]), had Duras himself survived longer, may not have acted differently.

[@Brasswatchman]

Yeah, that's the thing. Wouldn't the Romulans basically have had Duras completely under their thumb? All they'd need to do is release proof of what his dad did (which of course they have, since they're the ones who conspired with him) through back channels, and his family's honor would've been kaput. Whatever imperial ambitions he might've had wouldn't have changed the fact that a foreign power would've had him on a leash.

[@mycrazylife1111]

@@Brasswatchman Its funny, had the Federation (wisely!) listened to the admiral at #1, Duras (and family) at #10 would have been far easier to deal with :)

[@Brasswatchman]

@@mycrazylife1111 Assuming said admiral managed to avoid setting off a full scale war with the Romulans, anyway.

[@chucklemeister1529]

Dr. Marr from Silicon Avatar, if Captain Pickard would have had his way, they would have still been trying to open a dialogue with the crystalline entity, while it was digesting the enterprise.

[@StormsparkPegasus]

This wasn't ever stated in the show, but it's stated in expanded universe materials that Pressman and his phasing cloak group were actually part of Section 31. Which goes in with saying it was a project in Starfleet Intelligence. Makes a LOT of sense.

[@sonicninja3434]

Technically, it wasn't cloaking tech but phasic tech... It didn't violate the treaty inherently, but it was definitely in poor form relative to the point of the treaty.

[@bkayser05]

You left out Michael Eddington. Sure his methods were wrong but just handing over Federation colonies to the Cardassians was a terrible idea and ended up costing the Federation far more in the long run.

[@jackdoyle7453]

Two points on number 1. Isn't the Treaty of Algeron from the lost era, as it hinted that the cold war with the romulans briefly got hot, second weren't the section 31 ships using holographic disguises rather than cloaks.

[@petepanteraman]

Ok to be fair a cloak bends light around the ship (what ever is inside the field) where as phasing pulls you into a pocket of .. (I don't know if it was subspace or dimensions but we'll go with pocket for now.), that allowed ships to harmlessly pass through objects. Essentially not even close to a cloak, but significantly better. In addendum: Starfleet felt it better to be visible in order to show they have nothing to hide/always available since they were meant to be explorers not conquerors or a military unless required to fight.

[@richardcochrane1966]

7:40 "YOU SHOULD HAVE LET ME SLEEP!" I do not care what anyone thinks, to me, Into Darkness & Beyond are brilliant movies - and regarding Into Darkness, taking an old movie in a new direction is hardly a new idea....how often do people watch a film and think "Yeah, but what if....?"