Why Is Training Jiu Jitsu So Complicated?

[@Willrocs]

I was a freestyle wrestler before I learned no gi. The one issue I seen at gyms was , 2-3 moves drilling for a few and then live rolling. Where freestyle it was the opposite %85 drilling and 15% rolling. Like takedowns need to be drilled and that’s the bottom line.

[@bigkurz]

Drilling wrestling is intense and fun though. Drilling a sweet for 85% of the class would suck it would be so boring. Rolling is the fun part. Once you get good you can work your technique while live rolling. Just takes a lot of time though

[@nemanacemu2024]

I agree.

[@ZymarsMMA]

@@bigkurzcan’t always be fun

[@sirbalanced5486]

As an ex D2 wrestler….can confirm this is very accurate. Drilling/technique was 60% live wrestling was 20% conditioning/strength training was 20%

[@westphalianstallion4293]

@@ZymarsMMA Welcome to 2024...if its not fun and you dont let the students roll for half the class they will go to a gym that lets them.

[@EnergiaMartialArts]

Hey brother! Thanks for sharing our clips! Appreciate it! I 100% agree. In my gym we do ecological training, positional drills, positional sparring and flipped classroom. I think ‘old school drills’ also have their place and time and should not be discarded a hundred procent. For KZbin and bjj fanatics we focus on technique. It’s then up to the students and gym to train it ecologically. For my gym we have had so much success with positional sparring and ecologically drilling within certain frames instead of just following the technique. Great video!

[@A_RayChan_Joint]

I think troubleshooting sometimes gets over looked. I'm talking about specifics to your own issues after a roll. Somewhere you've fucked up, or got tapped out. Sure you can look online to find the solution after class, but the next class they're not going to go over your problems you had in your roll, they'll just cover the positions or drill of the day. So you're left with issues unresolved, and it'll keep happening in live rounds because a resisting opponent is not allowing you to troubleshoot your issues, until you figure it out eventually, most likely against a less experienced partner. It'd be good if everyone can spend sometime after a roll, say 10 mins to go over issues specific to them that they want to address, and talk over it while you are in the submission, position or escape. It can be a technique issue, or a game plan etc. There's a reason why the blue belt instructor taking the junior class suddenly excels quicker than you, because they can teach the class while they figure out their issues, or things they want to work on. Maybe this can be PT group class. Or if you're lucky, at Open Mat you can use your time to ask your partner to help you with this, rather than just rolling as usual.

[@aidanlee8804]

One thing people often forget; especially the more advanced players who’ve forgotten what it was like to begin with/have trained since they were children: For new people to the sport, an extremely SLOW & THOROUGH concentration on each individual step whilst drilling the move without resistance is vital, preferably whilst also speaking out loud on each step as to why you’re including seemingly pointless extra steps. The most common mistake beginners make is they for some reason feel the need to rush everything whilst drilling! It’s probably because their adrenaline is high even whilst drilling, as their brain still struggles to understand the process that they’re in isn’t actually dangerous. As their level goes up, they will spend more time ‘drilling’ the move on someone who is a novice compared to your skill level. The perfect scenario, & where I gained the most progress, was when I would spend a few hours with a training partner with the laptop with me, in order to learn specific moves to deal with the problems I was running into during sparring. Nothing can match this in terms of introducing new skills, because you have time to work specifically on your weaknesses; something you cannot do during class. If you really understand the sport well & have natural talent, then feel free to skip this & work more on trying bits during sparring, but if for instance you’re very much a hobbyist: even a purple belt or brown belt: Never feel embarrassed or guilty as an advanced player to drill the move with 0 resistance if it’s something a bit new to you. I see sloppy technique & missed steps all through the ranks (myself included at times!) You can move onto the positional/sparring once you’re very confident in not missing one of the 8 steps to finish an armbar from mount perfectly, as one example.

[@johnbwill]

Rant Warning: Ecological Learning: My gut reaction … Let’s simplify … this is ‘constraints-based learning’. We give a problem and the students devise a solution using knowledge they have. In math, for example, we don’t ask them to re-invent math. We’d be there forever. Why re-invent the wheel? Like most things … we ‘iterate’ on the best version that currently exists. We save time . Expert instruction should begin with an overview of the problem … make sure everyone understands the problem that we are trying to solve. This can be done in less than 60 seconds. We then clarify the objective - another few seconds. And then guide the students through the current best practice(es) of achieving those objectives. Not hard. When we undertake study at a cooking school - we don’t ask the students to experiment with ingredients and see who can fumble their way to baking a cake or cooking a steak. We teach them best-practise methodologies - after which they can have at it, and try to iterate upon that. The average person engages in ecological learning in day-to-day life. They try to figure out, through trial and error, how to buy a house and set themselves up to become financially independent - as a simple example. How many do well in this fundamental ‘life challenge’? I’d submit that most fail dismally. Those who succeed grandly, usually do so by consulting others who have succeeded and following suit. Questions we should ask: - How many elite operators, athletes, etc employ the constraints based method? - Do those who insist upon it have anything to gain by getting others on the bandwagon? - Do those who insist upon it, learn that way themselves? - What are the differences between ’situational rolling’ and the ‘Constraints Led’ approach? Are they significant enough that we should do more research? - Can we see this way of learning in action in other areas of society? If it works better than traditional methods we should see evidence of it everywhere? Final thoughts: (before I delve deeper by reading the books, papers, etc) I have seen this sort of phenomenon before, many times. A relatively novel idea is sold as the new ‘way forward’. Kettle bells are a perfect example. For guys trying to sell kettlebells, they were marketing them as the only thing you need. Machines are useless, free weights are useless, running is useless, plyometrics is for dummies, etc. of course, kettlebells do have a place in the gym but they are not the complete answer. They are a single tool in the toolbox. Those who want to make a living selling kettlebell fitness can sometimes try and sell you the idea that Kettlebells are all you need. A more responsible and honest thing to say is they are a great tool, to add to your kit, if you don’t already have them.

[@rawcorporation]

I started teaching eco in the past two months. What I've learned is that the eco approach is only as good as the coach being able to have well designed games that actually accomplish the intent. Compared to teaching a technique they know, this requires the coach to spend more time actually trying to understand the concepts and intent of a move, and then distilling it down to simple goals/tasks that their students can focus on to accomplish the move. Thats one big reason why John Danaher's stuff is so good. It is way more time consuming. Sometimes we get it wrong, something many coaches have a hard time admitting, and that requires having to go back and make corrections. But if done well, yields good results.

[@daltondunn7856]

Showing the technique before the positional sparring or eco game is THE KEY a lot of moves are not intuitive and need to be shown/instructed...

[@rahulbball9395]

I disagree, I think people should play the game first, then MAYBE be shown a technique. Then play the game again. I feel like this will allow people to understand the concepts and reason for a technique a lot better. Rather than overly focus on the exact steps of a technique

[@daltondunn7856]

@rahulbball9395 I guess it depends on the level of the people and the complexity of the technique we are talking about, if the people are a low level or the technique is complex I think you show first but if the move is more simple or the people are high level then maybe you just let em roll/play...

[@TheGrapplingNinja]

That goes against eco - eco is about self organizing eco is a active learning approach drilling is an application of learning

[@모해임마]

KKK...🎉 So the people who are starting out are going to be a bunch of mop. You can't do that as a hobby..

[@terrellkluting5370]

@@rahulbball9395this is how Andrew Gardineer teaches.

[@usbsol]

Explore or imitate... your choice... Direct perception or indirect perception... the theoretical foundation for said choice.

[@paulnormandy6247]

My coach is probably the most dangerous human I know, and all we do is roll. We get some instruction at the end of class on common errors he noticed, but that's it.

[@salsafusionstudios]

I love drilling.. its meditation for me

[@tededo]

Cause you're an advanced grappler.

[@Kah-Rah-Tay]

I agree with drilling is meditation. I absolutely love getting a good flow and im next to terrible 👍

[@retroghidora6767]

The research my brother and I found and went over on ecological learning didn't say anything about information denial. The articles and papers DID mention involving the students in the learning process, they DID NOT say you can't teach straightforwardly! Not that we could find at least. There's a ton of ways to involve a student in the learning process, I don't know why you can't teach and do positional sparring.

[@connortolley40]

I agree with your conclusion former wrestler here as well and was coaching at a gym where the owner only did ecological. I was a fan of the approach at first because in college I felt like I learned the most from positional sparring. But when it came to teaching he never wanted me to show the basic fundamentals to the new students he simply thought they would figure it out on their own. Which I would rather show then a few efficient ways to accomplish the goal and the allow them to play the game. I think it still allows creativity with the fall back if want your trying doesn’t work you can go back to a technique that could work better for you. I agree a mix of both is a great formula. I think especially if your new both will help. I could see the argument after you have a solid foundation of wrestling and BJJ then straight ecological is the best.

[@MikeySmithJones]

Combine the two is best.

[@Jesse_Marseille_Music]

Anybody with experience in ANY other form of skill development knows that drilling is important. They also know that scenario based problem solving is important. None of this is new. The best athletes in the world do both

[@TheGrapplingNinja]

Eco is a learning process positional drilling is an application of learning

[@bigbenpbr]

Everyone wants a shortcut and excuse for current status. Train. Don't worry about belts. Learn from everyone. Focus on basics (balance, pressure, connection, leverage).

[@RoninFitnessecomma]

All motor learning is ecological, regardless of the practice structure. When you give people a specific technique and have them no. Resistance drill at you are just setting a very specific task constraint for when the environment is more representative later.

[@MannyC-w8r]

Phonics vs Sight Words. Both styles are beneficial.

[@jerryh2954]

Truth, most of my time training BJJ, since 2005, has been practicing "ecological training". We just added the name recently. It's more like, not knowing what to do and figuring it out under pressure.

[@fyrdraca77]

I would say for beginners, drilling > ecological training. At higher levels I would say ecological training can have more benefits. Overall for most people who are hobbyists / occasional competitors, a mix of drilling and positional sparring with constraints on what you can go for during the round is the best way (at least for me, and if someday, I were to teach classes)

[@josephmoreau9615]

“I only train live.” = on to the next video

[@strongforever3274]

THANK YOU BRO!! THE BEST EXPLANATION

[@onetwocrazy1232]

Im a white belt and by far enjoy the drilling/posrollinh and then a while of rolling after. Hate it when a gym does not have lots of rolling

[@OkayestGuy]

Well said! I couldn't agree more!

[@bruhinthewild]

I feel like the ecological approach is good for everything in between techniques. If you need to discover ways to get from one technique to the next or initiate technique from disengagement, then I think that's where an ecological approach shines.

[@spencerschmidtstudios9171]

How many times a week do you train? Just wondering.

[@stickemuppunkitsthefunlovi4733]

-7

[@TylerSpangler]

4-5x a week

[@spencerschmidtstudios9171]

@@TylerSpangler That’s cool.

[@danielskrivan6921]

I think the most important factor is mat time, and both drilling (+positional) and eco get you mat time.

[@jareddias7932]

There is no world where both approaches are not very useful depending on what stage you are in during the learning process.

[@takuwan619]

We just gonna ignore the sweet ass Gundam figures and megaman!!? Siiick

[@TylerSpangler]

You’d love to see my wholeeeee collection of figures

[@ijjust_thatguy]

Sweet video dude

[@Lifecounselor710]

Tyler how do I work on my domain expansion I can’t hold any higher up belts down with it. Prob my hand signs but wanted your thoughts😂

[@alexarteau7353]

I think they all have their place, people fall in love with one specific way to do thing. In my opinion they are tools with good and bad to each method. One problem with only ecological approach is talented people can get away with bullshit when their partners isn't at their level

[@jsg9575]

I've seen a fancy technique from a Judo comp, went and did it on a bigger guy during sparring having never practiced, was never able to do that take down again and any future attempts I got my back taken

[@victorcharles27]

8.6k subscribers left 🎉😊

[@keithdischert9660]

Ever since we started strictly training in the ecological fashion the room got so much better very quickly. Having a great coach that created games that are useful definitely helps.

[@ItsPandatory]

Why is white belt stick man bricked up like that

[@JEFFMAN90]

I love drilling. It helps me understand the mechanics of the techniques better

[@joepawlenty3547]

Couldn't agree more

[@morganfrazer158]

We will never go back to just drilling, never

[@CJ-mm4gc]

You end by saying, if you want to be the best at jujitsu. Majority of people don’t wanna be the best nor can they be. Training live all the time takes a toll on the body. If you’re a hobbyist and you train hard all the time and your body is riddled with injuries. For me, that defeats the idea of why you are training. If you’re training in the martial art that destroys your body., That doesn’t make any sense. Focus should be strengthening your body not destroying it. A lot of jujitsu practitioners that went too hard, too soon, for too long are gonna be in a lot of pain as they get older. I mean debilitating pain.

[@Lifecounselor710]

There’s a difference between training live and rolling hard. Training hard does not equal training live.

[@KodiakCombat]

You need to reconsider your definition of "live." It is the opposite of dead. If it helps, think lively. Active. With purpose and intent for everyone involved. Or similarly you could think alive. No one is laying there like a practice dummy. The reality is, applying Eco D theory will typically lead to less injury, pain, stiffness, and general discomfort. Novelty of movement prevents overuse injuries.

[@BattlefieldsOfBattleFields]

Incorrect. We've experienced LESS injuries since implementing CLA in our classes. This is not uncommon anecdotally. The only people claiming that CLA creates more injuries are people who have never implemented it.

[@thelastchimp]

we stopped the running bs recently at our gym thankfully, warm up with positional rounds now

[@LetitGolazziter-uk9xi]

I tired 3 times to train in Jujitsu, I could get it! Too many ways to do one thing! So, back to stand up 😂😂

[@Joecool20147]

How for real in the Ecological Approach, is having to discover everything yourself. Like it seems silly that the theoretical best situation would be where a student was never ever told about the existence of The Triangle and had to refine it from all possible things one can do with their body. Especially because I’ve heard that humans actually only seemed to discover the triangle within the last 200 years.

[@KodiakCombat]

You could read How We Learn to Move. It would likely lead to better questions and less strawman arguments.

[@Joecool20147]

@@KodiakCombat I appreciate the actual answer. I’ll add it to the reading list, but also probably don’t enough time to read it right now. For now I’ll still be interested in the ecological approach, but the team itself will look guys who claim their way is the only way to do stuff, while not even being the best team in the USA.

[@KodiakCombat]

@@Joecool20147 I listened to it on audible. I was already a fan and had looked logically at what was being said by Greg and others. But the book has helped me realize the actual theory better and what study was done to create the theory. Makes a ton of sense.

[@KodiakCombat]

Anyone that hasn't at least read/listened to Rob Gray's book How We Learn to Move shouldn't express a negative opinion on Ecological Dynamics. He has a whole website full of actual scientific studies to back why it is superior for skill development and, more importantly, retention.

[@markb.4247]

Well done

[@blackbeardtx371]

I mean look at it like I show you a painting of the mona lisa and say "ok this is how you paint". It's good in that ok, I know what a good painting looks like but not HOW to paint. Technique and eco both have their place and can work with each other.

[@sirpibble]

Reminder: if you drill then 50% of your training time will be spent not practicing anything because its your partners turn Remove that factor and you've halved your time to black belt Its simple math

[@Consumer156]

Interesting. I don't necessarily disagree, but interesting

[@shinka6670]

Your time drilling also consists of applying logical counter pressures and developing counter defenses. If you are sitting there doing nothing you aren't drilling for real and are also a bad training partner.

[@KodiakCombat]

​@shinka6670 what you're describing doesn't apply to 90% of the drilling done in any BJJ gym. Taken to a logical conclusion you're not talking about drilling but instead CLA, a method of Ecological Dynamics theory.

[@KodiakCombat]

​@DagwoodDogwogglewrestling "drills" are far more like CLA. I'd need to see you demonstrate what you would describe as a drill. I've seen wrestlers stand basically at military rest, completely passive, while their opponents do shots, over and over and over. That's garbage. Down the mat drills without having to overcome a realistic but possibly diluted resistance are garbage. Rob Gray has a whole website with links to scientific papers proving this to be the case across numerous sports.

[@KodiakCombat]

@DagwoodDogwoggle you're conflating drilling with repetition. Who your coach is is completely irrelevant. Either a claim can be backed with sound argument or it cannot. Who makes it doesn't matter. The weight lifting is irrelevant to discussion but your coach was half right. In season the focus should be on skill acquisition related to the sport. However, strength is best built through weight training. Some time should be spent doing weight training to maintain the strength and potentially muscle gained in the off season. That training should take place before strenuous cardio activity. I'm happy for your success but you'd have to isolate the multitude of variables, including illness you mentioned, to determine efficacy of any one variable. So no, a successful season does not indicate anything specifically about any single variable, good or bad. If you don't know what CLA is you are completely unequipped to have any valid opinion on this subject as it relates to a comparative analysis. One cannot compare apples to oranges unless they know what both things are. Thank you for wishing me well. You also be well.

[@Kah-Rah-Tay]

Jiujitsu is like cars. If you want a fast Lamborghini, your goina pay the big bucks $$$ Time,money and health. I figured out 6 months ago I enjoy and rock out on a JiuJitsu Moped. 😂 Occasionally, I take the helmet off for the element of danger 😅

[@irone93]

I will wait for my neurolink chip

[@joshuakeeler82]

As long as its fun. "Ecological learning" is just glorified positional sparing. By changing the incentives you change to outcomes.

[@KodiakCombat]

Wrong. You've never read a single book or study on Ecological Dynamics theory of learning and it shows.

[@joshuakeeler82]

@@KodiakCombat No but i have eyes. Ive watched hours of these games and how they build them. In theory im sure you are right. In practice it is an incentive structure based around a game.

[@KodiakCombat]

@@joshuakeeler82 ah yes. Because observational bias is not a well studied human failing.

[@dirtygeazer9266]

Jiu jitsu has never been better imo if you psychologically believe you found a personal training method accostom to you, you do better but there are better methods so find the good method then believe it's ideal for you but has to have some legitmacy if it doesn't you'll be faking it and wont be able to succeed

[@TimothyLaster]

This is probably THE most important jiu-jitsu video I have seen because, when I would watch technique videos I would be like "I'm gonna hit that in class, but I hadn't practiced it failed and I gave up but Now I have learned that I can drill when rolling, so in short terms it helps me apply all the great resources I have TYSM for being a great jiu jitsu teacher (I tapped an orange belt who was 50 lbs. heavier than me with the chin strap guillotine)

[@Psalm51-ql2cn]

Im a freestyle wrestler i was doing a little grappling the last few years I did now grappling with black belts none of them could really tap me i was Always on top. You bjj guys doing something complete wrong

[@Psalm51-ql2cn]

A wrestler does train gymnastics, pylometrics, running, weightlifting, calesthenic and of course wrestling. While you BJJ guys only train BJJ and weightlifting.

[@geraldwalthour41]

👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾

[@BattlefieldsOfBattleFields]

Buncha uneducated opinions in this section.

[@SpiralBJJ]

This is a wildly uninformed take.

[@danila4322]

If I were a coach and had 2 hours available, I would bin warm ups, use the first 40 minutes to teach technique, the next 20 minutes would be positional training specific to the techniques just taught for example if I taught 3 types of mount escapes and 3 ways to retain mount, I would use the next 20 minutes to specifically pair people up with the goal one retains mount and one escapes. In the second hour, I would do 15 minutes wrestling technique, 15 minutes wrestling specific training no guard pulling only wrestling. The last half an hour after that free sparring. This way people get 40 minutes of taught bjj, 15 minutes taught wrestling, 15 minutes sparring wrestling, 20 minutes training bjj position and 30 minutes rolling however they want.

[@jamesmolleur2196]

Drilling blows, no one learns anything from pretending....demonstrate a technique, drill it for 10 minutes and then let students try it for real for the remainder of the class......its not hard!

[@kellenwaters9087]

I always refer to drilling as downloading. Each rep strengthens the nervous system to perform the technique without having to think consciously about what's next... I'm a big fan of drilling. Edit: but drilling fundamental movements (the wrestling) is probably what I'm referring to more than the technical "this than that"

[@ninpolife7749]

👍

[@frankiecal3186]

Ecological nonsense.

[@westphalianstallion4293]

Eco-Training? AKA you do nothing as a coach. Dont get me wrong, for people who understand JiuJitsu those games are great. The Idea that everyone needs "their own style" is BS. If you cant bridge and roll, granby roll, etc. why are you playing positional games. Its like playing chess with only checkers pieces.

[@Lifecounselor710]

Perhaps eco training is best for competitors or select individuals as long as you advertise and promote your teaching style and your transparent knowledgeable about it it’s up the gym owner coach to promote

[@westphalianstallion4293]

@@Lifecounselor710 I see the value for certain people, and this how I and some other instructor friends of mine work on new stuff with each other. But from a time and risk point of view these Eco-Approaches dont make that much sense. Why should I waste time and injury risk to show people the things they shouldnt do? This stuff should be used on people at purple/brown belt level...

[@Lifecounselor710]

@@westphalianstallion4293 I agree. Eco is not for people fresh off the streets. It’s almost a liability at that point. People have to learn to control their own bodies first.

[@mtgsalt1151]

Everyone does need their own style, though. You can look at people who don't have strong games and go .. your coach taught you the wrong style for your personality and body. Also, eco coach's aka, do nothing is such an ignorant comment.

[@westphalianstallion4293]

@@mtgsalt1151 ignorance a bit, experience a lot. Depends on what level whe are talking about. But from my experience people tend to go the easiest way if you let them roam free. And so people who roll a lot/ just figure stuff out with no real guidance often have super big holes in their game. Bodytypes and personality influence gameplans, but on the ground not as much as in wrestling or striking. People with longer limbs have it easier to get a chocke, mit shorter limbs its easier to finish... so there arent that many short or small guy techniques at the end. Experience musicians can jam together, if you let beginners smash on instrument, they waste their time and propably break something

[@JEFFMAN90]

Warmups should be essential for BJJ. Every other martial arts does warmups before training sessions.

[@KodiakCombat]

To quote your mother, "if everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?"