What Happened To Marisa? (And More On The Current State Of SF6)

[@ZensanFGC]

SF6 is some of the most fun and frustration I’ve experienced playing a fighting game.

[@UltraChenTV]

FACTS. LOL!

[@zojitzumiri2192]

Sorry for you loss James, take care

[@JimmiePitts]

I literally live for James chen content to listen to during work. I wish everyday was Tuesday so I can just here james ramble for multiple hours

[@UltraChenTV]

Thank you!!!

[@flipatx2158]

41:03 THANK YOU JAMES! As a day 1 Lily player I did not know this and was ALWAYS so frustrated when my OD Dp on wakeup would not beat opponents pokes. This changes everything.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yo. That makes a big difference to know! Hahaha! But also, just so you know, it IS invincible frame 1 to Air Attacks. So it can be used as an anti-air as it will beat anything airborne frame 1.

[@sawyersimpkins9428]

Bison's lack of an OD DP doesn't matter to him as much as others. He has a lvl 1 reversal and has great options to get out of the corner.

[@daltimond]

Praying for you James! Hope things start looking up. I get that this is a month after the fact but I hope things are going a bit better now.

[@coryharris1939]

Great discussion, love me some theory fighter. Always appreciate this channel and all you do. My condolences to you and your family.

[@brewslidepark]

Your rants are a pleasure James, id never say that for anyone else i know Lol. Your understanding and overall demeanor is cathartic, esp in this space

[@UltraChenTV]

Hahaha. Thank you! That actually is super welcome to hear. ^_^ I'm just very passionate about Fighting Games. Hahaha!

[@littleakibagames]

34:18 - Honda is fantastic if you're creative, but with so many characters in the game that don't really ask that of players, it's easy to see why he gets overlooked like he does. Gonna try to make some noise next weekend at Please Show Up.

[@imcel8953]

Good luck to you. Also what kind of mixups or gameplan are you using with Honda? I main Kim but Honda is fun to mess around with

[@littleakibagames]

@@imcel8953 Thanks! My approach mainly focuses on being really good in the neutral, turning how people like to fight Honda against them, and having a good deck of shenanigans ready to go. It's hard to describe, I play Honda more like a SoulCalibur character than a Street Fighter character. Oh, and an OS I don't see anyone else using.

[@imcel8953]

@@littleakibagames nice. I wont ask you to reveal the OS you gotta keep that in the back pocket for a bit lbs.

[@plutoburn]

30 years later, we still haven't got the "throw is cheap" mentality fully out of our system.

[@ZzigZaG00NIN]

There is a chance Capcom would mess up a new Darkstalkers but seeing how much fun people had with Demitri in Infinite I am sure they could definitely make a fun game in a new engine

[@UltraChenTV]

Jedah, you mean?

[@stut7177]

It's insane to even suggest that Marisa's Scutum breaking armour was intended as a buff. The whole reason they gave it armour break was to making it so she couldn't punish DI.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeahhhhhhhh. You right. And when you're right, you're right. They really did it to mess her up, sadly.

[@Justpostitlikethat]

Jabs beat everything Kimberly can do. Shes supposed to be a ninja.. and she gets cornered with no wake up smoke or anything..lol give her scorpion teleport at least

[@RxMxG]

41:20 "OD Rising Taco" first time I heard this lol

[@UltraChenTV]

LOLOL! It's the Japanese voice for Terry that has become so iconic. "RISING TACK-O!"

[@rayvsthaworld]

Bison is definitely top 5 strongest characters. His defense is weak but as you said he's easy and he has the strongest offense and second biggest damage potential in the game.

[@Mooglewut]

I've been playing a lot of Marisa lately, and I definitely think she's weaker than some of the other characters that fill a similar role; however - i think it needs to be stressed that a character not performing well at the top 0.01% of players does not mean the character is useless. Plenty of people have great success with her in ranked online, or at smaller local tournaments. Don't be put off by playing her because she's not winning CPT events. She's still more than viable for 99% of people playing/ranks, and she's extremely fun and rewarding.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah. As much as I cry about Kim, I don't think she's useless. Marisa is not useless either. Just that every character in this game has some juice, and you can tell because someone out there still hates Marisa and Kim with a passion. Hahaha. So no one in this game is bad. Not even Kimberly despite how I sound when I talk about her. The worst character in this game is mid-tier.

[@Mooglewut]

@@UltraChenTV Absolutely agree. Everyone's got some really cool, useful stuff. I don't think any character outside Lily is truly "boring", and hers just seems to be a rushed design

[@666slateran666]

Bipson happened. No reason to play her anymore

[@VarthDaver]

Don't know if it was mentioned but, against Marisa you just wake up Drive Reversal and she can't do shit about it because her best Medium Starter (5MP) is 7 frames startup.

[@old_man_fran]

As a Marisa main, my top wish wasn't even more damage. Just easier access to her current damage. It's not easy to start offence. 6fr CrMpwould be great

[@236Doodad]

Should her offense be easy to get started, considering her high damage and larger health pool?

[@nairdacnalbel]

​@@236Doodad on one hand, no. on the other hand, bison. she didn't need this until she had to directly compete with another monster of her archetype

[@old_man_fran]

@236Doodad Shouldn't be easy, but a bit easier. Bison and Akuma have air approach, dive kicks, stomps, psycho crushers, good DR, knee press... Marisa, not so much. She has slow normals in neutral and the moves that move her forward don't lead to much except drive meter deletion (that os good). But I don't think buffing her damage output to a 9k combo like suggested in the video would make the game bette

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah, I can't say it would make it better, either. But at least she'd be unique in a way. Like you REALLY have to make sure you don't f*** up. You get an OD DP blocked? You should be dead. LOL! So that justifies her being weak on HER wake-up. She should be hella scary. That's why I would go the more damage route, but it still might not solve anything. Because if she does, say, 8000 then 4000, that's no different than someone that does 5000 and 5000. You're still dead either way. She's definitely a hard one to balance from this point forward, UNLESS they also nerf Bison and Akuma a bit. But more Bison than anyone. Bison really erases a couple of other characters from the game, sadly.

[@old_man_fran]

@UltraChenTV you're right. It doesn't make much difference if you 2-touch your opponent, or if you 1,5 -touch them. KO is KO. And you can't rely on a blocked DP to be able to win the round. Big Bird dropped Marisa because she was too unstable, so maybe fix some of that. Ultimately, you can have more than one high damage fighter. They have different designs and do it in different ways. SF4 had a lot of different shades of vortex, SF6 Guile zoning isn't the same as Dhalsim zoning, and in any game there's many variations on hadoken/shoryuken game plan. Instead of leaning on always more damage, maybe tweak a little of her weaknesses. Or just reverse most of the changes and bring her back to what she was. She wasn't broken before, so don't try to fix her. That or really give her a 10k damage combo!! BWAHAHA!!!

[@fRikimaru1974]

That mic is damaged or something 😥

[@UltraChenTV]

I am perfectly aware. I need a new mic. :-(

[@rigel442]

Lol, the video had 301 views when I saw it on my feed. Reminds me of the old days.

[@HussamBelbaisy]

32:02 What is funny about grapplers haters that they are the most who use the throw button.

[@emanuel81111]

I almost forgot Marisa exist, the past month , in tournaments we see every character minus dhalsim and marisa

[@fRikimaru1974]

I said it the first time I saw him and I say it again now. Bison's bombs should be stacking type like Ryu's electric charge. If you want to use a bomb, you should need to stack it. Every time, like Ryu. Then the character would be a little more balanced and more SF6 type.

[@UltraChenTV]

Hmm. Not sure what you mean. Like he needs to refill it? Like he uses it and then needs to equip a new bomb before he can plant another one? Honestly, that's kind of... good. LOL! Then you can leave him at the damage he's at, but it requires TWO combos to get that big damage (or just a random chance to power up like Jamie after a Throw). Hmm.

[@fRikimaru1974]

@@UltraChenTV Hi. Yeah, like Ryu's. Ryu needs to stack the electricity every time, Bison's bombs are just too cheap 😅

[@Rand8688]

I mentioned this on muras Marisa vid but I think she needs a different approach she needs a new gimmick aside from just dmg since bison took that and does it better with his kit I say axe her lvl 2 and give her a makoto style install super you can even tie in the lion and call it lions roar or some crap and have it either do what makotos did in essence obviously it needs tweaking for sf6 format maybe have it boost her dmg and drive gauge chip by a percentage relative to how much health remaining etc idk but I think that would give her that ability to have you afraid to make a mistake cause she's gonna delete you if you do lol

[@GEMINIVice1]

Her dmg output is fine. Marisa’s problem is how often and how easy/difficult it is to access that dmg against a player that knows what they are doing. And on flip side, how well/poorly she is when she is the one on the back foot playing defense or in a wake up situation.

[@Gleapgoogleplusisgone]

You are being generous bison is comfortable top 2-3 and definitely the easiest to play in the game. He makes Honda look like a rocket scientist for complexity while peering rashid for strength.

[@UltraChenTV]

I mean, when we look at Singapore's results, it's pretty telling. There were like *30* Bisons in Top 96, which is INSANITY. But only one by top 8. Not only that, but every single Bison player not names HotDog29 had a secondary that they all went to a LOT during the Top 96. Bison hasn't wont anything significant yet at all. Xiao Hai at EWC was the closest, but again he also used a LOT of Ken. And he's said he is a Bison/Ken/Cammy main now, because solo Bison isn't enough. A player like Xiao Hai in control of a top3 character shouldn't have two alternates. That's all I'm saying. Bison doesn't seem to be able to cut it solo. Problem X says the same thing.

[@Gleapgoogleplusisgone]

@@UltraChenTV well I appreciate your perspective on it but I see it as people are consistently placing excellently with him with a level of play that would not rise to that level on other characters. Or to put it another way, what's the strongest character? The one who you can ek out the highest peaks with if you are an extremely talented character specialist? Or the one who can get you 99% of that way while being mid? I think the fact that bison rivals the strongest characters in game while requiring a fraction the expertise to get there makes him at least top 3 to me. Anyway like I said I appreciate the response and perspective, and thanks for the years of content!

[@UltraChenTV]

Oh yeah, you're absolutely correct on that. There are different criteria for what makes the strongest character. Ease of use is definitely a major factor. Like in ST, Vega (Claw) and Dhalsim are always considered top 2. But most give #1 spot to Vega simply because he's brain deadly easier to use than Dhalsim. But that's also why I keep saying *I'M* not convinced he's top 5, because I know it's me and that most people who put him top 5 are correct because he's STUPIDLY good. The game is at a good point where basically any top 10 tier list is pretty much justifiable given the different people we run into and the difference experiences we have. So I think the game is in a good state.

[@hjblacdes61]

10:50 bro don't want an OD DP, he wants an OD. DP. like a genocide cutter or something i guess

[@fRikimaru1974]

Kim does little damage, but if you buff her maybe she would become too powerful. Maybe some little less scaling but nothing more. Instead of that, I think she needs some wall bounce moves, not like Guy's, but like Maki's. And the spray cans should be a little less expensive and the double can should have a little delay between the explosions. That would be an awesome character. Well, maybe a fake teleport too, someone that let her in the same place or something, to bait opponents.

[@UltraChenTV]

Agreed. AGREED. That's why all my changes to her are never that extreme. She's not good, but yet at the same time she is SO dangerous of being buffed into broken tier without even really significant changes. I'd be just as sad if she got buffed into super power status as her not getting buffed at all. She really needs a good corner escape. Rashid has a Wall Jump AND the Air Eagle Spike so he gets out for free and has a better corner mixup and has an OD DP. So it's like... you definitely can give Kimberly some form of Wall Jump. LOL! And for Neutral, she needs *something* a bit better. I like the idea of her using cans, but they're so expensive to use in Neutral and have none left for a corner mixup. And the difference in timing between the 3 explosions is really ignorable. Having Light and Heavy timers would probably be enough. Like if she had all the Shorter Timers on Punches with all three ranges and the longer timer on Kicks with all three ranges, that might help her a bit more. Also, as I've said, refill should give her two cans every time. OD Refill should let you refill while a can is on screen. Either Punch or Kick activates refills the same when you have no cans with the change above.

[@fRikimaru1974]

@@UltraChenTV Yeah, look at Maki's bounce options, they are awesome. She has 6 different wall bounce options. Two kicks attacks at different distances, two grabs at different distances too and a more normal bounce that just let her bounce further and a last option that is just fall without bouncing.

[@UltraChenTV]

Oh, I was a Maki main at one point in CvS2. One of my most proud moments was Nuki telling me my Maki was very strong when we played a bunch of casuals at Southern Hills Golfland after one Evo. ^_^ It's why I play Kim. I've always like the Final Fight Ninja characters. I played Guy, Maki, Lucia, and now Kim.

[@fRikimaru1974]

@@UltraChenTV Wow, didn't know that 😲 I love CVS2 Maki 😋

[@arsonne]

Capcom ruined Marisa, but they have already shown that they aren't even really going to worry about trying to make the low tiers good enough, while they won't let the poster boys go half a season without being relevant. Marisa, Jamie, Lily, etc will get left to rot.

[@MrWoodsman]

I get wanting her to be more relevant but she's way harder to reasonably buff than Jamie or Lily. One wrong move and you've got SFV Abigail all over again.

[@emanuel81111]

Capcom made Zangief top 5 and then lowered him a bit , There is still hope for low tier character

[@arsonne]

@@MrWoodsman She was fine where she was in season 1, though. They just nerfed and changed her for no reason.

[@old_man_fran]

Maybe so, maybe no. I mained Cody thru all of SF4 and 5, and in SF5 he started as being seen as below average and by the end it was considered top tier.

[@PoojaMan64]

They buffed aki, ed, ryu, and geif out of low/mid tier patience my child

[@chimpmasterflex]

I find it kind of interesting when people don't think Bison is a clear top 3-ish, but my hot take is that akuma isn't up there lol. I find akuma way more easy to deal with overall, than ed, rashid and bison, and I also consider him as the top-tier gatekeeper. Kind of like where Juri was last season. Like definitely up there because he has all of the tools you would want, but not clear cut the best. My season 3 hopes are also pretty low as of now. I'd love to be proven wrong, but they've hardly done much drastic, in terms of mechanics or balancing. A few frames up or down here or there, and there's your patch lol.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah. To be honest, I am not far off from where you are. Singapore definitely raised Akuma's stock in my eyes a bit, but Bison still vanished by Top 8 outside of DCQ, and everyone at Singapore who played Bison has a secondary. Even Problem X echoes a lot of this sentiment, thinking Bison isn't stable enough to be a solo main. The ONLY player to make top 16 with a solo Bison was HotDog29. But outside of that, every Bison user has a secondary and most of them busts out these secondaries in a lot of matches. It's weird.

[@chimpmasterflex]

@@UltraChenTV I wanted to add, that even me saying Akuma is like season 1 Juri in terms of balance, she still won capcom cup. Despite most people probably picking 5 or so characters to win instead of her. The strengths are there for sure obviously. To me, Bison is sort of the sf4 seth of this game, where he is clearly amazing, with just the tiniest bits of downside, so he isn't winning everything. I don't care if I can "rush him down" or he has limited defensive options, when it feels like I can't do much when I'm cornered vs him (even without a bomb). Just very swingy stuff.

[@EAprima]

This is precisely why the Top 7 characters in the game need to be nerfed. Other than the inclusion of Bison, the Top 7 listing on both tournament entries and results hasn't changed since the game's release. Time for a change is long overdue; JP should have never been re-buffed and characters such as Zangief should have never been nerfed. I said it before, I'll never understand Capcom thinking in regards to nerfing Zangief and their business priorities. I think it's very important to account the number of character placements and rankings in a tournament result as a strong reference to tiers. It isn't purely about winning. For example, Kusanagi won with Ryu but when you look at all the tournament results and rankings since game launch, Ryu has been barely seen anywhere thus making Kusunagi victory more of an exception. This is especially so when you consider the shenanigans Kusanagi had to employ to achieve success. Other than that, what I like most is you can see people are really improving, understanding that SF6 is a completely different system from previous SF games. I really hope Capcom will shake up the entire roster soon but I guess we will not get any hint of change until Season 3 which is far away. To make Ryu more viable and competitive with the A-tier characters, here are 12 buffs Capcom should implement: 1. **Make Ryu's standing medium kick cancelable to DP** : This change would significantly improve his gameplay. 2. **Adjust his crouching medium sweep** : Either extend its collision box or reduce its frames to 7, similar to Ken's. 3. **Restore his original Super Street Fighter II ground Tatsu properties** : This should include invincibility frames at the start of the move. 4. **Reintroduce the Air Tatsu mechanics from original Super Street Fighter II** : This will allow for more strategic use in battles. 5. **Enhance Ryu's Level 2 attack** : Increase its blast range and invincibility frames to match Akuma's Level 3. 6. **Allow Ryu to stock more than one Denjin** : This would provide him with greater versatility. 7. **Enhance Ryu's Forward Strong Kick** : Give it the same properties as Zangief's and Luke's rising knee attacks, allowing it to clear sweep attacks for easier follow-ups. 8. **Modify Ryu's strong Hashogeki** : Allow it to hit twice if the opponent parries the first hit, similar to other characters with double hits. 9. **Adjust Ryu's air OD Tatsu** : Give opponents a bit more hang time, enabling Ryu to follow up with a DP or a High Blade kick in the corner instead of leaving him stuck with either Lvl1, Lvl3 or nothing. 10. **Change Denjin Hadouken and Denjin Hashogeki inputs** : Set them to Weak and Medium Punch instead of Strong Punch, allowing the use of strong Hadouken and strong Hashogeki as needed. 11. **Allow Ryu to slightly move or lean back before using strong Hashogeki** : This would improve its effectiveness for counterattacks and setups. Similar to Luke's back and strong punch and his Flash Knuckle, and Zangief's back and strong punch. 12. **Increase hang-time for opponents punished by Ryu's Weak or Medium Hashogeki** : This would enhance Ryu's ability to capitalize on punish counters. These changes would help Ryu become a more competitive character in the current meta.

[@Sergio-wc1wn]

Manon can’t drive rush overhead because she doesn’t have a raw overhead button.

[@UltraChenTV]

And she's the ONLY character besides Kimberly who's overhead scales damage. :-( Not as badly was Kimberly's (75% vs. 90% I think), but still. *Those* two have the scaling Overheads? Why? WHY?

[@Brubrukk]

The last straw for me with this game was when I saw no Lily changes in the latest balance patch, 2 boring guest characters, and not having enough of resources to get the SF4 music. So glad I didn't buy any dlc. Hoping to come back to a better game in a few years when the roster is finished.

[@depictiongames9758]

Wild take tbh

[@chm2]

Honestly

[@UltraChenTV]

Honestly, to be honest, in all honety, etc. I don't know why I'm obsessed with those phrases. LOL! Maybe because I was such a liar when I was in grade school. Hahaha.

[@lionelsteele007]

Kimberly is a joke character like Sean and Dan Hibiki...

[@UltraChenTV]

;_;

[@VitorCosta40]

Sean is not a joke character, Capcom just nerfed him into oblivion in SF3 Third Strike. Meanwhile in SF3 New Generation and SF3 2nd Impact Giant Attack he is top tier

[@236Doodad]

Anyone else notice how James is the only fgc talking head that pronounces Marisa correctly lol? Everyone else says Marissa.

[@UltraChenTV]

LOL! I try to pronounce all the names correctly. There are a couple I intentionally still pronounce wrong because people aren't used to the real pronunciations (aka Juli and Juni who are supposed to be pronounced "Yoonie and Yoolee"), but I even try calling Karin "Kah-reen" most of the time when talking about her. In match, I say "Care-in" because I don't want to distract viewers that much. It's weird that I do that, but I think about a lot of weird things about my commentarty. Hahaha.

[@236Doodad]

@@UltraChenTV Well just know that someone out there appreciates your concern for accuracy. There aren't many of us out here, but we're here :)

[@TheLordofturtles]

Marisa's design simply doesn't mesh well with how the game tends to be played currently. I feel like she should be a character against whom the opponent should be more or less walking on eggshells and have to be very mindful about how they approach because of her potential to punish mistakes with high damage. In reality the best way to approach her is often to simply overwhelm her since she has weak and/or situational defensive tools that also just so happens to just straight up lose to some of the strongest and most common offensive tools (throws, lows/low-hitting and multi-hit moves). She's also in a weird spot regarding her actual damage output from punishes since it really only starts to become above average in situations where the opponent is at least -8. It seems to me more or less antithetical for a character like Marisa to have one of the absolute worst punishes (only quite stubby lights) for blocking a global defensive tool like drive reversal when in season one she probably had the best bar none.

[@UltraChenTV]

Honestly, SHE should have Bison's Scissor Kick. That's how she should be playing, being SUPER scary with a Punish Counter / Counter Hit weapon that leads into combos. Obviously, she can't do the damage she does if she had a tool like that, she'd have to have some "Bomb" mechanic as well. But really, Bison has completely overtaken Marisa and Kimberly's gameplans. It's really unfortunate.

[@fRikimaru1974]

Those DR combos are just too much. When the chains start, I immediately get bored... I think at least the "fast DR" should cost the same that the normal ones so the chains would be a little shorter.

[@watchmesquatch]

So you want the game to be even more boring?

[@fRikimaru1974]

@@watchmesquatch No. I've said that those long combos bore me so if they were a little shorter I guess the game would be less boring. Pure logic.

[@Friedafterbirth]

I just had a thought. What if, WHAT IF, one if the next DLC characters is...... a Darkstalker character?!

[@JS-zz9lg]

Former Marisa player here, Bison invalidates her, theres 0 reason to pick her when Bison does what she wants but better in every way

[@azizkash286]

Not even bison bro, everyone does insane dmg rn. Bison akuma aki zangief and more. Marisa is literally a useless character that has nothing going for her