TF2's Most Unnecessary Random Mechanic

[@ralphthejedimaster]

random bullet spread is like a mildly less egregious form of the old random damage spread that people hated so much, but only affecting shotguns.

[@turmspitzewerk]

random bullet spread is on nearly EVERYTHING, yet valve only lets you tweak shotguns with the command. pistols, flamethrowers, grenade launchers, sticky launchers, miniguns, needle guns, SMGs, and revolvers. really, the only things that aren't random are melee weapons, most projectiles, snipers, and sentries. personally, i kinda don't care about shotgun spread. not because i don't think we shouldn't remove randomness, but because its a bit of an unfair buff to shotguns when everything else has to suffer.

[@ralphthejedimaster]

@@turmspitzewerk i would personally take spread off of everything except miniguns, and maybe pistols because long range spam on sentries *could* be too strong on classes that aren't supposed to do well against sentries, unsure on that one. on sticky launchers its so minimal that you can hardly notice it even holding your crosshair still and spamming left click, but sure why not take it off. spy revolvers have no reason to have it and are probably the most impacted after stuff like pistols and shotguns

[@nobleradical2158]

@@turmspitzewerk The reason those other guns have randomness is to make them not amazing at sniping, which this game tries to avoid. There's a reason the amby was nerfed, and only 1 class does good damage at long range (and is hated for it).

[@turmspitzewerk]

@@nobleradical2158 yeah, it was nerfed to have damage falloff, not to make it more inaccurate. the reason it was good is because it was one of the few weapons that essentially had no falloff. there's no reason any other weapon in the game can't get the same treatment.

[@nobleradical2158]

@@turmspitzewerk All other weapons have the same treatment already. What do you mean by that last sentence?

[@CoolstuffTF2]

And now we wait for the video about the random fall damage :D

[@KozelPraiseGOELRO]

Now about random match making.

[@scribbles24]

Wasn't that removed in a recent update?

[@KozelPraiseGOELRO]

@@scribbles24 Shshsh, let the boy suffer, I enjoy it.

[@thunderspark1536]

Then after that remove random players so it's always the same match over and over and over again.

[@tootheinternet]

​@@scribbles24 Nope. They just added convar to disable it but it's still on by default.

[@jakeraines8046]

the real problem IMO is the fact that the fixed spread is statistically smaller than the non-fixed. if they made the non-fixed spread the same size as the fixed then I think the difference would be way less noticeable

[@ralphthejedimaster]

oh absolutely, if the cone was the same size as the fixed spread then it would be very hard to see the difference

[@champagnesupernova1839]

I'd say maybe make it *slightly* larger than fixed, but otherwise yeah

[@danielszilagyi9112]

I would still prefer a consistant amount of damage rather then gambling.

[@valforeststorm6908]

Random spread bullets do not fire at the edge of the max spread every time, on average they would shoot around were the fixed spread would be. If the fixed spread was the same as max random spread it would be near worst case scenario when firing at long range. The bullets would be less lopsided, but would be more spread out than average random spread bullets.

[@champagnesupernova1839]

@@valforeststorm6908 you haven't played the game have you

[@bananaspice1967]

Me when my crit frontier justice shot only deals 18 damage when I'm only 4 feet away from my opponent

[@bananaspice1967]

@SithLordTP Relatable

[@mewcat6063]

nah nah nah, when my frontier justice misses completely at point blank

[@SimoneBellomonte]

@@bananaspice1967 What did he say?

[@bananaspice1967]

@@SimoneBellomonte i forgor

[@OMGREALDUMMYFROMDVN]

3 damage

[@greensharktwod]

“Random bullet spread doesn’t matter, you just suck” The 7 damage shot I did from 18 hammer units:

[@Guhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh]

A year ago I had the idea of there being 9 circles that a billet could be in when shooting, making it still random looking but spread evenly

[@QuintessentialWalrus]

This is a good compromise IMO. The reason almost every shooter on the market has random bullet spread to some degree is because it looks really weird and unnatural when it's not there. If you had a square filled with 9 small circles, and one pellet would end up somewhere in each circle, that gives the advantages of each style. This is actually kinda how CS:GO's shotguns work -- there's random spread, but it's within a consistent pattern you can predict.

[@TheLetterJ13]

i think 1 perfectly accurate pellet +4 semi--accurate pellets +4 outliers would work, a dot, a small circle & a big circle.

[@thebushbros6626]

@@TheLetterJ13 There’s always one pellet that’s always accurate. If you want more information, watch Jane’s video about it

[@TheLetterJ13]

@@thebushbros6626 i know

[@SimoneBellomonte]

@@QuintessentialWalrus Tbh random spread should just disappear, it’s ancient “game design”, has no purpose and doesn’t make the game funny at all, at least random crits make the weapon glow and shits, funny the first few times then you start hating them too lol.

[@Duck0.1]

7:47 the beggars bazooka: am I a joke to you

[@JoseHernandez-pd5qw]

Lmao was thinking that too

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

yes, yes it is

[@Silkunii]

Yes.

[@GrueTurtle]

yes

[@pinkius]

Yeah, I also thought about that. But it's balanced because it also shoots 3 rockets in very quick sequence, instead of 1. And don't get me started on Original and Standard Rocket Launcher :D

[@jaidynodom707]

10:20 attention to detail, the medic's "animation" is choppier because of the ping thing.

[@TheSnowm]

This video's got Incredible attention to detail, nice job catching that one

[@maxresdefault_]

Random bloom also makes the cone of damage larger (Zesty uploaded a video about it a few hours ago) making shotguns feel even worse at any range. Not sure why this mechanic hasn't taken the Damage Spread route and just been written out of casual

[@SnazzySMM]

Because shotguns are ***supposed*** to do smaller damage at larger ranges in video games??????

[@blakjaket4472]

@@SnazzySMM turn off random spread but make the cone larger to lower shotgun damage at range

[@SnazzySMM]

@@blakjaket4472 Erm ackshuwally with fixed spread its not a cone its er pyramid, but yeah, if they were actually similar in size instead of fixed being much tighter then i really wouldnt care

[@SimoneBellomonte]

@@SnazzySMM Damage falloff exists…….

[@getaround1276]

@snazzymakesmusic this aint cod, tf2 shotguns arent close range 1 hit beasts they're a respectable mid range burst damage option and random spread kinda kneecaps them

[@ktom6757]

Also real shotguns have much better range that practically any videogame depictions them having for the sake of balance, like you can still do some serious damage at 100 feet. Meaning a "realistic" shotgun could at the very least 2 tap light classes from the far side of the 2Fort bridge.

[@SimoneBellomonte]

Yeah lol.

[@artifactU]

snipins a good job mate

[@MaidofRage420]

I mostly play Heavy and use the shotguns on occasion and I tend to not notice RBS too much. But Scout on the other hand is a whole different story for me with RBS

[@Chimpin_]

real heavy main what?????

[@S_whoelse]

THIS, I have never seen this adresses in Zesty's video or in any other video on this topic. Both scout and engi can play the game by getting big meatshots right in someone's face (or at least in mid/close range), and if these meatshots are a TAD bit off then you *might* deal a measly 40 damage to that 80 health soldier instead of the damage you should have dealt, making the encounter either way more stressful or downright unsatisfying due to a shred of aim issues. The most funny thing about it is that, main rebuttal is all about AIM but I never see anyone addressing this humble themselves. They always act like the shit as though they know when someone has a "skill issue" and its "a negligible problem to someone that has good aim". Quite ironic

[@stooie]

10:20 the med slides in a little bit choppier cause higher ping the attention to detail is crazy

[@Luigi1000]

If you want a good in depth technical explanation of how Random Bullet Spread works take a look at Zesty's recent video on fixed spread. It not only explains it, but also the consequences of both removing and keeping it.

[@BrochachoTheBro]

Yeah but fuck Zesty

[@btcbuster5556]

i hate that guy, hes just a jerk

[@AmeliaDoesYT]

Did you watch the video?

[@Luigi1000]

@@BrochachoTheBro Hate him or not, he does still go in depth about mechanics of things which is still interesting.

[@Luigi1000]

@@AmeliaDoesYT Ya I did, gave it a full watch to allow the points to be made. I just feel a lot of the mechanical and in depth parts about RBS are further explained in Zesty's video compared to this one which has a rather surface layer.

[@champagnesupernova1839]

the main issue i have with random bullet spread is just how far the bullets can go from the fixed position. if it was a lot closer to the same size, i think it would be more fair.

[@champagnesupernova1839]

I think it was shounic who made a video on the mechanics behind random bullet spread? either way, the video showed just how wide the spread is compared to fixed.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

ye, agreed.

[@urgadurga]

it's crazy how, despite tf2 having some of the best mechanics ive ever experienced in a video game, it has/had 3 of the most awful, unnecessary pieces of bad game design i have EVER seen, like random bullet spread, random crits, and random damage spread at one point. like seriously, the 3 worst mechanics i have ever heard of in all my time playing video games. take a game that is fundamentally skill intensive, and just remove people's ability to express that skill. or reward them unfairly.

[@Mud-Brain]

Hold up, that FaN spread is wild. Three pellets in one spot on the right side specifically. It's like the left barrel is plugged.

[@whoopas312]

Everyone wants random bullet spread off until a mini crit boosted shortstop scout rolls up in your game

[@shawermus]

Tbh I tried that. Died in like 5 seconds. (Prob because I suck and it was uncletopia, but still unviable as hell)

[@Svettanka]

It doesn't really matter if random bloom is on or off because the scout is going to djd anyway because he takes so much damage using the soda anyway.

[@Nitosa]

​@@Svettanka there is where the soda is for because when you crit(mini) it ignores damage fall off, which can do some pretty nutty damage from mid to far range.

[@Nitosa]

​@@Svettanka so getting close is pretty much a death sentence, which is the reason for the short stop for its tighter bullet spread on and off

[@Jakebun_]

So true, without RBS it's just another buff to scout

[@stkupsvideos7480]

It is funny in that in my engineer frag video, this is one kill where I needed to use 5 shots to kill a pyro at the same distance. The shots’ damage was also inconsistent per shot. Great video, well researched and amazing analysis!

[@redstonewarrior0152]

My solution would be to reduce the area by which those random pellets can be placed in. Cause uhh... Random bullet spread currently makes it so that shotguns have a wider area they can hit in vs fixed spread. And it isn't a small decrease in potential accuracy, it is a large one. Now something fun with fixed spread, it can actually allow you to place your target between the pellets. Random spread however makes that a little less likely.

[@goombarowboat1270]

Counterargument #2 is basically saying “well it doesn’t REALLY affect the game,” but if that’s the case why should it even exist? At best it’s exactly the same as fixed bullet spread and at worst it adds meaningless inconsistency that makes the game worse.

[@ojhat]

once again commenting to petition that I'd love to see differently shaped bullet patterns for each pellet-shotgun, with each shape offering slightly different styles of play. taking into account the 10 pellets that most of the weapons use, shapes such as: - A standing triangle with broader corners than the standard square, but smaller inner sides. - A tightly spaced Diamond with no center bullet, spacing the center 2 evenly along the x axis, the marksman's shotgun (but should go to like the reserve shooter (but maybe reworked to deal less base dmg but in return better reward those blast air shots) or the family business, or something that trades base damage for tighter precision, but is not to the level of the shortstop - A 5-5 2-column line meant to be spaced to reward near-perfect x-axis accuracy, but suffer if you shoot just a little left or right of your target. - 3 horizontal rows of 3, 4, and 3 pellets close together, not quite as spaced out as the panic attack, but useful for like the widowmaker for always getting some edge on targets, especially crowd shoot-ups - A center X of 5 pellets, with a tighter row of 3 on the bottom and 2 on the top giving an oblong egg shape of sorts, maybe for the BBB so it has a bit more central meat to the shots even when further away. - a wide circle of 9 pellets with a single central pellet in the center. poor spread, but meant for a weapon like the backscatter where the upclose and personal could make a huge difference (i dunno, just throwing out ideas I've had in my head since UnusualSandwich's first video on this) none of these are perfectly thought out or maybe even balanced, but I love the concept of unique pellet patterns as a replacement to RBS

[@Subject_GR33N]

In some cases, RBS can outright kill weapons for me, the shortstop being the perfect example as such. While RBS is far from the shortstop's biggest issue as a scattergun, it certainly doesn't do it any favors either. The shortstop having less pellets per shot and those pellets each dealing more damage means that the punishment of potential damage lost is so much greater despite it doing less damage than scout's other primaries. So while RBS may not play as big of a role due to the tighter spread, when it does work against you, the effects of it are noticeably greater. Every time I've tried using this thing, no matter how long I train with it to get used to it, I end up just using it at close range as a diet FaN or soda popper because the spread and damage falloff combined makes this thing pretty much unusable for its advertised range. Hell it's better to use it at that range because at least then if you can actually aim with the tighter spread, RBS is less likely to fuck you over, which is both harder to do than with other scatterguns and less rewarding per shot compared to other options. You constantly fight against the design of the weapon itself more so than the actual enemy team as a result. Which is why the shortstop is the one weapon that I would say isn't even up for debate for having its bullet spread fixed, similar to the panic attack, due to it functionally behaving so different from other shotguns. You are seriously telling me the shotgun best suited for point blank range gets a fixed spread, yet the shotgun that is supposed to operate at mid-range just doesn't get it? Despite it dealing less damage at close range than its competition and basically the same at mid and long range (per shot) anyway because of the fewer pellets? The shortstop is already crippled by its mediocre damage, and RBS is just the nail in the coffin for this thing to me. Thank you for reading my unhinged rant on my poor boy that valve massacred.

[@StrikerElite923]

I think people just wanted to keep random bullet spread just to keep Scout in check, but I think it's stupid and is why Soldier and Demoman have so many mains, I actually ranted about this years ago and I'm glad you made this video.

[@afkijkuit4057]

Random bullet spread also fucks with the frontier justice a lot. There's been a lot of times when I only did 18 damage at medium range and wasted a revenge crit.

[@whoopas312]

@@JohnDoe-px6nl its to prevent sniping people from across the map

[@BackStreetMan]

@@JohnDoe-px6nl revolvers 100% need random bullet spread for balance purposes.

[@chop25official]

9:08 In real life, a shotgun would blow open your chest like a fat kid with a bag of doritos faster than you actually call for medic.....

[@thefatherlydecoration4629]

One thing that is never brought up with rbs on shotguns, is that rbs isn't always negative. in zestys video on the topic, he recorded an average damage spread on the shotgun. He found that about 20 percent of the time, you'll be doing more damage than fixed spread. Which is a point that is undermined, occasionally you are worse for no reason or better for no reason. Basically being soft random crits. And on the topic of it being not noticable so therefore just keep it, If it's that unnoticable then why have it.

[@Svettanka]

Yeah, rbs does more damage than fixed 20% of the time. What about the other 80%? I would rather be doing damage consistently at all ranges.

[@thefatherlydecoration4629]

@@Svettanka Same here, I want consistency, not a chance to do more or less. It's not needed at all, it's a worthless mechanic that sits next to random damage spread and random crits in terms of worthlessness. All of these mechanics are garbage that delute the cool balance and gameplay of TF2.

[@skeletorthebest7204]

You’re not even quoting the video right: he said that “the shotguns will do 20% more damage on average”. The problem though, is that this forgoes consistency.

[@thefatherlydecoration4629]

@@skeletorthebest7204 Thanks for the correction (sorry if this sounds sarcastic)

[@SimoneBellomonte]

Because it has 0 purpose, so counter-argument if it’s unnoticeable then why even have it in the first place?

[@TheStarMachine2000]

"It's how real shotguns work" also flops based on the fact that shotgun shells will have a LOT more than ten pellets in the shell. Those are more like a cloud of tiny bullets

[@TheMagnumDon]

I feel like Random Chance is best when it essentially acts as a fluctuation of difficulty where the hardest is still fun and playable if you have enough skill.

[@SurrogateActivities]

man the development of tf2 mustve been so scuffed. on one hand its some genius design. on the other theyre discussing how to include randomness. when all mfps games before were super consistent and even having cybersport events, talking about quake and cs here. what was their idea? maybe, because this was part of orange box, they expected a wave of new fps gamers. so they decided to focus on fun and easy access

[@boomknight1015]

9:10 Wrong, that counterargument is so wrong. If it was real life, shotguns, namely ones with spread would be deadly in single shots up well past the ranges this game uses. Basically slugs would out range sniper with many pelts would out range solly's max drop off. Shot guns are "short ranged" Yet if ported right to video games they would be one shot monsters from across the map because the ranges games deal with are too close.

[@ehamii9227]

Hot take but I would rather get rid of random bullet spread than random crits

[@JoseHernandez-pd5qw]

I actually agree with you there. Random crits is something everyone complains about but it's unique to tf2.

[@ehamii9227]

@Fujitachi random crits come into play a few times each round. random bullet spread affects me every single time I fire my shotgun

[@ehamii9227]

@Fujitachi I'm not saying crits dont affect the game or they're not annoying. I fucking hate random crits. But random bullet spread affects my game damn near constantly if I'm playing almost half the classes in the game. It's just a question of what I encounter more frequently

[@ehamii9227]

@Fujitachi you're good. I probably wouldn't care as much if my favourite classes weren't engie and scout lol

[@SlenchFan]

In terms of game design, having players access multiple characters or options is more random than it is orderly. It is not expressly random, but it falls into the vertiginous fun that games offer. Without vertigo and chaos (multiple options for play, in this example), games become boring. That’s why vertigo in game design is so important. Otherwise we’d all be playing Ryu vs Ryu mirror matches all day and Soldier 1v1s exclusively. So, in multiplayer games, randomness is actually key to a fun experience. Promoting only static, skill based play results in a game that is boring and, in my opinion, often toxic.

[@nobleradical2158]

True, but I'm sure you're aware that RBS isn't random in those ways; it's not another option, just a dice roll on top of an otherwise skilled interaction.

[@ultra2424]

skill based play is the opposite of boring in my opinion, it’s what makes games fun for me in the first place. I fucking love going from being a dude who gets his ass kicked every hour to improving and starting to kick ass back. randomness is an important element to some games, like mario party, or literally any card game, but it feels incredibly out of place in team fortress. despite how wacky it all is, even in casual tf2 is still a tactical shooter, it’s all about setting up defenses, pushing the enemy, getting in the perfect position to cripple the enemy, and working together as a team. but adding randomness just in my opinion takes away from the obvious depth tf2 has and makes it a worse experience. imagine if everytime you used a hadouken as ryu the damage it does and the speed at which it traveled the screen was completely random, it takes away from the obvious skill it takes to play the game and rips control away from the player, and that just sucks.

[@SimoneBellomonte]

If I liked RNG that much, I’ll just go and play slot machines… also this only applies to single-player (somewhat), it’s funny the first few times you kill someone out of luck, then it becomes boring, not to mention frustrating when you die to a random crit yourself, literally the opposite of fun lmao, dumbest argument ever.

[@SimoneBellomonte]

Also there’s almost no RNG in Street Fighter lmao.

[@SimoneBellomonte]

@@ultra2424 Hell I hate RNG so much that I want it to disappear even in card games lol, anyway I completely agree with you man. Also Pfp Sauce (Artist)? 🗿

[@JohnnyS263]

For something teased as "the definitive RBS analysis" in your last video and with a title citing that it "NEEDS to GO," this video really isn't persuasive in the slightest. More time is spent illustrating that it's a mechanic no one really notices than is spent making strong arguments for its removal. In the absence of these arguments, the counterarguments seem to be presented in their worst possible form for the sake of having an easy to tear down strawman and are padded with "nothing" counterarguments like #1 and #5 to make the whole seem weaker through dilution. I'd even argue that some points are misrepresented - for example the "real comments about RBS" don't explicitly shift any blame onto one's aim, one of which even hints that the key to 'get good' is to get closer. In regards to RBS, I have very little stake in the game, believing in something like counterargument #3 with a dash of #6 myself but would not really miss it were it to go. Shotguns being somewhat unreliable at mid-range helps incentivize getting closer using your movement in a close-ranged movement-based game in tandem with mechanics like ramp-up, without having to make the standard shotgun spread so large that it makes shotguns outright useless at said mid-range. The negative impacts of RBS seem constantly overblown to me, the shotgun isn't the primary source of damage for 3/5 classes that can equip it, while the 2 classes who have shotguns in their primary slot have a pistol in their secondary to use at the ranges where RBS might make shotguns too inconsistent; the Engy additionally having a sentry gun and the Scout not only having increased ramp up but two unlocks that push for meatshots. In addition, every hitscan weapon in TF2 aside from the sniper rifle has some form of spread, not only adding to the uniqueness of said rifle, but calling into question why shotguns shouldn't have said spread if the others should. These aren't exactly beliefs I would die on a hill for, but my fair-weather relationship with them hasn't been shaken by, or even really questioned by, this video.

[@june9914]

I think you’re approaching shotguns as if people are using them as their main source of offense like scout. Shotguns with pyro and soldier work as a combo once the enemy is juggled, or as self defense while they travel and would need two set/revv up with engi and heavy. In both cases they’re not exactly working with full damage ramp up and point blank shots the way scout can, so all random bullet spread is just throw inconsistency in what should be a consistent option four the class (I know lunchbox items are more used on heavy, but that’s coz good positioning solves issues of not being able two rev in time)

[@Hixoltage]

me when i confuse buckshot with a old volley fire gun. (look it up it has 12 barrels)

[@piper7024]

The best argument for making fixed bullet spread the default for casual is the fact that Valve did away with random *damage* spread years ago, and we were better off for it. Random damage spread was awful and inconsistent, not rewarding skill whatsoever and leaving a lot of damage up to completely random chance.

[@Bread-kun]

The damage spread argument kicked up when you had the loch n load and direct hit able to just randomly 1 hit some classes while they were stock by pure rng. It was fuckin stupid.

[@shawermus]

The random crits are good because they aren't balanced _for a reason,_ they make the game funnier, and somehow, no matter how paradoxical it is, they make it fair in some situations (when your team gets steamrolled, and when a tryhard is getting 40+ killstreaks) Random damage decrease on the other hand, isn't a random reward, while crits are annoying and fun based on pov, random damage in any form is just... Annoying.

[@Svettanka]

@@shawermus They make the game funnier for the person who rolled a random crit*

[@rejvaik00]

@@shawermus he's right you know

[@SimoneBellomonte]

@@Bread-kun Yeah lol, and this is basically the same thing, random spread allows you to either kill in situations where fixed spread wouldn’t be able to, or viceversa, either way it’s the exact same thing as random damage.

[@detcader_]

9:11 to people who say this, if you’ve ever seen a real buckshot then you would have to argue that the cone be significantly reduced. Shotguns irl also have a fair bit of range compared to their average fps counterparts.

[@whynotanyting]

Only argument I disagree with is at 10:54. Shotguns were designed to be close-to-mid range weapons, even training mode tells you to use it as such. If you need to deal damage outside of this range you better have equipped a weapon that is suited for longer ranges or close that gap. In the case of the scout, his secondary pistol and his speedy n' jumpy boi legs. For pyro, the flare gun (or equivalent) or the thermal thruster.

[@SimoneBellomonte]

Damage falloff

[@highmedic2351]

They removed damage randomizer, and now it's time for random spread to be removed. Also, remove random crits.

[@Big_RandyTM]

Nah, random crits are kind of funny. While it sucks when your opponent gets one, I’m willing to take that for the satisfaction of hitting a random crit.

[@highmedic2351]

@@Big_RandyTM Funny is subjective, and I personally gain no satisfaction from acquiring one.

[@Big_RandyTM]

@@highmedic2351 Womp womp

[@highmedic2351]

@@Big_RandyTM I actually quit the game for many reasons, but random crits were definitely a huge one. I mostly played on Uncletopia though, but it was always the same maps/modes/ anyway.

[@dartagnangray1501]

I think you missed the most important argument for removing rbs, the fixed pattern is about 50% smaller than the rbs cone. That's a major reason why you notice when it's turned off. Zesty jesus made a short video recently about it, I dont neccesarily agree with his opinion on the topic but his explanation on how it realistically affects play is good

[@trollman_2345]

"Imagine how people would feel like if rockets deviated- even if the spread was minimal" *meaningful glance towards the beggar's*

[@jackoherone8172]

To somewhat buff the pistols (and SMGs) accuracies, they could make it like the ambassador, the reticle spreads and becomes innacurate, shooting on bursts to maximize damage at range, and maybe lower the damage on very long ranges That could also work for the Tomislav, probably.

[@Sigwion]

Middle of the road: Lock the central pellets per shot but let the dice roll on the rest.

[@AliceLoverdrive]

It already works that way

[@pikaspoop5042]

Honestly I'm torn on random bullet spread. On one hand I understand that some players dislike inconsistent pellet spread, as it makes long-range shots less viable. However, that's how shotguns are supposed to work. On top of that, fixed spread actually increases the effective range of shotguns giving them a straight up buff (as shown in Zesty's most recent video).

[@skyper8934]

Shotguns can be used as sniper rifles irl. It doesn't lose strength and a pellet hitting you it's almost no different from a pistol shot. And they are reliable and accurate, it doesn't hit stuff sideways

[@evdestroy5304]

@@skyper8934 Just like rocket launchers can be used to jump irl

[@bonkloud8182]

did you watch the video@@evdestroy5304

[@randomperson7350]

Tf2 isn't realistic at all, randomness shouldn't be a factor when balancing

[@evdestroy5304]

@@randomperson7350 But it is.

[@painfulcrowd]

the big reason why i dont entirely like random spread is if you look at 4:56 a shotgun would not spread that far and loose so close to the wall, so if you ask me all that needs to happen is that cone needs to be tightened, not ALOT but significantly so that way your pellets dont randomly fly up to space like you see here

[@Neotenico]

The argument starting around 10:25 is my main issue with RBS. Even if the outcome of a fight is affected by random bullet spread less than 1% of the time, it's more a matter of principal to me. If two players are playing the exact same class with the exact same loadout over a LAN network, the only factors that should influence the fight are their own skills (movement and aim). The other thing to note is that the argument "It barely affects your aim if at all" is in itself a logical fallacy, specifically an appeal to probability. An argument based on the fact that "it's not even that significant," isn't an argument.

[@CorwinTheOneAndOnly]

Another note about the pistol, smg, and revolver is that they are all effectively secondaries, while shotguns are either functional primaries or alternative primaries for a lot of classes. (I would say they're alternative primaries for soldier and pyro as soldier and pyro's primaries also double as utility while the shotgun is just pure damage)

[@boomknight1015]

SCouting in Mvm, you feel this the hardest. Due to everything going on lag is common but some times pelts end up on the side with out the bot making you miss all of your damage, even when you are just a pixel off target with the middle pelt.

[@O5MO]

The problem with RBS is that its too random. If there the distributions of pellets was such that there are more pellets closer to the crosshair, and less farther away it would make sense. But currently its just random or the diffrence is minimal.

[@isekawai]

I know some about game mechanics. In tf2 there are a lot of mechanics that may not be explaned to players, like random crits and bullet spread. But as random crits can be clear as day when it helps or punishes you, bullet spread isn't as noticeable while having much more effect on game outcomes. A simple random crit can save a game but rarely have an effect on games other than sending players back to respawn. Random crits are kinda rare, but bullet spread is in every shot of shotgun. Sadly there was way to many times when one more bullet would have made me a winner. Havind really good aim is just not revarding in this game with shotguns,having the crosshair right on the target and hiting 3 pellets... while rockets have fixed explosion radious is kinda not fair. Back to the fact that bullet spread is heavily effect the games outcome: aggain shotguns can be used by 5 class if i'm right and in a match u may have multiple of them bringing shotguns. The fact of multiple people can use these weapons and constantly roll the dice is just not helping in the favor of game balance. (two scouts fight who wins? it should be the one who is the most skilled and well have better equipment [240hz monitor...] but no this little cheaky bullet spread mechanic can curve your bullets off the enemy and make you reggret ever choosing a shothun) there is a lot more aspects of this patter i could touch but it's already too long.,.

[@Awesomeness-iz3dh]

I remember when I first started playing TF2 and had shit for aim, I hated using any shotguns because they felt so inconsistent and I couldn't tell if I was aiming correctly. Of course, I eventually learned that the reason for it was random bullet spread.

[@bananar1403]

nah ur just bad

[@Awesomeness-iz3dh]

@@bananar1403 I was bad. Like I said, I just got started playing. Random spread made it harder to understand and improve at the game.

[@bananar1403]

@@Awesomeness-iz3dh oh i didnt see the part where you said you were new mb

[@Awesomeness-iz3dh]

@@bananar1403 Yeah. It's been years since I started playing, but way back then shotguns just made no sense to me and I hated them because of the inconsistency. I would've learned several classes way sooner and enjoyed them a lot more without it.

[@minneelyyyy]

100% random bullet spread sucks on the shotgun weapons. However, the revolver, pistol, and SMG are balanced on the fact that they aren't 100% accurate laser beams. That just sounds like something that doesn't fit very well in TF2. They aren't meant to do good damage across the map even if you have perfect aim, because that would be kinda ridiculous. So, I am fine with the current state of those weapons. Unlike random bullet spread in shotguns, most people are comfortable with the idea of a pistol not being 100% accurate and it is kind of an assumption you make about the weapons when you first use them, that's a feature in basically every shooter. They could also make random bullet spread a bit less bad by giving them a sort of weighted randomness. I'm not a professional in random number generation so just bare with me for a second, but what if the bullets had a sort of preference for going towards the center and being much more packed and towards the center? So instead of the bullets having a chance to just all go off to the side it's more likely that they will all just form near the center. I'm pretty sure random bullet spread actually makes the shotgun pellets spread out even more than fixed spread.

[@randomperson7350]

@@JohnDoe-px6nl the revolvers do 20 damage at max falloff, it's already plenty harsh

[@hevnet]

10:54 All the classes (except pyro) who can equip the shotgun have better long range options. Soldiers have rockets, Heavy has the minigun, Engi and Scout have the pistol. *Shotguns and scatterguns are simply not meant for medium-long range.*

[@dez1448]

Exactly bro how tf is no one saying this it makes me so mad that people expect a fucking shotgun to be consistent at any range

[@Tendity]

heavy and soldier's primary doesnt reform well at long ranges

[@dez1448]

@@Tendity natasha and direct shit whatre you on

[@garm2287]

Yet that's not the overall issue with RBS.

[@SupaThePotato]

just today i over extended as a pyro, decided to camp in front of the enemy's spawn and a pyro came around. we almost killed eachother, but he managed to slip back into the spawn and restock while i was at 42 hp. knowing i couldnt escape nor win the 1v1, i pulled out my powerjack and whacked him in hopes of a random crit. what do you know? my mistakes werent punished and i got away with an undeserved kill

[@captainmccuckin2698]

One person complained about this and now the community will complain too until the next thing

[@roastcheese1877]

I've always been curious how this could be with miniguns 4 pellet shots

[@ukyoize]

I think there is still need to be some random bullet spread, but instead of just having flat random disribution of bullents within a circle, shotguns should take fixed bullet spread and apply natural distribution to these.

[@Appletank8]

I think they kinda already do. Zesty did a video where he shot like 100 times on a stationary heavy and recorded the damage numbers, and it was a standard bell curve distribution.

[@Ming1975]

I knew about this random bullet from the basic shotgun and know i sometime can get lucky but it doesn't change the fact the skilled scout player seems to always kick my ass with it. So my problem is sometimes the spread seems get way bigger than it suppose to.

[@LeafMaltieze]

Really should have shown the fact that Random bullet spread actually affects the size of the cone/circle the pellets hit, and thus makes shotguns significantly less accurate. With fixed spread the bullets will always be closer to the center of the crosshair. With random spread the randomness allows the bullets to hit almost twice as far from the center of the crosshair. I think random spread would be much more acceptable if the size of the cone/circle they can land in, was the same size as the fixed spread pattern.

[@sl_50]

hey just wanted to say I love watching your vids, they always make the week go down a bit easier :). I think i agree with pretty much every point here except the response to counter argument 3 for long-distance shots. I feel like shotguns are inherently designed for close quarters combat, and in almost any case, for a class that has the shotgun equipped, they have another weapon that excels at med-to-long range encounters (pistol, mini gun, rocket launcher). For that reason, I still think counterpoint 3 is somewhat viable, but could totally be argued against from another angle.

[@SimoneBellomonte]

I mean you could literally put damage falloff and essentially achieve the same result of random spread except that on average you’ll do the same damage no matter what unlike random spread.

[@shrimpchris6580]

Do none of the children that make this nonsense argument realize that fix spread gets wider at range and cause you to hit less pellets anyway? Or forget damage falloff exists?

[@shyawkward]

As a person who likes the concept of both random crits and bullet spread, I think a random rotation to the fixed spread would be a good compromise. For pistols, I think the spread fine as is, but if the random spread HAD to go, more aggressive damage fall off would do the trick.

[@vadenummela9353]

Dealing with RBS is all about expectations. Instead of expecting a shotgun blast to do the average 40-50 damage, adjust your expectations and play like the shotgun deals 10-15 damage. Instead of knowing youre able to deal with a pyro outside of flamethrower range in 4-5 hits, you can adjust your expectations to being able to "suggest" a pyro on 60hp to not come into flamethrower range with 4-5 hits. If you catch sniper thats afk, instead of walking up to them and shotgun blasting them 10 times, adjust your expectations and shotgun blast them until youre in melee range, and then just use melee.

[@guardians_04]

i personally want it kept on because turning it off would be an indirect buff to scout. scout normally is very strong at close range and deals less reliable chip damage at longer ranges, forcing the scout to get in close and risking dying to deal more damage which was something mentioned in the developer commentary on hydro. if rbs was to be turned off there should definitely be a universal accuracy penalty across all shotguns similar to the backscatter.

[@ZoofyZoof]

Although buckshot in real life does have random bullet spread, what people fail to realize is that shotguns have this part called a "choke" that tightens spread and makes it much more accurate than anyone seems to realize. TF2's shotguns seem to lack chokes which makes their spread unreasonably high.

[@shrimpchris6580]

Yeah the realism argument is always pretty silly, but people have no clue the kind of things that could entail if applied elsewhere too. Half the community would perish instantly if Pyro had a realistic flamethrower lmao

[@reaperslayer7954]

*talks about rockets curving in a random direction* Beggar's Bazooka rocket deviation: "am I a joke to you?"

[@inkoursor2942]

The Pistol, SMG and Revolver all have enough spread to be useful at the range that they need to be and slightly further while not as good at further ranges, which is about the same way all weapons function. They can still deal chip damage, but they're really not supposed to be as heavily relied on, mainly as a back-up weapon for when the situation demands it. Sniper's got their rifle, scout and engi got shotguns and spy's gun is incredibly powerful in the right hands as it is. They're consistent and inconsistent just enough

[@nolader28]

Since removing it would change virtually nothing valve just does not remove spread lol. To be fair there is some fairness in random bullet spread, the same with crits, being that all players are pitted against each other with the same rules. What playing dnd thaught me is that rolling a bunch of dice results in both high rolls and low rolls, but statistically they all have a certain average, which acts like a constant, and two player rolling 3d6 for a thousand times will result in their both averages being 10.5, despite how random dice rolls are

[@paille-boy]

Me meatshoting someone : 12dmg Someone at 6 engie away shooting at me : 80dmg

[@HANKSANDY69420]

10:29 | *That is some looney-tunes sh*t right there, you **_literally_** shot an outline over that guy*

[@TinyDeskEngineer]

I've never had much of a problem with random bullet spread, I'm too busy having trouble with me being incapable of shooting the broadside of a barn at point blank.

[@RaynmanPlays]

The worst problem with random bullet spread is that it gives inconsistent feedback on aim. Did I hit my shot dead-on and was just screwed by luck? Did I miss entirely and luck was just in my favor? I wouldn't mind random bullet spread if the probability of a pellet being placed somewhere decreased with distance, because random bullet spread does benefit new and less-skilled players and thus is good for the health of the game. But the way it's implemented is horrible. Allow me to explain: The normal shotgun has that 9 pellet spread, right? The top right pellet is more likely to end up within an inch of where it would be placed without spread than it is to end up within 1-2 inches, and it's more likely to end up there than within 2-3 inches, etc. It's fairly simple to do. Pick an orientation at random (in dice terms, we'll say it's 1d360, so a random degree in a circle) and then produce several random numbers centered around 0 (in dice terms, say 6d6 - 21). This will produce a bell curve where the most common result is no spread, the majority of results are close to the center, and as you get further out, the probability of a pellet ending up there gets extremely low.

[@duskdragmatic8198]

Still thinking that this game isn't csgo to have fixed spread, and just like you said, it can be mostly ignored, 'cause you're supposed to use shotguns in short range mostly, and then, mid range like a second priority y'know? Aslo people who argue it can make the game more realistic, but if we are fair, if we want a REALISTIC shotgun in tf2, you just die to just chip damage

[@Ramonatho]

As someone who grew up with Call of Duty and actual shotguns I just kinda figure random spread is part of the choice of using a shotgun. In video games I'm not against the idea of a shotgun being a gambler's weapon outside of point blank range.

[@KaiserSnope]

UnusualFarter

[@zenithzv]

w comment

[@KaiserSnope]

@@zenithzv is the smelliest tf2 youtuber

[@danielszilagyi9112]

About the realism part, I don't really think that THAT stands well either. I have shot two types of shotguns before: 1. A hunting shotgun: mainly used for hunting small feathered animals such as wild ducks and phesants, or hares. The reason is why shotguns are used for such is because bullets shot out of rifles travel too far away, potentially wounding, or even killing innocent people accidently. And flying targets would be really hard to hit with single bullets. But even then, these shotguns are used in 50 meters to 100 meters, and they can stay quite accurate. Also, they remain dangerous within 350 meters, which is quite a lot. These shotguns are also usually 12 gauge, and usually double barreled. 2. Tactical shotgun: a stirdy pump action tactical shotgun, which is used for blowing off locks, door knobs, and many more, but they aren't really made for human targets. While it can very much kill a person, it's affective range is lacking compared to a hunting shotgun. I shot at targets with it in a 20 meter radious, or 15, and many of the targets wouldn't tip off, even despite being shot right on the chest, or on the head. Keep in mind, that this was a 350 gauge shotgun if I remember correctly, which means that it has a lot of very small pellets, so when it hit the target, it couldn't always transfer enough energy into it to tip it over. In conclusion, the merceneries seem to use like, around 16 gauge shotguns which are somehow as accurate as a tactical shotgun made to blow off door knobs and such, which is one of the reasons that they don't make sense, but shotguns like these also got a pretty good kick, so using these without a stock, or without a bead/crosshair is beyond strange. And also, if the barrel is well manifactured, then they should still be really accurate in 100 meters or less. So saying that random bullet spread is realalistic is still just not true, as these shotguns despite looking like a 16 gauge shotguns (or more) act like a 350 gauge shotgun. And most of those pellets would still connect in 20 meters. So the tf2 shotgun would act way more realisticly if the pellets actually had a way more thighter spread. Even in 50 meters. Which would make the tf2 shotguns way more overpowered for people with a good aim, and much more punishing for players with a bad aim. Which would make it unfun for new players to face off against, and damn right broken in the hands of a slightly good player. So random bullet spread is not realistic, but actually making it realistic would just make it way more notacable, and a way bigger problem then random bullet spread. I hope I debunked it well enough, just delete random bullet spread, problem solved.

[@Bread-kun]

The issue is it becomes a fairly decent buff for scout who's already a very strong class. It does buff engineer too but it wouldn't really be felt as much as a scout running around with crit a cola. The scout being unreliable mid range damage unless using the shortstop kinda fits with his theme as a class and is a balancing point of high risk high reward where you can get close enough where random spread really doesn't matter and guarantee those meaty hits. It's something that helps keep the game focused a bit more focused on close range encounters which is something the game strives to do. It's why every class isn't all that great at mid or long range save for the sniper and demo, and I suppose heavy for some mid range I guess. Also its a shotgun.

[@misterdanny8644]

No it doesn't serve Scouts balance. It just randomizes something that has already been dealt with by 2 other very good mechanics. Spread and Falloff. All it does is sometimes fuck me over and sometimes fuck over my target for absolutely no reason. If you want to pull the Realism card then let me introduce you to rocket jumping.

[@theweaponstealr5917]

About the random bullet spread, I can actually provide a counterpoint to the pistol situation with older Typical Colors 2. There was a weapon called the Conventional that had a slower fire rate in turn for no fall off or bullet spread. It was overpowered even for a mediocre player like me. This single pistol turned scout into a threat at ALL ranges, not just point-blank to close-medium, and was very easy to do heavy damage or kill someone approaching or running away from a fight.

[@molly_dreemurr]

Counter-counterpoint the biggest factor here was most likely the no fall off I got no clue how that weapon worked, but, assuming it did something like 20 damage, just 7 hits would remove any light class, add damage fall off, and suddenly, each shot does something like 2 damage, and it's gonna take a LOT more bullets again, no clue how the weapon worked, and I pulled those numbers out of the ether, but, point still stands that no fall off makes ANYTHING remotely accurate terrifying

[@SimoneBellomonte]

The No fall-off upside basically makes it a straight upgrade, otherwise it would be the same (on average).

[@SimoneBellomonte]

@@molly_dreemurr Damn u ninjed me, so yeah all random spread does is just partially throw skill out of the window and replace it with RNG, pointless mechanic.

[@nonfatracer1904]

"you see, random bullet spread takes consistency and fucking burns it" ... *subscribes*

[@sourcw8768]

Why did you blur out zesty’s thumbnail and name?

[@Appletank8]

I think the best change for pistols/revolvers is to give them the same spread mechanic as the ambassador, with maybe tweaks on how fast. AKA, instead of full inaccurate -> perfect accuracy after 1.25 sec, have them gradually become more accurate if you space out your shots. So waiting 1 sec is more accurate than 0.5 sec, 1.2 sec is even more accurate, and full 1.25 sec is down the line. Honestly my only complaint with fixed weapon spread is I think it being a square is dumb, it should be a circle.

[@blacklight683]

a peace of my soul dies everytime i see someone survives at (anyless than 25hp) cuz i know i could have gotten that kill if i was just lucky :

[@double0f755]

why did you blur Zesty?

[@kalimatronix]

14:03 - Tells how he would be fine with removal of random bullet spread on automatic and semiautomatic weapons. Heavy with an ability to kill a Sniper in less than 3 seconds: Are you sure about that?

[@johncreche671]

I don't mind random bullet spread, but it definitely makes you think otherwise when you have less than ideal internet connections.

[@EquinoxWasTaken]

imagine you have a shotgun an enemy is right there you shoot they have 1 hp left and kill you because funni shotgun spread that's quite dumb

[@Vladimir_4757]

That’s the problem with shotguns in almost all video games figuring out their spread. Real life shotguns are a lot more effective at close range but that can be up to 100 feet as spread isn’t perfect. You can have a fixed spread using chokes to tighten the pattern and extend range but outside of that it is interesting on how video games try (and fail) at replicating shotguns

[@greentieguy1676]

the thing about random bullet spread is that the game was (at least partly) built around it. especially scout; since it keeps him in check. and speaking of scouts, without random bullet spread they are are an absolute pain for any class to deal with, even soldier since they are now consistently putting out a higher average damage. and even then you rarely notice when you do more or less damage with a shotgun, and when you are unfairly killed or a kill slips through your grasp 9 times out of 10 its because of other random tf2 bullshit (crits, ping, source jank, shitreg, etc.)

[@sliceronsteam]

Back in the Meat Your Match competitive update days when my aim was good shotgun pyro was surprisingly strong. But scouts with good aim become a terror at medium range. I'm not sure casual can handle it.

[@pipichi8441]

7:49 did you know that at some point (idk if its still in the game) demoman pipes have random spread. Im not talking the tumble. True spread. Its hard to find evidence since its not well known (its not on the wiki) but certain 6s mods have it disabled and i know b4nny or habib has talked about this before.

[@tovarisch3490]

I got a gambling ad before this video

[@Jauntyweb]

Short answer: I disagree with your argument, and believe that Shotgun Bloom is important to TF2's balance. Long Answer: With what we know about Fixed Shotgun Bloom in TF2, it actually gives you a tighter spread, effectively increasing your range with shotguns, which I think is something that isn't as good as people think. Pyro and Heavy aren't nearly as affected by this as they have much better secondaries (Flare guns and Lunchbox items respectively) Soldier using a shotgun forces him to play more grounded and around his team, and it's mainly used in cases where your opponent is close to a point where rockets will do harm to you, and with it being best at close range, is where he'd use it. Engineer with a shotgun, unless you are playing with Minis, plays mostly around his buildings and maintaining them, using his shotgun to deal with spies or with oncoming pushes. Scout, however, would be made far more of a nuisance than he is atm. Giving scout the ability to deal more consistent damage at mid range is a poor balancing idea, since he is one of the most pesky classes to deal with due to his on-demand maneuverability, allowing him to do decent damage at a range where he's mostly safe is a very bad idea. It would make pyro v scout incredibly one sided as scouts just need to stay out of flame thrower range and take pyro down easily. As a pyro main, i'd think you wouldn't want that lol. Shotgun Bloom, for scout mostly, is important because it keeps him in check. He should be forced to get as close as possible to deal the most damage as possible, instead of being able to do 50 damage shots from a distance where shotguns really shouldn't be the most effective. Shotguns are meant to be weapons where you want to be as close to your opponents as possible, because they're notorious for their wide spread of pellets. They're not mean to be precise. If they were, they wouldn't have bloom to begin with. Also, removing random bullet spread on pistols, smgs, and revolvers is an incredibly stupid idea, to put it bluntly. Scatterguns being more accurate with bloom off is bad enough, but with a pistol that's more accurate? Scout just doesn't have to get close to deal with anybody, he's be borderline OP. Also consider the Diamonback and being 2 shot across the map in under a second, meanwhile the ambassador was nerfed for that same reason. Point is: TF2 is a game where most fights are taken at close to mid range, and making it so that fighting distance is stretched even further would make the game worse balance wise. Random Bullet Spread is important to the balance of TF2, and I believe it should stay. Valve honestly would've removed it from casual back in MyM if they thought it was an issue.

[@JimmY_-ml4xc]

This is so exaggerated. You wouldn't see a sudden rise of scouts peppering people for consistent 6 dmg chip from long range just because random bullet spread go turned off. Even with random spread off the pistol is still much more effective at longer distances than the scattergun, so scouts effective range would not change significantly. The only exception would maybe be with the shortstop, but that weapons whole gimmick is that it is more effective at longer ranges, and in its current state in casual its pretty meh, so buffing it really shouldn't matter. You can say things like "it would make pyro vs scout more one sided", but this would only hold true if you ignore the fact that the pyro can also equip the shotgun and have more consistent ranged dmg too? And if you want to act like pyro equipping shotgun is somehow a huge detriment to his effectiveness (its not) then you also still have to ignore the fact that even with random bullet spread off its not going to suddenly make it so pyro can enter flamethrower range against a competent scout. Any good scout will still just hold s and shoot the pyro regardless of bulletspread being off or on, it might take 1 or 2 more scattergun shots (assuming the scout just doesnt use the pistol anyways), but the pyro is still most likely going to lose regardless. Saying it will suddenly make the matchup "incredibly one-sided" like its not already is very disingenuous. Shotgun bloom doesn't really keep scout in check any more than any of the other random shit in casual. Its not like engineer/spam/chokepoints are going to suddenly stop existing in casual because his bloom is slightly more consistent on his scattergun. Scouts not going to be suddenly dominating every match and making it unplayable because he can deal a consistent 25 dmg at midrange instead of a dice rolled 10-30 dmg lmao. Its not like scouts are top scoring and dominating on every uncletopia match because his damage is slightly more consistent. In fact scout is still probably the least common class to see on the top of the scoreboard in those servers, because the greater presence of competent players in a 12v12 environment surprisingly enough, does not favor the short-ranged, single-target, glass-cannon class. Also why even mention how shotguns are "supposed" to work? You realize this only goes against your argument. Shotguns irl are still lethal from long distances, a shotgun pellet hitting you from 50 meters away would probably still be lethal rather than doing 6 dmg. Your arguments are really poor. It feels like you are just grasping at any reason possible, no matter how flimsy or insignificant, to keep random bulletspread (probably because zestyjesus said its good and you blindly follow whatever he says).

[@garm2287]

I lost so many braincells reading this thank you

[@kubaGR8]

Instead of removing bullet spread for pistols altogether, what we could do is give them CS:GO-style fixed spray patterns. So it's not random, but they're also not laser-accurate either.

[@stuglife5514]

I have a few interesting thoughts on the topic. I don’t mind the random pellet spread, but I think the issue is the spreads being too wide and often too lopsided to the left or the right. The idea should be that most of the pellets are landing center mass. For example say, make a circle that’s a 1sq foot area. A shotgun with 10 pellets should, say hit 8 pellets in that area at medium shotgun range with the extra two as outliers that just edge in the boarder of the area. Valve making half your pellets veer 3 feet off to the left is frankly insulting to peoples ability to aim. Valve has perfectly good spread mechanics in their other source fps games with shotguns that feature multiplayer, like CS:GO and Left for dead. I think TF2 should use pellet spread closer to those two games rather than this wonky system. In CS:GO, I won’t know the exact pattern of pellets, but they can be expected to land in a certain diameter at certain ranges with a generalized shape, so I know, roughly how much damage I’m going to do with a shot. Same with L4D2, playing Vs I know when to pop out to shotgun that Hunter on a roof or not depending on how far away they are. Or if I know he’s right around the corner, I know I can reliable walk around that corner and smack him into next Sunday. But in TF2, using shotguns is such a crapshoot.

[@presentfactory]

Ironically I think random bullet spread may end up being a more accurate representation of accuracy in the long term. It is inconsistent from shot to shot which is annoying but assuming the points are uniformly distributed they will average out over hours of gameplay to roughly the area of characters overlapping the firing cone of the shotgun at the time of firing. On the other hand a fixed pattern is essentially a worse sampling pattern since the points where the pellets are shot never change and will as such probably converge to the true accuracy of your shots at a slower rate. This sort of thing can be shown with some sort of monte carlo statistical analysis, though it is just a question of if totally random spread will have less variance or not than a jittered uniform grid. Of course thinking of it like that is way overkill and probably irrelevant, but it is interesting to consider. In the end just what feels best matters more which is why something more consistent shot to shot might be better regardless of which is going to more accurately represent your accuracy in theory.

[@SimoneBellomonte]

Even if on average the damage and accuracy were the same, I’ll take consistency, that way I only have myself to blame for bad aim, it’s an FPS, you should be rewarded for landing your shots, and viceversa, random spread just partially takes some of your skill and throws it out the window lol, trivializing the point of FPS games in the first place.

[@LegitamateToaster]

I love random bullet spread, it keeps the game from being the same every time i run a different gun. I think having the panic attack use fixed it cool tho, you can use it to get close and hit all your pellets

[@VVen0m]

Do people really not know about random bullet spread? The first thing I did when I realized I can't land a high-damage shot with a shotgun was shoot a couple times at a wall, look at the bullet holes, and realize that the pattern is random aside from one bullet hole which is always in the middle, like I _genuinely_ thought it was very common knowledge because it's always there, in front of your face, thought it would be hard _not_ to notice because of that. I'm kinda confused... Like it's not that I'm denying that people don't know about it, because everyone with half a brain cell and a working eye can see the poll near the beginning of the video and see that about half the player base didn't know about it until they were told, it's also not that I'm trying to say I'm "superior" in any way - it's literally straight-up that I'm baffled people don't know about random bullet spread, it's a very weird thing to not know about tf2 for me...

[@Blastrock64]

I do agree with your points. I think this video is a great improvment from your previews rbs video because it is much more researched and makes valid points.

[@IInferno]

Your editing is masterful as always, if I may request, Mr SharkWhich, could you link your previous RBS video in the description so I can see the comparison?

[@UnusualSandwich]

If the video wasn't complete garbage sure, but I'd rather just keep that video a memory tbh

[@IInferno]

@@UnusualSandwich prefectly understandable, this one was a banger so do not fret, hope you're well

[@SearNRivers]

Shotgun spread IRL is pretty tight to be real, so the people who cry that about the game in favor of random spread don't really know what they're talking about. As someone who shoots our winchester 12 gauge regularly, I can say buckshot is pretty accurate in reality out to 70 to 100 meters. Even people I've known who were relatively new to shooting can usually hit targets reliably at 30 to 50 meters.

[@GunSpyEnthusiast]

"imagine if the rocket launcher curved in a random directon" you mean the beggers bazoka?

[@ILC_YTP]

While I don't think random bullet spread benefits the game and that it's better left off, I don't think the developers were stupid for incorporating it in TF2. Shoot a shotgun in any other video game, and nearly all of them will have random spread, even CS:GO when you shoot the first shell. I'm sure the devs were just doing what was the norm and not really thinking how it could impact the game or try to spin it in a way that "it's good for less skilled players." If you wanna talk about a truly unnecessary mechanic that didn't have any reason to be in the game, look no further to random damage spread. Before Gun Metal, any damage you dealt could deal between an extra 15% more damage to 15% less damage. It's the reason the lock n load was overpowered back then, not because it did too much damage, but because it had a ~30% chance to one hit kill any class thanks to random damage spread. The only reason I can think as to why this was included in the game was because someone was really stuck in "old school" mode for the game design, and incorporated what games like Doom did where weapons also deal random damage.