Victor Safe Restoration 11: Machining the Dial Back Plate

[@silveradoman298]

Keith, I can appreciate that you want to make this dial by casting it. I applaud you for sticking with the foundry work instead of biting the bullet and using another method. You're a true craftsman Keith.

[@razorworks9942]

Your humility is truly commendable Keith! If I learn nothing else from this video, it would be that. I've enjoyed the majority of your videos, and this one is right up there for me! Thank you! Razor!

[@Sqtgdog]

I cannot appreciate enough how you address the cost of materials when speaking about buying stock to turn pieces on the lathe instead of casting your own. Material cost seems to be a commonly ignored topic on many machining videos, and beyond the price of the machine itself, seems to be the largest investment for doing these projects. Keep up the great work!

[@scottwilcoxson2439]

I love watching how you just work through it. I'm watching all your old videos first. I found you when you did the job for Hand Tool Rescue. I'll binge my way up to the new videos. Very interesting.

[@eviltwinx]

Hi Keith! I just want to let you know how much your videos inspire a budding hobby machinist such as myself. The videos are well edited and the way you present yourself in such a friendly matter makes a complete newb comfortable and confident that I can start making chips on my own very soon.

[@danielgriffin3878]

Thanks for responding to the comments and questions that were made in the proceeding videos. While the steps and methods of completing a project are important, insight into the "why or why not " are most helpful. Looking forward to the next video.

[@johnsf316]

Keith, All of your videos were great. We all make some mistakes, the first time. I myself haven't been on a metal lathe since high school. 1963, makes we want a metal lathe. I do wood now. Good luck!!!

[@johnsf316]

***** Amen! I like the idea of not having my hands so close to the work with a metal lathe. Maybe some day.

[@KnolltopFarms]

Wow, the prices of Brass really are out of this world, and I now know why I haven't been practicing with that material, LOL! Glad to see you refining your skill-set and I hope to learn more from you when you re-cast the dials as I always do from your videos. Thanks Again and Aloha...Chuck

[@WilliamHuber3]

Dang, why are these so interesting?! I've watched a solid 2 hours of your videos today. You are extremely knowledgable, sir. Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge with the KZbin community.

[@johnsf316]

Keith, OK!!!! you've got me hooked on metal.

[@Spott07]

Although not a perfect solution to the measuring problem, something that would help, and perhaps get you "close enough" is a set of Starrett #425 calipers (the 3" size). My grandfather is a professional machinist and has carried his daily in a pocket for decades, and he gives a set to his children and grandchildren who show mechanical inclination. They've been discontinued by Starrett, but you can find them on eBay in good condition for around $20-30 or so, if you watch long enough. They're endlessly useful for a guy like you; they measure inside and outside in 1/64" increments, and are handy for measuring screws, bolt heads, bar stock, sheet and plate, roll pins, wire diameter, determining what size drill to use for a clearance hole, thicknessing lumber, etc, and they even function as an exceptional pair of tweezers in a pinch. Since they're small enough to carry in a pocket they're always right at hand when you need them; if you're in the metal room or the scrap pile, or even underneath the truck (machine, locomotive) wondering what size wrench to ask your helper to hand you. I saw that you already ordered a mic for this measurement, but the 425's are handy enough that you might want to start carrying them anyways.

[@NSTRAPPERHUNTER]

Looking good so far, standing by for more.

[@JackHoying]

I'm Interesting in seeing the resolution of your casting problems. We were in Leadville, Colorado last week and I saw an old safe in a coffee shop, which reminded me of your project. I couldn't get a photo of it, but the building was originally a mining company, so I'm sure that it was at least 100 years old.

[@swarfrat311]

Keith, Enjoyed your video as always! It's too bad about the inclusions in the dial. But, like you said, practice makes perfect. It can be really frustrating when you don't have all the tools for the job. Fortunately, in my career as a service tech, I always had the tools I needed, even special tools made by the manufacturer of the machine. That's what's nice about having a machine shop. If you need something, you can make it! Thanks again for an interesting video. Have a good one! Dave

[@williamhayden7711]

Good on ya Keith for wanting to do it right. I really want to see you pour those castings and succeed! Even if it takes a few times! You'll work it out and we'll all learn something along the way. Two thumbs way up!

[@binks166]

Thanks for the video Keith! I am looking forward to your new brass pouring/casting process. I am learning with you, Harvey

[@tuckertomlinson4216]

Hi Kieth, thanks for another enjoyable video. I noticed at around 7:30 that it looks like there is a ring left in the metal at the diameter of the stub you included for chucking. Looks like maybe the metal froze around the edge of the stub before it could flow cleanly out across that face. I know you had mentioned that you didn't think the pour was quite hot enough, but I was surprised that you can see it in the casting.

[@daki222000]

could use an inside thread cutting boring bar for deburring the back. Keith Fenner measured the thikness by slipping in (and pushing) a flat piece of stock behind the part, covering the hole and depth miking it. thanks for the video again, Keith. enjoy a lot.

[@nathanmasi3766]

Great video! I almost have the courage to try my hand at casting now. Thanks for the work you put in for us.

[@tombellus8986]

Nice video Keith, enjoyed

[@StreuB1]

Awesome Keith and great seeing you keeping at it and developing your casting skill set. Brazing and machining from solid might be easier but like you said, you're not perfecting your skill set at that point and if you're not making mistakes and perfecting, you're not learning.

[@charlesmarlin6632]

Well Done!! It will be fun to find out the brass pour solutions!! :-) Thanks for Making the Video!

[@nickglumack8588]

Depending on how true the face of your 4 jaw is to your lathe. Use a set of parallels behind your part just to locate it. Make sure the part is sitting flat on both and you could use you machine readout and a dial indicator to check the depth. A groove/hub mic works great too! Make sure it's calibrated for both internal grooves and external thicknesses. I had to lap .001 off my mitutoyo. Your drill was walking pretty bad!! Can't wait to see more of your videos!!!

[@randallparker8477]

No questions from this peanut gallery today. LOL Just keep on burnin and turnin!

[@Opinionator52]

You can reach inside the hole with a small boring bar angled back toward you and do the needed deburring... Then a short parallel (slipped in behind the part), and a depth mic would measure that 1/4" thickness you seek (after facing the front edge)... Looking forward to your solution and the cost to achieve it... This is a great learning adventure! Thank you Keith! :o] O,,,

[@genefultz5267]

I used a boring bar to deburr a back side of a hole worked good ,coming a long real good for practise piece !

[@raincoast2396]

Most happy to see you taking the "high" road, versus the Russian quality control expert, Ivan Goodeenuf! lol Seriously though, your approach is commendable in that learning is a doing process. Looking forward to it Keith. Cheers.

[@shawnmrfixitlee6478]

Great work Keith ! I hope the next pour works better man .. Thumbs up !

[@notsure6109]

as always, great videos. I always lean something, you seem to know it all:) thx keep them coming!

[@mikeadrover5173]

‘Keith’ a outstanding video! I look forward for more! As always, thanks’ for taking the time to make this video! And I support this site. ~M~

[@k5at]

one easy way to measure the thickness is put a parallel on the back side and use your calipers to measure the depth from the front face to the caliper. Enjoyed the video.

[@jusb1066]

looking forward to seeing casting 2.0

[@eformance]

Hi Keith, you could make those parts out of much smaller rounds of Brass by using a pot chuck. The Hardinge lathe has a bunch of pot chuck accessories which make this kind of work very economical. But I agree, if you can get the degas right, good way to go.

[@eformance]

***** Hi Keith, sorry, it's called a "step chuck" in official lingo. www.shophardinge.com/categories.aspx?catid=34

[@sthenzel]

If you plan to recast in the same shape, you can do the machining without any fixtures, I think. Chuck it as centered as possible on the front stem, turn the rear stem round and the rear face flat. Turn it around, chuck it on the machined rear stem and finish the complete face (with the benefit of being able to measure the bottom thickness). The finished front has an inside shoulder, this should be sufficient to chuck from the inside to cut off the rear stem and to finally drill and bore the center hole, maybe with a little true up on the rear face. Something like that might even work on the dial handle part.

[@sparkyprojects]

You're right about wanting to make this properly, it's about the journey, learning the skills, and getting the experience, Would the boring bar with a different bit work for deburring ? was thinking if you could get something flat behind the dial plate you could then measure depth

[@one4stevo]

Neat job Keith. i was thinking instead of making up a fixture to turn up the outer edge could you use double sided tape and the live center to hold it in place. I remember watching Tom use that method, thought it was pretty cool.

[@larrysperling8801]

keith i always look forward to your videos. couldn't you use a boring bar ground for internal threading to debur the backside of the hole? i like davids idea of using a rod and two nut to measure the thickness. my old starrett depth gage has a hook on one side of the rule that would probably work as well.so many was to skin a cat.

[@jburr36]

one method of pouring metal into molds is to use some form of channel to allow the metal to flow into the fill hole event.y. For brass and aluminum I may cut a 2" steel pipe in half and drill a 1 " hole in the end that sits on the fill hole. have the pipe elevated to about 30 degrees or so and then poor the metal into the pipe and let the metal flow down the pipe and into the fill hole through the 1" hole. I think it would eliminate some of the turbulence caused by directly pouring the metal straight into the hole at 90 degrees. Also the use of risers for venting instead of poking holes with a wire for venting. My idea is to allow the metal to flow slower and more evenly into the fill hole with a lot less turbulence. The metal is burning the oil (smoking it) which doesn't have a good place to flow out of the mold without a good riser. Just my thoughts.

[@bcbloc02]

I assume the outer part you didn't machine is a radius shape. Will you be making a form tool to cut that? I really enjoy the foundry videos and learning what works and what doesn't.

[@AmateurRedneckWorkshop]

I wonder if anyone is taking bets on that part having inclusions on the outer ring? It has definitely got my curiosity stirred up. I will be watching to see what "turns out" next. Thanks for sharing.

[@PatFarrellKTM]

cool learning effort. Quick question: while you had the two stub axles, why didn't you complete the outer section (slanted part of the dial)? Seems like that would be a near trivial time to finish machine that portion.

[@OnlyTheEd]

I agree with "Nathan Butler", pour your own blank out of molten brass. Good luck in the future, or in this case the past! ^_^

[@Newmachinist]

Hi Keith and thanks for the excellent videos - much appreciated. Just curious from your experience would lost wax casting using wax and plaster of paris be a better way to go? Thanks again Rod

[@pierresgarage2687]

Hi Keith, You say you have a big stockpile of scrap brass, maybe if nothings turns good on the castings, you can mold a big 5 inches bar stock, there might less chances for inclusions. In any case, I prefer to re-visit the proper molding methods with clean parts as a result, to be continued... I'm working on a electric ceramic oven to get it to melt aluminum and brass... More a spring project though. Promises to be instructive. Thanks, Pierre

[@wadehicks9270]

Doing good there Sir.

[@PhilsProjects]

Hi Keith. Thanks for the video. I was thinking about your mesuring issue and i was wondering if you could use some sort of block or piece thicker than the depth of the recess, zero your callipers on it, insert the block into the recess and then use the callipers to measure the bottom thickness from the outside. I'm kinda new to machining and i'm just trying to find practical solutions to problems I will surly encounter along the way. Cheers

[@PhilsProjects]

***** ok admit it it was the excuse you needed to get a hub micrometer... :)

[@DavidKirtley]

Just do an indirect measurement with a fine threaded screw and a pair of nuts to get the thickness. Hook the head through on the back side and run the nuts down on the face. Pull it off and measure the gap. You could get fancy and turn the screw and nuts for a better bearing surface.

[@OldIronShops]

Keith do you have c.w. Amens books there a few all old methods but excellent info

[@johngermain3535]

I use a depth mic with a ground down shank with a full size foot that is .024 thick to use as a hook mic.

[@johngermain3535]

Any reason for a tool purchase is a good one.

[@davidgrimble3649]

i thought you would have turned the back face and back work holding stem and turned it around and finished the front.then removed the back stem and bore the hole last.you could have checked the thickness with a mic and gage block.thanks for another great video.

[@AdrianHiggins83]

Nice work

[@TravelinPilsburys]

Hey Keith, I'm really enjoying your videos. I never get tired of watching hunks of hard metal getting shaped and molded like it was play-doh. Stupid question, can you save the brass shavings and re-melt them? I hate the thoughts of all that metal going to waste. I guess you'd have to clean the workspace beforehand and then sweep up the shavings. It may be too labor-intensive. Anyway, I'm enjoying watching and learning. Peace!

[@VintageMachinery]

You can save the shavings and re-use it as long as you are very careful to keep it very clean.

[@Dusty-Builds]

If you could find another set of jaws for the 4 jaw you used here, could you machine down the outer third so it wouldn't get in you way? Just level it off with the center section.

[@fnordhorn]

Hope you save all your Brass chips for remelting. For that matter Alm. and Bronze also. Just some 5 Gal. bucket, Also any friends do reloading? They all way have some damage brass just make shore that the primers are out of the damage brass. I have done big pours of brass in to things like #10 can or other cans (cans good for one pour as you damage the can getting it out) that been packed in sand to get some round stock. Need round stock pour in to Cast Iron pipe and you can heat it also (Cast Iron) Square stock, Use a steel U channel with end caps then mill to size needed REMEMBER 1: Heat up U channel or Pipe before pouring, Help keep the air bubbles out and spladder. REMEMBER 2: Brass from someone that reloads, NO bullets NO Primers on the cases, Most people that reload toss there damage brass or save to to send to a scrapper (If they will take it as most scrap yards fear live rounds.)

[@AnthonyFDeLeo]

Keith, silly question, when you initially had it chucked up on the rear spout, why didn't you turn the face, the rounded part that will be visible? Just starting out, want to learn how to think through these types of projects. Thanks Tony

[@andymandyandsheba4571]

excellent video

[@outsidescrewball]

Enjoyed....!!

[@Chris-Fennimore]

Hey Keith, it appeared that the drill bit had a slight wobble while drilling out the center hole. Did that offset the center hole any? Too bad about the inclusions, with what you learned I am sure you will get the next pour inclusion-free!

[@DSCKy]

I saw it move too and figure it was because it was making a bit of an interrupted cut on those humps?

[@bubster1981]

WoW a piece that size , really that much? I gasp everytime i see Tom chuck up a slug lol

[@cougarhunter33]

I priced that slug of brass last week after watching the last video - painful. . Then I had a thought - I have never seen brass electroplating before....

[@marceltimmers1290]

Hi mate. Firstly, I am new to all this so I know noting. I would propose, why not cast a full block yourself surely, a block cast to the open air should avoid problems with gasses building up inside? Stand aside Ghandi, you must be the nicest man I know. Making that part for one of your tubers. I wish I could meet you and Adam. Friendly regards, Marcel.

[@lwilton]

You could clean the back side without removing it from the chuck with a 3-corner scraper or one of those little hook deburring tools; I thought I saw you use one of those in a previous video. Or a small boring bar that will fit in the hole and has a V-point as someone else mentioned. You could have measured it with the depth mic and some math. Measure from the ring height to the floor height, then from the ring height to a parallel (or 6" scale) held across the back of the hole. Subtract the first from the second measurement. But a thickness mic would have been easier and is another fun tool to buy! ;-)

[@VintageMachinery]

l wilton I played around with my depth mic and it was not long enough to span across properly. Also, I found it difficult to get an something behind the piece in a way to get an accurate measurement - it was close but not right on.

[@spongerich]

Nice work Keith - It's a darn shame that you ended up needing to buy some new tools to complete the job. I HATE when that happens ;-)

[@Max_Marz]

I just realized our safe at work has the same exact dial and backplate and it is original. Would you like any info or pictures from/of it?

[@Max_Marz]

***** Good luck! Cant wait to see and compare the results! I've never seen anyone else do restoration work with the passion you have. Nothing is a challenge to you. I love it.

[@chakathewolf]

Given the price of brass, do you collect the swarf and re-melt it, or would that be false economy?

[@rda42]

I am wondering why all the machining on the lathe and milling machine is done dry?

[@rgdegregori8744]

Kieth, take it off the lathe and debur the back of the bore. Put it on a serf ace plate and use a depth mic or the shaft of a caliper. Think you said it needed to be about 1/4", not critical. Randy

[@Lawnmowerman02346]

You had to drill the center anyway why not use a large drill or end mill instead of all that facing ? Was it a holding problem ? If you did your rough turning on a mandrel it may help you get your measurements better by moving away from the chuck . I don't know what to do about your castings I just started melting a little bronze to make small bushings for model engines .

[@mack255]

I have never cast anything Well I did some lead . What causes the hole's ?

[@rjlundeen]

Along with the venting, the mould has to be up to temp and before the pour, remove the dross.

[@pauls5745]

I had a novel idea, if casting the patterns is problematic, melt up a lot of brass and cast your own bar stock so material uniformity won't be in question. solid shapes pour well and defects only show up at edges and intersections

[@RWCSNZ]

Could you use that boring bar to de burr the back of the hole?

[@trumpy81]

Why not use a dial indicator to measure the thickness. Slide a parallel behind the brass dial then plunge a DI in so that it registers on the parallel, note the reading then pull the DI shaft out of the way and move the carriage over and release the DI so that it contacts the outer face of the brass dial. You should be able to get a fairly accurate reading of the thickness from the DI.

[@trumpy81]

lol ... I fully understand, you can never have enough tools ;)

[@andymandyandsheba4571]

keith apparently borax is use as a flux when pouring brass hope this helps

[@andymandyandsheba4571]

i have heard stirring the crucible with a piece of wood as well

[@stuarthardy4626]

Use a stick from a willow tree ,keep the bark on its the salasilic acid the active ingredient in aspirin . To stir the melt works with Ali as well Stuart

[@11LowDown11]

try using a stubby .250 HSS tool blanc on a boring bar

[@ziggassedup]

Stick to your guns Keith....I think the process makes it all the more authentic...

[@rjlundeen]

Look at bullet molds, many vents.

[@LightAndSportyGuy]

Typical machinist. Half an hour on a lathe rather than 5 minutes with a hack saw to cut off the shaft you used for the initial turning. ;-) Keep up the good work - I really enjoy your videos.

[@sthenzel]

How about casting a much simpler shape and do more machining on it? The less complicated the casting, the lesser the danger of sand coming loose or voids appearing through shrinkage?.

[@TipSilver]

Hi Keith. Thanks for the video, enjoyed your videos as always but sometime i think you talk a lot.... Probably because I look forward the final cut :)

[@timaverill68]

Keith you can buy a groove checker from MSC that will convert a depth mic into a collar mic for about 80 dollars. Instead buying a specialized collar/groove mic. www.mscdirect.com/product/details/02198075?src=pla&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test&CS_003=7867724&CS_010=02198075

[@vajake1]

Maybe you can borrow Adam at Abom79 Noga deburing kit!

[@vajake1]

Yes sir! Adam Booth seemed to be quite taken with the set that he got! I am looking forward to seeing how you are going to reach through that hole and measure the thickness of the brass without taking the work out of the chuck!

[@nathanbutler8240]

Couldnt you melt down all your scrap brass and pour it into a cylinder then turn that down to the shape you want

[@andymandyandsheba4571]

dam second again keith lol

[@andymandyandsheba4571]

i blame it on me been out of sort keith still got a chest infection

[@sandrammer]

Howdy, Keith. Pick a weekend and the wife and I will come on down to do some ramming and pouring. Do you already know how to make a billet? I've made hundreds and they are fairly easy to pour and seeing as how you make your own patterns making a billet pattern, a horn gate and one or two cheeks for the flask should be easy for you. You have my email address, just give me a date and where to go and we'll see you there.

[@sandrammer]

Oh, yeah, was meaning to ask....do you have a pyrometer or do you judge your heat by eye?

[@sandrammer]

***** If it is your intention to pour iron from the new furnace, I advise you to invest in a proper crucible made of silicon carbide. Absolutely NOT clay graphite as the carbon in the crucible will be readily absorbed by the melt and be ruined. You can use a silicon carbide crucible to melt and pour ferrous and non ferrous metals but the less expensive clay graphite can be used for non ferrous metals only. Once you get the crucible, the furnace can be built around it for maximum effectiveness. I know a source for foundry supplies but will have to look it up. will post it soon.

[@sandrammer]

sandrammer budgetcastingsupply.com is the site. Advise you to get the bilge shape as you can make a stronger pouring rig and the bilge shape will lend itself to sitting in the rig with more stability. You will have to make the decision on what capacity of molten metal you will be needing to order the correct size. The subject of Pyrometers, obviously the human eye can't judge accurately how hot molten metal is just that it's hot and it's in a liquid form. You will need to pour your projects at the materials' proper pouring temperature and for that you will require an immersion or optical pyrometer.

[@sandrammer]

***** How much metal will your crucible hold? suitable for one person pouring?

[@pbooth001]

It’s the journey not the destination.

[@pbooth001]

True of most all things in life.

[@sterlingeblair]

wow sometimes it suprises me how ignorant I am I kinda thought brass and bronze were the same thing

[@jk30jr]

Why not pour a billet then machine it

[@MrUbiquitousTech]

An excuse to buy more tools, that's a Win!

[@Godshole]

I have seen people use a de-gassing agent just before pouring aluminium. Would there be a benefit from such a product for brass. This came up after a quick search. www.amcolmetalcasting.com/Solutions/Metal_Fluxing_Agents The product Magiflux-CU704 looks promising offering de-gassing and fluxing. Where you might buy it by the thimble full however is a different matter :)