Was Sidney Rigdon the rightful successor of Joseph Smith? Ep. 52

[@scottb4509]

In a meeting with the brethren Joseph Smith prophesied that, “there would come a time when Brigham young will preside over this church.” (Sept. 1832, church history 1:289). This was odd to prophecy this at that time because Sidney Rigdon was actually the presiding member of the first presidency just under Smith. And thus the conclusion would have been that Sydney would succeed Joseph in the event of his unlikely demise. This is made even more interesting by the prophecy made just a year later about Sydney Rigdon. Joseph said, “Brother Sidney is a man whom I love, but he is not capable of that pure and steadfast love for those who are his benefactors that should characterize a President of the Church of Christ…” (Nov. 1833, Church history 1:443). And still at this time Sidney Rigdon was ahead of Brigham Young in that line of succession as it was constituted. Smith had after all, already ordained Rigdon to be a “prophet, seer, and revelator” in his position in the first presidency. However, in 1841 Sydney Rigdon in an attempt to procure the leadership position due to Smith frequent imprisonments, and general absence, announced that he should be allowed to take Smith’s spot as head of and protector over the church. The 12 apostles declined and opposed this motion, and Rigdon subsequently apostatized from the church (History of the Church vol.7 ch. 19). This move on Sydney’s part facilitated the fulfillment the prophecy, which had Brigham Young as president of the Church and not Sydney Rigdon, after Joseph Smith was martyred in 1844.

[@mintbrownieangelfish-6114]

This was fascinating, thank you

[@stevenhenderson9005]

You have to be careful with church history, because after Joseph Smith died Brigham Young spent countless hours with Richards and Kimball altering, omitting, and changing journal entries, documents, and church history in order to establish what they called "the new order of things". It is recorded in D&C 90:that the keys to the Kingdom are given to the members in the first presidency this included Sidney Rigdon: Therefore, thou art blessed from henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you: which kingdom is coming forth for the last time. Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in this world, neither in the world to come:

[@scottb4509]

@@stevenhenderson9005 the idea that the keys shall never be taken from them, is a reference to outside sources and powers not having the ability to remove it from them. However, if you apply the principles of righteous and unrighteous dominion as explained in D&C 121, Smith says that the powers of the priesthood, which includes these keys of the kingdom cannot be exercised unrighteously, or else good by to that man's priesthood. The circumstances surrounding Rigdons attems to usurp Joseph's position even before Joseph was gone is a clear unrighteous dominion, which would result in Rigdonxs priesthood power and keys being stripped from him, by virtue of his dissention and disloyalty to Smith and the quorum of the 12. The position of the LDS church is that very similar events and circumstances caused the keys of the kingdom to be lost at the time of the NT church as well, when the apostles had the keys and due to the unrighteousness of their would be successors, those keys could not be worthily passed on and bestowed on others, before they were lost with the death of the apostles.

[@stevenhenderson9005]

@@scottb4509 Rigdon was with Joseph from the beginning and also received life long injures due to a mob attack and as you stated was second counselor in the first presidency making him the rightful successor. I have read the letters from Joseph Smith to Rigdon prior to his death and Joseph still saw Rigdon as his loyal friend. I don't see Rigdon exercising unrighteous dominion as you suggest but rather I see him acting in a proper manner to operate as guardian of the Church until Joseph Smith lll was of age. To me it sounds more like a power play from Brigham young to eliminate the fist presidency completely, because it's not like we would have lost the 12 if Rigdon continued his position in the fist presidency. The motive for the 12 to eliminate Rigdon was because of "the new order of things" which was the practice of polygamy. They knew that Rigdon wanted to eliminate the evil practice of polygamy and he most definitely would have eliminated those practicing it. I would argue that the one exercising unrighteous dominion was Brigham Young. There is documented accounts of BY changing altering and omitting Church History, journal entries, and other documents with Richards and Kimball and several church historians have talked about this just watch the KZbin video titled "Changing LDS Church History". When it comes to Priesthood that becomes a little tricky because Richard Bushman LDS Historian Scholar and others admit a problem with Priesthood and it would be very difficult to argue that Rigdon lost the priesthood. Brigham Young changed the structure to the church operations and so the way it works today is not same as what Joseph put in place. There are a lot of things that happened in order to make The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints one of the greatest religious societies on earth and although Brigham Young had a hand in that I think the US Government had probably one of the biggest part with forcing the hand of the leaders to stop the evil practice of polygamy. Almost all the teachings from Brigham Young have been disavowed now and just reading up on some of the things he did makes me cringe. However I will say if Rigdon would have stayed in the presidency I think he would have probably been murdered. However I don't think it is fair to throw Rigdon under the rug because he is a very important figure in the Church that has made it what it is today and to say he lost this invisible Priesthood for exercising unrighteous dominion is flat out wrong and disrespectful to his character. God does not intervene wicked decisions of men so if Brigham Young was a wicked man then God would not prevent him from taking over the church and using the tithing money as his own personal piggybank. It's just a good thing that people die and new righteous people come forth to correct the errors of the past. This church is not the greatest religious society because of One, but what makes the society great is the collective group of many great people that love the Lord and want to sacrifice for the loyalty in Christ. The reason most people are leaving the Church today is because they were taught and conditioned to believe in this perfect Church as their God and so leaders and other have felt it necessary to disregard or hide the human flaws that just makes this Church a regular religious society. It's the deception that was created in order to make this the only true and living church on earth that becomes the destruction. FAIR Latter-Day Saints and other apologetics continues this path of deception as a fight to keep people in. However people don't go to the Methodist church because they believe it to be the only true church, Baptists don't believe they are the only true church either. It is only in the minds of members that the church has to be the only true church and so when they realize that they were deceived then not only do they leave the LDS Church but most become Agnostic or Aithiest and never join another religious society again. The answer to this problem is actually in the Book of Mormon and it clearly confirms and teaches that the only true and living church on earth is the one in your heart and the religious society is just a tool for the conditioning of your heart. Read Mosiah Chapters 4 & 5 and read 3 Nephi 26:21 People become the Church of Christ The LDS Church just published an article from a BYU professor titled "WARNING AGAINST THE SAINTS OF GOD" and the article teaches that members of the church are in error when they assign the church of the Lamb of God or the church of the devil to a particular religious organization and it continues to read that we are these two churches and we become members of these churches based on our loyalty to either Christ or the Devil. Prior to 1835 Joseph Smith was teaching that the High Priesthood was received through the Holy Ghost after faith and repentance like how Alma received the athority to baptize after leaving King Noah, repenting, and then was confirmed through the Spirit of God the authority. You have been taught that the High Priesthood was given to Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John however that account was given in 1835, but prior to that in 1831 Lyman Wight ordained Joseph Smith with the High Priesthood, but wait where did Lyman Wight get the High Priesthood? And why is he giving it to Joseph Smith If Joseph Smith received it in 1829 from Peter, James, and John? Also why are there no recorded accounts of Peter, James and John until 1835? LDS Church Historian and Scholar says that the story of Peter, James, and John visiting Joseph appears to be fabricated later on. (Rough Stone Rolling) so we have a problem of the High priesthood being a later creation and that would mean the church wasn't actually organized with the High Priesthood. So what do we do with this information?

[@scottb4509]

@@stevenhenderson9005 I totally understand where you are coming from and recognize that it all depends on who you choose to believe. Do we believe BY whose inspired vision and pivotal actions and decisions as a leader lead to the preservation and subsequent expansion of the church and the doctrines taught therein, who's story unironically parallels that of Moses, who is said to be like unto the son of God, in spite of all the persecution, trials, and dissention aiming to tear both him and the church down? Or do we believe those dissenters, and antagonists who sought to tear him down, and do everything in their power to undermine his leadership, even to the point of possibly making up lies about him and starting rumors about what their twisted interpretations of his teachings ought to mean, and why people should reject him because of those straw man arguments they conjured against him? I don't believe that JS III was ever prophesied to be the prophet, in spite of what even Emma (and others) might have wanted to believe about her son. Again it comes down to who you choose to believe. And while i can see how reinterlreting and altering ones paradigm could allow for what you are saying, I simply do not believe that is proper way that we should be viewing things.

[@RussellFineArt]

Correction, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, presided by Brigham Young, knew exactly who would lead the church when Joseph Smith died as Joseph received revelation on it year earlier and taught the apostles shortly before he died, telling them that he had ordained every key, power and priesthood upon them collectively to run the church in his absence, as a quorum. Quorum means majority, which they had when Joseph was killed, who sustained Brigham as the senior apostle and prophet of the church. It's easy to understand, the same thing happened in Jesus' day, after his death, the senior apostle: Peter, became the prophet, as the Apostle Paul wrote about.

[@owlj0lson]

Thanks for all of these videos. I’ve been binging on them. I’m not Mormon, but I was adopted and in researching my biological history I found a large section of my family was LDS and some Reform LDS. My 6th great grandfather Richard Hewitt made his way down to Texas before settling down in Cherokee Kansas with a small group of members. His daughter left an autobiography that was fascinating, apparently he strongly believed that Joeseph Smiths son was the rightful heir and wrote a lot about it, and a letter he had from Hiram Smith denouncing polygamy. Most of the rest of the side of the family stuck with the church, many of them surprisingly had a lot of diaries so I’ve been binging on them during quarantine, and these videos. I can’t believe no ones made a series or film on Mormon pioneers, it’s a completely fascinating part of America history I’m a little embarrassed as a history buff to know very little about. Thank you so much for this great content!

[@brettmajeske3525]

There have been a few. Charleton Heston played Brigham Young.

[@mdawgwhite]

Well, where are these diaries cuz I would be SO interested in reading people's thoughts during those times!

[@owlj0lson]

@@mdawgwhite it’s actually sort of strange, it seems like they were the kinds of things they started writing at the end of their lives, my guess is to pass down to their families. I don’t know if was a tradition to do that, but I have a few from around the same time - ill look for a link for you they must be online someplace - I found them on ancestry from a few different sources but it is really fascinating to see how people lived back in those days

[@mdawgwhite]

@@owlj0lson ya call me a nerd but any kind of these things, I find interesting and entertaining. Looking forward to it

[@yeahbutdoesit]

The Church of Jesus Christ (Monongahela, PA) established in 1862 didn’t fail. Succession went from J. Smith to S. Rigdon to W. Bickerton. We use the Bible and Book of Mormon as our scriptures only.

[@KevlarX2]

Brigham Young and William W. Phelps were right. Succession fell upon the quorum of the twelve Apostles, just as it did in New Testament times when Christ was crucified. The quorum of Apostles needed to meet and prayerfully determine who among them Christ wanted to move his church forward with. Sidney Rigdon was trying to gain the leadership by doing an end around attempt and he was definitely not doing it the right way. The reorganized Church that formed afterwards, also erred by thinking the mantel still went from Father to Son as it was sometimes done in Old Testament and Book of Mormon days with Prophets.

[@davidsnell2605]

Video coming out about Joseph Smith III soon! Great comment.

[@KSASTAMPS]

If it was obvious that the Twelve should lead the Church then why wasn't the First Presidency and President of the Church immediately reconstituted at the death of Joseph Smith? Because the Twelve were NOT confident that they had the authority to take over management of the Church, because there is no revelation that empowered them to do so.

[@davidsnell2605]

@@KSASTAMPS I'm not sure Kevlar's comment claims it was necessarily 'obvious.' It definitely wasn't obvious to _everyone_ . As mentioned in the video, Joseph made as many as 8 different references to who should succeed him. There was a lot of confusion. It may have been obvious to Brigham and some others in the 12 that the mantel of leadership fell upon them, but how that passing-of-authority should take place wasn't clear, imo. Hence why it took so long to reorganize the First Presidency, etc.

[@johnchausow4857]

Love the video. I’ve always been curious about this whole period in church history. Thank you!!

[@heberfrank8664]

I have a hard time understanding how Rigdon could experience a revelation like D&C 76 and then get off track so far.

[@brettmajeske3525]

Ask how Laman and Lemuel could see angels and fall aways.

[@mattmetcalf559]

Sidney Rigdon deserve a lot of respect from Mormons he was a instrumental leader in the early days of the church. He wasn't afraid to stand up to Joseph Smith either.

[@jaketachermusic954]

I have read that after being dragged by his feet by a mob his entire personality changed, I feel a lot of sympathy for him, I think he probably had some residual effects of that through his life and was just basically a different person.

[@mattreedah]

That’s why I have a hard time criticizing the decision of a lot of that early generation. They suffered so much - More than I ever will - for the gospel

[@KSASTAMPS]

If the succession issue is a 10-layer cake, you have gone to about layer 2. If you ever take an issue in the church seriously enough to really go deep, you will likely reverse your opinion here. If it were obvious that the Twelve should be put in charge of directing the church, then where is the revelation in the D&C that empowers that? Further, that Sidney wanted to become the guardian is not too strange seeing that that is in effect what the Twelve did until Dec 1847 when BY stepped forward to force a reorganization of the First Presidency and had himself ELECTED as President of the Church by the Twelve. So, where exactly is the REVELATION that empowers the Twelve to: 1. Reorganize the 1st Presidency 2. To Elect the President of the Church. The simple answer is that there is NONE.

[@heatherluna5075]

Thanks so much for putting all these together. 💗💗💗

[@heatherluna5075]

I'm so grateful I have a testimony that Jesus is The Christ. 💛❤🧡💜💙💚

[@coalhouse1981]

At 513 you're a little off... The Bickernite branch still does exist..maybe you're not counting that as a Rigdon branch or maybe it depends on how you define failure...they don't have the numbers the Brighagamnites do...but all restoration movement branches are small in terms of world population

[@scottvance74]

Excellent video. You covered many of the key points. A couple of things that might have been good to note: 1) The battle between Rigdon and Young was actually a battle between the anti-polygamists and the polygamists. Brigham Young represented the polygamists who were really nervous about Rigdon (and Emma) because they would have gotten rid of polygamy. Quinn covers this well in his book Origins of Power. 2) Rigdon was upset about polygamy because Joseph had proposed to his daughter. There was a lot of bad blood after this event. 3) The people who followed Rigdon after the church split in 1844/45 were largely those who had been in his congregation prior to him (and his congregation) joining Joseph in 1831. 4) Rigdon liked to prophesy. After being baptized in 1831 he prophesied that: "They then proclaimed that there had been no religion in the world for 1500 years, --that no one had been authorized to preach and for that period, --that Joe Smith had now received a commission from God for that purpose, and that all such as did not submit to his authority would speedily be destroyed. The world (except the New Jerusalem) would come to an end in two or three years. The state of New York would (probably) be sunk." This mirrored the prophecy of Oliver Cowdery who in 1830 proclaimed the "destruction upon the world within a few years". 5) Pratt, who converted Rigdon was one of his assistant pastors in Rigdon's congregation prior to joining the LDS movement. 6) Young claimed essentially that no one could replace Joseph and that the 12 would be guardians until the second coming when Joseph would return to lead the church. However, within about 3 years he changed his mind and declared himself president of the church. It was a shrewd power grab. This last prophecy (item 4) was one of about 8+ LDS prophecies about the second coming, most of which predicted that Christ would come no later than 1890. Might make an interesting episode if you want something a little more controversial.

[@davidsnell2605]

Thanks for those details. One of the cons of trying to do short videos is that I have to cut out so much of this stuff!

[@scottvance74]

@@davidsnell2605 Understood and agreed. I thought that you did a good job balancing in this video. However, I think that the pro/anti polygamy bit was really key and would have hoped that you would included this detail.

[@davidsnell2605]

@@scottvance74 Fair enough.

[@shannonwalton8304]

Brigham Young, William Clayton And Phelps were all practicing polygamy and have lied multiple times about Joseph and his teaching. The gospel of Jesus Christ does require endowments, garments, or washing and anointing as is done today. BY said polygamy was set by God through JS, it was a law that once given, had to be obeyed in order to receive celestial glory Wrong. He said black will not receive the priesthood until the final resurrection. Wrong. He said Adam was the Father of our spirits and he was our Father in heaven Wrong. So, prophets can be wrong, they can lead the church astray. That is what Christ warns of in 3rd Nephi. "If ANY MAN comes and teaches more or less than this (the gospel) the same comes of EVIL."

[@jonbaker476]

You'd think that if Joseph knew he was going to die, he would've set up who the next leader should be. Even after Joseph spoke about how he was the only one on the earth to bring forth the true church permanently, something that Jesus couldn't even do (according to the words if Joseph), it seems strange that he didn't set forth a specific predecessor. I means, Jesus did it, didn't he? It's almost as if Joseph didn't plan on dying at all, and it wasn't some miraculous martyrdom. That would explain why he smuggled in a pistol and tried to stop the job by showing the masonic symbol for peace in the window

[@vfxtutswithdan1893]

Maybe. I don't know that he knew when and how he was going to die, but his comments at the time show he may have felt that death was near. Maybe he didn't plan enough, but these were difficult times for him and he was dealing with problems on all sides. Based on comments, we know he was working hard to finish endowment and sealing authority and then commended them to Brigham to have him carry them forward. I think his realization that his life was at an end might have come very quickly. But as a natural human reaction, while incarcerated at Carthage, he met with officials, tried to plan a legal strategy, and received the gun you mentioned, not really smuggling it in himself. When the violence came, he tried to defend himself, his brother, and his two friends who were also in danger. He did all he could, as I think many of us would, even if it's fruitless. There is no Masonic symbol of peace, but there is some thought that his last words were a Masonic call for aid (although that is debated), that no Freemason hearing should ignore. The next few weeks were full of fear and uncertainty, but life is messy and I don't know that every eventuality can be planned for. But from an LDS point of view, things turned out okay. Those who would claim leadership after Joseph really didn't grow and prosper in the way that the saints under Brigham and later presidents did.

[@aluf2567]

Absolutely love the Star Wars memes! Keep up the great work

[@davidlemon7543]

Thanks for the brief history lesson.

[@mdawgwhite]

I'm seriously curious to know why we still consider Joseph smith to be an honest person. There's too much history with him deceiving and lying to his members that anyone would consider anything he says serious. Its actually kind of sad with the technology we have to find history on certain people and still people refuse to accept the facts. JS was a terrible person who married girls as young as 14 and married women who were pregnant and whose husbands were away on missions(I wonder who had sent them away...?). This was all done before he decided to "come out" with his revelation about practicing polygamy. Before this for the 10 years before, he was saying he was monogamous and that marriage was between one man and one woman despite him having affairs(or marriages, whichever you want to call it) not sure what's better.. Neither. His past record is one that is pretty questionable and seriously fucked up if I should be honest.

[@jtonsing]

This video was amazing! Can help to settle arguments regarding succession in the church all while using Star Wars and Smash Bros. tie-ins. Absolute perfection right here.

[@ThoseOneGuysInc]

Brigham walking in as mace windu almost made me lose it 😂

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Gotta have a little fun in life, right? 🤣🤣🤣

[@johnroberts6695]

Please drop the STAR WARS kid stuff. It's very distracting. Rigdon, I think, deserves some slack because of the blows to his head by mobs. I can't totally excuse him, but God will be his judge. ✋😎

[@greymurdock2]

Thanks for sharing! Loved the star wars pop ups 😅

[@SaintsUnscripted]

Us too!

[@dinocollins720]

The clips on this one were too good haha

[@coalhouse1981]

Random useless fact. Alice Cooper's grandfather was once president of the Bickernite branch of Mormonism which spun out of Rigdons spilnter group

[@brettmajeske3525]

Additional useless fact, his father's was named Moroni.

[@stevenv6463]

Could you make a video covering Sydney's daughter Nancy Rigdon and the controversy about Joseph Smith asking her to be one of his plural wives?

[@peterblair4448]

I think it is hilarious that Sidney is the emperor in this episode.

[@thelatterdayarbiter]

Guess you can say Christ had it against Sydney riggedon ... Cinemasins: bad pun is bad pun (ding) 1

[@Lillith1941]

Apparently not.

[@kevincoleman9855]

Was he truly a martyr though?

[@davidamicus9757]

James Strang was the lawful heir to Joseph. He did the works of Joseph as prophet, seer, revelator and translator. Both of Strang's translations - the Voree Plates and the Book of the Law of the Lord had witnesses just like the Book of Mormon.

[@KevlarX2]

Strange was wrong, Sidney Rigdon was wrong, Bickerton was wrong, The reorganized church assertion of Father to Son is wrong, and all the others claims are wrong. All one has to do to know that is to gain a testimony of the gospel, by the power of the Holy Ghost to know for themselves, that the Lord's church which is never again to disappear from the earth, is in the right hands with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[@thekolobsociety]

KevlarX2 BOOM

[@heatherluna5075]

@@KevlarX2 Amen! Amen! And Amen. 💚💙💜🧡❤💛

[@davidsnell2605]

This is certainly a controversial topic that I thought deserved its own episode. It's already filmed and will be coming out in coming weeks. I'd suggest bringing this up again in the comments of that video if it doesn't answer your questions.

[@heatherluna5075]

@@davidsnell2605 Awesomeness 💚💙💜🧡❤💛

[@heatherluna5075]

I'm so grateful I have a testimony of the law of the harvest. 💚💙💜🧡❤💛

[@GwPoKo]

What's the law of the harvest?

[@heatherluna5075]

I'm so grateful that I have a testimony that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. 💛❤🧡💜💙💚

[@shawnlarrabee45]

Fun video. What was the deal with Sidney's daughter Nancy and Joseph? Wasn't there a big dispute and accusation that Joseph propositioned Nancy?

[@bobweiser3134]

I hope to one day work through all the trauma growing up Mormon has caused me.

[@MrManta2012]

the star wars clips are not wanted for this video

[@KevlarX2]

I thought it was clever. I like Star Wars though.

[@ArmyNavyAcademy]

I still say that the line held within the Smith family is still the true and original Church and all other ones are offsprings and offshoots, not that they are lesser or not legit, which I think they are, but I don't think they are technically the original branch.

[@KevlarX2]

Not even the original church in Christ's day, went by Father to Son. That was another change in the law that was evident. Christ chose Peter to take the mantel of leadership on the earth after his crucifixion, with James and John his counselors. Since the church faltered after the deaths of the Apostles, there is no scriptural way to show what they would have done after Peter was martyred. However, I am sure it would not have been a son of Peter.

[@heatherluna5075]

IT'S BETTER YOU HAVE AN OPINION OVER THE MATTER THAN NOT, FOR IF YE ARE LUKEWARM YE SHALL BE SPEWED OUT OF HIS MOUTH.

[@davidsnell2605]

There is another episode discussing the father-son line of succession issue having to do with Joseph Smith III that's coming out soon. I suggest hanging on to this discussion until after that video comes out and then we can flesh it out some more.

[@heatherluna5075]

@@davidsnell2605 YOUR THE BEST

[@naomipratt1947]

Putting Sidney Rigdon's face over that of Emperor Palpatine does not, concerning your bias, instill confidence.