Was there a Dalek Civil War that we never got to see?

There are lots of tidbits in Doctor Who's expanded media that shed some light on the eventual fate of the New Dalek Paradigm, as it was never explicitly confirmed on-screen what became of these colourful Daleks. There is even evidence to suggest that a civil war took place between Paradigm Daleks and Bronze Daleks, but is there any truth to this?
All footage is the property of the BBC.

[@newsreelhistory2237]

I think the problem with the redesign is that they never got a full appearance on yheir own to prove the naysayers wrong. If they had gotten a full episode or two-parter to show themselves off that might have really helped.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Honestly I think if “The Dalek Generation” was adapted with the Paradigm as their return rather then Asylum it’d work way better Imagine it as a two parter split into “Dalek Generation” and “Cradle of the Gods” with the Eternal introduced as the primary antagonist

[@hedgehog3180]

I hated them myself but in hindsight they make for a pretty good contrast with the Bronze Daleks and I like the idea of using them in some high ranking roles like bodyguards since they're larger and beefier and generally more intimidating.

[@DrBagPhD]

In my mind there's no doubt this happened. Went to the Doctor Who Experience in London and got "caught" by Paradigm Daleks on their ship, we escaped thanks to the ship coming under attack from the bronze Children of Davros Dalek faction. The lack of this civil war showing up in the actual series was very disappointing xD

[@ms.carriage6867]

The paradigm Daleks just needed a slight redesign and a more metallic paint job and a couple of stories to help get people used to them. The Eternal, Scientist, Emperor, Strategist, Done set up was interesting and could have led to the time strategist evolving into the show. I hated the re design of the Cybermen in their first N Who outing but i got used to it. Same with the paradigm Daleks

[@ItsButterBean1020]

I think “slight” is a little too generous but I agree I think shrinking them down a bit, removing the excess bulk and changing the colours would work (like the Drones are Grey and Black instead of Red)

[@ms.carriage6867]

@@ItsButterBean1020 a deeper metallic red for the drones would look cool imo but I agree with shrinking them down and cutting out that bulk in the middle and back

[@JArm1996]

Yeah I thought the same, they should’ve just updated them to be more metallic and keel then on as Moffat’s Daleks. Same way he had his own Cyberman design

[@crimsong8068]

Doctor Who is a show about time travel, it's never too late (or early) to show this civil war if it indeed happened... I would like the Paradigm to show up at least one more time, get that great story they deserved.

[@theevildalek5425]

Personally, I’ve always preferred The Civil War Theory over any other when it comes to the fate of The Paradigm. Now, this is coming from a slightly bias point of view as I saw that Children Of Davros segment in The Experience in person as a child when it first opened, which means that idea of a Paradigm/Children Of Davros Civil War has been with me for over a decade. But, it’s still a great theory! Because the TV Series never addressed what happened to The Paradigm, that leaves their fate over to interpretation. Personally, while I don’t mind the idea that The Dalek Parliament is what 11 destroyed on Trenzalore (I never really liked the idea much in the first place) I’ve always taken issue with the idea that all The Paradigm were destroyed with that ship. Feels a bit too convenient that all of an entire faction of Daleks were on 1 ship at 1 planet. The Civil War theory however at least is not only more interesting & less short sighted on the Paradigms part, but feels less specific & more open to interpretation & story potential. For example, we never find out how Davros survived The Crucible. Maybe The children of Davros have a part to play in that. Also it’s an interesting idea that despite being literally designed to be as pure as Daleks come, a faction of Daleks would reject The Paradigm and view themselves as being more pure. And you can actually understand that view point! I theorise that The Children of Davros (like the ones from Series 4) were grown & mutated from Davros himself. Davros is the last Kaled. What is more pure than what the Daleks originally mutated from & who created them in the first place? From The Children of Davros’ point of view, nothing. They are as pure as Daleks get, being the closest ones to the very first Daleks ever created! And than, this new Paradigm suddenly turns up & claims they are the Purest of Pure Daleks? Daleks created merely from a DNA Container? Yeah, they’re gonna have issues with that. I do like the theory that the Dalek Parliament was perhaps a way of a small alliance & ceasefire between the two factions (it justifies why the Daleks would ever need a parliament). But instead of all the Paradigm being destroyed with the Parliament, the Paradigm are instead weakened by it & many of their faction’s destruction, something which The Children of Davros take advantage of and finally destroy the Paradigm once & for all.

[@minicle426]

"Okay. The reaction to the Paradigms taking over from the Bronzes wasn't what we expected. So what do we do about it?" "Here's an idea. There's this civil war that we'll say just happened offscreen. That we can then use to handwave why they suddenly stopped showing up." "Brilliant! Have a fifty pence bonus!"

[@theylivewesleep.5139]

It didn’t help that the undercooked paradigm designs immediately destroy the older daleks. Even as a kid, I really didn’t enjoy seeing that.

[@MrMadre]

There is actually a hidden Paradigm dalek on skaro in the magicians appreciate/witches familiar. I forget where exactly but in an establishing shot of the main Skaro city you can see many Daleks flying around, including a paradigm supreme.

[@cobraking1195]

It’s a shame really, I personally liked the paradigm Daleks when I first saw them but I began to prefer them over the bronze once they got their new paint job (I would still keep the bronze design though, like asylum of the Daleks.) Personally I think as time has gone on the reception to the paradigm Daleks has become more positive as I see more and more positive comments about them around the internet, some even wishing for them to come back. I know it’s unlikely but with RTD taking the reins back I wouldn’t be surprised if he reintroduced the paradigms but I imagine that’s mostly a pipe dream, but here’s hoping. The only thing I would change (or try out) is instead of the supreme having a white paint job, make it have a black paint job-to get the supreme closer to the classic who supreme Daleks.

[@AnubisX1]

Whats interesting is that apparently the design wasn't hated as much as it was made out to be. paradigm operators, nic briggs and Mark Gatiss have said on commentaries and interviews, the Paradigm daleks where a big hit with younger fans and at the live events where people got to see their imposing stature. It was the older fans who seemed to have the issue according to them. If they had used the design that was used in Asylum. The Darker metallic colours and the removal of the humpback on the back , then i think they would of been liked more by older fans. As fans did say they looked really good in asylum. Its really sad the Moffat didn't give them one more chance as peoples minds about them where changing. Or at least give an official novel or something to account their fate.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Wasn’t there something about them sucking to work with behind the scenes

[@loganwallace101]

I remember watching it live when I was younger and I loved the new design, they seemed so much more threatening and the different roles and ranks were really interesting to me. I was excited to see more unique dalek characters like dalek sec or the old supreme but unfortunately it wasn’t the case

[@cameronmonaghan6883]

When I was a kid just after Victory came out I hated the Paradigm Daleks and assumed that the Movellan virus would reinfect them because the Daleks had to genetically reengineer themselves to cure it in the first place. I assumed that was somewhat what happened.

[@sword4005]

never understood why the bronze daleks would be considered impure, daleks are mutated kaleds, bronze daleks are created from the last Kaled davros, so how can they be impure?, i like to think dalek parliament was simply the daleks trying a new approach to leadership since the old ways had always failed, and bronze dalek casing were used because they were easier to produce then the Paradigm casings

[@jonathancampbell5231]

I think it was that those particular Daleks had their DNA altered by faulty time-travel somehow, which is why the machine didn't recognise them as pure Dalek; they chose to suicide over that, and also perhaps due to their particular generation of Daleks obviously failing. As to the Dalek parliament, for all we know there has ALWAYS been a Dalek parliament, and we just hadn't seen it before (obviously this was a post-Paradigm incarnation, but there could well have been others).

[@redengineer4380]

A reason I thought of was one which is supremely logistical in nature, and which makes sense for a fairly pragmatic race. The new shells are just more expensive to make. When you're talking about a small crack team built to restore an empire, it makes sense for the few Daleks you have on the team to have the best equipment. This makes them more able, more resilient, and more likely to succeed. But when you have a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or beyond, the additive effect of the shells may not be worth the cost. The bronze shells, as an older model, are more likely than not... just cheaper to make. If you have a billion soldiers, you might not want them to have the best gear money can buy. That would be expensive. Simpler gear will do just fine.

[@paulo9991]

Yeah I feel like the Civil War makes the most sense. It probably started the same way they all do with Davros and the Paradigm Supreme / Emperor fighting for leadership. Or ... the Dalek Eternal teamed up with the Dalek Time Strategist and took the Paradigm Daleks away with him into the time vortex to form his own Empire? I don't know ... I just want to see the Eternal Dalek and Time Strategist in the show.

[@princecharon]

I'd honestly prefer never to see the Paradigm Daleks on the show again, *unless* they appear in an episode about this hypothetical civil war.

[@Silverwind87]

The Paradigm Daleks going to war with the original Daleks would mirror what happened to Davros in his first apprarance. The Daleks created a new, "superior" lifeform, an evolution of their own species if you will. The new Daleks then turned against their creators, just like what happened to Davros. Of course, the Ironside Daleks might have welcomed death, but I could imagine those Daleks' superiors, maybe even the Supreme Commander objecting to the actions of the New Paradigm and believing they had too much power. Lots of screaming "YOU MUST OBEY" and "HAVE PITY" ensues. This was actually an idea that goes back to the classic era. Ray Cusick, the original designer of the Daleks (rest in peace) did a redesign of the Daleks. They would've been a new race of Daleks that would have destroyed the earlier models. Daleks are always experimenting with genetics and evolution, but they always destroy those experiments because they're impure. But what if the lab-grown Daleks saw their creators as impure? Maybe that's what always happens! Every new faction of Daleks usurps the previous one, in a neverending cycle of coups.

[@yehiahuzayyin7972]

My personal theory; the Daleks of the current Dalek Empire are the same as the Paradigm. It's just the casing that's changed. For the simple reasons that the Paradigm casing was impractical and that the old designs had the fear factor of being known across history. Little by little, the Moffat era _design_ was phased out, but the _Daleks_ are still the same.

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

If there was a Civil War, there's one major advantage that the Bronze Daleks presumably have. Since they're the souped-up "ready to fight and *win* the Time War" Daleks, there must be LOADS of them. Look at the Dalek Parliament! I also thinks Daleks time travel fairly regularly, so a Dalek Civil War would probably be hopping in and out of the Time War fairly regularly. Another blow to the Paradigm, as their enemies would suddenly be in much larger numbers.

[@legobi_wan_kenobi]

isn't the war time-locked?

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

​@@legobi_wan_kenobiOh yes, you're totally right.

[@aldraone-mu5yg]

Maybe paradigm casings were to difficult to produce in adequate numbers. Perhaps NPD’s were forced to use older bronze designs witch they had in abundance, or were more easily produced.

[@8158bolga]

Is that…the Flood theme from Halo in the background? I swear the music in the beginning of this video is from Halo.

[@gamewithadam7235]

No they broke one of the paradigm dalek set pieces and the public didn't like the new designs (but I loved them) and so instead they decided to use the old ones and phase them out.

[@thedaleklord2836]

I wrote the Paradigm-CoD Civil War in my fanfic Doctor Who The Invasion of Disney.

[@zaarthwren]

Give it time I’m sure big finish will hear all this and make a story on it they’re great at fan service

[@leebagley2617]

Would explain why the white dalek is destroyed in the wedding of river song

[@arrowtt3364]

I'd have loved to see a new Dalek Civil War between the Paradigm and the Time War designs.

[@pkscarr]

I actually really liked the paradigm daleks and i think it's a shame they were never given the chance to stand on their own in a few big stories, i naver agreed with the "power ranger daleks" sentiment as we've had colours used to denote a heirarchy through classic who, and the bulky casing had a lot of thought put into it with the idea that they would store different arms and weapons inside to be able to switch out, which was a shame we never got to see. A civil war storyline would have also been interesting and opened up opportunities for storytelling with the doctor playing both sides against the other. We've also seen in classic who that the daleks are willing to make alliances if there's long term gain in it for them (even if this mostly ends with them stabbing someone in the back) so the parliment could easily happen. Also a while back saw some fan renders of them in the classic silver and blue and dark grey colour schemes and they looked fantastic

[@nickthepick8043]

I personally love the minor touch-ups on the Paradigm's design in the Adventure Games. If they were to bring them back, it would be to capitalize on fan-interest regarding the mystery surrounding the Dalek Eternal. If it were me, I'd make the Dalek Eternal as an individual who "stayed in their own lane" for a while, knowing that acting openly could make it a target, specifically for the Doctor. As for its intentions, I'd say it could be the one who manipulate events behind-the-scenes retroactively to keep the conflict going for the Dalek race, because it knows the Daleks would fall apart if they did succeed in conquering the universe, but it also knows it should keep the race fueled by their purpose of conquest. It's a paradoxical existence, but a necessary one, hence the title "Dalek Eternal". This could also explain the continuity hiccups that regularly don't make sense, because it's just the Eternal either setting the Daleks back just enough to not be totally unstoppable, thus hindered, or to keep the attention off of its own activities. The Daleks must continue, no matter what.

[@CalebHowlett]

I actually like that

[@nickthepick8043]

@@CalebHowlett Oh hey, thanks! Coincidentally, I was just thinking of the Dalek Eternal when I got this notification. Pretty cool.

[@CalebHowlett]

@@nickthepick8043 yeah

[@grahamturner1290]

🐙

[@mrmrmadlad9167]

I think the fact that the Daleks themselves treat Davros with far more respect and reverence in the post-Paradigm era is a good hint towards the idea of a civil war. If the Children of Davros were the winners or at least the survivors of this conflict, why *wouldn’t* they have some respect for the guy they named themselves after?

[@BH-98]

My theory is that the Daleks realised the paradigm design was impractical (too big & wide, too colourful, etc) so they then decided to stop creating more of the new design & just go back to the old time war design. This meant there was a mix of the 2 designs seen in asylum of the daleks. Afterwards the number of paradigm Daleks dropped after multiple defeats such as the ending of time of the Doctor, where he used regeneration energy to blow up the last remaining paradigm daleks on the spaceship.

[@igncom1]

I hear that Tiberian Sun music!

[@SithLordDooku]

what i dont understand and please correct me. how are the daleks created from davros cells not pure dalek? when they are made from the dna of the last kaled? which...mutated into daleks?

[@ParakoEPC]

something about the Dalek’s DNA being from mutated Kaled’s I think-

[@dalekbumps]

Davros is heavily mutated, to the extent that Movellan scanners in Destiny of the Daleks register him as a 'humanoid mutant' rather than a Kaled. His DNA is incompatible with the post-Time War Daleks

[@SithLordDooku]

@@dalekbumps They already had the mutations occuring and he was trying to save them right? I know that’s stated in the I davros series. Just always that confused me that the ones made from him aren’t pure when they could technically alter genetics assuming davros remembers the coding for the kaleds?

[@gamewithadam7235]

The prime minister likely decided the paradigm daleks needed to go. The doctor making them forget him and what a pure dalek was probably made them stop respecting the pure daleks.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Just here to point out a Dalek video using Halo music is so cool a combo

[@TheSequelWasBetter]

I'm fine with the theory, but I don't much care for the name "Children of Davros." It sounds too mystical and fantastical for the Daleks (same reason I don't care for the name "Cult of Skaro," even though I don't mind the existence of the group). Call them "Dalek Revolutionary Faction Omega" or whatever.

[@TheSmart-CasualGamer]

I can see where you're coming from, but Daleks do have a weirdly cultural bent to their nomenclature. It's all unnecessarily aggressive and leads to things like the Emperor calling himself "The God of All Things Dalek. It's only a couple of steps up from naming the guy in charge "The Supreme Dalek".

[@hedgehog3180]

I feel like the parliament was also an underutilized idea because it honestly kinda makes sense for the Daleks. After all they see each other as equal and are shown to be extremely intelligent and quite rational so it'd make sense for them to establish a deliberative body to ensure their war with the entire universe is being conducted in the best manner possible. Plus it feels more impactful than having an emperor, it just never felt right to me that the Daleks would submit to a single individual when those emperors are so often fooled and lead astray by their own arrogance.

[@bobby_the_ps2]

Was hugely disappointed we never got to see the paradigm daleks in action. Would've loved to see the paradigm red daleks as elite troops or something.

[@dalekexterminae]

Daleks trying to not start a civil war: impossible

[@TheBritFromOz008]

The Civil War explanation (which I'd never heard prior to this) is perfectly plausible and carries a bit more weight than the paradigm just getting shunted aside as they rebuilt the Empire. With that said, the paradigm being shunted aside as a result of constant defeats is also perfectly plausible. Really, there's no getting around the fact that the fan backlash to the Paradigm daleks meant the production team decided to sort of pretend it didn't happen and went back to the bronze daleks. I find it hard to seperate any in-universe explanation from that unfortunately. The paradigm daleks (whose designs I have no issue with btw; the metallic ones in Asylum looked fantastic) were really wasted potential; we still have no clear idea what the function of the Eternal dalek was which could have been a whole story in of itself. Had they been stuck with for another story or two to show what they could do (something which didn't really happen in any of Matt Smith's dalek stories), they might still be around today. I think I've read somewhere (maybe on this channel?) that the paradigm daleks were dismantled after their appearance in The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot so I doubt we'll see them again. With that said, RTD has said that come Season 14, the bronze daleks will be retired in favour of a new design. Hopefully, history won't repeat itself.

[@buck5665]

I think they would have look better if they gave them bronze dalek style stalks. they looked a bit better in the parlament scenes as they gave the coloured ones a darker more metallic red and blue and cut the extended back panel off the skirt which made them look a lot better. shame they never returned for series 9 like intended

[@matthewcollins7358]

Honestly, I prefer the idea of the Paradigm Daleks just decided to go back to the bronze design. Reasons could be to harken back to their greatest wars - Second Dalek War, Time War, etc - and other Paradigm Daleks simply remained as officers.

[@lordferbus2970]

I assumed that they died out on Trenzalore They were quite low in number in the parliament, playing higher up roles, so it makes sense for the majority of them to be aboard the parliament ship when it exploded

[@legobi_wan_kenobi]

The Paradigm would have easily defeated a bronze Dalek faction, they can destroy bronze Daleks in one shot

[@gamewithadam7235]

I can only guess Dalek Cann teleported Sec's armour to Davros and he made use of it since it's one of the strongest forms of dalekanium.

[@bennyfagor104]

I actually really like the thought of another Dalek civil war involving the Paradigms. It makes a lot of sense in universe plus it makes for some cool concepts.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Really hoping Big Finish does this story

[@heeman1203]

If I can make a suggestion. Just because a Paradigm Dalek is not in the paradigm casing, doesn't mean its no longer a paradigm Dalek, its possible that the new dalek paradigm found the Time War casings to be easier to mass produce.

[@alexthemtaandr211weatherfa2]

That doesn't make sense

[@paladinboyd1228]

I can see that, something happens that puts the Daleks into a situation where they are running out of resources and time to make the better casings and go back to the tested and cheaper cases as they can be made quicker.

[@The_doctor_who_channel]

I love this idea I may make an audiobook out of the idea!

[@redjirachi1]

When you don't explain a design change not sticking so people make up an entire plot just to explain it. We live in a society, bottom text

[@thomasjohnson8391]

Can you do a history of the dalek figures from the 2000s

[@erubin100]

What wasted potential! A civil war story between the old daleks amnd the paradigm daleks would've been epic! To make things more interesting, you could write it where the newer daleks are bigger and stronger and can easily destroy many regular daleks at a time but the older daleks outnumber them by dozens to 1, similarly to the cult of skaro vs the cybermen in Doomsday. I'm hoping they do come back as a rebel faction since they were never really confirmed to be wiped out.

[@patsey3199]

I think one reason I like the Paradigm Daleks is cause I just love to see variations of different things. And as heretical as it may seem to daleks to branch into different design philosophies, I think it’s part of what helped them be so deadly over the years.

[@MRbug_423]

The paradigm daleks had such an unforgettable fate. However I do like to think the community has accepted them now, for two reasons. 1. Because their design had grown on people. Or 2. Because Chibnall's team had made worst dalek designs. Like the kit bashed dalek or the trump daleks

[@paladinboyd1228]

and if I remember right they were supposed to be Officer Daleks not the ones we see every time the Daleks are out and about, which added to the Dalek lore and made sense. Once that was made clear they became a lot more likeable.

[@MRbug_423]

@@paladinboyd1228 nah, they were meant to be the new daleks. It's the red ones that were meant to be common

[@paladinboyd1228]

@@MRbug_423 Yeah just remember reading somewhere that was the plan before they scrapped them and went back to the bronze. I think the wiki was lying. Lol.

[@EC23331]

I’ll be watching this at 12:33 am

[@kwissy9806]

Music in the video?

[@dalekbumps]

'Ancient Machine' from the Halo 2 OST, by Marty O'Donnell 'Davros' from the Series 4 soundtrack, by Murray Gold And 'Pharotek', from the Command and Conquer: Tiberian Sun OST, by Frank Klepacki

[@SapphireStar23]

When it comes to the Daleks and new generations. Some form of battle is going to be born. Also, I had an unrelated thought on who leads the Daleks now. Is it a supreme Dalek, Davros, a new Emperor, a new Prime minister, The Dalek Time Strategist, or someone/something new and unknown? Because I think we fans are long overdue on who commands this terrifying race.

[@jonathancampbell5231]

To be frank, it isn't clear if there even is one clear leader anymore, or if there aren't multiple factions of Daleks out there these days.

[@OptimysticPessimyst]

This was the multi-series arc I keep talking about that should’ve started from Victory and ended by the time of Time of the Doctor.