Western liberal democracy would be wrong for China

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Filmed at the Emmanuel Centre on 7th November 2012.
Event info:
People everywhere are better off living in liberal democracy: that has been the reigning assumption of the western world. But could it be we've got it wrong? If you were one of the world's billions of poor peasants might you not be better off under a system dedicated to political stability and economic growth -- one that has lifted 400 million out of poverty -- rather than one preoccupied with human rights, the rule of law, and the chance to vote out unpopular rulers? Thanks to the Chinese model of government life expectancy in Shanghai is now higher than in New York.
So is China better off without democracy? Or is that just the age-old mantra of the tyrant? That's the clash of civilisations that played out on November 7th.

[@AT-lp8qg]

I'm only in my 20s but this is my humble opinion. The real reason why western liberal democracy does not work for China is because western democracy is born out of the cultural history of Europe. It was shaped by the ideals of the Roman, Greeks, the Enlightenment thinkers. It taken into account what is most valuable to Europeans and many Westerners. But the Chinese don't value those principles the same way. The Chinese is more pragmatic when Westerners are more idealistic. Let's take this debate as an example. The supportive argument for the Chinese government is based on how much (statistically) China has lifted its people out of poverty and raised the standard of living. That's what matter most to Chinese. However, the support for democracy here was based on emotions and unquantifiable attributes like freedom of speech and universal suffrage. Because that's what matter most to Westerners - individual rights. The reason why Western liberal democracy is wrong for China because the Chinese people don't value the principles of democracy as much as they value the principle of communism. Chinese people form their views based on their cultural heritage, where it taught them that UNITY is the most important, more important than individualism. Asking Chinese to adopt western democracy is as nonsensical to them as asking Westerners to adopt communism, it goes against everything they value. Of course freedom of speech and right to vote sound nice, but to the Chinese would ask themselves, nothing is for free. What do we have to trade for those nice stuff? Chinese will be looking at many Western countries for the answer to that question. And what do they see? The democracy that is in practice in many western countries are much uglier than the ideals they preached. Let's take the US for example. Ideally, its leaders should be voted for and serve the people, but what happened is that leaders are voted in to serve the interest of corporations. The corporations is allowed to privatized their profits and communized loss. If they mess up, the people will bail them out. And if they mess up the environments, the people will foot the bill. Secondly, the parties are busy fighting among each other and nothing get done. The same thing is happening in Britain and Europe. Of course you can say I'm diverting from the main arguments, but that where we got it wrong. We like to discuss democracy in its ideal form, in the way that the Enlightenment thinkers envision democracy should be. But when we discuss Communist China, we talk about all that went wrong. The Chinese is looking at Democracy the way Westerners look at Communism, what went wrong and how it actually is like in practice. So instead of asking when or how the Chinese could adopt the western democracy, we should try to solve our problems first. We can look at China and say they have so many problems, but then the Chinese would look at us and see all our problems. Why would they let go what they have now just so they can inherit a new set of problems. What would happen to China is that they will continue to develop their nation economically where their citizens are wealthy enough to think about democratic ideals, but they probably will not adopt the democracy that we seeing now but they will develop their own version of it, taking into account what the Chinese people value most.

[@mkpark2761]

I really enjoyed to read your comment. I would like give you many claps 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 and thank you🙏🙏🙏

[@travelinchina223]

Yes, I agree with you, you really have a deep insight than the debaters who against the motion.

[@baibruce6156]

Great comment and deep understanding.

[@shepherdsknoll8]

A T , the flaw in your argument is that the rule of law is not a western cultural practice/ idea but rather a universal practice/idea. The rule of law applies not only to the people of a country, to obey the laws as imposed by the government, as the Chinese would have you believe. The rule of law applies not only to the people of a country but also to the government of a country. Laws being enforced by the court system within the country. The rule of law is practiced by Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Philippines, non of which are western cultures.

[@venmis137]

I agree, perhaps a form of Meritocratic Democracy would be more fitting for China's civilisation. Here in the west we only really have liberal democracy because it is seen as the least worst option. A quick look at the average western voter is enough to make you detest the concept of direct democracy. It will be interesting to see what form China's government will take. Authoritarianism doesn't really work in the kind of country that china is turning into. From what I can tell it will evolve into a unique chinese oligarchy or democracy with a hands off approach to governance, though I honestly don't know (and wouldn't be expected to, I'm looking at this situation from the other side of the planet in Europe). Regardless I do hope that the world continues to prosper.

[@rogerfaint499]

Key question? Did Anson Chan pushed for free election in Hong Kong for its elected leader under British rule? No, as long as she enjoyed high position as chief secretary of a colonial power, a freely elected leader by Hong Kong citizens for Hong Kong was not important. So, why flaunt your abundance of hypocrisy when you did nothing to talk about free election under British rule? Was corruption rife in Hong Kong under British rule?

[@tde1873]

+Roger Wsy Did she push for it? You don't know. I would be cynical too if my government where your meritocracy. Ha does anyone really believe that a Chinese government official was elected on Merit. Does merit mean being clever and stabbing your opponents in the back maybe literally or bribing someone.

[@saraishinisayoutubetroll3720]

bribe and stabbing happens in democracy too.

[@michaellim492]

she is a hypocrite............

[@bosnbruce5837]

+t de "Does merit mean being clever and stabbing your opponents in the back maybe literally or bribing someone." YES! If that is what makes your province or your city more prosperous, that is literally what you do. And I am not talking hypothetically: When it comes to China, corruption is NOT all bad.

[@WayneHuo]

@@tde1873 Western Liberal democracy is where selected and privileged people get a chance to run for office. Whether they win or not will depend on their maneuver and collaboration with the media. You don't need a proven track record to win. In fact, you only need about 30 -40 percent of the population to support you to win. A person who failed many business attempts but managed to swindle millions out of others can still become a President. In China, you can argue that only the selected and privileged are given the chance to hold office. Only they get to prove their capabilities and move up the ladder. You only get to move up the ladder based off results though, you should see how well President Xi did with his cities and provinces before reaching the position he is in now.

[@NookaNifty]

"Tibet doesn't happen when you have democracy" Native Americans and African Americans: "Are we a joke to you?"

[@blardymunggas6884]

Many westerners are harping about freedom of speech but do not realized they really don’t have one. A bad comment on yt is taken down all the time for example. The west don’t understand how the chinese view the ccp and why are platforms like FB or YT are banned. Most chinese view their ccp gov as their father or head of the family by heart due to recent successful track record. Regarding the ban of FB or YT, as I mentioned above, they can control what they want you to see which is dangerous for any country. No difference to why so many countries ban porns or etc. If a platform that can be used by the US to brainwash their people, why would any country allow it? Freedom comes with responsibility. Do you have the freedom to kill? Same thing

[@hareeshscifi13]

It's an unfair comparison, because Tibet had feudalistic society with slaves making the intervention way more humane compared to what US does.

[@soyasuwabe7898]

When yourself are soaked in mud yet still pointing finger at the stains on others.

[@blardymunggas6884]

@@soyasuwabe7898 talking about the west? Thats absolutely accurate👍🏻

[@elmohead]

@@blardymunggas6884 100% correct. Westerners claim freedom of speech but can't even say the n word.

[@kksykksy4904]

I am a Chinese，I am a common Chinese citizen, and I want to express my views honestly here，My country has been divided too many times in history, and many lives die in each division，So I will never allow my country to split again，We will never change our one party system at present，Because multiparty system will bring about division，And we don't trust the U.S. government，Because the U.S. government always interferes in the internal affairs of other countries. If we become a multi-party system, the United States will certainly invade and interfere in our internal affairs. The U.S. government has always hoped that China will fall into chaos and division again，We know that Western governments are never friendly to China, so we will never change our system. We will continue to support our one party system，But one party system and multi-party system also have corruption，Some government officials are becoming corrupt and corrupt，The more local government, the more corruption，Fundamentally, what we need to learn from the west is how to stop these corrupt officials，We don't want to privatize something，If something is privatized, it will be very difficult for us poor people，We ordinary people trust our central government very much, because the national policy always aims at serving the people, and improves our infrastructure, and provides good services for our life safety，I have only one worry about our country，Some officials become corrupt when they gain power,They no longer think about the country and the people, they start to harm other officials，We have been stepping up efforts to crack down on these corrupt officials, but the more remote the officials are, the more corrupt they are，In the future, we will continue to fight against these corrupt officials，I think the western system has both disadvantages and advantages，Its advantage is that people can vote to replace these officials within a few years,The ideal of democracy is good, because everyone wants a just and competent government to lead the country and people forward，The disadvantage is that multi party system can compete for power and accuse each other of each other，This can easily lead to division and inefficient policies，The Western voting system can replace the president, but not the national policy，The gap between the rich and the poor is easy to increase，Whether it is our system or western system, I hope to learn the advantages of each other to make up for their shortcomings，Most importantly, the era of dogmatism in the Soviet Union and the United States has come to an end. Every country has the freedom to choose its own path, because no one is willing to follow the instructions of others. Everyone and the country are free

[@johnyan836]

I agree that "stability" is of ultimate importance for China. But it gives no excuse for all 1.4 billion can only obey and listen to one party and one person ONLY. There are ways to keep China as one country and no other country can and dare to interfere China's internal affairs. An opening China exerts more weight in the world than a China that has been enclosing all of her people in a "wall".

[@TesterBoy]

No one in democratic Taiwan wants your Chinese Communist Party dictatorship and police state. You are lying to yourself!

[@FlagggRandall]

@@johnyan836 You think there's much difference in the West with its two party systems? Both represent the same interests. Their purpose is to have the population divided in petty affairs, while the real rulers are the multinational corporations (no one votes for them). Their answer to economy is the same, austerity, debt, and salvatage of big investor pools when there's a crisis. Most of the countries that promote democracy didn't have open democracy until very recently, they have no saying in defining democracy. Freedom of speech is a neologism for freedom of lobby, that's what journalists do (they represent the lobbists). I'm not saying full statism is good, but be aware of what the think tanks say, from all sides. All of them have an agenda, since they have to bring food on their table you understand? Someone pays for their salaries.

[@johnyan836]

@@FlagggRandall Winston Churchill once said: “democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others that have been tried.” Most people cannot accept that the entire country listen to only one party and the one party listen to one person only. Democracy is the way human society should go, improving as we go.

[@FlagggRandall]

@@johnyan836 I know what you mean, one party system has major issues, therefore, it's unsustainable, but you must understand that the foreign thinkers, or even nationals backed by foreign NGO's, that push Western democracy in China don't have the Chinese interests in mind, quite the contrary (westernization of China, destined to be once more the world sole superpower, was always an imperative as Kissinger said). It would be easy to subdue you with a multiparty system. This kind of changes must be natural and genuine, and must emerge from the 'heart' of the land, the people. The way of truly achieve this is hard of course, it's difficult to determine when a evolution of a political system is genuine you know.

[@vrindavantodayofficial]

So this is from 2012. It is now 2019. After the election in 2016, I wonder who thinks the American system works better than the Chinese meritocracy.

[@anschiver]

1. China is definitely not a meritocracy, even though the government tries to paint it's grip on power in these terms 2. American democracy is one of the most disfunctional democracies, worse than some African democracies so it shouldn't be the benchmark to measure democracy's virtues against

[@gbbchen1070]

I do, the us economy rocks and China s economy is on the track to hell

[@choijulian6704]

anschiver China is as meritocracy as it can be. All government officers competed their way to the top. Even president Xi started as a village officer. By the time an officer enters the central government he would’ve already accumulated the experience of running a local government with population in the millions. Government recruit college students with tests exams and interviews and only select those with the highest performing ones. If that’s not meritocracy, I don’t know what is.

[@kylehankins5988]

Considering China was ruled by the widely incompetent chairman Moa for 26 years. I don't think the election of Trump really proves much.

[@balafama2120]

@小熊维尼 oh shut up.

[@urbandweller]

The old lady (former secretary of Hong Kong) is mixing up with her statements... some of them are outright incorrect while the rest are based on broad ideological assumptions rather than empirical evidence and specific facts. Weak argument against China's system.

[@ZKYBill]

makes her a perfect politician in the west

[@brianchangyrs]

Remember UK and America growth was on the back of opium and slaves. This debt has never been paid to the victims. She is void of history and facts. Pure western talking head.

[@massachusettes]

She is still mad that Beijing did not make her the Chief Executive of Hong Kong SAR.

[@steveanderson1632]

@@massachusettes If you can assess google you'll know her father was a famous KMT general.

[@trock7542]

Joe zhifu no it was freer markets the agricultural and industrial revolution that created the wealth of the west particularly that of England and America. Spain, Portugal, had far more slaves in their colonies in the Caribbean as well as south and central America. The lasting wealth comes from price including the price of labor. There is no incentive to industrialize (invest in labor saving devices) if someone has already invested in slaves (see Ancient Greece and Rome). In fact slavery is common among nearly all civilizations throughout human history. China had slaves until as late as 1949. What was uncommon were the west’s freeing of markets and capital and the individual and even Romantic emphasis of the individual. In fact the most vulnerable minority will always be the individual.

[@kiwifruitkl]

While I was born in China and lived there for a few years, and travelled to China during summer vacation one time, I spent most of my days in the USA. My mother travelled to China twice, perhaps, and my father three times? Anyway, every time he went to China, he would visit his old hometown in the rural countryside. His rural relatives still lived together, but instead of in a village, they were lined up alongside the road, house by house. They told my father that they built the houses themselves, and my father was very impressed by the construction. It was a 2-story building. The rural relatives would still farm, but as you know, that would take a lot of time, so they would go to the city to make spare change and pocket money. Just so you know, it's not that they don't have any rights in the city. It's just that they are not registered in the city. They are registered to the town in which they live, not the big nearby city.

[@hubreydavid7864]

Nothing wrong with Farmers without them a country will starve.

[@jiachen7865]

Now a day, people is dying to get registering in village, lol

[@sadagopanrs8103]

Obooo

[@sadagopanrs8103]

Bo

[@ELGtheMAN]

People have to remember that western countries didn't become rich because of democracy and freedom of speech but rather colonisation of other countries for over 100 years or longer. Colonisation comes with lootings and stealing of resources and enslavement of their subjects which had contributed greatly to their wealth. Another factor was the west had the edge and upper hand because they were the producers and manufacturers of the First Industrial Revolution, in which lots of the raw materials were also gotten from their colonies. So to those people who still think China couldn't prosper further and sustain their wealth without western style democracy and freedom, you're totally ignorant of history and facts.

[@rogerfaint499]

85 million Indians died of starvation under 3 famines in India under British rule because the British forced Indians to plant cash crops like opium, instead of their traditional food crops.

[@keithwhitlock7021]

And forced the Opium on China with warships and troops.

[@alexflannders5681]

Britain did some terrible things to other countries true. But it is comparable to what the communist party did to Chinese people. 三年大饑荒, "three years of famine") was a period in the People's Republic of China between the years 1959 and 1961 characterized by widespread famine. The policies of ruler Mao Zedong contributed to the famine, Estimates of deaths due to starvation range in the tens of millions.

[@davidknapp5403]

@@alexflannders5681 good point

[@baomeson]

just out of curiosity: 1. Why didn't Anson Chan directly answer the question from the man with the orange sweater? (the question was: "I assume you reached your powerful position without being voted in by a single Hong Kong resident. Why do you think the UK thought it was wrong for Hong Kong to have liberal democracy, even the last governor Chris Patten was imposed upon you, was that a mistake?") Obviously the 'powerful position' refers to the position of Chief Secretary, which is the second most powerful position in British Hong Kong, rather than the position of member in the legislative council. 2. I don't like her tone of speaking, which reminds me of some real dictator. To me, she was there more like criticizing the current Chinese system rather than providing insights about the motion itself.

[@klu7499]

Sorry nobody answered you for last 3 years. Anson Chan reached the position of power just like all the other previous British governors that ruled Hong Kong - by appointment. Yes, when unelected, undemocratic appointment of a Hong Kong governor is advantages for the West, it is called democracy.

[@EddieCheong168]

Her fxxking answer and excuse was that " I'm a civil servant" ha ha ha. The Queen liked her hair do!!!

[@fangjia6531]

o0o0o o0o0o Anson Chan was a slave of Chris P, and she was appointed by her master. She doesn’t bother to think why her master now give her freedom while he is on his way out of Hong Kong. What a pity and ugly women!

[@stng4857]

She is just a western parrot. Ignore her.

[@nabeel123ful]

I think she answered it by transforming the definition of democracy in her own way instead of giving one man one vote.

[@elvishassassin1]

1:28:09 Martin Jacques hit the nail on the head. As an ethnic Chinese who grew up in a Western country, I have clashed with my parents countless times over differences of value. Their ways of thinking and seeing the world were incomprehensible to someone like me who was fed liberal western values my whole life through the education system and media. I believed the Western system to be superior, however as I got older and saw the problems faced by Western democracies (particularly the US), my views shifted. I finally I am coming to understand my parents point of view, even if I don't agree with them. The two systems are fundamentally incompatible as Western society puts the individual first and Eastern society puts the collective first (the nation is just the family "writ large" as Margin Jacques so eloquently put it), which explains why Chinese people, despite internal disagreements, are so eager to unite to repel any foreign interference in their affairs, as well as the rising nationalism in recent years - which I believe is in reaction to the increasingly hostile anti-China narratives being peddled by Western media and governments. Regardless, I think East and West can and must learn to co-exist and co-operate in a globalized world and work together to solve problems that affect all of our futures. Also I want to add to Jacques' point about the Chinese concept nation being equivalent to a large family. In fact, the Chinese word for "country" is 国家 which literally translates to "nation family". The character 国 translates to a physical "country" or "nation" and the character 家 translates to "family" or "home" (in Chinese it is the same concept). This is just one example that reflects the vast differences in thinking and conceptualising the world between China and the West.

[@TheVafa95]

In 21st century we need to extend national concept of family to that of the humanity, and accept the fact that "world is but one country and mankind its citizens" so a new a novel way of governance need to be invented.

[@manueldumont3709]

Nothing wrong with(inventive)-Individuality.....as long as the Greater-Good is achieved, when the(army, social-services, etc)-Need arises . 👷👮🧑‍🚒🧑‍🎓🧑‍🍳

[@manueldumont3709]

I'd Hate to be(LockDown)-Chinese....living in(DICtator Xi Jinping's)-China, right now . 😥🤕😷🏴‍☠️

[@mikecamacho1934]

China has always been a class society. With Emperor's, Military and the peasants. China has never known Democracy other than in Hong Kong and Taiwan. So, it cannot speak on what it has never known. Any comment to the contrary would be made completely in ignorance. Hong Kong and Taiwan has demonstrated that Democracy would flourish in China.

[@manueldumont3709]

@@mikecamacho1934 History "flies out, the window", when the Chinese-ppl of Today, DEMAND Democracy. 🥷😷🦾🌈

[@angyuhxin2895]

References from a Gen Z who has been binging Intelligence Squared, in order of appearance: 3:42 Zhang WeiWei (Senior Fellow at the Chungiu Institute, Author of The China Wave: the Rise of a Civilisational State, and former translator to Deng Xiaoping) 17:19 Anson Chan (Former Chief Secretary of Hong Kong, Campaigner for democracy) 30:50 Martin Jacques (Author of When Ching Rules the World, visiting senior research fellow at LSE, visiting professor at Tsinghua Uni, Bejing)

[@user-vf5vm6qr5p]

when Anson chan appointed as the leader she said she have the potential , when other person but not her appointed the leader, then it began not democracy. why UK can appoint the governor of HK, then comes to China it becomes not democracy. whe she didn't ask the question to the UK Government? the only problem is she failed to become the Chief executive of HK, which maks she so angry, and her ideals changed totally.

[@faiosung]

ah, explains a lot

[@tongfattho6913]

Anson Chan didn't seem to mind being a second class citizen under the British rule because the British governor had taken good care of her. That is freedom. She misses that.

[@Lewis-zp7dr]

Anson Chen said children of migrate workers do not have access to education, this is absolutely false! All young people are mandated to receive 9 years of school no matter rich or poor.

[@maxcheng6303]

Lewis What you said is the paper words, but Anson Chan is right, the children have to left home with their grand parents because they don’t have the city resident card.

[@aliceaquac8219]

@@maxcheng6303 Anson Chan is saying the situation right, but chose to ignore the whole truth and reason behind it. Just like most western media when reporting Chinese related issues, they don't lie, but just don't tell the whole truth. If you are migrate worker from country town to city, with no stability of job and less than ideal living conditions would you bring you young children along with you, when they can actually have comfort at their home with care by trustworthy family members? Resident card is a factor, but Chinese people are very family orientated. All their hard works are to bring a better life for their children. So they would work hard and living in discomfort environment, as long as they can make more money to send their kids for better educations. And resident card is not only apply limitations for migrate worker, but for everyone living in China. for a massive population like China, there isn't any better way to managing and maintaining life standard for majority of the society. The paper words you refers to is actually happening in China. pretty much all kids even they lives at the mountain with very limited access to the outside world, still getting proper educations for up to 9 years.

[@winchesterlyon]

Not only that, even if what she claimed were true, she's described something that happens in every democratic country on the planet. Under Obama, more people get deported under his regime than any other president before and since. In the UK, people born in the UK to immigrants were being deported to their parent's home countries.

[@Ghe480]

If democracy is so great, then why there a civil war in USA in 1860? The confederate states voted to breakaway in a democratic voting but war was impose by the Union? Why was their choice not respected?

[@chinahamyku6583]

Looking at this debate 10 years later, the answer may have become clear. Churchill once said that "democracy (Western-style democracy) is indeed not a good thing, but it is indeed the best system that can be found so far." But as far as China is concerned, the elite political system currently adopted by China is indeed the best system that China can find so far, which is determined by Chinese history and culture. The United States and the Western world are keen to talk about China's lack of democracy and human rights, and the Chinese are oppressed. If China is like this, how can China become the most dynamic economy in the world? Before the new crown epidemic, 120 million people traveled abroad every year, contributing 200 billion U.S. dollars in tourism consumption to the world every year? Why is totalitarian and unfree China's GDP six times that of democratic India? Why is the United States so unconfident in the face of a rising China today? China's development over the past 40 years proves that the path China is taking is correct and conforms to China's actual situation. In the past 10 years, the Chinese have seen the decline or stagnation of the United States and the Western world, the chaos of democracy in the West, and the wanton destruction of globalization by the United States for its own self-interest. . . . The Western world keeps promoting the so-called Western-style democracy to China. Its purpose is to expect that one day the two political parties in China will continue to fight each other, thereby hindering the development of the entire country. This is very evil and China will never fall into this trap.

[@willyhwang1059]

Martin Jacques is one smart dude. His closing comment is spot on.

[@kimho5828]

7 years past, time is proving Weiwei and Matin is right,

[@superpooper_2030]

It's right at sometime when evil CIA sponsored and planted spies to liberate HK from China

[@pithikoulis]

Well not really. Freedoms seem to decline since Xi.

[@superpooper_2030]

@@pithikoulis The real freedom is criminals able to be extradited to foreign countries. That's freedom to impose correct law!!!.

[@pithikoulis]

@Johney Smith that is what happens when you have a megalomaniac who doesn't listen to the people. It happens with all dictatorships.

[@cadhlaohanlon4443]

@@pithikoulis still living in the fantasy world? The violent mobs in HK is not peaceful at all.

[@bojoondong7911]

Hahaha.. I felt ashamed having to watch one of the descendants of our kind, standing there giving ideas of insults after insults of her own ancestral family. If this Chinese lady feels that her preference is Western Democracy, then the most ideal homeland is in a Western Nation. It’s a shame to hear that the Chinese lady making shrewd criticisms about her own Chinese culture. I felt so embarrassed that Mr Martin J. seems to know much much better about China and has so much Respect for Chinese culture than this lady who is a Chinese descendant by origin. Jonathan has his own opinion about the China he knew while he was there back then years ago. That’s understandable for his kind of experience at that era. However then, we cannot keep living in the past.. China has made such a drastic leap n progress that has amazed the entire world. I do hope all of us must understand that This kind of success isn’t achieved overnight after being humiliated for lengthy period of time. That’s why US is trying to do everything in their power to hinder China’s Rising power. Why’s that so? Also I cannot understand why Western world feels so threatened by the Rise of China? I thought Westerners always talk about Human Rights, then why the western world needs to worry so much about Rising of China. Why suddenly the White Nations keep condemning China? All of a sudden, the term “Human Rights” has gone disappeared? No obligation should be expected of China to become a democratic nation. China has never intrude into any other nation’s internal political issues. Therefore please do not do this to China. Also Johnathan talked about Freedom of open comments of disagreement or dissatisfaction in publicity without fear of being jailed when Democracy is concerned. Excuse me… what happened to those African Americans in US, have they any rights to express their reasons in front of the police?

[@NightnDay402]

Nothing to hide. Westerners and Japanese, all they want to see is China Fall. They simply wants China Fall. They don’t wants to see one day Rules the world. Because this is from Racial Superiority Complex mentality. That’s why they can’t accept China Raising. This is nightmare for then. I see this kind of debate many times. Not like Prof. J Martin , he is very fare and pure western research Scholar without bias. Mr.Johnson Mirky is still staying with his own Ideology and old Brain.

[@bojoondong7911]

@@NightnDay402 agree in full. 😄🙏

[@Whitfield369]

I was a fervent protestor during the Tiananmen Square, in the U.S. Only now I found many other side of the story, that I was ever aware of. I now understand there were a lot of riots during that time not by the students not the other factions in the society, including the violence against the soldiers. I just watched the part of the video of the "tank man" who was just led away by other citizens and was never arrested or killed. Furthermore, with Russia as an example, had the students won there probably no more China as a country.

[@robertmiller2173]

Of course there would have been a China, just not one that would have been a Communist China; probably a China more like Taiwan but with an economy trying to catch up.

[@Whitfield369]

@@robertmiller2173 If you understand a bit more on Chinese history, then you see it can easily become fragmented with countless war lords. When there was no external influence China will eventually consolidate to one empire, thanks to the Chinese characters (written language). But since modern time, especially the 20th century, you can be rest assured that all these war lords will be infiltrated by different foreign interests. There was the real possibility that there would be no China, without the powerful central government in control. I just cannot believe all these Xinjiang human right, Hong Kong freedom, Taiwan interest, Tibet independent issues raised by the West are truly due to their concerns for the people there. There are so many more places much worse yet they have to pick just China for all these accusations.

[@wulung5943]

The tanks were leaving the square when the tank man blocked them. It was shown on CNN news

[@robertmiller2173]

I think there will always be a China, I hope so at least. But a Different China, sort of a mixture of Hong Kong, China and Taiwan. A more open China, a China that is still proud but proud about the right things to be proud about if you follow me.

[@Whitfield369]

@@robertmiller2173 I don't know how much you truly know about Hong Kong, or Taiwan, or China. I assume what you referred to is a more Western form of open society. I used to believe that. But reading Chinese history, seeing how Hong Kong and Taiwan are like, I am not convinced anymore. I don't know if you understand Mandarin. If so you will have a better understanding.

[@frankfeng936]

Anson makes a point as valid as a growing up adolescent arguing on own liberty his/her parents. Martin, on the contrary, states a view as wise as a matured man retrospecting on his all past experience.

[@ptassets]

Anson Chan and immediate family members speak fluent English. How is that 2 millions protesters' cannot write a single protest card in English ? All are in Chinese characters. Americans and Brits love to come to help you fight China, but they dont know your demands...Stupid Idiots

[@jhhwanghwang888]

Democracy. From the PEOPLES. By the PEOPLES. For the PEOPLES. Where please? Not even in UK. THE Upper class and The Super Richest are in power especially in Law, Very Expensive Money is in power in the West. Hypocrisy and Pretenders. The Super Richest Are in Power in THE WEST

[@jifa17]

21:30, why did she even dare to mention the UK's rise? It was the blood of the slaves and people in the colonies that helped nurture the UK's prosperity. That's not something to brag about. There must be something very wrong when she used this as a positive example. Yes, technology played a role, but look at how competitive the UK in today's world, you will know what benefited the UK most.

[@blardymunggas6884]

Many westerners are harping about freedom of speech but do not realized they really don’t have one. A bad comment on yt is taken down all the time for example. The west don’t understand how the chinese view the ccp and why are platforms like FB or YT are banned. Most chinese view their ccp gov as their father or head of the family by heart due to recent successful track record. Regarding the ban of FB or YT, as I mentioned above, they can control what they want you to see which is dangerous for any country. No difference to why so many countries ban porns or etc. If a platform that can be used by the US to brainwash their people, why would any country allow it? Freedom comes with responsibility. Do you have the freedom to kill? Same thing

[@tyn6211]

Eric Li always does this thing where the counters Western criticism of China with actual facts about Western culture. One of my favorites was when he said that America has only had a "one person, one vote democracy" for sixty years (Civil Rights Act)

[@chamade166]

@@blardymunggas6884 A lot of words to say that China is a dictatorship. You have no idea what pluralism, democracy or freedom of speech are. It is jot the same as banning porn. 🤣

[@danielguo1033]

She is not only on Chinese government’s black list for banned to entry China but also was physical abused and publicly humiliated on the streets by people who pro-CCP, the reason she was abused was she had criticise Chinese government wrong doing. On the other hand, however Zhang weiwei are freely travelling to all western countries which he criticise about and without receiving any abuses and entry bans. So which one of their views are real and more represents justice and truth?🤔🤔🤔

[@freeplex589]

Stop talking rubbish

[@SuperGodblessyou]

🎉🎉10 years from now! I am watching this again 10 years later!

[@narayanam-di9bw]

Of late came to know about the channel. Very good current affairs of the world are being discussed at length. Very useful to know about the correct picture.

[@weiyilan3227]

Majority chinese people still thought Chinese political system was the best until the end of sino-Japan war in 1895. Then Chinese started to search a better political system. Constitutional monarchy failed, constitutional republic failed and then communism failed. The party is named as CCP doesn't mean it is a communist party, it just reflects its history and it is not the right time to change its name. Instead of purely replicating western political system, now Chinese prefer to looking more into our own history and culture. Chinese people need a government like a leader instead of a servant, and I suppose most westerners cannot understand it, however it can be reflected from Chinese family relations. I understand how hard it is for westerners to understand Chinese history and culture, cuz most of them just can't read Chinese. Only read second-hand materials can't help you to gain a full picture of China, really. China is far more diverse than any westerners could imagine and this made the rulers of Ming and Qing dynasty to mainly focus on stability instead of productivity which led to the backwardness of China.

[@user-vr8rf3qr2t]

同胞你好Your explanation is very good, but I think they do not understand us. becauseWestern are not us, they do not know our culture, it will not recognize our political system

[@eijikenji7149]

李逍遥 average westerner only try to understand china system from their understanding of their own western system. akin to trying to understand Buddhism from their point view of Christianity.

[@reichskebab1057]

well said. but some western ignorants will say u are used to be slave of the government. :D

[@geetarnut]

No country can live totally under a democratic system! It's impossible! The true nature of people is to be selfish, self-centered, greedy and immoral! Communism is only a name that was used to describe the attitude NECESSARY to overcome the selfish, excessive, democratic harm! Just look at the USA now!!! We are in the grips of sexual perversion, violent media and music, abortions by the millions, dependency on pills, for happiness and survival! But,, in China,, they are absolutely in a much better condition, overall!!! Fact!!! I've been to China twice, for a month at a time,, and I never felt safer, happier, and even lost some weight, not that I am overweight, but ate healthier than I could in the states! I love my home town, but,, sadly,, sex, violence, greed, and indifference are what runs the country now! Be honest with yourselves,, America needs some strong changes in order to survive!

[@reichskebab1057]

Sonny Cannon i always think this kind of debate is meaningless. cos the cold war is over. fighting each other in the name of each others' ideology is stupid and hypocritical. they are both good ideas. and ppl who founded them intended to make life better. but when politician take over. some of them did well like in US, UK, Germany etc. but there are still plenty examples failed and are failing right now as well. karl max did not tell how to build up government and run economy in reality, he did not say it should look like ussr or china either. every country is facing their own problems which need to be dealt with unique methods. anyway it is always good to stop fighting in the name of ideology. just sit down and look at each other and self. if someone else has something worthy learning then u take it and apply it in ur own country in ur own way. just like china did 30 years before, it make economy reform and began to build market economy. but the government still make some regulation and general direction and offer some huge state investment. but sadly the mind cold war is still going. us keeps bashing china in the name of democracy and human rights even using some stupid monk like dalai lama, it seems china did not say anything similar in case of snowden and assange. still dalai lama is not comparable to snowden and assange. he is really just a silly monk.

[@kanzteo]

Its ironic that it takes a foreigner to understand China better than a chinese like Anson. Martin was furious about the nonsense Anson sprout. Utmost respect for Martin and Weiwei. They are so objective and rational in their analysis based on facts.

[@LIDYAEIL]

Teo Kanz anson has neither lived in the mainland nor the west, so many of her viewpoints are based on rumours and 2nd hand information.

[@vivien622]

Martin got quite worked up it was funny to see. Anson was just sprouting lots of heresay and the facts of her own reality. Glad martin came back and countered all her points with facts and real figures. Now i'm curious on what his original speech was going to be haha.

[@maggietu4859]

There is a say in china one monk fetch a pile of water two monk carry a pile of water three monk no water.

[@siriwanpoltong9621]

Anson is a chinese who was breed in a 7million population post british colony chinese city. Besides her life experience as a hongkong chinese, she didnt study china as much as martin.

[@wilftan2571]

Anson you talk through your ass hole. Why dont you lead for democracy while you were in there. Why Now ? You confirm A Traitor A Bitch If I May Address You.

[@hassanabdulahi4705]

Why is no one talking about the fact that Anson Chan was from a wealthy family from Shanghai and her grandfather was a Kuomintang General, and how she and her family fled mainland to Hong Kong because their side lost the civil war. This isn't a debate this is just her spousing her ideology, nothing researched or prepared just emotions.

[@profdrsiva]

Par excellent 👍 symposium,very thought provoking talk s.

[@AprilsExit]

Ms. Chan is a representative of HK but not China. I'm sorry to say that but the truth is she dose not respect people from mainland and she does not know us at all. Facing so much negative news in EU about China, I once asked my grandparents if they are happy with the government. The answer was absolutely Yes! My grandma was even crying for that as she can live without starvation and having a good life. Whenever someone said You don't have democracy! You are under suppression!... I'm very much annoyed! If so, how can I stand here and talk to you about all the issues!?..Just drop a visit to China! It's a thriving country and it'll be prosperous in its own way: remarkably and peacefully!!

[@user-dp9go8do9u]

you are Stupid. you should cry for me. Anson Chan is *evil* and it is stated in the Council of Foreign Relations CFR.ORG, that the best option for China is to elect Anson Chan as Chief executive of HK.

[@AprilsExit]

I no longer care. Just do not reply me in the future...Please.

[@eijikenji7149]

漢武神 she cant become hk governor despite she is pro british and think that herself as white lady.

[@waifaipatricklam3625]

eiji kenji Ms. Anson Chan does not represent Hong Kong. Just another Colonial educated ( trained!! ) civil servant.

[@squamish4244]

The United States and the West in general fear the rise of China because white people have been on top for 500 years. Even during the Cold War it was white people vs. white people. It's a little like how China fears the rise of India now - another gigantic nation that could ally with its enemies and threaten it. I agree that the fears about China are overblown. Nobody wants a war, everyone wants prosperity. However, I DO think that mainland China could have avoided 30 years of horror, including starvation, and been even farther ahead now if Chiang Kai-Shek had won the civil war. He would have started with capitalist reforms right away, in alliance with the United States and not against it for 30 years like Mao was.

[@mreverbel]

I find it ironical that Anson Chan, when answering to the question of Hong Kong's non-democratic status during British colonial rule by stating that she was chosen on her qualifications and merits, was actually validating the CCPs form of government. The CCPs method of choosing statesmen is structurally complex and based on objective factors, such as economic growth of cities, provinces, etc... (hence why they focus on it so much). It is definitely not a process under which some compulsive lier who filed for bankruptcy multiple times and raped numerous women would succeed in becoming President. Now his government is responsible for the numerous deaths of COVID-19 that the US is going to have, and answers with modern piracy, stealing medical equipment bought by other countries. Anson Chan's talk made my stomach turn. I found it dishonest, in that it did not approach anything realistic and just attempted to convey as universal truths ideas that are specific to (some) westerners. It's vague and demagogic. And last but not least: That that one woman at the end "spoke on behalf of the entire room" that the debate had been won, without even hearing the opinions of everyone else (let's remember that democracy means choice of all, not of the majority) and is applauded, shows that the British have a very opportunistic understanding of the ideas of democracy. Hell... history shows that.

[@lilychen5143]

Have a look at the video called "Is China an alternative to Western democracy?". Zhang Weiwei predicted that if American did not reform its political system, they would have a president worse than George W Bush. He was right.

[@lisashung9442]

The answer to her behaviour is simple: she is hypocritical!!! The so-called western democracy is hypocritical!!! And double standards. When George W bush sent the army to invade iraq and killed almost the population of the whole country, there was never any democratic elements inside out.........

[@tonetan2367]

Yep, she won the debate by the vote from the westerns in the room, but like weiwei saying: the facts will telling what is truth. like 30 past years facts does.

[@davedeng2295]

@@lilychen5143 LOL, and we get to see it again this year! Hell yeah, biggest show of 2020! Let's rock in the wave of identity politics!

[@winchesterlyon]

In my view, she contradicted herself with almost every new sentence she spoke. "It is not sustainable how their approach to the economy..." "I agree China will be the largest economy by 2030..." "It is not sustainable..." It also amazes me that after that very old man claimed that China is jailing people for things they say, but what kind of government would do that and NOT jail people for "taking back their lands", as he claimed later? Also, I really wish someone challenged him on his claim about Tiananmen Square as well as Tibet. There are western journalists who were there for the protests that published the same report as what he was claiming the Chinese were "brainwashed" into believing about what happened. As for Tibet. He said that every Chinese should be ashamed. Tibet was a Feudal region. The people were serfs who had NO rights. The ones selected to work for the monasteries were slaves. Their women were forced into sexual relationships by the "lords"... In fact, the Dalai Lama was a very recent role, despite the western media making it seem like a centuries-old tradition. The lords are the ones with direct influence over the kid selected to become the Dalai Lama, which they use to their benefit. While the Dalai Lama does live like a king, he has no real power. Not to mention that when China took Tibet, they offered the lords the region to continue ruling over, under the "one China, Two System" policy but they decided to side with the US/CIA instead, fearing that China will take their power someday. The CIA took Dalai Lama loyalists to the US, in North Carolina, by the CIA to be trained in guerilla warfare (what we call "terrorism" today). That group carried out many acts of terrorism against the former serfs in Tibet that were liberated by the PLA. Finally. I know this debate was at least 9 years ago. I would certainly love to see that Hong Kong woman's face on how wrong she was about China's development. Also, we all now know that the NED/CIA has been funding the opposition and separatist groups in Hong Kong from before that time. It wouldn't surprise me if she was one of those involved in those groups and their events.

[@paliaha706]

A bullet train network, no guns, universal health care, free education versus the ability to criticise the government? I'll take the trains, safety, health & education.

[@orchidoutdoor648]

1:23:00 As a Chinese youth, I have a lot of respect to those young people on the Tiananmen Square in 1989, I truely believe that they want this country to get better, but also I'm glad they didn't success, I have no idea what China could be, or our life could be today if they successed, and also Deng Xiaoping is very much respected in China, he is the one who shaped the morden China today, not those idealist youth, also I had been in Lasha for 7 months in 2005, can visit Tibet easily nowdays, I believe most Tibetan have enjoyed a better life, normal people are not so interested in politics as we are on youtube, they are more concern about the living standard.

[@user-vr6io5xb9e]

Your lives could have been like opium days under the British rule

[@joycem5967]

Because in the past 70 years, most people with political interests or involvement were killed or silenced. The average Chinese people experienced horrific systematic behavior controlling and brainwashing.

[@orchidoutdoor648]

@@joycem5967 Funny

[@shuyazhang8354]

Too many mistakes in the Hong Kong lady’s speech

[@vivien622]

too many mistakes in the americans speech too.

[@dshiu89]

Hong kong ppl have no nationsl identity nor do they have a political view or experience with it. For 155 years they never had democracy, it was only when the handover did the brits loosen up on them. This was so to make it hard for China to handle.

[@TheJoineryCo.]

Bullshit. You are a communist and a liar. She did a great job.

[@harryfeng7231]

@@dshiu89 just because hong kong didn't have democracy for 155 years doesn't mean they shouldn't get it now. You are making the same type of arguments that the likes of Yuan shikai made in the early 20th century, saying that China should not be a republic because it has already been ruled by emperors

[@stevene.cummer1576]

@@TheJoineryCo. You have fallen into the whirlpool of ideology. Besides calling them communists, a word most feared and disgusted by all westerners, what else can you say?

[@tonalddrump5699]

i didn't believe this kind of perspective until 1 months ago when i saw what happened in hongkong. if people are way too huge and many of them aren't smart enough, the democracy is a tool to disturb a society which was stable, safe and rich.

[@bingwang4569]

that's why the virus are coming as they can not be silenced!

[@user-oy7gf7ob7k]

that's called popularsm, if not ochlocracy...

[@henrytoledo4103]

Hong Kong has been Safe, Stable, and Rich someting to be envied by the entire world. The reason things have been chaotic lately is the CCPs doing. When i hear that the authoritative rule is the correct system for the Chinese people is that the Chinese people are like children who must be told what to think and believe like this lady says

[@SignificantPressure100]

@@henrytoledo4103 I agree, jesus you're the only reasonable person I've seen in this comment section, almost all people here praise dictatorship

[@arkoraa]

@@henrytoledo4103 Chinese people are not as brainwashed as you think. They see many problems with CCP, but believe that the pros outweigh the cons. About the issue of HK: the reason why HK is in chaos is because of violent protests by (mostly) native students in HK, not CCP. They were literally setting people on fire.

[@pingan3406]

As a Chinese American who is in China now for a visit, I am listening to this debate through vpn, otherwise I won’t be able to access KZbin. I think for a person who has never lived a live of individual freedom and personal privacy in their whole life, a good economic living is more important than anything else. But once one has experienced a free and fear-free living, the individual freedom is equally important as the economic wellness, if not more important.

[@Olcool]

Even America is censoring information, blocking Chinese apps like Tik tok and Huawei etc, its not different from what China is doing yet you call that American democracy superior

[@bull7173]

从来没有过个人自由个人隐私…我想知道什么程度的自由和隐私才是您口中的真正的自由？完全我行我素吗？那吸毒和贩毒在美国就不应该犯法，毕竟每个人都有完全的自由，凭什么要政府来帮我界定？我承认中国的自由程度不及美国，但是完全没有自由？

[@PhoonBucgeneMY]

​@@bull7173 加拿大吸毒好像是合法化了。

[@smling11]

Who won the argument is pointless. Who can bring the food to the table is the only point that matters. By all account, judging at this time, China not following anyone doctrine and not having a fixed doctrine is the right doctrine. On another hand, liberalism has evolved into a 1-god religion in the US world. All the academics are conditioned to worship and to be fearful of the 1-god.

[@muhanmudinvande9404]

Martin and Wei Wei has my vote.

[@dmarion8004]

Trust! Is a wish to wish back upon ourselves.

[@superpooper_2030]

Vote of ISIS?

[@orangekeita]

@@superpooper_2030 On what basis did you make that comment? US has created ISIS indirectly by starting the civil war of Syria to try screwing Russia. I guess US has shot a bullet into its own foot that's for sure.

[@kakakeda23]

@Manna Tech t

[@tanchenghuat2056]

Martin was in Tien An Men in 1989. No other comments

[@edward9012]

Facts: 1. In China today, you don't get sent to jail saying stuff even as a university professor in a class. Recently I heard an elaborate, detailed description and comment about what happened in Tian'anmen Square in 1989 in a lecture. I'm in a university in Beijing. Nothing happened to my teacher, and this wasn't the first time he'd said something like this. 2. To many, the Communist Party is famous for its propaganda, but inside the Party, if you've ever participated in an internal seminar, you'll know how the Party members criticize everything about the Party. There are many truly concerned thinkers in the Party, who are bringing the Party ahead.

[@waikeetan2130]

Edward 1

[@VoteLaborOut]

Good to know Edward

[@yanciwang1566]

Agreed

[@neekeyNi]

@Ron Lim any article references?

[@KJ-wf1xz]

It’s 2021. Watching this debate is amazing. Looking forward to watch is again on 2031. I would say as a Chinese, Looking back 10 years, huge positive changes happened. Very optimistic for the next 10 years.

[@ricotheman8139]

Wow! 9 years later, Martin’s voice is still sound.

[@reezy69]

In America, you can change political parties but you can't change policies. In China, you cannot change the party but you can change policies. - Eric X. Li

[@michaelwumol]

So what. either way, we will vote the com party. they are the best opt. And we r trust Xi,N we r proud of having him as our leader

[@huapengsui939]

@@michaelwumol 建议你先好好理解这句话，也建议你看看Eric Li的视频。

[@michaelwumol]

@@huapengsui939 有推荐吗？麻烦发个链接

[@huapengsui939]

@@michaelwumol kzbin.info/aero/PLtRl9z3wAYMjAC7yHGWKHhbiPH4vHsXYx KZbin搜Eric Li，很容易就出来啊

[@michaelwumol]

@@huapengsui939 Great speech! Thank you!

[@jordanfeng8766]

Anson speaks greatly but useless! For China, first to deal with reduction poverty, then social progress, then government transition... Everyone knows Democracy is beautiful, but it is not a master key and that is why you are not leader and you never suffer starvations

[@greaterbayareahero1401]

Anson is a selfish leader and does not help the poor in reality. Strip her of her wealth and see if she still stands for liberal democracy. As one says what good if you have access to go to Ritz if you cannot afford high tea there?

[@peterlloyd4447]

Thank you. This was a tough topic to decide a vote for any 1 angle, not so much because of how the candidates spoke, or even because of what arguments/stats/concerns/solutions or opinions they brought to the table, but because at times I couldn't properly listen as I was sidetracked by my own passions and search for metaphors, or to look inside myself and my country's way of life, but because I felt that the question wasn't really of the utmost importance. That seemed to be (to me anyhow), a concern that ranked lower on the priorities of the people involved. As a wise older lady friend of mine once shared with me, "communication is the key". I am not convinced that in every circumstance, at any given time, a label to categorize a group of people is important. It may act as an easier way to determine the team that is together for whatever the agenda, however the label can seemingly decieve, especially if the body/party/group have an agenda that differs from the label put on it. The agenda is sometimes judged by the name that represents it and vise versa. My understanding of communism for example, is different today, as opposed to last week's understanding. So I think that because we trust more often than not in our systems and governing bodies overall, we simplify the search for description because the "titles" tell us enough about the story. There's so much time spent needlessly on the finer details of many indiscretions, it is however more fair and a sign of willingness to understand and accept. If this characteristic or personality trait for example, were a tool required for repair and was used as a weopon, could that have massive devastating affects on a person or relationship in your opinion? I believe that it undoubtedly frustrates, hurts and angers me, It mentally does damage to me and it tells me that the person using the tools that way needs them taken off of them until they are able to use them correctly. Anybody doing the dirty work for them, should be denied right to use them also and well, we can let those people determine or imagine for now, the outcome themselves. I watched a programme once in relation to our borders here and the storyteller was one from a perceived threat of terrorism. He mentioned that if the doors are left open, then that was enough of an invite to come through it. I appreciated what he taught me with his honest statement and ask for people to first reframe from the depths of every detail inititially and to, whilst looking inside their own house, ask themselves if there were a threat along your street, have you left the door unattended and open? Subtitles are a great go to for a detailed description of specific topics inside of a bigger picture, like the title of "threat", where time to defend is far lesser and therefore, if in hindsight there was need for concern or not, you can quickly ensure you attend to the door. I sometimes need to remind myself that my trust in the format or layout of a story quite often leads me to overlook the details that matter. We really shouldn't support any deception or more importantly sharers of stories that are deceitful, especially if the picture they paint is bias and focused on areas more favorable for the narrative that suits an agenda of their own.

[@arthurriaf8052]

Over the last 70 years ( historically a short moment in time), the view Chinese people have can be one of two different views of China's history. One is nostalgic with ancient glorious past, savage, filled with conflict, and divided into epochs by dynasties. Noble inventions and mega construction projects interspersed conflicts, invasions, exploration, art, music! It is very powerful and mostly historical and true. Then we come to the people living today that only know the ccp's long march glory and splendor version! I have no idea how many Chinese citizens died during that historical period, wars both internal and external Must have taken millions, maybe 10s of! Since the ccp's capture of the Chinese nation 70 years ago, more than 40 million Chinese people have been killed by incredibly incompetent governance. This is current history. This is true today! The 98 million ccp core supporters can't allow the Chinese populace to realize there is a hidden truth to the apparently prosperous time. It's an illusion, and the actual growth of Xi's last 15 years is taking the country in a direction that has changed the world's view of China 🇨🇳 and if that continues, the current prosperous conditions are reversing. Between the different problems, Xi is living in interesting times! 😏

[@lizgichora6472]

Excellent debate! Thank you.

[@yandyo]

And I feel sad for a small group of Hongkong people who have got the Stockholm Syndrome and are eager to show loyalties to their British master. The British colonists never gave Hongkong people democracy and they dared not speak a word of it and just showed their obedience over 100 years. After returning to their motherland and ending the humiliating colonisation period of time, they just felt superior to ordinary Chinese because they were proud that they were once the servants of the Great Britain. What an irony. Rather than feeling proud of their homeland growing stronger and more powerful and getting real benefits from it, they would pursue the recognition from the west. Western democracy is not the optimal system and every country should find the way that suits them the best based on different cultural and historical backgrounds.

[@jaymuzquiz2942]

You wouldn't know what a Fucking master is, even if one Bitch slapped you with an article 51 condemning you to a working party in a brigade at a reeducation camp. Then again your more than likely a party member who sent hundreds to reeducation camps aren't you! Comrade!

[@bobbarkeriii2597]

I feel sorry for you for accepting rule under a dictatorship and living in fear of the Chinese Communist Party.

[@vincenttheo8841]

@@bobbarkeriii2597 You are laughable, man... I hope you will travel to China one day and see for your own sake. In your mind, the Chinese are brainwashed and are living in fear. This, while comfortable to believe in for the west, is unfortunately not true. But oh well, you've made up your mind.

[@bobbarkeriii2597]

@@vincenttheo8841 Your laugh is rather high-pitched; the laugh of a nervous man. You know that your fellow citizens are spying on you, and you on them, because that's how it is when you live in an authoritarian state with no rule of law. Have a nice day, Theo.

[@bobbarkeriii2597]

@@vincenttheo8841 Yes, the U.S. military did terrible things in the Middle East. I agree with you. However, after 9/11, none of the five million Muslims in the USA was put into "internment camps" like the Uighers have suffered in your dictatorial state, which does not have rule of law.

[@cadhlaohanlon4443]

there's no debate, Weiwei and martin killed it in every perspective possible. You have my vote gentlemen.

[@jinzenan1068]

@Eugene Wong You can easily notice that the audience was pre-determined with certain opinions. I have to say anything relating to the politics will be just a show for both sides. At least, in 2012, they can hold this show in front of these European audiences when the anti-China atmosphere was high enough. If this would be held again today, emmmm, actually there is no need for this debate today.

[@wbj4714]

@Eugene Wong lol, the vote by the neighborhood about the debate of if ur dad cooks or ur mom..

[@HauntedXXXPancake]

The irony of proudly posting your vote against voting ...

[@fairjusticeforall8417]

www.britannica.com/biography/Sun-Yat-sen

[@dialatedmcd]

You don’t have a say, your voice doesn’t matter, why even speak up Cadillac?

[@Po-village-chief]

what is relevant about this discussion today (2021 going into 2022) is that more and more facts are surfacing to show western liberal democracy is wrong for the west itself with its inability to govern, or to deliver common prosperity to a majority of its population, and to contrain increasing polarity and inequality. democracy in its aspiration is indeed an ideal, in practice it's a lot of work and needs the participation of an engaged and thoughful constituents. The reality is too few people actually have the intellectual and educational capacity to weigh in on the important issues and make a balanced and nuianced decisions. Instead, they are naturally attracted to identify politics and vote to further their own cause without regard to the broader society impact. A top down governance delivered by competent experienced leader who balance all view points and interests is much more effective, same as how corporations manage themselves - which is probably the most efficient and effective organizational form to date.

[@antondubiel7239]

Except corporations are pursuing profit, while political leadership aims at social well being, vastly different, more important, and empirically ascertainable.

[@Accomplished_Loans]

Good job, here is your $0.5

[@kaimayterry8978]

I just found this talk! Been wishing there’s a talk like this for a long time. There is NO one size fits all form of governance. Wish America can be more tolerant and accepting of how other countries organize their societies. It is NOT just HOW a country is governed it is the OUTCOME that counts eventually. Hopefully we all agree the wellbeing of the largest number of citizens should be a desirable outcome.

[@charleshowie2074]

The NSDAP would agree with you.

[@milutzuk]

​ @Charles Howie "The NSDAP would agree with you." Yep! Also Stalin, Pol Pot, or my former "beloved leader" (iubitul conducător), Ceaușescu, would agree with that. CCP Chairman Mao Zedong, a very intelligent and charismatic Chinese ruler (not), put into early graves 3.5% of China's population with his Great Leap Forward. Does that mean the rest of the population got a slice of well-being? No, they starved too, just not to death. You see, KaiMay Terry, when you think in terms of "wellbeing of the largest number of citizens" your individual self becomes statistics unless you're at the top of the food chain. There is a reason most sane people don't like dictatorships, even if we're talking about the "dictatorship of the proletariat". Because that proletariat would automatically organize in a hierarchy having one rule: the top dog is the meanest dog. It doesn't matter if the top dog would send his pups to universities, nobody wants to lose his privileges, so the social system remains and it doesn't become a true meritocracy.

[@scottmcmaster4927]

Authoritarianism and dictatorship rests in suppression of open criticism and thus suppresses the very mechanism that knowledge is gained via conjecture and falsification. Authoritarianism is thus objectively bad and will fail to solve the inevitable problems of the future for which it suppressed the means of generating the knowledge to solve via the suppression of free speech and open criticism.

[@J0s5p8]

Ah yes! No one size fits all. Don't compare anywhere. Be naive, because then no one will call you names. Maybe you need to be a bit more skeptical and willing to be called names . Taiwan, a Chinese polity is richer , more democratic and more given to rule of law than any CITY in China, in spite of it's mixed-bag past and the fact that the mainland has been threatening them for 70 years.. So was Hong Kong. So is Singapore. All without forced "reeducation" of minorities. The reality for say Tibet is that while the land has resources and political / military importance, its people and their don't actually count . 7 million Tibetans versus 1400 million everywhere else. Just a few eggs to crack "for the wellbeing of the largest number of citizens" . Do you know what "cracking a few eggs to make an omelette argument" , actually looked like in Stalin's Ukraine? In Mao's China? But don't judge . Look the other way and don't have an opinion.

[@charlesscott4722]

@@J0s5p8 India, Philippines, South Africa, Kenya, Dominican Republic, Ukraine, Moldova etc. all of them are way poorer than China in pretty much every measure. Wanna guess all these countries have in common? They're all democratic states. What you and I just did is called nitpicking, we can all nitpick only countries that support our opinions, but that won't change the fact that those opinions are load of crap

[@jemirren492]

Given the fact that most people in the audience are western people, martin and wei wei can still got so many support, I think they already win.

[@enkii82]

@Ron Lim US Trump in 2019 situation = INEQUALITY, INJUSTICE, NEPOTISM, ELITISM, LEGITIMATIZED SELF-ENTITLEMENTS, CORRUPTION IN HIGH PLACES, ABUSE OF MONEY (PROSPERITY), POWERS, POLITICS. !

[@dshiu89]

@Ron Lim I thought yall democratic

[@doryfishie2]

@@dshiu89 Singapore is technically a democracy but 99% of the opposition parties are complete trash. Vote for the party where most of the country's elites gravitate towards, or vote for the populist parties run by hysterical loud-mouthed morons. Obvious choice.

[@doryfishie2]

@Ron Lim "Public service has become a profession" - Yes, like with every fucking developed country including America. Corruption in high places could potentially occur everywhere in the world, including the Western powers with democratic processes. There's just no evidence as yet. There's also no evidence for corruption among the Singapore government. So why the fuck would you claim corruption in Singapore when there is no evidence, when you could just as easily claim the same with every fucking country in the world? It makes no sense. You're similar to the moron Roy Ngerng who makes a lot of claims and has nothing to back up his claims. Inequality - Name one developed country that doesn't have inequality. Even the openly communist state N Korea has inequality. Injustice - Every fucking country has some measure of that. Nepotism - Every fucking country has some measure of that. Elitism - Every fucking country. In fact, why is elitism bad? If you're good and skilled at what you do, you are successful. If you are garbage, you are not successful. That's it. That's literally all it takes to succeed in Singapore. Work hard and don't be shit. Perhaps you would like to be reborn as a Malay with bumiputera privileges and be born in Malaysia, because you can probably get by being lazy and a shitter. Legitimatized self-entitlements - What the fuck does that even mean? Legalized self-entitlement? By whom? Good job, you used a 5 syllable word, you must feel so intelligent now. Abuse of money - ??? Are you claiming that the government is stealing from the people? If you are, doesn't that already come under "corruption"? You write like some college kid trying to hit your word quota for your assignment. Powers - ??? Meritocracy has led to powers? Politics - ??? Meritocracy has led to politics? Are you a fucking retard? Maybe not, but you are clearly a bottom feeder. No money no talk - Yes, in every fucking country in the world including Singapore. Unless you live in a piece of shit country where you trade with daughters and camels. Then it's no camels no talk.

[@liweijiang4653]

I feel disguiting about freedom fighter like Anson Chan, they only bark allday about so called human right. but do nothing helpful on development of country and solving the poverty. And she forgets also, before Hongkong back to China ,she was second-class citizen in Hongkong..

[@patrickkoh1056]

Under her, a lot lives in cages... they still live in cages.

[@junsu21]

nonsense. you mainland Chinese all sound the same. All you can do is call HK people colonials and you have NO IDEA of the freedoms that existed under colonial era HK. If life in HK wasn't so great under the British, Chinese from Maoist China wouldn't have swam their in the thousands to escape the starvation and deprivations under the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Hong Kong people were NOT second class citizens under the British. You need to read some history books not published by the Chinese Communist Party.

[@ashaj7095]

@@junsu21 Were HK'ers allowed to work in upper management positions during the British?

[@mxcmfl]

junsu21 Were HK ppl allowed to protest and to work as government officials during the colonial times?

[@haraldkoch4446]

Give a speech on what you want China to be, not what you don't want it to be.

[@Whitfield369]

I agree Anson Chan gave the best speech in democracy, in theory and the same trite talking points. I was very much enamored by the same ideal. But if we want to pick examples about bad things from each side there are plenty to go around. The bottom line is, what is really good for the people? Both democracy and autocracy (or meritocracy as they would rather call) have winners and losers in the respective societies. I am now totally disgusted by ideology. If the people, large portion of the citizens have their lives improved, especially from abject poverty, I don't know why those who are enjoying prosperity have so much to say about how that country should run.

[@bull7173]

称中国为贤能政治是没错的，毕竟他们的党有一亿人，而且通常只有具备能力或者成绩或者美好品德的人才能加入。一党专政是有缺陷，但内部同样有激烈派系竞争，不是大多数西方民众想象的古代皇帝的模式。独裁统治的利益应该是朝鲜，家族统治，无论继任者的才能如何。

[@PhoonBucgeneMY]

​@@bull7173古代王朝也是士大夫与皇帝共治天下的。尤其是宋朝时候。我们其实都走过这段路，现在不过重新再来

[@bull7173]

@@PhoonBucgeneMY 任何国家都是一个精英群体（资本集团也是精英）在治国，而不可能只是一个人，但区别在于最高者的力量有多大以及这个最高力量如何传承。可能我个人还是比较理想主义的，比较关心大多数底层人民的生活和利益，我觉得对于中国这种超大型国家（甚至是世界上唯二这么大的）的政治体制，还真就得寄托于贤能政治，而不能让资本集团掌控实际权力。贤能政治确实太理想化，但是西方的资本主义则是太过现实化（充分利用了人的私欲和利益体间的斗争制衡），现实到不会给任何理想主义者（这里指的是执政者照顾占大多数的底层人的利益）实现抱负的机会。还有很多人会拿一些高福利的小国家来当例子，说它们是西式政治体制下的成功，我深入思考过这个问题，总结来说就是想实现这种近似的社会主义，需要人均经济水平、整体国民教育程度和政治体制这三者的一个平衡。西式全民选举制其实是资本主义下的必然产物，如果没有大的外部矛盾来转移注意（当然它可以不断地找），我认为像美国这样的大型国家最后必然会因不可调和的内部矛盾而混乱甚至解体。它也许可以实现小国的近似社会主义（这些很小的资本主义国家之所以能实现，是上面所说的三个条件达到了平衡，而它们的政治体制能长期work的关键是有来自美国这种超级霸权的外部监督下的全民选举制度，而美国的选举制度本质其实就是资本主义下多个超大的资本利益集团共同协商下提出的博弈游戏），也可以实现美国这种大国的经济发达，但它必然无法实现我希望的中国这种超大型国家的社会主义化。总之，上面那三个条件很难达到平衡，对于中国这种超大型国家而言更是难到几乎不可能。理想很丰满，现实很骨感。中国这么多人，总还是有很多不愿放弃这种理想的人，只不过现行制度下也很难出头，对于中国的未来，我也很迷茫。

[@edwachen2703]

Anson Chan argued that the income disparity is increasing between country side and urban areas. China has been aware of this, so recently China has increased the land supply in under-developed areas, but not urban areas. The purpose is to move the people back to rural areas that are undergoing massive development. She also argued that China's growth would decline because it was not able to create local consumption. She was extremely shortsighted, because China has already announced that future economic growth would be led by local consumption. She saw the problems (like many others could), but didn't expect that China could solve the problems. On the other hand, Martin, in another speech in 2012 addressing an audience's question on what China should deal with aging population, predicted that China would give up the one child policy. This has really happened recently. So, in terms of politics, who is an expert and who is a newbie is very clear.

[@greaterbayareahero1401]

No offense, Anson is clearly out of touch with reality or from another world. Sometimes I wonder if she just only really like the sound of her own voice, this midget banana. She strikes me as one of these typical blood sucking employees whose only justification to be hired in their job is to sit in these management meetings to pick holes in peoples ideas without really contributing at all to the solution. As the Chinese says "Cheat rice to eat":) She models her physical outlook on Maggie Thatcher with that 6 inch afro but obviously lack the substance of her character. You can just say she got lucky living of someone else's money to allow her to waffle on as though she is an intellect. The only way she can earn my respect is if she gets of her 3200 feet pedestal and help pick up some of the bricks thrown by a HK protestor. And only if she is hit by a brick will I shed a few tears...maybe but it will be crocodiles ones, nevertheless I can never compete with her fakeness no matter how hard I try. BTW I feel I am already very restrained in my comments;) Peace to all and may God have mercy on this little Chihuahua.

[@simontay1187]

A case of China's 'country mouse & city mouse.' China's urbanised city has attracted these people from the village to seek a better livelihood but only suffer more than they expected.

[@supahsmashbro]

@@greaterbayareahero1401 She likes to bash China because she knows the white people she seeks validation from love hearing it and might even invite her to a potluck she wouldn't normally be invited to if she brought their favorite dumplings and entertained them with self deprecating Asian jokes.

[@qindu4120]

@@supahsmashbro How a pathetic figure such as her becomes arrogant in front fellow Chinese is a mystery to me.

[@supahsmashbro]

@@qindu4120 there's a bunch of Asians, not just Chinese, that are embarrassed of their own peoples and culture, not knowing anything about it. They might "kind of" like it as an exotic feature to seek attention from racist white people. The more anglicized, westernized these Asian diaspora become, the more self hating and naive about the world they become. All facts

[@sayeemkhan9788]

Wei Wei was amazing here. Anson Chan was one annoying women, not humble at all. As someone pointed anson chan and her team was using fear to manipulate the crowd rather than facts

[@mcgdoc9546]

Sayeem Khan You are blinded by the socialist communist propaganda machine. Ask Weiwei about the massacre of the Tianmen Square , June 4th, 1989

[@yiprogrammer]

@@mcgdoc9546 Why don't you ask yourself, who told you there is a massacre, do they provide you any evidents? Then think about who are the blinded one.

[@donalddrunk5523]

@@mcgdoc9546 go ask the US for the answer.

[@izanabdullah4001]

Democracy of the West had done more harms than good. Freedom or too much of it, is harmful. China system of governance is doing pretty well. The achievements in everything is beyond compare. It is time the Western must learn culture and virtues from China of what it takes to live like a human being.

[@canseal1039]

This debate was conducted 10 years ago. One decade has gone by, perhaps this panel should meet once again to debate on this issue. It would be interesting to see if there are any change of mindset.

[@canseal1039]

To add to the above, we should have Eric Li or George Galloway or Kishore Mahbubani in direct dialogue with Anson and her anti-China partner to debate on this issue.

[@aliceaquac8219]

Martin Jacques is so right about westerners can't understand Chinese value and opinions, because they always judging base on their western core value and experience. They need to realise China has such a long history, which brings totally different core value compare to west. There is no right or wrong, but people need to respect different way of living and social choices. Has western Liberal Democracy worked for all the wester countries or worked at all? It is still debatable. Democracy shouldn't have only 1 method, the western method. China can also implementing democracy base on their own core value and culture, and it takes time. 200 years ago western countries knocked off Barries of Asia with firepowers and opium. Pillage enormous amount of wealth and resources to support their own industrial revolution and growth. Now, it seems they want to bring China down once again by using something called "liberal democracy".

[@pauloferreira7543]

the Chinese revolution that overthrow the imperial china, was made by comunism values?

[@fongkt8769]

1a

[@rb26benjamin8]

That's the idea a rising China is a no no to the west led hegemonic world order something that has worked they want to remove shows where they realy stands

[@spideruuu]

Well, now in 2016, let's see if Anson Chan was right about the Middle East. Also, Hong Kong in the 70's and 80's had less democracy under British rule; where was Ms Chan during that period?

[@punishersnoopy]

2019: Bunch of commies on this channel? She was right about the Arab Spring and middle east.

[@francislee2910]

Yes where was Martin Lee during that period?

[@venmis137]

Pretty sure Britain was threatened by China to not give HK democracy.

[@chocolateamv917]

@@venmis137 That's not even the case, the british only attempted to give hker democracy LITERALLY about few years before handing back it to china. British have a century of giving it democracy but no, so stop speaking for them.

[@qindu4120]

@@venmis137 Brits had a track record of leaving a mess behind before leaving its colonies.

[@ashikhodaili4436]

Dynamic Debate simply I hope and pray that one Day there must be one World Government for World PEACE. Amen

[@ZakaWarraich]

Who talked about the chinese political meritocracy first; Zhang Weiwei or Daniel A. Bell? Any informed opinion

[@reginaldmorton2162]

As a Black American I'm currently in debt wt student loans, my job isn't paying me enough to buy a home, my rent is over 3/4 of months pay and I don't have enough money saved for emergency. My Chinese counter part, has a home and savings, a job wt raising pay, enough time for Vacation and a government that will move mountains to keep him happy. Ive never had a vacation and if I question my government they attempt to avoid the citizens. One man has all the freedoms, the other has an idea of freedom.

[@adonizi]

Most of China lives in 3rd world conditions. GDP is high, but income per citizen is comparable to many African countries. In fact many African countries have better income per citizen than China. You couldnt be more wrong.

[@adonizi]

Has all the freedoms? You cant be serious.

[@steelydan1242]

@@adonizi Have you been to China? How wrong could you be when Chinese government takes care of it's people with affordable medical and social programs. Of course there are still remote areas with poor people. However these people are not homeless or staving because they are assisted by local government. I advise you to visit China to see the incredible transformation of cities and countryside. Unless you're too poor and only rely on American propaganda, no one can help you to raise your awareness on the real China experience. Perhaps you should check out foreign visitors blog on KZbin to get an unbiased opinion.

[@TinaRuan]

@@adonizi “扶贫” get out of poverty is always the theme of our government, they are keep doing it,and did very well.

[@averayugen7802]

Does he think its ok to beat stray dogs to death for restaurant food?

[@angepower2386]

Martin was spot on in his speech! Kudos to him for understanding the history n culture of China!

[@edydon]

Martin is an apologist for the organ-stealing CCP. If they're genuinely popular - let them have an election.

[@vivien622]

Martin understood China better than Anson Chan does.

[@ethanwang1095]

If anything the video shows how exactly western democracy won’t work period. All I see is people voting out of fear and moral hijacking. This only works on the poorly informed population which UK and US have a lot. China should continue focusing on lifting people out of illiteracy, so that they can think independently under pressure. West does not want you to have democracy and progress, they want you to have populism and chaos.

[@edydon]

"poorly informed population" - the CCP killed more Chinese than the Japanese ever did. You mainland Chinese are brainwashed automatons.

[@ethanwang1095]

edydon So what? those “murders” are either 90 years old or dead or in jail. Where were you when my family was robbed by the communists of land and wealth, made to kneel down and humiliated tortured in front of the whole village everyday? Where were you? We were the victims of the dark ages, but we fought through and barely survived. And you use our own misfortune to judge us? Now you want us to disrupt our own country just when things are finally looking up? As you enjoy the grace of fortune from your western master? Do you have any shame? Look at you lot, all you do is repeating what the west fantasised about the extreme communism, we fucking lived through it. Our hate for separatists such as yourself is so deep your brainwashed mind can’t even begin to comprehend. But I guarantee, your life is gonna be hell very soon for what you have done to my country :)

[@TinTin-fi9sv]

A great debate … no matter which side you are on, two questions from a young Chinese audience at the end of debate at 1:37:30 concluded it well.

[@MashabaZA]

Listening to views you don't agree with, even actively listening for similarities is a great exercise .

[@casocom]

In USA, there are two parties: Apple Party and Banana Party. In China, there is one main party: Fruits Party. In USA, the President makes decisions; but in China, leadership members in a team make decisions by vote. Which system is democracy???

[@euso2008]

Chineseboy lele Yes, but you see, in the USA you can vote on who will deceive you. Democracy!

[@yuehuaxu6709]

+Chineseboy lele Actually,as a chinese,I don't know how the Chinese leadership in a team make decisions! Can u tell me how they make it?

[@casocom]

Yuehua Xu ask your parents if they are Chinese

[@wenbinxu1951]

+Chineseboy lele I'm Chinese, born and raised. I can assure you that you are really delusional. US's democracy has many broken aspects, but the Leninist political system imposed to China by CCP is definitely a problem.

[@wenbinxu1951]

+Armindo Ribeiro If you had grown up in China like me, you'll prefer the deceiving democracy in U.S. At least, you are not required to take brainwash classes (CCP call it "politics class") from middle school to PhD.

[@8xster8]

Wei Wei is there to discuss ideas, Anson is there to moral grandstand against a fictional cartoon character using corporate euphemisms

[@avecmoi9429]

They all "moralise." They just have different values.

[@missourichifilayyy4311]

Ya honestly they r all intelligent scholars with different ideologies and they all know what they r doing.

[@missourichifilayyy4311]

​@@alexkhoo7828 The so-called "failure" of US democracy does not justify the failure of democracy. The real democracy has always been linked to equal access to knowledge and information, as well as a fair system of health-care and voting. The US has failed it in many ways. But that doesn't mean democracy is a bad idea. As a Chinese citizen, I definitely hope my voice or other people's voices to be heard by the government, while voting is an excellent way to execute it. The financial prosperity of some big cities and their citizens is one of the phases towards democracy. Still, it can't hide other burdens existing within the society which are preventing the mobility of the social classes.

[@user-wl9gv9eg8s]

@@missourichifilayyy4311 It is not right that "voting is an excellent way to execute it". It is probably true for an election among ten people, but i think it may be wrong for a country with such a large population like china. Also, you did actually vote, but the result of voting may not be good. Most people argue that we can easily revote for a new president in western countries, but does it naturally come out with a better president? Doubt it. I mean the right to vote is good, but it does not naturally lead to good results.

[@8xster8]

@@missourichifilayyy4311 not quiet. Martin and Weiwei are scholars. Weiwei was also a translator and diplomat. Anson by contrast was an unelected autocrat who ruled second in command by hand selection from the queen to run the imperialist government in Hong Kong.

[@gcliu3315]

My opinion : western democracy was really not suit to China.

[@user-hr6tb9fh8k]

COVID shows it does not suit to mankind

[@kaimayterry8978]

Anson Chan somehow believed and equated western democracy with equality, human dignity for all! Those are just ideals rarely achieved by governments most of the time thru modern history.

[@alanwang4961]

Other things aside, the tone of Anson Chan discomforts me, full of comtempt. This is a panel discussion, not a persecution.

[@leolee1959]

That is why the Arabs keep women OUT of their politics. The Anson Chans of this world think they are so smart; they are in contempt of anyone who is less articulated.

[@yili2272]

Leo Mike

[@jasminechen5409]

exactly!

[@duriddao5482]

Now you know she is a Chinese traitor, she has worked with American gov and British government for years! That is why she would say it, why she is so happy to say that China won't growth! So clear now

[@r.a.8618]

I have the same feeling. She looked down on everyone. She was Chinese herself but she had white supremacy in mind. Typical banana.

[@siliu5837]

hope one day this kind of debate can be held or at least boardcasted in China. When that day comes, the motion they discussed here is maybe already exist no more.

[@catherinegu9852]

Did anyone spot Eric Li sitting in the audience? This guy is amazing

[@user-lv1qu3vj7j]

Martin did his research not Anson

[@zhidapang8825]

This video already published 7 years ago and Anson Chan she is still alive .. I think God wanted her to live long enough to see how wrong and prejudices she was ..

[@xiangcheng4566]

Zhida Pang She never cares about that part. She has UK passport and HK identity which mean everything to her already.

[@budiherlambang7434]

Anson speeches a full of hatred. HK already bankrupted without mainland China support.

[@SpenserRoger]

@@budiherlambang7434 without mainland support? What's that? By "support" do you mean when Chinese mainland tourists leave big-stinking-scatological 'gifts' anywhere or everywhere in public...? Or perhaps you mean when the CCP conspires, undermines, subverts, obfuscates, corrupts, cheats, extorts, hacks, spies, assassinates, represses, lies, propagandizes, deceives, tortures, thieves, triad-eds(lol), street brawls, bribes, censors, poisons, burns, threatens, and organ harvests it's way to "support" Hong Kong?

[@HauntedXXXPancake]

Yeah, How dare she think the Chinese People should be able to choose who runs their Country ? Disgusting !

[@kazechong2852]

@@HauntedXXXPancake Yeah, look at US! They chose a clown, and get a circus! I want a circus!

[@jackholmes6877]

I can hear WeiWei fine, but it’s very funny to watch him continuously turn away from his mic

[@thebarehandsdoctor2769]

I just watching this in June 2022, a simple answer, is China is ancient civilization, always has been one voice in stead of many voices, this is the reason why China is growing so fast like no body's business, while the West democracy have many voices can't get anything done.

[@ez9671]

After watching this on April 22, 2020, I even more strongly believe western liberal democracy is not the right choice for China and Chinese people. Simple because the Chinese society is fundamentally different from the West in many ways. 8 years after this debate, my experience tells me the West still knows little about China. -- From a Chinese living in Canada for 7 years who obtained his Master's degree from a Canadian university and a Bachelor's degree from a Chinese university.

[@kyler1297]

true in certain ways and culture, but taiwan is a prime example of Chinese having some form of democracy due to civil war that has seperate in to known as (2 china). Taiwan started as a empty land from refugee of shanghai that run from civil war and are citizen of the original political party before communist party and then taiwan became a stable economical hub.

[@kelvinketer789]

It’s not only China, but the rest of the world

[@howluk2901]

Taiwan enjoyed most of her economic growth under authoritarian rule of kuomingtang. It was 4 years of stagnation under governor Tsai.

[@louistan3731]

@@kyler1297 sadly... Their political representative are just as corrupt or inept like the ones in the states. In fact, their middle class income didn't really grow for the past couple of years.

[@hanklin2291]

@@louistan3731 you know some of the politicians are corrupted becuz, like US, Taiwan has freedom of speech, which is something deprived from people of china

[@jansonblock5237]

chan said she wants china economic grow equelly shared????? hong kong people would eager to see that in their 30 square meter home

[@onecitizen9830]

I agree with both you and Anson Chan.

[@andreyzhang4677]

Housing prices in Hong Kong are much more expensive than those in second-tier cities in China. If they feel that 30 square meters are very crowded, they can sell this 30-square-meter house. If you go to the corresponding area in a second-tier city in China, you may be able to replace it with a 90-square-meter house. Hong Kong’s economic development is one of the top cities in China. If economic growth is shared equally, Hong Kong people living in a 30-square-meter house may have to share 15 square meters. Anson Chen will probably share 95% of his fortune.

[@evfreshair7312]

Excellent discussion 👍👍

[@CanDoSo_org]

Excellent debate!

[@quadroeffects9316]

Just to quickly point out two counter points to Anson Chan's arguments: 1. Western imperialists have indeed overthrown authoritarian dictators around the world under the cover of democracy and freedom. She forgot to mention that they were replaced by more brutal, US-aligned dictators. She also forgot to mention all those democratic governments that her beloved freedom fighters toppled to install their pet regimes. 2. Unlike the Western imperialists who are committing genocides in the Middle East and Latin America to rob their resources, China doesn't need to spend a ton of money on military to practice diplomacy and friendship.

[@JDmix123]

But the Chinese do spend a ton of money on there military and also practice very unethical practice of targeting poor countries with loan/debt scams

[@quadroeffects9316]

@@JDmix123 China's defense budget is less than 1/3 of the US, and the US has invaded China, raped its women, killed its people, and burned down its palace. Much of China's defense budget is to protect itself from US and NATO aggression. You are shaming the victim here.

[@JDmix123]

@@quadroeffects9316 the Chinese budget is ever growing and is the second largest in the world easily I might add. You can accept these facts or not. China rapes and kills its own people so IF America was doing that I’m sure the CCP wouldn’t care it gives them more organs to harvest

[@quadroeffects9316]

@@JDmix123 Why do you think China is increasing it’s defense budget? Does it have anything to do with the US’ increase of defense budget? Between the two, only one of them is bombing 7 countries. I’d love to see some evidence of your claim about China doing all those things to their own people. Maybe you confused China with India. How does China target poor countries with debt scam? Are you stop peddling the debt trap diplomacy nonsense? Do you even know how much those poor countries benefited from China’s low to no interest loans which are often forgiven? For example, China builds water treatment plants destroyed by the US bombings in Iraq. Without them, Iraqis had to rely on one water treatment plant which was falling apart. Unlike the Western regimes that only build primitive infrastructure to extract resources from those countries with high interest loans, which often result in austerities, China modernizes their permanent infrastructure to make them self sufficient, and no longer serve as vassal states to the West. This is why the West are indoctrinating people like to believe that China is bad for helping those countries get out of poverty.

[@JDmix123]

@@quadroeffects9316 because they want to expand the military power control and influence amongst the world and especially there Asian neighbors.

[@alecwk]

If China adopts liberal democracy, China will be INDIA 2.

[@karan200590]

plus it will break apart due to wars. and tibet will be free

[@michealyu5810]

Karan Kumbhare bullshit

[@karan200590]

Bob Yin J hey sorry if hurt your sentiments, but chinese communist party itself says this. plus history of china certifies my comment.

[@DiscipleOfChristDV]

Karan Kumbhare Tibet and Xinjiang maybe, but the core of China will probably stay together.

[@wadewang4059]

If the larger amount of citizens of Tibet wanna be free, them why not? Countries established to serve people, if people have no human rights in their own country, then why should they continually follow their government?

[@g.msheikh1172]

I thought there exisist adequate participatory mechanisms in place at lower levels of governance in china. Am i wrong?

[@escapewithyou2075]

1:37:46 After 9 years, China had really spoke for themselves.

[@xiaoyuvax]

It's interesting to view this debate 7 years later after it was delivered.

[@Surstromming22]

56:20 man says "i don't think an authoritarian regime such as China is fundamentally ill equipped to prevent a repetition of such a catastrophe" 2020: COVID-19. *looks at the so called western liberal democracies. lol

[@davedeng2295]

"Western liberal democracies" are more prepared for, not combating the pandemic, but distracting the general public with name-callings and politicizing COVID. Western politicians: "Let's all blame China so we don't have to address the real issue here!" Ain't that right?

[@harryfeng7231]

Its nicknamed Wuhan virus for a reason . Are Taiwan and New Zealand, which have lower cases than China, considered as those western liberal democracies that you are referring to?

[@yubraajsubedi113]

@@harryfeng7231 There is something called population & land mass. Take population by land mass and calculate it. By the way it's not Wuhan it's Illuminati(NWO)virus. And for your kind information I'm not 50 cent army,I dislike China for several reasons but let's talk practically.

[@trolllovindaddy]

Update: it's from a Chinese lab

[@andreyzhang4677]

@@trolllovindaddy Unfounded accusations are called slanders

[@justinfan658]

Reviewing the debate 10 years’ later, the verdict is in

[@andrewfeng6138]

One of the audience asked a very interesting question about how the US is being governed by the 1% and not for and by the people while China has lifted 800 million people out of poverty. It's a critical question against the so-called western democracy that Anson and Jonathan were promoting, but neither of them answered this question. Says something really.

[@seanpan5231]

Deng's reform allowed part of the population to get rich first and it succeeded beyond expectation. President Xi's Chinese dreams is moving the nation to the goal of all Chinese can share the accumulated wealth of the nation and with that also come greater freedom. The REPUBLIC is moving forward on the right track.

[@kimho5828]

obviously, Weiwei and Martin won the debate

[@thevanchung7568]

Martin is a wise man with enriched understanding of history. I hope everyone should listen to him the our world can live harmony together.

[@johnxie9837]

Reason is that the westerns don't know Chinese peope and they take communist party governing too seriously.

[@junsu21]

@@johnxie9837 what does "take communist party governing too seriously" even mean?

[@mindovomatter5181]

I don’t think China is taking recommendations from western and European countries on what to do anymore.

[@borisguo1762]

what Chinese are thinking are much longer and more.

[@sunvaj6754]

"Democracy would be wrong for China." Democracy is not the best system in the West either.

[@ql1038]

Jonathan Mirsky was disgusting. He did not know anything. But Anson's behaviour revealed he was her idol.

[@benbentan4005]

He lies in a debate.. he can not search Taiwan or dalailama on internet? Is he too old to use internet?

[@tstoon6254]

ANSON CHAN DOES NOT KNOW HISTORY

[@fangjia6531]

She does what her masters told to her.

[@simontay1187]

On the contrary, Hong Kong has played a very important economic part for China. The political system is totally different from China. When China is extremely poor with gross poverty and limited foods are issued by 'vouchers' per family. Hence, Communism must be the answer for China.

[@mozuzeng6121]

she is even not a Chinese

[@yitchanwan7265]

She is self centred, power hungry..when you are poor and hungry you don’t care about freedom of speech or universal suffrage you just want food on the table and a roof above your head... China has delivered that... lifted millions and millions of people out of poverty and that matters!! Anson is just a dog led by the nose...

[@fooyd9810]

She knows nothing apart from condemning China

[@candymuncher8155]

Leadership vs. Showmanship. End of argument.

[@mikecamacho1934]

China's success is directly attributable to the US's outsourcing of manufacturing. The Chinese model is about emulating or copying success. The US's model is about innovation and invention. The collective mindset has it's advantages. but it also has it's disadvantages. It stagnates in repetition. This static mindset is what held China back for 100 years. Until it finally opened it's eyes and swallowed it's pride to open itself to outside ideas. China seems to be regressing back into that mindset.

[@user-qg6fs5wd3n]

I like the way they talk about taiwan and Hong Kong as a model of success, that's just so hilarious. If they can make Singapore a example, I think that would be more convincing, but they won't, cause the west society hates the Singapore government too.

[@leah6102]

Yes, listen to what the late Minister Mentor LKY said at a forum in 1992 at HKU...and right in the face of Chris Patten!

[@rosalinechan5299]

Well, Anson’s had read the political ground correctly against Martin’s view that indeed Hong Kong is still waiting for the universal suffrage to materialize ! It’s now 2019 two years after 2017 !

[@shmeckle666]

You think the west/western society hates Singapore? Why?

[@shmeckle666]

Lets not forget that Taiwan and South Korea were far from “liberal democratic” States upon their creation and decades following. They only started to implement and make “liberal democratic” institutional changes once their economies were strong and sufficient enough and provided overwhelming economic and national prosperity. People don’t give a shit, and political change cannot occur anywhere until there is economic power and prosperity within a State and in the eyes of the people.

[@zhugeliang007]

LKY would have stayed within Malaysia if Singapore was not kicked out by the Melayu dominated federation. The success of Singapore is thanks to the hard work and hard discipline. You think discipline can be achieved without strong fist government ? Singapore looks like a democracy liberal country, but the fact is it's not.

[@thomasmcyeungk67]

This woman is full of nonsense!

[@HannanZhang]

hahaha, but HongKong people really buy that shit

[@thomasmcyeungk67]

Not me!

[@HannanZhang]

Mc Yeung it is ok. everyone has their own views. as long as they dont start a chaos, it is fine to be a dissent

[@jasminechen5409]

you bet!

[@liweijiang4653]

she knows nothing about developing economy, but repeat the so called political correctness..She may forget, that she is second level people before 1997

[@shine9204]

I agreed with Ansen Chan that the how we look at the democraty that is human dignity, free press, rights to participate, freedom of religion all this are common for humanity, nothing to do with population or Chinese style, culture, these were the excuses to keep the one party dictatorship regime.

[@vicvic7152]

Totally, political regime and culture are essentially two separate questions. China shares the same cultural roots with Taiwan, who has also been through dictatorship and authoritarian governance. This does not stop it from pursuing democracy. In the post covid era and after the implementation of those draconian zero-covid policies, so many Chinese have either emigrated or planning to emigrate in the near future. In China we call it "voting with your feet". Basically if you had no say in whatsoever, you can at least quit. That's what they have been doing.

[@terry1708]

Zhang weiwei and Martin are looking forward, while the other two are looing backwards.

[@vicoob9983]

Donald trump says HI~ and welcome to Britain where its up to the majority to decide what we should do about the country future, and then immediately regret it.