What should happen to abusers if we don't lock them up? with Professor Leigh Goodmark

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[@ForHarriet619]

Patrons saw this video a week ago. Patreon.com/ForHarriet

[@lisah8438]

If we don't have the police, who will save kidnapping victims. You better come up with something that would replace it. I am putting the responsibility on you my dear. If theoretically the police gets abolished and people are still getting murdered and kidnapped and killed. Police abolitionist will have to take responsibility. I am putting the heavy load on you. YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO COME UP WITH IT. I will not play kumbaya with a psychopath, rapist, murderer etc. I think abusers can change but it depends on how bad the abuser is. Police abolitionist are all talk and no action. Lets just let the poor children get abused by their parents. At least keep restraining orders, probation/parole rehabilitation centers for abusers, or anything. Why must black women give up their safety for black men to feel protected? I only care about the victims, not the perpetrator. I am down for violent people to be in a rehabilitation center. All their lives. Forever. Abuser can be at a center too but they can get out once they are treated but I would love to still have personal protection order with them. Or a personal protection program when the abuser does not know where I live. You have to think about stalkers. This is a serious issue.

[@azac9627]

@@lisah8438 Took until 49:23 to get to the REAL ANSWER... "yOu DoN't gEt tO WaNt rEtRibUtiOn"... WTF let the rapist, murderers, pedos free... Just a few kumbaya sessions and back out into the world again How about i keep my retribution RIGHT TO JUSTICE - ----- and using an example you used of the abuse husband and the wife for her deluded reasons wants to stay in the relationship her fair dust justice is already possible... i.e. dont press charges and hire a therapist ----- and that same example if the wife wants that abuser to locked up in jail and (raped every night allegedly) far far away so she can find a real man elsewhere as her retribution and you are going to tell her "yOu DoN't gEt tO WaNt rEtRibUtiOn", he is going to sing kumbaya for 6 months What should happen to abusers if we don't lock them up? ----- The answer is stoned to death, but that is sooo 1400s.... so we will continue locking them up thank you, however if you want you abuser free DONT REPORT IT AT YOUR PERIL... 49:23 told me you want everyone at their peril by NOT EVEN OFFERING beautiful retribution... WELL I AM CLINGING TO MY RETRIBUTION AND MY DEFINITION OF JUSTICE IS AS WIDE AS CAN BE... Next...

[@engineeringbookisha]

Ugh. Can we talk about how GOOD Kim is at interviews. It's so pleasent to watch

[@ThemisThoth]

Engineering Bookisha 🥰yep

[@laughingshaman1]

The police were required to arrest because, in the past, police would come out, talk to the abuser and leave. The victim continues to be abused and eventually stops calling for help.

[@bkjane]

Wow. I’m a woman that has cut off relationships with friends that have stayed in abusive relationships because it was illogical from my perspective that any woman would tolerate abuse. From this conversation I realize I didn’t ask the right questions to understand or provide support without judgment. This dialogue has been aha moment for me. This is such great dialogue. As humans we should continuously learn and do work to be better and help others. Thanks for providing content that promotes a deeper level of thinking.

[@bethanmurray8154]

Erwin Lii you can help them by staying in contact checking up on them ect basically just being a friend

[@margolane8529]

@Erwin Lii Exactly. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

[@Laviudanegra16]

Erwin Lii I agree. I lived next to a couple where there was DV, and for me it was traumatic having to listen to the violent fighting. So even if you aren’t involved the situation can effect the mental health of others around them, and sometimes you have to protect your energy and separate yourself from the situation.

[@elisealbro1361]

Erwin Lii this comment makes me feel like some of you didn’t really pay attention to the video. You are being deeply victim blaming. You’re calling victims toxic and/or co dependent. You’re also contrasting victims with the people you do associate with, implying that victims are not emancipated, independent, or self aware.

[@Laviudanegra16]

Erwin Lii as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.

[@Sandreline]

Hearing someone say "decriminalize domestic violence" knocked the wind out of me an made me feel physically uncomfortable, but you're one of the only youtubers I trust to approach a topic like this with the care it deserves.

[@bushybrovvs]

i agree. when she said that i was wondering if i heard that correctly.

[@Sandreline]

Wyatt Cenac did an episode on this that I had to turn off because it was so triggering for me. But I found your conversation very gentle and respectful. I really appreciate it.

[@wickedone5082]

Are you insane??

[@KayDejaVu]

I'm surprised Kim even bothered with her. Now on to trans stuff.

[@monicausher5441]

I would love to agree with this but as someone who took the redemption/counseling approach with someone who in turn almost killed me and to this day seven years later is obsessed with the idea of killing me although I opted for him to get counseling instead of jail bc he was an abused child... I find it hard to accept that everyone can change.. some people don’t and none of these frameworks offer a solution to what can be done with those who will never change and will continue creating victims. For me if we don’t want to house them we’ll have to settle for killing them.

[@chicquie5471]

I' m so sorry this happened to you! I hope you are safe now. I agree I don't think that everyone can and want to change.

[@KayDejaVu]

Amen

[@juliajordan5023]

This is such a good point. Some perpetrators won’t change immediately or even. For abusers who eventually change but take a really long time to change, they victimize more people before they eventually change. I feel like big picture if everyone was guaranteed free health care, food, housing, good education systems, minimum wage at like $30/hr or more, the 40 hour work week was reduced to like 20-30 hrs, cities were walkable, good and free public transportation, free and good child care, massive funding towards inner-community care and community organizations, and much much more (basically if society wasn’t so violent/oppressive and had lots of community interventions clubs/support groups/ect) I imagine that maybe a person who perpetuates violence would more quickly purpose change and redemption. BUT society is SO SO FAR AWAY from that. what do we do NOW to protect victims from abusers who aren’t gunna change. I really am curious about this because so many people need protection RIGHT NOW. The harm being done needs to stop immediately. I also think that the police and prisons are evil and I know that punishment is the least effective way to change someone’s behavior. and I believe that prison and police are violent/traumatic/punishment approaches. All that to say, what does IMMEDIATE harm reduction and protection look like that doesn’t use prison/police/more violence?

[@guessxwhoxitxis]

So would there be any difference in treatment between a man who beats his partner to death and a man who almost beats his partner to death? I really find it difficult to accept that someone who almost or does take his partner's life can walk away with no punitive measures taken against them in the least. I'm finding it hard to stomach that.

[@ThemisThoth]

Natalie Taylor same. I am not onboard and I want to be. I just cannot agree.

[@tishaweath8446]

Sure it will take time to figure out, we just know our current system is failing more than helping. No solutions are without repercussions. For the majority of ppl who have committed crimes it isn’t something that they have natural desire for but it is a bad decision made as a result of having bad options from which to choose. We just have to start from somewhere to begin change for the better.

[@lisah8438]

@@tishaweath8446 So men beat their wives are not because of their own actions but because of the system? Some men just like to beat up women or kill them. It is not always about options. Why do you think rich white men beat their wives Tisha. They also beat their wives. So what bad options do they have?

[@entertain7us148]

i think a lot of her points were fascinating and really delineated how the criminal justice system today is designed to treat violence with violence, which obviously doesn't work. however, i find myself still waiting for that 'oomf' moment, for that final nail to be hammered in - which is, what exactly do we do with those irredeemable, violent men? yes we can attempt structural change. we can intervene from an earlier stage. but there will always be those who slip through the cracks of those structures, and still end up killing or almost killing their partner. they need to be taken away. we shouldn't simply empathise with the victim who wants to keep their relationship intact - we need to get them to safety and see the perpetrator taken somewhere where they can't hurt anyone else. i'm not convinced that goodmark made a conclusive point resolving that key question. i really, really don't buy the argument that if someone wants their partner put away, it's only because they've been conditioned to only view justice in retributive terms. sometimes people are a genuine danger to society and you can't help or change them, and indeed they don't deserve our help. there are actually some people out there who are just pure scum. i don't want those people anywhere near my community or anyone else's community.

[@cabbage-soup]

perhaps resources used to place and to keep offenders in prison would be better utilized rebuilding and supporting the lives of their victims

[@user-rg7ih9rg5c]

The rehabilitation model assumes everyone wants to be rehabilitated. What if they don’t want be rehabilitated? Then what? What if abusers go to therapy but don’t want to open up to their therapist? Then what? Or what if they say things that the therapists wants to hear with no plans to actually change? All of these ideas sound great on paper but I’m not sure how effective it will be in practice.

[@edmondantes4338]

If someone CAN'T be rehabilitated then you can put them in prison, the latter simply shouldn't be the first (or second) option.

[@lunenoire7238]

@@edmondantes4338 that still doesn't adress her concerns. How do we estimate that someone is rahabilitable or no? And even if we come up with a protocol, that will always remain an estimation. And between, the first and the second (or third) option, what happens? Another victim? Im not sure what the best solution is, because in each ways I see big issues.

[@nevadalotto560]

After being kidnapped drugged and almost stabbed to death by a partner is why I would have to disagree

[@ForHarriet619]

I've been kidnapped and raped by a former partner. In case it's not clear, many prison abolitionists have also been victims of violence.

[@ThemisThoth]

For Harriet omg. Wait what? I am so sorry. I know you don’t need that from me but here it is still. Also to you Nevada, I am so sorry.

[@ForHarriet619]

Absolutely we should have these conversations, but I do reject the framing of prison abolition as being something that only people who haven’t experienced tremendous harm endorse. That’s untrue. But I apologize if my comment looks like an attempt to shut down conversation. That’s inappropriate of me.

[@laughingshaman1]

For Harriet The idea of diminishing the police and prison is new to me, and I don’t have a problem with nonviolent offenders being decriminalized. The violent offenders of all kinds present a different problem. None of the abolitionists I’ve heard speak ever directly address ways to fix violent offenders. What would be the fix for a person who abuses one partner after another. What does the mental health fix look like for the ones with those issues?

[@nevadalotto560]

@@ForHarriet619 like there are malignant narcissist out there psychopaths and serial killers loving them won't make them not attack what is the alteenative

[@caseyw.6550]

My personal experience with intimate partner violence was DIRECTLY linked to my partner's drug abuse. It's stunning how many social problems can drastically be improved if people had more resources available to get sober. Locking up drug abusers does absolutely no good.

[@ThemisThoth]

Casey W. I feel this. Not sure I agree with it either.

[@victorialuxxe]

I agree. It’s sad that they are treated criminally vs medically

[@staciamj1]

Agree, we must look at this on a case by case basis.

[@coolcat6341]

People need to be a countable for thier actions,,, he knew drugs was causing violence but he didn't care enough..

[@caseyw.6550]

@@coolcat6341 Ok. That doesn't change the fact that there needs to be more resources available to help people when they decide they want help and want to change. It's a lot more complicated that just waking up and deciding you're going to suddenly do things drastically different. The reason most people become addicts in the first place is because they have trauma or mental health issues that they have no idea how to cope with.

[@rhythmictiger]

I wonder how many perpetrators of DV are willing to acknowledge they have a problem and take the steps to change? It might be more beneficial to help the victim work through their emotional trauma?there are cases where the violent partner goes through the motions of getting help but with no intention of changing.

[@TreniaP]

This is a lot to think about. I worked with survivors of domestic violence for years, and most of them just wanted the immediate violence to stop, not necessarily incarceration for their partner. So the question becomes what can the immediate response be instead of calling the police? That being said, the issue I have is getting community involved. In many cases, women who are abused get family members involved, only to go back to the partner over and over again, putting their family at risk. If you have community workers involved, how much will they get paid, and how will the interveners be kept safe? Of course many black women will fill these roles, putting us at risk again. When I worked with survivors, many of the advocates were threatened by husbands and violent boyfriends. If you want to prevent further violence, you have to stop kids from being exposed to it. So how will that happen? The other thing is this conversation shapes the issue of partner violence around people that are economically disadvantaged, but there are lots of women who aren't economically dependent on an abusive partner who are still abused and don't report. This conversation presented the same kinds of binaries it's pushing back on. The other thing is a lot of black women don't want the police called on their partners because black women are taught to put their needs and concerns last. If they think their man will get arrested, they'll put his safety and needs before her own. You can't build a model of protection without taking a close look at that.

[@ForHarriet619]

These are really great questions. Thank you for this post.

[@TreniaP]

@@ForHarriet619 Thanks for doing this interview.

[@guessxwhoxitxis]

I don't know how to feel about this. Personally, I feel that serial abusers cannot or are unwilling to change, and a lack of any punitive measures allows or even emboldens abusers to perpetrate more violence. Even if the person being abused loves the person and just wants them to change their behavior, I think the relationship is unequal and toxic, and in many cases that will not change. I think of people I know who loved their childhood abuser and although adult relationships are different I don't think victims of abuse have the clarity to see that staying with someone who is coercively controlling and abusing them might not be safe. I will have to read more but I'm really not sold.

[@kismet0819]

So, as a survivor of ACE and DV, I don’t agree that restorative justice can be helpful. The vast majority of abusers have problematic personality patterns and are not willing to change. Any attempt to rectify the situation just gives more supply to the abuser. That being said, as far as removing the “criminal justice” aspect and focusing on teaching children empathy as a preventative measure is of utmost importance.

[@MeleMelJ]

I’ve been learning about abolition for the past year or so, and as a survivor, this is one of the questions I’m still finding an answer to, so I’m very excited to get into this discussion

[@myal7532]

I think we need to provide more services to victims who repeatedly choose to stay. The economic entanglements aside, we need to really deal with the fact that so many women want to stay with their partner despite escalating violence. Professor Goodmark spoke about giving victims options and supporting their choice, but I think strengthening and expanding resources for counseling and therapy services for victims is necessary. I understand not taking the agency of the victims away, but women repeatedly going back to their abusers just does not sit well with me.

[@chikaka2012]

I agree. I feel like the cycle of psychological and physical abuse was completely neglected in this conversation. Instead of speaking with a privileged lawyer, I would like to see Kim interview a survivor who is working at the grassroots level with victims of DV or even abusers. I know a couple of excellent male counselors and authors who I have heard speak on the topic of dealing with abusers.

[@Sandreline]

I have a hard time with this conversation. I always will. But I have to ask myself "Do I want people punished, or do I want change?" Because I know punishment doesn't work. It just makes me feel better. For change to happen, we have to first acknowledge the systemic causes of violent behavior. As someone with ADHD that has severely impacted my life, I know that free will (as we conceptualize it in America) is a myth. No behavior exists in a vacuum. Not a single one. We are made up of out experiences, our environments, our brain chemistry, etc. Even knowing that, it is difficult for me to allow for that kind of grace in all behaviors, particularly when those behaviors are violent acts against women and femmes. I'm working on it. I don't know where to find the balance.

[@reboundingfromnarcissistic5386]

People need to understand that some people want to abuse and there are no limits to the damage they can do. We cannot pacify their behavior. We have to hold them accountable and call out evil for what it is. If my adopted mother did not die from cancer there is a possibility that she would have killed me. I was 10 and did not deserve the abuse she inflected on me. She dared me to call the police. Social workers would not have been equipped to deal with her and the community would have protected her.

[@chikaka2012]

As a survivor of DV, editor of a book about DV among Christian women, and co-leader of DV support groups, I feel I have to make a few points: 1) the community may not be responsible for separating an adult victim from an abuser but they are responsible for protecting the minor children, who are involved in the vast majority of DV cases; 2) the idea that DV is somehow linked to poverty is largely unsupported by research but has been pushed by privileged white academics since the 60s, which I believe, reflects racism or classicism (i.e., the idea that poor people are somehow inherently deficient). The fact is, like drug use, DV is about equally prevalent across different social classes and racial/ethnic groups. Police, however, are more likely to get involved in communities of color & poor communities. 3) In my experience, very few abused partners continue to want to stay with their abuser over time but may remain out of fear, shame, economic dependency, social isolation, & religious & social pressure. We need to address these issues before worrying about the reasons for abuse, which are more complex & difficult to address; 4) I agree that the majority of funds should go to evidence-based prevention programs but we still need to provide sufficient services to protect current victims & their children from abusers; 5) police likely are not the best people to intervene in most DV crises, but victims need to have someone to call who can arrive quickly, de-escalate, counsel on-site, get the victims to safety (with their consent if adults), and ensure the abuser is immediately evaluated, treated, & kept away from current & potential victims for a good period of time (in a large number of cases, permanently).

[@user-rg7ih9rg5c]

What deterrence do people have from committing violent crimes if all they’re gonna get is therapy? Some people don’t commit violent crimes because they don’t want to go to prison. Let’s be real, therapy isn’t a huge punishment. If people know that all they’re going to get is therapy and then they’ll be free to roam the streets again, what’s stopping them from murdering, raping, physically hitting someone, etc?

[@katefriend4085]

I've never heard of even a totally psychotic person not acting on violent impulses because they're afraid of going to prison. It's more human nature to believe you'll get away with your crimes and to take steps to hide your culpability. The idea that prison deters anyone from committing violent is so foreign to me that I almost can't believe you're serious.

[@mattmckinney9820]

@@katefriend4085 just because you havnt heard of it dosnt make it true first off, you can be psychotic and smart enuff to know you could be caught and not worth it. So yes it does help stop some people knowing that there is a chance they could loose their freedom for a impulsive act. The idea that you dont understand that fear prevents somone from doing somthing is frightening lol. Did your parents ever scold you for touching the stove top when you where a kid? they where using the fear to prevent you from possibly touching it when it was hot... did you listen and fear it long enuff to learn why they did that? or did you have to burn yourself to learn? it dosnt always work the same for everyone, but its the best solution we got atm

[@user-rg7ih9rg5c]

Kate Friend you know how many people get angry and want to kill someone? We’ve seen stories of people killing their spouses or the person they’ve cheated on them with. If there was no prison, I’m sure we’d see an increase in those cases.

[@chikaka2012]

In addition, the most dangerous abusers have narcissistic personality disorder and/or psychopathy and are able to fool most therapists and social workers.

[@greymatters7284]

I’m sorry but this is not a solution. This is a way too rosey view of abusers. My father has been in all kinds of therapy and anger management and he’s still abusive. Can’t change some people; they need to be in prison. I can’t say I’m for complete abolition.

[@WilliamsPinch]

Absolutely.

[@isaacroot5459]

What happens when he gets out of prison? Where does he go? Back to his wife, his girlfriend, his mom, grandma - prison is not sustainable. It’s a bad solution and a one dimensional way to address it

[@ThemisThoth]

Isaac Root then keep him in and try to fix him. Maybe the problem is that our prison system needs to be more rehabilitative.

[@KissMyBiscuits]

Themis & Thoth You are correct, prisons should focus more on rehabilitation. This is working in other countries, such as Germany.

[@mahoutsuguy863]

Agreed. Prison is where these people need to go. But that also means Prisons need to change as well, if we're all for people coming out better and changed and not just worse, or dead.

[@nevadalotto560]

The state looks like a good choice after your mother allowed you to be molested your entire childhood and what kept me quiet is my mother kept saying foster care is worse

[@SuburbanKween]

I'm so sorry that happened to you 😥

[@laughingshaman1]

I don’t know what happens with people like the person who abused you. And, I’m sorry to say, people like your mother. I’m sorry you were subjected to such abuse and I am glad that you are a survivor.

[@TechnicJunglist]

You are not alone in this struggle. 💗

[@nevadalotto560]

@@laughingshaman1 thank u so much for your kindness I am so use to people telling me to get over it stop living in the past so thank u so much I still believe they should put pedophiles and their accomplices in a mental hospital private island but they got rid of mental hospitals too

[@BrookeKnits]

Same sis. I'm sorry that was your experience. Knowing my mom saw signs and could have left before our abuse continued to escalate for 15 years makes me have zero sympathy or room for people to stay in abusive relationships. You don't have that right when children are involved.

[@Cozybelle30]

I don’t agree with the current system but I don't know that this is the solution. I'm currently working at a DV shelter and some of these abusers have no desire to be rehabilitated. We have had a woman who's throat had been slit and her entire body set on fire and she narrowly escaped. Another woman who's jaw is wired shut and she has to be on a liquid diet bc he tried to kill her. The overlap between dv, mental illness, poverty, and substance abuse (on both abuser and survivor side) is COMPLICATED. And yes,lots of women want to give their abusers a rehabilitation option but some are so scared shirtless that they hope like hell the abuser is locked up. Dv can be so much scarier than a lot of people even realize. I don't think being a lawyer gets you close enough to the situation.

[@DoorknobHead]

"...it's not an excuse, it's an explanation...." That, all by itself, was worth the price of admission. This is the first time I recall hearing of "Restorative justice". Great discussion/interview. Thanx

[@cv8499]

I do see the value in reforming those who commit violence. (Even when abusers are sent to prison, most are not sent there for the rest of their lives. They get out and abuse again. For those who can be restored, that seems like a worthwhile goal since they will reenter society at some point. They don't just disappear.) But I'd like to see more resources put into preventing violence. I forget where I saw this, but there was a program put into place in a country in Africa where the rate of rape was extremely high. It was common and seen by the males in that community as a legitimate response to a variety of situations. Instead of teaching girls how to avoid getting raped, they focused on teaching boys and young men not to rape--why it's wrong, how it affects women, how they should treat women, and better ways to respond to situations in which they would normally use violence. They found the percentage of rapes and assaults against women dropped dramatically. Also, we need to consider mental health. While a person under the influence of drugs or alcohol can get clean and hopefully change, studies have shown that's not true of pedophiles and serial rapists, for example. Some mental health issues can't be treated, and others can only be treated if the person commits to consistent medication and/or therapy. While I don't think prison is always the answer for someone with a mental illness who commits violence, in the absence of mental health facilities, what is the answer? As for those who've said they distanced themselves from or judged women who refused to leave abusive partners, keep in mind those women might feel like their lives would be in even more danger if they left. My own grandmother was murdered by her ex, as was my friend's mother. In each case, they'd left the men who eventually killed them. And when my other friend left her abusive husband and wanted to move out of state, the courts wouldn't let her because they shared a child and they awarded him partial custody. Leaving isn't a cure-all. So many structural changes need to happen to make leaving safe, accessible, and affordable.

[@nerdywolverine8640]

I 100% agree. I think we need to put a lot more work primarily into changing the systemic economic and cultural factors that lead to widespread abuse, and completely overhaul our mental health care systems and facilities to better rehabilitate and if necessary, detain people who perpetrate violence due to mental illness while still treating them humanely.

[@Sandreline]

I'd be curious so see your sources saying that pedophiles and rapists cannot be rehabilitated. From what I've seen, the main reason they fail in their rehabilitation is because of systemic and societal taboo associated with actually treating those problems.

[@Sandreline]

The issue is that these people don't spend their while lives in prison. So they need to be rehabilitated to prevent them from causing future harm. And if we prioritize rehabilitation, we can work on helping these people *before* they commit crimes. Which not only helps them, but their potential victims.

[@cv8499]

@@Sandreline That's what I said in my initial post. Rehabilitation and prevention should be the goals. But my point is that rehabilitation isn't always possible, so we need to grapple with what to do with people who cannot be rehabilitated.

[@Shegotthajuic3]

I’m gonna read the book, but I’ll be honest I’m not on board with this because yes, I’ve never experienced a world without police. I work in a Pediatric Intensive Care Unit and I’ve seen the 5 year olds with semen still in their mouth coming to be checked out by a sexual assault nurse and the 4 month old with 2 black eyes and a broken neck and rectal trauma and also had to be checked out with a sexual assault nurse. The 15 year old girl that committed suicide because she was touched and no one believed her. The 11 year old boy who was touched in a group home. They all make it to my unit and police/detectives come to interview ppl and take photos for court. I’ve had teenage gang bangers in my unit and ppl attempt to come to my unit to finish the job and we had to have 24/7 security and this is just in some small city in NC! I’ll be honest that I’m not on board with this let’s all be nice and hug method especially when kids are harmed. But again, I’m responding before watching and I plan to watch with a open mind and read the book.

[@coolcat6341]

I agree with you, we have to think about the victims first,, the pain the fear and the life that was lost.....

[@dog5221]

Hey! I do community work and harm prevention, and I'll say this. It is traumatic to do the work we're both doing. Those traumas never go away, and the feelings around those images will remain (maybe less painful with therapy but they never leave). What I've noticed, is no one showing up for survivors. I've had police say on the phone that tell us we will have 2 hours to gather belongings from an abusers home, only to show up and be told they have 10 minutes. I've had to show up with no weapons or way self defense to get loved ones from dangerous situations. I've had FBI agents tell someone that although there was ample evidence an assault occurred, the lack of visible "damage" or bruising, made it a he said she said. No amount of evidence will matter if carceral institutions constantly change the metric for believable assault. They won't so much as court order people accused to go to therapy or rehab after being accused. When reasonably even if it was a false accusation, therapy should be had to process those emotions and not become bias or undermine victims in the future. These institutions do not offer our communities safety, they offer a false sense of security. They don't de escalate, or provide security, or resources, and many don't even enforce the restraining orders they point too when they don't rehabilitate abusers and ignore their continued abusive behaviors. What's needed is robust, reliable social networks. Social workers who go through rigorous training and anti bias programs (ran by marginalized folks in the field), security guards and escorts with the same training, and child care workers with adept experience working with children with ACEs. It is possible, it is scary, and it is a LOT of trauma in the process. But if you're reading the book, please tell me what you thought, and I've got a lot of great recommendations for other media if you're still interested in hearing more about transformative/restorative justice.

[@Indiegirl007]

Can we not have punishment AND change?

[@sadenni]

That’s what I’m saying. Someone beating his wife and kids needs therapy AND they also need to be contained away from society until they are not a threat

[@visionsofablackherstorian]

Yes we can.

[@katiej8295]

This is the content I've been needing. I can't say I'm on board with abolition for everything. I hate the police but love the judiciary. I just always need to now exactly what activists want to happen with pedophiles, child rapists etc. I need answers backing up theoretical ideas. This helped somewhat. Only a little, although I appreciate perspectives. A bias I identified within myself watching this is I don't think abusers are worth helping, not worth a cent in trying to make them better. Maybe that's an outlier argument. I just don't care what happens to them & I don't want to help them. I would do anything for their victims. But I don't care to build up the self esteem of someone who is violent towards women. I want them off the planet. I live in a state that rarely incarcerates & I see murders happen because the serial rapist or pedophile graduated to murder on top of that. I see lives that could have been saved if they hadn't gone for self reported rehabilitation.

[@Ushankhuru]

A good place to start work on that bias is rethinking how you understand violence. You hate the violence carried out by people who abuse their partners. What they talk about in this interview are the kinds of systemic violence that create situations where that abuse happens. A lot of us can't afford to leave those people behind in the struggle for liberation. There's a bunch of black feminist work on caring and supporting from afar that's helpful in this discussion (can't remember exactly how it's phrased)

[@rosedalinevaletine6931]

Outlier, I think not. I don’t think we should be trying to help murders, molesters, rapists, and so many other criminals that have committed heinous crimes. Defund and reform the system, yes, but abolish it? Absolute not. I do not believe in nor support it and never will. Period.

[@lyndseybelle]

I agree. Very difficult subject that I can get on board with until it comes to things regarding children. I can understand deescalation tactics, reform in struggling communities, mental health & trauma help, etc. shows that it works statistically for adult domestic abusers. But I don’t see the same statistics when it comes to pedophiles, those who kill children, sex traffickers, etc. There’s no change for those people. It’s a sad reality and that’s why I agree with reform but all across the board abolition is extremely hard to swallow for me. The only reason I am safe from the men who took advantage of me as a child is because of prison. Without that, what then? Will I be always terrified for my life? It’s such a hard conversation and I don’t think mentally I am healed enough to truly be “on board”. I don’t think any abusers deserve anything in this world. Nothing. But I continue to fight for victims, because I see how the system fails them every single day. I want victims to have a better justice system that cares for them & takes our pain seriously.

[@caseyw.6550]

@@rosedalinevaletine6931 Dont you think helping those people helps everyone??? It's about helping those people so we can PREVENT them from committing these crimes. Like this lady pointed out, our current system does nothing until a crime has already occurred. By then it is too late for many victims.

[@terencebarnes7393]

Casey W. Depending on the crime locking up is the only way. This should be reserved for premeditated mxrders and sex offenders on case by bases. The straight abolishment of any from prison is not a good idea. I better would be make drugs legal. You get rid of underground market which will reduce crime greatly. Put money towards good rehabs look at places like Sweden.

[@Graid]

The idea of decriminalising domestic violence is extremely irresponsible and dangerous. The police ideally in my view should separate abusers and their victims after every domestic violence call out because: 1) It gives time to cool off 2) It lets the abuser sober up 3) It reminds the abuser of the legal consequences there OUGHT to be to violently threatening/hurting another person and most importantly 4) It makes it less likely the abuse victim gets murdered the second the police leave, which legitimately happens, which is why they arrest when called out! Every abuse victim needs to know that there's that potential lifeline of safety to separate them, temporarily or perhaps for longer, from the person who is terrorising them. Every CHILD in a violent family situation should know that there's a line that if the abuser crosses, they can- at least in theory- be put away for. You take away that and there's not even a scrap of safety left for abuse victims and more importantly, the children that are dependent on the consequences of their abusive relationships. Basically the only way they- and, more importantly, any dependent children- are safely getting out of that is if they can safely separate them for long enough, which can't be done if domestic violence isn't even ILLEGAL. I do not believe we should be looking to keep people in relationships with dangerously violent and abusive partners. Moreover, there is very little evidence of cases of abusers being successfully rehabilitated, particularly while still in relationships, and even if they were interested in trying, the fact that their victims are not objectively capable of necessarily recognising what is healthy or not makes it dangerous, especially for children trapped in abusive relationships.

[@iheartlol90]

Very good points. I was a victim of dv by my brother. The police came and never questioned me separately from him. My brother is a narc and lied about my mental health to make me look bad. The police ended up arresting only me. I think the laws around do are the problem. Abuse is so much more than physical or direct and police need to investigate all the different facets of it to effectively handle it. But I also see how punishment and jail are not fixing abusers. Some abusers will never change because they have personally disorders and deep seeded beliefs about themselves and treatment of people. It’s a complicated issue.

[@visionsofablackherstorian]

Punishment and rehabilitation can coexist. Some criminals can be rehabilitated and some deserve punishment because they will never be rehabilitated. These are facts we will have to just accept. Abolishing the police and prison systems is a dangerous idea that puts people at risks. Do you think serial killers and rapists just need some therapy and they psychopathic behaviors will cease to exist? Many prisoners are given therapy in prison and still come out and recommit crimes. They are violent simply because they like the power they feel it gives them. Many survivors would have more peace knowing their abuser can go away and they will never have a chance to run into them again. I'm a survivor of DV and when I reported he wasn't imprisoned. He caught a simple assault charge and later went on to kill two people. He is now in prison for the rest of his life and that where he deserves to stay. He was not mentally ill. He was just violent because it makes him feel powerful. He is better off in prison and not on the streets. I think you need to challenge yourself to make this issue more victim centered instead of thinking these violent criminals can change. Why take this risk and put more vulnerable people, especially BW at risk? Are our lives just a sacrifice for us to believe in this irrational "changed man" narrative? Another sistah thought the same thing when marrying a man that served time for killing his pregnant wife. She thought he found God and she would be different. This man ended up killing her children and almost killing her. We can only see so many examples of these violent behaviors from abusers before we need to WAKE UP and get out of La La Land. These violent men will NOT change simply because they don't want to. They want the ability to hurt others and get away with it. Abolishing the prison system will do exactly that. Killers and rapists rely on us feeling sorry for them so they can continue victimizing vulnerable people. This is irresponsible and gets many women killed. No mercy.

[@entertain7us148]

i like the abolitionist argument in general - that we should structure justice around rehabilitation rather than punishment - but i still think there remains a place for punishment, incarceration or separation. even long-term structural, preventative change isn't going to eradicate all abusers, and i truly can't get behind the idea that we just need to empathise with abusers and understand that they may only be lashing out at their partners because of economic distress - bullshit. that sounds like a Trumpian argument. abuse is 100% about power and control.

[@rn2787]

One issue is that you can't "fix" PTSD. There's no cure. You can't "make it right." There are physical permanent changes in your brain. Sometimes there's no way to fix what you broke. I am not saying our system works. We can't keep doing what we are doing, but let's not pretend that you can make things right in every case no matter how much we wish we could.

[@rpggal]

The guest acknowledged that harm cannot be undone, in fact that's a basic premise of her argument. The argument is: given that no system can undo the damage already done, what is the best system for 1) offering redress for previous harm and 2) preventing future harm? The carceral system as it currently functions does not prevent harm, and in fact directly contributes to the conditions that make inter-partner violence more likely by depriving abusers of current and future employment opportunities and institutionalizing them. You can't beat the violence out of someone, but you can alleviate the conditions that make violence more likely through social and economic support. Additionally, the only redress for harm the carceral system currently offers is the satisfaction of getting your abuser sent to jail, which, as the guest brought up, is not actually a desirable outcome for clients that love and have children with their abusive partners, which by her account is the majority. A much better redress for harm would be counseling and financial support.

[@rn2787]

@@rpggal she said "make it right", but nothing can in cases like rape, murder, abuse, etc... To be clear I am definitely not saying our system works. I just don't think telling people that you can "make it right" is true in some cases. I have PTSD and I have tried every therapy I can afford and I still have PTSD and every single one of my mental healthcare providers has told me that there's no cure. In that sense there's no justice or making me whole again. No system can actually give me what I need which is to not have PTSD. I know that our current system cannot even give me the minimum of what I want which is to ensure that nobody suffers at the hands of my abusers again. We need a better system to handle the situation, but don't sell people a lie.

[@lolrelyt]

@@gatordays1538 And that's okay! But I do think that having ACCESS to these things would make a huge difference. I don't think they wanted to make these services an end-all-be-all solution, but it at least gives us a starting point.

[@maggieann6437]

Listening to intelligent passionate women talk is music to my ears.

[@iamlaurengill]

What this conversation reveals is that we are going to have to undergo a massive mindset shift. A key question we have to ask is "are abusers and violent criminals redeemable?" Answering "yes" to this question would require us to move from a punitive framework.

[@Asafo87]

I agree Lauren. If every problem has a solution, then the logical next step is to figure out what the best solution is. I also think many people confuse "difficult" with "irredeemable".

[@chikaka2012]

I agree that a punitive framework is not effective. The best anger management programs for abusers have about a 50% success rate. That means these men reportedly don’t return to physical abuse within 5 years of the program. Anecdotal evidence suggests about another 25% do return to some level of psychological abuse. Unfortunately, with a person of a certain age, there’s very little you can do to change their basic way of navigating the world. I don’t believe those individuals should be punished but they need to somehow be kept away from potential victims.

[@ThemisThoth]

“I want my relationship to change”... this is so frustrating. I agree that this would be optimal. But it ignores the aggressor’s agency. Sure there are reasons and that should be addressed. But the aggressor would need to engage in that kind of work. Also, the prison system needs to change and become rehabilitative and not just punitive... but and however, this does not mean the person using violence should be free to perpetrate violence until he/she is fixed.

[@sumarew]

Exactly 🙄, people don't have to be violent so you think people who CHOOSE to be violent are going to be easily rehabilitated?? The naivety is astounding

[@sumarew]

The only cure for antisocial behavior is jail, period

[@ThemisThoth]

aimee glatt Honestly, even though that is sarcastic, I would prefer that, than allowing them to abuse a person each day while getting therapy 🤷🏾

[@ThemisThoth]

aimee glatt also, I do not mean to be rude and I hope my comments do not come off that way. I am really trying to grapple with the issue.

[@coolcat6341]

The thing is thier is no guarantee,,, and do we spend funds supporting victims or abusers... We all have choice as prisoner's guard once told me,, for men with domestic violence cases WAS IT WORTH IT.. or maybe they did enjoy it.

[@KaitlinGaspar]

I'm so stoked for this conversation already!! thank you for this video!!!

[@ThemisThoth]

Same.

[@lyndseybelle]

This is a topic I’ve struggled with regarding prison abolition. I am really thankful for this conversation, as someone who was a victim of a “ring” during my teen years. He, well, they, are now in prison, and anything else makes me fear for my life. I feel safe (at least as much as I can) when they are locked up, but I also understand that maybe my comfort has to change in order to help others who are suffering at the hands of our system. It is a harsh reality for me, but I am trying to open up to this conversation. The hard part is that I was so young. God, I still am. It’s only been about 2 years since they were locked up. It’s hard to understand now that I am an adult how another adult could take such horrific advantage of a child. When it comes to adults who harm children in these ways, I struggle to see any other answer other than to “lock them up!”. But I see it from the view of someone who has dealt with abuse from childhood to late teen years. Those men just hurt so many young girls like me. SO many. I know their names, and it hurts. I don’t think those men deserve to change or have a second chance or anything. I don’t think I’ll ever not struggle with this conversation, but I know it needs to be had in order to reform & truly change the system. I was one of the “lucky” ones, in a way. I didn’t even know at the time I was in danger until they went to prison. But they did. Which is something that often fails other women. Most women do not get answers or justice for r*pe, for assault, for domestic violence. Which I believe is the true issue. I hope I can continue to learn and open up to this subject with time and with healing. Thank you for letting me hear your thoughts & listening to mine if you do🙏

[@TechnicJunglist]

I'm so sorry that happened to you. Definitely continue to tell your story. 💕

[@CaptainPygar]

Thank you for commenting and I'm so deeply sorry that it happened to you.

[@Xakaran]

I’m sorry for what you’ve been through. Some people can’t be rehabilitated. Period. Fortunately, the percentage is small and could be taken on an individual basis and psychiatric institutionalization could be viable for that. Long term abuse like yours and that of some of my family members shows long term inability to empathize and those people need to be studied somewhere away from society. Not merely punished but studied and helped to whatever point they can be, to serve as understanding for early intervention in the lives of others. I think that’d be a significant improvement over the punitive system we have now.

[@CharlesWarrenOnline]

I disagree with ALOT of what she says. Enabling and supporting a person that wants to stay with their abuser - even if their killed. I fundamentally don't support that.

[@lisah8438]

I don't support the decision but I do understand that you should support the person. From a distance sometimes

[@theunaBridgedversion]

I appreciate the discussion but the solutions provided doesn't help solve the problem. My father would have eventually killed my mother and promised to do so several times if she didn't leave and the police didn't intervene. I want to know if Kimberly and the guest have ever been in an abusive relationship.

[@starbaby2671]

Kimberly has. She’s been raped and kidnapped by a former partner. But she’s made it clear that people can disagree with prison abolition as long as it’s done respectfully.

[@coolcat6341]

She was but I think she is the type to think about the abusers in sympathetic way,,, prison is needed to give some type of retribution to the victim,,, rehabilitation I doubt its effectiveness, am from the middle East I know about domastic violence,,, our neighbour burned her self to death cause everyone was thinking about her abusive husband as priorty.

[@motherrussia73]

Thank you so much for making this, especially with the discussion on how we treat people in abusive relationships when they don't want to leave right away. It's a nuance that I don't think many people who have not experienced domestic violence themselves/worked closely with those who have understand very well.

[@ThemisThoth]

Awe dang. I think you and I have our first disagreement Kim. While I think defunding the police is right and should be done. I am not for abolishing the police. I will think through this some more.

[@txranchmom]

I think it will be a step by step progress to abolishing the police. Right now defunding and reallocation of funds need to happen, followed VERY closely by legislative reform. I think police being abolished or something very close is possible but not until we get a hold of the base problems of education and therapy and i doubt I would live to see that in my lifetime.

[@AJ-cq5pw]

I mean what exactly is the police doing now to help victims? They usually make situations worse or don't do anything at all.

[@ThemisThoth]

Aliyah J. I am for rethinking the way we do policing. And I appreciate your first comment. I have strong feelings against the police but they are doing a lot of things now. They are flawed and flawed in a way that have me questioning their usefulness in some areas. I am not yet on board with abolishing. But I also understand the time period is not going to be immediate. Apologies, I am still thinking this through and doing research.

[@mattmckinney9820]

@@AJ-cq5pw your question is the exact issue. Its not the polices job to assist victims thats social workers and other areas. The police exist to enforce the law, when we start making them do more jobs is when mistakes happen, and as for your second sentence, i have a hard time taking you seriously after reading it, are you even aware of why we have the police around or do you think they just go around staging reasons for them to exist for the last 100 years or so they have been around in some form? please dont respond your answers wont be worth the time to read

[@lisah8438]

I am for replacing the police with a new system. But it sounds like they want us to play kumbaya with criminals.

[@sadenni]

Rehabilitation is important and should be the first line of support, but how do you approach repeat offenders or those who are noncompliant to treatment? Those who, even with extensive intervention, cause harm to their families and communities?

[@juicyparsons]

I'm so geeked for this! I been working in an abolitionist group a few years now and I'm starting to see how much we have to ask the right types of questions and center the right people and really build up transformative justice and healing infrastructures in our cities- at the grassroots with as little State intervention as possible. I've seen newer abolitionists rightly continue to point to ways that people already reject calling police- but without centering domestic and sexual assault survivors, even abolitionists can get into gaslighting territory instead of acknowledging the vast amount of work that needs to be done. Thanks for continuing the necessary conversations!

[@chikaka2012]

I do like the recognition that the system frequently punishes female victims of violence unless they look like a saint. I also appreciate the advice about how a friend can help at the end, which is very accurate. That said, it seemed like the issue of safety was never raised, which is a serious omission. Revenge really isn’t a priority for victims - safety is.

[@archerrising9947]

If you have been watching this series then you know we've been having discussions around mental health education. If more people learn the many facets of mental wellness and poverty decreases, we will see less violence for the reasons we see it

[@souti7436]

This seems like the just-world fallacy. If circumstances were better there would be no violence. No. Some people probably have perfect lives and turn out to be monsters all the same. Not everyone deserves tolerance or forgiveness. They don't deserve lifelong indentured servitude either, so I don't have solutions I just don't think this is it.

[@Aquamoonmagic]

This video doesn't have the views it truly needs. This is IMPORTANT INFORMATION.

[@mattmckinney9820]

"The fear of what happens when it goes wrong" no you should be alot more worried about the consequences of it going wrong, people loosing their lives.

[@ThemisThoth]

Ok, “just jump in” doesn’t work for me. But I do appreciate the discussion. We all do not have to agree.

[@nounepierre963]

... I also didn't report my domestic violence when the police showed up, I felt I had to protect his body more than my own. This system is definitely broken. Thank you for sharing this, really opened up my eyes to the possibilities of change.

[@heboy7298]

Ngl...I was REALLY resistant listening to this. It has really made me think, though. As someone with PTSD (and a cycle breaker of abuse), my brain was hardwired to think of certain behaviors as normal. I grew up being drawn to certain friendships and romantic partners that subconsciously reminded me of my abuser. I wanted change, cut off who I needed to, and am working on no longer normalizing unhealthy behaviors. If I didn’t want help, and didn’t have access to mental healthcare, I would have passed down my trauma, and would have continued bonding to my abuser. If my abuser accepted help, things could have been different for me, but trauma is to deep, it can be hard to acknowledge and want to fix in the first place. Even if a person WANTS to change, that person could be too embarrassed to get help...or might not have access to healthcare...or might have healthcare, but doesn’t know how to navigate it to get the right kind of health they need. I’m babbling 😂, but I can see how incarceration is a temporary bandaid to a larger systematic issue, and is not the solution to trauma. At the same time...Being as dependent on the system as I am...I can’t fathom totally decriminalizing DV, and nurturing abusers feels traumatizing in itself- as I feel society already does that.

[@TechnicJunglist]

Interesting topic bc for years I carried so much emotional and physical baggage as a sexual abuse survivor- both as a child and as a young adult.

[@ThemisThoth]

I am not sure the remorse from women after they speak up (and men are place behind bars) is enough to oppose the system that punishes black men. I’m still listening. Admittedly, I am more punitive towards men who violate women.

[@ThemisThoth]

The husband stabs her and not arrested. I cannot wait for the explanation as to why punishment here is not good.

[@BeastiezCyZ]

@@ThemisThoth I don't think we should waste resources on abusers or rapist. So instead of prisons, why not just look at the death penalty option?

[@BeastiezCyZ]

@Anne Day No, because they have lost right to live. You rather put them in a prison where I would argue you're torturing them and isolating them which is kinda morbid in itself. Why not just get it over with and kill them? What gives us the right to put them in a cell?

[@ebonih7138]

Prison makes people more violent and the sentences for domestic violence cases that don’t result in death are not a long period of time. They come out more traumatized and more abused that when they went it and that’s scary for victims who fear for their lives.

[@KayDejaVu]

No. The accused actually doesn't stay in prison or jail that long. Some solutions would be nice. This woman gave none.

[@sumarew]

So, on the one hand, you discuss how important it is to separate kids from violent homes and then on the same hand, you talk about how it's fine if women do not want to separate from their abusive partners...

[@nerdywolverine8640]

I don't think she was saying that it's fine, more that we don't get to dictate that for them as autonomous adults. I think the best way to deal with that is to ensure they still have support and minimise the chance for any potential harm, while making sure that they have access to any and all escape routes, rather than force seperation and remove their free will from the equation.

[@nerdywolverine8640]

@Anne Day you're right, I hadn't thought about that. Ideally the children would have a level of autonomy and the ability to seperate themselves as well, or at least be able to have a place at the table when it comes to decisions like seperation, but obviously that's not always possible especially with younger children. That does raise the question of whether we can justifiably seperate them from both parents or if forcing seperation between the abuser and the children while still allowing their mother to remain in contact is possible, especially within our current socioeconomic systems. I don't really have solutions for that, but thank you for pointing it out, I have a lot to think about and further discussion is definitely warranted.

[@chikaka2012]

Nerdy Wolverine The problem is, this rarely is a single victim issue. Children usually are involved.

[@ThemisThoth]

HOW CAN YOU SAY YOU TEACH “client centered lawyering” and then want to tell clients “you don’t get to want that?” Give them option... the question still stands, what if they want retribution?

[@damaracarpenter8316]

But she said she would have a hard time telling them they dont get to want that. She's not taking it away from them. Just to clarify

[@alayjahk2348]

That's not what she said at all, she said she'd have a hard time saying that.

[@ThemisThoth]

Damara Carpenter I understood that. The idea of client centered lawyer is having the client directing the attorney. The attorney’s preconceived notion of “justice” should not cover what the client want. The question then is, even after “giving options”, if the client wants retribution, what then? She ignores the question when it was asked directly. Kim asked, “what if the client wants retribution...” she goes on to explain that...that is not normally what people want etc. that is a straw-man, the question was, what if the client wants retribution?

[@ThemisThoth]

Culture Counts hey, apologies for not being clear. I think I clarified my comments above now. We can discuss this, because I have been considering this approach to justice, but it seems no one is willing to answer the hard question that is about retribution, which I commented before I heard it being asked. As a lawyer, I have had this conflict and I do not quite get the premise and the cost if this approach to justice is taken.

[@lolrelyt]

@@ThemisThoth She very clearly said that she didn't know what she would do. The reason why she went into the winded discussion about people wanting retribution is because it's often the only understanding of justice we know in this current system. I'm not saying that it didn't derail the question, but I definitely think that there is no black and white solution to this issue. Furthermore, in that explanation, she did allude to people who chose the path of retribution didn't end up getting the results they wanted. Again, this case isn't completely binary, so it definitely needs to be discussed, but that means we get gray answers.

[@SuburbanKween]

Whew, chillay! This was hard to watch but I've learned some things. Imprisonment deters me from commiting a crime but, sadly, not others. It's too bad we can't simply Thanos-snap on abusers.

[@Elijah3_86]

I'm really enjoying these conversations your having on your channel

[@yaseenackerman150]

Justice systems the world over need to change and we need way less punitive measures, but decriminalising domestic abuse? This would literally pave the way for a Handmaids Tale scenario...

[@Psychoclaw]

Thank you for bringing so many awesome people into my orbit! I'm loving these interviews.

[@Boahemaa]

Sounds like abuser apologists. The UK refuses to drop domestic abuse cases even after the victim asks that the case be dropped because it is often due to duress from the abuser or the community or both. I thought one way to sustain women's rights is to equip women with the skills and access to resources meant to protect them from abuse. Has that goal been achieved? Lets get that done if it doesn't work then we can try coddling abusers to see if they will change since shaming them for causing harm is bad.

[@fortheculture4553]

These conversations are soooooooo important. THANK YOU

[@kvarce417]

This is so tough...it seems like the nexus of so many deep societal issues, and it’s daunting to think that real progress requires tackling all of them. I’m more and more convinced that’s the only real solution, but even so I have trouble thinking about the right order to do it-it’s all so interconnected...

[@ShaneAhmedi99]

This answered so many questions for me! Great content !!

[@sandralindor]

This was an amazing interview! Thank you for this content Kim

[@XzavierJJ]

You look fantastic Kim! Excited to hear what you both have to say. ❤

[@Secret413]

This was such a great interview. Thank you for sharing this!

[@PogieJoe]

This is such a mind-bendingly complex issue. I appreciated this conversation and I'm looking forward to learning more about the topic.

[@tatieyona1967]

This conversation was soooooo good thank u, this has changed my mind on a lot of things.

[@divinefemenina]

I appreciate people who really know their shit saying idk when it comes to the alternative solutions to these systems because when I was first learning about politics and how embedded racism is in everything around us I naively went to my dad to ask questions and talk about things with but he would always use not knowing the alternative to what’s in place as a way to discourage me from believing what I do. And I think a lot of people with his mentality try to use that as a tactic to shut down these important conversations. So that felt really good to hear.

[@lisah8438]

I am not satisfied with a I don't know.

[@analiciajade]

Great convo great suggestions. I have some doubts about certain areas but we shall c. Thank u Kim and Professor Goodmark

[@onlythebeginning-G30]

Thank you so much for this brilliant conversation!👏🏾I have learned so much that will fuel my activism further.

[@misspiscesdreamz]

Thank you for continuing these conversations. Very interesting.

[@BIGBOYKDOG]

Loooool decriminalization of domestic violence?????? Okay

[@starrix4712]

Sounds like an agenda to me 🧠 Now I wonder how Kim would respond to that kind of consideration (one that also includes her as an agent whether knowing or not), that would really reveal what kind of person she is and her level of awareness of reality 🧬 I also have complex views on this though, to Kim and other lurkers, however it’s based on what I know about this world than pure theory without even ethical integrity

[@alexisesomonu430]

Thank you for these conversations each one has given me so much perspective.

[@emilyhealy9696]

This addresses my worries around prison abolition, and challenges ideas that I've had for years. Thank you so much Don't know if I agree but it's important to try and broaden my mind

[@lannadelarosa]

The most important conversation I’ve ever listened to. Thank you.

[@irinao4947]

This conversations are so great. Thank you so much Kim

[@drmaxinedavis6046]

Such an awesome interview!!!!!

[@dirkster42]

Just sent this to my ethics students. I have some criminology majors who might find it useful. Always love your content!

[@AtypicalPaul]

This is a really hard pill to swallow in it's surface but once you dig into it this makes total sense. Love the topics you tackle and the people you bring on :)

[@bluecolamusic]

i've never heard this argument before and it was so so interesting, it's really making me think

[@kevinford9578]

This content is so great!! Please keep up the amazing work!

[@EmmaLeeHD]

I have so been appreciating these conversations.

[@ieatgremlins]

What a fantastic guest! Thank you for doing this.

[@laexploradoraaaXD]

Thank you so much for having this very, very necessary conversation. I've never agreed with punishment and punitive justice but it took me a long time to learn and understand abolition. Abolition is an optimistic approach to improving the lives of people and communities, and holding those who harm accountable.

[@ThemisThoth]

I respectfully disagree, It is an excuse. I am so sorry. Further, Deterrence is not the only reason there is also retributivist approach to these kinds of Justice. If my mom, future daughter etc... show up and is abused, either I take care of it or the system.

[@dudethisismyemail]

This is interesting, and I'm sorry that has happened to you. What do you think should happen

[@ThemisThoth]

dudethisismyemail i was saying “if” it happened. I want a new system, I just don’t know how it should look.

[@AtypicalPaul]

Another wonderful conversation!

[@texanqueen3096]

I learn so much Everytime, wow you never go unappreciated over here!!!

[@justjess6636]

This was such a good conversation!

[@brit4170]

Absolutely fantastic. Thank you.

[@ShellyflowersReadsandWrites]

I am definitely putting her book on my list of things to read. This interview was fascinating.

[@PiLarTheStarlet]

Fantastic interview. Kim you are a treasure. Keep it up sis!

[@ThemisThoth]

This will be my last comment as I have taken up too much space here and I do apologize for that. I have so many questions for her and I agree with everything... except the solution of not being punitive towards aggressor.

[@blackgirlburntout]

You have not taken up too much space! You are asking questions and engaging thoughtfully and respectfully! I just subscribed to your channel and im excited for your content. :)

[@NotSandraBullock]

I am still no where near complete abolition yet but I do think we should be rehabilitating folks in jail/prison that are going to come back to society. I do think there are crimes that should keep some people away from society. Crime & punishment should also be reformed. Our prisons are too full. We can definitely rehab some of those folks in there and clear most of the jails/prisons.

[@RebekahSolWest]

I learned so much from this. Thank you.

[@shashavengesayi6055]

Pink looks so good on you Kim. Especially the pink band on your hair ☺️

[@laurakindle5356]

This really helped me define an opinion that I didn't realize I had.

[@ThemisThoth]

The technicality in the case is that she was on notice and allowed access (willingness was in dispute). This was case where the district attorney was wrong and the law was wrong. Do we through out the baby with the bathwater. There should be checks on prosecutorial discretion.

[@yellowhailtail]

I've enjoyed this conversation. I do believe abuser can be reformed, but just like someone with a drug problem they gotta recognize there is a problem. Looking outside of the US is a good idea for help. I've never heard of restorative justice before, so I'm glad for this discussion. Thank you both :)