Which Legion?! The best and the rest - Horus Heresy - Age of Darkness

[@DMHightower]

Another GREAT video!!! Keep it up!

[@theadeptusterrapodcast]

Been loving the Tier lists, thanks for the great content!

[@BearfootMiniatures]

Glad youve enjoyed them mate, theyve been really fun to do!

[@kizzdougs]

Everyone does have the same luck and probability, but other Legions don't have to roll for their Legion rules. That's the big difference with the Thousand Sons. You have to roll more dice just to get what the other Legions get automatically, so chance and dice rolls effect the Thousands Sons more than the other Legions. They can also completely lose their Legion rules if the squad sergeant dies. No other Legion has to deal with that.

[@tn00bz]

I think something that always gets left out of the world eaters discourse, is that their ability to switch out chainswords for chain axes for free is not insignificant. It should be included in their legion trait: +1 attack on the charge and every model with a chainsword gets +1 strength *always.* I think that's not insignificant. I'm not sure if it makes them better than you guys have stated, it certainly doesn't make them amazing, but not insignificant.

[@Buffaluffasaurus]

As a World Eater player, I’m glad they ended up in Tier B. I feel like they really are the epitome of balance this edition, because all their rules and units are fluffy and synergise well with the way you want to play them. However, the massive downside as you guys cover is that they’re a one note army. Your opponent knows how you’re going to play them, and when Falax Rampagers are the only great unit in the army, they’re pretty easy to take down since they’re only in 3+ power armour. WE get no way to buff any of their shooting units, and their combat trait is super fluffy, but all it does is increase the volume of attacks, not the quality. Other legions getting buffs to their initiative, WS or +1 to wound on the charge are all better traits. Any armies that have elite combat units with good initiative, or good movement (like White Scars, Alpha Legion, Raven Guard), can easily outmaneuver them and play keep away. And armies with strong shooting buffs can easily whittle down WE’s best units before they even make combat.

[@MayhapsOmegon]

Next y’all should do an Alpha Legion Rewards of Treason unit tier list as an excuse to kidnap him again for three days of recording.

[@BearfootMiniatures]

hahaha the legion units tierlists should do for that mate!

[@meatlaser]

100% on the NL and 100% on Space Wolves. They are FAST and thats how you have to use them. Also you guys are 100% right about their advanced reaction. (Just so happens to be my two main legions .....)

[@chrispitts6494]

Alpha legion are easily the best legion in 30k no questions asked

[@FoxHound-ut1hu]

'We are the hunters that Stalk through the stars When the pack has descended Your world will know fire No delusions of glory No honour pretence We are the wolves of Fenris We will howl till the end!!!'

[@co1856]

Whilst I like the melee focus, the Sons of Horus DO still have issues and feel like a different editions ruleset. The Legion trait should be always on imo - one turn is nice, but once it's done, it's done and you have to work really hard this edition to get a melee unit into melee. Unit wise, Justaerin, whilst good are super expensive at 50pts a model base, no upgrades - so a more competitive angled model is 65pts - that's a keenly felt price per loss and they get shot off the board pretty damn quickly. They don't have Battle Hardened (which is what I think they should have for 50PPM). The real issue for the SOH (unit wise) are Reavers and Reaver Aggressors - utter shite for their points. The Armoury isn't amazing, but I can get behind it - just drop the Specialist Weapon from the Carsoran Axes, and put them on Reavers stock. They feel like they're missing something, but with the above changes they would feel really comfortable on the table without being broken. That said, it won't happen because GW can't write rules particularly well anymore. Night Lords were my first army in 1.0, and were played flick/flack alongside my Sons of Horus throughout 1.0. They just don't feel good to play anymore. They're not a shooting army in the lore, they're gutter scum that gangs up on people in melee. A Talent For Murder was clearly re-written by someone who played their army that way (it should never have changed). They're a fast army - but everything is fragile because it costs a lot (Raptors especially) and doesn't have anything other than shooting to work against AP2. So whilst they dominate in the early game, the mid-late game against a canny opponent will see them crumble. Curze is ridiculous at being a refund primarch, but that is what happens when GW takes away a core rule from 1.0 (Night Vision). I don't see an issue with Prey Sight - Curze shouldn't grant it - but then he always dies awfully for me. They're S, because they have mobility, shooting and can set the game in your favour, their melee is weak and they're fragile, not to mention that you don't actually need their special units (which are mostly overpriced) because most of those are focused on melee and ATFM works well this edition by shooting down squad sizes before units get to melee - so I'd put them bottom of S, but still S if you're leaning into competitive builds. I know this is a more competitive channel (lists etc), but Terror Assault has been a staple for Night Lords players since 1.0 - because its narrative (and always has been), it's just competitive people seem to go overboard nowadays in Terror Assault and make it unfun. So that's an awful comment that is about as bad as saying Raven Guard are mid. Night Lords would be A if people took Terror Squads and didn't lean so heavily into making the game unfun, but the Horus Heresy 2.0 community seems to have a MAJOR issue with self control that 1.0 really didn't have.

[@ero9841]

Iron warriors traits basically removes 1/3 of opponents unit selection. Dreads , tanks and transport form there list.

[@sarli2166]

rather than blowing up tanks with s10 lascannons like people think, I feel like I get much more value out of the iron warrior trait because it turns on weapons against tanks. like my tactical marine bolters or defensive weapons on my tanks. Tactical marines popping a rhino or something so I can kill the troops inside with a scorpius is a lot more valuable to me than over killing a land raider with ten s10 lascannons

[@agripinaa8684]

It just shifts so many things into taking out transports and any fire support that isn’t HSS with lascannons.

[@AndrewPeverells]

I really think you're overselling TS. You mentioned a lot of other legions that don't get their trait, and I think it's a non-argument. Those cases are ones where the trait doesn't apply, and it's the case with every legion, no legion has a trait where it always applies. TS are the only legion which can lose their trait entirely, and that's bad. Very bad. And it only applies to infantry, vehicles and dreads are completely vanilla. And the bonuses are not that good either, apart from Pavoni. One sniper shot? Yeah, good luck banking on that Ld8. Using your same argument, I'd take Iron havocs with precision shots 6+ on all models rather than having the chance of getting a single one on a ld8 or kill 3 of your guys, any day, every day of the year. The other arcana? -1 ld on pinning is nice but very situational, it only realistically works on 1-2 units (nem bolters and rotor cannons). +1 invuln? Sounds super strong, but with the limitation of a 4+ max it really isn't. It's only gonna be useful on a unit with already an in-built 5+, and how many are out there? A 6+ invuln on a tactical isn't gonna change your match in the slightest. You could argue a 4+ invuln breacher, yeah, but again, you have to bank on a ld8 check. It's a dice game, yeah. But relying entirely on dice rolls for your strategies makes every plan so volatile that you're almost playing another game, where every other legion has a leeway in their chance-dice rolling to actually play tactically. The big issue with TS is that their trait just feels bad. If you fail the test it's just horrible, because you kill your own guys and you don't get anything. And that's unique in the game, no other legion has a drawback in their legion trait (like, idk, WE: you get +1 attack, but you have to charge the nearest unit), and such a massive drawback too. If you pass the test, eh, whatever, the benefits are not massive, just situational on some specific units that also need multiple arcana stacking to be even remotely interesting. Which increases the chances of failing. Which increases the bad feeling. I'm sorry to say this, it's not me trying to insult anybody at all, but I really think Bill had some very poor arguments when talking of the TS, and he's soooo far off the core point (and, in all fairness, I think he was equally as spot on on every other legion). It's entirely a "feeling" matter, you have to play TS to get what I'm trying to convey here and really understand why they feel and play bad. And not only play them once to have a taste: you have to play other legions, "normal" ones that play the game normally without a big fucking torch up your ass while a baboon is tickling your soles. And then play TS for a while. Then you'll get it. Bill said TS players blame the dices, when it's absolutely not true. I don't know a single TS player (and I know many) that ever blames dice rolling beyond what a normal player would. We all blame poor design, a gameplay that feels bad, not rewarding and unnecessarily punishing, a super cool and varied (I mean, we have more specific units than any other legion) roster, but barely usable outside of pure fluffy play. My biggest head shaker when hearing Bill was his "but 4 telepaths" argument. I mean, of course, but who does that? You'd just be "that guy" nobody wants to play against, and many events even have a 0-1 limitation anyway. Of course you can stack 50 Templars, or do Fury of the Ancients, or bring however many Sovereigns you can in a demon list, but do you really wanna do it? If we're relying on power stacking, then any serious, realistic argument gets thrown out the window. And a big final caveat: I'm not trying to say TS are bad. I'm not complaining for the sake of it, I'm not whining in a waac perspective, I couldn't care less. No legion is bad, no legion is worthy of D, because of the simple reason that three quarters of every legion are drawn from a common shared base. You can do some pretty cool stuff with TS, as with every other legion, of course you do. But A tier? Absolutely the hell no, sorry. C at best.

[@agripinaa8684]

“The Iron Warriors trait is entirely dependent on your opponent’s list” Yeah and how many lists don’t have dreads and vehicles? And sure lascannons vs contemptors don’t make a difference, but they get a bunch of weapons which get upshifts that make it a lot easier clearing off pretty much all of your opponent’s fire support. Outright delusional

[@agripinaa8684]

You don’t want to be shooting Dreads with Tyrants, they’re obviously meant to be blasting Tacticals off the board while your actual anti-tank clears off dreads

[@agripinaa8684]

The fact it just outright shuts off 2/3rds of the Mechanicum roster too

[@3v3rhard]

I just dont bring any vehicles against iron warriors its waste of points. Its a stupid trait which makes little sense.

[@benjohnson876]

I think if you're going to talk about primarchs you have to talk about all of them because you didn't mention lion or angron as an example and they are absolutely brilliant and bump up their legion in my opinion.

[@GypsyDaenger]

That's insane that SW players don't read it as "starts within" it's 110% starts within and even so it's extremely powerful. I can't count how many times varagyr have pseudo pinned half a board. Given I don't infantry spam but SW absolutely win in the movement game hands down. I only take LRs and 5 man garage squads.

[@pascal9055]

As a White Scars player primarily, I think they are A tier. Unless you ALWAYS want to play Sagyar Mazan, they aren't S tier. Same with Night Lords in this ranking. I get that both armies have an excellent Rite, but you don't always want to play your army that way. For example, Sagyar Mazan makes it impossible to deep strike, and I do have jump pack units on my shelf. It also makes every tank impossible to field, and makes Leviathans unavailable, and movement 7 Levis for White Scars are actually quite good. Imperial Fists are ALWAYS good, unless you build some weird as hell list. Same with Ultramarines. Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are the best legions. Unlike White Scars and Night Lords they have no glaring weakness. As you both agree, White Scars unique units are garbage, for example. And this actually includes our special characters.

[@markarmenta2304]

Sad blood angel noises

[@amishwarlord0841]

It's ok. These guys are incredibly wrong. As soon as they said they'd rather have +1 strength over +1 to wound, I knew they'd be full of it. And I was correct.

[@randyoverland7221]

I think it’s mostly pretty accurate with two exceptions. You rated the night lords way too high. Yes, they’re great in night fighting, but most people build their lists to accommodate for night fight, so it’s not such a crazy advantage. And their +1 to wound is only against units they are bigger than, which, my experience doesn’t last more than a turn or two. And their thousand sons should also be lower. I agree they’ve got good units, but they are way overpriced compared to similar legion units. The khenetai are literally the only unit in the game that pay 15 pts for artificer on the sergeant. It’s also the only legion where the legion rule negatively impacts you. Yeah the minor arcana are decent buffs, but it’s not usually worth the risk of losing potentially 25% of your squad for a ld 8 unit, which is most units. Also Magnus sucks for how expensive he is. He’s inexplicably worse casting psychic powers than a praetor with the magister of prospero warlord trait.

[@benjaminbrenner745]

Thank you

[@gaaaaaaaaaaah1]

Totally agree on the Thousand Sons, I play them and have had a lot of success and few friends. (half joking) The combos are many but they aren't so straightforward like Iron hands or Fists. It takes some thinking but it is worth it

[@TheAlterspark]

You're a bit off on Salamanders. Like RG you have to lean into their unit units - eg Firedrakes and Pyroclasts. Their advanced reaction is also quite good as it beefs up your squad before they get charged which can tip the balance even on a weak unit. As for the worst legion trait - that's the TS. They can lose it by losing characters.

[@mikefrench178]

Scars are top tier. Mine are on a 90 to 95% win ratio. So good. Golden keshig are pure class.

[@shadeofheresy]

You cant put Iron Warriors below Iron Hands come on! Obviously I play Ultramarines and against most legions they are solid BUT I cant beat any Iron Warrior player with them to save my life. Their guns just blow you off the table before you can get anywhere near them. I would swap IW and IH personally. Thousand Sons in A? Controversial! That is pure Heresy! Good to see the Wolves get a little respect. Looks a solid list.