Why Does Every Pro Want This Disc?

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[@philipsaul]

A lot of AMs could do with getting rid of distance drivers and only using control drivers as their fastest discs

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yes, this is the other use for them that I just forgot to mention! They are great distance driver replacements for those who aren't fully ready for the higher speed distance drivers!

[@jannejaakkola5836]

I remember tying my personal best on my home course after three years of playing with just a putter. I knew that that was a very possible scenario, but also never would even consider playing disc golf with just one disc. For me the sport has always been about so much more than just the score. Having different molds opens up the options you can think of, whether they make sense or not, and that is a huge part of the intrigue for me. ymmv.

[@williamh8753]

My bag tops out speed wise with honor and Sapphire and Valkyrie. Def agree that the big boy distance discs over rated. I have a wraith but never use it cause it just hooks with my speed and get get distance but my friends wraith always goes 400. Different discs for different ppl

[@seymourglass26]

You can't have my Wraith. But yeah, that's where I top out, haha.

[@funkgremlin2765]

That’s exactly what I do. The fastest disc I throw is a 10 speed. A latitude 64 sapphire goes about 30 feet farther than a wraith for me

[@DiscmaniaGolfDiscs]

History lesson, technical breakdown, flight reviews, disc comparisons - all in one video?? Nobody doing it like Apollo!

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Thank you! 🙌🙌💪💪

[@calebwalin8754]

Felon and Escape are my main discs off the tee. Instead of skipping control drivers, I just don’t bag anything over 9 speed. Although I can get a distance driver further than a fairway driver, there is no comparison when it comes to consistency.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

That's the key, consistency!!!

[@michaelmccourt4992]

I feel like control drivers for me fill the very important role of doing whatever I need my disc to do. They are very versatile in that I can shoot any shot, hit any line I want just by manipulating the release. They go far, they can fly flex lines and forward penetrating hyzer shots. They do it all. My favorite is an Ethos Construct. I use that thing all the time.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Oooo, the Construct it GOOD!!!

[@jannejaakkola5836]

The point about pros noticing smaller stability gaps was something I had never thought about, but makes so much sense. I knew the distance gaps grow as your distance grows, but I just figured that everything just shifts towards the understable side with more power. I bag a Getaway and an Honor for flex shots, where the Explorer and River would just hold the line and something like Glory or Spark just wouldn't go anywhere. The 9/10 speed is also so much easier to control than distance drivers. Also, everyone must have that Firebird, Felon, Raptor for controlled flicks.

[@kyussvegas]

I've gone back and forth between the Dynasty and the Musket for that slot. I like having something I can throw both forehand and backhand where it goes farther than my FD, handles wind well, and still has some fade at the end. You nailed it about having something for forehands, the Dynasty is a go-to forehand disc for me in the woods.

[@rrydkvist7790]

I bag a Honor mainly for the Forehand, i dont have much use for it on backhand, i have explorers and a boatman as the stable Fairway and step up from that

[@calebdyer6332]

9 and 10 speed control drivers are my favorite discs in my bag. For my arm speed it is the perfect balance of distance and control. for me the advantage of the 9 speed dynasty over something like a tee-bird is that you get a full s flight. that flip up gives me extra distance.

[@akkadian1995]

Another great video! My most used disc forehand is the CD1 for flip-up but I recently added the Vanguard for a little more straight flight when I want it or with wind. Don’t really throw either backhand but a throw the forehand a lot more often. It’s CD1 on most tees from 300-350’

[@zebhosman9388]

Have done a lot of mold minimizing this season, down from 13 molds to 8 (throw about 390-400)… Control drivers were one of the first molds out couple months ago, have not missed them! Shot selection is a breeze and feeling more comfortable than ever with current molds 😎

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Nice! My bag usually sits between 7-10 molds! It's so nice to have a simplified bag like that!

[@frisbeefrolf]

I have a pretty minimal bag in general, but the fairway/control slots for me feel great. I’m bagging a Diamond, an FD, two Firebirds, and a Westside Fortress. Fortress is super slept on! Little sharper nose than any other 10 speed, super controllable. Perfect step between my FD and Firebirds while getting an extra 30 feet

[@julianseyal]

Wow. This was incredible lesson, gaps in bag, and a comparison thanks brudda

[@earlthomas6295]

Main reason I like to have a mixture of 7 and 9 speeds is because I don't throw mids very well on max power but I can power down on a 7 speed to get the flight...takes care of the 240-270 ft throws. I throw with more power on the 9 speeds and usually go further than if I throw max power on a 7. Then add into the mix different 9 speeds for forehands and backhands because I like the overstable ones for forehands and neutral flight on backhands.

[@user-xk3km3zy3h]

I am an amateur who can throw a distance driver 400+ ft... And I am steadily improving day by day... Simply put I use a control driver for control...on average, without having to power up, I can throw a control driver 330-360. It is very useful. When I don't have to power up on my fairway driver or mid range I have much more control over my disc.

[@nebnworb]

I throw both fairways and control drivers. While I can get fairways to occasionally go just as far, the control drivers consistently get more distance and also get different flights and flight characteristics so I found value in bagging all those slots. I like Centurions, Eagles, and Votums for my fairways and Constructs, Eras, and Nordic Phenom for my controls. I also have a couple Scepters.

[@D-fogel]

I find this to be spot on. My backhand I use the teebird for that control backhand spot with my little arm but being mostly forehand the PD is my favorite disc in the bag (380-400ft) I love that I can trust to get only a little turn with that nice fade on the end then I disc down to an eagle for 25 less ft of distance

[@kattemick]

I an a amature/intermediate player. Love the video 😄 I use honour as in the video fore big spike hyser (i think there called, 15-20 meters over trees and coming back left) strong headwind and terrible forehands.

[@SwankyDiscGolf]

Great video man! Lovin the vanguard

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Thanks man! 🙌 And the Vanguard is fun for sure! And so comfortable in the hand!

[@NJT1013]

I think if most ams would let go of ego we would see more people bagging nothing over a 9 speed. I just got back to throwing a few months ago after a couple years off. I started throwing in 2017 and got myself up to a point where I could hit 400' with a Wraith. As soon as I picked up a Destroyer, Boss, etc. I lost 50' of distance so it was the Wraith for me. I was throwing 350' with accuracy using 7 speeds so that was what came out the most on most courses during rounds. There are a few bomber hikes that are fun to ket loose on but for the most part i was going off the tee with a 7-9 speed disc depending on shot shape, wind, etc. I guess what Im trying to say here is the best approach for me was always the slowest disc that will get the job done. I eventually got to a point where 300' with a Buzzz was possible and stuck at 400' (max, not regularly) with a distance driver. Control drivera are distance drivers for most of us.

[@billthecrusher8283]

I learned on old Orcs/Beasts b4 the fast stuff and they are still great but you definitely had to find the OS ones. These days 7 and 9/10 speed throw similar because arm speed

[@LearyTheCablGiDiscGolf]

I love the vultures from discraft! Crazy how many different shots I can throw with them. Both spins I can put them on hyzer to hold for long approaches, flat for straight to fade, or anhyzer for straighter flights

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah they definitely bomb as well! I was pleasantly surprised!

[@LearyTheCablGiDiscGolf]

@@ApolloDiscGolf the most interesting part is the rim width. It’s listed as a 10 speed which usually has a 1.9-2.1 cm rim, but the vulture only has a 1.8cm rim which is thinner than the undertaker! I originally got craves to complement my vultures, but they are the same rim width despite having a 3.5 speed rating difference. Morale of the story is there is less correlation between distance, speed, and rim width than we think? 😅

[@timok1581]

I been using the CD from discmania and loving it. I would not call it a distance driver because it's a 9 speed but that's what makes it comfortable in my hand. Great video again keep it up.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Thank you!

[@ZachHicks420]

I throw a full range of stability for control drivers. Firebird for beef, Thunderbird for straighter backhands and forehands, Cervini for understable side.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I haven't heard of the Cervini?

[@jlb122587]

Awesome video, Apollo! I feel like the undertaker is the closest to this slot in my bag. I primarily use sidewinders, undertakers, and raptors for control drivers.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

The Sidewinder is so good!

[@danielcraven4939]

i have a pair of infinite dynasty that sit perfectly between my prodigy f3 set and my set of innova wraiths. i would also say that my distance is pretty close to the range you mentioned yours was in the video

[@redsleaves]

Great video! This has been driving me nuts for months. I was cycling thunderbirds and not carrying 7s, but I’ve been really liking the vanguard. I have a Votum that sits at the same stability on a chart, but it is much more of a workable laser for me. Throw it on forehand and get turn with a comeback. The Vanguard is much more of a big sweeping fade backhand, or laser straight forehand. So similar stability numbers but the different speeds give me different flight options. I am finding out the the new s-line FD takes care of that straight to understable slot and doesn’t need a big brother for distance or shot shape. I have a CD1 in the bag but I’m still trying to figure out if it has a role to play.

[@redsleaves]

Also I bought the Votum from you

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Thank you! The Votum is solid for sure!

[@Iantwi_dg]

I usually go to my FDs for long controlled shots, and my lone howl 3 for something I know will have that touch of finish at the end 🔥 only real difference for me

[@Blahblah23207]

As a backhand only AM, these slightly overstable control drivers fill the slot that the very overstable control drivers fill for pros, bigger arms, and forehand players. An Honor does basically the same thing as a Felon for me so I bag the Honor. Same with the Explorer. It is basically a slightly further overstable mid for me. Where I actually get some use out of control drivers is my Saint. That is my go-to fairway/control right now. I can get decent distance but with great control and predictability. The Saint is for me what the Tunderbird/Honor is for the pros. My bag and game is built around my 5-speed Claymore, my 9-speed Saint, and my 12-speed Sword (that is probably closer to an 11-speed tbh). As a moderate arm speed AM, I get so much more utility out of these neutral to slightly understable discs.

[@owleven]

Just FYI, the Millennium Orion LF was the first true control driver. Came out in either 2005 or 2006. Basically a workable PD; Starfire top/Firebird bottom. PD is anhyzer top FB bottom.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Ah, I didn't know the OLF was released before! I think the PD was the one that made it mainstream though... The PD was in every Innova players bags, and even some open bag pros!

[@coopercrawford3545]

I love the teebird and thunderbird for me I need both in the bag. I throw around 400-430ft, and the thunderbird is I nice 380 for me because 380 just feels too short for my destroyers but too long for my teebird. The thunderbird just fills that nice space where I don’t have to throw it too hard or to soft.

[@JacobPorterLadder]

I throw a first run Finish Line era because I wanted something super neutral and also throw a Wing It Discs Stratosphere because I wanted something more understable as my Control driver slots. The stratosphere goes way further than my DD's (I have like MAX 350' of distance). My main Fairway is the Volt , so I agree with you, stepping up to say a Tesla feels dumb at my arm speed and the volt is already a MONEY back and forehand disc for me.

[@brosa1212]

On my overstable side if go from kaxe to an 8 speed like a volt to distance driver and it works well for the gaps. I don't really get the most out of 9 speed control drivers

[@Iliyena87]

I throw the Fortress (About the same numbers of the PD, Invictus, H1v2 and so on, a tick up in distance but down in stability comparatively), and soon I'll have a new battle for OS 9-speeds between the FX-2 in 400 and 500 plastic, Felon in fuzion and Lucid Air 155g, flat top Champion Firebird. :P

[@supaflashdiscgolf237]

I think most people have a 'weird range' where it is hard to get that distance consistently correct. Like you said when your power is at a certain level those gaps are smaller, but as power increases the gap stretches and that wierd range starts to get bigger to where it starts becoming the difference between a 20 foot putt and a 45 foot putt which is where % falls off pretty hard. For me, starting to be in that upper intermediate or maybe lower mpo level where my consistent driver power is getting in that 410-420 range my 'weird range' is that 360-385 ish. It's weird because I know I can get there and past but its a bit too far for a stable fairway like t-bird or I can't trust it throwing it too hard, so I have to slightly power down a driver and it is more difficult to get the power right. That range I just seem to always come up way short or way long. Two ways to correct it are just big hyzer (I've never been a hyzer guy but I see now why, it's consistent and accurate) but its not always available. So I've finally started leaning on these control drivers like S-Line PD/Honor. I can throw them flat which is my natural release and power up on them a bit which is easier to get right without worry I will go deep. It's also very nice to have a disc that is just very straight even in headwinds that isn't just very overstable with hard finishes and skips like a beefy 12 speed.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah I feel like the 420 range is the sweet spot where you will actually have the gap to need the control drivers!

[@CasualRelief]

My bag is essentially built around the Teebird3 because it really bridges the fairway and control driver slot. I throw it for almost anything from 275ft to 390ft - no other disc I've ever used is as versatile.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I love my Teebird3s!

[@gmcclure]

I go from a selection of Explorers straight to a selection of Wraiths with nothing in between except a pair of Firebirds.

[@mpbx3003]

I honestly struggle to get even the slower distance/hybrid drivers to go further than my better-touch control drivers, so I only carry one for throwing in headwinds. I definitely do see the difference between my fairways and control drivers, though. Sure, the gaps aren't that huge, but the rest of my game is such that 15-20ft actually matters. That's the difference between a controlled putter approach and having to go for a mid a lot of times. Having both is an easier transition for me if I need to club up or down depending on how I'm throwing. It's easier for me to stretch out a shot with a faster version of the same disc than by throwing a more stable one faster.

[@justwondering1926]

I just found out that my 7 speed drift flies really far. So it’s taken out my undertaker and I’m thinking about replacing my road runner with a flippy 7 speed too so it fades less. But I still have a fireball (very OS) PD (OS but with some glide) and an infinite I blend Roman that’s now beaten up enough it has a tiny bit of drift and much mellower fade. It’s my straight fh disc and I like it on backhand too for if I want some fade at the end of a straight shot. That being said, I’ve got a wraith in the bag for shots that need more curve to them (it gives that drift turn and almost PD fade) and I have a 167g shryke for max distance

[@jakemiller270]

I settled on escapes for this slot the last 2 years until The trilogy challenge Vandal shocked me. Only issue is I can't cycle those stable Vandel runs unless I play multiple trilogy challenge to get backups. The Explorer is great for low tunnel but if I have height to work with the Vandal gives me more room for error with that higher flight path.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah I have heard great things about the Vandal! I haven't had a chance to throw one yet though!

[@TrevorRS05]

Killing it, as usual

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Thank you! 🙌

[@BaronWorsham]

I'm using control drivers in place of distance drivers. The 9 speeds have a more full flight path with controlled turn. Just works for my arm speed

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah that's the other use for ams that I forgot about! Using those in place of higher speed discs!

[@BaronWorsham]

@@ApolloDiscGolf yup! This is why everyone should do honest field work. I saw I was getting nearly as far as high speeds and MUCH easier on the arm. Changed how I select discs. Control drivers are my current favorite slot

[@peter007crouch]

The Craze aka "Control Driver" was approved in 2007, 1.5 years before the PD.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Forgot about the Crave! But the PD was the first one that was really popular among the pros for filling that slot! imo

[@adza2554]

I think most ams can do away with anything 10+ in speed. Generally faster discs are compensating stability at that point. I'm very pro Discmania in my bag, but I think the Essence, CD1, Vanguard & FD3 cover off all the stability requirements. If you can get over 400ft + then it is possible you'll see the benefit from the PD, DD3. With that said I do throw a DD3, but I'm looking for that PD finish but with slight pop-up and turn. But ultimately leaning on the stability and speed for a tad extra distance.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

The Essence, CD1, Vanguard, FD3 combo is deadly! Those discs are great!

[@plate-snipertm4707]

i throw my fairways up to around 350, then distance drivers for 350+… BUT im forehand dominant 60-40% and there is a definite level of ground control and shot shapability u can get with a control driver in the bag… 9,5,0,2 and utility 9 speeds are important… otherwise most ppl would be fine skipping from 7-8 speed to 11-12 for drivers… i dont find the need for understable 9 speeds though!

[@eoghana315]

Used to carry 7 speeds and 9/10 speeds but my FH improved enough that I just dropped the 7 speeds that I was using mostly for just BHs. It was easier to get used to BH control drivers than FH the fairways.

[@yubblebum]

I'm in a similar bucket. I love my 9 speeds (Thunderbirds and sidewinders) and my distance drivers but often find myself skipping over my 7 speeds. I feel more comfortable either juicing my 5 speeds or relaxing my 9 speeds for anything b/w 230-260 ft.

[@p3tj4]

Nice!

[@sportsmonster66]

those shorts gotta go! RCJH :) great video- been wanting a good comparison with the vanguard!

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Hey man, those are my all time favorite shorts! 😂 #EMAW 👌

[@sportsmonster66]

@@ApolloDiscGolf please just put chiefs gear back on 😂😂😂 #stingstheeyeballs

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

The season is almost here! 🙌

[@sportsmonster66]

@@ApolloDiscGolf let's go!!! 3 out of 5 sounds great to me 🏆🏆🏆

[@broderic]

great vid (handshake emoji) Thundy is 🐐

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Thanks man! And congrats on the Finish Line deal! Pumped to check out your new signature series disc! 💪💪

[@eoghana315]

When I got started, speed 6 and 7 were the OG fairway driver class, not the 8s. Sabre, Cyclone, Cheetah, Gazelle, Viper, etc. A lot of those fell on the dustbin of history because they only molded well in DX type of plastic.

[@williamfowler8686]

I learned this the hard way. I wanted to love the CD1 and I did love the CD1, until i threw and Athena. They flew exactly the same for me, landing a couple feet apart, but the Athena is just more comfortable and easier to control. For a noodle arm like me, just throw the 7 speed. I have wondered if toying with some higher glide 11 speeds might be worth it but idk.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

I really think something like a lighter weight Era or a Sapphire would be great for dabbling in faster drivers if you are currently at the 7 speed mark!

[@williamfowler8686]

@@ApolloDiscGolf I will try that for sure. Thanks for replying.

[@justinandrews520]

The highest speed I throw is a 10, solid control driver territory. I just don't have the arm speed for distance drivers (speed 11 and up) and they basically just hyzer our instead of a full flight. For me, control drivers are absolutely vital

[@derpderpin1568]

Pretty much same for me though I do forehand a Grace since my forehand goes almost 350 feet and my backhand tops at like 250. Backhand I rarely throw over a 7.

[@justinandrews520]

@derpderpin1568 that's so funny because my numbers are about the same, but reverse the backhand-forehand part lol

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

That is another great reason to bag them! Forgot to mention that!

[@WhoThaCazer]

only 9-10 speeds i throw are Clash Discs Spice as beefcake - old Discmania C-Glow FD3 that goes straight for good while and than fades (it has been in my bag for 3-4 years and dont fly like normal FD3 anymore) - Prodiscus Flipperi as bit longer D-line FD for throws i want throw alot hyzer and still turn to right (rhbh).

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah the Spice is really nice!

[@leo-4142]

I myself have really big hands so trowing a 9 speed is way more comfortable than a 7 speed. Thats the main reason I bag the feedback in 400 plastic.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah that's the other exception for ams! If you just like the control drivers instead of bagging fairways!

[@lastchanceihave]

I would say you should always have 9 speed discs in your bag...

[@derpderpin1568]

I'll always stand by it that a 10 speed Sapphire is the perfect beginner driver and should be the fastest disc in your bag for the first year or so. You can get a very decent flight out of it with very mediocre arm power and as you progress it become a perfect disc to learn hyzerflips with. They also come in a huge variety of weights and getting them in 140-155g helps even more for low arm power players.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah, and it would be a long time before growing out of the Sapphire! I feel like anyone under a pro level disc golfer can still get good use out of the Sapphire

[@derpderpin1568]

@@ApolloDiscGolf Totally agree.

[@tikimurtaugh4919]

The s line pd with pat#s is greater than any thunderbird ever made

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Those were a very good run! I have a first run S-Line PD that I am still deciding what to do with 😂

[@ICrankDiscGolf]

I love my vultures. They go like 80 ft further then my slower fairways.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

The Vulture pleasantly surprised me for sure!

[@DGwithZatch]

I will say that the Anax has got to be one of the best control drivers out there. In ESP it cycles pretty well even for Ams

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah, you just have to be ok with the feel! Those have a very unique feel to them... they didn't jive with me super well!

[@jakec5550]

I don't carry anything above 11 speed and then I only carry one 9 speed mold, the Hatchet (closest, in speed, to a control driver I carry). Everything else is 7 speed or lower. I just don't have the arm speed and I kind of doubt that I'm going to get it, at this point.

[@charlmorkel3490]

I throw my reverb (13 5 0 3.5) 120m 400ft started playing 6 months ago mostly use oveerstable discs the only fairway I have is a 7 speed f1and then a couple of control drivers (insanity feedback fx2 era surge) I mostly throw control drivers or midranges used to rely a lot on my f1 but been throwing mids better and f1 does not have the distance in am looking for on most shots

[@Falascoa]

I prefer 9s and 10s because I know in can get them up to speed backhand.

[@c_nrad]

I have a problem forehanding 7 speeds so a vulture/felon is perfect

[@judasblewit]

Fine ill order some discs i need a new mini lol.

[@ReaperThugX]

I bag an Honor. I found FD3s and Firebirds to be too overstable for my liking. Honor just backs off the stability enough to make it extremely workable

[@bakerby]

I wonder if the Feedback contributed to Chantel’s top ten finish this weekend.

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

Yeah! She killed it this weekend! And the Feedback would work really well with her forehand!

[@JD27770]

Thunderbirds are awesome

[@ApolloDiscGolf]

True

[@jackmehoff6302]

11x teebird cal stamp

[@1andonlyMiro]

You really sound like you're looking for a Latitude 64 Gold line Striker

[@jamesmcghee7198]

Starfire bruh!

[@sharkterritorio]

500 Plastic is legit.

[@RylzMunkister]

All anybody really needs to do is forehand a Buzzz

[@deftonesplayer420]

I throw a Roadrunner and FX-3, they are probably my farthest flying discs.

[@j.johnson8360]

I think high speed drivers are overrated