why does the Jag destroy sappers in 3 hits?

[@user-dv5qq9hv4i]

In true Source Spaghetti fashion, it's never the two sensible causes, but a third one with much deeper spaghettification

[@wrpen99]

I mean, the two "sensible" causes are based on the code straight up not doing what it's written to. This is just an unforseen interaction between two different bits of code, that makes a lot more sense than something that would be immediately tested to see if it works properly.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

y'must have a real hard time finding stuff if you find a needle out in the open and where anyone would expect to find one, and you still go "wow, this is like finding a needle in a haystack!" it's also kinda hard to imagine the "sensible" cause being that the sapper takes damage normally, since ... it doesn't. you don't damage it by whacking it, but whacking the building it's attached to, and on the player's end it doesn't so much as have "hp" as all other objects in the game, but rather "hits to destroy." absolutely nothing about this suggests that removing sappers goes through the standard damage procedures honestly, the only weird thing that this video reveals is that a sapper takes 65 damage from a normal wrench, rather than 50

[@UnlimitedRun]

@@hi-i-am-atan a wrench damaging a sapper for 65 isn't that weird IMO, because if you've ever played a spy that saps Engineer buildings, and you pay attention to your building HUD, you'll see that a sappers HP doesn't go down by 50% when hit by a non-jag wrench, based on the (imprecise) bar-based HP display for it. It goes down by more than half of the bars (IIRC it's half of the bars plus one). Though treat this whole comment with an asterisk that says If I recall correctly - its been awhile since I myself have paid attention to my Spy building HUD.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@UnlimitedRun less "weird" in the sense of "this doesn't follow suit with how it behaves" and more "weird" in the sense of "there is no real reason for it"

[@Luxuriantsama]

???

[@otsu3011]

the fact that the engi does an angry face while hitting his own sentry is very cute

[@xflasz]

Angry boi

[@jveerf8573]

@@xflasz yes Engy: *gottam*

[@purplepizzaboy]

what about the fact that spy does an angry face when his sapper is broken

[@cripplecouch1337]

stop promoting abuse

[@notapplicable9243]

disappointment

[@guscox9651]

Ok this was my favourite gaben ending so far "additon; it's hard... Its hard!"

[@redstone_orange]

I accedently skipped 10 seconds si the only thing i heard was its hard... its hard

[@MsZsc]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@jamesbryan287]

@@redstone_orange people ask you if you're fine and you say it's fine but it's not fine It's hard... It's just so hard

[@bobkinect5254]

you know whats hard? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) cry of fear i don’t even have the glock yet and i haven’t progressed due to fear and scary

[@aplimsollpunk2738]

@@jamesbryan287 "If you hard then you hard"

[@maximoberbotto1324]

I love how the Spy gets mad when the sapper gets destroyed, and subsequently places another one.

[@cowrocks3630]

"STOP REMOVING MY SAPPERS!" _as the Spy places another one._

[@eightyfoahh]

Spy when sapper: :I Spy when no sapper: >:(

[@nukkonyan]

Spy when sapping: :)

[@MystycCheez]

@@nukkonyan >:)

[@americantoastman7296]

Spy when sap Spy when has no sap

[@nukkonyan]

*hehe*

[@test4O4]

Man that is some detail

[@amaplepaladin5700]

Could you imagine if it was 4 hits for the sapper with the jag? That’d be a surefire way to ensure it never gets used again...

[@profquiz1730]

Yeah.. while it all sounds quite spaghetti-ish, I feel like Jag's three hit de-sapping is very much intentional

[@pikachubolt2001]

What do you guys mean its in its attribute it was 100% intentional to balance out because of its increased attack speed

[@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon]

It makes sense if you ask me, the Jag was design to make sentry building faster at the price of being more disposable, for that the fact that it should be harder to repair is only appropriate.

[@DoABarrelRol1l]

I’m sure the end result was intentional but surely they could have just tweaked the stats so it dealt 35 dmg a sapper swing. I doubt engies will be running around busting sentries.

[@ilikewindows3455]

The 3 hits to destroy a sapper is already painful enough, 4 and I'll just switch to using the southern hospitality and eureka effect No level of build speed will convince me to go back when I have to swing 4 times to destroy a sapper

[@Davtwan]

So from what I learned from all the sapper videos on this channel: - The wrench has its own damage for sappers which is 65. - Hitting a sapped building is still hitting the building. What happens is that secondary damage is also indirectly applied to sappers. - The secondary damage is affected by modifiers to building damage and not by general damage modifiers.

[@ExoTheFlyingFish]

Never noticed that Spy's face looks angry when his sapper is destroyed. Pretty interesting. Also, all I've learned from this channel is that the code for TF2 has been spaghetti from the start, not just over time.

[@graysongdl]

I wonder if the spy makes that face because of spaghetti code, too. Like maybe it's because spy's sapper is technically a "building", and the engie makes a similar face if his buildings are destroyed, but the difference is spy doesn't have a voice line associated with his sapper being destroyed?

[@Kabirdix]

@@graysongdl To be fair there are lots of subtle little expressions. Demoman generally has an evil smile when he’s laying down stickies

[@graysongdl]

@@Kabirdix I never knew that! I knew that they generally change expression right after swinging their melee, but I guess I've never noticed anything specific to firing other weapons.

[@Kabirdix]

@@graysongdl Yeah, they're nice little touches. Now I think about it I don't think they're that common though - most of the facial expressions will be dependent on voice line, or if taking damage or whatever. One other one I can think of though is that Heavy often smiles while firing his gun, even if he's not speaking or yelling

[@qwerty-bm5gx]

@@Kabirdix And pretty much all the classes have a sad expression when low on hp.

[@shounic]

test livestream - this Saturday, the 21st, 8 pm EST. read: kzbin.infoUgxq4bO4gepDpk9haBt4AaABCQ

[@hissingfaunaa]

Okay

[@guscox9651]

Bro it says the post isn't available

[@shounic]

@@guscox9651 hmm, i have no clue why that would happen. other people seem to be able to see it fine, but i made a pastebin mirror pastebin.com/aDZdmyeS

[@r0niii_]

A reminder to reloading cancelation. Will this get a video or will be in one of videos?

[@guscox9651]

@@shounic thank you, and the yt thing still doesn't work but prolly a me problem

[@YZYE]

Basically, we need a primary that takes sappers off with projectiles.

[@widhskxnkan1349pl]

Or possibly, a secondary

[@krakowski_6237]

Short circuit primary fire????

[@cheezkid2689]

No. That would be too powerful.

[@kylehart8829]

Add it to the rescue ranger, that weapon could really use a buff :)

[@thosebloodybadgers8499]

Imagine a secondary like that. At least it would make you use a single brain cell when choosing between it and the wrangler.

[@bucketofchicken8325]

Dunno mate but i think your about to tell us

[@supremechaosbeing2696]

he did

[@bucketofchicken8325]

No shit mate

[@pcarrierorange]

Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of science?

[@imanidiotforreplyingbut7465]

@@pcarrierorange he is a bucket of chicken

[@supremechaosbeing2696]

@Gui mer but why

[@pinochle620]

I'm impressed no one's mentioned how well edited this video is, i love this format

[@Hobobatman1000]

Broke: "Because it was designed that way to offset the weapon's positive attributes." Woke:

[@ranibro]

So how does the homewrecker work, it has the building damage bonus and it deals the same damage in enemy buildings and sappers

[@localidiotnumber792]

Because it does not have a damage bonus, which only applies to players and buildings but not sappers

[@lev7509]

The code probably only does it this way for wrenches, which would explain the constant 65 (stock wrench). Normal melee weapons (without the wrench extension) are processed differently. Pure speculation, no confirmation.

[@kylehart8829]

It works exactly the same as the jag. Its base damage (49) is not relevant when calculating damage done to buildings (including sappers). If it was, it would only deal 98 damage to buildings so it would take two hits to destroy sappers and minis (so it would be a slightly worse Neon Annihilator). Edit: didn't mention this, but the Homewrecker deals 130 damage to buildings.

[@ReviewGuy01]

Homewrecker works like this, base damage of melee + 100% damage against buildings. it does 130 dmg to sappers and buildings alike hence one hit sapper removal

[@ranibro]

@@ReviewGuy01 but that would mean that the homewrecker would do normal damage against buildings, and 100% on sappers based on what shounic said

[@pepengjelek8599]

Thumbnail: Jag destroys sappers Girl depressed

[@midnightdonutshop]

The girl is a spy Main.

[@Arch-Tau]

she is depressed because she's wondering why te jag takes 3 hits to destroy

[@dougthedonkey1805]

As an engineer main, seeing the sapper break in one hit was beautiful

[@KaygeeFromNanotrasen]

As a spy main (sometimes), it was awful

[@rute_awakening]

The jag more like the jank

[@snackermantm105]

Jag always crits

[@purplehaze2358]

1:22 How it feels to fight spies with the big earner 2:15 How it feels to fight spies with the kunai

[@alohaha-fv4di]

How it feels to deal with spies with average cringy fat and sweaty ahh loadout (letrager, kunai and deadringer): He is in the walls... *HE IS IN THE GOD DAMNED WALLS!!!!*

[@mankeil4468]

Honestly this video shows an interesting fact, but the code itself isn't problematic IMO. I actually think it's quite clever to separate the damage bonus and the damage to sappers

[@Mecceldorf]

I wouldn’t want to live in a pub where the jag breaks sappers in 4 hits.

[@MickyVideo]

Yeah it's interesting, but this time the code indeed makes sense for what it is meant to be. A simple fix would be to take in account the normal damage penalty too and increase the Jag's damage, but even then, this right now is just as intended.

[@PsychadelicoDuck]

It's jank either way, because both damage penalties get applied for buildings that aren't sappers.

[@MickyVideo]

@@PsychadelicoDuck The least jank thing to do in this case would be to add a hidden attribute about sapper damage.

[@zmaxx123321]

Or just ignore the problem and just replace the damage penalty with a damage VS PLAYERS penalty. It would not change anything, and would reflect the current behavior a lot better but would make the jag slightly better at destroying enemy buildings (which why would you do that with a jag anyway?) i dunno, just an idea

[@bruschetta7711]

Now... Imagine... If the Jag... takes 4 Goddamned hits to take off a. single. sapper. As Valve intended it to be

[@antoniotamajon2700]

This is what I was going to mention. When it was reworked I thought to myself "Oh, so you need 3 hits to kill a sapper. Well, it swings much faster so the time difference isn't *that* significant." Boy would it be a way worse wrench if it worked as intended...

[@cupofspiders5830]

Jag no-

[@Guaporacer]

this is how its intended to work tho, thats why it only considers the building damage penalty and not the normal damage penalty

[@guy_th18]

except they never intended it that way lmao

[@bruschetta7711]

@@guy_th18 from the video, at least for me, it's hard to tell if they intended all the spaghetti code for when the jag first was added, and knowing how bad they are at balancing the 4 hits to take off a sapper seems something possible

[@darkmatterpancake]

I imagine the wrench's base damage against sappers is hard coded in in case they ever gave engineer a melee weapon that did more damage than stock.

[@Bruh-jo4lb]

Shounic, love your vids. You are amazing at editing, everything looks so clean and amazingly done, Great job man. I Love seeing new videos getting posted. Thanks for such quality in your videos.

[@courier1337]

0:22 So equipping the big earner makes your health as much as a tiny radio?

[@axx1230]

3:15 look at the spy face Lmao

[@errantoverflow4828]

Got here by a random recommended video, and it turns out it's not the first time! I loved your tf2 source code comments montage and explanation. Your editing skills are amazing, I hope your channel grows, because you deserve it.

[@PoIiwag]

guy: **breaks sapper** shounic: BUT WHY? AND HOW AND WHEN AND WHY AND WHERE WHO AND WHERE? edit: Yo thanks for lots of likes props to the tf2 philosopher

[@hanzorik6215]

What in a goddamn!?

[@guy_th18]

is this humor in 2020

[@bloodeleine]

this sucks

[@GrizonII]

Honestly while it’s kind of odd now, I think this setup makes sense considering the weapon’s history. When first added, The Jag just had a 30% faster construction rate and 25% damage penalty, which would have led to it having taken 3 hits to destroy sappers if damage penalties affected them. Since that’d make it pretty awful (IIRC the early versions of the Jag are generally regarded as pretty weak even with 2 hit unsapping) it’d make sense for the generic damage modifiers not to affect sappers, as then it’d be easier to have a wrench with modified damage without risking completely ruining it. Eventually after various changes the Jag became too good, so it was nerfed by making it take 3 hits to unsap. I presume the damage to buildings modifier was first made to affect sappers when the Homewrecker gained the ability to destroy sappers (a few months before the Jag was added I think), at which point they had decided that the Homewrecker should take off sappers in one hit and, rather than adding a whole extra attribute just for that, just added that functionality to the existing building damage stat that was already on it. So when the Jag was nerfed, they simply reused the same property of the building damage attribute, while leaving the rest of the stats as is. This is probably kind of rambly and it’s mostly conjecture anyway, but that’s just my thoughts on the topic.

[@solisortus6241]

this guy is basically the tf2 version of 3kliksphillip

[@jurrasicore8682]

so i think the reason it uses a baked in 65 dmg in calculations is from maybe a time when dmg spread effected buildings and was larger, so that sappers would always get broken in two hits. it also makes sense that the jag has a hidden building dmg nerf so that it effects sappers the way you would expect it to with its dmg nerf

[@arcticfluffyfoxy]

I would've expected the jag to do more damage because you know it's got a massive spike on the end

[@DoABarrelRol1l]

Now I want a wrench that deals 250% dmg to buildings ‘to destroy sappers’ but actually use it for uberded pushes against enemy sentries.

[@null3319]

Shounic should recieve the Finder's Fee (bug report hat) Change my mind

[@the643]

Well, he’s just pointing things out/answering questions usually with some sort of client assist.

[@the643]

Not showing game breaking bugs.

[@masterdeetectiv9520]

The things he shows are already known, he just explains them

[@bqgin]

Does this also apply to pyro weapons that can remove sappers?

[@PeaLover]

1:25 and 3:15 I like how the Spy gets visibly agitated when you destroy his Sapper.

[@jveerf8573]

"That's its a new mechanic for Heavy update?"

[@AMainProductions]

It's funny that the jag has a damage penalty even through it looks like it can do WAY more damage then the stock

[@ExclamationMarx]

Your videos are always a pleasure to watch & very relaxing. Thank you

[@awe9217]

one of the things i love about shounic is how their thumbnails look like grandiose shitposts featuring tf2

[@lost5006]

Explains why the home wrecker for pyro melee can destroy sappers in a single attack.

[@samuelalphabet5360]

I think this is the first shounic video I've seen where the way the thing works is pretty much exactly how I expected it to.

[@Randoman590]

I'm glad it works this way. If I had to take 4 swings to break a sapper instead of 3, I would never use the Jag again.

[@jveerf8573]

enginner gaming time

[@Vin_C0]

engineer gaming

[@Thornskade]

I never knew that these penalties were supposed to be in addition to one another. Truth be told, I never tried to hit an enemy building with a Jag. Yeah I know. Crazy.

[@jackeea_]

"The basic fundamental functions of a melee weapon; such as unlimited swings, and a limited range". Demoknights? Limited range!? Are we playing the same game here; I've been hit from across the room by more swords than I can count

[@Thornskade]

It seems the only people who play Demoknight are the ones with 70 - 200 ping.

[@ilikewindows3455]

Don't forget the edgy spy mains that abused cl_interp and facestabbed people from across the map

[@VMan_2002]

conclusion: the sword is not a melee weapon

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

What you see on a server is NEVER what actually happened as everything already happened due to travel time, you live 1 second in the past but move as if your in the future. When you're dead you always live on your end for a short time longer then then everyone else sees. During this time nothing you do matters. You've never been hit across the room by swords. You just didn't realize you're dead till they made it across the room.

[@SireForseti]

@@Buglin_Burger7878 damn that last sentence is fucking COOL.

[@blukat9903]

they say playing engineer is emotional just look at the spys face when you destroy his sapper it's like he is filled with rage because you kill his little child and the only thing in he wants in his life is revenge #sapper_lifes_matter

[@justfrankjustdank2538]

the pastafarians could have never predicted the tf2 source engine

[@benjaminoechsli1941]

I looked at the 33% damage penalty against buildings and thought, "Sappers are "buildings" with 100 health. That penalty means the Jag would need one extra hit." And it did. Never considered the idea that it should stack with the damage penalty against players, or that other buildings wouldn't work the same way, since I would always use my primary to destroy other Engies' stuff. Crazy. 🍝

[@ironencepersonal9634]

"If I hit an enemy player or building, no damage is dealt" Spy: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

[@CygnusLaboratorys2056]

gabe's right addition really is hard cuz I understood none of this

[@bryannaing6316]

Only just realised that Spy frowns every time his sapper gets broken

[@alohaha-fv4di]

2:16 this footage makes me happy

[@LeoSRL300]

This is one of the few channels that still constantly uploads interesting TF2 videos.

[@ridori7376]

Pybro: Wait you guys have to hit it more than once?

[@TeaSlurp_SDH]

I think it was done by accident, but left in intentionally

[@ghobleen]

I always thought it's because of the '-20% slower repair speed' thing.

[@stormtrooper2334]

Engineer Gaming

[@jveerf8573]

Engy outsmart bullets

[@stormtrooper2334]

@@jveerf8573 Yes.

[@stormtrooper2334]

@@jveerf8573 Yes.

[@AtomicBlazee]

Jag with 4 hit to sap, Engie main be like : "Nope"

[@nathaniely3678]

really great video, good work man

[@TempestKrimps]

huh, i thought it could've been due to a rounding error but this makes more sense

[@Aetharn]

I love how the spy is called Sphee. Jerma is great

[@Flamehazard]

I absolutely love your videos, like wow, I barely play tf2 now but these are mesmerising lol

[@buiducanh4355]

You’re content is very similar to 3kphllips, which is why I love it.

[@blast9136]

Your videos are pretty cool because they come out when I have lunch

[@jeremytheimer7443]

"unlimited swings and unlimited range" I see what your getting at there.

[@Ash-zm1vx]

Wow that was... exactly what I thought it was. (Using jag a lot I noticed the building damage being applied separately)

[@ray_0147]

1:25 Spy: A N G E R

[@TARINunit9]

This explains why the Jag, on launch, still broke sappers in two hits

[@ChronoSquare]

I used to be friends with the guy that made the Jag model. It was so hype that update we found it in the game files, but not yet implemented.

[@Boooiiiiii]

I love how spy gets angry when engie destry le sapper

[@williamrosenberg8382]

Epic nae nae moment

[@plantelo]

I love your thumbnails

[@Jfrost9101]

So basically, this can be explained by saying "65 damage is hard-coded into the sapper's damage taken, so only building damage affects it". Oh well, it keeps the Jag balanced, I ain't complaining

[@Rumins-ja09s]

That would probably explain the reason the homewrecker does more damage to buildings

[@frickerspirits82]

I don’t play TF2 but the incredibly high quality of your vids I just have to subscribe

[@invenblocker]

Pretty sure it being 3 hits instead of 4 is somewhat intentional, given that I recall the patch notes when they nerfed the dang thing saying "it now takes three hits to remove a sapper".

[@BigJay_]

3:25 when your step sis ask what youre doing in the bathroom for 30 minutes

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Those Gaben edits at the end are the best part of the videos 😄

[@BlueOysterWizard99]

0:33 Spy didn't like that

[@IAm-zo1bo]

I love these vids do you still have more planned?

[@mtbradanox6735]

“+1000% damage vs player buildings -100% damage vs players” Imagine this in the game. Valve should hire you

[@kirbles2035]

You are easily the best TF2 youtuber and I've been watching TF2 stuff for over 5 years

[@AGuyThatTellsStories]

I love how big tf2 is and how small this problem is

[@Trainboyz1.]

the most simplest answer to any bug in TF2 is *S O U R C E J A N K*

[@Alusion94]

engineer

[@tTaseric]

The fact it takes an extra hit to destroy sappers is pretty much the only reason why stock is still viable

[@ironeyes4882]

Your videos are incredibly interesting!!!!

[@waaave564]

i think this is overall because the sapper isn't exactly defined as a building, and can only be applied to sort of anchor onto buildings, which maybe changes the building's script code. doing 3 hits with the jag to anything that isn't a building does 147 damage, so i do believe that the sapper is most likely considered to be a script changer in the code, while also being performed as a weapon. sort of similar to the destruction panel, but different. the sapper is a weapon that has a damage that has a base of 0 and is multiplied by 0 if i am correct, and i believe that the sapper, on buildings, simply changes the script of the dispenser to lose health overtime until the building is hit 3 times. with the destruction panel, it's not listed as a weapon, but it is still actively used. it has a base damage of 0, and is multiplied by 0, if again, i am correct. it probably changes the script for a building to be destroyed in a fashion which doesn't appear in the kill feed.

[@cal2395]

Guess I have a new talent now, I can hear spy screams when he gets hit even if no sounds are applied.

[@mohammaddanendrasetiawan9998]

Maybe the TF2 developers just left that coding out on the Jag because 4 hits to kill a sapper is pretty stupid.

[@sniperisdemoman]

Homewrecker explanation is required now

[@natte8470]

Dispenser

[@lehonkerque7398]

It is because the last hit was alway a crit to the sappers

[@staliniumsimulator1084]

Gaben: it's hard Me: that's what she said

[@memelobby0]

sapper 10th character confirmed

[@robotfuture2004]

jag- 3 words- 3 hits

[@wizardmagic1580]

Also check out dom's video kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqDEXoyghaumb80&ab_channel=s4videos

[@thetsarofall8666]

We all know that the jag is the superior melee weapon option for engie. As in the great words of the engie mains of yore...... "The jag always crits"

[@ISELLSALT]

i didnt even know sappers had hp, i always thought its just a swing count

[@ImGlassy]

Love that the spy is called sphee