Why Dugtrio is not broken in ADV OU

[@McMeghan]

Excellent video as always! I think one thing you absolutely should have mentionned regarding Dugtrio's power level in later gens is the access to Focus Sash. Makes switching into some Pokémons 100% safe, and also means that survival benchmarks don't matter anymore if Dug is in a 1v1 where it's fully healthy. As for ADV, I truely believe that the meta would be a lot more stally if it wasn't for Dug, boosting the viability of a ton of Pokémons but mainly defensively, so it's probably there for the better at the end of the day.

[@disasterarea9341]

interestingly i heard people arguing that actually dug enables a lot of stall structures (tbf they're not wrong) so maybe dug makes adv more stally than anything. i think ADV OU w dug is an interesting meta, and that ADV OU without it would definitely be pretty different. i dont think i'd say it's *not* broken but metas w broken mons can still be a lot of fun (e.g. many ubers tiers). ADV OU is a lot of fun but dug's presence is definitely one of the things that makes me more dissatisfied w the tier and look for other things to play.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

@@disasterarea9341 it goes both ways. dugtrio can trap offensive mons that would destroy stall or take out a weakened all that an offensive core can’t break.

[@elmago2808]

This video has a Jirachi killing a heatran from 59% with just iron head flinches. jesus christ

[@ShinyTillDawn]

that wasn't enough for that trainer :\

[@elmago2808]

@@ShinyTillDawn yeah, but still. My god

[@U4eUh]

Was that a kings rock on jirachi wtf??

[@Jdelgrego1212]

@@U4eUh nah it had to be scarfed cuz heatran was at +1 speed already 😭

[@funkymachine]

It's way worse in gen 4

[@IschmarVI]

2:40 Jirachi being jirachi

[@marinaaaa2735]

Gen 1 wrap vibes

[@wizard5552]

Flinch flinch flinch flinch

[@irakyl]

I could not focus on his point about bad magnet pull comparisons when Jirachi got 6 flinches in a row, a 5% chance

[@Akiironzo]

4.67% chance.

[@avet4952]

Absolute pain of the jirachi flinching the tran god

[@jimothycool]

Gen 3 OU, where trappers are great for metagame health

[@cyburger7257]

JimCool

[@melanie735]

So true, Jimothy.

[@popnpets8022]

Ah yes j

[@pranavmahendran5982]

Also LC.

[@hiei49]

Not ALL of them

[@IgnitedQuils]

With the comparison of Dugtrio and Magnezone; Magnezone only traps steel types and with its limited movepool and low speed, it won’t always eliminate all the relevant steels. So it is balanced. Dugtrio’s coverage is much better due to Rock+Ground coverage and most of the metagame being grounded. Plus its base 120 speed which is almost unmatched, and it can have Focus Sash, Choice Band, etc. Not very strong but can be overbearing. And what you mentioned with the Gen 3 metagame is a good explanation of how it can be stopped, such as Breloom and Celebi. Especially since it won’t break through well crafted teams.

[@exiathomas2114]

Yeah plus mag with endure and hidden power grass makes work of it too. Since dug normally comes out after you kill their skarm

[@loganfedders508]

I like the commentary at around 12:00 that talks about duggy in the hazard meta. It made me realize that all the metas where dug is overwhelming is where stealth rocks are omnipresent. I haven't really played any of the tiers past gen 3 but it made me curious how big of a role rocks chipping both dug weak mons to supplement dug's mediocre attack and chipping the primary dug answers in flying types particularly hard played into dug being banned in gen 4 onward.

[@SolidBones]

I love when Dougie switches in to my CB Tar Rockslide and forcibly removes him while yelling "BINGOOOOO" Glad to be here in the twin peaks / pokemon fan cross section

[@aliveisuppose]

TLDR: Dugtrio eliminating something in gen 3 doesn't auto win like in gens 4+, and the dugtrio answers do other things as well (In gen 3)

[@syah7991]

Dugtrio got an extra 20 base points to its attack stat in gen 7, making it stronger!

[@ShinyTillDawn]

it's also in PU

[@DantinozMC]

yes but arena trap is banned lol

[@reverie9358]

surprised you didn't mention team preview, i think that's a noteworthy factor in dug's strength in newer metas.

[@santasangre996]

care to elaborate?

[@thefinalskarm1754]

@@santasangre996 If you see what you can trap, its "well they have to switch to Heatran here or I can auto-win" (hypothetical) so I know they have Heatran, I can more reasonably assume I can throw out Dugtrio here. I've absolutely destroyed gen 4 games (albeit on a ladder reset) pre arena trap ban on just knowing how teams could be handling my upcoming pokemon and Dugtrio and Mag were STAR players in victory due to their control of locking opponents out.

[@butteredsalmonella]

@@santasangre996 Predicting a switch is essentially much easier with your opponent's team visible, helping you accumulate double switches in a more effective way than going completely blind.

[@santasangre996]

thx guys👍

[@Loris71734]

But also preview let’s your opponent know you have a dugtrio and gives them the opportunity to play around it. In ADV you can often figure out if they have dug but in gen 4 with it being less common and not really having certain archetypes it was impossible to play around

[@batatino8805]

The first game with iron head flinch, christ

[@Joshuaskehan-mk8cj]

I love scarf iron head jirachi, so much skill involved in winning a loosing matchup by flinching them 10 million billion quadrillion times

[@xy394]

0:40 "Because it doesn't matter how many positive qualities something has if its broken" Laughs in Weavile and Dragapult after the Magearna ban

[@tdawgmaster1729]

Weavile and Dragapult were broken after Magearna ban? Fooled me

[@munchrai6396]

Love how thorough this video is. I love how well the 2 battles from different generations juxtapose each other and how every contributing factor from rocks, to damaging pivot moves are covered in this video. Focus Sash is really the only point that was missed, but even then, it's a small thing compared to how comprehensive a comparison this video creates. While I still think that video is decent, I'd much prefer this format to False Swipes format when comparing overarching mechanics like Baton Pass between gen 2/3 and other generations

[@ectoboggan4732]

That was one of the vids I wanted the most, tysm BKC

[@isnanesavant]

Before I watch i wanna guess: there's a lot less threats that it you pick off 1 mon that entitirely sweep teams, so duggy getting one dude wasn't as game shattering (ie I imagine, doug taking out a permanent weather guy is basically gg if you have your own alternate weather, but in Earlier gens pokemon weren't as strong Stat wise overall)

[@isnanesavant]

Like. Dugtrio trapping a guy, whatever, duggy trapping one guy then Gem Boost killing something else as well? That's likely over the edge

[@paz8723]

Imagine ADV OU without arena trap some pokemon would just run wild

[@ScLuigi]

"it doesn't matter how many positive qualities something has if it's broken" gsc lax

[@justinhanna9152]

have you considered doing a video on the history of choice items?

[@cherryb0ng]

Nice Twin Peaks reference in the thumbnail

[@jcnot9712]

If I saw that battle without context, I would say ctc was the guy haxing with Jirachi lol

[@kirbykidsmith]

im convinced dougie jones is just lynch trolling

[@kirbymontrey3897]

Not having u turn/volt switch is huge cause dug can't just get in for free

[@keiharris332]

D...did you just ask us to call for help? Triple switch if you need the police.

[@gerardperezservent9066]

2:40 Scarf Jirachi moment.

[@pavango3812]

I think a similar argument could be made about little cup but I haven’t played enough of that to be certain

[@santasangre996]

dugtrio is the mon you hate to see on the opponent's side but when you use it you feel the pressure and heart beat going up

[@kala__362]

You did mention the free turn you get after one of your Pokemon gets trapped but I was a bit surprised you didn't mention DD Sala coming in on that (I think). Thought that was the classic example of the revenge killer there.

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

ddmence was definitely mentioned at least once

[@kala__362]

@@BKCplaysPokemon My bad then

[@breloommaster12]

I haven't finished the video, but I will assume that "no team preview" and "relatively less power creep" makes Arena Trap not as consistently rewarding and not as lopsided of an advantage to have in Gen 3

[@sheeplol2161]

no team preview also benefitted dug as you can have a +1 ttar then dug comes in

[@olliert4840]

I think the metagame would be a lot less varied without trappers, both dug and mag. There are a lot of team structures which just don't even exist in later gens, and some are based around the trappers.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

so basically, what i’m hearing, is that dugtrio is actually a very good test for how balanced a meta dare i say it, is dugtrio the ultimate litmus test to see what pokémon may need suspect testing? also, call me crazy, but it sounds like dugtrio is more “win faster” card. mons that steam roll the meta and “auto win” don’t necessarily need dugtrio to remove the key hurdle. dug just makes it easier with the trapping. so, i kinda wanna say that dugtrio should never be banned in the same way ditto should never be banned: it’s only as powerful as the thing it copies, or in dug’s case, enables. you even say it yourself, dugtrio is more of an “enhancer”. a win more card

[@JforJonas]

Your microphone is heavily distorting due to too high gain as some have mentioned already. The video topic is very interesting though, and if you want help from someone with a degree in audio just lmk and I'm happy to help you out.

[@ImortalZeus13]

Please for the love of god BKC, do something about your audio to keep the mic from peaking and catching your lip smacking.

[@toonlink1723]

virgins ‘team’ vs the chad dugtrio

[@H3nzWatermess]

Great video!

[@matiasaraya5451]

Dugtrio is a tulpa confirmed

[@judgeofarchetypes6103]

You know I'm rather curious, how would gen 3 ou be like, if it had the physical special split?

[@ShinyTillDawn]

oh baby

[@yeet8036]

Gengar being capable using its ghost stab is scary

[@spinodude123]

Great video as always

[@LeafGreen906]

shoutout porygon2

[@soma467]

Scarf Jirachi can be digusting

[@alliedmussel1011]

So like as someone who thinks that dug/arena trap too strong because of the things that it enables in these later generations AND who agrees with banning arena trap: what would you say to someone who would say to that “ok well then it sounds like the real issue is these guys here, why aren’t we talking about them instead of dugtrio? If pex/heatran/ttar/other dug weak mon (with an item that isn’t shed shell) are overwhelmingly needed in order to not insta-lose to these guys, why are we not focusing on the guys causing the insta-lose instead of the guy who can allow teams to force progress against each other?” Wonderful video overall

[@MagikarpPower]

its easier to ban dug than a dozen other things

[@butteredsalmonella]

Gen 3 OU, with 100% less Heatran!

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

so if i understand your argument, in gen 3, it’s impossible to create super teams that would steam roll the meta if not for 1 or 2 mons that duggy could trap. but in gen 4+ it has been? and so historically, we’ve just been banning dugtrio and letting all these offensive checks counter each other instead of banning the offensive threats so that trapping doesn’t matter?

[@typhlosion7872]

Finally here as soon as the link was uploaded to the Discord. Been waiting for this video for years. Call me AZ because it feels like the specific amount of years has been 10,000

[@Brofesional]

Okay you said no matter how many positives it doesn’t matter if it’s broken. How do you defend snorlax in gen 1.

[@Dragostorm21]

Gen 1 is broken, what is one more broken thing?

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

you mean gen 2?

[@crissullivan8404]

Because when it boils down to it the first and second generation are extremely pre-established metas before smogon was a thing. The likelihood of them doing anything significant to those metas is really sparse. Snorlax is the best mon in gen 2, but its existence keeps a lot of good Pokémon in check and if it weren't for Lax, the meta would be even more stall focused.

[@isnanesavant]

Douggy, walk with me

[@PokeMaster22222]

3:19 How is sun still up? This is Gen 6 or 7, right? Ninetales' Drought should not produce infinite sun.

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

it's bw

[@PokeMaster22222]

@@BKCplaysPokemon You can use 3D models in BW and older battles? Huh, I didn't know that.

[@Mushrooms683]

Why isn't arena trap banned from little cup? Diglet is like top 2.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

Who runs beat up in gen 3? I know it's type less, but still.

[@BKCplaysPokemon]

it's the standard for guaranteeing a 2hko on blissey and not being vulnerable to counter

[@ShinyTillDawn]

@@BKCplaysPokemon I thought beat up uses the user's Sp Atk stat.

[@melanie735]

Beat Up has a very complicated mechanic in gen 3, it attacks based on the base atk of your mons and damages based on the base defense of your opponent, so it happens to easily destroy Blissey

[@melanie735]

@Nauts yeah, kinda does

[@emmetstanevich2121]

@vNauts Technically speaking, Beat Up is effectively a typeless move, similar to Struggle. Despite technically being a dark-type move, it uses physical attack/defense, ignores the target's type, and doesn't give STAB when used by a dark-type.

[@kenshiro8984]

despite all that, game freak still decided to increase duggy's atk in gen 7 lol

[@TheNadroj10]

Glad they did, 80 wouldn’t have cut it forever thanks to power creep and makes dugtrio far more powerful ingame

[@AnvilPro100]

Anyone filtered by Dougie Jones gets a big "No" from me, yo

[@ryanborn7026]

diglet too stronk

[@Scourge728]

I think arena trap should be allowed for trapinch specifically. If you can get trapinch working in OU I say you should be allowed to. It won't happen.

[@alectronic5199]

whats adv ou exactly? what is the difference from ou?

[@disasterarea9341]

it is a different generation. so it is based on the game mechanics, legal pokemon, and so on from gen 3 ("advanced" like the gameboy advice), where ruby/sapphire/emerald/etc. were the games on cartridge

[@emptywisdoms]

"call for help" ???

[@A_quip]

I thought I was the only one

[@pappy2690]

Yes I enjoyed ty

[@studentloans2488]

Sorry BKC but I think trapping is the most awful mechanic in competitive pokemon. Feel free to disagree, you are infinitely better at comp pokemon than I am, but this is my most hated mechanic. It deserves the Baton Pass treatment.

[@ShinyTillDawn]

that's why Wynaut and their evo are ubers & PU simultaneously

[@disasterarea9341]

some decent players (i.e. me) definitely agree w that assessment. still, ADV OU w dug is *fine*, it's not game-shattering but it is a mechanic i hate and it defo makes me look for other metas to play. thing is also broken metas can still be fun (e.g. ubers in many gens) and i consider adv ou a bit like that, some things are a bit busted but it's still a good time.

[@orlandotill]

Because the gen 3 players are used to dug and don’t care. Just like how lax isn’t banned in Gen 2, because the players remaining don’t care

[@maymorales8938]

Man do u realize how awful and stally the gen 3 and 2 metagames would be if dugtrio and snorlax respecitvely were banned? it'd be awful lol.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

@@maymorales8938 pls elaborate. dug traps both offensive and defensive mons so why does it make stall only better?

[@maymorales8938]

@@fulltimeslackerii8229 my mistake not stall. It def helps keep full on offense in check and without it shit like DDance Tar and CB Gross became way more difficult to handle.

[@HowlingOneify]

Lax isn't banned because it isn't broken. Why do people like you insist on commenting on metagames you don't play?

[@orlandotill]

@@HowlingOneify pot of Greed isn't broken yet it is banned

[@FreezingMocha]

tauros in ADV OU.

[@jayplay8869]

Do melmetal… and how it breaks let’s go. Lol I know. No one cares. But I’d be nice.

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

finally!

[@disasterarea9341]

honestly I disagree but I wouldn't ban it - I think ADV OU is fun/playable enough, and it has far too much history. ubers tiers show that broken tiers can still be very enjoyable anyway. i would be interested in seeing what a meta with arena trap and magnet pull banned and latias freed would look like and see what would need to be banned from that point that's broken, but there is no way in a million years that's happening in OU x)

[@TheSprinkler]

Actually dugtrio is broken

[@fulltimeslackerii8229]

how thorough a counterargument!

[@cactu]

bkc

[@T.Miller1234]

Gain too high on voiceover, lots of clipping. difficult on the ears

[@N4N0_21]

The answer is simple of why dug is fine in ADV. Dug is only broken on stall teams because it stops the offensive threats that destroy them (outside of Gen 5). In Gen 3 OU stall is the most common type of team and it's the most defensive meta game out of every gen OU. Other gens want offense to actually be good and it's not in Gen 3 so dug is fine because it's not broken against other stall teams.

[@dudhobo5820]

I think gen 2 is more defensive because of everyone having max bulk and leftovers everywhere

[@Nadid_Dhrabb]

Gen 3 is not the most defensive by a long shot lmao That being said I don't actually play it so I can't comment on the stall part

[@vulpes6523]

It's not a stall gen lmao

[@N4N0_21]

Gen 2 isn't that defensive, boom teams have an argument to be the best style of team while TSS (a stall team in its truest sense) is the defacto team of ADV.

[@Alexcoman51]

You’re thinking of GSC gen 3 doesn’t have that much stall outside those Milotic claydol teams

[@BeeEmpress]

Ratio

[@BeeEmpress]

@@Kuch303 10 days late reply I win