Why The Duggars, And Millions Of Other Baptists, Were Deceived By Bill Gothard

Amazon Prime's newest docuseries, Shiny Happy People, dives deep into the Duggars, IBLP, and Bill Gothard. Todd Friel explains why Gothard was so successful in bamboozling millions and how you can avoid being deceived too.
Wretched TV and Radio are hosted by Todd Friel. On the show, you will see and hear live witnessing encounters, discussions of tough theological issues, and Christian commentary on current events. We might even make you laugh.
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[@MsQ275]

This reminds me a lot of the Mormon cult I survived. Sadly, I turned to atheism for many years to cope with that abuse.... I'm saved now and am so grateful God pulled me in but sometimes I'm sad for all the lost decades of unGodly living. I really feel for the children caught in this Gothard world.

[@Mracelocates]

Do not let Satan steal what Romans 8.28 promises you! Plus you can comfort as no one else can because (like Paul said) you can comfort with the comfort God gave to you when you were tricked and kicked around. You are the better for the journey even though it was miserable at the time. Blessings to you! He has never lost one of His sheep!

[@loriwhinery3210]

Thank the Lord that the Mormon church didn’t completely ruin you. I’m thankful the Lord never gave up on you!. That Mormon cult is so destructive and does a lot of damage in peoples lives!

[@jordanpease3329]

I was also raised Mormon and was reminded of the teaching styles and practices that are used in Mormonism by this documentary as well. Like you, I turned to ideologies of the world for a while after I left but I, as a mortal man, was not capable of stopping God's plan for me. He called me by name and my history and a legalistic church as well as my history of rebellion against religion could not keep me from his mighty call. God bless you my friend!

[@geneanuts]

I studied the LDS church years ago. Very masonic also. Thankful you have the true Lord Jesus now!😊

[@justinmayfield6579]

It does sound like Mormonism!

[@jodyward3790]

"Obedience is not your protector. God is." Excellent. Thank you, Todd.

[@myfatherisgreater120]

Jesus said the greatest faith He saw in all of Israel was the Roman centurion who understood the authority Jesus operated in In obedience to His Father. Mr Gothard didn't teach blind obedience, I have everyone of IBLP materials. He is being wrongly misrepresented and slandered without full defense .

[@mombradshaw5528]

If we love Jesus, we will obey Him. God is our protector and Father....but just like any love relationship, if we love someone, then we want to do what they want.. Nothing God tells us to obey is to hurt us.. it's to protect.

[@mombradshaw5528]

​@@myfatherisgreater120Thank you very much. I was one of the rebellious teenagers and nothing good came from it.Even so, I knew the whole time the difference between good/ bad. As far as I went into the world, I still knew that MrGothard loved The Lord..and I knew that I was wrong. If people don't see grace being taught,then it's something with them, because it definitely was there.

[@marymack1]

The mixture of truth with lies is the deadliest cocktail.

[@betty3107]

So true

[@SergiuM42]

Absolutely

[@Howtowithpaulaandjohn]

Carefully chosen truth and certain kinds of lies.

[@mattstutzman1662]

Yep.

[@jkdm7653]

The most dangerous lie is a "half truth".

[@LeeLeeB5]

I was a young woman, 26, when I attended his ‘event’. (Am now almost 72) It was “THE event” to attend back then if you were a Christian, besides Billy Graham Crusades. When, however, I felt unsettled about what I was hearing, and rejected much of what was said at the Gothard event, I was ostracized by my Christian friends I had known since I was a teen. I no longer felt welcome in Christian circles, nor in this world. With Christians, I was the ‘wrong kind’, (?), and with the world, I was ‘too Christian’. Painful! And for years I wondered about my own salvation, though I knew I loved the Lord with all my heart. I still do, even though my ‘walk’ through the years has been rocky. The Lord is so good, however, and never let me go. 🙌🙌 He has, especially in the past few years, brought me closer to Him, increasing my understanding of His Word, assuring me of His Love. I listen to Pastor MacArthur(since the late 70s), Paul Washer, Justin Peters, a few others, and feel a new deep hunger to know even more about God’s Word. I now have that blessed assurance, Jesus IS mine❣️ I am so thankful to Him❤️🙏❤️ Btw, I enjoy your videos. Thank you💕

[@triumphantsoul9075]

Don't John MacArthur, Paul Washer and Justin Peters teach modesty and authority too though?

[@mkl2237]

You shared a very personal story. God bless you.

[@kylej.d.]

@@triumphantsoul9075yes and so does the Bible, the difference is the emphasis, extent and distortion involved in Gothard's teachig

[@JaxesGame]

Yes we are all works in progress. Father finishes that which he starts. 1st John 5:3 if we love God we will keep His commands. If we are following Jesus we will try to do is he did. Are we going to be perfect no. We are told the best will still be filthy rags. If you really want to know more about the Bible and a lot of things you've never actually understood I really like Michael Rood a Rood Awakening😊 maybe try Raiders of the Lost book Nehemiah Gordon is Jesus cousin on his mom's side😂 he calls Jesus Yeshua the Christian Rabbi

[@saved217]

@@triumphantsoul9075 What's a wrong with modesty? Authority? Yes. To God. Both, biblical.

[@atonementandreconciliation3749]

Modesty, authority, masculinity, and femininity are all biblical. The problem happens when they become hyper-focus, and over-prioritized.

[@JohnathanBach]

Absolutely agree. Todd, of course, doesn’t seem to think too highly of “fundamentalist Baptists” to begin with. For the benefit of all who read this, Gothard’s influence definitely transcended fundamental Baptist churches, and also most fundamental Baptists did not subscribe to his teachings also. So…

[@Christinme4ever]

The problem is when you use God's word as a means to try to control and manipulate people.

[@valentinadallas]

Well said

[@gowest5145]

No the real problem is the false churches. These people are all in false churches. The Baptist were false when they attended Bill's seminar. When you are in a false religion you aren't going to get free by going to a seminar somewhere. You have to repent a lot to get free.

[@mombradshaw5528]

​@@Christinme4ever He never did that. He certainly didn't use wealth to his own benefit.

[@ulusalani]

I really liked Ravi Zacharias; he always had really cute and meaningful stories to tell. And I listened to all his videos I could find. Then he died and the truth came out. I was stunned. But he was exactly the kind of preacher that Todd talked about: a preacher with hundreds of stories but no Bible teaching. I won't get fooled by another like that again.

[@chriscravens8318]

Ravi was a serial rapist.

[@RbsReflection]

Regarding Ravi, they aren't sure about the allegations brought against him were true. I confess I believed that about him without investigation for myself and that was wrong. Please 🙏 prayerfully do your own research. We are living in troubled times. God bless you

[@ulusalani]

@@RbsReflection "they aren't sure about the allegations brought against him were true." Yes, they are. "In their release of the full report, the board of RZIM stated that it was "shocked and grieved by Ravi's actions", and apologized to his victims..." "A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than a decade while the ministry led by his family members and loyal allies failed to hold him accountable." Go read what is own ministry now says about his actions.

[@Mitzi73]

I am still traumatized by Ravi Zacharias. I did love him too. I trusted him. I went to see him speak. I didn’t know anything about his personal life. When he was on his death bed I prayed for him and was sad. Then I heard John MacArthur talking smack about Ravi and realized that there was something I didn’t know. MacArthur is careful about his words and deed so I knew I had to pay attention here. Then everything came out.

[@daniellecruz2917]

​@@RbsReflectionthere absolutely is proof his own daughters made a public statement admitting his guilt and apologies were given to the victims

[@clintonstubbs2319]

I’ve heard of Bill Gothard but I grew up in the black church which was weak in a lot of ways. No real strong basis in the Bible but a lot of religion and racial idolatry. I am saved now but I could see why some liked Bill Gothard. I thought the Duggars seemed more devout than what I saw growing up and when I went to college. I don’t care for a lot of the different things I have seen in many churches since I’ve been saved but I study the Bible for myself and am in a solid church now.

[@JesusistheonetrueGod]

I grew up in churches that were either dead or too charismatic. At some point my dad got wrapped up into the prosperity gospel as it is to this day. I have tried to get him out of it, but he stubbornly refuses to leave. I haven't yet found a solid church, but I intend to try a new one this weekend.

[@TheRealQuartKnee]

Gothard arrived on the scene when the culture was all about sex, drugs, and rock and roll. It seemed a good antidote (at the time) and Gothard took full advantage.

[@joannetompkins7833]

The Duggars do understand salvation by grace through faith unlike many who got involved in this cult. Jinger Duggar talks about it in her book. She had a real salvation experience as a teenager and that is what keep her from deconstructing into atheism or agnosticism when she realised how wrong BG's teachings were.

[@mombradshaw5528]

Actually, Mr.Gothard took me to my baptism at Ravensbrook, an all black church that his good friend was the pastor of. Mr. Gothard is nothing like what this man is saying, at all. He knew what grace was and walked the talk.

[@jennier135]

Was he involved in abuse?

[@scottishwarrior85]

I grew up in the Gothard cult. My mom still has binders and books (that need to be used to start my grill, its the only thing they are worth using for) that she won't get rid of. That legalism was so bad that I thought I was saved at lest 2 different times, as a child and then as an adult. But the fruit was not there. It wasn't until 2020 when I received a regenerated heart from the Lord. I knew Bill personally and talked with him on many, many occasions. My wife and her family were also involved in the program. She went worked at the HQ, I attended the Life Focus program at the Indianapolis IN training center where I worked at the front desk over night on "security" which was nothing more than monitoring the front and side doors to make sure the juvenile delinquents did not escape. I can 100% confirm that there was never any teachings of the gospel of Christ in that program. Team leaders would refuse to answer basic questions about the bible when we were having our morning devotion time. I legit had questions and they would refuse to answer them. My family spent almost every summer in the 90s at the main conf in Knoxville TN. 20,000 families duped by that wolf in sheep's clothing. In the mid 90s we moved back to the ATL and joined a church that was almost 100% part of the cult. If you were not in the cult then you were shunned! The reason that so many people were at that church was because most families had 8+ kids. My family was more of the black sheep in the program because we had TV and my parents couldn't be consistent with the strict rules placed on us. They did try... It was a crazy roller coaster of inconsistency. My mom's greatest regret is not being able to be an ideal ATI family. My parents ended up getting a divorce 2 years ago after 29yrs of marriage. My dad cheated on my mom because my mom wanted him to meet every single expectation that she had and at the bottom of it all, Christ was not the center of their lives. My older sister is pretty scared as I think most of the girls were. Girls were treated oddly because they were taboo but yet the main goal of being at a training center was to hopefully find a spouse. I came out with scratches, and nothing really more than just being shunned because I couldn't and wouldn't conform to all of their ridiculous rules. I'm glad I was homeschooled I wouldn't change that for anything and I do believe that Christian's should NOT put their children in the public school system. Voddie Baucham would say: "if you send your kids to Rome, don't be surprised when they come back Romans." All of my children are homeschooled, but they are taught the saving grace of Jesus Christ and that their dad is not perfect and he (I) need Jesus every day just as much as they do. God is merciful. He is good. And HE is the ONLY way to Salvation!! Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fida, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria!

[@southbug27]

It sounds like you’ve still got a lot of Gothard left in you. It’s very Gothard to blame anything negative on girls & women; divorce is almost never due to the actions of one person unless one spouse is violent, abusive, etc. I’m guessing that both parents are responsible for the divorce, & your father has fed you attacks on your mother to get you on his side, which is called parental alienation.

[@mombradshaw5528]

We lived in the Knoxville area (Oak Ridge/Oliver Springs) My big brother worked years w the Moscow ministry and ALERT. I can't lie, I loved the Knoxville conference lol

[@mombradshaw5528]

​@@southbug27Umm...not quite. He was only saying that their mother thought she had to be perfect and it brought a wedge between them. The father's sin was not left out... Unless you and your family was in ATIA, then you don't know what they are meaning fully, no offense to you.

[@ldpetete]

I am a Christian, and a Baptist minister. I had one of Gothards books and was always uncomfortable looking at it and reading what it taught. Now I know why. The Holy Spirit was protecting me.

[@Christinme4ever]

How would you counsel I approach those who still live under his teachings?

[@ldpetete]

@@Christinme4ever Oh my goodness, I don't know. I've never encountered anyone in that movement. I sure hope some others will see your question and give some insight.

[@beckysmith6375]

Could you be more specific about what the book taught that made you uncomfortable?

[@ldpetete]

@@beckysmith6375 It has been years since I reviewed the book. I'm not even sure where it is. I cannot say that any one thing stood out to me, it was just an uncomfortable feeling when looking over the information.

[@beckysmith6375]

@ldpetete Wow! That's a very subjective answer - like most of the negative comments being given about Bill Gothard''s teaching. I've asked several people to give me concrete details, and so far no one has. This is a sobering thing I'm seeing here - Christians willing to railroad a man and his ministry after a negative docuseries made by secular entities whose intention is to malign all Christians, a series which cherry picks quotes from him, and only interviews some detractors. No balance of positive voices which are willing to tell the good they received from the seminar. This does not bode well for our society - the ideal of "innocent until proven guilty" has certainly fallen by the wayside!

[@squrpion]

Gothard took an indicative and made it an imperative.

[@ryanprosper88]

Yea, having a "quiver full" of arrows is nice, but you can only carry so many into your hand. The same applies to kids.

[@guillaumemoisan913]

Amen !!

[@LisaKoffler]

Bill Gothard had his own distorted ideas, and he was able to find people who agreed with him! SICK!

[@J3nJ3nl0llip0p]

I'm athiest. Putting that up front. This video was absolutely inspiring. (Obvi, the preborn ad bothered me, but that's very personal, and not why I'm here.) I genuinely appreciate the message of this video. To hear a Christian MAN, a Preacher even, say that the IBLP & ATI are NOT godly is... Hopeful! It gives me comfort to know that not all of the Christian men of the world think this way. It was my only experience until now. I'm not converted, but I AM genuinely touched by the beautiful words and message of this video. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[@LisaKoffler]

There's nothing wrong with being an atheist! People become atheists for different reasons - especially if they're abused by cults!

[@FBCTrona]

I Have been IFB for over 30 years, and the Majority of Baptist Pastor's would not touch BG with a ten foot pole, but unfortunately many others were deceived.

[@lohengrin5082]

Sadly, many people looking at us from the outside with conflate IFB churches with this.

[@FBCTrona]

@@lohengrin5082 Unfortunately with many IFB churches they would be right, but not with the vast majority

[@dearally4787]

I went to an IFB Bible college and I remember my professors teaching against him.

[@FBCTrona]

@@dearally4787 would you mind if I asked want to college you attended?

[@charliecrowe6606]

Excellent work Todd. Legalism is so insidious, it dresses up like an angel of light.

[@swordsforthetruth]

I am an Independent Fundamental Baptist, and I promise Bill Gothard is not an accurate representation of us. Even Spencer Smith, one of the largest Independent Baptist on KZbin disagrees with him.

[@TheJpep2424]

Kjv only is wrong

[@levifox2818]

@@TheJpep2424 Let him make his point. We can both be charitable to one another, even when we disagree.

[@BrianJohnson-lx3zd]

Who would you recommend as a good example of Independent Fundamentalist Baptists? I feel like it's always a temptation for folks to dwell on the bad examples and let the good ones slip by us.

[@rebeccalindley153]

@@BrianJohnson-lx3zd The American Council of Christian Churches has fundamental Baptists in it. They are on the internet.

[@swordsforthetruth]

@@TheJpep2424 We can agree to disagree on that. I am KJV only but that doesn't make me more or less of a Christian and you not being KJV only doesn't make you more or less of a Christian. What I was referring to in this comment was their multiple legalistic views on many things that are only convictions, but not actually taught in the Bible. For example, women in pants. I know plenty of Baptist women who prefer and only do wear dresses or skirts, (sometimes loose shorts like athletic shorts or culottes I think is what they are called. That is perfectly fine if that is their conviction, but it becomes wrong when someone forces their conviction on someone else. On the other hand, I know plenty of Baptist women who don't mind wearing pants or leggings and that is completely fine. (As long as the attire is modest) I do think that during service women should be wearing a dress or skirt but that is because I believe we should dress nicer than normal when we go to church. I hope this helped address your concerns.

[@jesusbeloved3953]

When I was 20, a husband/wife ran the youth group at my church. They adhered to Gothardism. They tried pounding into our heads all those legal rules you mentioned. It took about 6 months before I was fed up and quit going. However, it took 10 years before I’d attended a church again!

[@rubiks6]

- "... it took 10 years before I’d attended a church again!"_ That sounds like your own foolishness. You can't blame that couple in your old church, nor can you blame the teachings of Bill Gothard. Sorry, sir, but you are responsible for your own decisions. _"... are ye not carnal ..."_ (1 Corinthians 3:3-4). Maybe it's time for you to grow up.

[@beckysmith6375]

Could you describe some of the legal rules that they tried pounding into your head, to use your own words? I ask that because the teachings of Christ himself - teachings like "deny yourself, take up your cross daily, and follow me" are not pleasant to the carnal nature of man. Were you a born-again Christian while in that youth group? Perhaps it was just true, robust Bible teaching that offended you at that time.

[@rubiks6]

@@beckysmith6375 - Great response to OP. Jesus promised us the Christian life would be difficult. That "cross" we are told to bear is like the one Jesus was crucified on. Jesus was our example and crucifixion is not fun.

[@willowbrook2717]

@@beckysmith6375 so you're so good at all of this Christian life that anyone else who may have struggled and pinpointed why some of those struggles came about that you feel its ok to hammer them by questioning their salvation? You know nothing of this person's experience. It was a YOUTH GROUP for crying out loud! This person was in their teens no doubt. Did you have everything sorted out when you were a teen? In your 20's? Your 30's? So if ten years later they reconsidered their decision about church and possibly repented you can't find anything positive about that? Maybe listen to someone as they speak. Is it possible that no one has shown grace to you in your lifetime and that makes it difficult, maybe impossible, for you to express it?

[@LisaKoffler]

10 YEARS? WOW! I hope you got serious therapy for PTSD after that horrible experience! That was a cult, NOT a "real" church!

[@deannemiller891]

What a great video! These are great principles for staying away from any false teacher. My siblings and I got pulled into the Gothard stuff in the 90s, although none of us could be quite comfortable with 😂it. Women were always supposed to wear skirts, even if they were at home doing yardwork. I remember a woman walking up to my sister who was wearing jeans and saying, "God intended women to look like women. " To which my sister answered, "no one has ever mistaken me for a man." The woman was speechless.

[@deannemiller891]

@@fredthe47th I couldn't agree more. But the Gothard thinking guilted women into wearing dresses and skirts no matter what, even if they were doing yardwork. Many of the women at the church I used to attend would put sweatpants underneath a skirt because they were so convinced that God would disapprove of wearing sweatpants without a skirt. just a very extreme viewpoint and incorrectly tying it into scripture.

[@beckysmith6375]

I never got the idea from the Gothard seminars to wear pants doing yard work! That's ridiculous! It's so unfair to paint Bill Gothard with a brush being held by the legalistic hands of people who took what he said too far! He was just nudging Christians to maintain the traditional gender norms of yesteryear. Surely we all recognize that legalistic people have been "hitting others over the head with the Bible" so to speak, for GENERATIONS! Legalistic people will always do that in one way or another. It's not the Bible teacher that's the problem, folks! It's the person interpreting and applying the message that's the problem!

[@saraz9017]

😂

[@Mracelocates]

We were in a house church greatly influenced by BG, Doug Wilson, and Doug Phillips. We are still suffering from it and have a daughter who refuses to see us as parents or grandparents. We tried to do life by the book and it turned out to be the wrong book. Please pray for our eldest to heal.

[@FEEFS.]

Douglas Wilson is really good. Haven’t heard of the others though

[@SAOProductions1955]

@@FEEFS. Douglas Wilson is nothing like Gothard.

[@willowapodosis4661]

​@@SAOProductions1955Doug teaches keeping the law is part of salvation. Federal revision stuff is heresy. Christianized world is false. He is a wolf

[@Mary-re7gd]

Prayed for you!

[@Mracelocates]

@@Mary-re7gd It is important to recall that the harm we did to ourselves and others, on our journey, was not done with malice but rather with the deceived flesh working which always has bad results BUT Romans 8.28 is most active under those circs! Keep praying!

[@Spillers72]

I knew a guy that was into Gothard. He was divorced 4 times. He was so controlling it destroyed his marriages.

[@LisaKoffler]

WOW! One of Bill Gothard's IBLP cult rules is that divorce is NOT an option! In the case of the Duggars, 3 of Anna's siblings divorced and remarried, but they had to leave the cult first in order to do that! I just wished Anna was smart enough to follow right behind them and divorce Josh! IF she did, she and her 7 kids would have MUCH happier lives!

[@NehemiahRyan]

We had a few families in our church who followed Gothard and they were very much like a cult. One family left our church because they actually called Bill and asked him what to do when our pastor was counseling against the errors. Bill told them to leave our church and they did. Two of the other Gothardite families are now in ruins because of his teachings. That's what legalism does.

[@beckysmith6375]

We had one family in our church who became very legalistic with their kids while in ATI. We also liked Bill Gothard's seminars, but we didn't apply his ideas mindlessly or legalisticly. The other families' kids didn't turn out so well, but ours are still in church and love the Lord. My husband and I didn't find errors in Gothard's teaching. There was certainly "emphasis" on certain things, but that's true of any Bible teacher. We took what was useful to our family, which was quite a bit, and left the rest.

[@Christinme4ever]

I have deep concerns for many people in the church who were raised with these cult-like teachings.....I really see the damages done by them.

[@billcook4768]

Grew up going to IBYC seminars and workshops. Met the man a few times. He taught some good stuff. He taught some silly stuff (women should never open a car door when a man is around.) He taught some flat out wrong stuff. And we knew it and ignored it, other than to poke fun. Just my opinion, but the problem is not so much bad teaching, but the idea that we should follow anybody 100%. Never put your faith in a person. Never accept any teaching uncritically.

[@golonghorns0881]

Respectfully, I have a small problem with both Todd and many comments made here. Two points of full disclosure: I didn’t grow up in a family influenced by Gothard, but my wife sort of did so she’s given some insight. Also; my comment takes nothing away from any person’s terrible experiences that I wish hadn’t have taken place! Finally to my point; I feel we need to separate standard of Christian living between what is unbiblical versus undesirable. I go to an Independent Baptist Church that teaches the fundamentals of God’s Word; and at the same time we don’t preach standards of living as Bible doctrine. That must be separated! There’s nothing wrong with having standards, and there’s nothing wrong with people having different standards. Some people here are commenting that their family threw away secular music, were strict on what they wore…there’s nothing wrong with standards to live by and I don’t think Todd has any right to call that out nor anyone else. The problem is when you attach standards to Biblical doctrine and expect every Christian to live by them the same. That is of course wrong, and I have no problem calling that out. That’s what makes this movement(?) difficult to speak on in some ways. Any misinterpretation of scripture is wrong, any abuse is wrong. Those are obvious. But any family’s choice to have standards that are different from the world, or even different from many Christians today should not be under that same umbrella of being wrong. We should all be careful to not conflate a bad experience with believing that all people who live this way or go to a certain Baptist church as all being bad. And we should also not allow legalism to be some blanket term to bash any family who makes a choice to live more conservatively. Speak out against how we treat one another, but please don’t generalize all people who might go to a fundamental Bible church as being mean spirited and ultra authoritarian dictators. Just as following rules doesn’t make you righteous, nor is someone righteous for calling out people who might live at a different standard than you do. God bless!

[@moonmonk6418]

Today, practicing true holiness is called "legalism." Don't ya just love how the devil spins that???

[@drjlrust]

Personal holiness is a wonderful thing. We should quietly strive to "be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect." Judging and punishing (shunning) others for not living up to our high standards is unkind and unbiblical. Children should be guided into paths of righteousness, not whipped on a regular basis (and certainly not with the glee that Mr. Pearl demonstrated in this video clip).

[@dorismahoney1440]

Just because there is nothing wrong w them doesn't mean they aren't child abusers.

[@j.p.5716]

@@drjlrust Funny how the instructions given to us in Matthew 18:15-17 seem to differ with you. “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." Funny how the instructions on child discipline in Proverbs seem to differ with you also. Proverbs 13:24 - He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently. Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him. Proverbs 23:13-14 - Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. Proverbs 29:15 - The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother. I think I will take the word of God over your platitudes.

[@Keycity60]

I think it is wise to use caution when approaching a group that looks like the members are wearing a uniform, which is how the Duggars, and Gothardites in general, appear to me. The rainbow flag people appear that way to me as well. I started watching, “Shiny, Happy People,” and noticed that one of the, “experts,” called upon to critique the Duggars was a gender studies professor, so I shut it off. It's interesting that one who would approve of chemically castrating, and then surgically mutilating a child because the child is confused, would recoil in horror at the notion that a parent would spank a child.

[@elizabethcochran3395]

Yeah it seems like the documentary might not have been made in good faith. Jinger Duggar Vuolo has literally written a book about how she went from legalism to freedom in Christ and I don't think she didn't was interviewed for this doc. I think that says something.

[@jonathanmarks3112]

Doesn’t surprise me. Gothardite legalism is the very opposite of the idolatry of freedom found in the United States.

[@jacobswife23]

Jinger didnt want to be a part of the documentary...which says a lot.

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

I never spanked my child and time outs and consequences (lose of toy) worked great, my child is very respectful and listens to her parents, reads her Bible, prays, goes to Christian school.

[@JimBischoff1184]

I’ve been saying this about the Bill Gothard “empire “ since about 1976-1977 ; IIRC . People told me that I was overreacting , not giving a secret “thing “ over to the Lord , etc . I firmly believe that it severely damaged my relationship with the Lord for many years . I’m sadly glad to see this being revealed . 😢

[@joshstucki4349]

My parents almost got into something like this and I saw a lot of my friends in the Christian school I attended deal with things like this. Legalism is so dangerous (and, ironically, ineffective). Just stick to the Bible.

[@LisaKoffler]

WOW! You were extremely lucky! There are 2 kinds of Bibles - real and fake - and cults use the latter!

[@sharebae98]

I wish you hadn’t used the clip of Mike Pearl that the documentary took out of context (as well as some other Christians that were lumped in with the Gothard cult including Answers in Genesis.) This was a good video, but after watching the entire Shiny Happy People documentary I believe it is important that we’re not blinded to the ways that satin will use it in attempt to put down homeschooling, big families, conservatism, and Christianity itself. Keep up the good work though, I really do love this channel, I apologize that my first comment is a criticism.

[@dorismahoney1440]

The Pearl's should be charged n go to prison.

[@50acrewood]

No you make a very important point

[@mktay2067]

What exactly do we charge the pearls with?

[@dorismahoney1440]

@mktay2067 In Canada it's not legal to assault children. Parent nor teachers etc. Perhaps counseling to commit an illegal act.

[@j.p.5716]

​@@dorismahoney1440 Your country's laws are what are illegal. God's law supersedes all. Proverbs 13:24 - He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently. Proverbs 22:15 - Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him. Proverbs 23:13-14 - Do not hold back discipline from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die. Proverbs 29:15 - The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother.

[@debbilermond1553]

Thank you, Todd for exposing the fallacies of Bill Gothard's teachings. I went to his conference as a teenager, studied his BYC workbook and BLP. After being raised in the Presbyterian church, going through the Charismatic church movement, I came full circle and have been Reformed for over 10 years now. It's a great feeling to be fully recovered from the authoritarian teachings of Bill Gothard. I pray that he repents for the damage he has done to so many youths before he dies.

[@beckysmith6375]

I also went to the seminars in my late teens. Then I was invited to attend a Presbyterian church where I stayed for a year, then went to a Baptist church for several years, and after that came a Charismatic church! After that came non denominational, Evangelical Free, and home church! In each of the places God has had me, I've learned more about Him, and have gained new insights into his Word. In each place, I've had to keep the kernels of truth and leave some chaff. I did not find Bill Gothard's teaching authoritarian, and I think it's because I went to the seminars on my own. I wasn't taken to them by legalistic parents who were overreacting to possibility of my straying from the narrow way. If you notice, it's the legalistic parents in almost every case of "harm" supposedly caused by Bill Gothard. That sounds like your story as well. I'm glad you had recovered from any harm done to you...

[@debbilermond1553]

@@beckysmith6375 My parents weren't legalistic nor were they even Christian at the time I attended his seminars.

[@beckysmith6375]

@@debbilermond1553 I'm glad they weren't legalistic, then! So could you tell me, please, exactly what you heard at the conference that struck you as authoritarian? You and others have said this about the seminars, but I can't for the life of me think of anything authoritarian in the seminars. No one yet on this thread has spelled out what was authoritarian in the Basic Seminar?

[@debbilermond1553]

@@beckysmith6375 Off the top of my head, I can't point to any one instance because it was over 55 years ago. If I can pinpoint it down for you, I will.

[@beckysmith6375]

@@debbilermond1553 Well, that's very interesting that you are sure that the teachings were legalistic, you remember that even though it was 55 years ago. But you don't actually remember anything legalistic that he taught! You can't tell us of even one fallacy, yet you are glad that people are discovering his fallacies? Are you someone who just goes along with what the majority of people say on a subject? Sorry to be so blunt with you, but I expect more fairness and discernment from people who claim they are Christians.

[@christservant7051]

If the Son sets you free, you are free indeed!

[@justinmayfield6579]

Todd, great stuff on the motivation for obedience! One correction, Ephesians 5:21 does not teach husbands should submit to their wives. That’s a fallacy that seems to have made its rounds on account of novice handling of the Greek. You have to read the passage in context of the Greek grammar starting in verse 18. The command to submit to one another is to the whole church (along with the other preceding participial commands) and then Paul clarifies what he means by talking about the various types of hierarchical relationships in their community starting in verse 22. This is why Paul adds “own” in the command to women in that next verse (“submit to your own husbands”) because the context shifts from collective scope to individual relationships. Scripture is unapologetically patriarchal but the patriarchs are called to be gentle, selfless, loving men.

[@jonathanmarks3112]

A hearty Amen to this comment! And of course, it’s perfectly fine for a husband to do things his wife if asked. That’s not submission because it’s not introducing a new authority structure.

[@justinmayfield6579]

@jonathanmarks3112 yes, for sure. And it’s good for him to seek out his wife’s desires and perspectives and factor them in as he leads his family. That’s good use of authority.

[@justapilgrimgoinhome]

Yep, and love by washing of water by the word, and like Christ loved the congregation. Not worldy love, which abounds in the relationship expectations of many in the USA.

[@familythomas2828]

I have a perspective on this from someone (me) who was intrigued by IBLP but ultimately decided against it. I am a firm and committed independent fundamental Baptist, something we tend to lack, is a large community. Our churches tend to be small as well as being independent. The idea of having a big, like-minded community was appealing. Never underestimate the power of the desire for community and shared purpose. It was also appealing to the desire to "infiltrate" and change the culture. A lot of what Gothard spoke about was the brokenness of culture and the modern family. Both of those statements are still true and his recipe(?) For fixing it was appealing to us In the end, what put me off, was the lack of Christ centeredness. Jesus was rarely, if ever, the focus and certainly grace itself was not shared. I also found Gothard himself to be kind of politician-y and slimy.

[@SergiuM42]

Yea he just looks a bit off, very slimy indeed lol

[@haileymontgomery3659]

This is the best summary of why people joined the Gothard/ IBLP movement that I have seen! I have thought this all along.

[@shirleycolopy4322]

Agreed- it’s called discernment from the Holy Spirit- my husband and I always felt something was off but were never involved enough to grasp what- even though some of our good friends were apart of it all.

[@shanpastaflocka]

I'm soooo glad you are talking about this! So well said

[@15thGenerationTidewaterFarmer]

Raised Gothard, I'm happy. Love my parents. And we never even had to wear pin wheels.

[@GaveMeGrace1]

You’re a trusted enough source to listen to in this matter for a first time-Thank you for standing and speaking on the Rock of our salvation, Jesus Christ.

[@michelleslack9985]

I'm thankful I do not know the man I saw the Duggar on tv when I was young. Sometimes its good when we miss these things. praying for the people who fell for this deception 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

[@LisaKoffler]

Bill Gothard founded his IBLP cult and he makes the rules, and Jim Bob Duggar takes "orders" from him! He was always controlling, but when he and his wife Michelle got involved with Bill Gothard instead of joining a REAL church, he got worse! Thankfully, MOST of their 19 kids are slowly breaking away from the cult!

[@calebmills1446]

I think bang on today Todd. Appreciated this. I grew up in this environment in NZ But I think my family did a good job of not swallowing the whole of the teaches of Gothard. There are many good truths in the program! I think Gothards problem was he made an inference from a passage and would turn it into a imperative. I'm glad for gifted teaches who teach the word accurstely. Thank-you Todd.

[@seaknightvirchow8131]

When I was a new Christian I was encouraged to attend a Bill Gothard program. I really had an uneasy feeling about his teaching and after reflection rejected his material. He makes people to swear to do certain things, an oath really.

[@mary-janechambers3596]

The Spirit was already directing you when you were young in the faith.

[@ka9fon]

The sheep of the Shepherd do not hear another's voice. The follow Him.

[@robertdesantis6205]

There's a definite "creep factor" surrounding him. Similar to Ken Copeland and Joyce Meyer vibes.

[@sparkletrek7086]

This is the best discussion I’ve heard about this movement. I grew up in this and the teachings have impacted my life greatly in a very negative way. I spent 20 years sifting truth from the lies and still occasionally struggle with fears and work based ideas BUT God is so faithful and He loves us so much and I’m so glad I didn’t give up on figuring things out. It’s sad that no one ever tried to expose these teachings and even now the documentary was done by Amazon. I wish strong Christian influencers and or pastors would have spoken out years ago. I find it interesting that John 8:36 is my favorite verse and that is the verse used here. ❤️

[@jessicamontaperto810]

My now boyfriend & I we were teenagers he didn't feel comfortable with Abkea curriculum. Caused who publishes them..

[@brianevans4]

I just worry that in criticising (and rightly so) this man you are swinging too far the other way to egalitarianism. It's important to emphasize that the bible does teach Christian women to submit to their husbands. This is not a false teaching of the 20th century, it's an ages old biblical command. It looks like this teacher abused and twisted the scripture, but it doesn't negate the original command

[@averyhappywoman]

So grateful for this video! I did not come out of Gothard's movement, but did come out of legalism. Thank you :)

[@sherryfrasier5978]

"Let today be the day the Son sets you free." Amen, brother!

[@NathanSmutz]

I recall zero lose-your-salvation/earn-heaven stuff from IBLP/ATI. How much "legalism" was from what people believed externally? Jo used that clip at the end to represent IBLP as "rules to stay out of hell"; but due diligence would have been to actually examine their materials.

[@jimmyjamm4432]

When I watched that documentary, I saw a great deal of my childhood. We were not as deeply into it as many, but it definitely affected my childhood. I struggled with legalism for a very long time and now I know why. Independent fundamental baptist churches and Bill Gothard. My dad used to have a collection of Bill Cosby records (long before the truth about him came out). After a Bill Gothard seminar, he went home and broke them all.

[@ellenorfraser3421]

Hey, so it's actually good that he did this anyhow, as what was really truly going on in the heart of Bill Cosby was to use and devastate women's lives. Bill C. was really embraced by Christians back in the day of his TV show: around 1986. It was embraced as light hearted family oriented good clean humor. Somehow by the GRACE OF GOD, I had an aversion to it!! It had slimy licentious undertones to it, and I did not partake in "enjoying" that weekly program. It actually made me about throw up!! THANK GOD for his Spirit who daily loads us with benefits....Ps. 68: 19-21 among many many other life-giving scriptures!! Smashing Bill C records - a good pre-emptive strike against being lulled into complacency!! A little leaven leavens the whole lump!!! Galatians 5:9. Your Dad, for reasons you might not have known, just very well have been answering God's call on his life to PURIFY and SANCTIFY and CONSECRATE himself before the Lord!!! Another person might not have been called upon to do this.... just some thoughts from another ONE of CHRIST'S!! AMEN!!

[@margyeoman3564]

Isn't that two ends of the same stick?

[@rustyvoiceinwilderness9580]

We interrupted a fabulous family holiday with our 4 kids driving from Corpus Christy to out-of-the-way Kansas City (I think) then home to NW Alberta. We bought a bunch of books etc. I hope BG didn't sway my Fatherhood to their loss. Please forgive me Lord! I am so thankful that God helped me realize the difference between "Biblical Principle" :-( and Biblical Truth.

[@LostLakeTribune]

Very good points. If you knew the Gothardite family I know, you would probably think differently, since they have turned out very well.

[@Luke_1-37]

My wife and I watched this yesterday. At times we were like what?!?!? And then we were like what?!?!? This it's a cult. Done done and done. Yes we watched all of it. This does not represent God, Christianity, or Baptist.

[@sharebae98]

Agree🙌

[@LisaKoffler]

Cults are FAKE, and they represent abuse and brainwashing in the worst ways!

[@gretacarrick5934]

Baptist and so glad I never heard of him. That’s the same works salvation that so many other denominations come up with. It’s so very hard for man to just accept what God has freely given through His Son’s death on the cross.

[@sonnyh9774]

Todd Friel needs to distinguish between Biblical patriarchy and abuse of authority. God created patriarchy Todd

[@jeffreypaulross9767]

@sonnyh9774 What is your definition of “Biblical patriarchy?”

[@sonnyh9774]

@@jeffreypaulross9767 biblical patriarchy is the authority structure that God setup that mirrors the relationship between God the father and God the son; and the relationship between Jesus Christ and the church. God the father and God the son are equal in some respects and unequal in some of their roles. Likewise, the husband and wife are equal in God's eyes in many respects and they are unequal in the gender roles God gave us and the nature he designed in US. Jesus made it clear that he submitted completely to the wheel and the plans of the father. The church submits completely to Jesus Christ Authority at least in theory. The wise is instructed or commanded by God to submit to the husband in everything. The husband has final decision-making Authority. Biblical patriarchy is Father rule. That is a simple definition of biblical patriarchy

[@jeffreypaulross9767]

@@sonnyh9774 Does the husband have “final decision making authority” over every aspect of a married couple’s lives, or is this submission just in matters of the Spirit? Ephesians 5:21 does say that we are to submit to one another...

[@jeffreypaulross9767]

@@fredthe47th Please elaborate? What is the baby, and what is the bath water, as it it pertains to Todd Friel’s message?

[@sonnyh9774]

@@jeffreypaulross9767 submitting to one another is a very Broad and general instruction. The one place for the Bible specifically says that the wife has authority over the husband is in the desire for sexual relations. The biblical husband more times than not is going to try to please his wife and try to get her what she wants. He's not supposed to be a tyrant but sometimes the church has to deal with sinful men like this. If the husband wants to move the family to Colorado then that is where the wife should go where's the husband wants to change his career even if it adversely affects the family, the wife should support him

[@heatherschmidt4291]

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! For your kind, biblical and engaging analysis of Bill Gothard and his teachings…I took his teaching when I was a teenager almost forty years ago! It added to my confusion…The Gospel IS the best news ever! Through Jesus Christ we can experience salvation and healing..through Him alone Rom. 3:24. No works required! None! Please keep speaking the truth in love. One of the greatest needs of our day. May God richly bless you! Eph. 3:20

[@geneanuts]

We knew a number of it that were trying to follow this, thinking it was of God. They took classes. I even bought some materials at a yard sale. We just couldn't get into it. The Lord was protecting us.👆

[@joanwatkins3022]

Same here! I remember going to a “Bill Gothard seminar” because it was the “in thing” to do. Thank God He protected me as I never got entrenched with that teaching. I think I saw it as a trend that was ok for some but I wasn’t interested. I had no idea how ruinous it was to women especially, and families!

[@nelsonporter8387]

In the mid 70’s, our youth group went to Ocean Grove, NJ for a week long seminar-“Bill Gothards Seminar on basic youth conflicts”.

[@SufficientGraceScriptures]

Yes! Context is imperative! I pray that all the people in this movement and that have come out of it come to know the truth of the Bible and the true Gospel of Christ!

[@dean828]

Mormonism "Lite"... definitely not Biblical Christianity... Abomination.

[@REVNUMANEWBERN]

Sorta a good way to put it as I understand you but the doctrinal points were NO where close to Mormonism

[@yajeel]

That's a good comparison. I'm not really hearing anything about regeneration from Holy Spirit, or repentance and faith in Christ.... Really disturbing.

[@dean828]

@@REVNUMANEWBERN it's called a Cult...

[@LisaKoffler]

Cults are called "offshoots" of REAL religious faiths, and ALL religions have cults! They have their own "Cult Bibles" instead of the "authentic" Holy Bible that REAL places of worship use! Mormonism is NO exception to that!

[@ArleneAdkinsZell]

Thank you for this presentation.

[@carl13579]

The biggest problem I saw in Gothard's teachings was the redefinition of fundamental Biblical terms, such as grace. This allowed him to misuse Scripture on a massive scale.

[@jonathanmarks3112]

Redefining the language of scripture is a mark of all cult leaders.

[@LisaKoffler]

Absolutely! Cult leaders "twist and turn" the Bible to fit their own distorted belief systems!

[@marinadoerksen8107]

I know a Gothard following family that looked absolutely perfect but on the inside it was the woman controlling everything. The husband was abused in many, many ways for many, many years. And the children obeyed immediately and without hesitance. Very strange behavior and very awkward to be around them.

[@gregorymoore2877]

I mean... props for having their kids under control. But if the woman was controlling everything, can you really say they were following Gothard? And no, I'm not a fan of Gothard.

[@mktay2067]

Ok biblically what is wrong with instant obedience from children?

[@JLa7257]

​@@mktay2067Children should obey because they want to. Not because they are terrified. It's what God wants from us, too: cheerful obedience. ♡

[@Cocomelon_baby-gr4qg]

Great message for the IBLP crowd! Gothard’s system has hurt many people and I pray they find the healing they need.

[@LisaKoffler]

BOTH Jinger Duggar Vuolo and Jill Duggar Dillard wrote books about growing up in Bill Gothard's IBLP cult! Jinger talked about her spiritual journey, while Jill decided that she was DONE WITH SECRETS! You might want to check them out!

[@user-in8ot7lb7t]

Being a Christian over 55 years and a preacher close to 50 years I have to agree with much that was said concerning legalism and taking the scriptures out of context. However, I have to disagree with one statement that was in which "husbands are to submit themselves to their wife", nowhere in the scriptures does it say for husbands to submit themselves to their wife. It says "love your wife as Christ loved the church", "love them as yourself" Ephesians 5:22-33

[@jonathanmarks3112]

I noticed that too! I don’t know if Todd is egalitarian or not but I was going to ask. And of course, there’s a difference between a husband doing something his wife wants him to do- mowing the lawn, for instance- and submission, which implies putting a structure of authority in place. Still want that answer from Todd though…

[@19valleydan]

You are correct, however what are your thoughts on Eph. 5:21?

[@jonathanmarks3112]

@@19valleydan Contextually, Eph 5:21 is the end of a sentence describing activity in the church; therefore, it applies to the church. Does Ephesians 5:20 occur primarily in the home? No, and for that reason it doesn't apply to the home.

[@lucasmiller664]

@@jonathanmarks3112 contextually, everything in Ephesians 5 should happen in every facet of a person’s life… there is a biblical precedence all people being willing to submit to each other as the occasion requires it… how many times has your wife actually been right where you were wrong, and you conceded to her…deferred to her…yielded to her… this is what is meant by this verse, and it applies in the house as well.

[@markrenton1093]

I agree with you on the husband not submitting , the context does not make sense,am I as a parent supposed to submit my children, I Peter talks about wives submitting and husbands loving their wives but not submitting.

[@24carrotgold8]

I attended IBYC in 1973, 74 and later again in the 1980s. I still have all the scriptures memorized. I was a new Christian and the foundational teaching was meaningful. It was in the 80's I found out all people (according to Gothard) were to remain with their birth family until marriage. I was in my late 20's and felt the condemnation of this doctrine since I was already launched as a solo female in a career God placed me in over 2000 miles from home. I rejected that teaching but understand others may still be bound in it and other lies. 🤐

[@beckysmith6375]

I also attended the IBLP seminars in the years you mentioned. I remember the teaching on unmarried sons and daughters remaining at home till marriage. I found his perspective refreshingly controversial because at the time, many parents were saying that at age 18, their children have to move out of the house! I was raised by a Mexican mother, and in Mexican culture, unmarried sons and daughters do usually stay at home. They don't stay at home only till marriage, but even after being married! Multiple family hoyseholds are not uncommon - as a matter of fact, the Mexican family living across the street from me right now has 3 married siblings in the same house. It's a 6 bedroom house, and they live there together happily. So I feel that Bill Gothard was just trying to correct for a societal movement that was separating families, unnecessarily, and his teaching was enforced very legalistically by some. I also got a job in my 20's, far from home - in a city 5 hours drive from my parents, and my parents weren't against my taking that job. But they were glad I hadn't moved out earlier just to "get away from them" or "be independent" so to speak. And now that they are gone, I treasure those years in my 20's that I spent at home. And I saved some money too!

[@monicacamenisch3580]

I have heard hundreds of Gothard's speeches. He taught salvation by grace. The problem was that pleasing God by following all of these things was emphasized much more than God's grace. But these things were the response to salvation, not the cause.

[@lemonzestandbasilfouts2723]

"God is your protector, not obedience." Amen

[@LisaKoffler]

God protects, cults don't! Amen

[@LRibeiro97]

I do think the whole critique would be better structured if in the midst of the exceprts (images and videos) used to criticize and show the wrongs of the ministry, there wouldn't also be images and videos that have nothing wrong in them and their teaching.

[@joanseaton1709]

Totally agree!!!

[@alicehendricks5556]

My parents were almost one of the "testing" families to try out Gothard's homeschool curriculum. However, my Dad had a beard and that wasn't allowed. Thankfully they thought that was ridiculous and never joined. We did attend seminars over the years in the 90's, and though we never fully believed all he taught, we knew families who were, so we were influenced by way of them. It was the early 2000's after A Matter of Basic Principles was published and we saw fully how terrible Gothard and his teachings were. Thankful to God that He brought us out of all that bad theology and legalism!

[@Terminus_El_Camino]

My wife's family was "influenced" by BG, but only to a limited extent. She had some fond memories of his materials, and we went to one of his seminars in the early 90's. I found it real weird; I don't remember *any* gospel being preached or promoted. I do remember the importance about praying for hedges of protection. A few years ago, we stumbled over some materials that she had purchased at the event, and she was fine with me throwing it out. I had a bad vibe from that guy.

[@allenblake7810]

Gothard's teaching was aimed at specific problems and so was not intended as a balanced theology. What others have done with his teaching is no more Gothard's responsibility than it is the Apostle Paul's responsibility what false teachers and legalists have done with his Epistles.

[@beckysmith6375]

Great insight! Thanks for sharing this observation!

[@susanbarackman-artist7670]

sorry cannot agree with this opinion. - - BG taught that his teachings were the "truth" and to go against them was going against God or going against God's annointed. and many were afraid to question or research as that would be seen as a lack of faith and trust in God.

[@cindylutz7442]

My mom took me to the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts in approximately 1974, when I was 13ish. My dad was abusive, my mom was told by her church elders to submit, (she tried, taught me the same,) so I was pretty primed, and he definitely influenced me. The biggest thing I started consciousky doing as a result of that event was reading my Bible daily, and Scripture memorization, which didn't stick, (reading did.) But when I hear about the umbrellas of authority and such, I remember it like, "Wait, that's not true?" I know my mom tried to be so careful about "getting it right" I think because she sincerely wanted to please God. (It certainly didn't please my dad...he totally wasn't buying qny of it, he wanted submission to HIM not to Christ.) I in turn have tried to be so careful about getting it right for the same reason, but...also so God wouldn't hurt me, There's probably something still a bit broken in there, but I can't entirely blame Bill Gothard.

[@beckysmith6375]

I'm sorry to hear about the difficult family environment you grew up in. Your mom sounds like a caring Christian who tried to make the best of a bad situation. Your mom was actually being your "umbrella of protection", along with Christ, of course, because your father was abusive. Please note that the umbrella diagram was never used to describe an "authority" structure. That is a twisting of Bill Gothard's teaching. Just like an umbrella protects you from rain, so the "umbrellas" of Christ and parents are supposed to protect the family from the attacks of Satan. So much that's being said right now about the IBLP seminars is being taken out of context and/or twisted. Just keep reading the Bible daily, going to church, and maybe get in a good study like Bible Study Fellowship. God bless you, sister!

[@catherinebrown2194]

Thank you Todd for bringing this out about BG

[@geekwithabible4477]

This may be the best video I have seen from this channel. Makes me want to watch more.

[@kimberlypride4046]

My husband and I were part of homeschooling through IBLP. We have six children and found the curriculum to be Bible based. My oldest 3 children memorized Matthew 5,6&7 Romans6,7 &8 and I John. We went to conferences to help train us in teaching our children. I feel a family that chose Hollywood exposure and fame are not an accurate reflection of the reality of IBLP. I agree they were legalistic, but believe that using God’s Word and especially Jesus’s words as a foundation for teaching our children was the best way to prepare them for life. They are all adults now, and I see a great difference between the older children and the younger ones that were not afforded the same educational start as I had to return to work.

[@REVNUMANEWBERN]

I remember when B.G. called out Pastor in South Atlanta and asked if there were any members that were certified to fly a private jet, at the time ole B.G. was flying like the False prophets of "Faith".

[@flowerpower3618]

I think we need to step ack and ask why this is so appealing to so many. Some people are naturally sweet and domestic, and love children and the idea of family, modesty and family. This appeals to them. I think they are idealistic and want to be separate from the world because it’s so horrid. Perhaps the current state of the church and its devotion to worldliness and being relevant has caused many to leave and go this direction. The church is in a state. The over emphasis on entertainment has caused many to convert .

[@rosehagood3146]

Excellent point

[@littleboots9800]

I think Americans have a particular predisposition to falling into this kind of thing, their puritan history still echoes through the generations.

[@bobmac3724]

Fundamentalism and legalism are not close to the biggest threats to the church today. It's the acceptance of worldly unbiblical teachings within the church. UMC and their ilk are far more destructive.

[@FleaChristenson]

Thank you so much for addressing this. Thank you.

[@Holy_Moley]

Gothard has so many points that needed going after, and I think you really missed the mark on some of them because of modern bias. Thankfully, you are spot on about salvation vs legalism, and all the points about need for proper hermeneutics etc, are exactly right. Wish you had of pointed out how this documentary is also a blatant hit piece, which is easy enough to do when you gather a bunch of bitter people together, and that fundamentally, this doco also took a swing at large portions of right believing and practising Fundamental and Evangelical Christians.

[@50acrewood]

EXACTLY - I’ve only watched the first episode, but I could tell that it’s the world making the docu and trying to use the Duggar situation as a means to put down Christianity in general. Like all the comments from that girl that puts on makeup while making fun of fundies….

[@gregorymoore2877]

@@50acrewood My wife (who grew up in IBLP) and I watched the documentary together. After two episodes I was really disappointed. It was like it couldn't if it was going to be an IBLE expose or a Duggar expose. And most of the things they seemed to imply were "extreme" were just Biblical things. Episodes 3 and 4 are where it starts to deliver a little bit of something. But, it doesn't matter because Todd summed it all up much more clearly in 15 minutes.

[@rjwrightrw30]

Our old church was really into BG's teachings. And that good ol' umbrella of protection...heard it many times. So glad we left there. So many problems.

[@sopranogirl13]

My friend was forced to marry a man she hardly new at 17yrs old. Her parents followed Bill Gothard and she ended up in an arranged marriage. She had 5 children and was so oppressed by this controlling awful man. She finally got the courage to get out of the mirage, she still loves the Lord very much.

[@LisaKoffler]

The IBLP cult doesn't allow divorce, despite a few of Anna's siblings doing so! ANYONE who wants to get divorced has to leave the cult first! The marriages themselves are semi-arrangements, meaning that potential future spouses CAN say no! Kaeleigh Holt said no to Josh and Marjorie Jackson said no to Josiah! Forced marriage is illegal in the US, and I hope your friend disowned her parents for abuse! I also hope that she found a healthy relationship with God instead of a false prophet, like Bill Gothard!

[@GLRDesignsdotcom]

A baptist pastor asked me last year, "Do you have a physically disability that causes you to wear slacks?" (mind you, they were very modest and loose-fitting slacks!) I laughed until I realized he wasn't laughing with me..😵‍💫. 13 years ago another baptist pastor (at another legalistic baptist church) told me, "You need to submit to your husband in ALL things...not just when he is good to you." (my ex-husband choked and slapped me through my pregnancy) Then they handed me a book by the Pearl's "Created to be His Help Meet" ...*SERIOUSLY?!?* This same church harbored MANY abusive men...one being the husband of Joy Harris - see her horrific story on 60 Minutes Australia.... All these ungodly "pastors" will stand before God someday..... I now drive over an hour to get to a biblical church with sound biblical teaching...and it's NOT a baptist church! 😉 🥳

[@SergiuM42]

Wow.. sorry to hear about the abuse you have faced.. these men are absolutely wicked people; whitewashed tombs, as Jesus said. Clean on the outside, but filled with death on the inside. “Vengeance is mine, I will repay” says God.

[@jacobswife23]

Not all Baptist churches are like that. The name of the church isnt important, its what the church is preaching. If it doesn't align with the Word of God, run far away.

[@GLRDesignsdotcom]

@@SergiuM42 Agreed...and I pray they all repent 🙏..because God's vengeance will be FAR worse than what I endured.

[@dizzysdoings]

I grew up in a Baptist Church. None of this would have been tolerated there.

[@LisaKoffler]

That Baptist pastor had NO business questioning you like that, and it sounds like you were in a cult instead of a REAL church! I just hope he had his license revoked!

[@loriwhinery3210]

He sure didn’t practice what he preached. Where was his wife and 100 kids! Hmmmm.

[@trss8674]

No wonder he never married or had children. Who would want a husband with his beliefs or let a man with his beliefs father their children. Yet thousands of women do marry these men and let them father their children. I'm so glad I chose not to marry instead of marrying men like him but because I opted out of marriage, I missed out on having children and have zero arrows in my quiver.

[@loriwhinery3210]

@@trss8674 yes I agree. And it’s ok God doesn’t call everyone to have children or get married. Something he neglected to mention.

[@dorismahoney1440]

Exactly

[@mktay2067]

Where did he preach 100 kids🤔 Exaggerating just shuts down actual conversation of what was wrong

[@dorismahoney1440]

@mktay2067 who cares. He was a pervert to young girl and was found out. He had a lavish lifestyle. Why converse. U either agree or no. Freedom.

[@The_real_Y2]

I attended a Gothard conference. He never once said good works were necessary for salvation.

[@gregorymoore2877]

He probably never said that explicitly. He did set up a hierarchy which believers where expected to follow very strictly.

[@The_real_Y2]

@@gregorymoore2877 No, believers were not expected to follow a hierarchy very strictly. Have you even heard Gothard speak? He presented principles, kind of like the book of Proverbs. You can choose to follow them or not, but in general they are words to the wise.

[@gregorymoore2877]

@@The_real_Y2 My wife grew up in IBLP and even taught some of it. I attended a seminar and heard Gothard speak all day. There three tracks available to follow. We did the Basic seminar. The other courses were the Advanced, and... Anger Management. It struck me as odd they would have Anger Management as an entire track for a seminar, but now I see why. They must have been producing a lot of angry followers with their overbearing emphasis on their hierarchy.

[@The_real_Y2]

@@gregorymoore2877 lol, so you know they were not church services. In fact, attendees qualified for Continuing Education Credits at many major corporations.

[@beckysmith6375]

@@gregorymoore2877 He didn't set up a hierarchy which believers were expected to follow. SOME families with legalistic minded parents did that. My parents didn't do that, and I didn't do that when I took my sons to the seminar. The teachings did us a lot of good - good exposition of Bible principles...

[@thevoiceoftheteacher3581]

I grew up in the UPCI and saw that umbrella used regularly. I’m still detoxing. Thank you for helping me.

[@LisaKoffler]

"Detoxing?" I hope you're getting lifelong therapy for PTSD after that horrible experience!

[@thevoiceoftheteacher3581]

@@LisaKoffler I’m definitely part of a better group. The hardliner bunch I was raised around went to another acronym called the WPF. That bunch is crazy

[@LisaKoffler]

You said it!

[@curtismartin4690]

Martin Lloyd-Jones once said this in a sermon on Romans 3:3 “If your presentation of the Gospel does not expose it to the charge of Antinomianism you are probably not putting it correctly. What do I mean by that? Just this: The Gospel, you see, comes as this free gift of God-irrespective of what man does. Now, the moment you say a thing like that, you are liable to provoke somebody to say, “Well, if that is so it doesn’t matter what I do.” The Apostle takes up that argument more than once in this great epistle. “What then,” he says at the beginning of chapter 6, “shall we do evil-commit sin-that grace might abound?” He’s just been saying: “where sin abounded grace does much more abound.” “Very well,” says someone. “This is a marvelous doctrine, this ‘Go and get drunk, do what you like the grace of God will put you right.'” Antinomianism. Now, this doctrine of the Scriptures-this justification by faith only, this free grace of God in salvation-is always exposed to that charge of Antinomianism. Paul was charged with it. He said, “You know, some people say that’s what I’m preaching.” Paul’s preaching was charged with Antinomianism…So I say, it is a very good test of preaching.”

[@JonathanGrandt]

Yes the Bible says children are a blessing. It also says the man who has a lot of kids is blessed. The idea here is to desire that blessing and lots of kids. That literally means making babies, Todd. Many of them. Your argument against scripture is so solid.

[@mld4852]

I loved Gothard seminars. I went 8 times!

[@REVNUMANEWBERN]

Clayton Community Church in Morrow Ga. suggested & promoted the membership to attend, I went to such every year & one of the big ones out of state, I forget what it was called the master one?? What was implied, understood by most in our church was IF you disagreed with the Pastor on ANYTHING then you were out from under Authority and in dangerous territory with God, I was newly Born Again and the girls in the church I was dating began to look at me as a BAD EGG if I ever just mentioned that I slightly disagreed with ANY of the churches stances

[@bock1965]

it is easy for those who have never been there to judge. I attended half a dozen or so Gothard seminars. From the time I was 15 up to twenty. I have been a Christian since I was 8 and grew up in a Southern Baptist Church. I am 57 now. When I got married I ended up moving from home and attending churches that were non denominational. Not for any reason than that was how things worked out. Maybe the church I grew up in was an anomaly but as far as I am aware there were no negative repercussions from Gothard's teaching in that church. In fact legalism was routinely taught against. Todd did you ever go hear Gothard in person? Gothards umbrella analogy is no different than you telling us how strictly we must obey the government. Can you deny the principle of authority the umbrella analogy teaches? Ever hear of Children obey your parents? What people miss and or dont tell is that Gothard also taught that staying in an abusive situation was not what God wanted either. The umbrellas simply taught about not being rebellious. I am certain there were people who used Gothards teaching as a launch pad for their own error. You Mr Freal surely believe ALL your sins past present and future have already been forgiven but you would never advocate that as an excuse to sin freely. But some do. Gothard like all men was fallible. So am I , so are you. Maybe I am sounding like a Gothard apologist. Maybe I am but I was there and saw nothing abusive. His teaching was affirmative of Gods love. Those who took me to his seminars were affirming of Gods love. There is a wave of Christian deconstruction going on not only in the present but also retroactively. Please be careful to not participate.

[@keithwiebe1787]

Do you remember being preached about "having a quiver full"?

[@bock1965]

@@keithwiebe1787 yes but it was not a go have babies at all costs type of thing. More like go have normal marital relations and if God gives you children accept them as His gifts. It would not surprise me if some people went and made as many babies on purpose as they can. I have a good friend with nine kids. They are a great family. I know he is not legalistic. Too many people are eager to look at situations where folks have lived according to their own will in the guise of following God only to have bad out comes , and then say looky there it did not work well for them. It must have been the teaching that ruined their families. In some cases yes bad teaching can directly cause bad outcomes. I am not convinced Gothards teachings are/ were bad. The ten commandments say themselves that obedience to and honor of parents is a direct way of securing God's blessings for a long life. Of course that does not mean if your parent tells you to murder someone that it's ok. Simply put Gothard taught that not only obedience to authority was God's design for both serving Him and receiving blessings from Him. Get that out of line and the Christian walk will be harder than need be. He also taught explicitly that husbands should love their wives as Christ loves the Church. Again the wives submitting husbands thing has been abused across all of Christendom not just in the circle of people who went to Gothard seminars. Oh and before you ask , we have only one child. Limited on purpose? Yes. Although over the years I have wondered if it was the right choice.

[@beckysmith6375]

Thank you for your words! I certainly resonate with them. I went to many, many seminars with my parents, and later with my husband and young sons. It was the Basic Seminar in the 70's that changed my mind about the path I was on - a path of listening to my so called "friends" in pubic school, and not listening to my parents. I repented of my rebellious attitude, and invited my parents to attend the seminar with me, which they did the next year. Thus started and routine of much looked forward to yearly seminars in which we would be reminded of biblical truths in a concentrated week long format. I thank the Lord for using Bill Gothard in my life to turn me back to my parents who loved me, and away from bad dating relationships and the harm that they were already causing me. I"m thankful for the many years of familial harmony that the material brought. The seminar also taught me that I had been unloving to my little sister. I was moved to be more considerate of her after the story Bill told about his selfishness toward his younger brother. The story about the father who didn't keep his promises to his son was moving to my father who renewed his efforts to spend time with us kids even when he wasn't in the mood. The teaching on husbands listening to the advice of their wife was a real eye opener to my parents - my father a very educated college professor, and my mom a humble grade school teacher turned real estate agent. The teaching and statement that Gothard made on what parents want and hope for in a relationship with their grown children has always stuck with me and caused me to want to make my parents proud. And the teaching on how to have peace by "yielding rights" is pure gold to me. PURE. GOLD. I can not overstate how much more peace my life has because I have made that concept a foundational part of my thinking. As a matter of fact, all 7 Principles that were taught were very useful in different aspects of life. The principle of SUFFERING was possibly the most poignant. I can't thank Bill Gothard enough for the good he did me, my parents, and my children. I also am thankful to Mr. Jim Sammons for the content of the Advanced seminar. Excellent material, and very funny. And also Otto Koning for the PIneapple Story and other tales from the jungles of Indonesia. Bill Gothard shared the stage with missionaries, businessmen, and many other capable teachers from many walks of life. That in itself shows that Bill Gothard wasn't a man driven by ego... We did try the home school program ATI for a couple of years with our sons, but it didn't work for me since the material isn't organized by subjects, but it more topical. So we didn't continue in ATi. Did I take every single teaching for the Basic and Advanced seminars to heart? No, not 100%. Some parts I didn't resonate with, so I just left those by the wayside. A good 85 - 90% of the material was very useful to our family. And the fact that the seminars which included nice quality textbooks, were paid for only once and then could be attended for free for a lifetime, made it one of the very best investments my parents, and my family have ever made, bar none!

[@bock1965]

@@beckysmith6375 Thank you for sharing your story. I believe very few of the total amount of people attending the Institute in Youth Conflicts Seminars had as bad of experiences as had been portrayed in this video. As a teen with a not so good dad I learned a lot about obedience. Mr Friel did not mention how Bill taught kids under their parents authority and wives under their husbands authority and everyone under any authority to pray for those in authority and ask God to guide us through them to reveal His will for us through them. Joseph was obedient to Potiphar and Pharoh as part of his worship of God and God guided Joseph through the authorities he obeyed. Indeed Josephs obedience enabled him to lead a nation and helped him forgive those who literally sold him out. These are the types of things I remember from the seminars. Mr Friel apparently only knows what a few detractors have said. The whole umbrella of God's protection being legalistic is so so laughable to me. You were way more gracious in your comment than I tend to be ( you did not call out Mr Friel). May God bless you as you continue to apply His principles in your life. Peace..

[@mikemandel5775]

Good one, Todd. I heard of Gothard a number of years ago, and a pastor friend described him this way: "When you hear Gothard, think WEIRD." He was clearly correct.

[@LisaKoffler]

REALLY? "When you hear Gothard, think CULT!"

[@christianoverman]

When observation is equated with "legalism," we are in trouble

[@michaeldearborn8326]

Back in the early to mid 90's.....I was involved with a church that went to Bill Gothard's Institute of Basic Life Principles every fall. I went twice....lots of legalistic teachings of which I fell prey too. It took another pastor from a different church to help "cleanse me" from such legalistic teachings.

[@markkallstrom5672]

Todd , I was greatly enriched by some of Bill's teachings . Of course I did not buy into everything he said & I do not buy into everything you say also ! ! ! Why do you think Bill taught the things he did , and why did so many people buy into what he taught ? ? ? I think it is because when our churches only teach grace and not truth , people sense that something is very wrong and they search for truth that goes hand and hand with grace . You cannot have one without the other . They work together , Ray Comfort can explain this to you .

[@irespess]

I remember hearing Ray Comfort speak at a Basic Youth Conference in the 80’s

[@beckysmith6375]

You have made such a good point! I went to the Seminars because Bill Gothard taught on on parts of the Bible that I had never heard a pastor mention. He wasn't afraid of a little controversy because he didn't have to please the members of a church who would be offended at something in the Bible and perhaps stop giving a tithe in the offering plate. I asked my pastor why he didn't cover the subjects that Bill Gothard was covering and that's exactly what he said - it would make some members angry or uncomfortable. I'm thankful for Gothard taking those on!

[@hoosierlady3085]

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You for explaining this!

[@63stratoman]

I think I may have been at “Ground Zero” when I was going Navy training in Millington, TN. I attended the Baptist Church of which Michael Pearl was the former pastor. The church had some issues with his doctrine although they didn’t tell me and I was quite young in the Lord and still had much to learn. Many in the Church were heavily into Bill Gothard and faithfully attended his seminars but since I was single and barely out of my teens, it was of little relevance to me anyway. Much of Bill Gothard’s legalism was prevalent in IFB Churches but I think Bill Gothard was part of that culture than vice versa. I finally left this “flavor” of IFB back in 2003.

[@ctswag4204]

Legalism is a slippery slope. Trust in Jesus and live in the love the Father has for His children.

[@ryanprosper88]

I've heard of preachers like this guy who would visit women who had had hysterectomies after having difficult pregnancies and got told they were damned or were under judgment somehow because of that. Not just a single ministry, but an overall legalistic mindset that can dominate in certain circles.

[@ka9fon]

Humbly my opinion is that those preachers were damned themselves, evidently ignorant of the gospel. Obviously the American church needs a Reformation and a new Luther.

[@joanseaton1709]

Hysterectomy or tubes tied..perhaps?

[@arhansen85]

Todd I have to say you’ve done good work on this one as I’ve never seen eye to eye with Wretched on really anything before. ✌🏻

[@Iccdoc]

Yes, liberal woke antinomian Christians would love this video.❤

[@fireballxl-5748]

I agree as I hate the legalism....especially those who forbid alcohol when in 2 places OT and 2 places NT God compares (equates) drunkenness with gluttony. Forbid alcohol you must forbid food. Not that which goeth into a mouth defiles a man but that which cometh out of his mouth. The drunkenness scriptures are speaking against excessive drinking, which is a lust, as is excessive eating. One must be consistent in applying scripture.

[@generenshaw1412]

Why do Gods people attack each other? Satan is the enemy.

[@jonathanmarks3112]

Because Satan is perfectly willing and able to use God’s people to his advantage.

[@AmberDennis001]

Bill is not a good man. He hit a kid on the shiny happy people documentary. They should have thrown him in jail.

[@LisaKoffler]

Satan also his own "spawns," which are known as "bad seeds!"

[@jadude119]

Amen brother- loved this!!

[@5jtwhite]

The new ATI, IBLP, and Gothard-like movement is coming out of Moscow, Idaho now. Having been homeschooled in the 80's and early 90's, and now as a Baptist pastor, it always shocks me how many professing the amazing grace of God seek to return to the law and legalistic living to maintain their standing before God.

[@apollo1464]

I went to one of his week long things when I was young. I found it interesting and helpful perspective but I guess I missed all this. I didn’t join any cult. Years after I do remember a Christian friend whom I respected call BG a heretic. I thought that was interesting too.

[@collinjohnson2958]

My wife and her family were apart of this cult for many years. She is still suffering from the childhood abuse was subject to.

[@melissab7777]

Prayers for your wife sir. So terrible to manipulate and abuse others while using the name of our Lord to do so.

[@LisaKoffler]

I just hope your wife is getting lifelong help for PTSD! You need to support her in ANY way you're able to, just like 4 Duggar sisters, Jill, Jessa, Joy-Anna, and Jinger are getting help from their own husbands after their brother, Josh sexually abused them! Thankfully, he's now in prison where he belongs!

[@StonesAndSand]

Our family never joined ATI, but I did attend a sponsored event one weekend. Bill always had a court of minions surrounding him as he walked about the facility. It was just downright eerie.

[@JonathanGrandt]

7:11 Any parent would rightly teach their children that obeying mommy and daddy = safety, and disobedience opens you up to pain and trouble. But what the heck is Todd talking about a dirty needle between the toes?? What a wild way to misrepresent Gothard’s teachings. Wow Todd. That’s shameful.

[@CalabreseLady]

I didn’t grow up with Gothard but I did grow up in a very authoritarian home and still struggle with understanding if I am saved. We had zero rights or opinions. Children were not to be seen or heard. Zero privacy or trust from my mom. I try to be as spot on as I can with my behavior and thoughts. I was taught to strive for as close to perfection as possible and if I sin then I must do something to atone for my mistakes. So much guilt and stress… I will never measure up to the strict standards that were placed on me as a child.

[@franklinb5199]

I’m so sorry for your terrible childhood experiences. I can relate to feeling the drive for perfection. To your statement on not measuring up: The Bible tells us in the book of Romans that no one has measured up. We’ve all fallen short of the glory of God (perfection as you put it) through our wrong choices in life. This is where the grace of God comes to us. God knows that we are not perfect, but yet He still loves us. So much in fact, that He came to us as a human (Jesus) to die for our unperfectness (sin) so that we can be restored in relationship with Him. The Christian life is not an attempt to please God by becoming as perfect and good as possible. No! Rather, it is about trusting in God, pursuing Him. Our aim is not perfection, but God Himself. As we seek God, trust Him, love Him, obey Him, He starts to slowly change us and make us more perfect. You could say that being perfected is a result of pursuing and trusting God. And one day, God will remove all sin, temptation, and evil permanently, and we will have a perfect relationship with God and others. Won’t that be beautiful?

[@CalabreseLady]

@@franklinb5199 Thank you! Amen! I’ve been watching Todd as well as Pastor MacAurthur and learning so much. It is very difficult to unlearn so much negativity and let go of the guilt and stress. It will happen ☺️

[@keithwiebe1787]

@@CalabreseLady I see MacArthur as very much "his hiway or else". Everything else is evil in his mind and that's all I hear in his sermons. I have family that went to his seminary and othes. I disagree with those people a lot. Their politics are extreme rightwing too.

[@JimBischoff1184]

@@franklinb5199Well said ! ❤

[@atonementandreconciliation3749]

There are non-Christian hyper-controlling homes too. In Japan (non-Christian) teen suicides are common due to not being able to please the excessive expectations of parents. The point is that the problem is hyper-control, not a basic discipline of right and wrong at a functional level.