Why We Worship A**HOLE Characters (Rick & Morty, Breaking Bad, The Punisher) - Wisecrack Edition

[@DamonDrawsArt]

What I took away from Rick and Bojack is that when I find that I relate to these characters, they are not role models, but evidence that I have some emotional and psychological work to do. They are moral examples of the flaws in our own personalities that need to be recognized if we are to grow as people. I think it's alright to be entertained by a**holes, but if one feels a connection, it might be good to see that moment as an opportunity for reflection, as opposed to celebrating the flaws that create the connection.

[@venom-dd5rp]

well said.

[@Rithmy]

When reading this i thought how those storys are like how people with those flaws would like their world to be. If someone has those flaws it is possible to try to live with them instead of overcoming them. Afterall we first has to judge if it rly is a problem (realizing it is the first step).

[@dowhatyouwill]

Well said!

[@sparkpenguin]

should be top comment

[@norsegoat1408]

BoJack Horseman is such a good show.

[@christopherramsey7027]

This is also applicable to House, Sherlock, and Bojack Horseman.

[@andrewtodaro2874]

And Donald Trump 😒

[@valdavermillion4545]

@@andrewtodaro2874 No, not him. He's just dumb.

[@ritam8767]

Death Note too. The anime.

[@valdavermillion4545]

@@ritam8767 What about it? I don't think anyone really kins Light.

[@ritam8767]

@@valdavermillion4545 kins??

[@harikrishnanmc]

I was thinking of House. He fits in perfectly with this description too.

[@lulamax7942]

Harikrishnan Mankada Covilakam ya idk why he didn’t mention House-a perfect example. Maybe it’s a too old of a tv show to mention? Idk

[@newman6434]

idk rick and morty has dick jokes

[@noahwolton7662]

And by extension Sherlock

[@michaelm3691]

It's an overly simplified description though. Most of the people mentioned aren't as much direct assholes as they're somewhat imperfect, unconventional and single-minded. You might call that asshole behavior, but then compare it to the tribalism and bigotry of the average human regardless of nationality, race, religion and political observation. If someone disagrees with you, chances are you don't just think they wrong at that specific subject, but that they're fundamentally wrong as a human being. You might stay silent for fear of social consequences, but that doesn't make you any less of an asshole than those who don't have that filter.

[@dredeth]

House is my favorite TV show character.

[@shaunjimbangan1166]

Personally, the most important part about making us like characters who are jerks is self awareness. If the character is a douchbag and the story treats them like their not, then the audience will feel about him/her the same way they do about jerks in real life.

[@Reyven_]

Personally I always believed that because we live such repressed lives we envy the asshole since, while miserable, they are for the most part free to do what they want.

[@visorseen8954]

That is exactly why. Pin a man down and see that he has two morals: one he follows due to law/religion, and another he would wish to follow if the rules were made his way.

[@iwannhsss1435]

Am i the only one who worships Joker

[@ratedr7845]

@@iwannhsss1435 yes

[@Raziel312]

It's the illness of our age (besides covid). Everyone is fed up. Everyone is sick of being trampled on. Everyone is tired of not getting what they want. The problem is what YOU want is often the opposite of what THE OTHER GUY wants. So this turns into am anger at other people. At having to pretend we give a **** about the other person's opinions. At the very idea of compromise. At society. After all, why should YOU have to compromise when you're so OBVIOUSLY right? The asshole character does not compromise. They smash through anything or anyone in their way, because screw the thoughts and feelings of others. They GET WHAT THEY WANT. That's why we love them.

[@renatoe9648]

in this represive world most arealready miserable while following the rules, makes it sound apealing to be the asshole that ignore the rules and is free to act his own way even if he ends up miserable in the end. Spetially since you see so many real world assholes that get away with it

[@charleneong]

i feel like we all need to learn the difference between liking and empathizing with a character & idolising or defending them. you can love deeply flawed asshole characters (in fact the show is probably designed to that effect) but you can also acknowledge when they're being assholes ruining their own lives or other people. Nuance is also important. Being able to accept that grey areas of morality exist and realising that there arn't always Right and Wrong characters, only varying degrees of flawed and whether someone manages to overcome their faults or not

[@mihauification]

I still remember to this day the two guys who left the cinema after "wolf of wall street" right in front of me and were talking about how great the main character was and they should do the same... smh

[@ericyoung5184]

@Music & Whistle msk I never watched the movie for this reason (also why I only made it to ep 3 of GOT). I can't stand see aholes win so much. I mean I see it enough in the world.

[@ometta7]

Music & Whistle msk Keep in mind that the movie is based on the autobiography of the asshole it showcases, who would obviously see himself as the badass big-dick hero in a world full of dumpy losers who are just jealous of his success and want to bring him down because of how awesome he is. Yeah, people who work on Wall Street tend to be a little fucked up. You kinda have to be a psychopath to live so high on the hog while other people are struggling to find food or clean water in your own country. I think the director did a pretty good job of taking this real life over-privileged twatwaffle's "I'm a poor victim because everyone is jealous of me" narrative and showing it for the masturbatory bullshit that it is, specifically by showing just how insanely opulent his lifestyle really was and how ruthlessly he exploited other people for his own gain, and the FBI agent on the grim metro is a showcasing of how our broken system rewards evil people and punishes the just. Unfortunately, I think he might have just been too subtle in his delivery of that message. Oliver Stone probably intended for the audience to catch itself sympathizing with or rooting for Jordan before pulling back and asking ourselves why we're so conditioned to sympathize with such a disgusting monster...but the pulling back and questioning ourselves and our system part never really came for some people, probably because that would take introspection and looking inward is often uncomfortable.

[@interstellarsurfer]

@bbonner422 He's Jewish.

[@Whofan06]

Did they miss the part where the actual guy went to prison??

[@Interfaune]

I once applied for a job as a salesman and for research I checked the company's website. The "About us" section was just the trailer for Wolf of Wall Street... Nothing else. For real.

[@TheRetroReplay]

I was gonna say that yeah, it's pretty much the wish fulfillment to say "screw the rules, I do what I want" We related to Walter White because of a failed medical system, we relate to The Punisher because we're tired of seeing criminals get away with things, we relate to Rick because we want to go on adventures. But the issues with these characters is that they don't actually grant that wish fulfillment. Starting with Rick as that's the lowest hanging fruit, we would love to do what we want, when we want and if anyone tells us no, we flip them off without consequence and if they try to fight, blast them away with a laser and think nothing of it. Even if we could get away with whatever we wanted, the consequence would be loneliness as no one would put up with that for long, which is what comes from Morty and Jerry as they hate Rick's utter selfishness and disregard for those around him. And we do see that Rick is a lonely person, which is why he still hangs around his daughter's family, he doesn't need Morty anymore because the Galactic Federation is gone at the beginning of season 3, but still chooses to stay with his family when Beth chooses Jerry because he doesn't want to be alone. The Punisher's wish fulfillment fails because of who the Punisher goes after, most of the time, he goes after thugs, murderers, theives, drug dealers, essentially blue collar crime, occasionaly he goes after bigger targets like those in the mafia. But he never goes after white collar criminals, CEOs of big banks, pharmaceutical companies or companies that work their employees to death for minimum wage and abuse them like slaves, companies that break laws all the time, he doesn't go after the lawmakers that allow these companies to break these laws or who turn a blind eye to it, The Punisher isn't doing anything to change a broken justice system nor is he really doing anything to help it either. You'll never see the Punisher turn into a more violent version of Robin Hood, you won't see him track down a banker who is unlawfully foreclosing on someone's home and kicking them out into the street. Walter White is harder to pin down in this case, he's the easiest to empathize with early in the series because he wants to make sure his family is set for life after he dies, but as the show goes on, it gets harder to do that because his pride not only brings him down but destroys everyone else around him. Walter White is more of tragic hero than Rick or Frank, because he started in a high position before the series began only to be blinded by his pride and sold off his share of the company he made with his friend and ever since then it's been a reversal of fortune for Walter because his pride continues to work against him throughout the series. Rick Sanchez and Frank Castle aren't tragic heroes at all, their flaws don't cause the reversal of fortune, but the reversal of fortune is brought on by an outside force. Rick and Frank are what's considered a 90s anti-hero, where they do the things that the heroes won't do to achieve the same results but in a faster time because they break the law to do it. Walter White is the tragic hero because he evokes a sense of pity from the audience and you want to see him succeed, but eventually you just want to see him get what's coming to him as the series goes on.

[@Mad_Oph]

I think part of the draw is the catharsis of seeing a character taken to hyperbolic levels. It's easy for a vet, or a genius, or someone wronged by the system to feel like an outcast, and it can be compelling to see a member of those groups finally refuse to back down. The problem is when this becomes the norm. Characters like Rick, Frank, and Walter, they're not supposed to be role models; they're supposed to be the cautionary tale of someone truly refusing to fight their character flaws, and become their own tragic apotheosis. I think we kinda lost track of that when these over the top characters became widespread instead of being outliers.

[@generalhorse493]

Bam! You hit it right on the head mister!

[@ajguevara6961]

Wisecrack: You can't fight fate... Guts: Hold my beer.

[@fanimeproductionst.v.3735]

*Not so fast* ✋ The series hasn't ended yet

[@fanuelnduna8191]

@@fanimeproductionst.v.3735 well he's been doing a pretty good job so far

[@GamingMasterAnthony]

Goku: what about me?

[@PcCAvioN]

*starts swimming upriver*

[@thek2despot426]

*Kratos wants to know your location*

[@xczechr]

9:19 That police department is seriously misunderstanding their role in society.

[@RobFeldkamp]

yeah...that definatly scared me..

[@evansageser6943]

True but at a certain point that's part of the fault of the culture. How often does the cop who follows all the rules and plays by the book get to be the action hero? Our culture has taught us to glamorize quick action and pursuit of our goals against obstacles. I mean most people decide to become cops (aside from actually corrupt individuals) because they want to make a difference by reducing crime and pursuing justice. But when legal and bureaucratic obstacles stand in the way of those things, it's difficult not to view them as an ally to crime, and thus your enemy. Within such a framework, it's easy to see the appeal of a rogue vigilante like the Punisher, who is able to pursue justice without obstacles. The problem is that many of those obstacles were placed precisely because of the dangers that come from poor judgments by individuals as well as the potential for corruption that occurs when powerful institutions operate without oversight.

[@joesjoeys]

@@evansageser6943 Cops shouldnt go into their jobs expecting to be "action heroes", and the ones that do make the police even more hated amongst the populace.

[@lettylunasical4766]

@@joesjoeys Exactly, cops thinking they're fucking 'Judge Dredd' and running around shooting people up like it's a video game is precisely the issue. That's why people need to stop accepting this sort of behaviour from police; if they're that emotinally stunted they have no business being 'protectors of society.'

[@StephySon]

bbonner422 Ireland is doin a lot of shit right. They are chill as fuck right now

[@MrPinguinzz]

"rick and morty, the punisher and breaking bad spoilers ahead" 11:11 major spoiler to game of thrones

[@chickenslice86]

Seriously like thanks for 3/4 of a spoiler warning. Otherwise great video

[@seanhayes9056]

yeahhhhhhhh about that.

[@CalebCDubs]

a few seasons ago, if your not caught up now too bad

[@nateblack8669]

Holy shit, glad I saw this.

[@gaunterodimm3569]

D&D: Hold my starbucks coffee filled with stupidity!

[@brendondevilliers1350]

For me, I always felt it was their freedom that drew me to them. They say and do whatever they damn-well please without fear or remorse. Archer (From Archer) and Bernard Black (From Black Books) are my two fictional idols; basically for this reason.

[@TheVoiceOfReason93]

I generally chalked up our liking of asshole characters to two reasons: A) We find them more relatable than nice guys due to their deeply flawed nature mirroring our own. And B) Deep down, much as we do not want to admit it, some of us want to be assholes.

[@titaniumtomato7247]

My take on the title before watching Cause we can live vicariously through someone that can disregard consequences

[@zoedorrahm]

Not pretentious. Cause that's kinda how it works.

[@choakid999]

Zo Dor it’s pretty pretentious “I’m gonna weigh in on this situation based on the most surface level information provided

[@VultureClone]

As long as it stops there. I only take issue with morons going out and thinking the laws don't apply to them because they watched the Punisher and now they're all pumped up and angry.

[@commodorebuttfreckle6610]

also haven't watched yet, I always found the rudeness refreshing as almost every character you grow up with (kid shows and shit) were all overly nice and always helpful to everyone. I found "asshole" characters to be more relatable to people you'd meet in real life and even the person you are sometimes. Instead of a character portraying positive characteristics that everyone says you should have, the asshole has negative characteristics that we all have but maybe don't want to admit to. IDFK tho. That could all be my peanut brain trying to rationalize liking "fuggin badassss" characters.

[@dhoulmagusrhapthorne9082]

@@choakid999 lmao, he made a guess and was even admitting to not knowing beforehand. Y'all need to chill

[@thedeepfriar745]

Because we’re all cynical, miserable and depressed. I’d love for a meta show to blow a hole in all that cynicism, because we desperately need it.

[@someguy165]

The cynicism *is* meta

[@Jedimasta21]

I think these characters just appeal to the animal within. The one that wants eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and the power to control the world around him whether the world likes it or not. I mean Rick definitely has that kind of control of the world, and of course it doesn't end up working out for him in the end, but most of the time he's free from any immediate consequences of being an asshole, stepping on people, and doing whatever he wants. There's a part of every one of us that wants to be that kind of person. It comes to the mental forefront whenever someone cuts you off in traffic and you fantasize about slashing his tire or keying the side of his car. Every time you've wanted to punish someone for a wrong you perceive to have suffered, its that part of your mind that takes hold. These characters are just a fantasy that appeals to that side of us. For the most part we know that we just can't go around stepping on people, or destroying that which we don't like, but we still wish we could. Fiction allows us to explore that without it being absolute mayhem in the real world.

[@Heulerado]

You just reminded me of the Iliad, and how Achilles is the best at everything, does everything he wants to in the moment, kills whoever he is wronged by, but is still always miserable and can't find peace. Except when he finally forgives and accepts forgiveness. (point shamelessly stolen from Lindybeige)

[@brianmann9901]

Brilliant.

[@gabrielfrostbrand2754]

Much more than stepping on everybody, most people just want to be able to do that in order to not be stepped upon by others (or at least feeling safe from that). The use of a power fantasy for us is most of the time just about overcoming a feeling of powerlessness. Sadly enough there are always those real assholes out there who take this to their real life and victimize others to prop themselves up. Of course they usually do that in the most cowardly way possible by picking on the weak, ganging up, rigging everything in their favor via lying and manipulation, using other peoples morals against them etc. But for most normal people watching shows like Rick and Morty is enough and keeps the from turning into one of these people.

[@gregdesouza17]

Rick is basically a god, but is miserable... yet edgelords still think Rick is a nice 'rolemodel'... Go figure...

[@elevate07]

@gregdesouza17 Couldn't have said it better. Rick is that kid that spends every single day eating ice cream cake. The problem is that if you eat ice cream cake long enough you start to hate it and get desensitized to why it's a treat in the first place. On the flip side Jerry is that guy who has never had anything better than McDonald's in his life. His taste is shit but he's never had anything better so he's unaware of that and is perfectly content in what he has.

[@DTCTS]

10:30- Reminds me of the world's greatest scene from a show: Vikings. A character speaks to a seer who can see the future: "You and your gods are wrong. You see, I guided my fate. I fashioned the course of my life and my death. Me. Not you. Not the gods. Me. It was my idea to come here to die. 'Your so-called' prophecies are dangerous. By telling her she would never have another child yet she got pregnant but then because of your words she put her unborn baby in danger, so what if she didn't hear your words? what if she thought it would have survived. She would have rested and protected it, and she would be the proud mother of a healthy child. You presented her a destiny, and she manifested it."

[@ard3336]

The charcaters are portrayed in such a way that their actions are justified. The nilhilism of rick, the breaking bad crime mafia, etc. all protagonist are all humane because a person seeing it sees how this character makes his choice.

[@parniananbr8353]

Making a video about arsholes and not mentioning Dr.House? How could you

[@Zones33]

or Robert baratheon

[@stephaniepuentes6714]

Agree. I was going to write the same thing.

[@parniananbr8353]

@@Zones33 um I don't think so. How robert fits in this? House and rick are both functioning addicted genuises, robert is just addicted :)))

[@AnhHoang-cx8es]

@@parniananbr8353 He's a drunk, a whoremonger, a shit husband and a negligent father, he's an asshole.

[@NegationOfNegation]

Also Sherlock. Whose character inspired to write Doctor House.

[@frankjaeger2565]

You could have added Bojack (especially considering his arc in season 5)

[@fakegmale4648]

Frank Jaeger i feel like everyone who watches bojack can see that he’s not a good person and his lifestyle leaves him empty

[@frankjaeger2565]

@@fakegmale4648 The same goes for Rick.

[@giuliazwerger]

But I would say Bojack is not a BAD person either he is just somehow neither

[@benjamimcarvalho0]

But the thing is that no one sees BoJack as a role model, even the most die hard of fans know he's an egotistical, self destructive asshole. On the other hand, many worship Rick, Walter White and other asshole characters even though they're meant to be hated.

[@TheSquad4life]

Bojack is different in a way cos the show goes through pains to show us he’s not admirable .Bojack is trying to be better and even seems like he’s not cool with his flaws. Also he’s not constantly an asshole like Rick and indifferent to human emotions

[@HolisticPolitix]

Can’t wait for your take on Endgame. I think doing a psycho-analysis on each of the main avengers processing of grief and trauma could be great, but am very excited to see what you all come up with!

[@deltanebula8622]

Great video! I'm personally glad I don't really "worship" these people, but I'm honestly also thankful that I now know why I sympathize with these characters more than I would like to. I mean, Rick and Morty and Breaking Bad were both some of my favorite shows for their character realism and storylines.

[@A-Oh-Trey]

Maybe the real assholes are the friends we made along the w-- Nah, for real, this was good. It would bother me a bit when I'd hear something like somone saying they rooted for Heisenberg, but I get it now. In the asshole characters you focused on, we see people who are able to transcend the rules and norms of a society that we often see as unjust and unfair. It's understandably aspirational, but we also shouldn't let it allow us to lose sight of the flaws in those characters that make them bad people. I find Rick immensely entertaining as a character, but I also recognize the guy is a dick who emotionally manipulates his daughter and is all-around negligent. He deserves to be where he's at in the family hierarchy at the end of S3.

[@fernisaperson]

3:54 All those masks without large mouths prolly weren’t real Greek theatre masks. The masks were used to amplify the sound using the large shape of the mouths that would help actors project their voices farther. Those ones at that time stamp are all just gonna stop the sound

[@realmatic10]

Fernando Perez He’s a legitimate moron. A critical theorist at his worst.

[@fitnesspoint2006]

No one cares. The sooner u realize that the better.

[@YagabodooN]

Well said, I believe its because we desire control and we admire people who are willing to suffer the consequences of being a jerk to gain a degree of freedom in their lives; also because many people are tired of living reserved, inoffensive vanilla lives on autopilot and these characters remind them that they too could possibly do things differently.

[@jbasti227]

Thanks for another great video. Another character that immediately came to mind when I read the title is Frank Gallagher from Shameless

[@uberchops]

The problem is peoples' egos refusing to accept the idea that there's any room for self-improvement. If I'm an asshole and I identify with Rick, I'm going to to jump through as many hoops as it takes to avoid admitting there's anything wrong with him because that means admitting there's something wrong with ME. Dan Harmon isn't creating assholes; the assholes were there the whole time. Also, as much as I appreciate Wisecrack holding the world's audience to something resembling a standard, the sad fact is that a lot of people just have shit reading/watching comprehension and wouldn't recognize the point of a story if it gouged out their eyes and made them fuck their own mother.

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

this

[@crusaderking2257]

100%. Whenever I try having conversations about media with people they always look at me funny and have completely missed the point - they just want to be brain dead and watch flashy eye candy

[@satyasyasatyasya5746]

@@crusaderking2257 I think its the way people see the external world now. Everything is just a tool, a means to an end, or axiomatically meaningless. Its like some unspoken consensus whereby people bury themselves in all that is shallow and don't even care or think for a moment, that such behaviour or world view could be bad, dangerous or sinister. Its a numbing if not comforting, kind of a-aesthetic nihilism. Somehow, I think we all know we're fucked (politically, economically, environmentally) so, we all kind of take everything at face value to avoid ever learning anything so that we don't risk caring. Because if you care, you hurt. And we don't want to face the pain of how awful the world is. Eventhough, we already somehow, know that already. Talking about media (eventhough it is mostly crap, there are still some messages there) is the first step to critiquing the world, critiquing the world leads to disapointment, disapointment leads to pain, pain leads change, change leads to conflict, conflict leads to more pain.. because we can't win.

[@alexong2542]

sometimes, there are some people who just can't improve. Can you tell a psychopath who was born defective to improve by telling him "why can't you understand emotions like everyone else?" Because they just can't. Everyone's different. And not everyone can be saved or improve themselves. Some of them might be as you said, just egoistic assholes who don't wanna admit their flaws, and there are some who tried to change , but failed inevitably, and they can only accept that they just can't change and embrace it fully.

[@1998rg]

uberchops breaking bad fans are the prime example of idiots who couldn’t get the Point

[@Saoirse_don_Phalaistín]

Ngl kinda surprised you didn't once mention season 5 of Bojack Horseman, whose show not only has a main character that is a gigantic asshole (and whom the show creator has also expressed his shock at how many people related to him) but the entire season was about this subject matter specifically

[@ECL28E]

The difference is Bojack is taking strides to better himself. The rest of these characters don't, except Walter. Also, Bojack isn't a murderer. Rick, Frank, and Walter kill people. Bojack isn't directly responsible for killing anyone.

[@goodcorwin627]

@@ECL28E ok, lets give a Bojack Horseman spoiler alert here, and there might be some wiggle room depending on your definition of "directly responsible", but... . . . . . Sarah Lynn? Sarah Lynn? ... Sarah Lynn?

[@UberNorwegianBastard]

Yeah was looking for this comment. Bojack S5 is literally about the same as this video.

[@alejandroantoniovaladezuva4504]

The Joker, Alex DeLarge, Travis Bickle, Tyler Durden...

[@seanwieland9763]

Anti-heroes are the best heroes.

[@Stephenmusic92]

Not part of the notification squad. Just an early boi with no life.

[@tommyswain3762]

good, me too

[@KreisTyler]

Same my guy

[@seardrax527]

Im not even that early here im just here to take space

[@martinp3166]

I'm right there with you gang... today sucked

[@xxo-deathshot-oxx2047]

Peace & Love that’s nice ...fucking Christ people are attention whores

[@MattyIce81]

Each one of those characters that was listed also knows themselves and accepts who they are (as far out from social norms as they may be) unapologetically; rather than being cowed into acting as others would have them do, each one of them acts authentically.

[@matheussanthiago9685]

2 wisecracks in 3 days? I'm not even mad

[@spartandumpster1158]

My guess has always been that the characters portray a small aspect of what many of us want to be, or at least things we want to do, and/or we can relate, sometimes even agree with them because they're in positions we aren't in (and might never be in), depending on the character. I figure that if they reflect someone you want to be, or things you want to do, then you only admire that they can be or do those things while sort of ignoring the worst parts of the character. Sort of like thinking a super villain has a cool power, which they use in really creative ways, so you think "I'd love to have that power, but I'd use it differently." When I refer to something we want to be or do, I'm mainly talking about being more assertive and making more extreme actions when you're dealing with bullshit without negative results. This works more with characters like Rick Sanchez. I'm not saying most people wish they could straight up murder or completely ruin the lives of anyone who slightly inconveniences us, like Rick might do from time to time. If your boss tells you you have to work on a certain day despite you asking for that day off in advance, and it doesn't matter if you say this, your boss might even look like they enjoy screwing you over like this. When this sort of thing happens, you're most likely to just put your head down and take it, but you wish that you could find some way to screw them over, put them on the spot by outsmarting them, or maybe even coerce them with a bit of physical violence, but if you really did all that, you're most likely going to get fired, maybe even arrested, or the least they'll do is mess with you whenever they see the chance. We like characters who can listen to that evil voice in their head every now and then without really getting into trouble. I also think of "Happy Gilmore" where he punches people for making fun of him, but there's never any blood, and in real life he'd be arrested for assault, so it's fun to see a character throw some punches, or making extreme decisions in response to minor problems. In the case of characters like Walter White, if anything most people can sympathize, if not agree with his motivation. I would want to make sure that my family is taken care of when I'm gone, and I would like to say I'd even be willing to do some shady stuff to ensure they'll be taken care of. Why would I be scared of being tried or going to jail, I'm going to die anyway. I think the Punisher embodies both of these ideas, where he's being screwed over by people and responding with extreme actions, though arguably justifiable or appropriate given his circumstances. People can understand seeking vengeance, if someone murdered a member of my family, I'd want to see them face retribution, through either being convicted and sentenced to prison, or preferably them being executed. In a similar sense to "who cares, I'm going to die anyway" that Walter White faces, because the Punisher's family is dead, he thinks "I just want revenge, I don't care what I have to do to get it, I have nothing more to lose!" Since this is the type of situation a very small percentage of people can really relate to (it seems very rare for an entire person's family to be murdered, especially without them being killed in the process), it is easier for people to sympathize and relate (in some extent) to the Punisher in theory. In the off chance my entire family is murdered and I really have no one left in my life, I don't see why I wouldn't go on a rampage to kill their murderers. That's also why I hate when the argument "it won't bring them back" is overused, mainly because it doesn't seem like the character wants to kill them because they think it will bring their loved ones back, or that they care that what they're doing is wrong, it seems pretty clear they just want revenge regardless of whether or not it will cost them their future, freedom, and even their soul or humanity, sometimes they see it as those things were already taken from them too!

[@mide2476]

Is what you mean. In other words they are things we wish to do, but can't. So we appericate characters that do.

[@TheLazyReviewer]

We worship them because deep down we all find them relatable in their struggles, despite their flaws. It's what makes them strangely simpathetic even if we do not want to admit it.

[@wolfhawk1999]

I think people just want to be more assertive and care less deep down

[@wophful]

I agree with what Casey P said. It’s about throwing away social norms. If it was just sympathy people wouldn’t idolize them they’d just feel bad for them.

[@TheLazyReviewer]

@@wophful I agree with what you guys are saying, it's just that sympathy is one of the reasons why we can relate to antiheroes. Another reason its because they represent our ways of how we want to cope with the frustrations that society delivers upon us.

[@krystalshelby]

*sympathetic

[@erin_3569]

I find Jesse Pinkman way more relatable than Walter

[@SamScicluna]

Great analysis! I think one thing that wasn’t brought up about these characters’s reverence by the fans is their ability to “win” or be the best at whatever they’re putting their mind to. Even if their focus is on morally reprehensible things there’s that Michael Jordan effect when it comes to a character being so great at what they do which appeals to those of us watching who are ultra competitive

[@lucidicrain]

Rorschach would have been a good one to include in here. Especially since the comics go into how his views were shaped by his upbringing rather than any personal choices.

[@adren4306]

Good one, but Rorschach isn't idolized as much as Rick or Frank as a hero they want to be. Unlike them, who are shown as very, very human, Rorschach is frequently dehumanised within the comic, where the reader rarely knows what he's thinking. Tyler Durden, on the other hand, seems like a character that is very human and relatable, and was widely imitated and idolised by real people, even though he was shown as the villain of the movie, and an obviously horrible person. He's not as recent as the rest, which is probably why Jared didn't bring him up.

[@lucidicrain]

Adren, that’s a good point, and I definitely agree about the Tuler Durden option. I guess I was just drawing from the people I saw the movie with who all seemed to take his judge, jury, and executioner attitude as admirable

[@dabossman5650]

@@lucidicrain I dont think rorschach is that bad tbh-hes obviously not ideal but hes rlly not that bad and he always targets the right ppl-also seems pretty effective

[@Frustratedartist2]

On the other hand, he is still far better morally than many other characters in Watchmen. He's f***ed up, but he's only killing criminals. You have rapists and massive killer in the cast, so he's actually quite solid.

[@maxfarley2519]

"In heaven, all the interesting people are missing" - Friedrich Nietzsche Also, by the way, some characters who qualify as likable assholes: Tony Soprano Walter White Rick Sanchez Negan Tyrion Lannister The Joker Deadpool Dexter Morgan Jack Torrence Pennywise Ultron Loki The Penguin The Riddler Frank Underwood Saul Goodman Tony Montana Don Vito Corleone Vincent Vega Jules Winnfield Django Buffy Summers Wolverine

[@akaking7499]

There's no beating fate Guts: I'm going to stop you right there!

[@kevinjahns5107]

Always Sunny strikes the perfect balance in my opinion. The characters are relatable assholes and people enjoy the show, but people don’t idolize Dennis, Mac, Charlie, Dee or Frank.

[@Badmanpuntbaxter]

I think it's the IMMEDIATE consequences of their assholery and lack of "badass moments" that really cements it. It doesn't take a season for their payback to catch up to them, and they're never motivated by anything other than narcissism. I love it

[@SirDougDimmadome]

How did House, Sherlock and the Joker not come up in this?

[@elielsaf3362]

Good point. Fun fact, House *is* Sherlock. Holmes=House. Sherlock has a best friend named Watson, House has Dr. Wilson. They are both self-centered, highly intelligent, drug addicts who solve problems that no one else can, but more for their amusement than to make a difference. It's not accidental, Dr. House's adress is 221B Baker Street, same as Sherlock Holmes.

[@muhammadqasim7056]

How did archer miss out?

[@Iam-mh7oi]

Or Dexter

[@SurprisinglyDeep]

@@muhammadqasim7056 Possibly because Archer's personality defects are shown as a hindrance to his potential and abilities rather than as an asset

[@SurprisinglyDeep]

@@Iam-mh7oi Possibly with Dexter because the character, being a psycopath, is biologically and mentally incapable of improving himself unlike say Walter or Rick.

[@mvslice]

These are usually the types of people who insult me by calling me a Chad.

[@thirdandhappy]

thanks again for another phenom of a video. Another aspect I think to these types of characters is their talent/power. With their ability in their respective areas we vicariously experience what it would feel like to be so talented that our world listened to us rather then the other way around. It is an exciting fantasy to imagine that kind of power.

[@tornadochaser2457]

I think the worship is a combination of two things - It's due to the characters being relatable despite their flaws, resulting from them having problems we can relate to and therefore emphasise with, and due to them going against the rules forced upon us by society. The edginess of "fighting the man" and defiantly being free of societal restrictions is attractive.

[@luzciano]

Great video. Here in Brazil, we have the Capitan Nascimento brutal policeman who uses violence and torture to fight against the drug dealers on the Slams of Rio de Janeiro. the Films Elite Squad 1 and 2. The filmmakers and the actor Wagner Moura expressed that the character of Capitan Nascimento is an outlaw, who abuses his power as a cop. Should not be admired... and exactly this happens right wings use the image of the character as a hero against corruption and what happens is this was also used to win the last presidential elections here. They distorted the criminal cop to a hero against crime and even real cops use their images on cars and web pages. This is crazy and shows us how media are changing reality and the narrative of facts.

[@MRCKify]

Batman: "I have only one rule." Joker: "Well tonight you're going to have to break that rule."

[@apenasmaisumdiogo.7115]

Brasileiro aqui também! Muito legal esse exemplo, é assustador perceber que o Brasil tá tão desesperado que transforma uma crítica à polícia brasileira num exemplo só porque ele dá sensação de imponência.

[@iau]

These are the kind of characters teens should be analyzing at school. We may have empathized with centuries old characters centuries ago, but today, teens and young adults don't care about them. Then they go out and see these more realistic portrayals and think this is what real life looks like.

[@SupLuiKir]

modern tragic heroes are popular because they tell stories of martyrdom.

[@nathanblake3647]

This was a really insightful and super enjoyable bit of commentary on some of our favourite characters! Thank you guys so much for the work you do! Please keep it up!

[@Stories4SaleMedia]

Honorable mention: Eric Cartman

[@787brx8]

Character is based on A real person named Jeremy Smith.

[@SprinkleB0mb]

Eric isn't just an asshole he's pure evil

[@animeveteran]

This is a fascinating dive. At one point, I found myself almost obsessing over the story of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. There was the prim and proper individual, and then the aggressive and entirely dominating personality of his shadow. I was raised in a town that seemed full of polite, passive-aggressive people who can't even handle the idea of conflict out in the open, let alone saying what's actually on your mind. Then I find characters like Mr. Hyde and other villains who are able to talk blunt, get what they want, and don't let any social pressure or societal stigma stop them from doing so. Having that kind of control over one's own decisions and choices is an intoxicating draw. Of course, the consequences rear their ugly heads in the end. But it is still difficult to look at the 'screw what everyone says, I'm going to do what I want' model of behavior and not be a little envious of the power it can hold.

[@Overton_Windows]

Larry David is regularly asked “is the Larry we see in Curb Your Enthusiasm the real Larry”. His response is “that character is my version of Superman. All the things I wish I could say/do in social interactions”. I think that’s a lot of it: most people aren’t willing to be that forward while truly not giving a fuck. But there are times everyone would like to. That’s the appeal. Or at least part of it...

[@Dragonstar6]

A great video with spot on comparisons to Greek theatric traditions. One small problem. Walter White doesn’t quite fit as well as the other two tragic heroes. There seems to be some misconception that “he had no choice” when he decided to start making drugs to pay for his medical care. He did have a choice because he had health insurance (an HMO if I’m not mistaken) through his job, but wanted a doctor that was outside his network. That was the driving force that required him to pay out of pocket and the need for insane amounts of money. The family aspect may have driven him to his path even if he stuck with the provided health care, but might have undercut the pride element somewhat. Or enhanced it if it was played up as the self deluded rationalization for why he had to make drugs. But Rick and the Punisher fit the tragic hero archetype perfectly. Thank you guys for all the thoughtful research and effort you put into all your videos.

[@greenmedic88]

They do the things normal, average people either can't do, or lack the will to do. If an individual cannot imagine themselves as a given asshole character with the ability and will to act in the same manner, they will neither worship, envy or even admire that character because they simply do not relate.

[@EinsamPibroch278]

If you don't want people to worship Punisher, don't make him a firking Comic Book Superhero! The creator is clearly Captain D*psh*t.

[@fehzorz]

But Walter White didn't need to be a meth dealer. Gretchen and Elliot offered to pay for his treatment and he refused out of pride. He also continued to cook and deal meth after going into remission (in fact he's angry when he finds out he's in remission). The show gives him many "outs" that he refuses to take.

[@joelcastro-reyes1667]

That's how pride and ego work: no matter how many opportunities he got to have a good life, he wouldn't allow himself to be vulnerable enough. Remember that speech to Skyler? "I did it for me." That explains everything he ever did.

[@koalasquare2145]

This is by far my favourite episode ever, great job guys

[@cravenoise]

Have you ever read "Hero of Our Time" by Mikhail Lermontov? I feel his take on the Byronic hero has a lot of parallels with this, and one of the main lessons I got from reading it, and the lesson I think my professor wanted me to get, was that I can indeed relate to such asshole characters, and I shouldn't be ashamed of that because we all do. Dan Harmon's fears about his fandom ruining the party exactly that lesson embodied. Perhaps the only difference between people who act like Rick and people who enjoy watching Rick is the self-awareness one might have to understand how they relate and why they enjoy Ricks antics, while not actually having a desire to play them out in their own lives.

[@toniogro]

This problem can be seen as well here in brazil with José Padilha's Elite Squad (same director of narcos and the robocop remake), the first movie can be read as glorifying the violence used by the police towards drug dealers and even users in the favelas. Padilha has even made a second movie to try and show the problem is deeper and spoke publicly in these terms but it didn't seem to have the same effect as his first movie made.

[@pranavmathur9114]

I've watched quite a few of these videos and it surprises me that we've been doing the same things for so long, just presenting it as something different.

[@Homelessgrunt]

pranav mathur Exactly, here’s a little secret.. all the bullshit we do everyday is going to be the same thing somebody else has already done before us for the rest of our lives. Nothing is original, nothing is new, everything is the same shit just presented differently.

[@griffin3508]

Isnt it funny that people in the rick and morty universe don't seem shocked by any of the cool things rick can do, like they are so cavalier about different realities, changing into a young body, pickle rick like the physchiatrist was like insanely okay about seeing a pickle person...lol

[@Joe-mz6ez]

🤔 Makes a lot of sense. Hey wisecrack, why don't you make a video on the "bad boy" trope for romantic novels. I always wondered why people like to romanticism "bad boys" and the obviously "toxic" relationships associated with it

[@titaniumtomato7247]

Joe i doubt they watch that stuff They do philosophy mostly not just media

[@anthonynorman7545]

+

[@Joe-mz6ez]

@@titaniumtomato7247 I'm pretty sure they can pull a parallelism between the idea that we worship assholes as a sort rebel against society and the idea that people love assholes in love movies a social osmosis between people absorption of the media and our own lack of personal standards on those matters. Thought what do it know? I can't get my mind to understand that, and it's just a suggestion

[@Joe-mz6ez]

@Music & Whistle msk really? Thanks bro!

[@Joe-mz6ez]

@Music & Whistle msk eh... I remember who this guy is... I can't say that I liked it... But regardless thanks

[@MarcColten-us2pl]

I never understood the appeal of Dexter or Game of Thrones. Unless the fans have a sadistic streak and wish that they, like their “heroes” of the story, wish they too could be their own law and could torture the society around them. And this is just fiction, Read "Asshole Nation" and you'll see how this oozes into the real world.

[@Tacom4ster]

Bojack Horseman season 5 deconstructed this archetype, which is why that show is way better than Rick and Morty

[@moonblade7564]

Idk how people even idolize any characters at all. While I can relate to many characters in fiction I am far from romanticizing any of them

[@seanconnolly5968]

Another great movie example in this is D-Fens in Falling Down.

[@kyle.Al196]

What’s interesting about the punisher, is that since his debut in the 1970’s he’s become more of a relatable character, his creation during in that area in America was a difficult time, with the end of the Vietnam war, the discovery of the watergate cover up, and the rise of violent crime, many people turned to the rise of the anti hero in popular culture, from death wish and Dirty Harry, Frank Castle also became a societal reflection of the growing distrust of the broken justice system and the government as a whole, with the beginning of the 21st century the society we live in has become a fractured one, with distrust of all systems in our country at a all time high many can understand and relate to Franks simplistic yet violent method of vigilante justice.

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

*Lesson Of The Day:* Anti-Heroes were a-holes all the time, because their flaws gave them humanity. So that's why we always praised for their a-hole ways.

[@xblade149]

Not all anti heroes are assholes

[@MatthewNolan101]

You guys constantly produce some of the most thoughtful content on KZbin. Thank you for that and please keep it up! :)

[@ByronDZero]

At the end of the day these characters rarely have to deal with the long term effects of the myriad of poor choices that they make. Just like Homer Simpson in the episode "Secrets to a successful marriage"

[@rikorobinson]

I think it's much simpler. Our society is more interested in creating obedient worker drones, rather than critically thinking people. So they absorb the simplicity of what they perceive from a message, rather than the complexity that might take some thought. And with that lack of mental tools making deductive reasoning impossible, these fools think they're getting the message. But they most definitely are not.

[@sorenkazaren4659]

To me Rick (and by extension Jerry) are the embodiments of the phrase “Ignorance is Bliss”

[@Shuizid]

Neither seem very blissfull.

[@sorenkazaren4659]

@Shuizid Eh... to be ignorant is to be unaware. Depending on how you view that it could be blissful. For example. Someone’s family dies horrifically. But the person is on other side of the world. They are ignorant/unaware of their family’s demise. And therefore they aren’t bothered by it. Or climate change is slowly destroying the world. But you don’t know it exists. You can’t be emotionally impacted by that which you know literally nothing of. As for how it can be blissful. I would look no further than children. Fresh into this world and with little to no understanding of the bad parts of it. Not ALWAYS blissful. But certainly when they don’t know what death is. Or disease. A lot of things weigh people down as they become aware of them.

[@Shuizid]

@@sorenkazaren4659 Problem with your theory is: you only look at people who are in a happy state and don't know about bad things. But what about the other way around? What if the person knows there was a serious accident where their family is and they don't know if something happened to them? Are they happy or worried sick? What about the child, that does know about climate change but now what to do about it? I say this because I once worked with a woman who didn't know a lot about economy or politics and she downright said, being unknowing is not fun. She was annoyed by the fact, that she couldn't follow what's happening. And this is only one example for billions: people who don't know sht about the world, except that something isn't going well for them. Those people are not happy, they are scared and desperately looking for guidance. Unfortunately, they find it in Nazis and conspiracy bullshit - because competent people don't pretend there would be easy answers and that scares them away.

[@sorenkazaren4659]

@Shuizid I can see where you are coming from. But that person wasn’t totally ignorant. They knew something about the world. What they knew was that it wasn’t good. Thats the thing here. If Earth was a Utopian society then knowing more about it would make us happier. But unfortunately it isn’t. Knowing more about it in many cases simply makes us unhappy. I do see that it isn’t necessarily bliss per se though. Bliss is certainly a strong word to use here. And it could be argued that you can also be ignorant of good things too, thereby limiting your happiness. So it could go either way yes.

[@Shuizid]

@@sorenkazaren4659 Oh knowledge is nice - it includes the knowledge of how to cope with problems, on how to get happy even in times of sadness. You do forget that people are living in this world and do things in it and more often than not, don't do what they'd like to. Just because someone doesn't know about the world, doesn't mean they don't notice how it affects them. We are talking about "ignorant" people, not people with sever mental dysfunctions and can't be "not ignorant". And most of them don't need knowledge to notice their life kinda sucks, they are stuck in a lowpaid deadend job, only have a mediocre relationship, mediocre sexlife, propably got children without planning for it and only half-decent know how to deal with them, because their parents only half-knew how to raise them (and the circle continues). Those people make up the vast majority of the world - and they don't need some superficial knowledge to feel bad. What they would need is knowledge on how to cope with that - how you don't need some fked up conspiracy to feel ok about the world, or join some kind of cult or whatever. I am pretty sure there are actual studies on the topic, showing people with a higher education generally are happier. Why so? Well because they know how to cope with issues. For example, I know this conversation takes up a lot of time without offering benefits - yet I do it because it's entertaining and a mental challenge and some practice in my second language. I know this cheers me up. Not knowing this would make my life worse ;)

[@thetokenwon506]

Simple answer because it’s not real. These are fictional characters that allow people to step outside of the ordinary world for a little while. Normal people don’t idolize these characters we do love them in the same way we love Superman or captain America. It’s basic escapism.

[@mcgrudo]

The Joker is the most puzzling, to me at least

[@thewildcardperson]

Tony McCowen jokers fun because he always has all the power and knows exactly what’s going to happen while at the same time being able to manipulate and destroy anything even turn you against yourself

[@Krasbin]

The joker deflates the hero, just as the court fool reminded the king of his limited life.

[@wophful]

I don’t get it either man. I understand why he works in fiction because he’s the perfect foil to Batman. But why do people like him so much? I will never understand.

[@МахамбетМамыров]

Because he represents chaos and anarchy. And didn't you ever want to tear down system you live in. Also there are multiple interpritations out there and most of them are vague enough, so they are can be many things.

[@Themachomanic]

I always preferred Riddler.

[@adeleinetheartist8267]

There are people love and obsess over characters that are jerks.

[@mboettcher349]

Alec Baldwin has said the same thing about his character in Glengarry Glen Ross.

[@ktvx.94]

I honestly hadn't dug that deep into the tragedy part, but the "fight against the system" part of Rick gets more relatable in the little details as he makes sarcastic jokes and critiques on society. Rather than as a whole, identification works on a bit-by-bit basis

[@WolfiePH]

*Wisecrack:* You can't beat fate. *Kratos:* Boy, hold my blades of chaos.

[@brianhayes1105]

This was a very insightful video with great examples. I personally love a lot of the aforementioned shows, but was disturbed by how many people didn't see how tragic their lives were. Instead of seeing their flaws as being something that needs to be resolved and/or addressed throughout the narrative, the audience these days tend to think of these characters as somehow getting a raw deal, by having to address the unfairness of society. It's easy to blame society for all, if not most of your problems. Heck a lot of the times, certain aspects of your life are outside of your control, and resentment is completely understandable. The question I come across in my own life is how much of that resentment is justifiable or even helpful, since the extreme measures that are usually necessary to wrest control from society's grasp over your life are usually not worth it in my estimation. Really if one looks at modern narratives, it helps to recognize that life is not like these television shows, movies, and video games. The writers attempt to relate to the audience's innermost frustrations and yearnings, which are manifested into a conflict that you, as the viewer, get to go along for in an exciting ride where those frustrations/yearnings are satiated in a cathartic release at the climax. And even though real life can feel like that at times, it causes a great amount of suffering to expect and even to seek out that cathartic release, as reality generally punches you in the mouth when you go too far outside the realms of what is socially reasonable/attainable. It also creates a divide between reality and fantasy, which do intersect, but the world we create together should not be based off of idolization of these tragic characters.

[@GamingMasterAnthony]

“There’s no beating fate, period.” Naruto Uzumaki would like to have a word with you.

[@ratedr7845]

@@WrathofFenrir99 don't pull that card

[@marleneg7794]

So would Morphious

[@PHRCpvh]

*Cough*...The child of prophecy.

[@mmathapelolehutso2033]

Neat! Thousand likes for this comment;)

[@NUCLEARDASH]

Guts laughing hard at this coment

[@criticaargumentada2413]

THE PHILOSOPHY OF "MAD MEN", PLEASE! P.S: I think you've oversimplified the issue, but it's still a great analysis.

[@schwarzeseis4031]

Is Rick an A-Hole? Maybe, but given that he was married at some point, and happily so for all we know, he cannot always have been. Personally, I see him as a case of PTSD, complete with alcoholism and abusiveness. You say his surpreme intelligence is his flaw, I say his intelligence is what kept him going after he lost everything and allowed him to survive and regain what little he has, with his flaw either being, like with Breaking Bad, his pride, or, as can happen with PTSD, his caution-on-steroids -- whatever it is that will not let him go through therapy. He just will not allow anyone to (completely?) understand him, as that would make him vulnerable. Admitted, you can also argue that Rick is wishfulfilment incarnate -- he has no need to care for anything (yet for some things he does), and in spite of everything thrown at him and all his personal shortcommings (I agree that he does nothing to better himself, and why would he? In his own evaluation he is the Rickest Rick, i.e. perfect already), he just keeps going, often challenged, never defeated. And off course, being highly intelligent sometime just means that there are more interesting ways to fck up^^.

[@OcyTaviAh]

Sure, he has PTSD, but mental health issues don't excuse behaviour. I have PTSD, I'm not an abusive asshole. And he is an asshole, that's not even debatable

[@TheNuclearGeek]

We're all assholes. Because, there isn't a single person anywhere that thinks society is "just right"

[@liberpolo5540]

This gave me lots of Joker (2019) vibes

[@geekspeakmadechic4003]

The punisher isn’t an asshole, he rids the streets of scum/rapists/organized crime/murders

[@esnaydermartinez6650]

I know it’s not as popular an anime as others here in the States but I would love for you guys to give Hunter x Hunter a chance! The Chimera ant arc is in my opinion one of the best written arcs ever!

[@GenerationNextNextNext]

So surprised by it's lack of popularity!

[@devinweathers7520]

that was absolutely a very significant analysis on that I keep props to you and your team well done well done

[@dietmetal]

All I can hear is Vicarious (by Tool) playing in my head as I watch this video.

[@dixcy_parashar]

Vicariously, i live while the whole world dies, much better you than i

[@jasonlawson01]

Vicarious + Twin Peaks. Greatest link up in history.

[@edeworabraham2761]

This guys video are getting longer by the day but still worth it

[@FluffyBuzzard2TheMax]

Mad men is another example of this, Mad men in particular strikes me as a reflection on our own modern narcissistic society

[@EmpiresDawn]

In my opinion Breaking Bad was to some extent an experiment on how long a viewer will stick to a character that constantly degrades on a moral level. If you still liked Walt after he watched people die, brought planes down, killed, poisoned kids ... well, this might tell you something about your own moral construct.

[@pedroscoponi4905]

I need this video played through a megaphone across the internet

[@thinkdiffrent6322]

can you do a philosophy video on LOVE DEATH and ROBOTS please, you can just choose one episode but a whole breakdown of the series would be awesome.

[@vaughnwesley9178]

You guys should do the “Philosophy of Xavier: Renegade Angel”.

[@JaimeNyx15]

This is what Wisecrack does best. Excellent job, guys!

[@joaomesquitarodrigues8034]

Frank Underwood, Tommy Shelbey, Harvey Specter, Omar Little, and so on

[@luedriver]

what about making a video about the anti-villain An Anti-Villain is the opposite of an Anti-Hero - a character with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues who is ultimately villainous. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there are evil.

[@David-xt9uf]

Most of us are going to end up rooting for ANY well-written, well-developed protagonist independent of their moral compass.

[@deepfriedsalt567]

I think Rick worship goes one step further as he's able to almost overcome fate unlike the heroes of ancient Greece. This is best illustrated by Rick's interaction with Beth after cloning Tommy. "So if I'm just like you, does that make me a bad person?" "Worse, you're smart. When you're smart you realise nothing matters and when that happens you can take the universe for a ride and I've never met a universe that was into it." Even though he admits that fate eventually gains the upper hand, anyone of us would jump at the chance to get the slightest taste of a victory of such magnitude. The biggest difference between Rick and other idolised ass holes is that he is a cosmic nihilist and therefore, his fans are raging against not just a broken society, but their own existence. Rick is closer to the Greek myths in that he chooses to fight an unwinnable battle against fate because he knows his only other option is suicide caused by existential dread, the magnitude of which would drive most people insane. This makes Rick worship far more potent and self destructive. I am a massive fan of Rick, but I don't surcome to the super self destructive tendencies of Rick and his other fans because I'm an existential nihilist. The only difference between us is that a cosmic nihilist will dive head first into the abyss and an existential nihilist will sit at the edge of the abyss and crack open a cold one with the lads.

[@therecombinant6215]

Also can apply to Wolverine and Bat Man.

[@SonovaBish]

Up to the point when I quit reading comics, Wolverine was making progress on his flaws. Baby steps are still progress.

[@littlen8279]

Batman hardly counts because there is really no "win" scenario for him. What does Batman want? To save the city he sees as his home. How does he do it? Wears a costume and beats the shit out of bad people at night. What happens in the process? Nutjobs with dangerous abilities increase at an exponential rate, many are inspired by or targets him, resulting in multiple attacks on the city and innocent people just to get back at him. Where does that bring him at the end? The shithole of a city eventually goes back the way it used to be after he dies/retires. (Dark Knight Returns) His friends and family leaving him to move on with their lives, leaving him alone. (Batman Beyond) If the end justifies the means then Walt (his ego satisfied and family secured), Rick (accept the meaninglessness of life) and Punisher (satisfy his hunger for violence and in some timelines, eventually dies like a soldier) wins because they get what they want. This is not the case for Batman. As for Wolverine, he finds the peace he wants in some stories.

[@sharilshahed6106]

@@littlen8279 Seeing his city secure through the continuation of the Batman legacy counts, I think. Gotham is everything you described, and it's just an endless recursion of justice versus corruption and crime battle (it's mostly everywhere, but worst in Gotham) even before Batman was there. Through the use of Batman he can make sure the crimes stay minimal and people can at least breath some fresh air without the city getting overrun by villains, crime lords controlling the city or a league of assassins burning it to the ground as they view Gotham as irredeemable. It will make sense to use the ongoing successors of Batman legacy such as his Robins, notably Dick, his own children such as Damian, Helena, or others like Terry. Heck he even had his own machine that clones himself, so that he can live on to fight crime throughout Gotham for ages. Again, in the sense of personal gain, there is little for him, and the fight is endless. But he can still see to it that Gotham doesn't get destroyed by enemies outside or within itself.

[@bclr6843]

The difference in all these characters is though is punishers origin. His family. Frank castle feels like he died with his family lost