WHY MARS WAS ABANDONED BY THE IMPERIUM!

[@ravenniwolvarious8801]

I can legitimately believe Dorn would have done it and still been surprised when the Mechanicus declared outright war on Terra. Man was subtle as a brick.

[@real_Greys0n]

Dorn was the man who had a plan for everything. Ask Alpharius how much he surprised Dorn over Pluto.

[@corperk]

Why would the Mechanicus declare war on Terra? Solaria and the Adepts on Terra are complete fanatics of the Emperor. Every other forgeworld hates Mars with a passion. Eg, Voss, Voss Prime, and Ryza.

[@johanstinson]

Thick as a brick, yet he out maneuvered the Alpha Legion and took Alpharius head in the skies above Pluto. Looks like you fell for it, just like Alpha Boy

[@silent_stalker3687]

@@corperksimple. Better the devil you know. Imagine if Cawl had to deal with a fabricator general change every 20-30 years. All the loop holes would be patched and some added for other stuff they prefer, and ‘well this happened 10 years before i took power so… off with yer head.’ High lords and inquisition are not ideal given how often they fuck up and the spectacular ways they do so and many ways they have found to do so, and the sheer duct tape used for the construction of the torture device around them. Its a human centipede of iron maidens. Cain may follow old ways and restrict stuff, but those restrictions can be skirted as Cawl will know.

[@donpackundo6953]

"He who defends everything defends nothing" The Imperium could retake mars later, but if the Terra falls, everything will fall along with it.

[@wchamp170]

With all due respect, Dorn was correct. He did not have the resources to literally fight two world wars. Without Terra. Nothing else would matter

[@nickkymanick7011]

I don’t know about that because the war didn’t make it to Terra for over 5 years! Also he wasted the emperors flag ship and the phalanx by not using them during the solar war……his biggest blunder in my opinion of the whole siege

[@cookiemathew1656]

⁠​⁠@@nickkymanick7011he was literally on the phalanx to take it into battle when the word bearers broke the laws Rogal holds so dear and translated into real space where they shouldn’t have been able too. Also wasting veterans on a conflict which would have little gain, fighting on Mars destroys the hole reason it exists. Not using the emperors flag ship was dumb though.

[@nickkymanick7011]

The solar war was going on for days before Horus showed up where he was not supposed to be able to. He got shook when he had to face samus and ran to his walls.

[@cookiemathew1656]

@@nickkymanick7011 and without that trick from Horus the traitors wouldn’t have even gotten to terra in time before Gilliman showed up. The phalanx was a reserve because that’s all it needed to be, Dorn knew he was missing something so he played it safe. He just misjudge how much he was missing.

[@corperk]

In Narrative? He could have taken mars with ease but he was too much of a cheapstake. Remember, In the Beast Arises, a single chapter was more than able to overwhelm the entirety of mars's capital's defenses.

[@mersenniusprime]

As usual, Dorn is absolutely right, but really should have invested in some night classes on speaking and diplomacy. The security of the Segmentum Solar is obviously more important than the security of Mars. If Horus arrived in system, it would not have mattered who won the Martian war, as Horus would immediately take the planet back. All available resources had to be put to maintaining strategic distance from the traitor fleet - Mars did not pose an immediate threat and could wait. Between Terra and Mars, Terra is obviously more important. The death of the Emperor was the death of all hope for humanity, and the loss of the Throneworld was an incalculable boon for Horus, given all the unspeakable terrors housed in the vaults. Mars, by contrast, was immeasurably less important. In an all-out war for mere survival, the rational decision would have been to abandon and even consider the exterminatus of Mars. Dorn's faults were only in an exceptionally poor delivery and in failing to understand that Mars was absolutely insane and believed themselves the equal of Terra. Without Mars, humanity would have lost a great deal of its technology and industrial capacity. Without Terra, there is literally nothing stopping the entire Segmentum from falling into the warp and getting eaten by daemons forever. The same can be said of the War of the Beast. Mars cannot stand on its own because the Emperor is the only thing holding Chaos at bay. There is no reciprocity here; Terra is more important. Dorn understood that, but obviously did not realize that Mars did not.

[@corperk]

The Dragon does protect Mars from the warp, which allowed them to expand during old night. But in terms of the Imperium, a vassal world like Mars is entirely expendable for the live of Terra. Mars, Inwit, Necromunda, Ultramar, all of them expendable to save Terra.

[@kimmogensen4888]

But he did finally send his angel brother sanguineous, he probably should have done it earlier because you right he did not have a diplomatic bone in his body 😂

[@wanderhillen2435]

Have to say that it is kinda out of character that the Marsy bois can't follow such a logical and concise argument. Cold hard logic is all they care about and Dorn knows it. This whole scene was only in the book to create extra drama when the personality of the characters involved doesn't support it.

[@leovalenzuela8368]

Then he is a moron. If he truly believed Terra was more important then he would have said done whatever was necessary to placate Mars. They are not a charity case, they are the armoury of Terra. By treating them like a charity case, he endangered Terra, like a buffoon.

[@Yeet42069]

It doesn't matter whether Dorn is correct or not. The reality is, mechanicus are not AI and not capable of accepting such emotionless actions for the good of the better picture. If Dorn did destroy the planet not only would nearly every forgewold turn traitor, it would also completely ruin the imperium after winning the war against horus and leave it even more open to chaos in the milleniums after. What Dorn proposed was a lesser form of destruction of the imperium for the sake of guaranteeing victory. But Malcador saw that this is not in vision of the emperor so he stepped in. True victory was safekeeping both worlds, any other form of victory would benefit chaos one way or the other, losing them the battle but winning them the war.

[@ZeroBl_]

Dorn: *Exterminatus on Mars* Every f*cking Magos in the universe: "So you have choosen death" *Every mechanicus planet joins the traitors* Just... WTF Dorn?

[@zeran147]

When you consider most of the mechanicus rebelled, and the at the time head was the one who led it, it could be argued, that the mechanicus betrayed the imperium and the treaty they signed. Those who remained "loyal", where in fact traitors to the mechanicus but loyal to the imperium and thus attempting to paint them selves as the mechanicus while it is in open war against the imperium is not a very logical one.

[@Ronin-42]

You know there's a conversation during Mass Effect 3 between Shepard and Garrus that always stuck with me where they're talking about the concept of war and annihilation on a scale that large being boiled down to raw math. Do you commit to sacrifice a million lives here so that a million and a half lives over there might live, how do you make the hard moral choices when faced with such scale. Does giving in to sheer logic at that point absolve you of the moral weight of consigning a planet to death. Moments like these with Dorn and Mars are needed in 40k more often to ground the reality of these sorts of dilemmas. We see acts like exterminatus used too frivolously in the story.

[@nathangillispie51]

If Dorn tried to hold Mars, he would have lost Terra. In the end, nothing mattered but holding Terra. You will get Mars back later, as happened.

[@Matihood1]

Imagine if Terra was instead in a state of civil war and the Fabricator-General suggested exterminatus on the craddle of humanity, arguing that it would've been much more resource-efficient than reclaiming the planet.

[@bodricthered]

And then someone points out that would destroy mars by sucking it into hell.... One of these planets was infinitely valuable to humanity, one of them wasn't.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

Tangentially related, but I believe the Emperor should have begun his rise to power by infiltrating then rising to the top of the Mechanicum.

[@xenoscry]

That would've been a wild alt-history

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@@xenoscry IKR

[@RedneckBushidoCode]

I agree. That would make some interesting fan-fiction.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@@RedneckBushidoCode The Omnissioanic Crusade.

[@Subject_Keter]

What big E should of done is exploit Choas biggest weakest. They need their cultist to "keep them stable" so if he would of made and forced a culture of mutating say Khrone into a weak DnD plsyer. Imperium combined might would start to break his hold over ideas and mutate Khrone into a nonthreat. If the choas gods can shove abit of them and taint the stream... why not the opposite? They dont got that many people too route them in place.

[@olorin3815]

Well i mean i don't think he said Mars was worthless or anything, he basically said entire Mars got way too much firepower and with all their machines to be taken over quickly and casualties would be too high

[@chloe59k]

Same way you destroy any tech or weaponry left behind on the battlefield.

[@ghostbearr1]

The Mechanicum book clearly established that defending or trying to any action on Mars with Horus being able to strike the system to be suicidal. In one, the 3 battles of still functioning forges had 60 titans closing in on 200 space marines some Mechanicum forces.

[@Kishinzz]

Let's be honest here, most of it comes down to GW writers being awful at understanding human relations and/or warfare. Holing up on your capital isn't a strategy, it's putting yourself on a timer and giving the enemy free reign on everything else. As for Mars itself, it should've been a puppet state of Terra long ago, let alone being capable of betraying it.

[@Subject_Keter]

For me, ot always feels like there no critial thought in all the lore books. Like if they had the means to blowup planets.. shouldnt they have rigged the outer walls to blow when the traitors claimed them? Also if Big E had a vortex grenade, easy dubs. Well not really but still.

[@Voron_Aggrav]

The Goal of Horus was to Take the Throne, and end the Emperor, which would make Terra the only place of true importance for both sides, that said Indeed it would be vital for both sides to take as much as they can so they can support their war effort which would inevitably decide the victor

[@coolchrisable]

true but terra was vastly more important than mars was at the time. you have 90% of the important shit on earth, the shit in the dark cells, the fucking emporer of mankind all on terra and the defense of it was paramount loose terra you loose the war anyway so mars was 2nd you can take mars back you cant take terra back. and as much as we wanna say it, but horus was also on a timer he didnt have time for a prolong seige and he was fightting the most defensive primarch there was. in short dorn was right to put the resources on terra than on mars, he was giving himself as much time as he possiable could in defending terra. dorn holding himself up on terra was the smart move from any other stand point as the fall of terra would have doomed everything he did not have the resources to fight a 2 world war. but i do agree mars should have been a puppet state long ago

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

@@coolchrisable its not having a war at your capital means you’re losing or in the brink of it

[@coolchrisable]

@@augustuslunasol10thapostle i mean the loyalist wernt loosing persay its jsut the tratiors made a B line for terra to try to end the war as fast as possiable horesy had to stall the dark angles, he crippled the salamanders, iron hands, and raven gaurd. got the space wolves and thousand sons to fight each other ( in all honesty he wanted the thousand sons weakened so they couldnt fight back. them kinda joining was a bonus for him but he didnt get to enjoy it though). got the ultramaines, blood angels and dark angles ( i think it was) to think the imperium fell and when they found out it didnt they also made a B line for terra. horus plan was a good one strike while the iron was hot.

[@John-jc3ty]

it didnt need to be a threat. if rogal exterminated mars, the mechanicum in terra would have known it and maybe some would have changed their minds. no need for the fab general to tell them anything. rogal should have seen this not as a threat but as a consequence.

[@corperk]

Man, going by what GW has written, Kane's threat was entirely empty and Rogal is the dumbest primarch alive. If anything, most likely with mars gone some forgeworlds will shift back, because in the AT expansions is super clear every Forgeworld Hates Mars and would not lift a finger to save it.

[@Parvus_Symmachus]

@@corperk Dumbest Primarch is stil Leman Russ nobody is more unfitt as a Leader as he is. Leman Russ is so incompetent that he is unfit to guard a bag of Potatos. And yeah Mars in the Hands of the Traitors would be a big threat, a world they siege from and get all the Materials without the ressources to defend 2 worlds. Is it longterm a good plan, no... but at this point in time... Mars was one of the biggest threats to Terra.

[@CidVeldoril]

@@corperk Ehhhh no. The other forgeworlds hate the guys in charge of Mars but revere the place itself. Kinda like how everyone hates the high lords but also everyone loves Terra.

[@cookiemathew1656]

Rogal displaying why he was never and will never be a good war master, while being the best choice for the protector of terra. He has his duty and can see the big picture while not being a political creature (humanity was meant to be ruled and governed by humans).

[@samhobbs9116]

Yea coz humans done such a good job of that so far. Such a bad take from emps.

[@cookiemathew1656]

@@samhobbs9116 They've only really sucked at ruling since Long night. The golden age of tech seems to have been going well until the warp and men of iron kicked the shit outa humanity and that generational trauma hasn't gone well since. + the elder have shown what happens when beings of great power rule for too long.

[@release_the_Diddy_list]

Dorn didn’t understand that he was talking to a civilian that war forced to step up. Browbeating the mecha-man was the dumbest thing he could have done. And yes, that memory does mean Mars will abandon Terra with no second thoughts.

[@johanstinson]

No. The Mechanicum is logical. They demanded independence in the treaty, with independence comes personal responsibility.

[@release_the_Diddy_list]

@@johanstinson Dorn wasn’t talking to the mechanicum. He was talking to a confused civilian like he were a campaign veteran

[@johnlocke9437]

Mars insists on an independency caveat in the treaty then gets butthurt when they're told to act independently with a guerilla war of attrition against the traitors. Dorn suggested the correct tactical decision of annihilating Mars to deprive the enemy supply chain. Ideal? No. Necessary? Could be!

[@slitth]

You have to respect an ally force, if you want them to remain an ally. Choosing to make a stand on Terra, when the webway portal was compromised is and was just as bad a choice as blockading Mars. But there is no talk of abandoning Terra for a more strategic sound planet.

[@DylanJo123]

​@@slitth of course there wasnt because there isnt a planet with more importance than Terra. If Terra falls, the Imperium falls.

[@muhammadedwards8425]

​@@DylanJo123That is only because the emperor in his grimderpiness made it that way. Terra did not need to be the centre of the Imperium, or rather the Imperium did not need a single planet with no alternatives to be it's centre

[@muhammadedwards8425]

This is a silly reply since Mars could say that about Terra as well. Why should Mars provide resources to an Imperium in civil war? Why does Mars just wait for the traitors to destroy the defenses then drop cyclonic torpedoes, virus bombs and Luna itself on Terra as soon as the emperor finishes his fight with Horus and the Imperial reinforcement land? Saves them the trouble of an incompetent ally

[@DylanJo123]

@@muhammadedwards8425 there is only one emperor and hes the only man at the time that can handle being on the golden throne for a long period of time. Id argue thats the reason Terra is so important, its the only planet with the resources and defenses to be the home of the golden throne.

[@danielmcelroy8533]

In Mechanicum, the Martian schism never seemed to be an equal struggle that the traitors got the upper hand in. I got the impression there were far far more on the side of Kelbor Hal. Getting into a meat grinder before Horus got to the Sol system did not make any tactical sense. It's also never stated one way or another if the Emperor let Rogal in on the gist of what was in the Vaults of Moravec. Which big E had to know Kelbor and friends were going to go crack open as soon as possible. That seems like it would have been a huge problem to also have to deal with.

[@KarolusTemplareV]

As I understood it, the Mechanicum simply followed their Fabricator General, as the majority of Mars was unaware of the real shit happening until scrap code and demon-virus started to go rampant.

[@RedneckBushidoCode]

One cannot exist without the other. Though they may seem incapable of reconciling, they always do. Exterminatus of the red planet would mean that Dorn and The Imperium had to fight their battles without Martian aid, without the ships and the technology of the Mechanicum and that seems almost inconceivable. I personally can't imagine a universe where the two aren't the closest allies, essentially one and the same: The Imperium is The Mechanicum (or later Mechanicus) and vice versa. These two entities are like peas and carrots.

[@d.staten1958]

Dorn destroys Mars. Frees humanity from the machine cult. Inspires man back to the scientific methods once more.

[@averybaumann]

Terra falls and the warp gates open and mars falls into the warp with it. Mars can be reclaimed if terra survives.

[@larskjar]

No terra, no astronomicon, no warp travel, no reinforcement, no future.

[@chloe59k]

2nd most important planet is the key to the answer and Terra is number 1 so dorn was making the correct call

[@CidVeldoril]

Yesn't. Leaving Mars for later is a good call. Arguing for exterminatus is madness and would drive those tech priests still loyal to the traitors if done. Then the loyalists would instantly lose all forge worlds and all supplies. Nice.

[@BrokenRanch357]

Perturabo would have taken Mars back and held Terra.

[@benmagiera6973]

Military perspective it makes complete sense. From an emotional perspective as hard as it is swallow it also makes sense. We’re not talking about eradication of loyal subjects on a slightly tainted world. It was extermination of a world completely given over to chaos. The world would remain, loyal mechanic I’m could rebuild.

[@AxolotlInMC]

They were sovereign within the Imperium until they got the status of an Adeptus. Now they are officially subservient to Terra, although still very prominent and with much practical power.

[@michaelnorman4476]

I don’t think that it’s inevitable that it will happen. If we look at it in the grand scale. It’s only happened a couple of times in 10,000 years. That’s actually really infrequently. Tank you for another great episode. I always love listening to your perspective and knowledge.

[@RobouteGuilliman-M41]

The Fabricator General should've declared the treaty stood in violation, and gone ahead with teleporting Mars away. I'd recall all forces and order all Mechanicum forces to expel all Imperium forces from all forge worlds. I would rally all forces to Mars' new location - including Knights - and establish a new empire. If the Emperor's lap dog threatened Exterminatus, the Earth would fall under the same threat.

[@zawwin1846]

Let’s be honest, the Imperium always taken Mars for granted as an ally. They look down on the very people making their armors, ships, etc.

[@drayx11]

It's easier to make the armor than bleed in it

[@nikolafeschiev3399]

@@drayx11 its not. the real world is proof of that. plenty of child soldiers and terrorist states, not many weapon manufactories

[@Subject_Keter]

Choas pulled ou5 a sharpie and drew themselves at the Eternity Gate and Big E barely won with all the army they had. No way protecting mars was the right play. Also should be luckly they didnt strap some vortex warheads to Mars.

[@CidVeldoril]

Dorn could not have done so. Had he destroyed Mars, then he'd have lost the loyalist side of the Mechanicum to the traitors, thereby losing all supplies and repair facilities, while Horus would've gotten a nice boost.

[@Yandarval]

Here, this shows that Dorn is a strategist, not not a Grand Strategist. Examples from WWII. General Patton or Field Marshal Montgomery. Both are commanding the fighting troops with their own strategies on how to take X (Strategist). General Eisenhower Has to take into account troops numbers, logistics, politics, morale, manufacturing capacity and more (Grand Strategist). Dorn is thinking about the bloody and shooty bits of War. Dorn in essense, is thinking like a one or two star General field commander, not the five star CO of a nations Armed Forces. True Grand Strategy is at the leader of a country level. As it takes in a lot of civillian stuff as well. Reserved occupations, age ranges for recruitment, loans to pay for stuff and the like. Dorn is Patton. He has not thought of Plan Q, only Plans A and B. The threat from the Fab Gen is an INSTANT war loser. The loss of some Astartes, even if wiped out,is a small price to pay for keeping the Fab Gen on side. The withdrawl of support, never mind active resistence, would be magnitudes worse than catastrophic. Who builds the imperiums ships...Ad Mech Who builds the weapons and armour for the Astates and Imp Army...Ad Mech Who maintains and runs the engineering department on every ship in the Imperium...Ad Mech. Who builds, pilots and maintains Titan's...Ad Mech. WIthout the Ad Mech, the Imperium does not exist. Dorn should have still fought for Mars, even knowing he cannot retake it and will lose troops and material. Just enough to keep the Ad Mech onside. No point throwing away more than needed to keep the cog polishers working for the Imperium. Now, in the narrow view, Dorn is militarily correct. Horde your troops and material for fight you know is coming. In the wider scope of a Galaxy spanning war, he is wrong.

[@johanstinson]

Simply impossible Maybe if another Legion or 3 had shown up before the end of The Siege, this could've been possible. As it was, every Fist, BA and White Scar was needed on Terra to hold out until help arrived. Any reduction in these forces would've meant the loss of Terra and then the loss of Mars

[@TheScubapez376]

I think the actions of the Mechanicum during the war in the webway, doomed not only Mars but the Imperium. If they didn’t abandon the Imperium and tried to win or fix the webway, then the galaxy may just be a different place for the next 10,000 years.

[@ekscalybur]

The Golden Frone!

[@DarkestVampire92]

Anyone who scoffs at Robute being the de-facto Emperor of Mankind at the moment should think about his brother literally about to nuke a planet just because he doesnt wanna bother with defending it. Without Mars, Mankind wouldnt have made it to M32, let alone M41.

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

Mechanicum. The powehouse of the cell.

[@zacharymassey6487]

i never felt that dorn was saying it wasnt worth the resources to fight for mars, i felt that he was saying that war was lost at most i mightve gotten a few days or weeks tops for a couple forges but they had the planet and 100 forges to our 3, the cost wouldve far exceeded the gain. at least that was my take when reading it,

[@MRsolidcolor]

my question is how the malcador alive. because he was on the thrown and dead at the end of the "end and the death" so how is he walking around mars after??? just another retcon i guess that's not been fixed..

[@rixxo]

Hey Rho you got a list with the 40k books you rated?

[@Irishman1861]

With who it was with it was a good ploy if it was with the lion I will quote “loyalty is its own reward “and let the what ifs go from there especially with the lion of the heresy

[@brotherjorge3]

The Mechanicus would later get revenge by killing the surviving Imperial Fists

[@DrihunGaming]

can you show images of the person that you are quoting at the time? Because it is hard to follow if you are not aware who is who as you dont do any "X said, y said" and just read the dialog from everyone in one sentence.

[@tomrude5865]

Dorn was naive and foolish. On a different note though, what if extermenatus woke up the dragon of Mars?

[@V_XVX]

i get the mechanicus point of view , but the war was coming for terra, and if terra falls then its back to the stone age anyway

[@aldrinmilespartosa1578]

Mars wasnt abandon because it implies that theres a choice. Earth got gang up.

[@p_noizesacha]

What there were loyal factions remaining loyal, I thought the loyal factions turned traitor this is making no sense😂

[@worldsbuffestloremaster]

Eh dorns right though

[@kimmogensen4888]

Both are representatives of different interests who both have different and common interests, don’t see any problem with the conversation between them and they had a good referee to avoid things going totally wrong, but sanguineous should have been faster to get the job of diplomatic envoy in place of Dorn as soon as the entered the solar system, Dorn is as good a diplomat as Angron 🤯😡🤬👊🏻🤕

[@I_am-lost.]

Dorn was right

[@arktheball]

Wait... are you suggesting that Dorn was wrong for considering annihilating a monstrously powerful industrial and military resource to the enemy, that had already thrown its hat in with the enemy, and repelled efforts to take it back, before the bulk of the enemy could arrive and wield it? Like... for real? "What about mars?" Asks the new fabricator general. "What about mars?" Replied Dorn. "What about the rest of the Imperium if the Throne system is lost?! Mars damned itself, twice over... if we deem it necessary to destroy it, I suggest you busy yourself with rebuilding the Mechanicus, with the help of the Imperium instead of damning us all here and now for nostalgia...."

[@maciejsawicki8095]

Not surprised at all about Rogal's statement, he was the most autistic one from them all

[@xxnoxx-xp5bl]

Sound tactical decision. Mars was basically lost and if Terra fell, so would the very Imperium.

[@AdrianMartinez-ho6db]

The mechanicus pisses me off sometimes I swear 😂

[@erichoughton4128]

i feel it bc was poorly written

[@Overonator]

Why didn't Dorn exterminatus Mars?

[@piercebrosnan9528]

Look up Israel's Samson Option and you'll understand why.

[@benitobuenavides7690]

Jesus is Coming

[@xenoscry]

Eww why are you watching?

[@RigoBonner-u2u]

The Lord is not a serpent seed

[@RigoBonner-u2u]

Jesus is gonna fucking kill us dude

[@benitobuenavides7690]

@@RigoBonner-u2u He loves you come to Him now while theres yet time. Jesus is like the real life sanguinius but billion times better wiser and stronger. Also loving more.

[@RigoBonner-u2u]

He's serpent that has done everything in his power to ruin me

[@MichaelOlmeda-ch2uf]

Yeah dorn spazzed lol those who can't see it . Go back to reading comprehension in literature. Dorn spazzed with how he handled the conversation. He did

[@Dontlicktheballoons]

This is dumbest take ive heard in ages