#10MinuteTalk

[@alexs1972]

This is a trick the military has been using for a little while that Todd Hodnett and Brian Litz refined into something called Speed Drop. You can calculate your "speed drop" based on your bullet data and dial UP your turret so that between say, 200 and 650 yards, whatever your yardages distance, that's your drop in mils. For example if you see a target at 350 yards, you would HOLD 3.5 MIL. If your target was 510 yards, you would HOLD 5.1 MIL etc.

[@BlackDogII]

💡 ijj

[@knightmare1015]

I forgot about this but yeah. Take your distance and add a decimal point to the very end of it and simply move the decimal point to the left 2 spaces and that will give you the drop in mils and how much you would need to dial up. I've got a really good one for wind calculations using a basic easy to make protractor anemometer and mirage. All you need is a transparent protractor, a 6 inch long piece of clear fishing line and a small ping pong/table tennis ball. Tie the fishing line in the bottom hole and you can either tape or glue the other end to the ball. Hold the protractor upside down to where the fishing line is even with the 90 degree mark and you have yourself a poor man's anemometer. I do the same with mirage at the target area with my scope. It works extremely well. Protractor Windspeeds: 90 degrees 0 MPH 80 degrees 8 MPH 70 degrees 12 MPH 60 Degrees 15 MPH 50 Degrees 18 MPH 40 Degrees 21 MPH 30 Degrees 26 MPH 20 Degrees 33 MPH

[@thomaswall4285]

Thanks, I'll digest this some. I don't know anything at this point except kentucky windage out to my eyesite limit. Example I do not know "dial up to between" If you get the time and you don't mind answering let me know. Thanks,T

[@jacob9436]

@@knightmare1015ill have to try this out!

[@russellcrawford9503]

​@thomaswall4285 the idea is that you use a ballistics calculator or data on previous engagements to figure our your trajectory to start. From there, you just adjust your zero up until your drop in MILs conveniently matches your range in yards if move the decimal over a couple of spaces. You no longer have a 100 yard zero or what have you. But you have adjusted your zero such that you don't have to calculate your drop within a given range. You just take the yardage, move your decimal to the left two places, and that is your hold over. I hope this helps.

[@insane_troll]

This works out when the speed is about 2200 fps, which is pretty typical for 6.5 out at a couple of hundred yards. The distance is d=vt and the drop is gt^2/2 = gd^2/(2v^2), where g is gravity. The angle in radians is then gd/(2v^2), so the drop in radians is proportional to distance. A speed v of about 2200 fps gives a drop of 1/1000 radians for each 100 yards.

[@rkba4923]

There's 3.4 MOA per MIL. So, yes you can convert and use MOA. Just multiply the range - 2 result by 3.4 MOA, e.g. Range = 800 ~ 8-2 = 6 x 3.4 = 20.4 MOA.

[@TheHeathbob]

Thanks

[@EvWine]

Surprising how well this actually works, cause if I used that trick with my rifle I would only be off by 2.6 MOA at 800 so ~8.5" low at 800. That's not bad.

[@ChewbowWow]

What fucking language is this

[@rkba4923]

@@EvWine I personally would add a .25 MOA for every 500 yards, or portion thereof, of range to target. by the way, 2.6 MOA at 800 yards is over 16 inches.

[@tannercook4322]

I’m at 21.6 for 800 yards

[@lukewalker9111]

Being in Australia and measuring in Metres not yards, this works at a minus 2 from 200-700metres with a 0.4mil difference at 700m. Nice little quick formula.

[@kevinkane9419]

Nice, how many metres for your zero?

[@lukewalker9111]

@@kevinkane9419 100 meter zero for majority of my rifles mate.

[@joel9526]

Over 700m are you saying it’s -2 +0.4mil? So for 800 meters it would be 6.04mil is this correct. Also have you tried this formula with any other rounds?

[@2017Toy]

I know you may have already had a 7 mm 08 discussion but if not I would like to hear one I love this awesome caliber

[@VortexNation]

Check it out here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f3LOfmmMg65sq7s

[@caseroj6020]

I got a 6.5 Creedmoor that I was about to take to the range just before the Thanksgiving holiday. Most of my scopes use moa adjustments but I do have one Nikko-Stirling with a FFP reticle in mils. I think I will put that on my 2016 Bergara Approach in 6.5 Creedmoor and try this "life hack" at the range. Thanks for publishing the video guys. 😄

[@brett5990]

Awesome rifle and cartridge, scope will get you started however it gets super confusing with both moa and mils. should just pick one or the other. both are good, I use moa SFP hunting and mils FFP for target.

[@joetitone4634]

Furthermore, if you want to set your scope up for a good 'speed drop', you can back it off 2 mils at zero and you will be on without any subtracting. ie 3mils = 300yrd etc all the way to about 700-800 yards. With a good reticle you wouldn't even have to dial. just hold over 5mils for 500yrds

[@roostersofer5759]

Thanks guys. I have a Arken 6x25 optics in Mils. My problem is I don't know what is a mil. Those stadia lines are confusing to me. They are not numbered. I'm talking about the lines looking through the scope. Then there are the ones on the knobs of the scope. I'm new at this scope thing.

[@DanielBoone337]

Mark- Are we idiots??? Also Mark- Don't answer that... LOL This is a pretty cool hack that I'm gonna remember!!! Great video as always keepem coming guys...

[@TheCaptmikem]

So I'm sitting at the Carlsbad Range in NM far from TX, and I realize I have a rifle, ammo, and no data.. Then I remember this podcast.. 440 yds, hold 2 mils .. Ping! 550, hold 3.. ping! Working 140 RDF in a 260 Rem.. Thanx!

[@ctech01]

Thanks guys. I just mounted my new Vortex Viper PTS gen 2 MRAD on my 6.5CM. I will definitely be giving this a try. Thank You. This could be the most valuable info I have heard to day.

[@VortexNation]

Heck yeah - let us know how it works with your setup!

[@ctech01]

@@VortexNation After testing out to 600yds. I find this spot on. Thank You.

[@VortexNation]

@@ctech01 That is awesome!

[@peterg7009]

Just mounted the same scope on a Tikka in 6.5CM. Hoping for great results too!

[@spaceman152E]

Is there a suggested grain weight or whatnot this works best at?

[@SLO4SpeedBump]

.308 Win. has worked for me for 50 years. I do enjoy the higher muzzle velocity of the newer ammo for the .308. and the introduction of the 170+ grn ammo is good. Thanks for the video it was informative. Have a good day.

[@VortexNation]

Right on - the trusty .308 is tough to beat. Thanks for tuning in! :)

[@monsterk7603]

Just ordered my first 6.5. This should help bunches!!! Witchery!

[@RealHankShill]

Whats the trick for finding ammo?

[@cavscout62]

Stocking up on all reloading supplies over the last 30 years.

[@450ktm520]

Minus two

[@brett5990]

Darn close to my DOPE...I can't believe I didn't notice that either. Works on meters for me not yards. Its good to 600 then it starts to grow. Super easy to remember that method, so much simpler than a range constant method 😉 👍

[@Notsogeekgeek]

@Vortex Nation. What was the cartridge/load being used and what range was the rifle 0'd at?

[@davejones67]

With what load?

[@robertmalone4972]

I have a Howa 1500 in 6.5 Creedmoor. It came with a Nikko Sterling. It wasn't a great scope, but i could hit targets. I put a Vortex diamond back tactical 6-24x50 mrad on it. It made it a way better rifle. I am definitely going to use this information. Thank you for the insight

[@ryoung6725]

The last two rifles I purchased, I also got Leupold CDS scopes. I swear by them out to 600 yards, not that I would ever take a shot at that distance. But so far, all I have to do is range my target and immediately adjust my elevation without any app or hold over to worry about. And, it's been dead on. Now, for windage, that's a different story.

[@bartowpd342]

What’s a good scope to put on a 6.5cm bolt gun

[@CharizardFan_og]

Didn't know that trick also would love to hear about the 10.3x68

[@NSWvet83]

What's the build you have on the table (barrel etc)?

[@dexterlowery5738]

Did that rifle come with the chrome barrel or could you tell me where to get it?

[@samuelberryhill6956]

Thanks for video yall.i would like to ask can yall do a review on 6.5x47 lapua?

[@VortexNation]

Noted - thanks for the suggestion!

[@IE_Tiger]

Do you have a build video for that rifle? Looks great!

[@justinkessler9532]

Does this apply to 120 grains also?

[@markr5132]

One more consideration for load development. arriving at not only the nod of most accuracy but one that give you the velocity for the grain bullets you shot for simple speed drop.

[@musheghhayrapetyan8982]

Is there this kind of lifehack for m193 5.56 ?

[@CHenry1951]

Pretty good info ........simple & fast !!

[@johnfordham8133]

Two up great guest and video !

[@stevecrader3479]

Holy crap I can't wait to get to the range and pull a "Carnac the magnificent" with my 6.5 CM!!!

[@minutesandmils3466]

Love it! Thank you!

[@Nello353]

What type of scope do you need to do this?

[@paulhoppe4596]

So where do you start from? Is this starting with a 200 yd zero?

[@intolead]

from ireland really great stuff lads

[@SteveChishamSr]

There are two magic numbers to determine energy by using feet per second. 671 fps: the grain weight of the projectile at 671 fps would be the fpe. So 55 grains at 671 fps would be 55 fpe. 950 fps: The same applies but it's twice the grain weight would equal the fpe. So 55 grains at 950 fps would equal 110 fpe.

[@justinryan1488]

I met Nick at a local range event Dude is cool AF

[@Kaotix_music]

i see something about 6.5 CM and i instantly click (yes im one of those 6.5 cultists XD)

[@davesteffenhagen7627]

Ok I can’t wait to try this!

[@wonderingtimesllc7203]

I am an info hound. This is fantastic.

[@OBSZIDIAN548]

Can we convert this to MOA and have a similar simplicity approach

[@stacybrown3714]

I can't believe I didn't see this just looking at my dope card! Talk about not seeing the tree for the forest. Pretty cool.

[@dariolopez7227]

What’s the best scope for the 6.5 creedmoor

[@Lethal_Venom]

There is no best scope for a 6.5CM. It's all subjective on what you're doing with the rifle. You match the scope for what you're doing with the rifle not what ammo you are shooting out of it.

[@carlofthemountain1598]

shit... that works for both my 6.5 and 300WM out to a 1000m, thank you

[@truesightgrabber]

The problem is that there so few scopes with ballistics reticles and ballistics turrets. The ancients Russian scopes like PU 3.5x22 and PSO-1 are made especially for designated weapons: mosin nagant and SVD accordingly, for specific ammo 7.62x54 and for specific weigh 9.6 gr (148 grains). And once they adjusted properly on the distance of 100 m you don't care after about ANY calculations, you just turn the turrets to needed distance from 100 m to 1300 m and shot. Simplicity is the key to success.

[@redtailchaser5882]

What bullet were you shooting in that 6.5?

[@jetdr]

what was the rifle 0'd at?

[@kennyfishell8015]

Can I get a break down of your rifle build

[@kirkmartin2223]

This is called "speed drops". You can do it with any cartridge and a kestrel. However I find using the MBPR "maximum point blank range" method better for hunting.

[@Herezjush]

combining both as DMR is deadly as fuck, you are in between -1,6 to -2.0 as "speed drop" with most loadouts for "close range" you use mpbr (witch is like 1,0-1,7 mrad) so its around 300m mark and BDC (as a result for speed drop) for further targets

[@Herezjush]

I do it manually in spread sheet

[@Heathen_907]

I'm a newb to 6.5, or really anything beyond 100 yard paper. What length barrel should I be looking for to get the most out of this trick?

[@roperboy87]

24 to 26

[@VortexNation]

Not really. All rifles will be different, but with most common match loads, a 24" is very commonly in the right ballpark.

[@Heathen_907]

@@VortexNation Thanks =)

[@Bigfish1day]

@@VortexNation Sooo, Definitely not going to work with the old deer rifle with 22” barrel?

[@VortexNation]

@@Bigfish1day Ehhhhhh probably not exactly. haha

[@TMFShooting]

Excellent , Thanks Guys *****

[@taz90738]

How would it work with MOA? My scope it MOA not MIL

[@paulharveu526]

3.4 MOA per mil; so call it 7 MOA per 2 mil. Range minus 2x3.4 should be ball park MOA.

[@johnlicon2472]

@@paulharveu526 I have a MOA too and shooting at a 300 yard range on Sunday. What should I try?

[@VortexNation]

The "life hack" won't work out as cleanly with MOA as it is a different angular measurement. This specific trick is designed around using MILS. If you follow this hack you would simply need to divide the MIL number by .3 to get the MOA value.

[@taz90738]

Thank you Paul Harveu and Vortex for the help and information. I appreciate it

[@VortexNation]

@@taz90738 Thanks for being a part of Vortex Nation!🤜🤛

[@brenn330]

Profound knowledge

[@dennisgray7509]

Great and simple!

[@jonathanmitchell3733]

I'm off to the range. Gotto test this

[@cyberace1546]

I know this is off topic but can anyone tell me who makes that green stock in the video? I like how simple and clean it looks.

[@mdees88]

KRG Bravo

[@spysweeper]

Awesome! ...so it works on a 100 yd zero and about a 2700 velocity? You mentioned drag coefficient?? I wonder if you ever made a segment on Applied Ballistic's -Ballistic Coefficient vs Hornady's Drag Coefficient?? What's the take on it? The difference on how you true between Kestrels using 4DOF vs Applied Ballistics stuff?? That would probably be a good debate between Bryan Litz and Dave Emary!!! 🙌😁

[@dopeoplereally3972]

With a 250 yard zero (which I believe to be much more useful than 100), the trick still works, but you subtract 3 400: 1 mil 500: 2 mil 700: 4 mil You get the idea

[@dilo777]

What about a 200 yard zero?(my local range only goes to 200)

[@olddog401]

Why go with a 250 yard zero? I've never heard of anyone doing this. What is the logic?

[@dopeoplereally3972]

@@olddog401 almost everyone did 250 for decades. They may have described it as a "battle zero" or "3 inches high at 100" but the fact remains: the best zero in most cases will be just a little low at 300. Otherwise known as 250

[@okgentfarmer]

@@dopeoplereally3972 I use a 250 (battle zero) on my 6.5CM for Whitetail Deer. Over 90% my shots are 25 to 350 yards. A 250 zero is MPBR (maximum point bland range) at 300 yards with 125g Winchester Deer Season XP. This guarantees never being more than 3.2 inches high and never more than 3.7 inches low from the muzzle to 300 yards which is perfect for Whitetail...just point and shoot. - I am going to give that "subtract 3 mil" hack a try at the range for 400+ shots!

[@lukeelliott2183]

Great podcast guys but Please do 325wsm

[@Clark8435]

To convert from mils to MOA, multiply the mils by 3.5. To convert from MOA to mils, divide the MOA by 3.5

[@andyjonathan2486]

Do I need to wear my creedmoor shiny shirt for this hack to work?

[@giggergigger1]

Works well for 6.5 x 55 swede too, 129-140 grain

[@paulharveu526]

Never knew. Should be about same for 75-77gr 223.

[@ON_THE_PERF]

Yup

[@TheMentch171]

This is awesome 🤣 I saw this and pulled up my data on 147 ELD and it’s so close! Great hack to know.

[@thomaswall4285]

BAM !!!! Thanks guys :)

[@mikedrescher3891]

I think you should make sure you can slide a dollar bill all the way back to the recoil lug on that rifle. The barrel nut is probably touching the aluminum in that chassis.

[@jakedawgwhite88]

I wonder how many cartridges this works for. I shoot a 7-08 that has similar data to 6.5. Time to check!

[@truckert9729]

I wish there was enough 6.5 ammo out there to test this, you have my attention though.

[@truckert9729]

I'll add, kindve works with 5.56. Zero at one hundred, just dial up one mil per hundred out to 500 and it's close enough to walk it in. Ammo dependant its with in minute of man at least.

[@wooddust1234]

What about 6.5 PRC ?

[@letsgobrandon416]

Still don't have a 6.5 anything - do have an old 30-06 though.

[@sauerkrautjr]

Okay

[@BudgeG80]

I came back to hear, “I’m no math magician” ! 😂 😂😂

[@tylerford88]

I thought this just happened to work for my two 6.5's based on my handloads but yards/200=mils and gets me very close. Ones 18" and the other is 24" shooting 120 gr and 145 gr respectively.

[@mikebrewer4349]

Does this work with a 308 as well?

[@VortexNation]

Not exactly. Running a ballistic calculator to find your adjustments would be the best bet for your specific load.

[@phillip6919851]

No simple calculation on moa scopes?

[@dragonflyfab9703]

MoA is for golf.

[@Oldhogleg]

There is: With a 200 yd zero as before, but instead of range minus 2, it's range times 3 minus 7.

[@shanehayes6048]

Thanks guys!

[@mikeberger6664]

Wow, thanks 😎

[@VortexNation]

🤜🤛

[@Pompomgrenade]

Set 200 zero, hold mil-dots for 300, 400, 450 and 500 for Man-sized 🎯 without too much caliber deviation if velocity is 2600+fps and less than 2900...

[@intolead]

very good

[@DavidMcKeeSmith]

does this 'range minus 2mils' assume the rifle is zeroed at 100yds?

[@ArmenArmenjs]

Yes, zero @ 100Y.

[@VortexNation]

Yes, that is based on a 100 yard zero.

[@americasrifle7868]

He’s using a basic formula of speed drop. You need a 6.5 or 6 creed, speed and a decent bc and between roughly 200-700 yards it works. You can use a kestrel under accuracy first and you can figure out your exact offers and not just minus 2 mills. Good work fellas. Todd hodnett’s boy figured this out with a kestrel a while back. Just look at what speed drop is

[@iscariot1164]

1 mil at 100 yards is 3.6”, 1 mil at 1k is 36”. 1 moa at 100 yards is 1” , 1moa at 1k is 10”

[@infantilepillock1687]

Good Info. Now do the mighty Triple Deuce already, will you. Please! 🥺

[@VortexNation]

We'll add it to the idea board!

[@infantilepillock1687]

@@VortexNation Thank you!

[@VortexNation]

@@infantilepillock1687 You bet!

[@FlatlanderGear]

Works on my 6ARC data out to 800

[@VortexNation]

Really? That's super cool!

[@mountainman9973]

Midway sale $399 Rem 700 ADL tactical 6.5 creedmoor. Took it straight out of the box put krg bravo stock, Jewel trigger, 4x27 razor with Arc rings. And it shoots 1/2 MOA with Hornady match 140 grains. OBVIOUSLY THAT'S SITTING DOWN AT A TABLE. But the factory barreled action is pretty darn good

[@austinwebb5418]

I’m not a big fan of 6.5 creedmore but that being said I have a 6.5 Grendel and a 6.5 creedmore and this hack will work for both. Grendel in my opinion and out of my gun a 18 inch heavy barrel ar platform it seen to shoot just a touch flatter out to 600 700 yards but that being said the 6.5 creedmore is a heavier bullet but they are within .65 moa of each other on scope dial. I’m a Grendel guy all the way but stating to like the creedmore out of my savage model 12 lrp rifle.

[@PANG_671]

Wish moa did that my Daniel defense delta 5 pro 18 in barrel 6.5 creedmoor does 160 yards 2 moa 200 yard 2 1/2 moa 230 yards 3 moa 280 yards 5 moa

[@JR-lg7fd]

good lookin rifle

[@randytrudeau952]

Does that assume being zero'd at 100 yards?

[@randytrudeau952]

Just saw that it doesnt. Great trick guys, thanks

[@VortexNation]

@@randytrudeau952 You bet!

[@artiefishing]

And here I thought all this dope stuff was difficult. Buy 6.5 creedmoor, do the math, and boom there it is. Mil optics rule, moa drools.

[@dragonflyfab9703]

Not so! Dont they use MoA in golf!

[@artiefishing]

@@dragonflyfab9703 I don't know about what they use for golf. I reload, shoot and build therefore I am.

[@fivex4756]

Unless your scope has 1/20 mil clicks, you are not even close. To be clear I am talking about target shooting. A game at my local range is hitting penny size target at 300 yards. It is more difficult using 1/10 mil click scope than an 1/8 moa click scope. They both have their places.

[@dragonflyfab9703]

@@fivex4756 Is that 0.1705 shooter minutes or 0.1705 angular minutes?

[@fivex4756]

@@dragonflyfab9703 1/20 or 0.05 milliradian is 0.1719 minute of arc or angle.

[@barryhill6482]

Too cool!

[@shauno7582]

I’m online right now looking for a Mil version scope 😂

[@Meh-hr7gq]

Primary arms ACSS reticle. Check it out.

[@shauno7582]

@@Meh-hr7gq went an Arken EPL4 6-24x50. It’s amazing!

[@born2beashooterjosh397]

Yeah but what about the 6 creedmoor? Not enough down range energy?? I don’t have a 6.5 and love it wish I had a range that goes out to a mile never even shot a 6

[@colorado3.774]

I can’t remember which episode I was listening to about the cost per round 6.5 creedmoor vs 308 and I think it was Ryan brought up that it was in the same bracket essentially I just wanna roast him a little because granted mil surplus vs like a hunting round so I can understand a little bit why it’s not apples to apples but in terms of overall cost and availability of ammo I strongly disagree it’s not even close 308 is staying top dog as long as nato is still sending them down range. I mean maybe that’s because I got that e-4 pay and not whatever vortex pays three dudes that like guns. I still love what you guys do very entertaining and I listen to you guys at least twice a day big fan!

[@danielboggan2479]

6.5 is already cheaper and NATO is going that way instead of the 308 as is.

[@teampyle9835]

At 5k elevation I'm getting less drop than that. This will probably only work for people at lower elevation. Also Temperature changes trajectory fairly significantly.

[@ParasitikOne]

Makes sense if you think about it… higher elevation less dense air=less drag on the cartridge… holds velocity so less time of flight so less drop due to gravity.

[@williamlugar9938]

Great, but would it work with the 6.5 BC. Oh that’s right, the 6.5 BC is still in the, what are we going to do, stage.

[@VortexNation]

OOOOHHHHH good question! Probably not... I mean... The 6.5 is a b*tchcat after all :)

[@donlesley1873]

I know plenty of guys that hit in the black at 500 years with 4 power acog and 5.56 what’s the deal about hitting 4 inches at 200 years with a high powered scope and a high velocity round

[@ratcamaro]

We use MOA, we don't use MILs.

[@Johnny_Benson]

Mil scopes stock just skyrocketed!

[@wilfdarr]

You can do this with a lot of calibers. Applied Ballistics' calls it “speed drop”and their Kestrel will do the math for you, or you can take the time to do it yourself: I wrote an excel sheet that I can drop in my dope, fiddle with some parameters (how accurate do I really need to be?) and it will spit out a number that works for a few hundred yards; fiddle again and I have another number that works for another couple hundred yards (range-2 works for you out to 800, then you might find range-1 works from 800 to 1100 etc). Here's their video on the subject kzbin.info/www/bejne/epKohIOcd8ljhqs

[@VortexNation]

That's super cool! We'll definitely check that out - thanks for passing it along :)