ATC@JFK - "Wanna play games?"

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controller gets angry when an aircraft flies much slower than the preceding traffic in sequence

[@CCitis]

ok as much as i can appreciate approach wanting to run things smoothly, he was playing the game...and the last thing you need when flying is tower toying with you as you are busy on your approach!

[@recacon3]

just... assign... the... speed, DAMMIT!!!!!

[@PacelliA]

Jet blue was at 220 and the controller, after 3 requests, finally assigned a speed of "at least 230". 10 knots seems like a lot to get upset about. It has been my experience that NY controllers do their job extremely well. They're under great pressure and manage a lot of traffic with what little they have. They have always worked with me regarding the little stuff. Granted, I wouldn't expect the crew of an airliner to stray from an airspeed, but the controller was obviously having a tough day.

[@Vincentvuoto]

"JetBlue 852, increase speed to two three zero knots, I've got faster traffic 5 miles behind you." That's all. No need to be an ass, turn him around, and re-sequence him.

[@meRyanP]

For those of you saying the Pilot is an ass, you do not know what he was or was not told by the previous controller, so don't ASSume anything.

[@MichaelCarrPilot]

Love the way the pilot responded, like he didn't just get his ass chewed out. Shame on the controller. Assign a speed and move on instead of making phone number threats.

[@mcospottinghd7157]

Its the pilots fault, for not reading the approach chart.

[@ladymercy5275]

@@mcospottinghd7157 I thought it was the chart handler's fault, for not properly displaying the chart to the pilot. Or maybe it was the chart display experts' fault, for not displaying the charts for the chart handler to know which charts to display, and to whom. Or _maybe_ if a traffic controller of any kind is going to be telling people they're doing it wrong, they damn well better have the proper instructions memorized ahead of time, because that's _their_ job. Here's an idea; maybe the Air Traffic Controller couldn't provide a definite number because they honestly didn't know. Maybe the Air Traffic Controller didn't have the approach chart available, either. Until the moment they provided the requested value. Before then, they were coaching. They were scrimmaging. That's only productive if they were doing training, for heuristic, a.k.a. playing a game.

[@13rdp]

-What speed do you have? -220 -....10 minutes talk.... -what speed do you you want? -230 Such a charade for a 10 kts of ias

[@mercruiser1234]

This controller was standard for JFK, a wiseass. If he needed a speed of "At least 230" and Jetblue was doing 220, he was within the 10 knot window anyways. The flight was past CAMRN intersection, and the crew probably started slowing for the approach a little early. No matter, all the controller should have said when the pilot said "220" is: "I need at least 230 please" He would have gotten 250 in about 10 seconds.

[@jkiang]

When controller talks to you "Expect FL180 in 15 minutes", "Expect Visual 15L Approach", "Expect landing clearance on short final", did he clear you for any of the above? Nope. Airspeed restriction are stated on approach charts and SID/STARs if they are to be complied, like "250K" with a bar on top and under it, or a bar under 250K for "at least 250K". When they put the word expect there, it bares no restrictive meaning. Look at CLARR TWO arrival at KLAS.

[@notafanboy250]

The controller is an idiot for bringing up the chart note. The arrival plate says "EXPECT" to cross at 250 kts. Unless given the crossing limitation, you can fly at 300 kts for all it matters. This differs with other arrivals/departures that instruct you to "CROSS AT 230 kts" in which you MUST cross at the given speed unless given the instruction "speed restriction deleted," etc.

[@cdubois13]

I've had a controller give me a number to call before when I was new Private pilot.I landed on the wrong runway on accident because the controller's transmission was stepped on when he told me to switch numbers.Didn't get into trouble though.Usually they just want to talk to you to strainghten something out.Thats what would usually happen in a case like this.That is unless it's a serious violation.

[@hkangave]

THAT FLIGHT CONTROLLER DRIVES ME CRAZY. FEEL LIKE CRACKING HIS BIG HEAD. pilot was soo cool what do you need SIR ????

[@DavidEightSeven]

I'm sure someone has already pointed this out but 250 knots is not a mandatory restriction at CAMRN or LENDY. If you look at the charted procedure illustrated in the video, it says "expect to cross at 250 knots" AIM section 5-4-1 states "“Expect” altitudes/speeds are not considered STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures crossing restrictions unless verbally issued by ATC." Unless Jetblue was explicitly told to cross the intersection at or to maintain 250 knots, he was in the right.

[@RainbowManification]

The pilot should of been going faster, but the controller should of been professional and just assigned a speed

[@RaiderDestroyer]

the rule is for 250 knots indicated airspeed but the other guy was going 310 knots Ground speed.

[@DelfinoDelphis]

@SoloNetherlands Zulab is a FIX, a point on the map. Outer marker is a device placed on the path that makes a funny sound when you fly above it ;)

[@jodecci]

LOL our Jetblue pilots are always calm with ATC no matter what. =P The ATC guy looked like a fool if u tell me.

[@FarrierNoire]

All the ATC had to say was “hey if you’re not at 230 could you please go to that thank you” and it’d be done lmao but he wanted to argue by being extremely sarcastic and after the pilot asked “what do you need sir” .. ATC argued even FURTHER! This guy needs to be fired.

[@Limehammers]

I don't know, that pilot did exactly what he was told to right away... the atc gave him crap... but the pilot just kept askin "what speed do you want me at?" that pilot did what he could to make things easy... the atc created the drama...

[@cagepondroad]

@TracyAndersonFoxhunt I'm not sure if he was the one with the attitude. If ATC is that busy in trying to run the operation as smoothly and efficiently as he says he would not have spent as much time with his sarcastic dissertation. I hear this and then Boston John at Logan, and I think a friendly and professional demeanor goes a long way in taking away any potential threats of mishaps.

[@notafanboy250]

Ditto, Bart! That's what people here don't get. The chart says "expect." We'd have to listen to how the original clearance was given. You beat me to writing your response.

[@debiassi]

yes there is but and thats what was depicted on the approach chart so thats what the controller would have rightly expected

[@d0rkiishchris]

what did the pilot do wrong? he asked for a speed because he accepted the fact that he was at the wrong speed.

[@jesusfreak0818]

@TracyAndersonFoxhunt naaaah, the controller came in with attitude as soon as they said 220. all he had to do is say i need at least 230 right then, and would have got it a lot sooner too.

[@_Tommmmmm_]

It basically means that the pilot did something wrong, and the controller wants him to call so they discuss what went wrong. They have them call instead of discussing it over the frequency because then they would be blocking out all other traffic.

[@hourbuilder]

@ryanzee95 Sorry thats wrong. The charts say to 'expect' the speeds, and they do this in order to plan your decent. If it says 250 and your doing 280 and ATC asks you to slow, you're now in a position where you need to lose height and speed and this isn't easy. If the chart says expect a clearance and you don't get one- it is an ATC cock up and not the problem of the pilot- sorry it's true.

[@SGobuck]

This is interesting, because a female ATC told a BA pilot to do 150 in a 757.. or was it 180? I better call the tower again..🤷‍♂️😄

[@planeliker]

i listen to New York Approach on 124.075 which covers southern CT to the CT river and points south to long island and white plains. they do a fantastic job every day. what makes New York Airspace tough is the mix of general aviation and commercial traffic. the radio is buzzing during the day.

[@notafanboy250]

Yeah, it has almost always been the case where ATC will instruct us to cross as it appears on the chart. Sometimes they may forget, though, which is where you may want to query them.

[@darkagent442]

it doesnt matter who is in the right and who is the wrong, instead of getting all pissy, atc should have just told him to go 230 or more, period.

[@elbagrau]

Lesson N 3 : How to win an argument by staying calm.

[@thresher4]

Busy controller but he could have said to speed up to what ever speed needed to maintain sequence.

[@jkiang]

Further more, look at FAR/AIM section 5-4-1 (1) 'STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures may have mandatory speeds and/or crossing altitudes published. Other STARs may have planning information depicted to inform pilots what clearances or restrictions to “expect.” “Expect” altitudes/speeds are not considered STAR/RNAV STAR/FMSP procedures crossing restrictions unless verbally issued by ATC.'

[@TheCarlez]

Well, that's why i'm no Air traffic controller. The job isn't for everyone, if you can't handle the stress then you either need to work on it or switch to a lower intensity airport. If we as you say, cut overstressed controllers some slack, then the air won't be as safe as it should be.

[@jkiang]

It gets worse here in the US. Often time they say one one niner point one, or even worse, nineteen ten. :(

[@mmosko76]

what the pilot did wrong was he crossed CAMRN below 250 kts where it clearly states on the STAR that you are to maintain 250 kts or greater crossing CAMRN unless otherwise instructed.

[@FlyingWing92]

Wow! Things got a little heated there did they!

[@Ruddy761]

It like sending him to the principals office.. For a scolding..

[@bart99gt]

The STAR says "expect" 250kts. Obviously we can't tell from this exchange if center assigned him a speed, but technically there's no operational error here. Yeah, its going to probably irritate the controller because it will make is life harder by either having to slow everyone behind him or send others around him. But there's no need to lash out like that. If 250kts was the slowest speed permitted, it would be underlined on the chart. Look at the ERLIN 5 arrival for KATL as an example.

[@GixxerGuy]

they say it to threaten pilot to get them in trouble, they give u a number to call and u get in trouble basically.

[@dva511]

why always this funny, and crazy things happen with jfk atc?

[@pacdset50]

I did the same thing when I was a student pilot. I was told to enter a left base for 26 but for some reason, my brain took that as 31, the other runway. They understood that i was a student pilot but they called my instructor later that day. Now i check 4 or 5 times to make sure i'm setting up for the correct runway

[@abangjohnny]

if u guys have noticed...... most stressful and funny and chaotic atc conversations are in the jfk arrival and departure stream. why? jfk is the busiest airport in the world? i tot that's heathrow?

[@ThePilotBuddy]

im not a pilot but from watching some ATC videos, i think when the ATC gives you a number to call, its a bad thing 0.o

[@Jantelover]

Passive-aggressive wasps meet over-aggressive wops hahaha -- Pilot bluffs, atc calls, settling an old score Not for nothin' -- Phrase meaning "what I'm about to say is important." Generally said as "Not f'nuthin', but...." NYC/East Coast slang of the caucasian working class (particularly Italians) eg, "Not for nothing, but your mom has the best rack I've seen in years" Old Italian expression non per niente meaning not that I have anything to gain by it

[@dave0mary]

One point is that THAT JB pilot will always fly that approach at the assigned speed in the future. Another point is information is given on approach info for what reason? Yeah - so you actually READ it and FOLLOW it. Then the controllers don't spend their time telling you all you should be doing. It's called standardization; and it keeps the flying public SAFE. Read and follow, it's that simple. If the pilot would have observed and followed, there would be NO anger.

[@cagepondroad]

My sentiments exactly, couldn't have put it any better.

[@abeamarra]

Probably the Jetblue pilot had a bad encounter with that same ATC before that's why he replied "wanna play a game"?

[@traxx228]

He is changing from approach which is who you hear to tower control frequency 119.1

[@Southerncowboyz]

Look at the arrival.

[@jkiang]

Expected clearance at 250 kt doesn't mean cross at 250 kt.

[@DutchFlightTours]

What is Zulab? And something else, what is "Report outer marker"?

[@dave0mary]

Got this from the FAA (email) reply: "Expect is not a clearance so you would not execute the 'expect' instruction unless actually instructed. If you lose radio contact then you would follow the 'expect' instruction without a clearance. If you're in that position, you could always query the controller for the descent. In the airline world, ATC is usually very good at issuing instructions which coincide with the 'expect' instructions on an arrival." Therefore, you are right!

[@Xcalibur18]

Is this guy the happy air traffic controller from the other vid? They sound the same.

[@TheCarlez]

i don't see why that controller was so mad at him, If he's moving too slow just assign him a new speed. Bitching about it will actually stop him from "moving traffic safely and efficient to jfk". These controllers should take a stress pill.

[@hourbuilder]

ATC is wrong, and being a pilot I'm probably biased. The chart says to "expect" a clearance of 250kts 11000'....pilot is right, ATC should have asigned a speed.

[@mplays]

Is there not a 250knot speed limit below 10.000 feet?

[@hourbuilder]

@ryanzee95 I'd be interested in your opinion on the clearance limit point on each star. Now based on the fact that you should "expect' the clearance before the limit, are you telling me you should continue the approach even without one. FIRST THING IS FIRST- DOES IT NOT STRIKE YOU AS ODD THIS VIDEO STARTS WITH THE ATC AT KENNEDY ASKING THE PILOT THE SPEED HE'S DOING???? HOW CAN YOU NOT KNOW ??? OH, YOU DIDN'T ASSIGN A SPEED !!

[@SOUTHERNheavy]

Let us not forget, that if there were no pilots doing 220, the controllers would have no job. Pilots are their customers...

[@Maverickx89]

why doesnt the controller just assign speed? He's playing games stucking the channel with unneeded chatter.

[@jjovereats]

and on Concorde, it's 270 until 6nm.

[@frequentairbusflyer8]

actually atlanta hartsfield jackson international airport is the busiest in the world by far.

[@TheCarlez]

Now I didn't say you were a pilot either did I? You're right about that though, he shouldn't have flown at 220. But that's no reason for the controller to bitch at him, why couldn't he simply ask the a/c to increase his speed and kindly inform him that that's the minimum on that approach. Sounds to me like this controller had a bad day and needed something to lash out against.

[@TheSound0fLegends]

In the time he spend being a dic there could have been an accident as his concentration was on shaming someone over the air, which again is totally unprofessional. That's 2 strikes on one call, imo he should be reprimanded.

[@planemadmatt]

Hahaha! What a muppet!

[@Ruddy761]

It's like sending him to the principals office..

[@tom888uk]

To argue some more on landline

[@hourbuilder]

250kt below 10000' is only in Class D and lower....A,B and C can do more only if ATC approve!

[@jonny2387]

controller was within in his rights. but he could have just ask jbu to speed up . then pilot also was an idiot sayin "you wanna play a game" .if i were the controller i would have given him a number to call

[@ThePilotman329]

Well that's common radio phraseology in the states...

[@Avilator189]

250 is the max indicated speed. I.E., what the airplane is doing with respect to the air. If there is any wind, the speed across the ground will be different. Though I highly doubt the wind was 60 knots at the altitude they were at. Maybe the following traffic was in the process of slowing down before the waypoint?

[@Phoebekeely]

This guy, and the Sincargo 7997 guy, must be brothers! God help us.

[@TRS717]

Or perhaps if they had flown the procedure the right way to begin with, they wouldn't have had any problems. What a concept!

[@GixxerGuy]

i hate that threat...."i gotta number i can give you" just hate it

[@qckslvr]

Very true. But, at JFK there is always a high volume of traffic, you can't fool around when you have an entire flow set up. Plus, he's a New Yorker, and so am I. That's how we do things lol.

[@hourbuilder]

@dogsofwarclan hey- you clearly aren't a pilot. An expected clearance is different from a direct clearance. An expected clearance is there to aid a pilot for decent planning as you descend at a slower rate when you are flying slower. Therefore based on the fact the ATC had to ask the speed the pilot was flying, he obviously didn't assign a speed. ATC is there to aid pilots not the other way around.

[@skysnet]

peh...I would have gotten the number to call and complained to this jerk's boss.

[@daspidrr]

not with you, mr. "i'm trying to run the traffic effectively and smoothly into kennedy airport...." is this kind of time that he just shouldnt take on the frequency and, if that's not enough to you, it's unprofesional. I was totally with him when he quoted the approach plates because he proves the pilot that he was not doing his job, but everything else just makes me feel the same way jetblue pilot felt..... playing games with this guy

[@d0rkiishchris]

so he was 10 knots slower.... without being told what to do. You fly what your FMX says is a good decent speed. Approach plates don't have speeds on them, for whoever said that. What if you get a plane that can't do 220 knots?

[@Agora2021]

It means you're in deep shit if you get a number.

[@thebassistvictor]

That's exactly what it means...

[@seashorelineone]

Controller should have simply told him to turn for spacing. Don’t even think about playing games with controllers or pilots with souls on board trusting you with their lives.

[@Arne309]

What happens if they give the pilots "a number to call". Where are they calling? What are the consequences?

[@cat22planes]

@Learjet31Pilot ...and there is the clincher!!

[@Xcalibur18]

Is this the happy controller from the other clip? Sounds less happy in this one.

[@armymanal]

i dont get that beacause i always thought that 250 knots was the max speed under 10,000 can someone explain who really acually knows please.

[@BorisKnoT]

@isilder What was that supposed to mean?

[@djwoodhouse]

yea i dont the pilot or controller is at fault, for seperation the pilot shouldn't be slowed already, however the controllers phraseologies were a nightmare: "what speed are you at?" dont remember seeing that in the ICAO standards

[@BluegrassFilmsKY]

The runway is easier to clean up!

[@heyeveryoneimcool]

New York, New York

[@Aviationobsession]

Hes trying to get exra flighttime!

[@erauprcwa]

It's no excuse, if he feels stressed he should consider a day off, I know ATC is a hard job but the controller just should've given the correct approach speed rather than rambling off, safety is important and to me that was not professional or safe. NYC is a hard area but that doesn't give controllers the right to be assholes.

[@MGXsport]

I fly into the same airspace. 91.3 read it

[@Learjet31Pilot]

No. While of course I would always love to have more fuel on that plane, I can't imagine why anyone would get the 31ER - the baggage space is even worse. We have the trunk locker and that is a real help as well. I agree it climbs like a raped ape!

[@robflys]

The arrival says to EXPECT 250. It was not assigned. Controller should have ASSIGNED a speed if he needed it for spacing. End of story. Pilot did nothing wrong.

[@ladymercy5275]

Air Traffic Controller was challenging Pilot's expectations of how to conform to the social standards imposed by physical constraints, so as to maintain the ordinary behavior of air traffic at Air Traffic Controller's home environment. That is the essence of playing. Here's a cat and bird playing: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHW7mYWXrKaqi5Y I'm not going to make the claim that playing is a mistake. There's a reason why natural selection produced creatures that train each other to survive better, through play. But ATC was definitely initiating a game, by suggesting Pilot will _"try that and just see what happens."_ That's playing a game--it's heuristic.

[@smartboy4]

Call the facility I think.

[@windycloud23]

LOL good post thanks.

[@j5p332]

I on the other hand support the controller. The pilot should readily accept the controllers instructions. Not ask if he wants to play games. Had he just asked how he could resolve it first, there would have been probably 15-20 seconds more time where he would have been making the correction. The pilot made himself like a cocky overzealous newbie that should still be sitting shotgun, IMHO.

[@erauprcwa]

what the hell was that?