Part One: Robert E. Lee: A Lifetime of Failure | BEHIND THE BASTARDS

[@RaptieFeathers]

Speaking on behalf of the furry community, we disavow Robert E. Lee, and firmly condemn his actions.

[@Ezekiel_Allium]

This is a very fun comment to see before knowing the context

[@casanovafunkenstein5090]

Furr E. Lee?

[@TreyaTheKobold]

With exception to Jay Naylor. Look, he's just like that, okay?

[@erikrungemadsen2081]

Now i can’t unimagine the rebel yell as a bunch of confederate furries screaming “Uwu” while charging union lines. You broke something in me.

[@RaptieFeathers]

@@TreyaTheKobold What's funny is that I've met the guy, and... Yeah. He's chill to hang out around, at least. Just don't bring up politics, haha

[@nope2603]

In my early 20s, I started to consider that maybe my parents weren't too smart when they tried explaining that Lee was actually patriotic *and* opposed slavery. So anyways, I'm stoked for these.

[@geordiejones5618]

It's always sad when you hear kids talk about losing touch with their parents, but many adults huff the copium.

[@seancain2216]

Prop is, literally, the best person we could ever have for this episode. Man has me in tears! Thanks, Prop.

[@Brian_Boru]

So glad it's not figuratively!

[@jamesphelps1958]

I’m so confused. I really don’t like him. Why do you prefer him over the other guests? I miss Billy Wayne and the knowledge fight guys so much

[@shadeitplease7383]

@@jamesphelps1958I dislike him too. In the past my opinion of him on the episodes has been he just repeats what Robert said in a slightly different way then says “you knowwhatimnsayinnn”. Doesn’t really add much to the discussion. Maybe this series will be different lol

[@dziban303]

I don't like him either, his interludes are just a bunch of inane hypotheticals. Yes Prop, we understand the concept of "keeping up appearances," we don't need your clumsy explanation for 5th graders

[@loorthedarkelf8353]

100% this for me, too

[@RamenKitsune]

As someone who was taught the most "state rights" version of american history back in school, this is gonna be a great listen.

[@BaronVonQuiply]

My condolences, I run into people every now and then who try to defend that and I imagine it's not fun to discover that the "obvious truth" you've been told since childhood is a literal joke.

[@HarryDirtay]

Man, I had a teacher in Massachusetts in HS that was from the south and was a big lost cause guy. The textbooks we used had the confederate constitution printed in it so his rhetoric was directly opposed to the text we were reading. When confronted he basically did the "Nope, nope, nope, nope" thing. It was incredibly funny

[@woahblackbettybamalam]

Thats the truth of it. Slavery was never economically viable anyway

[@jayr5277]

@@HarryDirtayBizarrely had the opposite experience. Had a teacher in North Carolina who REALLY hammered home that the civil war was, at its core, about slavery. One of my classmates brought up states rights and the teacher responded by reading the Cornerstone Speech.

[@nicolasbroaddus8819]

Feels good to hear another burned out anarchistic Texan break down the lies of the Lost Cause and General Lee

[@ThermiteThonk]

who's the other(s)?

[@HyenaDandy]

@@ThermiteThonk I assume that Nicolas here is also a burnt-out texan.

[@Rocker42070]

I’m a burned out Mississippi historian and communist so I get it.

[@ThermiteThonk]

@@HyenaDandy yeah that's entirely my fault for not catching, lol. I think I replied just after 2 exams

[@burnedbread4691]

JT from Second Thought?

[@toml1105]

Richard Henry Lee and Robert E. Lee’s father, Henry Lee III, are two different people. They were first cousins. Richard Henry Lee issued the Lee Resolution and signed the Declaration of Independence and Henry Lee was Light Horse Harry.

[@dziban303]

I bailed on this episode when they conflated the two. Disappointing

[@MichaelStichauf]

@@dziban303 Yes, I bailed, as well. When I ran across this podcast a few days ago (it was in my recommendations because of all my history subscriptions) I thought I would check it out, especially when I saw that they just uploaded the last of 4 podcasts on Lee. I like binging something like this. I put all 4 in order and started listening about 45 minutes ago. But, when I heard them combine Lee's old man with his grandfather, that was it for me. I'm not trying to trash these guys especially because they are tearing the South's and MAGA world's god to pieces, as well they should! MAGA and all of the bigots in the South want you to believe that slavery was a positive for the slaves. REALLY?!? I just have a hard time listening to something like this when all they had to do was double check their info before doing these episodes. For half-hearted history listeners who want short form info, this is okay for them because the overarching theme of the 4 episodes is that Lee was a bum and should have been hung along with quite a few others! If we'd have done that after we torched and crushed the confederacy, we wouldn't be in the situation that we are in today with this scumbag Trump running AGAIN in order to create a dictatorship for himself!

[@StephenNatoli-l6j]

​@@dziban303get over it you pathetic nazi lover

[@StephenNatoli-l6j]

Wrong inbred, Henry Lee 3 was lighthorse Harry and his father. Sorry you don't like documented history

[@StephenNatoli-l6j]

​@@dziban303not as disappointing as your uneducated inbred nazi ass

[@Southboundpachyderm]

I’m so fucking excited for a 4 part series with prop.

[@danpatrones6360]

Within the first 16 minutes you correctly identify Lee and Cromwell as among the worst people to have ever lived? Fucking nailed it! Well done, great podcast.

[@tora0neko]

Prop episodes are the best. on par with the more news crew episodes

[@r.w.bottorff7735]

This is exactly the kind of historical person I had hoped you would cover soon, thank you! Props to Prop and Sofie too, of course.

[@ProfessorChaos56]

I would have expected them to do Jefferson Davis first, but this works to.

[@LavenderGooms]

A rare uplifting historical fact that makes me smile every time I think about it is everything that happened to Arlington House. Siezing it from him, buying it for half a million in today's dollars, and burying the dead of the war he was waging right in his front lawn. I just love it. The fact that he loved that house too makes it even better. E: Just listened to part 2! I stand corrected, crazy how widespread myths about him are. Still happy that the US bought it for peanuts.

[@vector712]

I always found it hilarious when they rag on their sponsors because when I used to listen to this on Spotify a majority of the ads were Robert Evans promoting other podcasts.

[@trioptimum9027]

I mean, look: Robert Evans is not a money-laundering scheme for the Sinaloa cartel. No respectable cartel would trust him with their money, he'd spend it on machetes and Bearcats.

[@StephenNatoli-l6j]

You're an idiot. Those were him doing actual ad reads, he doesn't do that often anymore

[@Hubris21]

I think this was the first time I've seen KZbin put an ad on your video. Congrats.

[@Advent3546]

You know it's gonna be a good couple of episodes when they get Prop in

[@fredericksmith7942]

Yeah, he’s fuckjng great.

[@almightytallestred]

Agreed!

[@jamesphelps1958]

Hes my absolute least favorite. I just think he’s so little value add and drags down conversation because his base level of knowledge is so low. Why do you like him? I just need to understand. I must be missing something

[@StellarBoBellar]

​@@fredericksmith7942this is a podcast. Personalities are important to it and his is great. If you want a dry list of facts, just read a book or something.

[@Tsmithleather]

​@@jamesphelps1958yeah, you're missing something...

[@defies4626]

And here we go. From what I hear, Robert is gonna be off the chain with these few episodes

[@dudewhoa14]

I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate how dope the moniker “Lite Horse Harry” is. That’s a freaking nickname baby

[@trioptimum9027]

Sometimes shitty people have incredible nicknames. Lord Kitchener of Khartoum was sometimes known as "K of Chaos." Hell, "Stonewall" is a pretty sweet nickname too.

[@EvilGenius007]

So I loved Goldeneye but I had more exposure to pop culture than to video games as a kid that age. I thought the big head "DK Mode" was short for Don King... Finally somebody broke it to me that it was supposed to be Donkey Kong.

[@three-eyed_magpie]

15:32 There will be an Oliver Cromwell episode? Can't wait!

[@TheDarthbinky]

The thing that gets me about talking about Civil War generals as being good or bad is... well... they were *all* pretty bad. It's just that some were worse than others.

[@jessaminehaak8253]

Prop is always such a fantastic guest! Loved this episode and I'm looking forward to the rest of the series on Lee, you guys were hilarious today!

[@shadeitplease7383]

Should turn the KZbin version of the show in to a podcast with slides like WTYP to drive traffic lol.

[@jerrylee7898]

I am supposedly a descendant of Robert E. Lee, thanks for doing such a great job.

[@jays.6843]

Get well soon

[@Dr.Thirteen-bb1ub]

I was a Civil War buff for awhile until I grew out of it. I credit the movie Gods and Generals for that. What a steaming pile of apologist garbage that is.

[@Asylumrunner8]

PROP! Hell yeah

[@FTZPLTC]

Glad to see some acknowledgement that the whole "pilgrim fathers fleeing religious persecution" thing in America's origin story can also be read as "even Europe was entirely done with their shit". Not saying we were some bastion of tolerance in the 17th century, but to be persecuted as a *Christian* back then would take some doing. Also nice that you touched upon the weird way that aristocrats distinguish being given money by their rich friends from charity. Another way they do it (and still do it) is employing each other in what Terry Pratchett called "silly jobs for big wages".

[@TelenTerror]

I've heard it called 'wingnut welfare' for the ultra-conservative circles. If you're crazy enough, you can get paid to be a columnist or a talking head for SOME right-wing media organization

[@aickavon]

If I recall correctly, I believe the pilgrims originally went to the Netherlands… But the netherlands were too woke for them and they left.

[@FTZPLTC]

@@aickavon - I work with Dutch stuff pretty much every day but for some reason I still read that as "neanderthals". And yeah, the "persecution" was pretty much because they wanted to persecute other people. Classic paradox of tolerance stuff.

[@johonsberger]

My anabaptist ancestors came to NA because THEY were being persecuted by both the Protestants and Catholics. But that's never who they mean, is it.

[@dylanrodrigues]

Unfortunately, Protestants, Catholics and the Orthodox had no problem persecuting their fellow Christians, so these freaks weren’t special. It’s still funny how they managed to annoy all of their fellow Europeans though.

[@kingofsting19]

I grew up with a black first grade teacher and a black next door neighbor in Indiana, and my first indicator that racism was a present tense thing and not a past tense one was realizing that the Confederate flag *wasn't* ours. Because there was no other explanation for "why does everyone fly that and never the Union one?"

[@JerichotheSplendid]

Ah the intro made me sad. RIP Carl. You get your stew.

[@SavageGreywolf]

He finally has his hand back

[@roneasleyjr.1831]

Man, I appreciate the shout-out to Dale Earnhardt!!! Forever my hero!!! #DaleYeah

[@BongRippingRiffLover51]

RAISE HELL PRAISE DALE, BROTHER!!!

[@pjbrown4736]

I remember booting up Leesylvania on the NES.

[@dancingpotplant]

The Lees aside, this is a fascinating insight into life in to the recent history American South from where I'm sitting in the UK.

[@XaurianQueen]

No wonder my dad wanted us to join the air force. We came from three generations of officers, we might've done ok if we werent all depressed and suffering from c-ptsd. We saw what the military helped do to him and grandpa XD

[@sampagano205]

I did not realize the lee family backstory included a Crimson Peaks interlude where theyre dirt poor and taking advantage of the family wives.

[@Vesta148]

Dale Earnhardt as an archon of masculinity really works when you consider he died partly because he refused to adopt a safety mechanism. No shade on Dale, don't know enough about him as a man, but just a nice little bit of bitter irony

[@endeckerBM]

"Leesylvania" isn't such a strange name. It simply means something like "Lee's Woods", just like Pennsylvania means "Penn's Woods". There are lots of place names in the U.S. that are a combination of a surname and a location, so "Leesylvania" isn't really all that remarkable a name for a place to be given.

[@sampagano205]

It's not strange, it's just bad.

[@PerfectAgent]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was like, "It's gonna be wild when they figure out where Pennsylvania comes from."

[@veniaminkhil8651]

I got married in Leesylvania, it's a state park nowadays. Really nice view of the Potomac.

[@corinnapetry65]

This. Is. Great!

[@cinemaocd1752]

In a million years I would not have guessed that the most unhinged song in the very unhinged musical 1776 is historically ACCURATE. OMG. I didn't realize he was an ancestor of the Civil War Lee, but I shoulda realized. Also the actor that plays Lee in 1776 is a human muppet and kind of steals the whole movie...Also kinda blown away at the fact that White Christmas was historically accurate as well.

[@matthewryan9323]

Richard Henry Lee (in 1776) was a cousin of Robert E. Lee's father, so not quite an ancestor. "Light Horse Harry" Lee, was Henry Lee III. Mr. Evans' conflation of the two is unfortunate.

[@manyeyedcrow9391]

As a native Californian, it feels like the lost cause was pretty much injected into the veins of anyone of a certain age, regardless of where they come from.

[@snorpenbass4196]

Somewhere, Mick Hucknall is going "Why do I feel like someone is talking about me?"

[@TwoWholeWorms]

When someone has E as a middle initial, but their surname is also a first name, I can't help but hear it as an adjective describing the other name. "Do you know Grant?" "Which one?" "Richardy Grant."

[@suzbone]

Robert E Lee is just more _Roberty_ than the other Lees.

[@baronvonkrogglesteiniii5310]

Ever meet someone for the first time and you instantly know they're way smarter than they let on? 20 minutes ago I had no idea who Prop is, but he keeps dropping down to earth off the cuff contexualizations and now I respect him more than I respect myself.

[@samcyphers2902]

Is America the only country that puts up monuments to people who LOST their wars? Also, don't forget how much Carl Weathers liked to make a good stew. And he taught Tobias everything he knows about acting.

[@BongRippingRiffLover51]

Pigeons and crows gotta shit somewhere!

[@samcyphers2902]

@@BongRippingRiffLover51 They can poo on Donald Trump's hair. Probably nest there, too.

[@marocat4749]

Happy gilmore and little nicjky are my 2 favourite sandler movies.

[@TheNotoriousBTG]

17:40 Fun fact, but Knott's Berry Farm's Independence Hall was used in the movie 1776.

[@corinnapetry65]

Being a teetotaler, especially if you weren't an evangelist type, was very rare. The colonials drank constantly - beer, ale, whiskey, wine - because they didn't apparently know how to get clean water.

[@sophia-helenemeesdetricht1957]

Yeah, it's not lost on me, and I don't think it should be lost on anyone here, that Lee's extremely wealthy, exceptionally white aristocratic dad is precisely who racists are actually complaining about when they blame poverty and other... *sharp inhale* _characteristics common to impoverished urban communities, considered unseemly to the racist white milieu?_ on absentee fathers. (I'm sorry, Reagan-era racism was so blatant and unrepentant that to talk frankly about it is to risk saying something out of pocket by way of description, but it's also so blatant that being delicate about it is very difficult)

[@theconversationalpainter2020]

There was a rum rebellion in New South Wales colony in the 19th century. The army was paid partly in Rum and they had a coup in order to get more rum. The interesting thing is that the govenor at the time was William Bligh. So he not only lost a ship but a colony as well.

[@shaurmiath6719]

As a fellow Northwesterner who was unfortunate enough to grow up in Texas, I was raised and educated on the whole "states' rights" BS, and even as a child, I would always think "The States' right to do what? What rights did the evil federal government try to take away from them?" My Dad didn't like it when I asked that.

[@theelephantintheroom8016]

In the first census in the year 1800 America's population was around 5 million people with almost 900,000 being slaves. 1 in 5 Americans in the year 1800 was a slave. In 1807 it became prohibited to import slaves. At the beginning of the Civil War the United States population was 31,443,320 and around 4 million were slaves.

[@BaraScrae]

On the note about corporate loans, can confirm: I work for a satellite launch company, and they just announced a huge stock sale to raise the money to pay off old debt so current income can support new contracts. I can feel the company dying around me.

[@BlindErephon]

Hell yeah, we draggin one of the the WROATs! (Worst Roberts Of All Time)

[@VeronicaHSong]

My favourite part so far is the "not a pedo award", feels special and exciting!!

[@emmadillon5694]

i live in virginia, so i'm pretty sure the nearest guy selling steaks out of the van is actually named Bobby Lee

[@VooshSpokesman]

Love from a DoobusGoobus and Vaush fan! "State rights to do WHAT?!"

[@VioletSadi]

@38:27 "you simply had to give the man credit" DO NOT DO THAT. HE WILL CHEAT YOU.

[@jakegarvin7634]

17:16 Jesus, even Penn didn't want Pennsylvania

[@chimsuaumo]

Was not expecting Mick Hucknall to be mentioned at the beginning. A great singer with an odd Twitter account.

[@scarylion1roar]

my new defense will be "It's my heritage, not larceny, Your Honor."

[@portmantologist]

To be fair, Leesylvania isn't any dumber than Pennsylvania. It's Lee's Forest versus Penn's Forest. We're just so used to hearing Pennsylvania that we don't think about how dumb it is.

[@sampagano205]

Pennsylvania has a lot better ring to it.

[@alden1132]

"Baby, you've got a stew going!"

[@wcs792]

Don't apologize to Robert E Lee, sir. I don't care if you're 100x worse than him, but don't apologize to him.

[@EmmaBonn96]

26:05 I thought Robert E. Lee’s daddy was the 18th president of the United States

[@Revolver1701]

I hope you weigh in on the whole Robert Duval vs Martin Sheen Robert E. Lee portrayal.

[@trioptimum9027]

15:40 Look, as an anarchist obviously I stan a Leveller, but if Cromwell hadn't won, the other basic option is "Charles I wins," and that might be worse. (Sure, something else *could* have happened, but it'd take quite a lot of lifting to explain how, y'know?)

[@edsimons628]

Will you be covering RE Lee's older half-brother "Black-Horse Harry" Lee? He made their father look good in comparison.

[@christopherjustice6411]

I approve.

[@sonder420]

Not a bastard John brown.

[@williamredmond8128]

Lt. Lee!!!!

[@ChewyThomson]

What a title

[@HyenaDandy]

Oh (he's) FFV, the first family, in the first colony in America.

[@theconversationalpainter2020]

My favourite Carl Waethers has to be Predator.

[@witecatj6007]

If Lee was such a good general, whyndid he lose?

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Largely karma for being a POS slaver, but also strategic logistics, and probably fatigue right at the point of Gettysburg

[@the_exegete]

Because his suthron honor wouldn't allow him to take the winning play, which was to stay in Virginia and fortify until the north got tired of sending armies there. Instead he bet it all on invading the north, something there was never any real reason to think was achievable.

[@TelenTerror]

He knew how to win battles, but didn't know how to win them without getting troops killed when he was already outnumbered. He lost on strategy and demographics.

[@HarryDirtay]

The south was largely agrarian, the North was larvely industrialized. The south never stood a chance in the long run. The civil war was a fool's errand.

[@EzraFieldsofStrawberry]

​@@HarryDirtay Not true. The South did have a chance to "win". If public opinion of the war in the North was sufficient-Lee negative, then the South might have won (successfully seceeded). They were never going to invade or hold the north, nor was that the objective.

[@dziban303]

I like Robert's writing, voice, and reading style way more than i like basically any of the guests

[@draconious4005]

> The Lees are Episcopalian, which is like Catholicism with a worse set designer Pardon me, sir? I believe the correct line is “like Catholicism with half the guilt”

[@nathanbreen1495]

I'm tryin real hard to remember a Carl Weathers performance that was even just medium and I can't do it.....Little Nicky cause he was barely in it maybe?

[@marocat4749]

Yes little nicky is pretty fun in a good way. And god is that movire stacked, and best terentino cameo

[@the_exegete]

He's pretty forgettable in Eight Crazy Nights, but that was clearly a bit role where Adam Sandler tossed him a quick payday. Not holding that against him.

[@direktive4]

like an NBA Jam code

[@3picHamster]

wait, he is decended from british nobility, and his house is called "Lee"? Is that the same Lee as in sir Christopher Lee?

[@llabreell]

Wtf??? I was just in the middle of listening to "we can't put this guys name in the title..." and it all of a sudden stopped.. then when I tried to hit play again, it gives me a message saying it's private.. SERIOUSLY?! WTF?

[@nicolasnamed]

Oh shit dude, it IS gone! Just to clarify that video was about the guy who definitely didn't self end right?

[@llabreell]

@nicolasnamed idk what happened to him? I was only about halfway thru part 1..

[@sippinthefnordies]

Anyone else got Tenacious D stuck in their headnow? Lee laLee laLee laLee laLee Leeeee, muthafuqin LEEeeee.

[@Brian_Boru]

Because Houston sounds like Jackson.

[@Chaosqueenngami]

42:02 That’s the only way to do it as far as I’m concerned.

[@jencamille9687]

you are factually wrong at 26:01 - R.E. Lee's father is Henry "Light Horse" Lee III NOT Richard Henry Lee. While they are some what distant cousins, Lee's father Light Horse is famous for a successful career under General G. Washington in the Rev War, giving Washington's eulogy, becoming a governor of Virginia, marrying first a fabulously wealthy niece of Richard Henry Lee, Matilda Lee of Strafford and second marrying Anne Hill Carter the g-granddaughter of the wealthiest Virginian of the age Robert "King" Carter, and finally ending his life as a debtor who abandons his family. Richard Henry Lee is of the Strafford Lees, he and his brother Frances signed the Declaration of Independence as he infamously called for colonial independence which promoted the Declaration being written. The distinction is important if using psychology and family relationships/history, like Dr. Guelzo who you cite, as the reasons behind Lee's life and decisions. Liking the podcast so far and agree/support many of the Guelzoian theories you are using but essential factual mistakes detract from the validity of your argument since the heart of your argument is based on how much these men are key to understanding Lee and whether he committed "treason". Great otherwise, looking forward to listening more ~

[@rjdruhan]

Episcopalian is the American offshoot of the Church of England. They likely would have hated Catholics vehemently

[@rothloaf1980]

Yesterday when I heard this pod, when Robert said "Dick E Lee" I heard it as *dickily.* Ex: "He acted so dickily."

[@Nemo12417]

Even if Lee was a good general, so what? When people discuss Lee as a historical figure, it is primarily for his role in trying to defend the American chattel slave system. Being good at his job doesn't absolve him of moral condemnation. Being good at that kind of job is, in fact, a BAD thing.

[@raymarshall4809]

Tim Scott for any White person in da chat.

[@Sadiqi]

They were not "slaves". They were enslaved. My descendants are not identified by their condition in this country.

[@davidpitchford6510]

Black KissAsstry Month

[@jellyfishjones4741]

Who Was Harriet Tubman? has the most absurd cover. Has huge headed Harriet leading a bunch of people with normal sized heads.

[@pscwplb]

Hell yeah, screw this guy.

[@wesshiflet2214]

“Indian weed” = tobacco

[@davidrobertson4332]

Granny Lee

[@IanOPadrick]

Robert, you're forgetting James Bowie, you're forgetting the Alamo. You have truly fallen

[@willklemm509]

Can I nominate Jamie Liddell as a honorary black if we're nominating Simply Red?

[@zmcarver]

Please don't take this wrong, I am by no means trying to be one of those people defending Lee. However, if you're going to do series on Lee, would you please also do one on that sociopath Sherman who took those save Civil War actions he's revered for and used them against the Native Americans. I feel like he just gets a pass because he was on the Union side.

[@theangryholmesian4556]

Yep. What Sherman did to Indigenous folks is wrong. What the South did as a whole to their Indigenous folks is wrong.

[@aickavon]

It’s an interesting perspective and on one hand. The dude was a total psychopath with no chill. Even if his actions helped accelerate the Union victory, you gotta imagine that the will and desire to just burn formerly fellow country man’s homes for MILES and it’s a lot of miles… Not a sane dude… like it is a bit obvious that he’s a bit of a crazy fella who will war crime again. Hooowwweeeever…. Usually most people who attack Sherman are tackling in ‘what about-isms’ which is often a dishonest tactic to throw away the conversation onto one person and now force folks to defend another. So engaging in a topic about Sherman’s past can often lead to just weird optics in general.

[@Coffeemancer]

Good-Person episode about Jason's wife or I unsub

[@TheGoodShipBlue]

Wow 22:30, Prop said civil war era America is pre-industrial. Blatantly false. Really betrayed his ignorance. I'm a pretty good faith listener too and just... wow unbelievable.

[@shadeitplease7383]

Prop is the most annoying guest they have on this show lol. I’ve turned his episodes off before and I absolutely love Robert and this podcast. Prop never adds much to the discussion, a lot of what he does is just repeat what Robert just said with a slight variation in wording with a “you know what I’m sayinnnnn” on the end. Or factually incorrect stuff. I’m still in the beginning of this episode though so we will see how it goes lol. Sometimes I’ll see an episode that I’ve wanted for a while and then it’ll be Prop as the guest and I lose some interest.

[@Coffeemancer]

RED PILL ME ON LAVERNE & SHIRLEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!