British Third Issue 1958 Pattern Web Equipment - Late 1960s to Mid 1990s

Second issue British 1958 Pattern Web Equipment as used from the early 1970s through to the mid1990s. Edit: I have recently noted a pair of the larger ammunition pouches dated 1967 so it would seem these pouches first made an appearance in the late 1960s though the previous two patterns would remain common for a time.
Karkee Web 1958 Pattern page - www.karkeeweb.com/1958main.html
1958 Pattern Instructions for Assembly (1965) - www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/195...

[@tjdstudios.559]

There are a lot of these videos on KZbin however having used 58 pattern in basic training and beyond, I can happily say that you actually know what you are talking about. An excellent video 5*

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thank you! Currently remaking these videos using the mannequins to better show everything.

[@TheLordMarshal]

The poncho roll used to flop up and down on the back of your legs terribly when running in this standard position, some of us used to move it on top of the kidney pouches, it was possible to use the spring clips to fit over the yoke down straps securing it, this way it didn't flap on back of legs and was much easier to run with. Infantry use.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed so! I covered this method of carrying the roll (for NBC kit) in one of my Mannequin of the Month videos.

[@TheLordMarshal]

@@RiflemanMoore Excellent, i will have to try to find that one

[@PreparedPathfinder]

The other problem with the material is that it shrunk when wet. Getting the belt on and getting your waterbottle back in the pouch was a pain when the kit was wet. I've always wondered why they used quick release fasteners throughout the kit (in many places where it wasn't required), yet put that pain in the a**e buckle on the waterbottle pouch. The 'large' pack was absolutely useless, hence the widespread use of civilian bergens used in the Falklands, alongside SAS/Para bergens. The kidney pouches were pretty crap too, especially the over complicated method of attachment, which would come undone unless you taped them up. Did you ever make the video on the trials nylon version of 1958 pattern webbing?

[@philbrotherton5720]

I was issued it in 1994 for basic & phase 2. Even after I got some green PLCE, I still used a 58 right hand ammo pouch as it was more useful than the PLCE ammo pouch.

[@danielmalthouse4429]

Good evening. I had 58 pattern in the cadets. 1987. Grade 1.

[@andrewjohnston4127]

I do remember that we had our 58 pattern webbing replaced in 1994,was also glad to get a decent sleeping bag too. Some of the old sweats are still wearing the belts as well

[@RiflemanMoore]

Did you prefer the PLCE? I've seen photos of some younger chaps in MTP with 1958 Pattern belts on, I think new made examples can be bought to be worn in place of the working belt.

[@simonh6371]

@@RiflemanMoore I think those young lads were just trying to look like old sweats by wearing old kit if they could get away with it. Just the same as we used to ''acquire'' old KF shirts (shirt hairy) and wear them to look like old sweats until we got pulled up about it, even though in reality these shirts were less comfortable and practical, although they were easier to iron lol.

[@PaddyInf]

@@simonh6371 You still see lots of young officers wearing them. It's just a fashion statement to try to look like the old and bold. Never mind that it was last issued before some of them were born!

[@marklloyd4087]

Soon as the kit got wet it was crap, holes in it because it was so old., I remember getting mine in lippstadt West Germany, the Q issued me two left ammunition pouches also, trying to get your NBC kit Into a bum roll that was meant for your groundsheet, tight fisted government!!!!!!, only time I was issued descant kit was for the first Gulf War, so envious when I see the equipment the armed forces have now, and rightly so. I would like to meet up with Frank from the recruitment army video and smack him in his lying mouth!!!! 😂 😂 😂 🇬🇧

[@marklloyd4087]

@@PaddyInf That never changes, the Ruperts in my regiment were the same 🤔 WANKERS.

[@christopherrichardson7001]

Dude you should do a video on all the kit stored in the webbing and what the extra straps and clips were used for :)

[@RiflemanMoore]

Indeed, that's a massive subject though as it varies a fair bit based on time period and operations.

[@simonh6371]

In late 80s/early 90s: in ammo pouches - magazines for SLR and cleaning kit, in energa tube-shaped pouch on side of ammo pouch a tube of cam cream (own purchase)...in water bottle pouch - water bottle and mug...in kidney pouches - mess tins containing hexi stove and brew kit plus rations when issued, boot brush and polish, washing/shaving kit (minimalist), cut off piece of towel (complete towels were too big to fit in), and a change of socks...in bum roll either NBC suit or poncho, both together was impossible. Also quite common was to tape a field dressing on webbing yoke at front at shoulder height, on the non-firing shoulder i.e. left for right handers.

[@RiflemanMoore]

@Cmndr Roy Fokker Could you email me some photos?

[@DavidWhelbourn]

@@simonh6371 We put mess tins and hexi stoff, brew kit was basically a couple of teabags and sugar. The NBC suit also in Kidney pouches and poncho in the bumroll. Totally agree with the cut down towel and washing and shaving kit and the shell dressing taped to yoke front shoulder (depending on whether you were kack-handed or not)

[@lenniet]

I can still smell it now!

[@A.ikiadis1264]

thanks the really helped with my set

[@mickwful]

I wonder why they still put the enurga pouch on the right ammo pouch.I know it became knowen as the KfS pouch, I think they stopped issueing the Enurga grenade in about 69.

[@flatmoon6359]

After basic moved poncho carrier above kidney pouch, much hassle from senior ranks. R Signals didn't want to do anything different. After some time with Light Infantry got most of people to change. Well they do it like this, it's more comfortable. The chance of getting anything changed was difficult,why change, my grandad did it this way attitude.

[@johnroberts1347]

We used to get really big paraffin wax candles and rub them into the material,heat it with hot air gun,(hair dryer),as as waterproof.Worked reasonable well.Still used issue German Bergan if allowed,easy to dump,no clips to mess with.

[@100mmtubeofjustice7]

I for one have to admit I like the kidney pouches, I do have a question tho, have you ever done a vid on the South African webbing? say from the early to mid 70's?

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yeah, I think the kidney pouches are a decent part of the design though they were of course often replaced later in use with a string of waterbottle pouches. I would love to do a video on South African webbing but I don't have any. There are videos on youtube on the South African 1961 Pattern and 1970 Pattern equipment sets.

[@100mmtubeofjustice7]

ok ,thanks, I was just wondering as a buddy just got a bundle of the SA gear and he asked me how to put it together, and i didn't have clue, lol. I do know those lads carried a ton of kit.

[@thomasmusso1147]

@@100mmtubeofjustice7 Yep .. and during the Bush War, Water Bottles .. more than one can imagine.

[@muwuny]

Where would the bayonet be attached on the 4th issue pattern which has the bayonet frog removed? Also, is there a size chart for the list of 58 pattern belt sizes?

[@RiflemanMoore]

The bayonet question is a good one, in answer I don't think there was an official method of carriage. I believe the question regarding belts may be answered in another reply on a more recent video!

[@DavidWhelbourn]

The bayonet frog was built into one of the Ammo pouches I seem to remember remember

[@dariuszgyukin774]

Hey I really enjoy your content. But I have a question. I recently ordered a Pattern 58 Fidld Pack, they are quite rare here in Germany. Would it be possible to wear the bag with the yoke like a typical rucksack for casual use? I really like the way they look.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Not really, you would at least need the belt and a pair of brace attachments as well really.

[@paddy864]

@@RiflemanMoore That was one of the main problems the the '58 Patt. pack, you could really only use it with the yoke which limited it's usefulness . I hated it myself, couldn't believe that something so inherently useless could actually be issued, I'd have preferred a 1908 pattern pack actually. I was told the the 58 pack was designed so that it could be easily stowed in an APC, Saladin or FV 432, which makes sense in one way because it was utterly useless for anything else.

[@DavidWhelbourn]

I added a couple of clip on straps to my 58 Pat back pack. works ok, although they are far apart.

[@gorblimeyguv]

The 3rd issue ammunition pouches were certainly in existence by 1966 as I have a pair with that date. I don't recall ever seeing any dated earlier. Do you know when the 3rd issue waterbottle pouch was introduced? Was it included in the 1965 fitting instructions? If so, the 2nd issue must have been very shortlived.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Good to know, thanks for the info on the ammunition pouches. As for the water bottle pouches I'm only aware of 1st and 2nd issue; that with the turn lock and that with the strap and buckle.

[@gorblimeyguv]

@@RiflemanMoore Sorry to be ambiguous, I was counting the 44 pattern as 1st issue. I meant the final pattern with the buckle fastening.

[@Ks-zv6js]

I know that at cadets we still have these in the store cupboards but we use it only if we have to it’s been painted with spray paint to match the mtp we use but it’s in very bad condition

[@men5crumm]

My detachment only has those rubbish cadet training vests

[@simonsignolet5632]

There are some 4th issue Amm Pouches. These were as 3rd issue but manufactured WITHOUT the bayonet "frog" and Energa Grenade Attachment pouch. Circa 1989/1990, made by "OWL" or Compton Web Ltd. I think because the removed features were not compatible with SA80 and MoD knew that the roll-out of PLCE would take a few years. Everyone received SA80 just prior to their issue of PLCE with lower priority issue units having SA80 with '58 webbing for a few years.

[@RiflemanMoore]

It's rather strange it took so long for the Energa pouch to disappear really!

[@davehopkin9502]

Because it was used for the Blank Firing Attachment for the SLR (or Mars Bars).......

[@RiflemanMoore]

Oh indeed so but I wouldn't expect the MoD to consider that when changing a specification (the Mars bars that is!)

[@TonyBelas]

it was universally krown as the KFS (knife, fork & spoon) pouch in my unit. It wasnt until much later that I heard the term Energa pouch.!

[@jelkel25]

I got a set of 58 pat in an auction sold as east European copies. I paid my £10 for it out of curiosity. I think it's partly a "Silverman's Special" which were various (usually Indian made) copies along with some mag pouches from somewhere else. Did a Warsaw Pact country copy DPM?

[@RiflemanMoore]

I think Bulgaria has a version of DPM...

[@jelkel25]

@@RiflemanMoore I meant 58pat. Must have just finished something to do with DPM before I commented.

[@bloggs692413]

still got scars on my lower back from tabbing with that shit

[@davehopkin9502]

The data ranges are always going to be woolly, existing stocks of an older pattern would still have been issued, how long those stocks would last would vary by unit, also older pattern kit already issued would carry on being used until replaced by the individual going to change it out

[@RiflemanMoore]

Definitely, I've seen one clear example of a chap in the RCT still using one of the smaller first issue ammunition pouches in the 1980s with his SMG mags jammed into it. What I tried to go for were dates when the newer patterns became widespread issue, if I'd thought further at the start I might have done it differently.

[@borninthewoods4482]

Do you have the original canvas respirator haversack?

[@RiflemanMoore]

I do yes, see my recent British vs. NVA video.

[@borninthewoods4482]

@Rifleman Moore I have one myself, I was just curious to why it wasn't in this video

[@RiflemanMoore]

It isn't part of the 1958 Pattern Web Equipment.

[@DavidWhelbourn]

I have a nylon one. Used it to carry rubber bullets for the greener gun in NI tours. Took up a lot of space on the belt (cut the strap off to use a rifle strap for NI so you could attach the SLR to your wrist).

[@DavidWhelbourn]

I can still remember the smell when wet.....

[@oscarpotts763]

Great video! I recently picked up a set. It's great aside from a damp, musty smell that I can't seem to shake. It's quite hard to be in the same room as it it's that bad. Any ideas on how to make it smell nicer?

[@DavidWhelbourn]

Wash it and stick in a couple of bounce fragrance sheets

[@wingaard]

58 pattern was awful, particularly if it was 2nd hand issue. We were allowed some customisation fortunately. The water bottle pouch went straight away for 2 x '44 pattern pouches. I also used 2 x '44 ammo pouches (with a higher and lower belt loop on the back- no hooks!) in place of the kidney pouches- they actually looked pretty similar., just narrower overall to allow for the 2nd bottle. Poncho roll went on top of rear pouches and contained NBC suit. Replaced belt with roll-pin model.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Interesting! Always fascinating to hear of individual customisation of this stuff.

[@wingaard]

The clansman radio came with a pvc handset pouch for vertical strap mount above the ammo pouches. That was proper 'Gucci' kit if you could get one ;-)

[@andyleighton6969]

@@RiflemanMoore Things tend to be unit specific, but certainly in my experience rigging the bum roll over the kidney pouches was universal. Don't ask me exactly how we did it, slept since then!

[@Military_Outposts]

still got mine ....just in case 🙂

[@AndrewJones-bk4sl]

Yup me too

[@steveforster9764]

Try putting it on wet or putting the water bottle away.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Why would I want to do that? We all know it's a pain.

[@dutchcoldwarhistory5036]

It kinda looks like Dutch marine gear from around the 80’s

[@RiflemanMoore]

That's because Dutch Marine kit is a modified copy.

[@DAGO58]

Get this wet and add 3 stone in weight!

[@RiflemanMoore]

Yeah, it took far too long to move to a nylon replacement really.

[@taoistgoth]

That's why the poncho covers everything :)

[@mattattack6717]

One mans kit: goose green

[@RiflemanMoore]

Alas I don't have the para kit to do that yet, I certainly will when I have the kit though.

[@mattattack6717]

Ok one mans kit: Malayan emergency

[@RiflemanMoore]

Can do, what year?

[@mattattack6717]

1959 REME thanks man

[@RiflemanMoore]

REME? Ok will see what I can do, more likely to focus on a front line infantry role to start with however.

[@chrissheppard5068]

Beyond words how much I hated this equipment.

[@JohnnyPrepBushcraft]

They don't make gear like they used to id probably take this over the new British military rubbish they pump out now

[@cuhurun]

Johnny... me too, mate !

[@Kill3rGr1zzly]

This stuff is freaking HORRIBLE. The Brits have a great history of making great kit, but whoever was in charge of this dropped the ball hard, especially coming from the comparatively excellent Pattern 37.

[@simonh6371]

You obviously never had to use the 58 pattern webbing, otherwise you wouldn't say that. I did between 1988 and 1993, the PLCE was introduced just after I left, in 1994. Where to start...firstly 58 ptn was made from canvas and absorbed water rather than being waterproof; the yoke length adjusters at the front generally slipped down so some guys rolled the excess webbing material up and taped it, if they were really warry (nowadays called ally) with DPM tape, but I wore mine quite high up plus I'm not too tall so I used to pass the end of the taps into the metal loops on top of the ammo pouches; onto ammo pouches, actually they were pretty functional although mostly stiff and boxy after decades of use (webbing was never issued new) plus they weren't really designed for Sterling SMG mags which were longer than SLR mags, so you had to be ultra careful not to lose these if issued; water bottle pouch was a nightmare when wet as it shrunk and you would be struggling for a couple of mins to replace the water bottle and mug after taking them out; kidney pouches, no real complaints but they had a weird and complex way of fastening; now the bum roll, this was fine if you only kept your issue poncho in but at the time I served we always had NBC suits including rubber boots on our CEFO (combat equipment fighting order)...which was impossible to squeeze into the bum roll together with the poncho, and a struggle to squeeze in without poncho, so you could either omit the poncho and bungee it on top of kidney pouches or below together with the bum roll, or vice versa, in most cases we rolled up the suit and stuffed it into the two rubber boots to make a sausage, and tied the soles across this with the attached laces. Occasionally you would see someone who had acquired a second buckshee bum roll and put both together to have a fatter roll containing both, but really I only saw this a couple of times. In fact when tabbing I often put the bum roll with noddy suit plus poncho bungeed outside it on top of the kidney pouches, but only if I wasn't carrying large pack, which I'll come to in a minute, or own purchase bergen... the large pack was such a POS that it was rarely used after basic training, all soldiers buying a bergen from a camping shop instead, firstly the large pack didn't have shoulder straps but metal hooks on the end of 6 inch (unadjustable) lengths of webbing which were passed through loops on the front of the yoke and were connected to D rings on the front of the webbing, basically impossible to put on alone unless you take all your webbing off first and even then it was a kerfuffle. On the bottom corners of the large pack there were adjustable webbing straps with clips on the end which were fastened to either the metal loops on top of the ammo pouches or somewhere else. The large packs were small so if you needed a lot of kit you had to strap the sleeping bag on top of it, with your rollmat on the back, or if you were lucky and didn't need too much kit you could stuff the sleeping bag inside the large pack (which basically left you very little space inside) and put the sleeping mat on top...whichever way you did it, when you hit the deck in the prone position, whatever was on top pushed the back of your helmet up and forward over your eyes, which made firing forwards a tad tricky. So basically the large pack was a joke. I should point out that the entire 58 pattern webbing equipment had been designed by seamstresses working for the MOD purely from the point of view of ease of manufacture, and I believe that there was no input from anyone who would actually have to use the thing into it's design. The respirator case, designed to be worn behind the ammo pouch on the side not carrying water bottle, was a great design, waterproof material and a simple belt loop to connect to webbing, however as no other parts of the webbing had this configuration - instead having weird hooks on the back that you had to fit into slits on the belt - putting it on the belt involved removing one of the ammo pouches, very fiddly and difficult to do and replace in under 5 minutes even with years' experience. In my working unit in Germany I sometimes got away with using some 1975 (experimental) pouches, not sure which pouches, which I'd bought in a surplus shop in the UK, instead of kidney pouches. Buying your own kit was the norm back then - everyone bought Norwegian army shirts, £20 or more back then - windproof smocks which were nearer 100 quid then although I got a 60 quid cheapo version, as our DPM smocks were also water absorbent and not really tailored to protect against the elements - as well as Bergens, You may recall also there was a media scandal a few years back about how lads going to Iraq or Afghan were getting their moms to buy them body armour for Xmas, I believe that since then it has become part of issued kit. To put it into perspective, the 58 ptn webbing which I was using well into the 90s had more in common with what my Grandad wore before and during WW2, and what my Dad wore in Suez in 1956, and probably what they wore in the Sudan in the 1890s, than with the PLCE issued from 1994. I envy the modern squaddies for kit like the PLCE, also I understand metal mugs are now standard issue and you can cook all meals in a rat pack and boil water much quicker with those than in mess tins...again we had to spend a small fortune buying metal mugs if we wished, they were £20 or thereabouts in the late 80s so equivalent to more than £50 in today's money. The only bit of kit I don't envy the modern-day squaddies for having is the SA80 lol and I would rather have the SLR - the right arm of the free world as it and the fully auto FN FAL version used to be called - than an SA80 any day of the week.

[@peterwait641]

Have you ever tried running with the large pack on, it bounced around like mad, making you run like you had a few in the NAFFI.The tin lid was just as bad, the spider spike used to bounce into your head. whoever designed these two items had never tested them! When wet the weight seemed to double !

[@473specop]

If you bend the long loop with the oblong ring on the kidney pouch back toward the middle, you can then thread the tab through it (to the second metal ring on the pouch) this stops the lower tab coming out, I would also double the upper tab of the kidney pouch to stop it coming out.

[@RiflemanMoore]

Thanks for the tip!

[@473specop]

One more thing, there is a long loop inside the lid of each kidney pouch, that were you thread the utility strap (can't remember if you mentioned this in this video).

[@RiflemanMoore]

It's something missing from this review, I intend to include them when I re-make these videos to a higher quality.

[@simonh6371]

Or tape them over with masking tape, DPM if you're really warry (ally)