Extrema Ratio Fulcrum S Hard Use Review

[@blueeyeddevil9441]

Love your videos. No tabletop review bullshit. Thank you for actually testing the knives instead of just admiring them.

[@BushCampingTools]

Your comments make me believe this is all worthwhile. Much appreciated!

[@swissmilitischristilxxii3691]

I've heard the Swiss Army is testing the Extrema Ratio Fulcrum, to replace the swiss army baionets made by Wenger and Victorinox for the SIG 550. The french army has a version of the ER Fulcrum if I remember well. I have an ER Col Moschin and an ER Doberman. They're great and the Böhler 690 is a good steel, but these knives are a little bit overpriced.

[@BushCampingTools]

Yes a lot of people say that about their knives and it's difficult to say otherwise. However, i guess their market is a lot of government contracts, of which we pay (LOL) as tax payers LOL, or get issued if u happen to be enlisted in whatever forces are buying them. (although ER like many are also now producing knives for the consumer market of kitchen ware). I like my Dobermann IV very much BTW. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@JaxBarrowTRUCide]

@Swiss Militis Christi LXXII The french Army haven't any version of Fulcrum. We have Eickorn SG 2000 WC-F (in delivering with the HK416F) and the old Famas bayonet ( no Extrema Ratio ). But the GIGN have ER Glauca B1.

[@BushCampingTools]

@@JaxBarrowTRUCide Thanks for letting us know this info!

[@robsteel4407]

This knife is so strong!! I think, You're one of the best bushcrafter I seen! 🔝🔝🔝

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi LOL, you bet it is! If ER saw all the stuff I have since with it and it's still in one piece! Thanks for the kind words and for watching!

[@KevinMorrishow]

@@BushCampingTools OK, HERE’S THE DEAL. HOW CAN I PURCHASE A USED EXTREMA RATIO FULCRUM FOR $150. I GREW UP IN A POOR FAMILY, “ I’M USED TO “ HAND-ME-DOWNS “.

[@BushCampingTools]

@@KevinMorrishow LOL, get on those knife forums mate, even some "covertish" ones on fb, u'll find one for sure! However, I'm afraid, my one has now racked up too many adventures to part with it LOL! Thanks for watching! Seriously try the extrema fb group.

[@KevinMorrishow]

@@BushCampingTools What’s the address for the knife forums ?

[@BushCampingTools]

@@KevinMorrishow try this one: facebook.com/groups/28885349959

[@Ivan-01]

Great video! I have just bought the Extrema Ratio Col Moschin, my first knife of this brand. I Hope that you'll make a video about the Col Moschin too. Greetings from Italy

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi thanks! I don't have that model yet but am thinking about it!

[@wizard9403]

@@BushCampingTools Could you tell me if the ER knives are ground with a convex edge???

[@BushCampingTools]

@@wizard9403 Hi, since they are hand sharpened in a particular manner, if you examine the edges of their knives (with a magnifying lens) they are not a dead flat bevel and slightly curved as in convex. I keep mine sharp with techniques used for a convex edge. Their really thick blades such as the ONTOS, one can really see the pronounced convex edge. Of course one can hand sharpen and also obtain a flat bevel cutting edge (as can be seen in the MANLY factory tour video)- depends upon what machinery is being utilized (flexible belts Vs Diamond grinders) in the process- of course this is irrelevant for most of us, unless we actually possess similar equipment. Hope that helps.

[@wizard9403]

@@BushCampingTools Thanks so much for the quick response, greatly appreciate it!!

[@maxwell2.2]

Hey i also buying consider the col moschin. I do wonder about the stability of the tip. Maybe you can help me. Do you think the tip could handle some abuse?

[@davidrogers182]

I enjoy your reviews! Logical, realistic reviews. Thank you, Dr Dave

[@BushCampingTools]

Hello Dr Dave! Thanks very much for your kind comments, they are much appreciated, that's for sure and makes my efforts worthwhile. Glad you enjoy my channel.

[@Not_Evil_]

I just love the edge on this so much damn

[@dazzpol]

Another great informative video. I've recently acquired the full sized model. Very versatile blade. For general use as shown in your video I think the 'S' model is a better choice, the full version is longer and due to this there is a lot of leverage to deal with when cutting/slicing near the tip. The top guard can interfere with grip styles when trying to choke up a bit to counter the leverage issue. Minor point I know but worth considering if the knife is being purchased as a general outdoor blade. If I had the choice I'd go for the model you're using over my full size. Simply for manageability really.

[@BushCampingTools]

+Darren Turner Hi Darren, thanks for your comments. Yeah I did think a bit about the length of the Fulcrum Vs the Fulcrum S as you say a better for general purpose but then again I wouldn't be complaining if I had only the Fulcrum with me LOL! You are spot on with your observations. Thanks for watching!

[@BushCampingTools]

+Darren Turner You know Darren, I'm not sure why ER dropped one of their early models, identical to the Fulcrum but minus the upper guard, I think it was their K9?, this knife didn't get the publicity it deserved and would be even more practical I feel. I did see one for sale brand new in Spain once............

[@dazzpol]

+Bush Camping Tools it looked a capable knife. I've got my eye on the T4000S. that looks like a good all around outdoor knife.

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi there. Yes the T4000S looks pretty nice and I think it would be ok for sure if I just think of the stuff i could do with a "larger" version than my T4000C, yes definitely. One thing I want to show in a video about "Tanto" styled tips is that if you have to cut something out of your reach, say for example in a tree (edible fungi-there are many here like this-Bee's nest for honey- or even (i've done this one) coconuts; then strapping a tanto styled blade to a long pole is good for push cutting these objects, as more force can be obtained rather than trying to swing alternatively styles blades at the same object when strapped to a long pole. OR even cutting out sheets foot fungi for fire tinder as climbing the trees (which are often dead and deceptively weak) unnecessarily is just asking for trouble if you happen to fall (excluding all those who are confident at climbing un roped over 10m or more LOL).

[@valterkurtz8800]

Great video, great knife. From Italy, have a nice day!

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi thanks, yes totally agree! I love Italian knives. My Fulcrum gets bashed about most days as a real work horse. Thanks for commenting and watching glad you like my videos!

[@alexstone1808]

...Thanks for the video. I decided to buy a couple. A Extrema Ratio Fulcrum and Fulcrum "S"

[@BushCampingTools]

XLNT! Yeah I must get a reg Fulcrum too at some point!

[@kevmorris4806]

@@BushCampingTools Thanks, thumbs up on your reviews.

[@BushCampingTools]

@@kevmorris4806 Thanks heaps! Much appreciated! Spread the word LOL!

[@BushCampingTools]

@@kevmorris4806 many thanks!

[@alexstone1808]

@@BushCampingTools A Fulcrum S was auctioned on ebay for $90 dollars a week later it sold for $189.00 dollars.

[@andrashavas]

Now that I watched the video six years on, I still think this knife is great. Looking at the surroundings, who would have thought that Covid-19 would spread across the world, changing everything... Interestingly now that winter is coming to an end, it seems like good old nature is the same, sun is shining, summer is coming, flowers booming. And yet, humanity is on the brink of strife with Ukraine in the picture. Nature does not care, nature is. Just like a zen buddhist sitting, meditating. Nature will always be there and it is only us humans, who fail to recognize the beauty and look instead towards war of words. I would recommend that all those stressed up should take a walk in a nice countryside and try to appreciate the wonders nature has to offer.

[@BushCampingTools]

BTW boot video is now live mate!

[@BushCampingTools]

LOL! Thanks for watching!

[@andrashavas]

@@BushCampingTools Thank you!

[@andrashavas]

Just bought a Fulcrum S desert based on this great review! Interestingly, it is feeling smaller than anticipated, with the handle looking thin at first, roughly 15-20%! Somehow I thought the handle would be larger than that of Shrapnel (which was smaller than anticipated also). Interestingly this is about 2 cm longer than the ER MPC. Maybe I was thinking of an big ER Harpoon... ( This is my first regular fixed blade ER after the Shrapnel..) It is hard to see the ratios in any video, so I think the spider in your pictures is not big enough for comparison! Get a standard 30 cm size tarantula and put the knife on its jaws! LOL! Nonetheless its a great looking great knife with strength, design, and credentials. Now I must rely on you for further testing because I would not touch the pristine crazy sharp edge.... :) Keep up the good work!

[@BushCampingTools]

+Andras Havas Hi Andras glad you are liking this knife! Don't worry i'll be beating mine up again soon and hopefully making some more videos with it! As always thanks for sticking with my channel Yes I should get some much bigger spiders LOL!

[@F3EDER]

Got a full size one myself and it is one impressive knife!

[@BushCampingTools]

TOO RIGHT GOOD ONE!

[@micheleb.00]

this one man is one of your best review, i loved it! This mixed military survival knife is awesome! Just one question, you also review the Ontos, the military side of the survival knives... Can you explain me the difference between thi two blades? Can you batoning well with fulcrum s?

[@BushCampingTools]

+Michele Bazzani Hi, and firstly thanks for your comments. Ok so both the FulcrumS and the Ontos have flattened regions on the spine that can be used to strike with a piece of wood as a baton for splitting other pieces of wood. I generally don't do this in practice only because I find it unnecessary in the environment (very dry) I'm in. But sometimes, yes. The other thing which many do not realise with the design of these Extrema Ratio knives is that the spine sits ever so slightly above the Forprene grip. What this means is that there less chance to accidentally damage the handle in the event that one strikes the spine in this region, for what ever reason. One of my earlier videos I actually explain the basic physics in batoning (Cudeman 299B vid) and both of these Extrema Ration knives satisfy those requirement, i.e. briefly , sharp blade, create a good wedge in order for the split to propagate into a log/branch etc. Also the Ontos is simply heavier so can, and I have done this, be used as a small hammer., the blade on the Ontos, whilst also a western style tanto, is not straight like the Fulcrum but has a slight curvature to it making it better at cutting tasks. Also not having a guard on the Ontos makes it more comfortable for getting very close with your grip. Both are quite different and I guess that's why Extrema Ratio has labeled the Fulcrum as a multi purpose knife. Put it this way I wouldn't feel it was a problem if I only had the Fulcrum S by my side in the event TSHTF situation. Hope this helps/answers your question.

[@rawphaelelpapi5149]

Great Review! I own a Dobermann 4 and a MK2.1 (both being part of my favourite knives) Now I am thinking of buying the Fulcrum S, but I was wondering if you could also use it as a diving knife. Would you recommend it, knowing that the handle material and N60steel would be in contact with salt water everytime?

[@pat7864]

I would personally go with a spyderco made out of h1 steel, that shit never rusts

[@micheletennis87]

Hello, I saw that you have tested various branded knives Extrema Ratio do you think are worth their price? knife are excellent as they say for durability and resistance to abuse?

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi I think the Dobermann IV is currently their best all round field knife, the Task is the best camp kitchen knife. As to whether any product is "worth it" is totally up to the individuals outlook and of course budget/income. For me the T4000C is a great very useful compact EDC knife too. Hope that helps.

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi, I never on this channel mention price in any video as the cost of any object of desire whether it be a car, boat, camera, or knife etc is totally dependent upon ones disposable or otherwise income or lack of income LOL. The value we place upon things is such a personal choice too. For example, there are many US made knives, which what many would call "expensive" for example but not limited to MEDFORD but to those who love them and or own them, they would argue forever as to their pride and joys possession. All I will say about the knives from ER that I own are that they are well made (my models at least) came deadly sharp, with a good edge, and had functionality for the kinds of applications I pursue in the wilds-some of these thing everyone can view here at BushCampingTools and or read about on the rather infrequent blogs. The only exception was that I modified my FulcrumS by cutting (carefully under water) the upper guard, as this made the knife more functional for my purposes. These knives at present are not made in countries where the labour costs are low (although I have no idea how much an individual knife maker at ER get paid- and whether they are able to pay a mortgage off with their salary). Many people say STRIDER knives are way too expensive too but I have had mine for over 15 years now and it still serves me well. Finally, if I start to compare prices of knives here on this channel then I make the channel just like everyone else's basically. My aim is to continually bring you guys and gals interesting reviews and snippets of BCT and simply let you make the purchasing or no purchase decisions, the latter which is far from me to tell one how to or suggest what they should be spending their money on.

[@pat7864]

Hi from Italy 🇮🇹,first of all i wanted to thank you for this video, i have a copuple of questions, is it a good chopper given it's weight? Second question is it possible to hand sharpen it with diamond sharpening stones and ceramic rods?

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi, thanks for your comments much appreciated. I will answer your last Q first. Yes indeed. I reprofiled mine using just a Falkniven ceramic stone, with a super fine and coarse grade. It was simple but time consuming and the end result was absolutely great. Even if one doesn't reprofile the edge (in my case I made a shallower angle better for outdoor work for me).So yeah diamond and ceramics will be fine. It is an easy knife to maintain in the field and at home. Now as far as a chopper goes, yes you can, there is enough weight towards the tip despite this being the S model however, it is not designed as a chopper but a military knife (cutting fast, strong tip, extremely comfortable, super safe versatile carry and strong simple construction- this latter point, even if one was to loose the fixing bolt-unlikely but if one did then simply tying a bit of cord into the lanyard hole will prevent the handle from coming off the tang- many redundant features built into it). I can chop (within a short time, 3-4 inch diameter green branches (say hazel, pine) and the same sized branches in dead seasoned wood, it takes a little longer. Certainly enough in the latter case to then snap them once partially cut into so as not to waste time and physical effort. Maybe the full sized Fulcrum would perform better if it is a "chopper" you want? But as a dedicated chopper come knife but of course not hatchet, then I'd recommend the FKMD Parus for that sort of work instead.

[@somaloignoto2988]

I personally stop buying American blades trying to get rid of them one by one, can you compare in every aspect extrema ratio knives against American made knives like tops, spartan, cold steel?

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi I will write something about this. Stay tuned!

[@alexstone3822]

Thanks to you, I just bought one.

[@BushCampingTools]

Great! I'm still loving mine!

[@foxythepirate2118]

Could you perhaps review the extrema ratio police III, Great review love the channel. Keep it up mate

[@BushCampingTools]

+Foxy The Pirate Hi, funny u should ask about this knife model, I was only looking at it the other day LOL. I hadn't planned to but that doesn't mean I won't stay tuned and if I do you will be the first to know about it. Thanks for watching!

[@foxythepirate2118]

Bush Camping Tools thanks man, love you're vids

[@ziomudru]

i cant make up my mind between fulcrum S and fulcrum C. Are those extra 4cm length in blade worth the extra weight and volume and money?

[@BushCampingTools]

Ah! The Fulcrum C is the iconic knife model from them from way back and i must admit i saw write ups of this in Knife magazine years ago in Japan, whilst living there. Unfortunately i don't own one. What i can say is that after using my Fulcrum S for dozens and dozens of tasks from Tropical regions of the world to the evergreen forests of the northern hemisphere, it is a solid performer and can handle the opening of coconuts to hacking out fat wood stubs from Nt hemisphere pines! As to the goulash, well it depends upon what priceless adventures u might get out of either one and then all u will be thinking about is what a great time u had and long since forget about any money spent; that's my take on ANY equipment I get- or even worse still if that mega expensive compass one buys ends up saving ones life, it is def worth it. Hope that helps! And thanks for watching!

[@ziomudru]

@@BushCampingTools thank YOU man for the outstanding review and the answer. keep up the good work!

[@BushCampingTools]

@@ziomudru My pleasure!

[@SUPERCUREU1L]

Hi ! Do you plan to review the Ultima Ratio Selvans ?

[@BushCampingTools]

Tacticraft chaine bushcraft Hi as yet I haven't as I feel it's not that different really in applications/usage from the ONTOS which I reviewed extensively. But saying that doesn't mean that I won't. I'd prefer to review it in the jungle if I do. Thanks for watching too!

[@BushCampingTools]

Tacticraft chaine bushcraft BTW I'll be uploading a vid soon on building a shelter in the tropics using the ONTOS again.

[@SUPERCUREU1L]

Bush Camping Tools Thank you for your answer. I will look your video about the Onto. I like your vids. Bye !

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi no probs thanks for saying so I like your stuff too BTW

[@micheleb.00]

+Bush Camping Tools i'm waiting for thi video!!!

[@alexstone3822]

Are you in Australia ?

[@BushCampingTools]

Travelling.

[@RP-oz6jl]

Hi... At first thank you for this nice video I like it much. did you ever been tested the standard ER Fulcrum? I'm thinking about to buy an ER Fulcrum but I'm not sure which one the standard or the S version. My best regards

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi, no I never tested the standard one but some of my viewers here own it and after seeing this video of mine said that they wished they had the Fulcrum S as they thought the Fulcrum was a bit long for outdoor work. That's all I know there regarding that model. Certainly I'm sure the standard would be just a tough as the S model in my video.

[@RP-oz6jl]

Bush Camping Tools Hi. Thank you for your quick reply. I think I will buy the S version. This seems to me to be more universal for outdoor applications. Thank you

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi thanks. Do note that I ended up cutting off the top guard of my Fulcrum S as this suited me better after some years of use. It kind of turned the knife into the old Extrema Ratio K9, which lacked a top guard. I wish they had brought that model back again.

[@RP-oz6jl]

hi. I know the K9. It's basically the same knife like the S Version with a shorter blade and without the top guard. Right now I'm not sure if the standard version with the longer blade have more advantages about the S version. But I think I will try the S version.

[@BushCampingTools]

Yes I understand where you are coming from. Bigger blades can have some advantage depending upon what you will do mostly with a knife. Certainly, I like the S version. It's as you can image very very easy to field maintain.

[@cheekylad9045]

Hi, there are some people out there who say that the edge of the knife touches the bottom of the sheath and that it dulls the knife when unsheathing it, myth or reality?

[@BushCampingTools]

Total myth about this knife. The knife tip does not come anywhere near touching the internal hard plastic liner (which BTW can be easily removed and used without the external high denier nylon). Thanks for watching and commenting! There is nothing to blunt the edge of this knife from the design of the sheath.

[@cheekylad9045]

Bush Camping Tools thanks a lot! Great channel by the way, keep it up!!

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi thanks a lot for saying that!

[@BushCampingTools]

BTW we just got voted number 13 in the Top 50 channels on outdoor stuff on KZbin. Click on the blog spot icon in the header and you can read and see who were the others in the list.

[@cheekylad9045]

Bush Camping Tools will do!

[@turtlewolfpack6061]

Another neat tanto design, too bad they dont make this one non serrated.

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi, yeah, it was made in other "versions" which they for some reason discontinued, a pity as I fee they were good designs but without the right marketing no one knew about them. I actually cut the upper guard of this one of mine so it resembled now their discontinued "K9" model and have found it to be much more functional without the upper guard. It is easy to keep sharpened as the blade is just straight and that means easy to keep sharp in the field too. I've beaten the daylights out of mine LOL since these tests and this model does have a good reputation for being very strong.

[@turtlewolfpack6061]

Bush Camping Tools the only area where a good tanto is at a deficit against other blade designs is skinning large game. The tanto and the khukuri are hands down my two favorite designs. Speaking of khukuris, if you have a minute I posted some pics of my new KHHI Scourge Khukuri on my Google+ account. A head cold has kept me feom really using it yet, but that will come!

[@BushCampingTools]

Yes totally agree there with what u are saying. Tanto's suck a skinning unless you want to be bending your wrists at some crazy angles and putting holes all over the skin LOL but other than that, yeah. And Yes Khukuir's in skilled hands, hell yeah I've seen people making delicate objects to building houses with them LOL. Hope to maybe review in the future. yeah I check it out.

[@bushcraftrex5394]

Greetings from Germany mate...i've been thinking about that knife for some time now. Would you, after 2 years, still recommend it? It's always important for me to not buy knives because of the "i want it now" but to buy those that still make me smile after years of use.

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi, I think this knife is good for prying (which knives are not made for), stabbing (but it's thick and therefore has a lot of resistance-against any material man made or other). It's very strong. It cuts ok but for outdoor stuff there are better models from them. Military wise, it can easily be sharpened by anyone as there are no "curves" in this blade. I cut off the upper guard to make it "better" for me to use for what i do. SOOOOO..... I would not recommend this for outdoor use now. I don't grab it all the time now but of course it can handle the pace. I like my Dobermann IV much much better. It still makes me smile. I wish ER brought back the K9. I don't know if u are military but the FulcrumS and Fulcrum are really made for bashing around, with a sharp edge and tough Tanto tip. I won't reject it outright if I had to take it with me to a deserted island but there are better choices now. What u say re buying knives is a very good point and one many of us should adopt.

[@lowlandloco2010]

amazing knife and great video :)

[@BushCampingTools]

+Rancho Bushcraft holland Thanks. yes this knife is super tough and easy to maintain, serrations. Can used to lever with if necessary. Thanks for watching!

[@johnmoder5306]

Hey! Nice Video as always! What do You think about the serrations in this Model?

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi thanks. Personally I like serrations. These ones are not very deep and whilst alternating, ie shallow/deep grooves, don't have the cutting power of say FKMD's way of putting them on the edges BUT because these are less in height they will take a bigger punishment. If u look at the serrations of that long term knife of mine, the FKMD combat survival knife, these are made like the serrations of a high quality kitchen knife or a high quality rescue knife to quickly cut rope or fibrous material very effectively. But if one was to pound on these then I'm sure they would sustain damage due to the thinness of the cutting edges. The serrations on the Extrema Ratio Fulcrum, I know can handle the abuse, still help cut a lot but if you want cosmic cutting they can not work as well as deeper grooves-it's a physics thing as you are probably aware.

[@johnmoder5306]

@@BushCampingTools Thanks! I think I will try it out. Normally I don't like serrations, but.... lets see ;-) Thanks!

[@BushCampingTools]

@@johnmoder5306 Hi, this is a knife I use a lot. I don't think u would be disappointed. I've blogged extensively about it too. Keep me posted on your thoughts when you get it!

[@johnmoder5306]

@@BushCampingTools Thanks! I will!

[@johnmoder5306]

Bush Camping Tools Hey! Got the Fulcrum C now. I like it. The Serrations are not that deep, so they are more like from a Bread Knife or something. I can imagine them to cut through smaller plastic stuff etc - they are „ok“, nothing more, nothing less I think. I think I would like it more without them.... I pair up knives like this anyway, with a Mora or Spyderco or what ever to have a good cutting knive and a hard use tool, so basically everything can be done. I guess the knife is excactly what is described on the website. Have a nice day and keep up the good Videos!

[@brnobre4301]

👍🏼

[@RAM-002]

Отличный нож. Отличное видео.

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi thanks, really appreciate your comments! It's a great нож!

[@lonebearsurvival375]

were are you from?

[@BushCampingTools]

+Lone Bear Survival I'm an Australian but i'm doing reviews across both hemispheres hence all those different background environments. Some which obviously aren't located in Australia. Thanks for watching

[@lonebearsurvival375]

Austria ! just like your accent ;) aaand for shure your videos.

[@BushCampingTools]

+Lone Bear Survival AUSTRALIA LOL. Thanks for your comments re my videos, I'm glad u like my channel!

[@VicariousReality7]

The tang is almost always the failure point

[@gyllkrans]

VicariousReality7 Doesn't it have a full tang?

[@mustafamikari7438]

That knife 😻

[@BushCampingTools]

Mustafa Mikari It's a classic!

[@zdenekbart]

Hardness has nothing to do with corrosion resistance man.

[@BushCampingTools]

Hi there, the harder any martensitic alloy is the less corrosion resistance it has especially in the case of this stainless steel, N690, this is really important for tool makers using this steel for milling bits when exposed to lubricants (if not using the high temperature feature of N690 for dry milling) etc. Maybe you are confusing this with other types of alloys? The less soluble Chromium , ie in solid solution, the less corrosion resistance, because there is less Cr available more more tied up in carbide formation. Check with the technical documents from Böhler, they will confirm what I say. I once did a project on this and corresponded with the technical department at Böhler in Austria.

[@bromazepam781]

So, basically, if you're lighter than 150 kilos, and you're falling... and you manage to ram this beast into anything and hold onto it, it'll support your weight??? k.

[@BushCampingTools]

LOL, well supposedly they did the original test around the 150kg mark but remember these were essentially static tests not falling dynamic loads, something very different. So a falling weight of around 150kg is going to put a huge load against a blade wedged into a cliff face :)!

[@spacenergy]

Руки из жопы растут, а нож - норм

[@BushCampingTools]

I believe your translation is something like the following; "You are full of shit, the knife is just ordinary"? LOL