80's Goth Wasn't Just About Music

What Is Subculture: • What is Subculture | W...
Homology Hypothesis: • The Value of Music to ...
Siouxsie Interview: • Siouxsie interview 22 ...
Interview with an 80's Goth: • 1980s Goths - Death is...
The Importance of Philosophy to The Batcave: • The Batcave 1983

[@LadyNightsong]

Thanks for making this video in such a well-researched manner. My goth identity isn't simply an indicator of my musical preference, it's a statement that encompasses many other factors such as my philosophical views, rejection of traditional beauty standards, aspects of my sexuality, etc. Music is important to the subculture for many reasons, but it's not the only important factor, which is why I ended up deleting my reaction video to the original topic. This whole debate online has been productive, even if we all didn't all come to the same conclusions. It's given me much to think about, particularly when it comes to the things that I value in my life.

[@jetta.silence6356]

For me the gothic culture is the way I live.The music is most important as it was the beginning for me. Then the movies and t.v shows with a dark goth element such as 90's Dark Shadows. From there music videos and the fashion grew. So from age 13 it started to grow. I was always a very dreamy ,artistic,child. As a teenager romance ,real romantic thoughts used to play in my head like movies and almost bring me to tears it was beautiful. But I think the pinnacle in my life was When i finally got a pair of doc martens and the coolest goth guy in school stopped me, sat me down mare me take them off and showed me how to lace them up properly. It was love. Not with him and I but the acceptance. Being biracial in the community has always been amazing. I dont know if there is a more accepting group. Irs like being home. I never feel pressure to afford the expensive goth brand name clothing its not really me anyway. I will forever be the "thrifted goth". Hmm that should be my youtube channel name.lol.

[@eternalwynter2254]

I am excited that you discuss this! I definitely feel that music for me is the most important but goth has a number of elements. Style for me and many other things are very important. Not just music. I personally would feel naked and like parts of me were missing if I did not have all the elements. I am 36 almost 37 so when I was around 12 and reaching my teenage years I looked up to all these old school 80s goths and found them very beautiful and fascinating. I had discussions, enjoyed music and history but was not sure what goth was yet. I loved punk, post punk and many other things. I was attracted to their styles and statements within their clothing and have been doing DIYs since I was young. You said something once about the ritual of DIY that I really connected with. I feel I was very much fostered by these older goth people and now that I am older I try to pass the torch and education on to younger bats

[@Spicedbites]

Oh my goodness, thank you! Someone on Facebook was arguing with me about this, how music is the ONLY thing about the culture. From what I remember, learning about it when I was younger, it was not the only thing. Music is certainly VERY important, but not the only thing, especially with how the culture keeps evolving.

[@norseczar27]

Yeah Evolving:...,,,,6”you guys are still very elitist. RIVETHEADS we stomp goth culture away

[@Spicedbites]

@@norseczar27 uhhhh.....okay? This comment is like 3 years old bruh.

[@norseczar27]

@@Spicedbites what can u say I’m pathetic I got very few friends and no life lol

[@Spicedbites]

@@norseczar27 uhhhhh...okay whatever floats your boat my dude.

[@bryonhutcheson4407]

You spoke on something that I've been saying all along. Not one of the elements of what makes up the gothic subculture can survive on its own. Even though music is one of the key elements, it is the gothic mindset that becomes the core of it all - without it, none of the others would exist. Thank you for sharing this! This video was very informative and those books you were sharing with us I'm going to check out.

[@littleshebear6413]

Interesting video. To my understanding as a Goth from the early 80s Pips nightclub in Manchester, England (known as Thursdays,with a cave like interior, from 1982) predated the Batcave by four years with Pips having opened in 1978 which played Goth/Alternative music and had/has a large Goth scene with well attended reunions to this day. Batcave had Goth nights on Wednesday meanwhile the Manchester scene had extremely well attended nights every weekend. By the mid 80s there were a number of night clubs in Manchester where Goth music was played five nights each week.

[@jurassicgoth1719]

I saw Bauhaus in Manchester and Salford in 1981 and '82 and that audience generally looked nothing like the 'trad goth' looking people that I remember from the Batcave in 1983 when the fashion had definitely found it's place. There were a lot of people in black, quite a few punks but a lot of people who were in band t-shirts, long macs and jeans who looked more like 'indie kid' students. It was about more than the music but it did feel like it came out of the music. It evolved and it kind of became a tribe...you found people who liked the same kind of art, poetry, literature, films, fashion aesthetic, romanticism and manners, love of cemeteries and what were perceived to be 'dark or occultist' things...it felt like a more intellectual thing than the energy and 'up yours' rebellion of punk. I think the identity is much more than the music but I think it has to have more substance than just the make-up and the look...the music, the gigs, the clubs, the record shops are where we met...how we found 'our people'. I have goth friends who met through becoming penpals from the adds in the music mags like NME or small zines, I have friends who I met at gigs or club nights in the 80's or 90's who you connected with, went to stay with when your favourite bands were playing in their town, then later we met up at places like Whitby goth weekend or other events. Before netgoth and the internet opened the world up the music was the catalyst and the look is what identified us to each other as having commonalities. I agree that it's about philosophy and much more than bands but without the music it wouldn't have brought us together.

[@Homwaway3]

From a teacher's perspective, this type of discourse and discussion about Gothic identity is really quite important and integral. This type of discussion shows the passion that we as a people have for the things that shape and define us, and prevents the culture from dissipating. It shows newer/younger Goths the importance of understanding all the components of the culture and what symbolism they have for how we look. Like you mentioned in the video, and how I feel personally - the connection between the aesthetic (including the music) and its meaning for the person wearing/engaging it/with it is vitally important. I enjoy your explication on this topic because you actually begin to tease out why we feel/felt the way we do/did in within the context of Goth, and go beyond "this is just the way we are". Our identity does not have to be so rigid and strict, but it sure as hell has its determiners and its important to acknowledge them.

[@kevininrb]

"Recently on KZbin there have been a lot of videos... on what role music plays in the subculture..." < This question needs to be asked in the past tense as well as the present. Goth is nearly forty years old now, and 21st Century goth bears marked differences from 20th century goth. In the eighties, there was no internet. Goth sprang out of the club scene, and the "goth" club scene would never even have started if it hadn't been for the music, so the music was the cornerstone around which the entire "goth subculture" grew. There were other aspects, of course, but none of those other aspects were instrumental in starting the movement. The weren't any significant specific associations of people though literature, movies, or art (at least none that I can recall). Even the look was not a fundamental aspect of the scene back then (at least, from my perspective in the LA scene from 1980 though 1990). In the 21st century, the goth community owes much of its existence to online interaction. That seems to have become more fundamental now than the music, so modern goths may not feel any need to identify with (and through) the music, so long as they can interact over the internet and identify with "the look," of goth (or "looks" considering the number of sub-genres now). Technology has had a marked effect on socialization. In the 1980s, it was the music that brought people to join together in the clubs. In the 2010's, it is now the internet and large festivals that bring people together. And in this new environment, appearance becomes more fundamental than musical tastes. Any living culture is dependent upon bringing in new people, and to be relevant to new people, the culture must be malleable enough to adapt to their perspectives and concerns. Goth is no different. It evolves or it becomes archaic. P.S. Thanks for giving a nod to the Screamers and Nervous Gender. There are many aspects of the early LA scene that are both overlooked and unrecognized. LA was more than just 45 Grave and Christian Death; there was the Gun Club, the Flesheaters, Castration Squad, Sexsick, Monitor, Mnemonic Devices, Johanna Went, and many others).

[@CemeteryConfessions]

I generally agree, I have talked with goths who were in scenes around the world in the 80's and some noted that having been well read or in touch with various artistic movements, or having a painstakingly crafted appearance, were vital to their communal interactions, and some who have said it really wasn't that important. That said, I agree without the music element what we know as goth would either have never came to be, or been radically different.

[@cacaubmad]

First and foremost: I will have a hard time expressing my point of view here, as I always feel "dumbed down" whenever I have to express my ideas in this language so foreign (although familiar) to me. With that in mind: I'm so glad with this video, mostly because I agree so much with the homology hypothesis (a little before watching your video I was arguing a similar thing with some close friends: goth is made up of a lot of elements and none are goth in itself but goth would not be goth if you take any of them away. ) Cause another question I often see made to goth youtubers is "can I be goth without the fashion?" - and I don't see it being taken as something controversial. Most people answer "if you listen to the music, then yes" - and I always find that odd, because goth has this element of otherness and not presenting that in your aesthetic takes a bit away out of that element, I feel. And I don't mean not being able to dress goth or not being able to dress to the 9s all the time or anything like that - but having 0 interesting in the fashion. I don't dress goth all the time but I always relish on the opportunities I have. And I don't dress or have makeup mainly inspired by the 80's, but I love enhancing the dark circles beneath my eyes with bright shadow and glitter, make my eyelids look dark, my eyes hollow. I always had dark circles and a melancholic disposition as a child, both shunned by the society I was raised in, especially when you consider how bright and warm we brazilians are supposed to be. Whenever I paint my face and make them center and focus of my look (which is not something I do all the time, but that I try to do or incorporate often) I feel the relief of denying or playing with the mandatory desireability of women, of embacing the feelings that more and more our ultra-positive society refuses, of accepting the broken and painful aspects of life and even sort of denouncing a society that denies us sleep and rest, but demands of us total focus, concentration and health. And of course I don't think of that every time I put that eyeshadow brush under my eyes, but those ideas pushed me to decide to go for this look in the first place. I love wearing clothes that challange how women are supposed to deal with their bodies or sexuality. This is not a constant thought on my mind, but this is present in an intent behind the aesthetic that I choose to present. And I can't detach this from the goth subculture, I can't detach it from the feeling and thoughts the music brings, I can't detach it of how it enables me to do all those things, how it sorta directs the question my expression makes, if this phrase makes any sense. Having 0 interest in causing a certain kind of disturbance or of expressing a sort of otherness and still being a part of the subculture seems odd to me unless the person expresses that in some other way, through paintings, poetry, etc. of course. But what I feel is that a lot of time the aesthetic is painted as secondary because of our society tendency to label fashion and style as superficial and lacking of meaning. Everything of in the realm of the appearence is often denied of depth - but that ain't true and subcultures are a main sign of that for me. So when we just go "yeah, yeah, fashion is totally disposable if you listen to the music" instead of discussing goth aestethics and fashion's place and relationship to it I feel we are just reinforcing something that dilutes what goth brings to the table. Finally, a lot of time I see goth defined as a sort of feeling or mood. Actually, not only goth, but other identities are often reduced to a feeling. Identity, at least for me and for the psychological theories I subscribe to (I am a psychologist after all) is way more than a feeling, it is constructed through our interactions with culture and society and the meanings it produces. It is made up of a lot of parts, roles... We are many things at once. Ugh, sorry for the huge ass comment. And sorry it probably has tons of confusing bits and language mistakes. I dunno, this discussion is just something that interests me.

[@cacaubmad]

I know I already wrote a bit too much, but I wanted to add a couple things: - I feel it is really hard to decide for a core setting stone for the goth subculture as they are all entwined. The philosophy being core to the music, both being core to the aesthetic and that being core to them both too. They constructed each mutually and none can be taken away. - I feel DIY is quite important to the subculture, that it has, as you placed in another video, a ritualistic aspect to it. It also has meaning. Ok, I swear I'll be quiet now, haha

[@CemeteryConfessions]

This was beautifully written! I don't have anything to add to this, but I completely agree, thank you for taking the time to comment.

[@cacaubmad]

Thank you : ) I'm very glad I was able to convey my thoughts, that they managed to make sense and that they were able to add to the discussion, haha!

[@GremlinSpike69]

And speaking as a Goth of color, so much of our identity is predetermined, so much is written on our skin and in our families. The power of the Goth identity for us is that it is the identity that we choose. The family we choose. The lifestyle and, yes, ultimately, the music as well. Love your indepth, respectful analyses of these topics. I tried to find one of my articles on fashion and identity, using Kaja Silverman and Elizabeth Wilson's work on gender, fashion and identity. The original title of which, was not unironically "Depeche Mode Ate my balls."

[@NightWarriorsStar]

This is what I had been saying saying. I was told to do my research by so many 90s goth, and when I did and told them what you had said they tried to invalidate it. They forgot what it meant to be goth. I was always preached to to listen to 'older goths' by the 90's goths who claimed to be 'older goths' because 'knowledge is power'. But they them self aren't listening to the actual older goths (the 80's goth) it doesn't matter what reason you are in it for, as long as you are partaking in the subculture you are goth. It's a substructure that is all about not conforming to ideals of others for the sake of your love for the gothic, so why are they making baby bats conform to their ideals. As I told 90's goths before. It's more than just the aesthetic and music. It's a identity and a way of living. It's appreciating what's the subculture is so much to the point where you want to incorporate it into your life. Just a little disclaimer I know that not all 90's goths are not like this, I just see a good amount of them just saying it's the music that makes some one goth and not the fact that they are partaking in the subculture.

[@andi80s]

hi daniel! i totally agree with you - music was the core but was supported by all the other elements. based on my research, goth was a lifestyle, not a music genre. goth encompassed all elements of life from clothes to movies, attitude to artistic endeavors - there was little room for much else. and i'm so glad you mentioned bowie. ;) Your argument is very close to what I lecture about, great stuff. thanks for the shout out, too!

[@louisvalentino43]

I have always given my Goth fashion meaning and depth 💀.

[@SPAWNSY]

Definitely. Goth is a culture, consisting of various forms of art. It's a very intuitive and very deeply felt thing. My thoughts; the music is a big part, as well, and the beauty of it all, is that we have a variety of sub-genres, to choose from. And, of course, one does not necessarily need to only listen to Goth music, to be Goth. I do have a question, though, because I just came across this, in the comments, below and thought it was interesting. What is your take on those who listen to only a few, select songs, in these Goth music genres. Can they be considered, at the very least a "Baby-Bat"? (excuse the awkward quotations, I personally don't use that term, but it is used to refer a new-comer to the scene). Great video, as always. Cheers!

[@BigBrotherGORE2]

I'm way late to the party but this is great. Thank you for sharing this.

[@BigBrotherGORE2]

Okay. Let me expand. I felt bad that I wrote an "okay' response to an essay with a presentation. So. With me being so new to what actually is goth and not just aware of the aesthetic. This helps me to not understand that I was always right that goth is more than just the music but the music is paramount to Goth. I've been actually getting into the music of it over the last few years and honestly. It's been such a great journey. I'm discovering new bands and new to me bands (bands that have been around for ages and I haven't known about them). I've joined several goth groups on different social media platforms and sharing music, memes, and articles that I've run into either through a search or just what's been on my discover google feed. Content like this makes me very happy and I feel encouraged to continue on this path. I may only be a 30-something-year-old baby bat, but honestly. It's the most fun I've had in the last few years.

[@pcaetano7527]

one of the cool thing about the Re/Search book magazine is they always listed the interview subjects recommended books.

[@AzyBats]

I really appreciate all the specific examples of philosophical influences you gave. Videos like this are exactly the sort of thing I want. I enjoy learning more about the why and how the goth amalgam formed and persisted instead of "this is all you need to know" photo or song dumps

[@agresticumbra]

A rambling post before I head out to run errands. For someone who deems herself dark, but not Goth, I appreciate this. I'm creeping up on the mid-century mark, and seeing the debates and cutting remarks here & there over what quantifies subgenres, in this case Goth, I can become discouraged by the rifts between generations and regions on this subject. It would be wonderful to see this minimize. It's not horrible but I've seen the destructiveness that comes from non-face-to-face dialog that the Internet can cultivate. As a teen in the eighties growing up in the southern Midwest, about thirty miles outside of a major city, most of my closest social circle listened to new wave, other post-punk, punk, metal, or paisley park. My main preference was space-ambient and other ambient art, such as what was created by Brian Eno, Ray Lynch, Jean Michel Jarre, which was directly due to the music I was exposed to in grade school on a field trip to the local planetarium. Not much was available on vinyl or tape where I grew up, so I listened to mostly radio music, so lots of pop, rock, funk, urban contemporary (love the Philadelphia sound!), metal, funk. Discovering Hearts of Space, Musical Starstreams, and Echoes radio programs in the late eighties was a real godsend. Anyway, before then, my high school boyfriend would go to shows of Echo & the Bunnymen, Skinny Puppy, The Cure, and others, but I was never with him, so I wasn't exposed. It was interesting to "rediscover" the Goth community later on as an adult, and observing the mix of individuals. The vast majority of them were quite philosophical, had a deep interest in various historical subjects, cared for society, and were very much live and let live. My husband, who is not dark, counterculture or avant garde at all, felt comfortable amongst them when he'd join me for a night out. I still felt like an outsider, but that's mainly due to my strong loner traits, and not due to the folks around me. One evening when the DJ had requested we bring an album to play, what I shared seemed to catch them all off guard. It was the soundtrack to the scienc fiction classic, Forbidden Planet, which was composed Bebe & Louis Barron. The DJ truly amused me when he turned to me and observed, "That's spooky." As I said, I am identified as goth sometimes, but truth be told, I'm more often called hippy or earth crunchy, but I'm really neither. People seem to have a desire to categorize when it's kinda unnecessary. A vestige of our tribal natures, I assume. I think, like many contemporaries I've conversed with who are more or less social rejects like myself, aren't keen on labels. Labels seem to distract from the inclusiveness of other fringy individuals who just want to find kindred souls, even if we don't look alike, nor are drawn to the same things. Okay, guess that's it for now. Again, thanks for discussing this history. m.kzbin.info/aero/PLRLCwrdOigtm7KXEfoL7zJCE3EyJ0_ijV

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Thank you so much for your story!

[@agresticumbra]

You're welcome. I appreciate your efforts in citing other sources to back up your observations, and I watched them all. The picture they presented as a whole were compelling, and had to share a bit of myself in exchange. Hope that makes sense.

[@ShedonistaShamanatrix]

Fantastic Planet! So awesome, so Dalí. and so much more!❤️

[@TheShadowstar33]

Count, thank you for the exceptionally erudite, and well-constructed discussion. I really appreciate all the links and resources. Brilliant content!

[@MoriDarkmoss]

I love both Cabaret Voltaire and the Dada movement. another great episode ! also a big fan of Xmal Deutschland and many other things you mentioned (relating to these bands and not) made sense.

[@592Rocker]

I have nothing intellectual to say, but THANK. YOU.

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

I thought its a good start for outsiders🙂

[@vampireleniore]

Yeah. I've seen a lot of people say goth is just about the music (or just about the fashion). To me, it is very well-rounded in that it has a hand in most aspects of my identity and what I love. Music, fashion, philosophy, film, literature, etc. It's just wonderful.

[@TrevorParkerTheKiltedGoth]

Yip I can go with that. Put over more deeply than when i try to get it over in my way , And I know many older Goths see that description in The Origin of Goth.

[@gothicallyyoursprofessorm.7222]

I listened very carefully to this talk, I would find it to be very academic. You are correct in saying that there's many layers and components that make up the world of goth, and not just music. (I would love to know where you got that shirt your wearing. I seriously want one) art, architecture, music, literature, movies and music are the components that make up the gothic world. Sincerely, Professor M.

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

Im not goth, but I like the music and all that. Its OK to be part of the scene and not self identify as one 🙂

[@Franky566]

"im goth." "whats your favorite Poe poem?" "my what?" "POSER!"

[@alexialucia3427]

You remember me to Ian Astbury look from SDC and the Cult appearance

[@jessiemeowser]

Killing an Arab is based on The Stranger by Albert Camus (Kah-Moo). I’m enjoying binging you feed today. I love your thoughtfulness and it’s clear you’re an insider.

[@rickonnye2001]

great well informed video thanks 👍👍👍

[@PrincessNinja007]

What has me going about hardline clinging to it being about the music is how often the music is "this specific list of musicians from the 80's and only the modern bands that sound like them" which is such a shallow definition of what it's ever meant to be goth. Most frustrating is that it seems to come from the same people who complain that goth is "more than just an aesthetic" but then define the entire subculture by the adherence to a single musical aesthetic.

[@PrincessNinja007]

And to expound on making it more fragile, I've seen groups and spaces that spend more energy defining what isn't really goth than they do actually appreciating the few things that pass for them. Every time, I find myself thinking this is exactly how *not* to pass down a culture, especially one built on subverting the status quo

[@fredcalabrese6066]

I was born in 1968. The mainstream culture of the Reagan-Thatcher years was a revival of the blind conformity of the 1950s.

[@sagesdream]

Thanks for talking about the topic from this side of things. Although I do pretty much agree with what you have said on this subculture and the recent topics. That being said I can see why people are more prone to call themselves goth instead of darkly inclined but don't technically fit into what the subculture means. Because of points made in this video for example. So should there be a term that exists somewhere in the middle of both of them and it could possibly be something that people consider themselves more leaning towards "goth" or for potential newcomers could use when they are exploring the meaning of being apart of subculture, trying out the taste in the different types of music and others in the subculture wouldn't automatically reject them as not goth before they made the decision for themselves. Maybe gothicly inclined would be okay? Thoughts? & opinions?

[@justgween7573]

books_teacups crystals ...how about the term "Goth Lodgers"? They're not visiting Goth (that implies they mean to leave the subculture eventually if not soon), and they aren't exactly members of the (Bau)house, they're lodging there for awhile until they figure out if living in the haunted mansion known as Goth is what's right for them. Eh?

[@grimsong2237]

I must disagree with certain claims in this video. However, I will state that I do agree with the stance that 80's Goth wasn't just about the music. I also appreciate the manner in which CC expresses himself. I think the flaw in the traditional conformist hypothesis that is Homology is that it puts the cart before the horse. The mindset is the core of Goth identity and the music cannot be created, nor the different genre's of Goth music be bound, without it. For instance in the 1940's there was a group of people that found it fashionable to dress eccentricly in black, who purposely tore or weathered their clothing with artistic stylistic purpose, and wore their hair in a way that newspapers of the time would call "the drowned victim" hairstyle. These eccentrics could often be found in coffeehouses talking about the meaninglessness of life or dancing at nightclubs till dawn would scatter them away like vampiric ashes in the wind. These people were philosophers or to be more accurate Existentialist. The Existential movement flourished after world war 2. The Nazi's tried to oppress Existentialism because it advocated not living in as existentialist Jean-Paul Sarte would say, in "bad faith". Which essentially means not living in a way that is not authentic or passionate to who you were. If your gay then be gay, you want to be a musician then be one, want to quit your accounting job and be a fisherman then do that, want to wear androgynous green clothing every day then do it, etc etc. Existentialism smashes apart ideas of conformity for conformities sake and asserts that you are free to choose and express yourself as you see fit. Existentialist often spoken venomously against commercialization because they felt that advertisement crossed the line from asking consumers to consider their wares and instead brainwashed people into abandoning who they really are by buying things they don't really want or need because someone else indoctrinated them into it. Existentialism would go on to very clearly influence the punk movement as you can clearly find traditional punk songs with lyrics referencing Existential works. So to would the Post-Punk movement that would become the Goth subculture be influenced. The lead singer of Joy Division was famously known to have bookshelves full of existentialist essays, novels, etc and its clear that this existentialist mindset shows up in much of their work. As stated in this video Robert Smith of the Cure is heavily influenced by Existentialist literature, to the point of writing songs about it. The father of Existentialism Jean-Paul Sarte famously rejected awards and accolades, and on his deathbed refused the offer of being buried in Frances national cemetery. He always claimed that the titles and trinkets others would offer him would only lead him off the road to self authenticity and into living in bad faith into other peoples expectations. I would theorize that this is why so many early Goth bands rejected and to this day reject the Goth label. Even Bauhaus rejected boxing in identity and expression. The Bauhaus band name was chosen because of what the Bauhaus art movement represented. The Nazi's notoriously hated the Bauhaus art movement. Its no surprise that the Bauhaus band would choose a title that is a middle finger to tyrants of conformity and forced identity. Now combine this expressive mentality with centuries of gothic art, literature, etc and stir it with horror and melancholy and only then is Goth music born. Goth music wasn't the catalyst to the goth subculture. It was the Bat signal leading to a watering hole of like minded mentality that would nourish those who choose to authentically express and indulge in the beauty and sometimes pain of their dark sides. The goth identity has only one cultural artifact that has crossed and connected all borders of the subculture after almost 40 years and that's the Goth mentality.

[@PhyreI3ird]

"Now combine this expressive mentality with centuries of gothic art, literature, etc and stir it with horror and melancholy and only then is Goth music born. Goth music wasn't the catalyst to the goth subculture. It was the Bat signal leading to a watering hole of like minded mentality that would nourish those who choose to authentically express and indulge in the beauty and sometimes pain of their dark sides." .... O_O holy shit.

[@grimsong2237]

@phyrel3ird Apologies, but was that an endorsement or disagreement?

[@agresticumbra]

Grim song, I think it might have been an epiphany of sorts for phyrel3ird.

[@BrotherJosephus]

Someone post this on the "Goth Subculture" facebook page ;-) On a more serious note, my first introduction to the "scene" was through a clubnight (Intrusion in Oxford) which plays "old school", Industrial and EBM (I was 23 at the time) so for me it wasn't all strictly goth rock/post punk/deathrock at the start (which is how those who run the FB group I mentioned above would have it). The first book I read was Dunja Brill's 'Goth Culture: Gender, Sexuality And Style' and I'm about half-way through Nancy Kilpatrick's 'The Goth Bible'.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Dunja Brill's book is fantastic!

[@susisargnagel7634]

Hi greetings from germany 🕸️

[@katelynblakeley2417]

What is your degree in? I notice that you often use terminology from psychology and sociology.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Nothing actually, I just love learning so I spend a lot of time reading papers and books largely from the cognitive sciences.

[@dayaautum6983]

I am wondering if perhaps it might be more productive to explore the exact meanings behind the dark themes apart from an appreciation for the ghastly and macabre, rather than try to define what is and what is not the definitive elements of the subculture on a superficial level.

[@TheKarret]

idk if I agree with the take that you can be a goth and not listen to goth music - imagine if someone tried to be like "I'm a metalhead, but I just can't get into metal music" - there's a whole lot more to being a metalhead than just listening to the music; the musicians in metal bands reference the occult and embrace being the demonized "other" and sexual deviancy etc; they have political views that counter the mainstream and question the norm, but the music is the most important part, people can dress like "normies" or whatever and still be metalheads because they love metal music. Goth, which was born from a collection of bands and musicians with a similar vibe that then became grouped into a handful of genres, is a music-based subculture. You even acknowledged that the music was the core. Yes other things got established around the music, but without the core, it's something else. You can call something a pot roast dinner for having gravy, carrots & potatoes, rice and dinner rolls, but without the roast of the pot roast.... is it really a pot roast dinner? Or should it maybe be called something else? It sounds like you're talking about being darkly inclined, which is true - anyone can be that, and the darker alternative subcultures like punks, goths, and metalheads tend to most commonly be the darkly inclined ones, but one can be darkly inclined and otherwise not actually belong to any of these groups. It's not a mark against someone for being darkly inclined but not belong to any of the subcultures most commonly associated with the darkly inclined looks/interests. It's okay to be a non-goth darkly inclined person. One can also be gothically-inclined; liking the art, poems/writing, architecture, movies etc of the Gothic period in history/with gothic themes and not be a goth, or darkly inclined. These can overlap, and often do, but these are all separate categories and I don't agree with the idea of mushing them all together because "eh why not." I actually think divorcing goth from the music is making the music die out - I see videos for metal bands, frequently get hundreds of thousands of views; and any time I talk with a metalhead about metal, we're swapping bands and learning more about other bands within the genre umbrella of "metal" and making the community stronger...... When I see goth stuff... the music doesn't often get talked about much - except in rare cases; The artists I see regularly have only 10s of thousands of views, with maybe an occasional hit reaching around 100k or so [if it's not one of the rare genuinely popular songs, that folks from the 80s in general would go visit]. It's SO much harder to discover goth bands because so few people actually listen to goth music; and it seems like I'm not alone because the bands' videos have so few views. I made a playlist where I just put all the songs from a Soilwork album together in order, because I noticed the other playlists for that album were missing songs, and that playlist that my nobody ass put together has over 600k views now. I did this act to make things easier for any other metalheads who wanted to listen to that album, and the community has responded to the effort of my nobody ass; and it makes me feel like I have some stronger ties to the metal community. I feel like I helped contribute in a small way to keeping the subculture alive and easy to explore. Neglecting the music... THAT makes the subculture weaker, IMO, killing what as you quoted was considered the core of the subculture. You said focusing only on the music "makes goth more prone to acculturation and commodification" but.... I've seen the opposite of what you're talking about... happening to goth in recent years. With like the soundcloud rappers trying to call themselves goth and have nothing to do with the subculture and no appreciation for the music... And let me tell you - shit like that does NOT happen with metal. A picture of Kim Kardashian wearing a Slayer shirt went viral, and one of the members of Slayer wore a shirt that said "Kill the Kardashians" in response. Metalheads are notoriously protective of their community and the idea that you have to listen to metal to be a metalhead, and metal is fucking thriving, dude. There's this one Indian folk metal band called Bloodywood, raking in millions of views on each of their music videos. Babymetal was controversial when they first came out, but the music was solid, the 3 main vocalists of the group showed appreciation and respect for the metal subculture and they got accepted. Metalheads are some of the most passionate fans of their music and that bleeds into the liveliness of the subculture - websites like MetalSucks, Metal Injection, Encyclopedia Metallum, etc, revivalist movements of retro metal sounds and looks, like the bands Holy Grail, The Sword, Kyng and several others. In comparison, goth is barely keeping itself afloat as anything other than the fashion - the fashion's huge, don't get me wrong, but instead of the culture being reduced to the music, it's being reduced to the fashion instead, now, which, the way people treat it, is FAR less in tune with the philosophy and deeper appreciation for the culture than being only about the music. Those soundcloud rappers objectify goth girls as "big titty goth girlfriend" and women dressing in a darkly inclined style calling themselves "goth thots" because "you don't need to be into the music to be goth" .... At least if you're into the music, the chances are good that the lyrics speak to you, and since, as you say, goth comes with its own kind of political and philosophical perspective and all that, the goth music will reflect those perspectives, so if the music speaks to a person, the chances are good that they share that perspective and are more likely to mentally be in tune with the goth subculture, even if they don't look the part. So that's why I think the music is the most important aspect of goth. Is it the ONLY factor? No, but it's certainly the most important one that imo, should be considered the linchpin, anything else - especially aesthetics - being considered such leads to worse outcomes. Now, if you want to say that goths who care most about the music gatekeep the music and don't readily share and swap the music with the baby bats and each other.... that can totally be a worthwhile conversation; I wonder if that could be a reason why the numbers I see for goth bands' videos being so low and why metal's is so comparatively high - metalheads will fucking spam you with metal music if you let them [and I'm no exception here; I have spent literal hours, multiple times, linking folks up with some of my favorite tunes/bands] ... idk if it's exactly the same with goths, and that could be part of why it's so hard to really dig into the music without really struggling to find it. :Va

[@justgween7573]

I guess I'm 40-60% goth. If that's a thing. I very much like DCD and Switchblade Symphony, but that's not enough to make one goth. I like songs here and there by goth artists but my music taste will never completely encompass the genre. Meanwhile my aesthetic and other tastes are goth af, and to all the non-goths (and even other alternative people I know) I'm the sp00kiest, gothiest motherpucker they know. Out of respect for the music crowd, I can turn in my goth card, because I don't fit the "Music Only" definition. But other than that, I guess I'm goth. Too normal to be dark yet too dark to be normal. I agreed with your point about "music only". If it were just about that, goth would be boring and shallow. But I will not deny that it is imperative to the scene. Although I don't like everything in the genre, I did do my research on the defining artists and know enough to follow a conversation. Great video.

[@dbmckinsey]

YOU. I like you :3

[@justinosborne5280]

The music scene needs support. If the music dies than what made the Goth subculture dies. I’m sorry to it, but there is too much emphasis that goth was not just about the music. There is more to the punk subculture as well, but it’s still primarily a music scene.

[@andrealopez4742]

I like how u said , like being goth but not lookin like ur goth Just by listening to the music , my mom was a big lister to goth music in the 80s but since she was Hispanic it was not possible to dress that way even if she wanted only because it's a big issue the way u look at least in a Mexican house hold at least in her issue , by the way love ur videos soo much !!!! I can listen to your voice all day lol 🖤🖤🤘

[@MoriDarkmoss]

Andrea Lopez I'm surprised since there's such a huge community of goths in Mexico who have been in it for super long...I heard from my Mexican friends that the scene there is LEGIT. :)

[@littles3715]

I dont like "traditional-goth" music or "death-rock" SISTERS.BAUHAUS.. CHRISTIAN-DEATH But i have a deep respect for it im a "rivethead" per say... I love the SISTERS & BAUHAUS REMIXES though their great....i love a few SISTERS songs though... 😊😊😊😊 But im not really into..the "traditional-goth" the sound.. But i do love SUSPIRIA alot fot example ... Iove when its mixed with "industrial" per say...i grew up in the 90s when nine inch nails was big im not a trent reznor fan either... 😂😂😂😆😆😆😆 hes great but i preffer other industrial "FUTURE-POP" "E.B.M" just my cup of tea....To me "goth" is a feeling state of mind but most likely its an artform to me...Music and image is more entertainment which is great ... Great video i loved it great discussion and topic very well done commentary i loved it just had to suscribe..