The Value of Music to Goth Identity | The Homology Hypothesis

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[@jurassicgoth1719]

These conversations have been going on for decades. I understand that the subculture evolves and changes but at it's core was always the music. I saw Bauhaus for the first time in 1981, saw lots of bands that have become the foundation of the scene, I went to the Batcave and lots of other club nights, attended Whitby Goth Weekend and other events, saw the rise of cyber and industrial, deathrock, darkwave, coldwave and lots of other splinters in the clubs alongside the classics, saw the fashions change, diversify and be reinvented by younger generations and I think that's good. Goth isn't a fixed historical artefact and should never be treated as such. For me, it came out of the excitement of going out to listen to this brilliant music, being in a space with others who shared my love of that dark aesthetic and sounds. I still go and see new bands and attend club nights...it's a broad church and I don't expect everyone to share my love of particular bands or dress the same as me (no more than I did in the 80's when most of us were wearing second hand and diy-ed clothes anyway) but I don't consider those who don't like the music, spend all their time doing make-up tutorials and goth clothing brand hauls in their bedrooms yet don't engage with the music or scene in any other way 'goth'. All they do is reduce the sub-culture to some banal kind of cosplay with no substance. I don't consider myself 'elitist' but it's a music based subculture and the term is a shorthand for commonalities....it comes from the music. Every so often the catwalks and the fashion magazines decide that 'Goth' is in this season and there is a glut of black dresses and strong makeup sashaying down the runways or staring back from pages of Vogue...but we all know a black lipstick and a black lace dress does not make it goth really...don't we?

[@angelabartolone9150]

100% agree

[@sgr1888]

We know. But not everyone knows.

[@ThreadBomb]

The word "tradition" is crucial to goth culture. Tradition means a sustained continuity, of fashion, of attitude, of music, etc. This doesn't mean that there will be no change, but it does mean that change should happen with an eye on past practices and aesthetics. If change happens without regard for what has come before, then the "goth" label becomes meaningless. If anything can be goth, then nothing is goth.

[@helenstirling-knight3878]

Just wanna note - I love that you take an academic approach to these different topics. Not enough people do.

[@lozentucker1071]

I recognize and honer that the music is one of the life blood of the culture. I also believe it's loving, appreciating, and embracing things that are dark and shy away from other people. I've been doing research on goth and darkly inclined and trying to figure out which one fits me. I have a few goth bands I like but for the life of me I can't get into the 80s goth rock but I'm still looking around to see what I like . I'm at the point in my life where I really don't care what my home town or even my family thinks about me I'm going to express that dark side of me in the best way I can. Even though I like bright colors, other things that aren't dark, and I'll dress "normal" sometimes I feel like it doesn't change who I am.

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

I feel you. I think music is idenity to a lot of people.

[@NephilimIncorruptus]

I'm so glad there are people like you who can be victim to my occasional flailings and conceptual contortions, gingerly pick up the pieces that actually have cohesive meaning and slap a few of those bits in with other, truly substantive, works and convey it in the best way possible. Even if none of this came from any of my ramblings, it harmonizes with me entirely. Thank you for it!

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Your Defining Goth video was where it all started, as you say, a lot of my thought has been shaped by other academic papers and research, but your original video has stuck in my head these last 2 years and certainly influenced my thinking. :)

[@SPAWNSY]

I feel that one needs to consume the culture, and not just the visual aesthetic of Goth, to be Goth. At least, to be an authentic Goth. Call me an elitist, all you want, I feel this is true. Another thing that I'd like to address; most Gothic Metal bands are influenced, heavily, by Goth bands. I wouldn't necessarily include Evanescence or Manson, to the list; being more pop/mainstream. Bands such as Type o Negative, My Dying Bride and Katatonia are good examples of music that, I feel, are linked to Goth. The sounds, atmosphere and textures in the music, go hand in hand, aside, of course, from the appearance; in where the aforementioned 2 artists fall into; just the visual aesthetics of Goth, and not the art. I have a video on my channel, in where I go in dept with that, if you like to check it out entitled 'Let's Talk Gothic Metal'. I go into Goth, Gothic Metal and some of the differences and similarities. Nevertheless, I'm glad you made this video. Love your channel and appreciate what you do for the community. Nice Cinema Strange patch!

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Thanks I'll check the video out! My quick thoughts on that are yes, Gothic metal draws influence from goth music, much like goth music draws influence from other genres, however both still exist within their own spheres. So while gothic metal is influenced by goth music secondarily, the primary influence, or sphere it exists within, is metal. There are some good cases to be made for bands that truly blur that line the most, and there is certainly an appeal there for goths, just like there are to stories or art pieces that draw on The Gothic. I don't feel that legitimizes Gothic metal as a genre of goth proper, but that's my current opinion. Thanks for the comment!

[@SPAWNSY]

Cemetery Confessions Thanks for reading and replying. Definitely, I see where you're coming from. It is definitely not credited in the Goth scene, as a legitimate genre, of the scene. As a follower of both, I guess, to me, they both go hand in hand, very often, than not. In fact, I've discovered bands, back and forth, through each other. It's truly an awesome thing. I'm happy to be able to speak to fellow Goths, such as yourself and others, about these things and receive different feedback. I just feel that bands like Manson, Evanescence and Korn, are all very different and very little to do with Goth and/or Gothic, all together.

[@louisvalentino43]

I do happened to be very fond of Angels of Liberty, Tragic Black,Selofan,She Past Away, The Frozen Autumn,Sun Creature, and yes Bauhaus.

[@louisvalentino43]

This boldly relates to my new taste in Goth music. I still prefer Goth industrial, but also love Cold-Wave, Dark-Wave, and Deathrock.

[@stephaniemcdowell1010]

@@SPAWNSY I never thought Manson was goth. I think he is maybe more goth aesthetically with some inspirations but I always thought of him as more shock metal. Korn to me has just been metal and Evanescence has just been operatic almost in vocal style metal with touches of goth influences. To me I've always been able to separate them somehow like this from the more authentically goth, post-punk, dark wave, trad goth type music.

[@aytakk]

If The Count was facing forward he could have sung "Jingle Balls" XD You could say the reason why the discussion keeps coming up is because the music is so important. So by questioning it, people are really reinforcing it.

[@praskieva]

I recently received my Cemetery Confessions shirt as well. Thanks for your well reasoned and intellectual approach as always. If only more people online were like you. Many thanks for the hours of quality podcasts and thought provoking discussion.

[@angelabartolone9150]

Thank you. Just found your channel. I 100% agree with you. I just wish I was as good as translating what I feel into words. You and Angela both are definitely on the same wavelength as I.

[@helenstirling-knight3878]

I personally agree with the homology hypothesis. If a goth at least respects and honors goth music as a key piece of goth culture then that is okay. Personally I have always respected that the music was in many ways the lifeblood of goth from its inception and still plays a significant role in goth culture today, but like you in your beginnings as a goth I am finding goth music very hard to get into due to a lack of exposure to anything but the big names. Thanks to Angela Benedict's play lists I have discovered that there are less well-known songs that I do like and styles of goth music that I like, but the only band I can solidly say that I like is Rosetta Stone. Something that I mentioned as a potential reason for people not knowing if they like goth music is a lack of knowledge on exactly what goth music is or what musical components make music goth. Do you happen to have a video or blog post about that? If not I think you would be the perfect person to create such a resource because you take an academic/scholarly approach to a lot of your information. It would help in guiding the exploration of goths who struggle to find music they like and also help us all identify what music being made today can or cannot be considered goth.

[@eternalwynter2254]

I like this video a lot. Goth is definitely not a checklist. I have people ask me questions all the time and I don't like videos that say things like "how to be a goth" etc. I think that it is complex like you said and I like what you said about individuality. I haven't heard that episode yet but I will check it out. I am glad people are having these conversations though. It is my first time via social media discussing things like this with others. My friends and I discuss these types of things all the time. I am okay with goth music evolving and I really love listening to new bands while still loving the old school stuff. Thank you for this video. I want to make a music playlist. I have to figure out how to do one. I like looking at Angela's playlists and I like yours too. I really enjoy how you discuss different bands on your podcast and give reviews with different people. I do not know how to properly give an album review yet. I do it on my blog and they are okay but I get super nervous haha. I will do one online some day.

[@neontzigane1930]

Great video as always and we both agree with you fully, The only thing to add really is that time adds the greatest perspective and what you like and who you are in your early 20s is vastly different to who you are in you early 40s and music is kind of the fluid "theme" that flows along with you in your life like a soundtrack to the values and beliefs that you believed in at the time, some take that with them through the course of their life and others don't. Please keep up the fantastic work, we are subscribed here and via the belfry app :-)

[@bettienoire1687]

Would you name the bands that you were introduced to (alluded to during your story about being helped with music that aligned with your taste in more ethereal, neo folk, spooky sounds) which became your personal bridge to goth music? That sounds like something I’d be into

[@laurelbeyl8350]

This is wonderful, as is everything you do for Cemetery Confessions. Thank you for this. (Also, I just got my Cemetery Confessions shirt! It's GORGEOUS.)

[@cryptsandcatacombs3097]

this is probobaly the best video on this subject yet. absolutley outstanding. this really helped me understand the subject even more in depth than it already has been. good job Daniel.

[@rickonnye2001]

Great video more please 👍👍👍

[@GothToRide]

I agree with much of this. I also think that as you said there has to be an understanding for that everyone does not like the core bands always presented as "The best goth bands to start of with". Also for people new to the subculture it may take time to figure things out and they should not be bashed upon for it but rather helped to explore. I really like what you and Angela do with playlists for newcomers (and others of courese). I have since before a playlist on spotify that I named "pastel goth" to help newcomers too. I think many today enter the scen through fashion such as nu goth and pastel goth and there is nothing wrong with that, rather kind of natural considering instagram and youtube. From there they may need guidance to find out more and enjoy the other parts of the scene.

[@deedeeblackwater8354]

When will you be posting the article version of this you mentioned in the video? I'll admit I had some difficulty following some of your points (due to my own inexperience with some of the academic terminology you used) and would really appreciate being able to spend more time with a written version. I was however, able to get a good grasp on the beginning of the video and I'm really glad you brought up the point about how some darkly inclined people can find traditional goth music to be an acquired taste. I know for me personally, I had a friend who knew that I was into William Control and The Birthday Massacre and suggested I listen to the bands that heavily influenced their music (Bauhaus, Joy Division, etc). At first I really had a hard time getting into the them. It wasn't until I started listening to the music more frequently at a local goth club (mixed in with the darkly inclined music I was used to) that I really developed a liking for it. It was reassuring to hear you had a similar experience. I agree that it's important to take this into account when encountering individuals new to the scene.

[@mallencolly]

Excellent. Love the more academic discussion :-)

[@alexismaddock3516]

Very well said and put together! I appreciate how you touched on several topics and questions that I have seen from "baby bats" posting more recently. I look forward to what put together for that essay you spoke of creating.

[@abysssss]

i'm honestly gonna have to try to connect alternative neural pathways to make up for the ones i boozed away so that i can better turn my brain up to the display of intellectualism shared here on this topic. the few remaining ones i have at least serve me the understanding that you're not just tossing around an interesting "word salad" here, and instead are crafting points with no compromises when it comes to watering down your vocabulary. irrespective of my fried brain's ignorance, i still very much feel that the spirit of your offering aligns with my own opinion on how important the music is to our subculture. thank you for sharing it

[@tnuoccaeht]

I love your approach on this, it's such a pleasure to listen to.

[@jeradswartz5609]

Keep making these shows man. I stumbled on your channel sometime last week, and have been listening ever since. I also agree with a lot of your views on the matter.

[@BlossomingVoid13]

I can relate to the music therapy putting the subculture in to personal perspective for your life. My son and I dance and clean while blasting music. I'm so happy to pass on my love of this music with my offspring because it reminds me that Goth isn't dead. Music began the subculture and it has evolved from that. No matter what it started as a music subculture and without it you are alternative or darkly inclined. I started my journey not knowing what goth music was I had fallen in love with Susie and the Banchees, The Cure, The Smith's, Joy Division not even knowing much of the subculture. It wasn't until later I got more in to the music and history of the movement. I am also in to other types of music as well. My mom was a metal head so I grew up with Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Dio, Metallica, etc. I really enjoy all kinds of music from the 60s like the Doors, The Greatful Dead, Jimi Hendrix, etc. I also really like some Nu Metal and (gasp!) Emo music especially in my teen years. Anywho you don't have to listen to only goth music to be goth. You can enjoy other genres as well. You should find music you like within the the goth subculture and respect it's beginnings. Even if you like one goth band you can find similar sounds and bands.

[@syahaz7088]

Gosh, I wish more people see this because you're basically the neutral point when discussing what is to be a goth. I like it when someone can discuss the insight from other perspectives while still standing on the perspective that you're in. For short, it will not scare baby bats away. As for me, I'm with you that music is the foundation of goth as a music subculture, it does feel inadequate as in culture participation when it been left behind.

[@crowntheraven1372]

Wow....you take learning at a whole new level (I hope that makes sense cause I’m dyslexic)!

[@mangoandrice]

i love how you put it. i especially like that you touched on the idea of evolution to be open to new things with out making it a free for all. there needs to be some sort of concrete concept for this not to just morph into something else completely. i would love to here more about the capital in the community.

[@GrizzneyGames]

I paused this at 11 minutes to say that I already feel seen. I've been "darkly inclined" for most of my life but I've always felt gatekept from being a "true goth" because of the music prerequisite. I understand that the music being at the core. I do. Holding those few bands as the standard doesnt make sense to me. It's like saying you arent a true rock fan if you dont like Elvis music. Of course, I know Elvis, and I've heard many of his songs over the years. That doesnt mean that I can't enjoy more recent rock more than his songs. Its still rock. It would be so strange to list the first handful of artists as the only way to be a true fan. Hell, read what i said and replace Elvis with the cure, Siouxsie, etc. And replace "rock" with "goth" and it still feels absurd.

[@GrizzneyGames]

Anyway, all of that was to say that many goth bands and artists make up the genre and don't feel pigeonholed into the same ones over and over.

[@louisvalentino43]

My Goth identity with the music would stylistically and aesthetically be Goth industrial, and has always been with me.

[@BlackJar72]

One critique -- considering the degree to which many stay in the subculture, I think its time to treating goth as a *youth* culture. This gives the impression that its an adolescent phase or something inappropriate for adults to be into -- something to grow out of when you're no longer a youth, perhaps immature to be into after a certain age. I think we can all agree that is not true.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

I agree! I hope I didn't imply goth was a youth culture, there has been a lot of work done, mostly by Dr. Paul Hodkinson and Dr. Dick Hebdige in studying aging participants of goth and other subcultures.

[@thismorbidcuriosity]

I really hope this video gets some traction. Whilst I semantically disagree with what you include as goth music (after the nineties I think industrial should be included, but I know this is contentious) what you are saying here has significant cultural relevance and hopefully people will listen to what you have to say.

[@sagesdream]

Very well said.

[@AjiLaStrange]

People have been jumping on this topic tonight/morning. Almost 3am where I am.

[@kaleidojess]

Aji LaStrange 4:13 am for me lol

[@Skiamakhos]

Yeah, back in the Usenet days it would get a lot of /facepalms & "Oh GHAAD, not *this* again!", but here on KZbin, contentious issues == views, so yeah, expect this to be the Issue That Would Not Die.

[@metalmyke1]

And is it bad I am playing Skyrim when I listen to your videos?

[@ThreadBomb]

The word "tradition" is crucial to goth culture. Tradition means a sustained continuity, of fashion, of attitude, of music, etc. This doesn't mean that there will be no change, but it does mean that change should happen with an eye on past practices and aesthetics. If change happens without regard for what has come before, then the "goth" label becomes meaningless. If anything can be goth, then nothing is goth.

[@LadyLecter]

I am really interested in this topic a few people are raising interesting points at the moment. Despite this topic running on for many years with new comers etc as you say it's good to keep this dialogue open. I myself always love hearing opinions of others, I really like how you explain things here. Your videos are always very interesting and engaging. I look forward to reading or listening to your further posts. Thank you

[@samuelpenn2973]

Wherein The Count shakes his money maker!

[@besmb-yo8qs]

Where to start if you want to learn something New about goth? I tried Gothic Charm School, but I didnt like it. Im trying a few other books though. Im thinking about trying Jillian Venters videos.

[@lolahamilton7004]

I really want to be absorbed in the topic but you're just really good looking and I will admit I am that shallow I come here to just look at you .... 😭

[@badappleinthebunch5623]

I'm goth. I love doing satani... I mean wholesome christian rituals that help me to feel evermore connected with God...

[@Skiamakhos]

My problem with the idea of "If you don't like goth music you're not a goth" stems from this: Goth is a subculture, a smaller culture within the mainstream, but essentially a culture enjoyed and participated in by a minority of the wider population. A culture is expressed in its cultural artifacts, through music, art, literature, fashion, and cultural events. Music may be a big part of it, but it's not 100% of the culture. I notice for example you have a nice Gothic candelabra in shot, and an ornamental skull. These are Goth cultural artifacts. You're wearing goth clothes, too. You say that music started it, but I'd argue that there were literary antecedents to the music which are as important if not more so, and a philosophical core which involves an ability to see and to seek beauty in mortality and darkness, without which there'd be no literature upon which to base the songs. At a base level, a culture is the stories we tell each other, the myths and legends that transmit our core values. Music is important, but so is art, so is fiction, so is dress, and so are the people you hang out with, the pubs and bars you frequent, the clubs you go to. I think the music thing has become the shibboleth because in this day & age it's *so* easy to educate oneself, grab a Spotify or KZbin playlist & read up on the bands that come up. Knowledge of music is a test that shows the individual knows a few things about Goth. They can regurgitate a few facts. But are they Goths? Do they grok Goth? Now, the other problem is that if you do boil the "Goth or Not?" test down to music, there's a tendency with a few tradgoths to get really religious fundamentalist about it. "The only true goth is Goth Rock!" they say, effectively trying to pollard this vast & tangly family tree, disowning its many sometimes legitimate, sometimes illegitimate, often weird & mutated offspring. Other folks are like "Well, if it sprang from Goth's dark seed, it's 'One of us! One of us!'", and you get more arguments. You're right though, this is a subject that rears its head periodically, and as much as it's been done to death & never with any satisfactory conclusions or consensus, it is healthy to look at The State Of The Subculture from time to time & reacquaint ourselves with the various arguments. In the 90s on Usenet we tended to plagiarise the Tao Te Ching: "The Goth that can be defined is not the True Goth". Cop-out, maybe, but it avoids feuds & bitterness.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Yes! I agree with you! I hope I didn't come across as implying goth is 100% music. My point with the homology hypothesis, is that goth is all of those things you mentioned; and to craft a goth identity, all of those elements must be present, while still allowing individuals the freedom to spend more energy in one aspect or to say "for me goth is mostly about the clothes" whiles till acknowledging and participating to a degree in those other elements. From a previous video (kzbin.info/www/bejne/hGLRmouddremobs) My four pillars are: 1. An appreciation of or affinity for goth music 2. A social or philosophical departure from media culture 3. Embracing darkness (manifest as the color black, a philosophical aesthetic, an appreciation of the macabre, or through other creative and performative/semiotic avenues) 4. An active pursuit of making these things and substantive interaction in the community, a part of one's daily life Now the content of those four can be contested and debated, but at base level, my main point, is that goth identity is the amalgam of many elements, and when one is missing that person ceases to be living a goth identity. My 4 pillars are very broad and flexible to cast the widest net possible without getting into "goth identity is whatever you want it to be" territory. So yes, great comment, I agree with you. :)

[@Skiamakhos]

Yes, I think those 4 pillars would work pretty well. That's some good work there.

[@metalmyke1]

I identify with a bunch of subcultures. Would I be a "mutt" then?

[@scarycakes]

People who were in tiny tiny towns before we had streaming music and they had never met a goth irl...

[@mallencolly]

You had me until you said you didnt like Virgin Prunes :-p

[@vampyresgraveyard8040]

There's are two goth identities one the goths barbarians the original term for goth if you live the way they lived wear what they wore and speek their language you can be considered as goth you dont have to listen to gothic rock. Two goth or gothic subculture like listening to gothic rock bands like bauhaus ,the sisters of mercy, siouxsie and the banshees, the cure, specimen, virgin prunes, nosferatu, disjecta membra, and many more. liking dark things in life like watching horror movie ,reading horror novels or gothic novels. Drawing death or dead things like skulls zombies vampires and evil creatures etc. Liking the supernatural. like cemeteries gothic cathedrals, gargoyles, gothic buildings,. Like gothic jewelry. And fashion the fashion and the music came out of punk or post punk a death rock look then the 90s then victorian entered the fashion and then cyber. But the goth subculture is mostly about the music. in my opinion goth is 85% music 5% fashion 5 % reading and writing gothic novels. And 5% liking dark things.

[@Skiamakhos]

I think if you plotted those as a spider graph, you might find that other goths might have other emphases, and possibly other factors to add. It'd be an interesting and worthwhile exercise, to see what is important to goths as a group. I think it can & maybe should be done.