Contraception, NFP, and Humanae Vitae in Christian Historical Thought and the Orthodox Church

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Ubi Petrus

Күн бұрын

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@HeWhoIsHasSentMe Ай бұрын

I just don't understand how Rome can argue that NFP is not a form of contraception. The intent is the same.

@t.l.ciottoli4319 Ай бұрын

@@HeWhoIsHasSentMe Honest Trads will admit as much. It very Talmudic to play silly games like that thinking you are tricking God and getting away w something.

@LuismaLorca Ай бұрын

@@t.l.ciottoli4319I'm an honest trad but I haven't seen any honest argument explaining how NFP or abstinence in general is contraception without playing semantics.

@t.l.ciottoli4319 Ай бұрын

@@LuismaLorca it is very clear: the entire purpose of NFP is to have sex without procreation. which violates the state of mind, the intention, which Rome says is incumbent upon the participants or else they sin.

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

@@LuismaLorcaNFP is playing "hide the egg" and artificial contraception is playing block the seed. Both methods are equally contraceptive, are they not?

@vincentalegrete3287 Ай бұрын

@@LuismaLorcabecause you’re actively making the choice to have sex when conception is impossible, because conception is impossible. You’re not honestly choosing not to not have sex when your wife just happens to be infertile. The entire point of tracking cycles is to minimize the probability that sex ends in pregnancy. Which is also the point of barrier and chemical contraception. If you argue that God designed reproductive biology to be exploited this way, then there’s no coherent basis for denying that reproductive physics (barrier, interruptus) and chemistry were also “designed” to be circumvented. It strains credulity that God would engineer a technicality against his own commands.

@ricardo.r88 Ай бұрын

Great video. The true roots of the anti-contraception view and its incoherence are shown. But I feel a continuation (making a positive case for the right view) is missing.

@xtgames1452 29 күн бұрын

Hopefully he will come out with a part 2

@kwazooplayingguardsman5615 28 күн бұрын

The right view will be the Catholic View. Also, Ubi Petrus just lied to you about Humanae Vitae, The Church just taught that NFP is just the only licit mean to conduct the marital act without necessarily leading to a child but it doesn't mean that one can proceed in adopting NFP without good reason and wanting to merely have sex is not a good reason. Read Humanae Vitae.

@christianfontenot9435 27 күн бұрын

I’m a Protestant inquiring into orthodoxy and Catholicism but this video and the marriage videos don’t help at all and actually convinces me more of Catholicism on these two aspects. Because In both videos ubi presents a bunch of early church fathers that disagree with both positions except for the positions he lists are still closer to the catholic position. But the difference is that Catholicism allows for doctrinal development while orthodoxy does not, and from what I have seen Orthodoxy is not in the position to gather together to settle these matters. In this video he lists a bunch of fathers saying that you shouldn’t have sex at all without the intention to procreate and then in the marriage videos he lists a bunch of fathers saying no one can divorce and remarry at all. These are both different positions to the current orthodox position and they are both closer to the catholic position which can reconcile them with doctrinal development and the magisterium while Orthodoxy cannot. If my observations are wrong someone please correct me and tell me how these two videos give a positive case for the orthodox view on these things

@emilbrusic6032 27 күн бұрын

You are not wrong. But that is not true Orthodoxy, Ubi Petrus (and most of YT channels who call themselves Orthodox) belong to the World Orthodoxy and they are on the same path as RCC, they 'ecumenize' each other, they belong to the World Council of the Churches, and they believe unofficially that doctrine of the Church should be adapted to the modern world. If you are really interested in Orthodoxy, look for True Orthodoxy. We are small, most of the states-countries don't recognized us, we are poor, we don't obey secular state regarding plandemic or any other evil, and we are very close to be in the catacombs.

@christianfontenot9435 27 күн бұрын

@ my problem with this is did God intend for the one true church to be completely unknown to most of modern civilization? Jesus said that all authority on earth has been given unto him and to go out and make disciples of all nations but the Orthodox church, especially the true orthodox church is hidden from most of the people in the world throughout time. That would be hard for me to accept scripturally and philosophically. God did not leave a church that others have to find to come to him. He intended to leave a church that will spread the gospel throughout the nations, be a light in the world, and reach out for the sinners who are lost and not wait for those deprived of grace to somehow find the one true church

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

Casti Connubii 59 first sentence condemns NFP and is not referring to artificial contraception because artificial contraception is always "against nature."

@brianortiz809 Ай бұрын

This is the first sentence of Casti Cannobii 59, and I find no condemnation of natural family planning: "Holy Church knows well that not infrequently one of the parties is sinned against rather than sinning, when for a grave cause he or she reluctantly allows the perversion of the right order."

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

@brianortiz809 the "perversion of the right order" = procreation secondary (onanism/NFP). This first sentence cannot be referring to artificial contraception because AC can never be cooperated with because it acts against nature. "In such a case, there is no sin, provided that, mindful of the law of charity, he or she does not neglect to seek to dissuade and to deter the partner from sin. Nor are those considered as acting against nature who..."

@johnisaacfelipe6357 29 күн бұрын

@@AnnulmentProof NFP doesn't perverts the right order, you are not doing violence to the act, you are working with what God has established in a man and a woman.

@AnnulmentProof 29 күн бұрын

@johnisaacfelipe6357 The right order is #1 procreation, #2 secondary ends. Family planning flips that does it not?

@johnisaacfelipe6357 29 күн бұрын

@@AnnulmentProof The Right order isn't merely procreation, if that is the case, then SA-ing women would be fine if it means procreating children. Or making children in vats would be fine. Right order must hold that sex has a dual function, both equal in its importance, unitive and procreative. Family planning doesn't flip that, because it honors the natural bounds that God has instituted in the body of man and woman. We are not doing violence to the marital act since we are not introducing contraceptives nor are we changing it into something it is not by using it merely for unitive or procreative ends, it must be both.

@joshuamkk Ай бұрын

demons manifesting on this one

@johnisaacfelipe6357 29 күн бұрын

Alot of eastern demons which wants to rob the marital act out of its unitive beauty and purely turn it into a mechanical tool for bearing of children.

@EasternRomeOrthodoxy Ай бұрын

☦️I am very happy you quoted the Pious Lactantius, who along with the Pious Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea, and Great Clemens of Alexandria, the greatest Christian teacher who ever lived in eloquently presenting the faith & refuting the pagans, as well as infallible doctrine & oral tradition (despite very few little minor instances where he misspeaks in terms of articulation, not substance though & should be venerated as Saint). He was the personal teacher of the Blessed & Holy Emperor Constantinus & his Children, as well as St. Epiphanius of Salamis, whose all of his divine works are incredible. All Christians must read all of their great works which survived. But I vehemently reject that falsehood that Lactantius who wrote extensively refuting every Greek school "drew" from them. What? (Eusebius wrote also a lot on how many of their views were palagarized from the Jews anyway, the points of agreement did NOT come from them at all). And what you said about St. Augustinus - no, just like the rest of the fathers, he is infallible, and you simply misunderstood what he said about the Filioque & conception (along with St. Hieronymus). St. Prosper Aquitanus his Disciple, already proved in his Call to the Gentiles that his doctrine of predestination is harmonized with that of St. Cassianus, and I cannot understand how can you possibly believe that our fathers who wrote extensively condemning & refuting *every* Greek school, were influenced by pagan philosophers? Or that the Holy Jewish Rabbi Ben Sirah was a Hellenized Jew?? - this is absolutely false, Ubi. Also that book misrepresented the words of the Holy Tertullianus. God bless🙏❤️

@EasternRomeOrthodoxy 29 күн бұрын

@@icxcnika2037Yes, they are - on matters of doctrine & theology. You have in the west an irreverent view of the heirs of the Apostles, the bearers of Oral tradition & FATHERS of the Church. St. Palamas himself said that only simple minded people would think that. You simply cannot harmonize them & read them charitably, so I would suggest you try & do that, please.

@emilbrusic6032 28 күн бұрын

They are condemning Church fathers (specially st.Augustine) as stoics because they believe that 'marital relations' between spouses are allowed for fun, i.e. for lust. So, there are no fundamental differences between their view and modern RCC. RCC is saying, only NFP is allowed as contraception, they are saying every mode of contraception is allowed because it is 'love'.

@EasternRomeOrthodoxy 28 күн бұрын

@emilbrusic6032 Yes, I was really surprised by this video, I mean we Orthodox fight with the Thomists showing them that all the holy fathers condemned the Pagan Greek philosophers, who represent Athens, while Moses Jews & Christians represent Jerusalem. All fathers taught the same that sexual intercourse is for purpose of conception & in this process it gives pleasure, but never for pleasure alone.

@emilbrusic6032 28 күн бұрын

@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy Agree with you. St.Seraphim Rose warned us to not attack st.Augustine, because he is recognised Church father (f.Romanides has main influence on this attacking st.Augustine and all tradition of West Orhodoxy). Even his predestination could be corect because he wrote, God could not save us without our free will, without our consent. Ubi Petrus attack him because they don't agree with his view, actually of all fathers, that intercourse is not allowed if it is with contraception in mind. I am True Orthodox, and we have clear view against modernism which is in this new theology which they have common with RCC - contraception is allowed because we should accomodate with this brave new world.

@emilbrusic6032 28 күн бұрын

@@icxcnika2037 Yes, I am 'schismatic' True Orthodox. Please inform me when and where Orthodox Church decided that contraception is not sin and is allowed? And please name one Church father who wrote or teach the same? I am pretty sure that contraception is not allowed, and if my local Church teach otherwise than she fell away from Orthodoxy. Yes, not one Church father is infallible, but if they teach the same on some issue, in this case that contraception is not allowed, then it is infallible teaching. That is how any true orthodox/catholic/christian should judge his local Church, if she teach heresy then you should get out of her and find true Church. World Orthodoxy teach ecumenism, and many orthodox know ecumenism is heresy. How could they be in the Church which teach heresy? Then they are heretic as well, because they are under authority of heretical hiearchy, they recognise them as such. So, Roman Catholic are the same as World Orthodox. And in this case we see they are teaching the same regarding contraception, both are against teaching of the Church fathers.

@GenAlphaOrthodox Ай бұрын

I want to convert to orthodoxy but i'm also considering catholicism. I feel catholicism is wrong but at the same time i feel both are reasonable. How can i have more confidence in orthodoxy?

@harvestcrops3983 Ай бұрын

I truly do not understand why people think Papal Protestants is legit in any way. You think it's ok to pray in a Mosque as a Christian? You think Christians, Muslims and Rabbinic Jews believe in the same god (Vatican II)? Or that having a temple dedicated to condemn heretical teacher? (Nestrous). Or even better, the Mercy Day, who they consider St. Faustina, where the Sacraments are open to all? I just don't get it, not being mean, but are people just assuming and not taking a week to actually read doctrines? We have access to the internet, use it.

@George88851 Ай бұрын

Pray, talk to an orthodox priest, maybe visit a monastery. But prayer is the most important part of your journey to orthodoxy.

@t.l.ciottoli4319 Ай бұрын

Become Orthodox. I was Byzantine Rite Catholic beofre realizing that Romanism is based on a pack of lies and I had no peace. I have peace now, and the Spirit is found in the Holy Orthodox Church, not the Papal Church. They have no Spirit and no Grace in their sacraments. Trust me, don't waste your time with Rome. You could pay a heavy price spiritually if you do.

@t.l.ciottoli4319 Ай бұрын

@@GenAlphaOrthodox even Popes have declared that the Orthodox have the Eucharist. If we have Christ, what more do you need? Pope Benedict and the Chieti documents admitted that the First Millenium Church did not have the Papal System and was collegial. Rome has officially admitted they were in the wrong

@a.ihistory5879 Ай бұрын

Look at who meets the marks of the Church. Catholics have fulfilled the Great Commission and are the reason why we aren't Muslim today (Crusaders) Don't go against the church that evidently has the Holy Spirit. God bless 🙏

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

In what year did "NFP" get changed from illicit to licit?

@nilceoliveira9712 29 күн бұрын

ubi petrus, are you a brazilian? because of your video called "os ortodoxos evangelizam?". if you are, please make more orthodox apologetics videos in portuguese against roman catholicism and protestantism. most brazilians are or protestant or catholic and Brazil need to know orthodoxy. please save lives in brazil

@navienslavement 29 күн бұрын

Sex for children only has the only rational end in always choosing IVF

@mariobaratti2985 Ай бұрын

Contraception is immoral in the orthodox church too - we are not bound by sparse errors of some random declaration

@kevinrhatigan5656 Ай бұрын

You have no Magisterium to definitively settle that matter

@basel9560 Ай бұрын

@@kevinrhatigan5656 No one tell this clueless papist clown, let him figure out

@t.l.ciottoli4319 Ай бұрын

@@kevinrhatigan5656uh yes we do

@a.ihistory5879 Ай бұрын

If that were true, you wouldn't have multiple priests with different views on this matter . They also don't know how to baptize properly, they commit the grave sin of re-baptism constantly cuz they can't even agree amongst themselves on whether or not someone who is Catholic was legitimately baptized (which they were). They should do better at reading the didache @@t.l.ciottoli4319

@kevinrhatigan5656 Ай бұрын

@@t.l.ciottoli4319 where is it? The opinion of one Bishop pitted against another doesn't count, it has to be universal and binding on all the faithful

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

Is baby production nature, or duty?

@brotherbrovet1881 Ай бұрын

Yes

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

@@brotherbrovet1881 when was "increase and multiply" first declared "duty?"

@marcuswilliams7448 Ай бұрын

@@AnnulmentProofIt is an imperative, which also empowers what it commands, much the same as when God says "Let the earth bring forth vegetation," etc. The duty is to not eschew having children, the blessing is that God gives life.

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

@@marcuswilliams7448 Because increase and multiply is nature, there can be no exceptions to it, no matter the circumstances.

@oscarbowman3718 Ай бұрын

@@marcuswilliams7448where is your source for that interpretation I’d be interested in reading more?

@a.ihistory5879 Ай бұрын

Some women don't know they're pregnant until a couple of months in. Also, didn't St. Paul tell us to marry to avoid lust? So s** For pleasure with your wife shouldn't even be a venial sin. It was made to be pleasurable for a reason. You can engage in the conjural act, and if you wife didn't get pregnant (which happens all the time because it's never guaranteed) then did you accidentally commit sin?

@EasternRomeOrthodoxy 29 күн бұрын

@@icxcnika2037☦️But also misrepresenting & misinterpreting of what St. Augustinus meant regarding the 3 doctrines mentioned. Why don't you in the west read the Blessed infallible holy father (as all Church fathers are) *charitably*

@EasternRomeOrthodoxy 29 күн бұрын

@icxcnika2037 Yes, but a westerner, right? You have different approach over there. I see all the time that a lot of you treat the fathers as if they are guys with opinions working in a democracy, not guided by the Spirit. I am trying to help you change that mindset & learn how they are harmonized, just as the different Gospels are.

@johnisaacfelipe6357 28 күн бұрын

@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy If you believe this, do you also accept the filioque?

@FirstActuality 28 күн бұрын

@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy Church Fathers are not individually infallible, that's delusional

@EasternRomeOrthodoxy 28 күн бұрын

@johnisaacfelipe6357 I don't. What all the fathers teached regarding it is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father YHVH *through* the Son the Logos (not 'and')

@AnnulmentProof Ай бұрын

1930 Casti Connubii *condemned* NFP

@murphysmuskets 28 күн бұрын

Where’s the Orthodox dogma exactly?

@emilbrusic6032 28 күн бұрын

Authors lied that there was no consesus of Church fathers condemning contraception. Reason is obvious, to justify sin of lust as allowed in the marriage, something which increase 'love' between spouses. World Orthodoxy is not very different than modern RCC. They are very close to pope John Paul II "theology of body".

@pinesap34 29 күн бұрын

“Here’s why using your wife as an object is hecking trad!”

@outpost4047 29 күн бұрын

Palamas is still a saint in your church

@t.l.ciottoli4319 29 күн бұрын

literally Humanae Vitae says you can do this when it says married couples are allowed to “take advantage” of infertile periods. Condemn your own official doctrine then, unless you wish to be intellectually dishonest.

@johnisaacfelipe6357 28 күн бұрын

@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Humanae Vitae doesn't do that, We Catholics still abhor the act of using your wife as an object of lust, NFP can be practiced with good and pure intent, Contraception, which the orthodox tacitly allow, cannot be done likewise because it inflicts violence onto the marital act itself. You will submit to the wisdom of the church, that is the great virtue that the orthodox lack, they lack obedience.

@johnisaacfelipe6357 28 күн бұрын

@@t.l.ciottoli4319 Literally, just read the papal encyclical humanae vitae, instead of hearing it being cut apart by the butcherer called ubi petrus to you.

@outpost4047 27 күн бұрын

@@johnisaacfelipe6357 the orthodox do not allow contraception, we just don't have a binding ruling on it as of now. Nfp can only be used in a lustful way, as the fathers teach that all union they does not have the intent of childbearing is wrong. Your church literally allows using women as an object