Convo w/ PhD Historian DERAILS Into Most INSANE Israel Debate Ever

[@destiny]

Leftist Hasan Fans Confront Destiny On Campus ►kzbin.info/www/bejne/qX2uY2mkp7aalcU

[@Vicioussama]

I wanna know something why is it: Destiny still ignores Israel attacking safe zones constantly, Destiny still ignores the IDF snuff channels. Destiny still ignores what the very leadership of Israel up and down the structure say about Palestinians and what they are planning... how can anyone take Destiny's take on Israel serious anymore? I mean, I do agree that the rest of the Arab world has done the Palestinian people dirty, that Hamas are clearly using Civilians for their own propaganda and strategic advantage.... but the fact he can't realize Israel are monsters trying to wipe out the Palestinian people from the area (maybe not killing them all, but forcing them to leave to other regions of the world because of the threats) is horrific. And stop calling them "the only democracy in the area." They are a piss poor democracy. I mean, you guys realize how ridiculous and restrictive Israelis are? You can't even get a DNA test. You can't marry same sex so where's the outrage over LGBT stuff there? You can't pretend they are a "liberal democracy" and yet are so restrictive towards their people. So tired of Destiny's bias here because he is always just in line with the establishment thinking (which is horrific)

[@moscowboyjer]

“Leftist hasan fan” is the ultimate clickbait title for destiny’s viewers. You know that people can be fans of someone and also have their own individual, intellectual merit, right? I wouldn’t label everyone who is a fan of Destiny as “flirting with right wing positions Destiny fans.” This whole war of destiny v hasan is painfully cringe and infantile. Nothing productive comes of labelling people as minions of your perceived opposition. This is insanely reductive and trivial.

[@kristiansandsmark2048]

​@@Vicioussama In general i can understand why they are at war with Gaza. If you look at the response of 911 this is peanuts. Destiny's main point is that if you are going to war, and the war is justified then it's only the matter of how you conduct warfare that can be scrutinized. In this matter Israel does more than any other country. For instance they are the only ones warning people about bombings through SMS and flyers. Might not sound like much, but they are the only country i know of that is doing this. When it comes to LGBT rights you would be in risk of being killed in Palestine, and in Saudi Arabia you punishments include 100 lashes that usually result in death. They are considered to be the second worst country in the world in regards to LGBTQ rights. Additionally Oman, UAE, Yemen, Qatar is also in the top 10. The inability to get married in Israel is bad, but when you look at all the bordering countries they are light years ahead in regards to equality.

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

4:58 🤨that was actually all the leaders of the PA, PLO, Hamas, PIJ talking about the 2 state solution bro got confused

[@trusstee1]

one of the most debates that's ever been debated

[@teegee126]

5 hour video? Definitely skipping my court case today

[@Jemsy_]

The judge will understand

[@gmailistrash4094]

Go to the judge and get some fudge

[@horrorqueen3577]

Dude, your name is "tatesfanboy" - thats a type of "re evaluate my life" cringe.​@tatesfanboy

[@noturnleftunstoned72]

the cheese is strong with this one.

[@horrorqueen3577]

@tatesfanboy Ong I just looked at your comments on all of Destiny's stuff and it's the exact same comment spammed on everything. Either you're a bot or you're a complete reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetord.

[@Stratocaster42]

5 hour autistic debates are better for my mental health than SSRIs

[@brokencreationlordmegatrol3037]

I get so much work and lift stuff done. Finish commissions . Clean my room like old Peterson would be proud of . And hit new pr in The gym when something in the stream triggers my timbers

[@Freqv]

Based on

[@dreamspeakhomie]

😂

[@16uy9aming4]

I'm tired boss

[@hipsterbelt4292]

hey been reading up alot on the pharmacology of SSRIs and the evidence of their success is pretty weak and based on junk science (chemical imbalance theory), unironically dancing is a more effective treatment for depression. Obviously don't just listen to a random online but you should try to aim to get off them in the medium term and move more (talk to your psychiatrist about the latest data on ssris)

[@judylerri2348]

HOW CAN AN ACADEMIC GET SO OFFENDED WHEN ASKED FOR A FUCKING SOURCE Sorry I'm mad

[@dynamitestalker4219]

I dont accept ur apology

[@Trucking4Jesus]

@@dynamitestalker4219 you gonna eat your tots?

[@Trucking4Jesus]

i also dont accept your apology

[@SincerelyMe123]

ABSolutely

[@SincerelyMe123]

because their egos are so big, they really think they are the OOONNNNLLLYYYYYY nation to be told to leave someone's land

[@Strangerthang87]

No matter which way you cut it, the professor here deserves 500 x more respect than Finkelstein because he actually attempted to debate his points.

[@enlightenednormie242]

It's Sad! That the Bar is this Low🤷‍♀️

[@CordaroBlu]

It was genuinely so much more insightful and educational. I wish Benny was here to put this dude in his place though.

[@brian-iz7wv]

100%. Big props to the guy for sticking with it for like over four hours and actually engaging with something other than how to pronounce Steven’s last name

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

​@@CordaroBlu That would have actually been amazing.

[@danielquartler1527]

My 4y girl has better arguments and prestige compared to Norman

[@ace-daniel4240]

“You’re an academic! Site something, that’s your job.” And like that I’ve instantly absorbed 5 hours of content in 2 seconds

[@Xxkbtje919xX]

@@bluesh0esthat’s definitely not how this guy thought about getting his PhD

[@Dogan_TM]

Cite

[@ignotuscapillary8313]

​@@Dogan_TM Sight

[@Machete__Squad]

​@@ignotuscapillary8313 Cite something on the sight of the site

[@thulist]

@@ignotuscapillary8313 scythe

[@professorrubickmagusgrandi7909]

Bro, I have sources, I have a huge amount of sources, you couldn't imagine how many sources I have, I have so many sources I can't even remember which specific one because there's so many.

[@rayhoodoo847]

Lol

[@FringeSpectre]

Destiny- "what's the evidence for that?" PHD Historian- "uh, do you see my bookshelf?"

[@chocolatMouse]

After seeing this debate, I've decided to go back to university to get my PHD. Because I'm now convinced that every moron can get one.

[@EmperorDxD]

True

[@thewkovacs316]

when it comes to liberal arts/social sciences....this is a fact

[@TheLumberjack1987]

@@thewkovacs316 nah people fail those as well

[@WeinerDefender]

I am working on an engineering PhD. This dude is pretty shocking. I would have guest he was a promising undergrad

[@arthurporter131]

@@thewkovacs316hahaha no. Getting a history PhD takes like 7-10 years AFTER you’ve gotten your masters. You don’t have to be brilliant, but it isn’t easy.

[@shvnj]

A PhD Historian who made wild claims without any sources and then walked back most of them when confronted. Truly one of the debates.

[@yogafrogz]

Guy was still better than Finkelstein tho

[@LowercaseKev]

@@yogafrogzagreed 100%

[@shvnj]

@@yogafrogz can't argue with that but, a pretty low bar to clear.

[@TGiSHIllidanServer]

@@yogafrogz To be fair, any TikTok scroller could've done better.

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

@@yogafrogz well finkelstien also legit said october 7th warmed his soul so yea

[@Tijl96]

I think it’s so ironic that these guys are so anti nationalism etc when it comes to western powers but when it comes to Palestine and Jewish immigration they start to sound like nationalists whining about the “great replacement”

[@ordro107]

Exactly so many oxymorons . They claim the USA are Nazis and ruined the Middle East and that’s why they had to immigrate to the west… but also say the Jews couldn’t have done that when persecuted by the actual Nazis

[@connormullin4547]

It's also the same when you look from the perspective of the Palestinians where Israel tries to tightly control their demographics so there aren't too many Arabs. The reality is that it is always bad to have hostile, dangerous, or useless people in your country and when you get too many it makes things extremely unstable and dangerous. That's why it's important to have good migration control so you don't get into these situations in the first place. Israel is smart enough to keep out Arabs, and Palestinians were smart enough to realize a bunch of Jews moving into their living area would be a problem, but failed to get rid of them before they got too powerful. It doesn't change anything, the solution is still to just keep them separate. The Arabs in this region lost the demographic war so they should cut their losses and take the deal they can get before they are displaced completely. It's perfectly rational for Israel to just expand their settlements until the Arabs are a small enough minority to expel or absorb, and their bargaining position will only get worse. Western nations won't be stupid enough to intervene on behalf of Hamas for probably another generation or two, waiting and hoping for western intervention isn't a good plan.

[@Yara-Li]

@@connormullin4547I agree, though the problem isn’t Hamas, they will not survive for long. Sinwar is taking his last breaths, the problem is the Ideology. As long as the Palestinians hold on to this absorb notion that their land was stolen, and that they have some sort of false right of return as if that’s a thing, they will never move past it. What makes things worse is the inherently interwoven this narrative that Jews are European colonials, as if they have no connection to the land or as if there is some great Jewish empire somewhere from which the colonial settlers came to take over far away land. The Palestinians never had national consciousness before the Jews or the Zionist movement triggered them. And even then they referred to themselves as Arabs. This Palestinian national Identity fully emerged in 1964 with help from the KGB. What makes their claims so obvious is that initially they claimed the occupied territory is 1964 Israeli borders. The West Bank and Gaza which were both under Muslim rule were not considered to be ‘occupied’. There was never any intention by ANYONE to create a Palestinian state, especially before 1967. They had 19 years to give them a state, this strongly suggests the main objective is to destroy Israel rather than build a Palestinian state.

[@user-tu2py1qc2z]

​@@connormullin4547I like how your argument boils down to "israel strong so good". In a desperate attempt to seek nuance, and fluffered with weird pretentions of intellectualism, you seem to fundamentally forget that things like ethnic cleansing are actually a bad thing. One could easily use the exact same logic here to justify the holocaust. But, personally, I'd stray away from that cause murder is kinda bad.

[@Rojomanzana438]

@@user-tu2py1qc2z Yes, Arabs tried to ethnically cleanse the Jews in 1948, good thing the Jews were able to protect themselves.

[@michaelgrant2099]

That’s so slimy. “Name me an attack against the British.” “1937 Souk attack. 80 people were killed.” *looks it up* “That was against Arabs, not the British.” “It’s British mandate citizens, so it’s the same thing!”

[@tazacebedo253]

its not a country hence not citizens yet.

[@Breadbored.]

I like the part where he started rattling off events in the mid to late 40s after he realized he had nothing. I'm sure it's impressive to his students when he just rhymes off a bunch of dates and events at random like it means something, but when somebody is asking you to provide evidence for a specific thing you claimed and you say a bunch of other stuff, it just makes you look like you're too dumb to have a discussion.

[@michaelmravetz6276]

What's the time stamp on this?

[@notan3144]

@@michaelmravetz6276 2:30:15 onwards

[@johnleoks7642]

Another pro palestinian PhD who can't cite their sources to back their claims and resorts to "I have a degree and have read many books, just trust me bro". Dude even tried to twist Benny's words and use it against Destiny lmao.

[@skyefox]

"I've read Benny, I know what he said" "BITCH I KNOW HIM, I'VE HEARD WHAT HE SAID"

[@brockfg]

Yea the credential waving and "I HAVE READ bookS" authoritarianism is so cringe. However, if the minutes are actually in the books he pulled out within a few minutes i would give him some credit.

[@TheRainsRuined]

This is black pilling against "Historians" now. The amount of knowledge you know means nothing if you don't have the IQ to utilize it

[@JustAPriapism]

No bro my grandma told me so, she was there. Sitting next to Jesus on day one. She has papers bro. You lose default. Ez points. 😎

[@16uy9aming4]

PHD in echo chamber.

[@peterranney9488]

At the end of the conversation when the PhD said "I have relatively little patience for being called a liar in these conversations." it was a perfect personification of the whole debacle. Nobody was calling him a liar, that would have been more charitable. They were calling him a moron.

[@gavrielwarren4726]

He was called a liar around 3 hours in

[@christianowens3990]

you didn’t even watch the video

[@peterranney9488]

@@gavrielwarren4726 I understand that the claim was made once, but my point was that he was called an idiot for most of the conversation and a liar once. I was probably hyperbolic in my initial comment, but the main thrust of the attack on him was that he was stupid not lying.

[@peterranney9488]

@@gavrielwarren4726 I don't even think he is a moron, I just think that he has defined things in a way that makes engagement impossible. I just found it funny that the thing he took umbrage with in the convo was being called a liar when the thrust of the convo was that he was too dumb to be a liar.

[@miketemple876]

I promise you. It was NOT this easy to become a PHD historian when I was at University back in 2007. I have no idea what happened

[@DonXardas]

The quality droped. And it droped way down.

[@Fable64]

Quality dropped and students don’t retain information because they don’t have to in order to get a good grade. Basically the downside of having all the information in the world at your fingertips means that none of it actually has to retained in your head.

[@dfmrcv862]

I majored in history, got my Bachelor's in it in 2020, and it was clearly *way* harder than this. We had one girl who tried arguing like this guy, and while I'm not sure what grade she got for that work, the look on the prof's face was *not* a happy one.

[@LoudWaffle]

To the people saying quality dropped, there have always been people slipping through the cracks (how I don’t know why), for example Finkelstein got his PhD in the 80s. Obviously it’s going to vary from school-to-school but the process that dissertations go through is still rigorous from what I’ve heard first hand. And that republican politician Doug Mastriano whose PhD credentials (2013 graduate) came under heavy scrutiny a couple of years ago - I think the school still hasn’t made his dissertation available to the public.

[@LoudWaffle]

@@dfmrcv862 Exactly, arguing like this guy in any of my bachelor classes would get me a failing grade and probably probation, and my school is not big-name or known for being tough. No idea how he got his PhD. edit: now that I've listened through about half the debate it's incredibly clear how he has his credentials, he has a very broad and deep knowledge of history and is able to back up his statements with countless specific examples and clear definitions (like the difference betwen nation, state, and country). The gesturing toward his stack of books in lieu of citations was not a good look, brought about by frustration in the conversation and not having the precise citations Destiny was demanding on-hand, but putting it in the prelude to the video definitely poisoned the comment section, including myself.

[@Andwhatson420]

The fact the historian said destiny wants to nitpick the facts of history tells you all you need to know about this guy

[@idontgetthejoke4813]

dude has niche definitions for things like "state" and "nation" but is frustrated by nitpicking.

[@GKJusticar55]

I missed the beginning of this live so I did not expect for this conversation to be so horrible from the beginning.

[@abdmzn]

​@@idontgetthejoke4813 They are not niche, all he said made perfect senseand is fairly intuitive.

[@idontgetthejoke4813]

@@abdmzn Do you disagree with it being dumb that he thinks destiny was nitpicking history?

[@abdmzn]

@@idontgetthejoke4813 No, I didn't think Destiny was nitpicking.

[@GuranPurin]

I love how the Professor used the word "Zionist" instead of "Jew" or "Israeli" at nearly every possible instance. "The first murder of a Zionist...","The Zionists moved in", "Zionist violence and aggression" while also calling the Arabs "Palestinians" before the concept of Palestinian as an identity even existed...it almost feels like a parody. They have really convinced themselves that Jews are not native or "indigenous" people to that area, arguably moreso than the Arabs. Dominic goes on and on about the people who have been living there for thousands of years as though his "family" as he calls them, didn't conquer that territory while Jews were already there? The Pro-Palestine side is never beating the antisemitic allegations.

[@littlemac1208]

Friend, they called themselves Zionist, we use that term to differentiate the native Jews that lived there. You can’t expect a largely illiterate native population of subsistence farmers to have theirs minds on a fairly western, new concept of Nationalism. But yes the literate ruling class or whatever you want to call them did have the concept of being Palestinian. Zionist, Palestinian these are just mouth noses we are using to describe the people. Arab is such a strange name honestly. It doesn’t mean their dna comes from Arabia. The Arab speaking native population, their dna, has always been there. They used to speak Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek etc. Palestinians share just as much dna ties to the land of not in most cases, much more than Zionist(aka Jews from Europe who called themselves colonists who, from the beginning, planned to disposes what they considered the native population).

[@mentolibya9952]

Jews of modern Israel are not natives to the land so live up with that

[@notsodeep1140]

​@littlemac1208 just stop dude. Your little heroes failed hard here.

[@gmodrules123456789]

Would you prefer that anti-zionists convert to antisemitism? Anti-zionists have gone to a massive effort to separate the ideology from the ethnicity. Precisely because they don't want to come off as antisemitic. But you really, REALLY want Zionism and Judaism to be the same thing. Well, be my guest. If you want 30 to 50 percent of the American population to be antisemitic, then by all means, convince people that Zionism is equivalent to Judaism.

[@RonMi95]

@@littlemac1208the truth is in the middle. It was a conflict between Jews and Arabs. The Palestinian Arab identity started to develop in the late 30s. The origin of most of the Palestinians are the adjacent countries, many came from Egypt or Syria/Levante in the 1910s. Some of the Palestinians originate from ppls living there since before the diaspora. Not calling the conflict one between Jews and Arabs completely and conveniently glossed over the antisemitic aspects of the conflict

[@jaegybomb]

The narrative that Palestine owned 95% and Israel owned 5% of the land before the partition plan is so disingenuous. Israel owned 6% and Palestine owned 16%.

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

i think its closer to 7 and 12

[@raptzar1148]

Fr fr , half of that region is the dessert which is not even habitable

[@jaegybomb]

@@raptzar1148 Israel did a pretty amazing job irrigating the supernova area. I think there is a decent chance it would have gone unused.

[@kavisattva]

​@@raptzar1148 I live in that desert, right in the middle of it - we've got water from desalination, to the points that there are even vineyards and wineries around, olive groves etc. Of course that's still only a small part of it, but the population of the Negev has gone up incredibly since 1948 first of all thanks to the National Water Carrier project. This growth is both for Bedouins and Jews. Indeed most of the Negev is still not populated and a desert, but the progress made in 75 years is incredible. Maybe in 1950 you'd be correct in calling the place where i live "uninhabitable". Today we have farms.

[@raptzar1148]

@@kavisattva I did mean before all this technology made it like this but that's pretty cool

[@omryr]

Jews owned 7% of the land and the Arabs 12% prior to the partition plan, what a stupid argument he was making there…

[@theomnidegenerate5236]

I’m not sure if that was a stupid argument or a purposely manipulative one because if you hear that someone owned 7% of the land the immediate thing that comes to mind is it therefore the other side owns the other 93%. So the only question is, did he get duped by propaganda or is he espousing it on purpose?

[@ShmoeBoe]

If it was propaganda from him he wouldn't talk to destiny here, he definitely believes what he's saying. ​@@theomnidegenerate5236

[@omryr]

@@theomnidegenerate5236 you would only think that if your understanding of land ownership is extremely limited in which case you would probably not be debating online with such courage, he either knows he is lying and hopes people don’t check or he is very stupid and have never actually read more than a few headlines and saw the fake green map or something and took it as reality, if it’s the latter then it’s so much sadder.. Also something people tend to never mention is that while Israel got 55% of the land, it also had 45% Muslim population within its borders while the Arabs would have gotten 0 Jews in their state, and another fact is that the vast majority of the land allocated to the Jews was barren desert land which is to this day about 90% uninhabited.. it’s called the Negev desert which is almost 50% of Israel and is housing ~8% of the population…

[@roymarshall_]

​@@theomnidegenerate5236with "academic" pro-Palestinians it's usually done intentionally

[@coenhealy-johnson5194]

Whats your source for this?

[@BrandinReggio]

The first dude got so ballsy when the "ph.d" showed up. It's wild how is energy and attitude changed.

[@Theorbitaldog]

im an hour so before phd guy shows up. he seems pretty chill so far. can't wait to see him go unhinged when backup arrives.

[@MobileNasty]

​@@Theorbitaldog what'd you think?

[@Krapahirlin]

It's fucking insane the personality switch. He was never respectful again

[@FringeSpectre]

I think it was funny how he tried to micromanage some things. "He only needs a book, don't give him an actual answer, be as vague as possible PHD Historian."

[@socomchamp00]

Skipped the birth of my first born son for this.

[@xlol2429]

Based on

[@LoudWaffle]

Gotcha, anything

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

Chad 💪

[@komlat253]

Real men let the wife take care of the baby😂 what a giga red pill Chad.

[@RivetCityRamsey]

He's rolling over in his crib.

[@GraysPeakBand]

"I'm an engineer with a specialty in heat transfer" Client: okay, so what type of piping would be good for this type of water heating system? "UH, WHAT, YOU EXPECT ME TO GO AND FIND ALL OF THE MATERIALS INDEXES AND POINT TO THE SPECIFIC ALLOY COMPOSITION OF THE PIPING YOU WOULD NEED?" Literally yes or you're fired.

[@asockorsomething335]

@mr-h6x Bro he addressed this. He said you don't need to remember the exact page, just more or less where it is. And he gave him time to look for it. If you told me that in game of thrones books tyrion killed his father with a sword, and I said "no he did it with a crossbow" and you asked me to find the quote, it would be ridiculous if I said "just read all the books". It would also be unreasonable to expect me to remember the page, but you bet your ass if you give me 10 minutes I will find the exact passage.

[@matsab7930]

@mr-h6xfor an ENORMOUS claim like the one being made I would expect you to have a citation on-hand, or at least be able to point approximately to the location in a book your supporting evidence is present… You’re acting like this was some minor claim, but it isn’t. He’s suggesting Israel didn’t actual agree to the 47 partition plan at all; that they lied to the world about it, but never intended to honour the agreement if it went through. That’s a massive claim, and when you make massive claims which run counter to the accepted history, you ought to be able to refer to SOMETHING. If I’m researching the moon and I claim to a fellow astrophysicist that the moon actually originated in the Kepler belt, rather than originally being part of the earth, they would be completely valid in expecting an immediate citation to back that claim… exceptional claims require evidence. Ultimately, your summary of the conduct of the guests highlights your personal bias. It’s quite clear that you have an issue with Steven, because frankly he remained remarkably calm in the face of a 2v1 debate against two people incapable of sticking to a point or discussing the facts of history in good faith.

[@maxwellsdemon10]

@mr-h6xi have no idea how you can say, that it is unreasonable for a professional to be able to provide a book that supports their claim. I'm a mathematician and I have a bad memory. I don't know most definitions or theorems by hand, but I sure as fuck know where to look for them and can provide a citation in a reasonable time. He said over and over again, that the claim he was making was super basic, undergrad stuff, that everyone agrees with him and that this is undisputed. If that is the case, then it should be in tons of books. I wouldn't wail and argue if you asked me to provide a source for a basic Analysis theorem. I would simply provide the source in one of the multiple books about this subject that I have. Looking these things up, knowing where they are and how to find them is expected of a professional.

[@garythecyclingnerd6219]

@mr-h6xIf you’re a PHD, you should be able to articulate how to quickly find the information, however. I expect this of sophomore year engineering students. It’s unreasonable to have a photographic memory of things but if you can’t even begin to narrow the search verbally at the PHD level then I begin to question your accreditation or your disposition in the argument.

[@asockorsomething335]

@mr-h6x It took me 30 seconds to find on google which chapter and book that conversation takes place. It took me 3 minutes to find the exact quote. And with gollum we're talking about just some random meaningless conversation. The guest claims there's evidence for a extremely important planned betrayal that there's a historical consensus about. If it's so important, it should be easy to find. It's not about finding a quote about someone's color of his favorite shoes in a specific year. It's about something that's a big deal that there's a historical consensus about. Worst case scenario, you say "the letter is quoted in book X and book Z, in one of the chapters discussing events leading to Y", I don't recall where exactly. It would take me more than an hour to find but it's there because it's out of order. If you read those chapters in one of those books you will find it. But, that would only work if it was some insignificant thing, not a planned betrayal that there's a historical consensus about in a conflict that everybody debates about. That shit would be on every tiktok educational video about Israel conflict if it was true.

[@flavanscreech]

Crazy how that Dominic Andre's guy attitude shifted so much as the numbers changed. Without the professor, he was super respectful. With the professor, he became aggressive and confrontational. When Lonerbox showed up, he shut the hell up and was meek.

[@EBookCo]

It's wild how these pro-hamas "leftists" make the same anti-immigration arguments conservatives do,

[@rohanrajput3765]

Nice observation

[@Awaken_To_0]

Horseshoe stays winning

[@Nyingmaba]

True but, tbf, it goes both ways, when Israeli supporters talk about demographic danger

[@ryzikx]

the leftists are actually alt right if you replace white people with nonwhites

[@Awaken_To_0]

@@Nyingmaba not really. Israel actually is at war with Hamas. The US is not at war with Mexico. A bunch of Hamas fighters flooding in actually is an invasion. Mexican migrant workers sneaking across the border to pick fruit is not.

[@nightblood6]

“I’m going to bring on the historian to cite to everything and be very factual” that did not in fact happen

[@kevincant88]

Hahhaha 🤣 Quality wording, too true though.

[@itamarchen1]

The Palestinian argument that Jews just "passed through" the land of Israel hundreds of years ago and now they belong to Europe (and every other Arab country from which the Jews were expelled post 1948), is a double edged sword. Jews were expelled from their land centuries ago, and the Arabs came to occupy the land centuries later. So the same argument can apply to the Palestinians... they are just people that passed by and came from somewhere else, and now they should go back to their other Arab lands. It's a silly argument that ignores how every country was ever created, out of war and conquest. The Jews have a very strond claim to the land of Israel. Every archaeological site in this land proves it. It is definitely a better claim than any european has for the lands of South America. So should we not demand any person of European descent to leave South America and go back to Europe? Same for America. And where's the global justice in giving the entire North American continent to a few million Native Americans?

[@SoldierGeneral64]

The idea the Jews had a very long claim to the land is nonsense. We don't go you once lived there 100s of years ago or in this case more than that so you have claims. The claim was due to UN mandate.

[@gilgamesh2832]

@@SoldierGeneral64 They have the longest claim, because indigeneity is site specific criteria that the Jewish people meet on all accounts, five to be more precise. Their ethnogenesis is in that land, their entire culture, language, spirituality all tied to the land. Palestinians have nothing. They're native to the Hijaz, which is where they should shove off to.

[@itamarchen1]

man you are clueless. My great great great grandmother was born in Jerusalem. When digging up archaeological sites in Israel, the languages found are Hebrew and Aramaic and other semetic languages mainly, not Arabic. Jews have been living in this land for 3000 years. This is our motherland. That doesn't mean that Palestinian don't have a claim here also. They absolutely do, and I hope that some day they would accept Israel exists and will form a country of their own and live in peace with us (just like the Israeli Arabs have done and today are a healthy part of our society).

[@SoldierGeneral64]

@@ivansyomkin2156 An exaggeration, Ottoman Empire for example didn't want Jews coming in there. That said you are conflating with individuals living there who are Jews with Jews having a claim to a country there regardless of pop size. Doesn't make any sense.

[@SoldierGeneral64]

@@ivansyomkin2156 you are confusing things claim to said land as a country is per UN partition plan. Ownership of land as an individual is also not ownership as a country for either group. You are also pretending additional land was taken only through conquest, but that is incorrect given settlements ethnic cleansing in West bank. You are also claiming Palestine as a country from UN partition plan yet somehow they acted as a country in attacking Israel? Other Arabic countries and militia isn't Palestine. Isreal didn't even take Gaza or West bank as part of wars so you are conflating things.

[@ek5273]

"I'm an academic, I have degrees" - Pro-Palestine debater "I WENT TO COLLEGE!" - Plankton from SpongeBob SquarePants

[@Gary_oldmans_left_nut]

Plankton was right and spongebob is an idiot

[@bassdreamer91]

I AM A SURGEON DR WONG

[@howdareyou41]

"Israel needs to give Palestine back to Palestinians" - White guy living in America with no intention of ever giving back land to Natives

[@forgetaboutme6265]

plankton is a genius. he is not

[@seamusmaguire2160]

If he’s such a genius then why can’t he figure out the Krabby patty formula? Why does he have to keep resorting to trying (and failing) to steal it? It’s a fuckn’ hamburger recipe, how hard can it be?

[@simontrober7487]

97 minutes in: Western Empires bad. Non Western Empires good. The Ottoman Empire, the Hashemite Kingdom, the Arab Empire by anti-Israel side is all sweetness and light, while the British, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Dutch, Belgium Empires are imperial colonialists. The West is seen as evil by these guys. Historically countries have none of the same values we do today. e.g. ethnic cleansing isn't a concept they had one hundred years ago. Historians look at history with objective fact. A PHD historian should not put their political spin on history. He did. It was a simple anti-Israel stand. They argue that Israel and Zionism as a unique example to treated differently from all other conflicts.

[@Namesaredangerous]

Yes the bias from these people is strong. Destiny isn't even looking to argue this hard, he argees Palestinians had justification to fight. They could just talk about that and have common ground. Where these people go crazy is that destiny also sees that Jews can fight back... and when they did they just kept winning which is really the issue. if shit went the other way around you wouldn't hear a peep. Pure copium from anit-westren/ capitalists. Don't even get me started on the historian claiming kingdoms/empires were more tolerant than modern nations.💀

[@almostafa4725]

@@Namesaredangeroushow are Jews fighting back if they are the aggressor?

[@Arphemius]

@@almostafa4725 They're not the aggressor. Justification to fight in this context is not self-defense. Destiny is wrong on them having justification, first of all, but he also acknowledges that if someone launches a genocidal campaign against you, you can very well defend yourself.

[@hismajestylordsmenkhare5878]

It was all the Jews and his still kept up that narrative even when he was given a quote of Arab leaders literally saying we will go to war if the partition goes ahead, then the Arabs attack but that was all the Jews fault obviously

[@puffdaddy69]

@@almostafa4725I’m sorry you guys lost

[@matsab7930]

2:05:00 - this historian is just lying… there was a consistent pattern of racial and ethnic supremacy of Turks over all other ethnic groups living in the Ottoman Empire, essentially since it’s conception. They certainly viewed Arabs as inferior. Imagine being a phd historian and having a worse understanding of history than someone who studied a stem subject… In all seriousness, people like this make me lose a lot of respect for those holding degrees in social sciences. It shouldn’t, but the intelligence bar you’re required to meet for these degrees is just… lower… and it really does show.

[@Anjover]

I don’t think all social sciences should be lumped into same category. For example, if you study economics at any high ranking research university, you’re required to take more than a year worth of just mathematics and statistics, and almost all the courses thereafter focus on applying those skills to research questions. I got my butt kicked way more in graduate level structural econometrics than I ever did in any engineering courses (granted I only took undergraduate ones). For the softer ones, I definitely agree. Its not that there are no extremely intelligent political scientists, sosiologists or historians (although history is techically part of humanities) - there certainly are - but the bar for decent success in these fields really is much lower as you said.

[@ilyarake9844]

THATS A PROFESSOR AT THE COLLEGE I WORK AT OMG. No way Chapman university the dude w the beard. He’s been shit posting since his classes on the Middle East got canceled by the admin this year omfg

[@tiggerbane4325]

Wait why did it get cancelled?

[@kmartinquadeuce]

He was shit posting before that. That's why he had to stop his run for Congress

[@redbird1928]

Oh shot- who the hell green lit hiring THAT guy.

[@zacharytarnow7290]

Oh no he’s an actual professor??? Imagine the shit he’s teaching his students

[@kmartinquadeuce]

@zacharytarnow7290 From what I could find, it's all about fascism... so kinda par for the course of a far left leaning professor. I saw some lectures he did while looking him up, and he's big into putting anybody with conservative ideas into the fascist box. I dunno, but civil discourse doesn't appear to be his strong suit.

[@KrookedSoulz]

"We all owned hundreds of thousands of acres." That's the funniest thing I've heard all day.

[@aelfgernon7729]

Israel is around 8630 square miles of land. If we put his family's ownership at 100,000 acres then his family owned around 1.8% of the landmass of modern-day Israel. In good faith, though, the "we" he was referring to was probably all Palestinians, and he just jumped to it too quickly after talking about family.

[@KrookedSoulz]

@@aelfgernon7729 and it's still an outrageously dumb claim to make.

[@bhssssss1]

@@aelfgernon7729 he said his family all owned 100s and 100s tho… so he made it sound like they owned fucking 500k acres

[@aelfgernon7729]

@@bhssssss1 I agree, I just used the lowest number conceivable from the words to show that it is still a ridiculous claim.

[@Kouros-y2t]

He ist half-palestinian and his brain doesn't work when it comes to this issue. I don't even think he's fully consciously lying, he will just say shit and make himself believe it.

[@deathbysloth]

"The Zionists were expecting to use Palestinian violent responses as an excuse to expand territory." "You're surprised the Palestinians would respond violently after having their country taken away?" No. That's kinda the point, though. Sometimes you can have a perfectly moral, rational, justified reason to do something that still makes your life worse.

[@SkroomJuice]

“I have little patience when people call me a liar” then probably stop fucking lying LOL

[@EmperorDxD]

😂😂

[@TheRainsRuined]

Literally LOOOOOOL

[@pengwin_]

MmmmmOhmyGod...Stop Fuckin LYIN!

[@britchin]

does that happen often? where there’s smoke there’s usually fire

[@SkroomJuice]

@@sockrabbtt which would be equally as accurate!

[@pete6300]

@ 13:17. Many Indians and Pakistanis had property confiscated by newly formed governments. Palestinians aren't special if you weren't allowed to claim your land by the new government you're out of luck. The fuedal lands of india and Pakistan were also confiscated from the nobility. It wasn't just the super special Palestinian Arabs that were expected to suck it up immediately after WWII. That was the largest population shift in recorded history.

[@EmperorDxD]

It happens to everyone

[@turtlepope7802]

People fundamentally misunderstand how private land ownership works and it drives me insane. The land your house is on is not yours. You didn't buy the land, you bought a lease to the land. That's a contract you have with the government saying only you can use that land. You must still abide by the law inside your land. Law enforcement can legally get a permit to enter your land forcefully. To my knowledge, every single country reserves the right to use eminent domain (or some similiar mechanism) if necessary and you must sell your lease (conditions may apply). And if your country collapses via invasion, well this new country has no agreement with you, sorry. It sucks, that's why we try to avoid wars, but that's life.

[@pete6300]

@@turtlepope7802 this is so true. The mining rights lawsuits reinforce this fact.

[@DonXardas]

​@@turtlepope7802yep. Exactly. And what is even funnier, in this case the arabs were not invaded by other. They started the war and lost it. So they have nobody to blame but themselfs.

[@areichental]

But gaza bro. Aparthied!!!

[@Toanleigh]

Blood and soil arguments are sooo weird because it seems the majority of people will only go as far back as benefits them.

[@MsHumanOfTheDecade]

plus it ignores on the ground realities. who fucking cares who lived there, harm reduction is way more important. reparations for past harm will always be secondary to not causing any new harm.

[@pickle1200]

It’s so frustrating to listen to. So we just revise all the history after so you get your land back? It’s so stupid. So many wars have been lost now I don’t even understand why every person arguing the Palestinian side has to go back over all this. We get it you have bad feelings about it your family lost land. But that justifies all the terrorism all the opposition all the mess? 😑 How do both move into the future?

[@nkinash321]

​@tanszism noooo my friend because harm reduction now might set a precedent roe one side to become so vulnerable that they get genocided. That's why harm reduction doesn't work for ukraine. They got attacked russia wants to topple their existance and colonize them. Reducing death counts now can cause them to become a colony and suffer another holodomor. This globalist idea of harm reduction is sooo dumb in practice because the only way it works is if both sides agree to it. It's why multiculturalism doesn't work. While biritish are saying look how cultural we are our most common male name in schools is Muhammed and our favorite meal is chicken Tika Masala and at the same time muslim groups are planning how to take over and push through sharia... peoplenwhobthink like u cause massive problems in society. Understand this, if ure playing chess while everyone else in the room is sharpening their knives ure only reducing violence until all their knives are sharp

[@issac7787]

fax

[@Kouros-y2t]

Apart from the problem of timeline, it's strange that the racial idea of ​​blood and soil suddenly becomes acceptable when the people being discussed are arabs. I never heard these people talk about the Greeks having the right to take back Istanbul.

[@AtlasCrafted]

Ill sum up this conversation. PhD guy; *says thing* Destiny; "Okay so *repeats what PhD guy said* " PhD Guy; "Im confused thats got nothing to do with what I said." He does this probably 30 times

[@Knowledgeequalspower1]

Taking a Destiny fans summary of a Destiny debate is like asking trump to decide if he’s guilty

[@AtlasCrafted]

@@Knowledgeequalspower1 I sincerely pity you if you think this "PhD" holder did literally anything else

[@AtlasCrafted]

@@Knowledgeequalspower1 Oh wait, just another tate nipple sucker. Neat. I notice many hate comments on this video come from people who are openly tate fans. Damn, a whole fanbase is that upset they wait for every Destiny video to come out just to get clowned in the comments

[@LalaWatches]

​@@Knowledgeequalspower1 Anti fans making bad comparisons based on upset feelings is as bad as the conservatives when they whine about Chem trails turning frogs trans.

[@Knowledgeequalspower1]

@@AtlasCraftedI don’t know I haven’t watched it yet but we’ll see

[@rubssi8741]

Watching this live gave me permanent brain damage

[@Johnjackjack]

When phd dude held up a book I lost all hope in humanity future.

[@Senpatriarch]

This debate spurred me to actually participate in DGG it’s so ogre

[@PixelPenguin77]

what doesn't kill you makes you stronger 🗿

[@drick2480]

Is it worth watching? or at least did you learn anything new?

[@hill4393]

@@drick2480big NO, historian is beyond brainwashed and half truths the whole time, if you wanna get some laughs in then yeah, but i learned nothing new from this whatsoever

[@yaaraamozig4862]

I have no idea how Destiny survived this debate, but kudos to him

[@Jedscorp]

These guys are the biggest clowns on tik tok they just block everyone who disagrees with them. The phd guy blocked me for asking for a source when he said the second intifada was mostly peaceful. Dominick is the same. They live in a. Bubble of their own making.

[@John-bravooo]

2nd intifada was so violent and murderous it literally blackpilled 50% of israelis. Israelis were very liberal to the arabs up until then. It destroyed the peace camp. I bet these same folks fetishize US law enforcement violence though. These people arent scholars they're activists and liars.

[@mrmouse4121]

2nd intifada!? WOW, I thought he was insane but holy shit.

[@kmartinquadeuce]

I looked into the Liam O'Mara feller. He stopped running for Congress because his staffers wrote a letter of condemnation against him. He replied to Candace Owens with a Klan hood on social media.

[@kmartinquadeuce]

Look up why Liam O'Mara stopped running for congress

[@Jedscorp]

@@kmartinquadeuce wow 🤯 I remember this !! This is the guy that tweeted the klu klux klan hood to Candace Owen’s 🤦‍♂️. California 42nd district dodged a bullet.

[@skyefox]

ADHD>PhD

[@Sirkazuma23]

haha this cracked me up! good one!

[@mriyoi]

When a PhD historian meets an ADHD historian (he’s on Vyvanse), the PhD one stands no chance

[@TheRainsRuined]

Only thing stronger is Autism. And we are in luck

[@ericgutierrez247]

Omg 😂

[@Joe_mammma]

I did chuckle

[@SweetSensi1]

Palestinian dude is soooo desperate for the GOTCHA

[@zachrengifo932]

I love how when someone who is just as “read” as they were and able to get them to concede he had to leave in 5 minutes was funny as hell. And then when lonerbox called him out for laughing when they got caught lying.

[@dandelionclearwind3718]

Oh yeah? BTW he's incredibly educated about the subject and hes half Palestinain himself talking to someone who jsut read two Wikipedia pages about the subject. So yeah Destiny got absolutely exposed! And so does his own fans who doesn't know anything about this subject and supporting him blindly!

[@Drigallski]

@@dandelionclearwind3718 give me an example

[@randallstone1567]

Interesting how this was somewhat civil before the PHD historian showed up.

[@adriancabezas]

I noticed that too! Dominic was super friendly & careful and then his buddy showed up & he got tough all a sudden lol

[@randallstone1567]

@@adriancabezas I definitely enjoyed him fumbling when LonerBox called him out 😂

[@SB-se7vb]

@@adriancabezas Or it's being a wolf in sheep's clothing...

[@RetreatSequel]

​@@adriancabezasi think it's a combination of cowardice and group think

[@MNBLUE1]

Even though they were bad faith as fuck, I feel like this is far more educational & productive than the one with Finklestein. Thank you for the fire and passion.

[@Potatoarmy12]

Was thinking the same thing

[@LoudWaffle]

That’s a rock-bottom bar to clear… but we take what we can get 😂

[@OlYables]

Mister Borelli...

[@LasNoches86]

The PhD guy is right: nationalism or supremacy along ethnic lines never happen before the 18th centry: the romans didnt do it, the muslims dont have it in the korran, the huns never cause mass migrations, and the mongols were just trading silk.

[@apgaismiba]

True , but ive always wondered what about the uprisings that were part of the empire. E.g: Balkans trying to resist against thr Ottoman occupation etc, isn't that some form of nationalism?

[@AlTarif]

@@apgaismiba Balkan resistance to the Ottomans stemmed from the fact they were Christians and didn't want to be converted to Islam and live as second class citizens paying the Jizya and having their children stolen and converted. They didn't have a nationalist identity so much as they had a religious identity.

[@apgaismiba]

@@AlTarif I know that but later it was tied heavily with nationalism. You can not find a Serbian that is extremly nationalist and not orthodox, same with Bosnians and Albanians from Macedonia with Islam. Also if they were having religious identitiy, why did they not support Skenderbeg against ottoman occupation? I

[@-BlazeK-]

I like how every "historian" Destiny asks a source for goes "i read too much, so trust me bro". And when Destiny has to correct them, then its "Oh you just wikipedia'd that, I've been an expert for 500 years, therefore i don't have to justify my statements to you". Edit: Lonerbox coming in with receipts and dismantling the historians existence in 20 minutes is hilarious.

[@connerpaul9401]

Any historian who can't beat someone in an argument shouldn't be a historian, Destinys been at this for 6 months and the historian isn't catching him on anything.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

​@@connerpaul9401 I am curious what it would look like for Destiny to try and fight hard for the palestinian position against Morris. My assumption is that Morris would hold up to scrutiny better with his database brain (that has a "source search" button). Though idk if it would look brutal or not.

[@IAteYourSandwich]

@@haruhirogrimgar6047 That would be a LOT more interresting that all of this gobbledygook.

[@DatBoi-hz8fd]

These guys really destroyed destiny’s argument that college degrees have value

[@IAteYourSandwich]

💀💀💀💀💀💀

[@bcsb]

Being a fantastical moron to own Mr. Borelli.

[@scaledsilver]

Prussian school system meant to make you a simple non creative worker for industrialization. The system never changed, It’s full of lies. You can’t get funding for any research that counters the mainstream academic narratives. If governments politics involve the schools teachings they manipulate the school. We were herded into this trap since kindergarten. College is a debt slave trap to indoctrinate you into the box.

[@scaledsilver]

“Be simple, do what you’re told and mindlessly defend our propaganda, psyops and abuse, we own you slave”

[@thesebone5]

😂

[@krishnaveganathar]

Why aren’t they protesting all the countries in the Middle East and North Africa that expelled every single Jew?

[@ericthegreat7805]

Ill do you one better. Why arent they asking for all white people and arabs who came to the new world to go back to their country? Including the descendants of immigrants who have no ties to their country. Since this is what they are asking Israelis to do. But at least Israelis have a historic claim to the land, unlike whites and Arabs in the new world.

[@Jishiswasmith]

“Citation? I’m a historian.”

[@EmperorDxD]

He makes history apparently 😂😂😂

[@TheRainsRuined]

You forgot the best one: "My bookcase" Actually nvm, it's: "My books" He corrected us

[@Jishiswasmith]

@@TheRainsRuinedya I just got to the part where he’s all “you want to talk about the Turkish genocide? I got a whole shelf on the Turkish genocide bro”.

[@TheRainsRuined]

@@Jishiswasmith Literally lol, that's the PhD's evidence: "BOOKSHELF" or "BOOK" When they go into the book, it proves Destiny right, funny enough

[@LoudWaffle]

@@EmperorDxD When they take the "history is written by the victors who write it" way too literally. 😅

[@topicmodellingproject9002]

Actually pissed me off when this guy was struggling to point to a source for his claim. I understand not being able to recall exact sources for obscure facts or single quotes but he made it seem like this fact is widely accepted and reported on in the literature and came from an abundance of sources. It's also such a strong claim and if it were true and backed up by enough evidence totally changes like the entire historical narrative I've seen so far. It should be something he can easily and immediately cite given his credentials.

[@Dejavu_1101]

Thanks!

[@akrobatas2316]

Im from Europe only a few times i engaged with experts or professors my experience was outstanding. If you ask them a question and they have a book they wont just point to it. They will stop talking open the book find the relevant information show it to you and read it to you. I cant comprehend how a professor in an attempt to support his argument during a four-hour session read a quote that actually contradicted his stance. Im not sure if this is an internet thing or an american thing but i am shocked. I dont understand what the hell...

[@EmperorDxD]

Nah it's a fraud thing What you said is correct that uselly how they are

[@solanumlycopersicum5594]

I am currently studying law at uni. I will say this: Professors generally answers all kinds of questions, but not the ones asked of them. :D (in lectures)

[@bazooka712]

@@EmperorDxD If it quacks like a duck...

[@bazooka712]

@@solanumlycopersicum5594 Lectures aren't a particularly good environment to dive down into details. But in a 4 hour debate, you absolutely have to point at something.

[@mikek128]

In the US on their topic it’s often the same thing. The problem with a lot of Palestinian scholars along with scholars of other groups with victim mentality is that they have to bend the world to their bias

[@ericc7286]

I think the most frustrating thing in this convo is most pro Palestinians always choose to cherry pick events that look bad but fail to give the whole context of the event. Even the sources /quotes they choose to recite from, they always leave out the preceding statements that flesh out what actually happened. As a historian they’re tasked with being able to gather data from various SOURCES. The fact that this guy was so insulted at providing the source speaks volumes. The Palestinian even said he’d bring the historian on to provide sources and citations @ 36:22 so he was totally full of shit. Also ignoring the full context of quotes makes you not a historian, but an actual propagandist. Acknowledge the full history and not just what suits your narrative.

[@govno5378]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@billybitchcakes8611]

​@@govno5378?

[@heinshaaine8153]

Both sides are guilty of doing this.

[@meganandrickys]

​@@heinshaaine8153 sure, but is Destiny guilty of doing this? We're talking about this convo and the pro Palestine side that represents themselves in convo with Destiny.

[@roymarshall_]

​@@heinshaaine8153wow amazing commentary thank you for your insight

[@SchiwiM]

one of his arguments I've heard multiple times recently, that the Palestinians don't actually mind the Jews in their area but they dislike the european Jews moving there... So their argument against Israel is basically racism now

[@dragondahl3828]

It's not even true in the first place. Muslim arabs have been at times oppressing, at times somewhat peacefully co-existing with local jewish (and christian) populations, though they imposed a tax on them for not being muslims (jizya). This idea that the Middle East was a pluralist utopia is a complete fairytale, it's more complex than that.

[@saarlan6455]

"I have many books". "Quote me one". "How dare this question be asked of me".

[@heinshaaine8153]

"In a hole i the ground there lives a hobbit", and the most epic start of a novel series: ""The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed."

[@huntergraham2380]

Hello

[@kieran8266]

It is completely insane how Destiny, the guy who supposedly knows nothing about this, is able to effortlessly bring up quotes out of THEIR OWN SOURCES to refute them, when they can barely cite a single paragraph that shoots down the very argument they're trying to make

[@polpol2739]

Thats why knowing the Use of Logic is as importent as reading

[@GKJusticar55]

Bro I did not realize it was this horrible live.

[@GWOT_]

Because all it takes is looking at the sources instead of taking an opinion based off a TikTok video like most Pro-Pallys

[@dsfnemky812]

I think you’re giving him too much credit. Even being on his side, it was clear that his lack of knowledge was making him Bite bullets he didn’t need to. And he just looked plain autistic when going “that actually supports MY point”. It was specially jarring because the loner box guy came in and immediately, as the chat said, started cooking. Losing or at least not being able to make a concrete case from when you’re factually in the right is an indictment of either your knowledge or rhetoric skills.

[@polpol2739]

@@dsfnemky812 destiny was correct in those "actually it makes my point" incidents - the lines destiny red from pepe admit that israel accepted the pertition. which Liam said israel didnt. later said israel accepted but in expectation of breaking it. which later destiny read from the source liam said to read where it says israel accepted but with knowing the arabs would start a war

[@brandonnightingale974]

im sorry one of the first sentences from this PhD historian was that history "is an international discipline that matters not where you are from". he has to just be legitimately trolling right???? what university possibly hired this guy, or better which one gave him the PhD

[@govno5378]

🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@MADDcartman]

Explain to me like I’m dumb. (I am)

[@BestTheQuiz]

Uh I’m from the uk but studied history of a load of different countries, so yes it’s an international discipline? How’s it domestic if not international?

[@BestTheQuiz]

If you’re studying British History that is different from History. History literally is an international disciple. I am from the U.K. yet two dissertations on the US so unless you guys have give us our colony back I’m pretty sure you’re an idiot

[@brandonnightingale974]

@@BestTheQuiz Lmao if you studied history I would hope you could use fkn context clues to figure out my criticism isn’t of it being called ‘an international discipline’. It was the profs interpretation of what that meant (which I literally included in my comment btw ???) that I had a problem with. Do you ALSO believe history and perspectives on it are the same across everywhere, regardless of background?

[@BrownCookieBoy]

Modern PhD historian = USB without a search function.

[@pinkerproductions7420]

I can't possibly get any more blackpilled on the state of academia.

[@chiefspartan7360]

Half of the issue was one side saying “Pearl Harbor didn’t cause the US to enter WW2 because it was really Japanese expansion.”

[@josephmother2659]

@@pinkerproductions7420if you ever had faith in for-profit institutions that tell you what to think then you are not a clown, you are the entire circus. Has there ever been a “PhD” student that was not fed information that has been heavily edited and censored to show certain parties in a certain light? It’s the name of the game

[@astroid99]

​@@pinkerproductions7420 Try to look more into the academics who focuses more on their work, rather than public appearances. In my experience they tend to be more focused on the education than the money/popularity.

[@pinkerproductions7420]

@astroid9924 The issue is not financial incentives, it's retardation inherent in the system.

[@user-cd4ms6cf8l]

Alrighty! I was mindfucked once and now i get to do it again! And then we get lonerbox with the steel chair in the end

[@tiggerbane4325]

God I can’t wait to hear the sound of the steel chair.

[@turiguiliano9225]

Bah god is that Lonerbox’s music!

[@kaneohehaole7003]

Crazy how the first guys demeanor completely changed from cordial and understanding to a hostile attitude and wanted to dogpile with the historian.

[@XEimaNte]

Watching it live, Lonerbox showing up was like a godsend. Spent hours banging my head on the screen feeling gaslit by the anarcho commie professor and then Lonerbox showing up like in that Mercy Overwatch gif to confirm that YES, YES HE WAS DISINGENUOUS. GOD.

[@martenstaal2688]

Guy has gotten to PhD by literally constantly claiming that "I read it in a book" and "I am a stickler for accuracy" instead of ever having to provide a source.

[@ZphyraRyuu]

He seems pretty knowledgeable on history over all, but it seems his field of expertise has entirely separated itself from his academic expertise. So I wouldn’t automatically disregard his study in the field in its entirety.

[@ZphyraRyuu]

For example the whole thing concerning the US and France. Where I’d actually believe he sounds like an historian. But that goes out the window with anything regarding Palestinians and Israel. You can also tell how the conversation entirely shifts energy when he’s not just spouting bs.

[@joge2468]

@@harrybellingham98 Not if you go to a decent school, in which case you are expected to produce an original work based on primary source material - letters, journals, contemporaneous notes, etc.

[@hj-ct2qi]

Saying that the national background of a historian making a particular claim isn't at all relevant in the evaluation of a source is asinine. I'm an art history PhD and literally learned in my first ever undergraduate history course about how historians can not only hold unconscious biases based on their backgrounds, but can also use their work as a means of forwarding contemporary political agendas.

[@korithex]

Lonerbox came in clutch

[@Wate]

Who's clutch? ROFLMAO

[@RetreatSequel]

​@@Wateso stupid 😭

[@CerdurTV]

he should've been there from the start imo, instead of asking questions to the monologuing palestine supporters, he could ask lonerbox and skip to the real answer.

[@PixelPenguin77]

Yup, and here are two hot takes: Destiny is better at arguing for the pro-Palestinian side than most leftists. LonerBox is better at arguing for the pro-Israel side than most zionists.

[@Gno58]

It seems pretty obvious to me he was feeding info to Desitny in a chat for the entire debate though

[@5omewhiteguy211]

2:37:00 I'm going to kill myself so destiny doesn't have to. Destiny-"before 1940 the jews were pretty chill will Britain/mandate" Guy-"no they were not, they were always revolting" Destiny-"in 1937 Britain laid out how they felt about the mandate and said things were chill with the jews." Guy-" no, in 1939, the white papers" Yes. Yes you.... oh I'm going to get banned. This man is infuriating. He just says no then refers to things that agree with Destiny, full stop.

[@orion00]

This. I must be masochistic for staying through the whole debate.

[@DinggisKhaaniMagtaal]

It’s pretty funny to call pogroms and mass killings and hundreds of years of accusations of conspiracies, all of which would lead to one of the most horrifying genocides in history, a “headache”

[@the_that_thing3847]

“This I don’t like so much”

[@spifflord308]

I don’t think I can feed for 5 hours. It’s too much feed. Please don’t make me feed for 5 hours.

[@howdareyou41]

then read. read everything ever first. ok

[@AnthonyNelms]

Feed me. Please

[@rehx4]

NO!!! YOU MUST CONSUME YOUR FEED!!! to feed is good. to feed is life.

[@Bangkonijntje]

I have a desire to withdraw a trillion dollars from my bank, so I made a strategic plan to do that. In fact, I have been doing that for seven days straight, now. And yet, my bank keeps disregarding my withdrawals. But I will not stop! For I am a cartoon character with motivations at the same level of complexity as these two buffoons seem to ascribe to the Israeli people.

[@rickster5922]

Thanks

[@adtastic1533]

I don't believe that guy was a professional historian any more than Joe Rogan is a vaccine scientist.

[@alexmontenegro9991]

The fact that he had to explain the right of conquest to a historian is crazy.

[@RobotJQ]

the young guy snakey. he was pretty reasonable until the professor got there... then suddenly he's pounding his chest.

[@pete6300]

@ 7:54. Destiny needs to remember to cite 70% of historical Palestine/Judea Summaria was actually given to Jordan. Then the remaining land was supposed to be given to the Jews but Arabs rejected that so it was divided again.

[@niconeitorrr]

i gotta say, gotta admire that PhD dude, he was able to get a PhD without learning how to do citation, the absolute unit released his PhD paper without using APA, what a gigachad

[@IAteYourSandwich]

💀💀

[@joge2468]

4:28:36 Survival was the motivating factor from the beginning, even more so than Jewish nationalism. The feeling was, shit’s getting worse and worse for us; there’s no way this ends well. We (the Jews) simply will not survive as minority communities. We need our own country where we are sovereign. You can see Ben Gurion getting more and more desperate throughout the early 1900s. First you’ve got the pogroms in Russia and then the progressively draconian removal of civil liberties in Europe. Weitzman also saw the writing on the wall. These guys were racing against time.

[@yogafrogz]

This debate was more interesting and engaging than the Lex Finklestein debate. Glad Destiny's moved on from boring E-girl orbiter debates

[@snowsource13]

I appreciated how the anarchist PHD lecturer couldn't even get basic dates correct. Destiny's whole point was that Irgun and the Haganah didn't start fighting the british until post '39 and the "historian" couldn't even provide a counter example of that not being the case. Instead Liam got blustery because he really doesn't know as much as he purports to and is being challenged. Liam kept retreating into more "Zionist bad" conspiracy theories and blaming the Jews for all aggression, while simultaneously infantilizing the Palestinians, when he sensed he was losing the point, rather than standing up a single talking point he made.

[@advance512]

🎉

[@datvo3076]

It was wild to me that he made the assertion that the Zionist paramilitary was fighting the British prior to the white paper that asserts limitations on Jewish immigration. I just thought that was pretty much an accepted fact but watching this dude trying to gaslight in real time how the opposite is accepted and was obvious was quite something.

[@hrolfthestrange]

The iraq thing has a few facets: 1. The official story - that saddam hussein was pursuing WMDs and was sympathetic to radical islamic terrorists. While this is often viewed as having no basis, its true that hussein was a strongman dictator who definitely had gas weapons in the recent past, and had wanted to secure more regional power + more international power(especially to try to negotiate away the crippling sanctions the US had on him post gulf war and the attempted assassination of bush senior). Additionally, in order to shore up sunni base support despite the terrible economic and security conditions, hussein had implemented the 'back to faith' movement which attempted to bring fundamentalist islamic support, by leaning into islam + embeddingn baathists into these communities and orga. Al qaeda in Iraq(not actually part of overarching al qaeda because of disagreement about shiites) was an increasingly active entity in iraq and was theoretically trying to encite a sectarian war for sunnis to win. As a result of the back to faith movement at least some in the baathist party had genuinely mixed or changed loyalties and some lower level baathist officials were likely working with al qaeda in iraq. To some externally it could look like hussein was a supporter of al qaeda, which is why one contigency for invasion was that he arrest and hand over their leadership, we thought he didnt because he was supportive but in actuality he was scrambling to comply but couldnt, in part because the baathist party had been increasingly swayed by these groups. A lot gets into who knew what and when, because all this info was identified in some reports by the US but theres no evidence all the detail filtered up and was known at the highest levels of decision making. 2. The plausible popular alternative motivations - the US, generally and as part of the war on terror wanted to have more direct control and allies in the region and wanted to curtail adversaries like iran more, believing that they would interfere with the war on terror or generally try to take actions adverse to US interests(including but not limited to oil markets), further they thought that since iraq was a majority shia country being generally oppressed by authoritarian sunni government + the generally friendly relationship with the Kurds, that the country would be a good ally if it obtained democratic rule and undermine irans shiite hegemony. As baathist authority in iraq was waning, iran was gaining more influence and power in iraq(much like today) and hussein had been an unreliable friend/foe in the past and now had a real grudge against the US, so this was all a reasonable assessment but maybe a little too imperial/cold war interventionist throwback to be a good argument by itself. 3. My unique theory - So i think there was a possible additional consideration, the idea of fighting the nebulous global war on terror in a favorable battlefield and keeping it away from the homeland. Think about this, its post 9/11, the threat is global terror that cant be boiled down to a single government or group but an ideology that can spread at the speed of light in the internet age. First consideration is, we probably can't truely 'win' this war in the traditional sense because it can always spread therefore the goal is to advantageously manage it. Second is for anyone with these ideas, espeically suicide bombers, their goal is not really practically strategic but spiritual and optical, therefore the likelihood is wherever we have troops is an easier and more accessible target than the actual US that will magnet in terrorist fighters internationally(this happened if you look at the national origin makeup of detainees taken in iraq it was significantly levels if non iraqi people). Third consideration is, where is best to fight/manage a forever war, afghanistan was a terrible location, its mountainous, and has an extreme treachorous climate, the people and customs are more alien and tribal, the infrastructure is medieval, its majority sunni that could be sympathetic to these radical movements, it specifically has a history of extreme resistance to foreign intervention and our only in is through the unreliable and corrupt ally of pakistan. Iraq on the otherhand, has a much more accessible landscape and climate, the people have been influenced signifficantly by english colonialism and western education, its relatively wealthy and has good infrastructure, it has a shia majority who may be courted and the kurds as allies, it has a history of being a country that can play ball with foreign elements and it has more ties with reliable allies like jordan and kuwait and the saudis(with baathism removed). Fourth consideration may have been that iraq is biblical, its generally accepted as the cite of the garden of eden and by some interpretations will the site of a battle at end of days(bush and many advisors were evangelical christians and this could have influenced some vibes in the background) therefore it would be the appropriate venue of the intentional forever war. Additionally around that time there was a fairly popular book about game theory positing the idea of 'win state games' vs 'forever games' and how to differently participate in them which very well may have been known/read by advisors. (I came up with this theory in spring 2013 and used it to predict(to the derision of my friends at the time) that our pullout of iraq would lead to the development of what i called a 'terrorist super group' that was better trained than insurgents or terrorists, had international membership and had international ambitions, and that would likely be less attached to the more anachronistic traditionalism of the taliban/other groups WHICH obviously was proven true by ISIS). All in all im not saying 1, 2, or 3 would be good ideas or justifications(1 was factually untrue in the end, 2 is pretty imperial and too aggressive, 3 is unwise/experimental) but the giant simplifications to 'cuz oil' 'cuz he was dumb' 'cuz post 9/11 the US wanted a big war' 'cuz his dad' are all completely devoid of all thought and get peddled by even people who can think critically.

[@oishikhasan8500]

Interesting read. Thanks.

[@kaligor9252]

Holy shit, why does every pro Palestinian guy have to always argue with such bad faith?

[@DonXardas]

Well probably because that is the only way you can be pro palestinian. You are either uneducated on that topic or you just outright lie.

[@garrymiller3171]

​@@DonXardasyour comment shows it's everyone being bad faith.

[@DonXardas]

@@garrymiller3171 nope, no bad faith. Just basic facts.

[@Scarletpimpanel73]

Because they're wrong.

[@King_Solomon_the_Libtart]

Because you can’t be pro Palestine (not pro Palestinian) without concepts of ethnic nationalism and “blood and soil” type thought. My personal position is that Palestinians should be part of a state and if Israel, Egypt, Jordan etc. don’t want them, they should have their own state.

[@LuigiMordelAlaume]

42:02 "regardless of who sold hundreds of thousands of acres of land to my family, it's ours we have documents!" I got the deed to the Brooklyn bridge, someone put me in touch with this family!

[@WizardofGargalondese]

Destiny becoming a learned man has given him the ability to hammer through the academic gatekeeping to a fantastic degree

[@MisterS.]

My favorite moment was when that guy said its book reading time and read book all over the place

[@Makarov1Vladimir]

Dude was a joke of a professor. I doubt he even has credibility to his name. I've studied from real individuals who've been to Palestine/Israel, worked for governmental organizations worldwide, and have even published books/dissertations on the topic. They are not like this. Please don't assume all individuals in academia are like this. He's a part of a vocal minority whose goal is to silence any opposition with misused quotes, misinformation, and other egregious tactics. Hell. I've written numerous papers, combed through various official documentation, and read books. I'm probably more informed than this loser, and ironically I know Destiny is too.

[@TheGreatJ]

36:36 It's hilarious that so early on he says multiple times "let me bring on a historian so this can be super factual and he can give citations for everything. Then later on he complains when asked for citations and says that because the other dude is a historian that that should be good enough to take the historians interpretations without any citations.

[@SparDa102]

The irony is that this guy is saying that the Jews can't go back to their ancestral lands... While he wants to go back to his ancestral land.

[@harrybellingham98]

i'm Christian and I lay claim to this land also, where's my piece?

[@EmperorDxD]

​@@harrybellingham98you have no claim that is Jewish land they actually found and empty land where no one lived and build a society there it's very unique but it happened The Romans got jealous and killed and took there land

[@ayymao1017]

@@EmperorDxD land can't belong to a religion.

[@EmperorDxD]

@@ayymao1017 Jewish is a people

[@pctombs]

@@EmperorDxDdude… have you read the Old Testament?

[@mambosai8505]

"MASTERS IN WHAT? THUMBSUCKING?!" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 my favorite new favorte Destiny quote!

[@valipunctro]

Saying Israel could not survive economically without foreign aid is such a laughable statement to say. If some of the most educated population in the world with a huge and wealthy diaspora can't sustain itself economically then no state can.😂

[@lumpyrex007]

Yea we know. Zios are every where and have money

[@John-bravooo]

The Palestinians apparently will literally STARVE TO DEATH if they dont get nourishment from their enemies....so hilarious they have the balls to stigmatize Israel...

[@howdareyou41]

Israelis made life out of dust

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

@@lumpyrex007 like george soros oh wait.................

[@darktea3744]

when did he say this?

[@Snapplemonkey]

Watched this live yesterday, and seeing the thumbnail with everyone holding books just made me laugh so hard.

[@Call_me_13]

Minecraft enchantment table ahh debate. The more books that surround your little desk the better apparently 💀💀

[@Ithaca-vv5dy]

Dude when loner box came in, it was so goated

[@WrathOfTheShaft]

When Loner Box showed up at the end like Gandalf I was fist pumping the air!

[@unclegruber5703]

I was edging that entire section. I've never seen so mass assblasting since Big Booty BBC 5

[@TheBaffoonShow]

It’s crazy people still argue “Jews only owned 5% of the land” as if the other 95% was completely owned by the local Arabs. According to British mandate registries 75% was British state domain. 6% owned by Jews, and 8% local Arabs. The 1947 UN suggested split is roughly 55% Arab 45% Jews and is proportional to those values, the Jews accepted it but Arabs wanted all of it

[@TheBaffoonShow]

People like to act like they populated literally every square inch of the land when in reality the vast majority of it was unpopulated

[@Zach0451]

This "historian" guy got way too heated way too quickly when receiving pretty minor pushback. I am dubious as to his credentials, to say the least. I thought academics were supposed to be used to debate and prepared for disagreement. How is he so thin-skinned...?

[@EmperorDxD]

Didn't you hear he doesn't tolerate people calling him a liar

[@Zach0451]

@@EmperorDxD Maybe he shouldn't have lied to begin with? Also, the dude was unhinged almost from the very beginning.

[@EmperorDxD]

@@Zach0451 yipp because he is a liar I also don't think he actually a historian atleast Finkelstein will bring up sources even tho his sources is Benny Morris

[@william4996]

Dinklestein and him are cut from the same cloth.

[@DannyIMCF]

Many academics are actually not used to debate or disagreement at all. This guy definitely looks like one of those professors who's just been teaching history through his own biases for years while never getting truly challenged on anything he says. That's why they get so angry when you give simple pushback lol

[@tecumseh821]

Lmao when the historian comes in and agrees with Steven about the pre 1920 violence

[@tal8871]

3:45:10 My grandfather told me that when the partition plan was accepted, everyone in Israel was celebrating... then very soon, they were being attacked from all sides by the Arabs.

[@flimmerball]

"Why dont you give the 100k to UNRWA?" made my life 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@TheLacedaemonian300]

I watched this whole thing last night, and it was fucking amazing! Destiny went full beast mode like never before. I hope he has that energy level for the big day today.

[@ttecnotut]

Arabs, not Jews, fought against the Ottoman Turks. The land should have been rewarded to the native people who fought, not the Europeans who didn’t fight.

[@grandpasmokes904]

Hussein revolt was barely noticeable. A few British-subsidized Bedouin tribesmen in the Hejaz region comprised Feisal’s forces. Arab opinion was either indifferent or hostile to Hussein’s claims for the Caliphate and the title “King of the Arabs”-these sentiments were recorded in David G. Hogarth’s Arab Bulletin no. 29 (8 November 1916) and no. 41 (6 February 1917). It was the Royal Navy under the direction of Vice-General Sir Royces Weymes and the ground forces (British, C. E. Wilson, Muslim, Jaafar Al-Askari) that captured Yanbo, Ragebh, Jeddah, Mecca and Taif. This is reinforced in the Arab Bulletin no. 7 (30 June 1916). It was the British who invaded Syria in 1917. There’s this mystical atmosphere that one feels when talking about Lawrence of Arabia and his revolt, but it reality it was small and insignificant militarily and only constructed an popular image of widespread revolt when in principle not many participated: all non-Hejazi officers in Hussein’s ranks were either Muslim prisoners-of-war imported from Mesopotamia and the Dardanelles or already exiles-like Major Aziz al-Masri. By the same token, Jews fought as well, albeit a very small amount and for insignificant means as well: Aaron Aaronsohn led the revolt. Your comment is a very common misconception!

[@ttecnotut]

@@grandpasmokes904 the Arabs played a much larger role than the Jews! And yet, the foreign European government controlled the immigration with zero regard to the native population true wishes! Allowed more European foreigners to immigrate in with the intent of creating a nation (while arming themselves) with , again, no regard to the native population l!

[@ttecnotut]

@@grandpasmokes904 we’re not comparing Arab contribution to British contribution . We’re comparing Arab contribution to the War vs. Jewish contribution to the war.

[@grandpasmokes904]

@@ttecnotut then both contributed very little. The main issue at hand was that the British grew to believe that the Arabs, even more than the French, were pivotal to winning against the Ottoman Empire and thus to carouse through the Balkans to bring Habsburg and Hohenzollern Empires to their knees. In 1917, a similar approach toward the Jewish community in the Palestine gained popularity.

[@ttecnotut]

@@grandpasmokes904 you’re not acknowledging the point that if anyone should get the land, it should be the natives who actually fought for it, not the European immigrants who didn’t fight for it. It’s a simple point and your inability to acknowledge it says a lot about your inability to remain neutral. Your analysis of the British contributing more than the Arabs is neither here nor there.

[@alexd4566]

They are just accepting anyone for PhD positions these days huh

[@GeorgePrime77]

This historian has no idea about Greek revolution. My thesis is about the Greek revolution in 1821 and i can tell you Greeks where leaving like slaves for 400 years under Turkish occupation by Ottoman Empire. Greeks where made to pay heavy taxes just because they were Christian Orthodox and these taxes would go away if they accept to become muslims. In Peloponese area rapes and tortures against the Greeks (natives in the are for more than 2k years) were a common thing. If this "historian" lied about all these i can only imagine what lies he told about Israel and Palestine.

[@hismajestylordsmenkhare5878]

Don't forget Greeks living in turkey and Turks living in Greece were just living in harmony, the ottomans came conquered and brought harmony with them XD the historians a nut job

[@MichelleKavarnos]

Did this first guy forget that the Arabs rejected UN resolution 181, when the Jews accepted it. Also, why did his camera keeping zooming in and out. Why doesn't he show these papers he claims to have to show who his family bought their land from.

[@Keviamaya]

The "I read a lot" strategy is a bold one, following on Finkelstein footsteps.

[@harryb12993]

Mr ferrari

[@Keviamaya]

@@harryb12993 Mr Bonacelli pls