Massive Lawsuit Filed Against USPSA

www.slideshare.net/PracticalS...
Benstoeger.com
PSTG.US for digital coaching
Ben Stoeger books on Benstoegerproshop.com
Podcast from pstg:
traininggrouplive-pstg.libsyn...

[@johnb7430]

Since the Delaware company uspsa is "open", you should file for it.

[@kyle.2344]

Holy shit yes!

[@toddianuzzi]

You have to do this, Ben. This is what Doodie was all about, bro!

[@jasonwelch8]

As much as I love USPSA, the management of the organization has become such a joke. Maybe a complete reset is what we need and this may be the start of that.

[@seraphim2525]

🙌🏾🎯

[@charlesdesalme6405]

Many years ago during nationals our squad walked up to a stage Dan A was ROing. 1st words out of his mouth was ‘How many people in this squad can I DQ.’ Of course I told him he was a dck head for even saying that. Of course he was watching me like a hawk when it was my turn to shoot. Keep up the good work Ben.

[@uscmCorps]

Dan A*stin is well known in USPSA circles for being a RO that takes considerable enjoyment from DQ’ing people. I recall at one local match, the first time he showed up, he was regaling the squad about how he has the record for the most DQ’s at any major match in the history of USPSA (I think it was 16 DQs at that major). He said it with such joy and pride. He DQ’ed me later that day for an alleged 180 violation and when discussing the matter I asked how he was able to even see the violation from his vantage point as he was directly behind me, as confirmed from both other squad mates and video. He didn’t care. Later when I posted the video, and not at the time naming the RO involved, I had a flood of DMs from shooters all asking “holy crap, is that Dan A*stin RO’ing you?” He built up a rep at my local club for being a terrible RO and when he himself got DQ’ed he threw a tantrum and left immediately rather than help run stages for the remainder of the day. When I brought this up in person to Troy and my instructors at my CRO course (and following up later in writing to Troy), it was clear Troy didn’t GAF.

[@wcw2793]

People like him have 0 business being in the sport.

[@uscmCorps]

@@wcw2793 agreed. When I was active in uspsa as both a competitor and volunteering as a RO/CRO, I was known as a by the book and strict RO. But I also always kept in mind something I learned from my USPSA RO courses: never make a violation/penalty call unless you are 100% certain of it. 99% isn’t good enough. Never allow overconfidence or hubris to delude you into thinking you are right if insufficient evidence is present to back that up. That has always stuck with me every time I RO and I always tell my shooters they can push it all the way up to 179° if they want. Unless I know for absolute certainty they break the 180, I won’t say anything. Dan A*stin is the type of RO that lacks those key qualities and is incapable of being a RO who’s fair and impartial without personal bias and suffers from overconfidence + narcissism in his every action. He’s bad for the sport and that legacy will always follow him because he has such a terrible history of cräpping unfairly on competitors. Habitually bad ROs need their RO creds revoked.

[@micknelson8991]

Your club needs to ban him from the club for Un sportsman like conduct, never to be allowed back. I know USPSA frowns on this but the troublemakers need to go even if only on the local level.....

[@uscmCorps]

@@micknelson8991 according to USPSA Rule 6.4.4 subsection B and 6.4.5, you can bar someone from a USPSA match if they would disrupt the match or bring disrepute to the sport. The MD would have to submit a detailed report within 7 days to USPSA (6.4.5). But according to the letter of the written law, it would have to be done on a match by match basis. Like you said, probably easier for the club to outright ban him, but they run the risk of said action being contested by the competitor and their club affiliation being revoked (even if their reasoning is sound). The thing about Dan A*stin is that on the national level he has years of bad reputation built up as an RO who makes poor choices and revels in said decisions. Banning him at one club will inevitably just send him to someone else’s club to be their problem till they discover his antics for themselves. It’s implausible to believe Troy and NROI are unaware of this individual’s behavior and yet he’s seemingly allowed to continue unchecked by those in charge.

[@micknelson8991]

@@uscmCorps Thanks for reciting the correct rule for me! I've been a match director at several clubs over the years and wouldn't hesitate to ban someone like him but then there's another trick up my sleeve depending on his actions. As a MD, I wouldn't hesitate to overrule any DQ he brings but I also would refuse him an RO position in my match. Ive known Troy fairly well over the years and wouldn't have an issue with POLITELY engaging him with this issue. Before we got into this electronic age, it wasn't unusual for a match application to be lost in the mail.....🤫 If he came to a match where I had any control, it would be very likely that I would be his RO on EVERY stage and use the rules as written. There's always a way to deal with them! Troy needs to step up!

[@seraphim2525]

This reminds me of an out of control HOA hiding behind bylaws&legalities to “protect the members” while wielding power and crushing people over molehills JUST because they can👉🏾just like we should do with our actual government(but are fundamentally unable to due to its sheer scale and how deep the rot is embedded)👉🏾clean house and start over…

[@rustydime]

thank you for the updates and honest opinions on this Ben!

[@vigormindset]

Thanks for this info Ben.

[@dklee2034]

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely

[@_johnm]

Petty power corrupts absolutely the already corrupt.

[@reegzz]

That t-shirt is an incredible throwback to my youth!

[@Argentum88]

This is nuts. All clubs should just shoot outlaw next year and distance themselves away from the (non) USPSA org until the lawsuit is figured out. Go PCSL!

[@2AlphaCrew]

What’s outlaw?

[@Argentum88]

@@2AlphaCrew Unsanctioned matches using homemade rules. You can use the current USPSA rulebook for example but omit the parts you don't like. The holster strap thing for example is just dumb.

[@crypto1300]

Aloha from Hawaii's 2A community 🤙🏾

[@ATexCate]

And here, we, go. 👏🏼

[@westincarey9814]

Troy is a difficult human. Ive not had much success talking with him.

[@armorers_wrench]

I bought a thumb rest for my Canik TP9SFX Rival from the Ben Stoeger Proshop and I'd just like to say they shipped quickly even though I ordered over Labor Day weekend. Good experience and I do recommend Ben's shop.

[@2844killer]

I had the opposite experience, placed 400+ order, fedex returned it to their shop in TX for some reason. Fedex obviously sucks but that's a different subject... Called Ben's shop, the guy "helping" me was either having a bad day or is a total ass all the time. He ended it by telling me they couldn't reship without having me reorder all the various parts and paying for shipping again. He then blamed me for an incorrect address, which I double checked and was not the case. I enjoy Ben's content, wish I didn't have such a bad experience with his shop.

[@DrewMonge]

Really digging the Hunter S Thompson vibe. 👌

[@667_beast]

Happy, happy, joy, joy.

[@2AlphaCrew]

I have a question… the league your buddy is building (PCSL), is that 2 gun only? I’m not super interested in 2 gun. Do they have carry optics, open, limited, etc?

[@RobinRobertsesq]

It's not 2 gun only.

[@westincarey9814]

Pcsl can be whatever you want it to be. 1 2 or 3 gun

[@2AlphaCrew]

@@westincarey9814 ok. That’s kinda vague. Do they have classification stages? Can I just make up whatever kind of stage I want? Sounds a bit unorganized. How about a league where EVERYONE (nationwide) shoots the same stages? Every month you build a new match and send it out so clubs can set it up. Big matches people need to travel. Simple

[@John.Shepherd]

@@2AlphaCrew the rules are on their website.

[@sssamsamsam9]

@benstoeger item 43 in the filing should be 2022? probably a typo. But if the facts in the filing are correct then thats really bad, even though people volunteer for these roles. there should still be complaince with the law of a State and Country

[@JofoTubin]

Wait, PST is Derrick "my balls were hot" Lewis?

[@Matt.Hemple]

Dan Mccoy is the mass banner

[@RobinRobertsesq]

This was truly hilarious. 😂

[@joshuabaker5712]

Not suprised at all. Im just a mear b class shooter who enjoys (well up last year) USPSA, and buying cool 2011s ect. Shot 10+ majors a season for the last 4 or 5 years. My section has gone down hill since last year, and to me at least the quality and comradery has gone down over the last couple years in A5 and 6 at least. Then add the now much higher price to be a member i could stomach until i seen where the paid employees of USPSA also got a raise along with it. Now i just dont see me spending the money for me and the girlfriend to both be members for the ability to have a USPSA number, be able to shoot majors, and a classification. Just doesnt make sense. I can go shoot as many locals as i want and be money ahead.

[@TeamTange2016]

Would love to join. Waiting for a reset.

[@jbarres80]

Why not start your own Shooting Community with all your knowledge and connections seems like a no brainer

[@captainjackson6135]

how is this lawsuit going?

[@Assclapper69_]

what's going on with the Justine Williams girl?

[@jacob5208]

? Someone fill me in please. She’s one of my favorite PCC shooters

[@bdh821]

Yeah she’s a beast! She crushed it at Nats

[@micknelson8991]

Ive been with USPSA for 29 years, made GM in 2000. Ive seen way too many personalities destroy this sport with their little boy insecurities 🤨 or they just cant shoot well enough to get a win so they screw everyone else. Ive been screwed over by someone who was pissed about their own inabilities and swore I'd never shoot with that person again! Even as a GM LTD, I worked many major matches as an RO instead of shooting the main match to ensure, as best I could, the fairness of the rules for the shooters. These dickheads just keep coming out of the woodwork with something to prove other than their shooting skill! I became an RO in '95 and DQ'd only 1 person at a major match for dropping a loaded gun! I was a Cop for 40 years and learned early on that the authority to enforce rules doesn't mean you get to be a dick just because you can. I won't quit USPSA as it was my joy for a long time. I made a lot of friends traveling to matches around Texas to shoot but now we're flooded by a new generation of shooters who have lost or never learned the principles Jeff Cooper used to start Practical Shooting. I hate to see USPSA faulter but maybe we need to wipe out all those at the top and start over! DVC means "Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (accuracy, power, speed) and I'll continue to shoot a .40 to compete and carry a .45 for EDC! Maybe it's time for the PCSL (Practical Competition Shooting League) but what will keep the dickheads from showing up there? We have a small similar "outlaw match" in Dallas where we had to fire some BOD members who just couldn't stand to lose! I stayed with training LEOs all these years to avoid those folks! Mick A27257

[@toddb930]

I enjoyed your experience and view Mick. I was a member of the organization for 20 years and let it expire last year due to the crap I was seeing and hearing.

[@real.gun.powder.taco44]

I thought Willy Wonka took over your channel 😂

[@erniegarland5689]

Come on over to IDPA and have some fun.

[@johndunbar1678]

Going to shoot my first IDPA match in a few hours. Wont know a single person there. Going to be interesting to see just what I'm walking into.

[@erniegarland5689]

So, how did it go?@@johndunbar1678

[@skylerwilkerson1955]

People in the 2A community need to grow up and stick together we have enough people coming after us and our rights

[@SinistralRifleman]

This isn’t a 2A fight. USPSA isn’t a lobbying group or gun rights group. It’s a sporting organization, that happens to use guns.

[@jeffrolc]

Where can I get those glasses?

[@reubadoob]

Pit vipers

[@drummertroyg]

Can somebody in here give me a recommendation for a shot timer for a newbie….. thank you in advance !!!

[@jediknight1294]

Pocket pro or kestrel

[@glefos3917]

What money is USPSA going to use to fight the lawsuit? They just posted financials and the don’t have an abundance of cash.

[@joshuabaker5712]

They did just raise the cost of membership AND their own pay.....

[@robertwatson818]

TROY MCMANUS???? Is he from Louisiana??

[@mcgowan7100]

Why don't you pile on with your own lawsuit? Strength in numbers.

[@dennisparham5860]

If you just do the right thing, you don't have anything to worry about.

[@thatglockguy17]

Think of how many people started shooting uspsa because of hearing/reading/watching you. Wonder how many people Troy has made quit or give up on uspsa because of him and his behavior.

[@mpkuspsa1664]

The amount of people that hate ben for being honest ruins my hope for the human race, much less our 'sport'

[@robertthomas497]

What if the lawsuit fails? You make it sound like a done deal.

[@RobinRobertsesq]

If it survives initial motions, discovery will be a complete circus. Imagine these clowns being deposed....

[@robertthomas497]

​@@RobinRobertsesqI am certain they will have lawyers to prepare them for discovery just like the plaintiff. It will be good to have "outside" individuals looking at the matters brought to light. I think my core interest is how those without a personal stake see what occurred.

[@robertthomas497]

@@biker1958 It would seem to be that way from what has been said, but this will be an opportunity for a third party to determine what actually occurred in this case. There are always at least three sides to every issue. The truth lies somewhere in the middle usually.

[@D-dogtactical734]

So wait u can’t shoot USPSA?

[@SuperTango44]

Hard to watch how a sport is destroyed by people like this!

[@gb8641]

Cool story tubby

[@gsxrsean]

shit show v 6000 now or 6020?

[@theantichrome9842]

I assume you'll be subpoenaed as a witness.

[@Abber64]

Here's my take on this. Why do shooters worry about the politics of an organization? The whole purpose is to shoot in a sport and have fun. The reason that people got suspended is that they voiced their organizations opinions on social media, bringing disrupt to the organization. There is a code of conduct that must be followed regardless what organization you belong to. I am a member of IPSC and USPSA. I let the people elected do their jobs and enjoy shooting. If people do not do the job that they are supposed to, then they wont be elected again. I don't worry about politics and neither should you! I personally am for the suspensions as I hate it when shooters bad mouth the organization that they represent and supposedly enjoy.

[@christopherg2218]

The problem with this is that without transparency and discussion, we don't have the information to make informed voting decisions.

[@SinistralRifleman]

How the fuck do you expect bad people to get voted out if the members aren’t allowed to discuss those problems openly?

[@jediknight1294]

The problem is 'badmouthing' has become a label for legitimate criticism and debate about the BOD's actions and views. If we can't discuss the potential actions of the BOD and rules changes proposed and we can't critique a match or a particular RO then the sports fucked. The politics are something yiu have to pay attention too otherwise you lose the sport