Fixing Gotham Knights' Horrible Side Missions

[@GameDenColor]

The rewrite continues with completely new side missions: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3ekoIuKbN2ofcU

[@mtfelizabeth9481]

I think for the Clayface mission, it would be cool to have the same idea of Clayface split into multiple pieces, but instead, we have Annie from the New Batman Adventures involved. Then the mission can be more personal for Tim. I also think it could be fun to make Clayface more of a tragic character and build towards a redemption arc similar to the newer comics.

[@GameDenColor]

I hate to admit it but I don't remember Annie...

[@mtfelizabeth9481]

@@GameDenColor Fair, she was only ever in one episode. I recommend watching it to get a full grasp of her character and how she would affect the Clayface missions but the basics is that she's an amnesiac girl who worked with Tim to uncover her mysterious past, and eventually discovered she was a piece of Clayface before being reabsorbed into the villain's body, leaving Robin devastated. She'd fit well into (1) a story about Clayface's pieces being scattered leading to memory issues for Clayface, and (2) a game that emphasizes the Bat Family with Tim Drake as a major player.

[@leebland8184]

I've had this idea that each of The Knights have there own side missions like. Robin: Clues & Spoilers, Batgirl: Birds of Prey, Nightwing: Haly Circus (Or Blockbuster), Red Hood: Outlaws.

[@GameDenColor]

I would've loved some character specific missions

[@TheTrueBatBrain]

The Harley Quinn mission is an interesting new take on Harley, even in depictions where after she leaves Joker she's still a villain they don't use that as a basis for her schemes. It's very risky though and gets awkwardly close to demonising an abuse victim especially as the entire mission revolves around it. Only thing I'd really change is have Harley come back to reality a bit at the end and willingly give up when she realises what she's doing. Have the boss fight as normal but add more pathos to the end, of only for about ten seconds before she goes crazy again. Highlights the tragedy that makes a lot of Batman villains interesting

[@GameDenColor]

Great perspective that didn't really occur to me. I understand where you're coming from and maybe I could've explained myself better in this script, since a lot of what I was doing was going off of the depiction of Harley in the existing game and fleshing out the plot around her to make a more concise story. Fully agreed that it's tricky depicting a Harley post-Joker still as a villain, that's something I actually liked about this game since most other interpretations steer clear of that entirely. I think there's something really interesting about Harley breaking free from the Joker but still being just as twisted and cruel in her own solo act. My intention wasn't to demonize abuse victims but to show how a very specific person, who is a victim of abuse could perpetuate the cycle unwittingly and kind of become enamored with the power, corrupting her original intent. I think that's where the tragedy actually lies in this out-right villainous portrayal of Harley, but I also could have completely flubbed things. Just wanted to let you know where I was coming from

[@VEZOK54]

In some of her portrayals, she’s been shows as having evil tendencies herself even before Joker came into the picture, he just brought those out to the forefront. Hell, this was the case for the mainline Harley in the comics pre-new 52. I like the idea that she’d always been unhinged. Joker just gave her a little push.

[@mtfelizabeth9481]

@@VEZOK54 Eh, I don't takes away from the tragedy at the core of Harley's character

[@kitnal4143]

​@mtfelizabeth9481 idk Harley after the Joker can still be a villian. It isn't victim blaming to think the adrenaline and joy of playing outside the law and people fearing you would be enough for you to want to do it again and again.

[@1992holycrap]

tbh, Harley's whole plot in this rewrite could also be read as an abuse victim becoming an abuser themselves, which *can* & *does* happen irl.

[@sarahpace5376]

I think an intersting aspect of the side missions is that the villains' behavior can sort of be mapped onto the stages of grief. I think Harley's might be somewhere near bargaining (at least with regard to the victims of her implants), Freeze is absolutly despair and Clayface may be denial (though less conscious due to the amnesia, but he is processing memories from what he recalls and they may not be an accurate representation of what went down in reality). It's a shaky premise I admit and probably wasn't what the writers were thinking. Still, I think having the thematic elements of processing the trauma of loss and grief should've been prominent throughout the game. Sure, it's trope-y to have characters represent the stages of grief, but tropes work when you use them well/do something interesting with them.

[@MSTUD10S]

I like the other side missions, but the harley one is kinda weird to me. Clayface and freeze were great

[@GameDenColor]

Appreciate the feedback, fair enough. I see some similar sentiments in other comments as well, so you're not alone

[@rookiedrifter4273]

I am so sorry for making this so long. I like your idea for the Harley mission & would have done something very similar. I enjoy the idea that Harley views any sort of pairing (student-teacher, boyfriend-girlfriend, etc.) through the lens of her abusive one & projecting her traumas onto others when that isn't the case. It's a great take on villain Harley that has her moving on from the Joker, but not making such a clean break that it's practically a 180, & leaves room for growth as a villain. I'm also a fan of Harley taking a less openly antagonistic relationship w/ the Knights, & viewing it as her "duty" to "mentor" the Knights as their rival. It's almost... sweet, in a messed up way. That being said, I dislike your Freeze idea. Freeze is a beloved character to me & him falling into depravity from Nora leaving him & remarrying just bothers me. I've never liked any story where Nora kills Victor or moves on, & much prefer stories where she won't let the man she loves keep destroying his soul trying to cure an incurable disease. If she can stop him, if she can save what little of Victor's soul is left, they can be together again. That concept's what inspired my own idea. I'd have Nora be dead & Freeze be a killer beforehand, w/ the Regulators tracking him down & giving him an offer; both he & they know his disease is incurable, but he's looking at it wrong, & should instead embrace it. Keep the first mission, but Freeze is openly killing. We fight Freeze in Elliot General, but when the Knights come back to the Belfry, they learn that Regulators used the chaos to steal cryopod components from Quartz Labs & have since gone dark, causing them to vanish from the open world for a time. Regulators break Freeze out of Blackgate, & bring him to a facility in Gotham where they've set up a cryopod w/ various cryogenic formulas that he plans to take a dip in. The Knights go to stop Freeze, but are too late, & he bursts out of the tank w/ a new design & cryo powers. Freeze takes off, & starts icing over Gotham & its harbor himself. I'd scrap the Mecha Freeze boss fight entirely for a Meta Freeze fight, where he's frozen over Gotham & its harbor & constructed a replica of Wayne Manor out of ice as his castle. When the Knights stop Freeze, instead of sounding defeated, have him say something about how the cold makes leaves fall & forces them to be reborn or something. This isn't an end for Freeze, it's a new beginning. Clayface seems the most... messy. I like the movie studio idea, & agree that Basil should shift into Batman & each of the Knights as that is his whole thing, but I don't know if I get his plan in your rewrite. Maybe I wasn't seeing it, but it seemed odd for Basil to try that after suddenly learning the truth. I think I'd do the same as you & keep the first few missions intact, but also remove the random Mob connection & just have groups of homunculi. I'd keep it the same w/ the movie studio setup, but have homunculi that can lob clay globs & entrap the Knights, & other beefy homunculi that extend their arms, & shift them into morningstars or shields, instead of ones using guns. When the Knights come back, Montoya storms in & asks wtf is going on & why they're kidnapping people, causing them to look very confused, & her showing them a video on her phone of them doing so. The Knights inform Montoya, she understands & says the GCPD'll keep an eye out for shifting dirt, while they track & find him at the studios. Have the Knights save hostages at the movie studios, but have Basil's "masterpiece" be videos of them & Batman taking civilians hostage & tying them up to bombs as a way to tank their image, that way Basil's plan's the same regardless of his memory. After saving the hostages & stopping replicas of the Knights & Batman, Clayface appears fully-formed & tries to stop the, taking over the entire movie studio. The Knights fight Clayface on the rooftop, & he crushes a radio tower he was climbing underneath his weight, falling to the street & getting electrocuted. From there, it's the same as yours.

[@luksterr1997]

Love the clay face idea. I think personally I would change it just a little. The idea of having the knight fight another knight and Batman is a really cool idea. My version would be a 4 phase fight. The first phase is going through the building and killing random clay goons The 3rd and 4th phase id keep the same of fighting clay face and then final form clay face in the reservoir The second phase (instead of a knight or Batman) would be that knights most traumatic moment (or a very traumatic moment) For example: Red hoods fight would be him Vs the joker. The joker would be taunting him the whole time and he’d have a crowbar. Around them would be cameras everywhere and a chair in the middle (setting exactly like Arkham knight flashbacks). Jason would have to fight the man that turned him into what he is now Batgirls would consist of her following clay versions of her father around the building. Jim keeps crying for her to help him but Barbara can never get close enough before the clay disappears. Creating an event of never seeing her father, or his face that she struggles to remember, again. Dicks would be him Vs batman. Around them are the dead bodies of the rest of the knights+Alfred. Batman would be mocking him telling him “he failed. He couldn’t save them.” Dick sees himself as a “father figure” and leader to the group. So him not being able to protect them would mess him up I have no idea what event would mess with Tim so ima just say he’s not a playable character for this mission. He’s back at the lab analyzing clay goop with Alfred trying to find a weakness. The biggest problem with this would be that there’s no way for clayfsce to know these traumatic events (like Jason being tortured by joker). But I still think this could be a really interesting way to make them stronger knights by facing what they fear most

[@JP-1990]

I just can't get over the fact that these are the only side villains. You'd think that with the Batman gone, you'd have at least 20 villains popping out like a bunch of fucking meerkats. It's the main reason why I don't think I'll ever get around to playing this game.

[@GameDenColor]

My next video might be right up your alley

[@JP-1990]

@@GameDenColor Crime alley? 😏

[@GameDenColor]

Oh noooooo 😭😭😭

[@doomdimensiondweller5627]

I am so confused about Gotham Knights. It feels like it was supposed to be a sequel to Arkham Knight but they had WB Montreal develop it and it has nothing to do with the Arkham universe. In terms of look it is a bit more colorful but not completely unbelievable for the Arkham Universe. The Suicide Squad game by contrast Stylistically is nothing like the Arkham Games and even contradicts them yet it is in the Arkham Timeline. It looks like a Suicide Squad movie tie in game. I just don't know why they wasted Rocksteady's talent and the Arkham universe to make a Suicide Squad game that would never sell as much.

[@GameDenColor]

I have no idea why the state of Batman games is the way it is right now, a complete mess

[@doomdimensiondweller5627]

@@GameDenColor Thanks for responding, I know people always respond with the copout of IT'S A BUSINESS THEY WANT TO MAKE MONEY !!!!! but that is just a trope. Even from a corporate brand synergy standpoint I have no clue why they do this. Why would you spend all the time and money on Rocksteady to make a Suicide Squad game that might not sell when you can make an Arkham game that you know for a fact will sell ? The Batman Arkham games are not only more popular then any Suicide Squad game but also the movies.

[@sarahsims6164]

I know I've said this many times already, but I still would've preferred that canceled Arkham sequel.

[@jonathancandelario9976]

Love this. You should totally do a video on Batman Vengeance

[@GameDenColor]

Is that the Arkham Knight sequel with Damian?

[@jonathancandelario9976]

@@GameDenColor No. It’s a PS2 era game based off the Animated Series. Honestly it’s arguably the best Batman game pre-Arkham

[@oliversynowiec3350]

Im not a particular fan of the idea of Nora leaving Victor,the man who sacrificed everything including his own humanity for her,just to marry some no name.

[@doomdimensiondweller5627]

I think a video about a Batman Beyond game in the Arkham Universe. I know you would have to make some changes but it could work. I think a great name is "Batman Beyond Arkham"

[@rhysdreamsbig5802]

I wish rocksteady made this game instead. I wanted to see how nightwing or red hood would interact with these villains after Arkham knight

[@kovalfetterer2218]

in case you write batman arkham origins 3 and a sequel to batman arkham knight, here are some title ideas you can use: 1. Batman: Arkham Chronicles 2. Batman: Arkham Resurgence 3. Batman: Arkham Reckoning 4. Batman: Arkham Redemption 5. Batman: Arkham Rising 6. Batman: Arkham Legacy 7. Batman: Arkham Reborn 8. Batman: Arkham Reign 9. Batman: Arkham Retribution 10. Batman: Arkham Revolution 11. Batman: Arkham Requiem 12. Batman: Arkham Order 13. Batman: Arkham Operation 14. Batman: Arkham Obliteration 15. Batman: Arkham Retaliation 16. Batman: Arkham Awakening 17. Batman: Arkham Domination 18. Batman: Arkham Vengeance 19. Batman: Arkham Uprising 20. Batman: Arkham Apocalypse 21. Batman: Arkham Crusade 22. Batman: Arkham Insurgency 23. Batman: Arkham Unhinged

[@GameDenColor]

Love the enthusiasm! I haven't settled on a title yet, haven't even started an outline to be honest. I just want to let it come together a bit more in my head before I start really working on it, but appreciate this so much!

[@kovalfetterer2218]

@@GameDenColor take your time bud cause we all know the final product will be absolute gold

[@spookydivorce]

I like the other missions, but the Harley one seems a bit… weird to me. I can’t explain exactly why (two commenters already have explained it better I believe) but it feels a bit like demonizing an abuse victim. Although I really enjoy Harley being villainous still, it seemed a bit risky on how you portrayed her wanting to assert control over people like her abuser (the unnamed Joker) did before. I think it really messes with her growth as a character and continues to tie her as a victim and not her own character. I really LOVED a lot of the mission though. The mind control and having her making it so the victims coming to her would kill their own abusers. But I feel like a few things after that could’ve been handled a bit more delicately, especially her reaction when the people she implanted the mind control devices in went in to riot against stuff that’s even *mildly* oppressive. Other than that though, interesting take on a possible mission!! Love your videos a lot!! But I just wanted to put in my own two cents on this since I feel as if i should say something 🥲

[@GameDenColor]

Thank you! Yeah I could've fleshed things out a bit more but I also think it's important to note that I'm definitely not trying to demonize abuse victims here. Since Harley is depicted as an outright villain in this continuity, I was trying to make her outright villainous and I felt since the groundwork was already laid in the original game that I'd make the natural connections and make Harley a really morally grey character you can sympathize with but someone who also takes that sympathy to an extreme and does a horseshoe into unsympathetic behavior. I think it's an interesting idea to take Harley's history with the Joker and treat it like her villain origin story in a way. So many Batman villains are victims that then become victimizers. I fully see where you're coming form though, maybe I did not walk the tightrope well enough or maybe I wasn't as tactful as I could've been. To be honest, I wasn't expecting these comments and that's why I appreciate the feedback on these videos.

[@spookydivorce]

@@GameDenColor After reading this comment, I really understand what you mean! I still think it needs some tweaks, but overall I think you did well and I’m hoping you don’t take my comments as an attack. I shouldn’t have used “demonize” tbh, I just don’t think I had the right word. It’s nice to know you take feedback very well :) most other people would get rather defensive. You really take it to heart and it’s refreshing. Keep up the good work, man!

[@agentcooper194]

Very good job on this. The only thing I would change is making the missions essential to each character. On your next video, it is just going to be Scarecrow, Deathstroke, and Anarchy or will there be more?

[@eltoro2150]

Can you do a follow up the Arkham Knight called Batman Arkham Legacy which a retelling of battle for the cowl. Batman is dying of a terminal illness and the story resolves around Jason Todd, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, and Barbra Gordon tying to decide who inherits the mantel of Batman with Deathstroke as the main villain. And Bat-Cow you have to include Bat-Cow

[@eltoro2150]

And Barbra should still be oracle, some thing should stay permanent.

[@GameDenColor]

I don't think I'd ever do that script to be honest, although it does sound extremely fun. Maybe an entire Bat-Cow game though...

[@eltoro2150]

I'll settle for a bat cow game

[@matthewsmith7059]

Great video. Love the content 🙌

[@GameDenColor]

Thank you!

[@zachenderson3032]

I feel bad for mister freeze

[@Paradox-es3bl]

They need to disarm 3 bombs in 3 locations and be at a 4th? Isn't it convenient there's 4 of them? No? Why tf not? Lol. Why have just 1 do all 4 things? Sorry, but this rework is as dumb as the original. Easy fix, though: 12 bombs. They split up and each take 3 locations. We only play as 1, but the others radio in throughout that they're "almost done" or "finished with that one" or whatever. (Just randomly, not just when we disarm ours) boom, oh wait, no boom, but you get my point.

[@natoriousthehopeful2786]

I don't know how to feel about Harley slowly becoming as possessive as the Joker, but great job otherwise 👍

[@GameDenColor]

Thank you! Yeah it's definitely a different take, and I totally get it not being for everyone, especially fans of modern Harley, but since this game presented an outright villainous post-Joker Harley, I thought it could be at least a unique direction to go

[@natoriousthehopeful2786]

@@GameDenColor and I definitely applaud you for that: not every adaptation has to be for everyone

[@thesmilyguyguy9799]

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