Debating If Using "Say Her Name" For Brianna Ghey Is RAClST

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#sayhername #trans

[@NatsumiTakanawa]

I'm a trans woman 'of color' and I hate the fact that she thinks just because ONE person says something that means they speak on behalf of everyone in that group. It is absolutely disgusting that they downplayed that young trans girl's MURDER to argue over a hashtag and refer to that poor girl as "some white girl". 🤦🏾‍♀️

[@kinoate]

It's okay to be dismissive of trans murder so long as you're excusing it to defend another minority (that doesn't own a fucking slogan cause it's been used by so many people), apparently.

[@djalexander968]

thank god they gender her correctly though, sad that is even a win

[@xx_isabel_the_wolf_xx3869]

Professor Flowers swinging at the air rn

[@chadalpha7983]

Its actually hundreds

[@TheClocktowerCrew]

based

[@mikebiggums1921]

I hate this "Say Her Name" discourse it's just "Anne Frank had white privilege" part 2.

[@manuelmialdea5127]

Wasn't that a psyop? This one certainly feels like it is.

[@EmpressTiffanyOfBrittany]

Doesn't even make sense, I would say black folk were privileged not to be stuck in that shithole Germany in the 1930s.

[@imacds]

​@@manuelmialdea5127 I think it was a real statement said by a very antisemitic black ethno-nationalist.

[@deagle2yadome696]

@@imacds a black racist?

[@siohunndai]

@@imacds It actually just started on TikTok because teenagers were saying things to seem woke without thinking. There wasn’t any real ideology or antisemitism involved, just idiots saying stupid things

[@elliott614]

This is like when straight couples thought gay marriage was going to "take away" from their wedding vows

[@Paul.......]

"Oppression has always been between blacks, whites, and Jesus Christ"

[@anothercub6958]

Yeah, that "a storm is coming" ad😂

[@Nuvizzle]

It's literally Dave Chapelle's bit on trans people where he talks about it like it's just a bunch of white people trying to appropriate civil rights for themselves.

[@dumpsterDeity]

Not a good comparison, since straight people are not a marginalized group

[@d3l3tes00n]

@@dumpsterDeity Not yet..

[@kinoate]

Wake up Babe, it's time to sigh over someone erasing indigenous women's struggles in an effort to defend very few specific black people who don't speak for everyone while we ignore a trans girl's murder when the trans community is under political gcide.

[@jeff6872]

Yes, honey....

[@TheClocktowerCrew]

based

[@ashfox7498]

Dave Chappelle it's fucking 8:02, get out of my bedroom.

[@TheNewblade1]

You're literally doing it as u decry someone else doing oppression Olympics. Who's ignoring the girls murder? I'm aware, your aware, it's being talked about so who's ignoring?

[@paige1722]

Can the indigenous ladies just give us the "say her name" pass for trans whiteys already so we can be done with this

[@Scooter_Alice]

As a trans femme of color, I think it's fucking ridiculous that people are really trying to act like specific groups have a monopoly on fucking hashtags.

[@caad5258]

And as a Cis Hwhite dude, I pledge to bring up your opinion whenever I'm on the losing end of an argument.

[@Canadian_Princess]

Right? Fucking insane.

[@MackenziiRivers]

very niche example but theres a hashtag for pony original characters known as MLPOC (MLP-OC) but some people argue that the hashtag is only for black mlp characters/ race bends of humanised mlp characters who are drawn as black and some even go a far as calling you a racist if you use the hashtag for 'white' mlp characters even tho... none of the mlp characters have destinguishable human races.

[@MsScarletwings]

@@MackenziiRivers wtf…. they’re multicolored horses….

[@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je]

Some view Progressivism as a zero-sum game. If you focus on one group another group will suffer. That's why Chappelle represents a part of the black community that feels like their struggle is overlooked in favour of white people "stealing their victimhood" through the trans rights movement.

[@PatOfTheRick]

‘I know kat black leaked your private interactions and that was bad, I’m just sorry you couldn’t have turned it into a teachable moment for everyone’ I don’t think this is the standard most people expect when someone is sexually harassed.

[@PatOfTheRick]

Also the use of the word ‘critique’ is being abused in this conversation. You can’t use it as a shield for every stupid opinion you have.

[@IMatchoNation]

"Vaush, have you considered how your reaction to your private DMs being published makes other people feel? Not a good look sweaty."

[@fleecejohnson9813]

Holy fuck that was infuriating to hear. SOMEHOW twisted that into something VAUSH did wrong????

[@bananamerchant6387]

​@@PatOfTheRick Exactly. There are a lot of people who will misuse the word in order to espouse bad or often mean spirited things.

[@ivanl5158]

It always made me feel sort of gross that everyone kind of collectively Forgot the sexual Harassment that occured against vaush during that drama.

[@darryljack6612]

Well... this is where we are at. Instead of using 3 words to pay respect to a deadnamed transgirl, we are here instead. How very "productive" the online left can be at times.

[@ashfox7498]

I'm gonna run out of Elden Ring boss fights before this discourse is buried.

[@TheNewblade1]

Do u mind extrapolating the productivity that would have come from morning? There's actually less utility in the ladder, because the former, as u see, is creating discourse.

[@MsScarletwings]

@@TheNewblade1 discourse for discourse sake is absolutely not inherently productive if it is near as optically repulsive as this clown show has been.

[@MrRizeAG]

@@TheNewblade1 Mourning is inherently productive. It is part of being a human. In this case, mourning is especially productive because it's part of a larger social movement where pain can be converted into fuel. This "discourse" does literally nothing productive. It just takes up time. Time we don't have. It's a literal psyop.

[@nondescriptcat5620]

@@TheNewblade1 this discourse is dogshit. it's worse than useless.

[@AzureGreatheart]

“It’s about marginalized groups being murdered” *THAT’S THE POINT!*

[@OctyabrAprelya]

If you're Hwite, then no. "White" and "marginalized group" cannot intersect. Ever. (/s just in case)

[@joehudson7007]

​@Octyabr Aprelya thanks for the /s clarification, shit libs would say that with sincerity

[@alexanderboulton2123]

@@OctyabrAprelya The scary thing is that I have seen ppl literally say that word for word fully unironically.

[@OctyabrAprelya]

@@alexanderboulton2123 Oh, yes, the "Poor white people exploited by capitalism doesn't exist" camp An entire race is guilty of all the abuse that happens... How's that not different from what the Nazis used to say? Fuck, Goebbels would be proud of this lot.

[@alexanderboulton2123]

@@OctyabrAprelya If white people commit atrocities against black people in the name of the white race, you don't then blame the entire white race.

[@zloimorfei9930]

To me, the most infuriating part is that people like this girl are focusing on the wrong thing. A trans TEENAGER was murdered, trans rights are being targeted and attacked, and here you are, scolding people for using a hashtag. Like, do they really think what they're doing here is activism? Do they really believe this is somehow helpful?

[@TheAverageCthulhu]

I think a lot of it is that black voices have historically been silenced and now it seems a lot of black Twitter or I guess like online black advocates? Are overcompensating for that history

[@rosestrohm7986]

@@TheAverageCthulhu black twitter will make any excuse to try and seem like their voices are being silenced even though it's just a fucking hashtag

[@William-Morey-Baker]

​@@TheAverageCthulhu it's not black twitter, or black activists... it's almost entirely "allies" and those who wish to advocate for black voices, and they are ignoring the actual opinion of the majority of those they claim to fight for... It's the one thing Conservatives claim that isn't entirely full of shit... wokescolds are mad on behalf of people that couldn't care less, about stuff that just doesn't matter. It's honestly one of the biggest threats to the modern leftist movement... the wokescolds genuinely push people away... and it's not insignificant, either... they are the biggest turn off.

[@gotrac8121]

When you use scolding unironically

[@MsScarletwings]

@@gotrac8121 scolding is, shockingly, a real word with a whole definition. To “remonstrate with or rebuke (someone) angrily.”

[@SuperAsefasef]

Whatever arguments are made here the fact is that a trans girl is dead and we are busy talking about godamned hashtags and slogans.

[@Hanfgurkenhasser]

And that is all you need to know about this psychotic "debate". These people are mental.

[@breakingbadest9772]

I revolted in disgust when i heard that people are "upset" by this, and that they will forever tarnish her name with lefty infighting makes me wanna pull my f****** hair out.

[@Bkilfoil747]

So fucking true. Also as someone in marketing the synergy of having them signal boost your hashtag is GOOD. Leftists are so fucking dumb when it comes to PR and marketing, which is frustrating because they are often right about the policy.

[@GrandadsLounge]

What should we be doing?

[@jackiealexander92530]

@@GrandadsLounge fighting transphobia

[@artisticcannibalism1350]

I also used to think that Vaush handled Professor Flowers pretty poorly... then I listened to her talking to other people. The things that came out of her mouth made me realize that he had not mishandled her but rather he had treated her with perhaps more respect than she deserved.

[@samvsmedia8680]

I still think he handled it poorly, he could have very easily had a more open conversation that would more naturally reveal her internal contradictions with less hyperbolic language obscuring the issue

[@artisticcannibalism1350]

@Sam vs Media He gave her several chances to back down from what she had said and others also gave her multiple chances... she kept doubling down. I'm sorry but how many times does she need to double down before we accept that she understood what she said and meant it? Imagine if it had been a white person who said what she had said... how charitable would have you be?

[@torrb420]

Nah, she hung herself in that debate. That is not up for debate.

[@subroy7123]

I do understand President Sunday's concern about how Vaush handled the PF situation. For me, however, it was purely coincidental that the person Vaush was aggressive towards just turned out to be morally reprehensible. To this day she hasn't acknowledged that deporting a race of people is either genocide or ethnic cleansing.

[@strega0]

Are you kidding me? She was already so condescending from the start of that debate.

[@extraemails4626]

As a black cis woman I honestly think it’s disgusting that people are arguing over this after the murder of an innocent girl. If you care more about your feelings and gatekeeping a slogan than getting justice for ALL victims, you’re part of the problem

[@JakeSpino]

I've waited 45 minutes for her to make an argument and I'm mad at myself for not realizing in minute ~15 that she never would.

[@mutemath2334]

I watched this one live and didn’t realize it at the time, but on second viewing it’s true. She just doesn’t actually have any argument beyond “the context matters because the context matters.”

[@fullauto86]

Lol similar

[@William-Morey-Baker]

i did realize 15 minutes in, and here I am an hour and a half in hating myself... she genuinely feels like a fake person designed to be the most wokescold person imaginable, but she is obviously being sincere. people like her move more people to the right than anyone else on earth. she is the reason people listen to Tucker Carlson and actually believe him... she is a living embodyment of all the dumb shit the right says about the left.

[@christiangriffis721]

Her argument was.....uh..."I just disagree, HaHaaHahaHa."

[@luxborealis]

@@mutemath2334 I was listening to this in the background while working and was very confused why an hour in I still didn’t understand what her argument was. Good to hear it is not just me being too stupid.

[@solareclipse4241]

the whole "is say her name ok for white trans women" discourse feels like a psyop. Edit:spelling

[@djalexander968]

psyop but yeah fr

[@lava172]

soy-op

[@djalexander968]

@@lava172 TRUEEEEEEEEEEE

[@mandel94]

As a non-native English speaker: what does the word "psyop" mean? I've tried looking it up, and it says that it's a military tactic used to influence the mind and behaviour of the opponent? How does that apply in this context? Are you using it to mean that someone deliberately crafted the argument you mentioned because it would be effective to dissiminate and change minds, even though the creator of the argument knew that it was disingenous?

[@shepherdbrooks7609]

@@mandel94 Hey I don't know if the original person will respond to you, but I think you have the meaning perfect. Psyop is short for Psychological Operation, it is typically a military tactic, but in this case can also refer to the possibility of opposition (such as right wing politicians and other leadership) intentionally creating what is basically fake controversy like this to divide us so that we lose focus on issues that actually matter.

[@JARV9701]

She really tried so hard to get a gotcha moment out of Vaush for 2 hours, and everytime she missed a point and Vaush responded to her, she had that nervous laught.

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

I feel like this person genuinely doesn't understand what moral permissibility is. As a moral human being, not even a leftist, how do you hear someone say that ethnic cleansing isn't off the table and reflexively defend them because of their ethnicity?

[@TheRaven7]

Dogmatic systemicism and the belief that "racism = prejudice + power" is some kind of magic spell that negates material harm to individual white people.

[@adnanxm]

This was a master class in talking at length without saying anything, while simultaneously hitting all the performative marks for maximum perceived social credit, and minimum actual meaning.

[@ashfox7498]

45 minutes in and I'm scared the remaining 2 hours is gonna be that, nothing at all has been said and this girl is building a literal citadel of meaningless posturing lefty speak. Literally have not heard a single point except the Dave Chapelle "you're stealing my focus, sweaty" line

[@misirtere9836]

By the time she shouted "LET ME FINISH MY POINT" my first thought was "honey, I don't know if you *started* it"

[@violetsonja5938]

@@breadtunes Thank you, as someone who had a generally positive view of President Sunday during that one debate, it really seemed like a waste of time. His certainty in the value of his position when it was so meaningless made it unbearable.

[@bananamerchant6387]

There are so many leftists like her. They don't see the Left as a political movement for bettering our world and fighting for the rights of the oppressed. They see it as a personal vanity project where they all argue amongst themselves about who's more morally righteous. It's sad that some sects of the online left are like this.

[@breakingbadest9772]

I can't talk with people that are like this I get enraged and loose every time because "oh you angry man, that's not acceptable, nonono".

[@SybilNix]

I just want the online left to stop creating arbitrary rules that make it impossible to engage with each other without constantly walking on eggshells. It’s not inviting (or accessible) at ALL to people who aren’t already on the left and it actively turns people away from the movement.

[@lallig8860]

unironically though, when people go "if their morals are that weak then who cares" i just want to SCREAM because most people *DO* have decent morals but they also only get one life & don't want to live it constantly in fear of being abused over a single slip-up

[@rainbowkrampus]

At this point my view of the online space is that you have leftists and you have social clubs who present as left leaning. Another commenter put it well, freaking out over and claiming hashtags is just reinventing copyright. It's reactionary and literally reproducing capitalism. This is not leftism. Much like tankies, we should make an effort to prevent these kinds of ideas from being associated with leftism.

[@iz2333]

Not just people who aren't on the left, I'd say most reasonable people period just wouldn't want to be in that environment.

[@jatsko3113]

What struck me during this debate is that at no point was it ever mentioned how frustrating these types of conflicts have been for Vaush, on a personal emotional level. Like, Vaush doesn't really bring his emotions and how these types of things make him feel to these discussions, but his debate opponents in turn never seem to recognize that he talks out of genuine born frustration; they only see "unfair personal attacks" or "rhetoric that is unhelpful or exaggerated". I get that Vaush isn't the type to emphasize that about himself, but you can clearly tell that this sort of leftist purity infighting is genuinely frustrating to him because of the perceived harm it has for leftists as a whole. Yet he never is assessed by his opponents as someone who has genuine feelings about this stuff, with concerns and fears. Any outburst he had is only chalked up to "needlessly inflammatory rhetoric", etc, without any personal emotional explanation. I know it sounds weird to basically say "why has no one cared about Vaush's feelings", but this unique emotional perspective is offered and allowed to be heard from basically everyone else on the left, except for him.

[@elkosins1686]

Vaush doesn’t have emotions. He is a content machine built for the express purpose of entertaining us and therefore requires no sleep and his emotions are insubstantial

[@kinoate]

@@elkosins1686 All I require are his cats. And his passionate argumentation for his positions and ideals. But mostly the cats. Maybe.

[@ashfox7498]

Unfortunately it's the cross to bear for white cis guys, other people get to club you over the head with their hurt feelings but you confess for a second to being frustrated they're mocking you for white tears; he literally cannot talk about it without the people who all hate him and just decided he's some emotional pompous bully making him out to be overly emotionally and fully deserving of everything.

[@TheNewblade1]

It's because he gets paid to do this, he's not forced to do this. Relax wit the parasocial activity fam.

[@MsScarletwings]

@@TheNewblade1 it’s not about parasocial projection, it’s about the complete and very obvious double standard of the “but our feefees” crowd EVERY. SINGLE. Time. some bs like this comes up and starts a brand new discourse about wokescolds. There is this extremely troubling and possibly borderline abusive tendency I’ve been noticing in leftist-leaning spaces where whenever some kind of drama goes down, people automatically want to give more of an ear and more charitability to whoever is the most visibly upset and “hurt” by the topic even if the other person is just as invested and earnest but more emotionally reserved or resilient-appearing. I don’t think it’s an intentional or malicious thing, but it seems to incentivize and reward manipulators once they get a foothold into a community because of how easily exploitable it is. Crybullies literally weaponize the hell out of it to turn otherwise very empathetic and reasonable groups against their own for what I can only assume is a power trip to gain social capital, because it sure as hell is not furthering the movement or solidarity.

[@ies_irae1397]

The one question I wanted to ask them while watching this was “WHO THE FUCK CARES“ Vaush tried really well to get the obvious point across but the other person was just too virtue-signally. Actually deranged

[@jacobjohnston3983]

Theoretical: a young woman of a marginalized community was unjustly killed in a hate crime, and media outlets are deadnaming her and not accurately representing her identity. Practical: using “say her name” is perfectly appropriate and coherent. It’s easily understandable and gets the point across.

[@svenhasselfrisian9274]

How do you know that it was a hate crime? Any evidence for that?

[@bethanyreynolds7270]

​@@svenhasselfrisian9274the retardation here is astounding

[@Tp_hedgelinghog]

​@svenhasselfrisian9274 yeah there was, they literally confessed to that, and evidence on their phones proved their intent was indeed doing a hate crime.

[@deratizat1370]

It's really telling how people that say "Vaush doesn't listen to black voices" then go on to bring up professor Flowers as an example. Remember that time when STV Philly came on the stream, made an actual good argument and Vaush conceded almost instantly? I remember.

[@hichaelhighers]

"The phrase 'Say her name' contains three elements: black, woman and brutalized by the police. All three of these elements have to apply for the phrase to be appropriate." 5 minutes later: "The police part isn't necessary."

[@artemisameretsu6905]

5 more minutes later: Well they don't have to be black, it was used for indigenous women originally but they don't mind black women using it. But black women get to decide transwomen shouldn't get to use it 😊

[@justcallmekai1554]

​@@artemisameretsu6905 It's weird because if you're not even gonna be consistent with the meaning of the phrase and stretch it out, why is it not ok for it to be used for Brianna? As if the hashtag bs meant or did anything worth while to begin with

[@levi2725]

And by saying that these elements apply in this order, she's saying that "Say her name" is more correctly used for a black man than for a non-black woman 💀

[@lallig8860]

Women will literally debate Vaush instead of going to therapy edit: i just wanna know if she thinks Trans Lives Matter harms Black Lives Matter

[@asherroodcreel640]

May I smack it?

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

It’s expensive

[@vogelvogeltje]

🐸

[@beardpandaa]

​@@banquetoftheleviathan1404there are alternatives to therapy that don't involve debating vaush over hashtags. I promise. Touching grass is actually a very good start.

[@misirtere9836]

Oh god, does this turn into a therapy session like the wizard game debate?

[@heheheiamasuperstarcatgirl8485]

How as leftists did we get to a point where we have basically reinvented copyright

[@christopher5784]

lol, true

[@cherrypopscile3385]

No silly.... We made Collectivist copyright, where different groups of people own catchy phrases used to push their opinions. And instead of using lawyers, it will be enforced mostly by white women on Twitter. So we didn't reinvent copyright! We made it worse.

[@rainbowkrampus]

We can call it, Right of Oppression.

[@stevenbryant1011]

​@@rainbowkrampus more like copywrong

[@nondescriptcat5620]

@@Ass_of_Amalek do you ever get tired of having the most dogshit possible opinion on literally every comment thread on a voosh video?

[@gaminggeckos4388]

29:42 ...She had JUST argued that the hashtag involved three specific things: The death of a woman, that woman being black, and that woman being killed by the police. So, is she now saying that it's fine if the hashtag only describes TWO of those things? But that to have only ONE of those things is unacceptable, insensitive, and diluting of the meaning of the hashtag?

[@7-67-7]

bingo

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Your number 1 and 3 are the same thing. By definition it would be impossible to include less than two things if it included number 3. Number 1 was actually "woman k1lled who was non/ under reported." And that the numbers followed from order of importance. It's very frustrating to me to agree with this debator as a Vaush fan who believes hes right about this and usually makes good arguments. Her point was that because you think you're right, you think you don't need to make good arguments and you can just automatically dismiss anyone you disagree with. That is a dangerous road if you come to a position that turns out to not be right and you treat it the same way.

[@gaminggeckos4388]

@@JebeckyGranjola ...They most certainly are NOT the same thing. And this is HER three items, not mine. But in Brianna Ghey's case, she was a woman who died but wasn't killed by the police, meaning she met the first condition and not the third.

[@torrb420]

She literally made the argument she is doing this for clout. New to the game, just started streaming, insistent on getting in "gotchas". She is new blood hoping to win clout points for her career. Again, proving Vaush's point. As a n old saying goes, give man rope and he will hang himself. Except in this case, a cis girl.

[@mckenzie.latham91]

Her argument is it's black coded and owned only She just can't outright say that cause she'll be called out for it so she plays these games But the issue is when you play those games you can trip yourself up, so the discrepancies in her logic and consistency results from that.

[@zotaninoron3548]

The delusional levels of charitability for Flowers is agonizing. Even when the point was explicitly made with Flowers' own words the downplaying of Flowers' double down was insane. *The absolutely most charitable take you could reasonably say about Flowers is she doesn't understand the implications of her own rhetoric.* That's it.

[@yourneighbourtodoro]

I think the flipside of that, too, is that Vaush never receives that same level of charitableness. I'm not a V-simp or anything, but it's annoying when people bend over backwards to make PF seem like she just had a bad day, but then will get mad about the "women shut up" tweet or dig up clipped sections of two-year old streams to smear him.

[@PackRunner3]

Seriously, they can disagree with vaush coming in hot but she then went on many times after to state pretty much everything vaush accused her of.. there's no defense there

[@Linkard]

Plus it seems like she's Israeli and wanted to argue in favor of Israel. I don't get how she thinks

[@Jayday12345678910]

Try being an actual leftist instead of a dumbfuck❤️

[@zotaninoron3548]

@@Jayday12345678910 If this was directed at me, please understand, I don't care how reactionary genocide apologists label me.

[@helios566]

It's unironicly gaslighting to pretend that the people saying it's fine to use "Say her name" are the ones causing infighting.

[@EmpressTiffanyOfBrittany]

Absofrickin'lutely. I'm trans and Hispanic and this shit is so messed up. You can acknowledge the horrible legacy of imperialism and... I dunno wtf to even call it, just whiteness, without bullying and ignoring white allies.

[@sypherthe297th2]

The fact of the matter is that the politics of the black community isn't cut and dry. I believe that idiots like the caller and JessieGender are moronically simping for people who mean harm to trans people and thst is why they are so up on arms about the hashtag. There is a virulent strain of anti-LGBT sentiment which would be right at home at a DeSantis rally. . . if not for the fact those people aren't really all that friendly to black people. The assumption that black people are automatically tolerant of others is just as flawed as thinking all white people are racist anti-LGBT bigots. The central tenet of those types is very much "discrimination for thee but not for me." Theyd be so happy if the Republicans stopped being racist so they could join in on lynching trans people and shooting up gay nightclubs.

[@falconeshield]

A person was murdered. People care more about hashtags than raising awareness of it. What the....

[@amandagarcia2848]

This is the very definition of touch grass. I wish wokscolds would go outside.

[@keybladesrus]

This is the thing that pisses me off the most. She was murdered, and all I hear is people arguing over what fucking hashtag to use. That was how I first of her, and that's all I keep hearing about related to her. It's absolutely disgusting.

[@reverseaimbot2509]

Welcome to the wokescold left, where it’s all scold without the woke and the left with a large dose of reactionary politics.

[@eelvis1674]

Make no mistake. It is intentional. Transphobic oppression Olympics gold medalists deliberately stirred this up as a fake issue to derail a conversation about transphobia and redirect anger away from her death, because they don't care about trans people

[@Silverfang447]

Wokescolds gonna scold. It's all they have; no actual arguments. Just feelings and whining about those feelings. 🙄

[@caad5258]

That debate made me feel like I was being gaslighted.

[@ultraprincesskenny6790]

​@@caad5258 yeah like half the time she was agreeing but it seemed like she was too set in her opinion to admit any faults.

[@torrb420]

​@@caad5258 because you were. This is what these people do and it's what they are good at. Narcissist psychos all in cult mindset and you better not dare speak outside of the party line.

[@Gloomdrake]

​@@ultraprincesskenny6790 it really bugged me that she came into this with no intention of trying to convince Vaush, instead suggesting she would be better served trying to convince chat instead

[@7-67-7]

It was actually wild seeing live how many people don't care if you're wrong or making totally nonsensical arguments, so long as you clear the lowest possible bar of being good faith. Multiple times she swore up and down that Brianna's race wasn't the only determining factor, that the real issue was she wasn't American and wasn't a victim of police violence. And for some totally good faith reason, she ignored the implications of being okay with SHN originating from cases of abducted Indigenous women, despite now being "co-opted" for black women victims of police violence. Vaush singled out every other aspect and the only thing she wasn't willing to budge on was SHN being used for a white person specifically. Not to mention this phony outrage took pretty much all attention away from the reasons this hashtag was being used in the first place. News outlets kept misgendering and deadnaming Brianna and none of these wokescolds gave a fuck.

[@beardpandaa]

Just feel the need to correct you in that vaush was wrong and that the hashtag was made first by black women for black women. BUT it was also made to be intersectional and natives used it after to go along with mmiw and stolen sisters. Everybody was cool with that.

[@MrTheWaterbear]

@@beardpandaa Indeed, there is a chatter who keeps bringing up that “SHN originated with indigenous communities in Canada” which is total BS. It was expanded to intersect with their struggles, and should be expanded to intersect with trans women’s struggles, too. They all face brutality and indifference to their fate from society and police. SHN shouldn’t be for black women to own. It shouldn’t matter that they originated it.

[@bananamerchant6387]

​@@beardpandaa That's not how hashtags work. You don't get to claim ownership over a fucking hashtag.

[@ClearAbyss]

@@beardpandaa I'm glad to see someone else say it. So many of these "lefties" trying to rewrite history and separate black people from what they created. The whole fight over a hashtag is pretty dumb in general, but the rewriting history thing is so aggravating. Just more using black people when it's convenient, then ex-ing them out once you get what you want. It mirrors the tried and true tactics of the establishment dems that online leftists complain about.

[@7-67-7]

​@@beardpandaa My wording makes it somewhat confusing but I'm not speaking on the actual origins of the hashtag or movement because it doesn't really matter here. They both agreed the hashtag can be used for multiple groups outside of an initial group it was meant to represent, that Brianna's race isn't a determining factor in why anyone should avoid using it, but the caller only doubled down and never adjusted her argument. Since they were both operating under slight misconceptions about the origin, accuracy takes a backseat to how inconsistent the caller was.

[@Blank-Slate-Not]

With both Noah and her, the fact that Vaush can pull out a tweet where PF literally says that white people are colonizers to her, and both Noah and this lady just “disagree” and think Vaush is being bad faith about it is mind boggling.

[@Gloomdrake]

Weirdly similar to JB Peterson fans

[@lucasm2344]

Her arguments seem to come down to a conflation of offense vs harm and the regular puritanical idpol bullshit we always have to deal with.

[@neurotika]

She's the PP!

[@eye-chan1711]

So glad the left is so committed to helping trans people that we can’t even come up with a hashtag for a dead trans girl without everything falling apart. Also very disappointed in Jessie because I feel like if anyone knew better it would be her.

[@Robbay363]

Jessie seems like the kind of person who starts with good positions and then gets pressured by certain parts of the online left into adopting bad positions. I know for example her current wizard game take is very different from an article she wrote several months ago.

[@nbkhnzzr]

I think the Jessie Gender thing is so funny. Jessie Gender is constantly saying listen to black voices while also being the loudest voice in the room, and she gives no consideration to the fact that her voice has an influence on the black people in her community, so when she asks for their opinion, they're going to give an opinion the Jessie already agrees with.

[@verager2493]

I, for one, would not spend 3 hours defending something said by someone who's anti miscegenation. That she's neither trans nor black is just icing on the virtue signal cake

[@nzephier]

Her argument boils down to "I'm not saying you should listen to the voices that I want to listen to but you should listen to the voices I want to listen to that make me right."

[@Labyrinthfox]

“If you still act dismissive I can still say you didn’t do your introspection. “ Implies that only if you have done that will you undeniably find me right. Otherwise you haven’t introspected right. It’s brain dead.

[@elysahatestostudy9364]

Harm vs Offense: It's cool that people are offended, and hey that's valid as offense is personal. But where's the HARM? We shouldn't care about offense, we should care about HARM.

[@caad5258]

1:33:00 President Sunday debated Vaush for 3 hrs, steelmanning Proffessor Flowers arguments. She later turned on him and accused Sunday of characterizing her as dumb. The PF debate has been analyzed to death, and she looks worse for it. The best thing people can do for her is forget about it.

[@pi172]

holy crap, this prof flowers saga never ends. these people accuse Vaush of framing Prof Flowers or being inflammatory to her, when all he did was to nail her down on the implied consequences of her vaguely genocidal rhetoric. Vaush ASKED her over and over and over again what she concretly means. She refused to respond over and over and over again and instead resorted back to her vague ramblings. She had (AND STILL HAS) every chance to clarify. But she doesnt. She just behaves like these rightoids who dogwhistle genocide but then are too big cowards to outright say it. If she feels honestly "misunderstood" or whatever, she could just f...in answer. its not that hard.

[@sypherthe297th2]

Implied my arse. There was a point where she literally said, "It wouldn't be my preferred solution but if indigenous people decide they want to ethnically cleanse/genocide colonizers then we should support them in their right to do so." There was no "implying." She tried to put minimal distance between herself and being an active participant but she was pretty bloody clear what she was about.

[@beliarioc9472]

oh boy, I don't know if I have the mental strength to torture myself with watching a debate of this kind right now

[@shocknawe]

I feel your pain. I personally caught the ending of this one live and I can warn you that she is a tad too vexing. Also: she defends Professor Flowers. That much, prolly tells you much of what you need to know.

[@beliarioc9472]

@@shocknawe It should tell me everything I need to know, but this is sadly pretty common. It's incomprehensible to me how so many people on the left are fine with calls for ethnic cleansing as long as it's not coming from a white person.

[@emexdizzy]

Mood. I know I'm not watching this nonsense, I'm exhausted from it. I'm so weary of constant transphobic concern trolling over nothing when trans people are in actual danger.

[@verager2493]

​@@beliarioc9472 they keep saying "listen to black people", but not a single one of them will talk about what that black woman said

[@JebeckyGranjola]

@Beliarioc Is it really incomprehensible? People are want to ascribe good intentions to people who broadly share thier political views (or whatever group project), and more importantly, personally treat them well. The Destiny comparison was apt: You're Incapable of extending any charity to people who disagree with you. To be frank, I agree with your assessment of PF's character, I just think it's an intellectual failing on your part to find it inexplicable that anyone could honestly defend her. That says more about you than it does about them.

[@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je]

Katee was recently on a panel discussion about how the progressive movement eats itself. That feels relevant.

[@flipina]

My work somehow involves social media and hashtags, and I come from Asia. And being in this online leftist sphere of the US makes my job so hard because I am always anxious of making a mistake that someone would call out, despite our being outside of US. The thing about SayHerName is that it uses common English words. It's my job to search hashtag history but for organic movements, there is no one person strategizing. Stifling an organic movement or outpouring of support hurts the overall movement. Imho

[@luxborealis]

As someone who doesn’t use Twitter at all I barely understand what a hashtag even is or how it even matters.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

Hot take: black voices that say stupid stuff should be ignored or pushed back on, just like anyone else.

[@EmpressTiffanyOfBrittany]

Same thing with everyone, it just so happens Hogs say the dumbest things and yet I see no push-back from people like this lady at them.

[@justcallmekai1554]

This shouldn't be a hot take to begin with. Say stupid shit win stupid prizes.

[@TheClocktowerCrew]

Given that she is arguing that the murder took place in the UK and the hashtag is an American concept, I still don't understand why I should care. Let the UK people across the pond do what they gotta do, why do we have to make this an American issue all of a sudden?

[@EmpressTiffanyOfBrittany]

Why does it even matter that she's from the UK? Do British not use hashtags?

[@artemisameretsu6905]

Yeah the fact that as Americans we don't even know half of the political bullshit going on in Europe because we're so centered on our own problems which fair enough but then some Americans want people using "mostly American social media" to know about our problems to the point they recognize and remember a hashtag and know not to use it for a little trans girl who got dead named after being murdered. The absolute fucking audacity of these people.

[@queenbean7071]

@@EmpressTiffanyOfBrittany brit here, can confirm we do have hashtags

[@allekatrase3751]

The fact you didn't go harder in the PF debate is a positive I think. You were extremely charitable going in and gave her tons of opportunities to walk it back. Which makes it a stronger case for using it as a barometer. There's no good faith interpretation where she looks good. So, anyone defending it either isn't engaging in good faith or didn't bother to actually watch it.

[@LimeyLassen]

It's mostly the latter from what I've seen.

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Of course. They aren't going to watch a Vaush video. They just watched hers and took her word for it. Just like many commentors didn't watch this video, and every video, and they just repeat what Vaush has said before assuming that is what he says here, making arguments that are irrelevant to the substance of the discussion. Parasocial fandoms are a blight on our political movement. We must constantly position ourselves in the interpersonal drama of content creators at every opportunity, above actually focusing on our goals.

[@TravellingMark5454]

I think she hoped Vaush would go harder so she could use that as her argument but here all her points felt hollow.

[@cogsworther1639]

I remember people accusing Destiny of doing the same thing to Jontron, that clearly Jontron didn't mean to say all those things, Destiny just Jedi mind-tricked him with his Debate-Gotcha-Techniques All this to say that it's painful to watch people keep pulling the same tired excuses. They keep insisting that the only reason someone they're a fan of did anything wrong was because they were tricked into doing it. Over in reality, the debate actually consisted of PF digging herself deeper and deeper into a hole while Vaush repeatedly asked her to put down the shovel

[@little_flitter]

Uhmnnn achtually (sorry had to), I would argue that if a person is going off of 'vibes' than she does look good. Let me explain. If you look at what flowers actually says and respond to that, then yes what you said exactly. If you look at what flowers gestures to and aesthetically puts out, it's one of ' we should put the power in the hands of the oppressed', which means those prone to falling for optical progressives respond to her vibes and the general sentiment... rather than what she actually says in the arguments. That's how people can take her in 'good faith' because they aren't responding to the literal words, they are responding the vibes of her arguing for 'putting the power in the hands of the opressed' which is problematic in my opinion but yeah.

[@Domnom22]

Imagine getting hate crimed and all people can talk about is what hashtag to use when discussing your death

[@Gloomdrake]

It's ghoulish

[@mishapurser4439]

It is rather extraordinary that Americans crashed uninvited into the conversation that a different country was having, had the audacity to demand that that country acquiesces to American sensibilities, and didn't see why they're the problem here. The additional callousness of doing it to a community that was mourning the death of a teenage girl only makes this worse.

[@amandagarcia2848]

Hey we Americans must barge in on everyone's shit! Only American counts! USA! USA! Yeah, this is so stupid. Britain doesn't get a chance to dictate how they want to handle one of their young women, they must bend to how the USA wants them to act.

[@anonihme5142]

extraordinary? this has been the world since ww2 ended :-)

[@PaladinFeora]

I just left the hospital and came home from a major surgery. Now I have to get readmitted to the ER because of how gross her behavior is my brain left my body saying nope not these people.

[@DamienPalmer]

I'm sorry for your loss.

[@MisuzuPM]

I'm a black femme and before even seeing anyone else's opinion on this, I saw the Twitter thread that started this mess and my first thought was, "Psyop. Ignore the fed post." Like, it was so fucken stupid because I had already had prior knowledge that this was a slogan that had been in use for missing and murdered indigenous women even before if was for black women who died of police brutality. I see this shit all the time in the black community where people are unwilling to give space to other marginalized people because there is this ridiculous belief that it will take away from black issues. For me, I don't get to separate my race, gender, or sexuality because each of them is a good enough reason for me to get marched off to a camp should the fascist win. We're ultimately fighting the same enemy. ETA: I don't know how many people I heard say PF didn't bring up land back and I knew it was a lie but didn't have the time to sit thru the debate again, BUY SHE SAYS IT RIGHT THERE WTF

[@sypherthe297th2]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who simply ignore that there is a not-insignificant portion of the black community which is anti-LGBT. Such people very much epitomize the idea of "discrimination for thee but not for me." Its really hard to sort out whether the people doing stuff like this are stupid or bigoted themselves.

[@postmodernneomarxist3056]

I think the solution to "listen to minorities" is to find the most oppressed Vaushite. A homeless, autistic, half black, half Native American, gay, transgender, immigrant.

[@pepperpitz3291]

“I think this IS intersectionality” 5 minutes later “Well if I had to rank them (types of oppression) I would go black, police and then woman)” Yeah ranking ppl by oppression and sorting them into groups of red and green lights for who is allowed to use what hashtag is the DEFINITION of intersectional. And whipping out that logic to kill the momentum of media attention towards the murder of a 16 year old girl is the DEFINITION of solidarity. Brilliant. Radiant. Queen.

[@bibsp3556]

Why be effective when you can whinge instead. We out here, being the worst at marketing.

[@beardpandaa]

I wanna get off this crazy train 😭

[@Paul.......]

@@beardpandaa IM GOING OFF THE RAILLSS ON A CRAZY TRAIIINNN

[@DamienPalmer]

@@Ass_of_Amalek Well unless your name is a bad joke, you're also an idiot, so I'll assume your comment is in bad faith. Regardless, of course she said it in regards to "say her name" not "black lives matter" (go ahead and check) and she doesn't justify her choice, and it's obviously wrong. Women are the first group the phrase belongs to, and women are the only group it literally refers to.

[@thesupertendent8973]

Just to be the first one out the gate. This whole thing hurts my outlook on leftists (as somebody who leans left) or "leftists" and it is disgraceful that there is selectivity of what is more righteous.

[@StankJesus]

Almost same thing here man

[@dilaisy_loone2846]

You have to understand that humans are morons no matter their overall morals 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@ringer1324]

Same

[@shocknawe]

Consider meself lefty and yes, this excessive purity testing gate keeping tosh is irritating and looks rather bad.

[@apophis7712]

As a black trans leftist, I ain't letting those idiots push me away

[@AlexKwit]

How does one go from uwu to joker screaming?

[@jshwck4210]

By constructing a personality that has elements to shock. Isn't there a stereotype, that a few girls project: i am a lil bit crazy, hope you don't mind, in the same way as some guys try to force the troubled youth image?

[@1OtherMr]

she could just be nervous over being in a debate with a much larger streamer. I wouldn't read too much into it

[@artemisameretsu6905]

​@@jshwck4210 I mean playing into the uwu yandere type definitely doesn't turn off enough people so I guess she figured why not? Vaush certainly didn't call her out on it so I guess it works xD

[@acdeeiprrt]

@@1OtherMr nervous laughs are still genuine laughs. joker laughs are voiced. she was voicing those laughs

[@d3l3tes00n]

@@1OtherMr Her smugness was pretty clear

[@AnimeGIFfy]

ngl "say her name" makes sense for both

[@ashfox7498]

45 minutes in right now and I'm really weirded out how often this person keeps saying "as an ally" and/or "I believe you're an ally" like she's sitting here the living incarnation of exactly what's so shitty about wokescolds, an otherwise good meaning person is on this constant purity hunt and while having a good faith conversation with a good faith person she has to constantly assure Vaush that he is not a heretic in their eyes. I literally cannot even imagine what this does to the sanity level of someone constantly walking on egg shells and feeling like one toe out of line will see you burnt at the stake.

[@IRGeamer]

This was such painstakingly crafted "right speak" that it became too vague to have any substance or argumentative value at all. For me it just called any potential underlying reasoning into question, if there were any other than stale (and conveniently exclusionary when needed) talking points that only apply if you think trans are "them". People, please stop pretending that your seeming belief in your own "objective" moral judgment automatically translates into a unassailable fact. If you don't agree on who qualifies as "us", then any moral determination will always become subjective. I just hope that the "them" qualification that excludes trans use of a three word phrase that predates any use in any movement, isn't a sign of hidden bigotry and is just a superstitious worship of "optics". Edit: I lost track of the number of of times she dismissively said "OK" before ignoring the point completely or sighed condescendingly at a valid point before just sarcastically regurgitating the same thing over again like a fool trying to speak slowly and loudly to a deaf person. But the condescending laughter whenever she heard anything she didn't agree with, right up until the end was just gross. Pretty please do a research stream and then wipe the floor with her smug ass.

[@torrb420]

It's a cult. If it wasn't for Vaush I'd probably ditch this hole damn thing and just fucking go full "enlightened centrist". Because people like this girl are insane and needs therapy. It's a cult, and how dare you not stay in tow with the party line. It's CCP shit.

[@dellybird5394]

Also idk what the obsession with being a "good ally" is. I do consider myself a trans and POC ally, but no one has to pat me on the back and tell me I how good I am. And I don't run around seeking that validation either. We should just care about advocating for policies that improve people's lives, not trying to earn gold stars from internet strangers. Besides, everyone has a different definition of who makes a good ally for their group. As an example from recent discourse, many trans people don't really care if you buy the wizard game, but others do feel like it makes you a weaker ally. They are entitled to that opinion, but you don't just stop being an ally just because you don't have literally EVERY trans person's blessing. No one is a perfect ally. Just be yourself and try to listen to (a variety of) minority voices. Listen does not always mean agree with.

[@hebbycakes]

@@dellybird5394 I think it's less to do with being a good ally-- I think the actual underlying obsession comes from the fear of abandonment and/or being ostracized. Since it is so easy to get ostracized in the online left, or rather have people mob you for the most minor of slip ups, I'd say that's where this scrupulous behavior comes from. It doesn't justify it, of course, people should just be themselves and stick up for others, but there's a lot of push to believe that you're uniquely evil, and the punishment is ostracization of a person for failing to be a "good ally" or a "good person", even though both aren't measured by how many right words someone speaks.

[@slashb7836]

I've honestly gotten to the point where I reject the idea of being an ally. The way it's used by the online left is so anti-intersectional.

[@mr_lankyon2065]

girl dies in UK "it's on twitter now, this is a US centric discourse". uhuh sure. keep telling yourself that

[@TheTolleyTrolley]

Vaush, I only became a fan like a year after the Prof. Flowers debate. I didn't watch it initially, but took other content creators word that you had behaved badly. I finally got around to watching it a month or so ago. In its entirety, I think it's extremely hard to argue that you were wrong at all. Like you said here, she made her point explicitly and directly multiple times.

[@midnightnavigator]

Soon as she started running defense for PF, I stopped caring what she had to say. The collective gaslighting and over charitably to PF is gross. It felt like she only wanted to defend PF to help defend herself against her critics.

[@elysahatestostudy9364]

"So you're tired of repeating it?" How long, miss, do you want Vaush to repeat "please don't harass her"? To this day? Beyond? Until his deathbed? It's a non-starter, absolutely no contribution and certainly not an argument (as you casually and conveniently ignore every attempt on Vaush's side to make the harassment stop with his mod team reaching out to personally excise them from the community; which was met with blocks and zero evidence)

[@artemisameretsu6905]

Yeah that made me so mad, her argument basically boiled down to "u should have done it this way" and when he stated he DID she turned around with that stupid ass uwu voice and asked him if he thought she was asking him to be a cuck by suggesting he do the thing he was already doing Luckily I was making dough for pierogi bc I could have thrown my phone in frustration

[@chibiraptor]

1:54:38 you can't just walk into vaush's stream, tell him he's wrong, and expect that he'll just be a centrist and say "I guess we're both wrong!" If he thinks you're wrong, he's gonna push back. That's what everyone should do.

[@backwardsbandit8094]

The entire issue with this conversation is that Katie is failing to explain how using the hashtag Brianna Ghey is HARMING the ability to use it for black women. Theres an allusion to diluting the meaning of the hashtag, but can she make the actual argument that this hashtag would be less effective to use for black women after using it for Brianna Ghey? Especially when it's already been used for different causes in the past and hasnt been declawed in any tangible way?

[@JebeckyGranjola]

She didn't. But it seems like an extremely simple and intuitive argument: If you make a message promoting one thing then people will associate it with that thing and not another thing. That's founded on the premise that there is already a lack of awareness about a thing, requiring the need to push a message about it. Ok, so now you give me the opposite argument: How is it that a message about one thing is not going to take over from awareness of another thing?

[@JebeckyGranjola]

I'll even give you an example: "Woke" was a term created by Black people to mean "cognizant of racial injustice." Then it was dilluted to mean Progressivism in general, and now means anything Conservatives don't like. It seems trivially obvious that messages can be dilluted.

[@19Szabolcs91]

@@JebeckyGranjola But "Say her name" is such a generic term and can be naturally, logically applied in multiple situations, one of which IS having the victim "deadnamed" in the media. It harms progressive causes to take an effective, generic slogan or strategy and gatekeep it. It's like... imagine if we said, OK, hunger strikes were invented by the Irish to protest against injustice and oppression, so nobody else should ever use it. Also, the police murdering innocent black people is one of the most well known things in America. It caused the biggest protest wave in the country's history. It's not like there is "no awareness" about it anymore.

[@andythedestro12]

​@@JebeckyGranjolayeah and now you have a bigger tent. Conservatives don't like a bunch of stuff and now all those people can have a strong coalition against conservatives. Again no harm was done.

[@neurotika]

@@JebeckyGranjola that’s not how logic works. If someone is going to claim HARM then the onus is on then to substantiate that claim. Your example is not one of harm. It’s conservatives doing what they’ve always done. You think progressives are at fault for thinking “woke=bad”?

[@CraziDud]

At the end of the day, a trans girl was murdered and her name was dragged through the mud by people who were mad at a hashtag. There's no debate to be had on anything other than semantics. Wokescolds pissed on a murdered child's grave and that is what will be remembered.

[@sHinobu2969]

I have no idea how so many people support Blitler when Vaush has clearly explained his (correct) opinion on her support of genocide many, MANY times now

[@MsScarletwings]

I made it over a Full Hour in but the sheer mental gymnastic levels of copium this guest whipped out *just* to avoid accepting professor Flowers’ L and become offended on that maniac’s behalf legitimately snapped the last bit of patience in me.

[@goshky]

Wokescolds: you are not allowed to use this term, it belongs to us, not you! Vaush: That's disgusting term Caller: How can you claim to care about unity when you call others opinion disgusting? Well, unity is not about deterrence to those who are dividing themselves

[@thesensiblesocialist]

Man, I feel like being an "ally" at this point has been reduced to exclusively obsessing over black and LGBT "issues" while ignoring all other minorities or appealing to the majority normie population in any capacity, so that the problems you raise aren't actually dealt with in any real legislative way.

[@sypherthe297th2]

I think its even worse than that and was even before the HL boycott nonsense (which was plainly bad strategy from the start). You can forget having the luxury to simply be an ally because there is an active push to turn "allies" into vassals sworn to take the orders of their movement masters uncritically. "Listen to black voices." "Listen to trans voices." Etc etc. Ok which ones specifically? Its like the Ned Flanders quote about doing all the stuff in the Bible. Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. Being a marginalized person doesn't automatically make someone a genius or a saint on these issues. Well I'm not a vassal and I don't listen to voices. I listen to and consider valid and rational arguments that people make.

[@tarickw]

You know what I'm the most offended by in the whole p***** flowers stuff? That the name starts with PROFESSOR while not having any such titles, not even Doctor. It gives so much weight and legitimacy to someone who is just talking

[@noreply6947]

Yeah it's already a red flag when you brand yourself in a similar light as Prager University. Both aren't what they advertise as.

[@iz2333]

Yeah when she first came up I thought she actually had some sort of qualification because of the name even though she's just some random moron.

[@amandagarcia2848]

I find it really sussy that she hasn't changed her name yet. People have brought this up with her and she had ignored it.

[@EmpressTiffanyOfBrittany]

@@amandagarcia2848 She'd probably say you're racist because she's black and couldn't get into college blah blah blah totally not a fascist. Seriously I'm waiting for when she shows up in a Candace Owens stream for an interview or a "discussion".

[@imlaughing2death]

Also, not a flower. Pretty sus if you ask me.

[@madisonwethington4796]

I remember watching this live on stream. I think the biggest fault I can point out is that she talks past vaush the whole time. Not in like a “I’m talking to chat and not the streamer” kind of way, but rather she seems like she just has her talking points and that’s all. Also the second person in the past couple debates to think that they are out maneuvering the discussion when it feels more like aimless circles. Idk, not that she was unpleasant or couldn’t put a sentence together. Just not much of a conversation and didn‘t sell her position very well. Which is also fine because she’s wrong 😝 lol

[@jatsko3113]

To be charitable, in the beginning I think she actually thought that when Vaush said "the arguments were invalid" she literally thought that he had not heard any of the points about the phrase being used in the American context of black women and police brutality before. Meanwhile Vaush never really elaborated on how he did actually hear those points previously, and it was with that knowledge in mind that he was deciding they were invalid. So she assumed he hadn't heard them, and he assumed she knew that he knew them. It wasn't until probably 20 or 30 minutes in that that was clarified.

[@TheClocktowerCrew]

Thats usually how women argue yeah

[@MsScarletwings]

@@TheClocktowerCrew Poe’s law moment

[@galacticmonarchy1546]

@@MsScarletwings It could be that my satire detectors are rusty but Im pretty sure this is clearly non satirical

[@artemisameretsu6905]

Like most "debates" we've seen these people don't come in to talk and connect and try to actually make sense of things they just want to say their bits, get their "owning vaush" clip and go. I was so frustrated listening to her describe how vaush doing the exact thing she thought he should during the PF harassment portion was being cucked. How is it cucked to stop giving a shit about someone's "harassment" TWO YEARS LATER when you already did everything you could to rectify the situation. Not to mention the subtle shaming she did on vaush about not calling out someone who leaked their private, sexual conversations. Had Vaush been a chick she would have never talked down to him and it just pisses me off how two faced so many on the left are

[@noahmarler716]

Dude why was she UwU giggling every time you gave a reasonable response to the things she claimed to have an issue with. I know it’s fun to jib and jab in the middle of a debate, but the fact that she thinks she gets disrespect silly ‘ol racist Vaush and walk away shaking her head like you failed to live up to the legend was actually disgusting behavior. Insane that people are still relitigating the PF discourse. Just goes to show that no one really watched the debate and only defer to the mythos that was created around it

[@CT22222]

I feel this comment is incredibly unreasonable. Plenty of people have seemingly inappropriate reactions to stress, including laughter, and being on the opposite side of Vaush in a debate is stressful even for people who have experience and media training, much less a Discord random.

[@lallig8860]

@@CT22222 nah nah nah nah. she was joker laughing, very obviously intentionally trying to intone her voice for uwu sentiment at times, & immediately explicitly going for gotchas.

[@CT22222]

@@lallig8860 I dunno what to say to this beyond “this sound psychotic, get some help.” I dunno why the comments are being so insanely rabid on this, it’s wild. Honestly this is more negative than I’ve seen some comment sections on debates with Nazis.

[@lallig8860]

@@CT22222 go away psy-op i'm sure the "intolerant Left" will never recover

[@CT22222]

@@lallig8860 “psy-op” get a load of yourself. I despise wokescolds, but I think the hate and weird comments she’s getting aren’t proportional to that.

[@tarickw]

PF wasn't trying to explain a nuanced point, she was advocating the morality of a policy applied to a real country. there isn't some "accidental effects" from applying it to a specific country

[@jessemiller4953]

I haven't watched the debate yet, and I actually (as of right now) believe that this person has some pretty decent views on trans people, HOWEVER, I find it genuinely terrifying that a person has been murdered and insulted by the press and she seems more mad about the hashtag progressives use. It genuinely makes me feel unsafe.

[@olivialewis1027]

"i looked at a lot of twitter and prepped for this"

[@oscerthefool]

watch this live, both me and my partner couldn't make sense of her argument at all and besides the fact that it started out as an indigenous thing negates anything she could say regardless

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Ever hear of BIPoC? There is a precedent there. Besides you're making a tu couque fallacy. You don't think that the hash tag should only be used for indigenous women, so why do you care? As a Trans Vaush fan, I'm offended that this comment section sucks at making arguments.

[@oscerthefool]

​@@JebeckyGranjola it shows that black folk don't own the hashtag and that its fine to use on other minorities, even according to the person debating this. but even if a few indigenous people did care about the hashtag, yeah I still wouldn't find that valid, given (gestures broadly)

[@oscerthefool]

@@JebeckyGranjola also you just made the Fallacy Fallacy lmao. I wasnt making an argument. I said I was confused by her rhetoric and that her hypocrisy made me skeptical of anything he had to say.

[@Skeeeewoah]

I feel like this debate is just pointless. It's an issue people are steadfast on, on both sides. And it's already "over with". Brianna is already out of sight and out of mind. When she was in everyone's minds people fought about a hashtag instead. This whole thing has been incredibly depressing

[@JebeckyGranjola]

Thank you. It's nice to see people on here have some perspective. In all this, as almost always, Trans people are the ones who suffer the losses.

[@Lavender_enjoyer]

Hard to feel like that wasn’t the point of the “discourse” to begin with

[@lloroshastar6347]

Yeah it took 5 minutes for a Tory Councillor to lie about a trans woman saying to her 'I'm going to wipe my hands on my jeans' in a bathroom and turning it into a fearmongering article about trans people. The Tories here in the UK are advocating for trans genocide, they don't care that Brianna's dead, they willed it to happen. Transphobes need to be fought, and we need to fight them collectively, because if we don't there will be more death, suffering and extremist laws designed to erase trans people.

[@heheheiamasuperstarcatgirl8485]

24:04 all lives matter merged with black lives matter muddles an intersectional message, say her name being merged reinforces an intersectional message Flying under the same flag is different than "diluting"

[@stevenbryant1011]

Yeah, I know its not the exact same, but its similar to people who say "why do game Devs do this when this needs fixing!" Like bro, we can work on both at the same time, this whole thing is honestly stupid

[@GameAddictionTV]

This honestly feels like she has a deranged hate-crush on Vaush and she got so wrapped up in the parasocial culture that she's using this topic as an excuse to talk to him. The way she responds is such an uncanny valley between giggling underclassmen and passive aggressive gaslighting that it actually triggers my fight or flight response.

[@emilchan5379]

I am glad I was not the only one who got that vibe from her. I felt weirded out the entire time during this debate for that reason.

[@MsScarletwings]

Literally, it felt so uncomfortable when she started getting bizarrely *personally pressed* and outraged about the professor flowers and the Israel thing. Most of it felt like a typical debate up until that point and then it’s like she couldn’t help but start whipping out an axe to grind with Vaush over something completely irrelevant to the original conversation

[@GraceDupre]

I haven’t even gotten as far as the PF part yet; I’m still on the Kat Blaque thing and that does seem to account for the weird tone of this debate…

[@IMatchoNation]

It's amazing what you can get away with when you present as a femme tenderqueer. What a toxic person.

[@d3l3tes00n]

The toxicity is suffocating.

[@sciaphobia1751]

I admire Vaush's patience. A lot of the times he has debates I have to frequently pause the video so that my brain doesn't completely succumb to the assault against it.

[@monotypical_]

I saw this live and it was one of the most insufferable debates I’ve seen in a while.

[@noblerook]

@@Ass_of_Amalek His only L was deciding to have the debate at all

[@DellikkilleD]

@@Ass_of_Amalek His hypocrisy was on full display here.

[@sulaimankhuhro8717]

@@Ass_of_Amalek Russia simp detected

[@Lavender_enjoyer]

@@Ass_of_Amalek no

[@LuisManuelLealDias]

@@Ass_of_Amalek lmao ok I actually liked the conversation, but you actually named yourself "for putin" talk about taking the L 🤣

[@pedrosaraiva]

I’m 2 minutes in and my alarms already went off when she said “I don’t think chat needs my pronouns in order to say I’m wrong” - sussy wussy. Lets see where this goes.

[@mrthewhite2620]

I always thought this was dumb but in another vid Vaush mentioned that say her name was originally for aboriginal missing/murdered women which invalidated any argument a black person has on ownership.

[@bibsp3556]

It's a slogan, nobody owns shit. People just desperate to have meaningless conflict

[@jlhn]

Honestly, one of the things I think reveals the whole problem with this say her name thing, was that time I was on Twitter, and saw one account who was unironically saying that Brianna was just some white girl. Later, they posted something that begun with: “The thing whites and nonblacks don’t understand…” And I was so baffled, like, as a mexican with brown skin, the fact that I had been discriminated in the past because of my skin color doesn’t matter because I’m not black? They just very willingly converted this complex situation into an “us vs them” problem, a simplistic dichotomy with no space for nuance. Like, I understand that this is probably born out of the fact that they feel powerless against the system, and then they lash out against other minorities, so they can feel better. But damn, I’m just nonblack? A nonexistence? Next time, just call me a slur, geez.

[@codymac4958]

Damn. Really interesting to hear your opinion from your perspective tbh thanks for sharing

[@bibsp3556]

And that person, was a racist. Or a Russian bot

[@Gloomdrake]

​@@bibsp3556 ¿Por que no los dos?

[@blueguy2431]

I remember watching this live and it was so painful.

[@PortalOpps39]

skipped to the end and her screaming about Israel was not the direction I thought this was going to go😭

[@artemisameretsu6905]

Yeah kinda started to see why she was so determined to defend Professor Flowers... got real awkward real fast..

[@Gloomdrake]

I'm not there yet. Sounds ominous

[@thejackal007]

Her damn near worship-levels of Prof. Flowers were disturbing to say the least. I doubt it takes a Vaush fan to have watched the debates and see the position she had on deportation and colonization. I have no idea what this video's guest was watching.

[@VexytheWolf]

True! Holy crap the boot licking people do for Prof. Flowers is nonsensical

[@manuelmialdea5127]

Remember Noah Samsen being shown exactly what she said and saying: "no, I won't believe what I have in front if me"? I think that's exactly what's happening.

[@symphomaniac]

I'm an hour and twenty in and now I'm reading this wondering how tf we end up talking about PF AGAIN

[@collinroessner1955]

Well she said she was Israeli, or at least lives in Israel, so there’s a decent chance she had some really questionable takes on genocide too

[@artemisameretsu6905]

​@@collinroessner1955 Those were the vibes I got. Funny how she got labeled "crazy" for her views on Israel but didn't really go into detail on why they thought that about her after she goes super hard for PF :/ Like I'm not saying she's genocidal against Israeli Jews but like, damn was she giving off some creepy ass vibes and this is coming from someone who 100% thinks Zionists are out of their fucking minds

[@garywebb2432]

this was 2 hours and 40 mins of pain and suffering actually

[@ImaginaryMdA]

Wokescolds stop bringing up Professor Flowers challenge level: impossible.

[@goshky]

to sum up callers position: Why don't you say things I want you to say the way I want you to say but insist on saying those things the way you prefer?

[@xouptvey]

This is the first time I've actually felt the parasociality wafting off a self described fan... This was so awkward.

[@josequiles7430]

Always a good sign when you have to argue the semantics of genocide to prove how totally not genocidal your positions are.

[@papermario3982]

She had some really good points about Say Her Name (like, when she framed it as the name of a movement and compared it to other movements using Land Back and other hashtags) and moved me over a little, but then when they started talking about other stuff and then god help us PF it all fell apart LMAO. If people insist on bringing up the PF debate over and over again I am begging them to ACTUALLY WATCH IT

[@kinoate]

The thing is, that wikipedia page literally debunked her claims that it's for black women only....which she was already told it wasn't and kept on acting like it was.

[@IfOUGHTpIRANHAz]

She did make some good points on Say Her Name until PF. That’s why I’m not surprised this didn’t end up on the main channel.

[@kinoate]

@@IfOUGHTpIRANHAz She was pretty off-base even before that

[@Sparten7F4]

I spent thirty seconds trying to figure out what 'PF' was before the trauma resurfaced lmao

[@JassZoigel]

Party finder?

[@4supergamma]

Vaush playing Returnal during this debate is so thematically appropriate to how it went I'm not convinced he didn't play it on purpose

[@quinnrosenberg3500]

I just finished the game recently, so it was very frustrating to see him die over and over in the swamp forest level. Oh my god, dont try to melee the squid turrets, just shoot them.

[@Gloomdrake]

​@@quinnrosenberg3500 he's a Bloodborne streamer, not a Returnal streamer

[@imbatteries]

Why is she laughing at such weird, inappropriate times? Vaush: I got death threats Her: laughs uncontrollably

[@kap1618]

Because she doesn't believe it or want to believe it. To some people it really is oppression Olympics. People like this believe they have a monopoly on being an abuse victim.

[@archerfan66]

You can tell how fake most of them are

[@archerfan66]

You can tell how fake most of them are

[@jimshotfirst4887]

Probably nervous laughing or something? Debate is stressful, idk. Edit: nvm she's laughing at the most random times, idk what her deal is

[@glich86]

People react to uncomfortable situations differently. It might mean nothing, it might be a sign she's a sociopath. Any assumptions beyond "it's a nervous tick" is reading into it and you probably shouldn't assume.

[@JRHainsworth]

Professor Flowers does not advocate for genocide. Professor Flowers does not call white people colonisers. There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

[@donovanlocust1106]

1. Yes, she does. 2. Yes , she does 3. Get a new reference

[@JRHainsworth]

@@donovanlocust1106 Wait, did you think I was on her side?

[@donovanlocust1106]

@@JRHainsworth if you aren't then I feel dumb (˃̣̣̥▽˂̣̣̥)

[@JRHainsworth]

@@donovanlocust1106 I assumed “There is no war in ba sing se “ was a pretty well known “There is obviously a war in ba sing se…”

[@donovanlocust1106]

@@JRHainsworth well it's a reference to Avatar. (Of the Airbending variety)

[@NapalmAssasian]

Some people just need to be told their opinions are stupid. The idea that we have to like be conciliatory and admit that their criticism is valid infuriates me.

[@Linkard]

She genuinely sounded like Harley Quinn at times

[@CookedLikeaCookie]

Does anyone else notice that she does this tone inflection like shes doing baby talk? Sounds super annoying and a weak attempt at being manipulative

[@d3l3tes00n]

I could immediately hear it in her voice. No way I could sit & talk to this person.

[@CookedLikeaCookie]

@@d3l3tes00n thats her intent, dont let it get to ya

[@justcallmekai1554]

It was similar to what Mel did doing the "hehe I'm so cute uwu" which makes some ppl infantilize her. Maybe that's just the way she laughs but under this context and timing it's a bit weird.

[@TheLightlock]

Gotta say, insinuating that your host is being dishonest in the first 10 seconds is a questionable opener