Vaush Talks To Kyle Kulinski About His HOT TAKE On Otherkin & Xenogenders

Clipped from my longer conversation with Kyle Kulinski--you can check out the full version here:
• CONFRONTING Kyle Kulin...
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#KyleKulinski #SecularTalk #Vaush

[@BigHoss03]

This conversation for me was like when Jimmy Neutron went on Fairly Odd Parents. Kyle was my introduction to the online left, so this was awesome for me.

[@chargingbadger_]

Kyle also got me into the left. I think his focus on kitchen table issues and general normie-ness makes him especially palatable to people who aren’t already on the left. He is possibly the most important left-wing KZbinr for that reason.

[@Thatturtlethatsaysmeanthings]

Same

[@vextierier9938]

Same here

[@erichernandez3705]

@@chargingbadger_ the Kyle to vauosh pipeline is real😩

[@kneesnap1041]

@@erichernandez3705 afraid I'm counted in this too!

[@Mangofett23]

With all this talk about xenogenders, let’s not forget about xenomorphs, the true apex predator

[@paulreulet454]

Or Xenogear.

[@WhiteScorpio2]

Xenomorphs are parasites, though, not predators.

[@Mangofett23]

@@WhiteScorpio2 perhaps they are beyond the predator/prey/parasite paradigm. Maybe they have reached a new evolutionary model: Based

[@robbaldwin2402]

Painting them all as predators? A dangerous game.

[@internetual7350]

@@robbaldwin2402 Veganmorphs.

[@stephenjacobs5916]

I'm pretty much on the "If you aren't hurting anyone then who cares?" side of this subject. If you want to be a wolf then be a wolf. Just don't go around biting ppl.

[@FerociousPaul]

Unless they're into it

[@melanienebula2550]

Especially if they're into it

[@jdavis7993]

I think the argument Kyle is making is, while it is NOT a degenerate hobby, it's a hobby and not a gender. It's harmful to Trans people to say that your fetish is a gender, because it fetishizes the existence of Trans people and distracts and detracts from the notion that they are the gender they ascribe to.

[@estebandelasexface8193]

@@jdavis7993 especially because trans people get called transphobic or accused of misgendering when they're like hey this is not really the same and your larping isn't really a gender. Hell I got called transphobic because I thought it was iffy to have specific pronouns depending on whether the person talking to you is white and trans.

[@jelledesmet7086]

Hmm, I do care about medical reality more, especially when it comes how I practically socialize with others. I find it hard, maybe even absurd, to socially consider a human being as if they were a non-human species.

[@bicthboy4life619]

Kyle looks like one of those dads whose hair is always kinda wet

[@sandrat9309]

I think that's just people who use hair gel

[@bicthboy4life619]

@@sandrat9309 I am aware thank u

[@delos2279]

Yea gelled hair was big in the late 90s and early 2000s. Kyle just never grew out of it.

[@suspended_top_spin]

​@@sandrat9309 Or minoxidil. :D

[@jarrettlowery2802]

@@sandrat9309 either that or he just has greasy hair

[@DaanP95]

Kyle advocating for transracial identity just shows me that he wants to be able to answer the question who is houngry

[@ash12181987]

You did well with that one. Wasn't sure where we were going at first, and then you stuck the landing.

[@whysocurious7366]

@KZbin is highkey garbage yeah, but Dore is just some idiot right-winger, so who cares?

[@riskofreina]

what the fuck is 'houngry' ;-;

[@zakaryrichmond396]

@@whysocurious7366 well who was in Paris do you know

[@Sugarman96]

He wants the pass, if only to answer that important question.

[@bbwolf326]

Kyle made a point about there not being examples of people who are "trans racial" outside of a handful of examples. As an older black person that amused me because we have always had transracial people and the phenomenon is in no way new in our culture. People who "pass" fit this definition. Also, I think the reason that Rachel Dolezal and the other examples seem so extreme is because they are white women, and at least in America, that was the most protected class of people and the standard for beauty. People seem to find it to almost be an insult for them to wish to identify as anything other than that. My 2 cents

[@songofthieves]

I'm sure there wouldn't be as big a backlash to the idea if the public's first major exposure to it hadn't been someone lying for clout. If Dolezal had claimed she was "transracial" BEFORE she was called out, it wouldn't have felt like a cop-out on par with Kevin Spacey's "coming out" after his allegations of pedophilia.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@songofthieves But can it be proven that's why she was doing it, or is it just a judgment based on feelings?

[@TheSquareOnes]

@@FelisImpurrator It's a judgement based on feelings, which makes sense because they're talking about how the general public feels about the issue. The entire point is that it's more of a perceived issue, whether or not that perception is entirely true.

[@jahcode6132]

We don’t see Transracial as a thing but if there were millions of people suffering from racial dysphoria where the only cure is to come out as a different race then it would probably be a different conversation.

[@chuletajones6833]

Growing up in the Bronx everyone around me was "hood." Everyone said the n word regardless of race and at no point did anyone who isn't black start magically getting darker every time they said it. Vaush's response unintentionally points out the main issue with racism and thats the belief that you can attribute certain behaviors and actions to certain people based solely off their skin color. Being hood doesn't mean you're black. Using proper grammar and sounding educated doesn't mean you're white. Essentially what im saying is that if a person grows up in the hood and is as ghetto as they come it doesn't mean they're now black. They're just hood.

[@falkorornothing261]

One of the reasons he is for abolishing race. Knowing that we have a way to go before that could become a reality. In the middle class school I went to nobody was "hood". No matter what their race. It was over 80% white.

[@soulife8383]

In the way he separated gender into biological & identity, the same could technically be done with culture & race. "Hood" falls into culture territory. It's cultural in nature, the racist part I suppose is attributing to a race. So to be transracial is to be racist in a sense? Or the opposite, similar to transgender? The latter is the separation of biology from identity, but the former is a merger of biological race & culture.

[@greywolf7577]

But isn't gender the same way? Just because you have long hair doesn't make you a woman. Just because you have big muscles doesn't make you a man.

[@Undeadsweater]

Thank you for saying this. If someone says they are “transracial” in the way many people are using it now, I kind of just think they’re racist. If they were to say something like “transcultural” or that they identify with a culture people don’t typically associate with the race they are, there would be absolutely no problem.

[@falkorornothing261]

@@greywolf7577 long hair and big muscles could just be describing Falkor 😁

[@leadstomach9397]

You two should absolutely start a pod cast.

[@Pllayer064]

More like pot cast amirite

[@harrymassey5218]

kyle is busy doing a pod with someone who provides value

[@leadstomach9397]

@@harrymassey5218 everyone on earth provides value

[@harrymassey5218]

@@leadstomach9397 vaush does not

[@rodneysmith4499]

Get them both on Chapo Traphouse

[@mannyogu8124]

This is actually a smart take from Vaush with explaining how race doesn't have what sex and gender have.

[@wa-bu3ke]

A fail one since it's much more societally important

[@mkh29mail]

@@wa-bu3ke I would argue societal discrimination based on gender on the world is on average higher. The United States happens to be a very racist place, but in a lot of countries like orthodox christian and muslim ones racism is not a huge thing. However, gender stereotypes and reinforced traditional gender norms definitely are. Vaush's point about this being more of a modern societal phenomena is a very salient one

[@kyleflournoy7730]

Shouldn't that mean that it's MORE reasonable and MORE acceptable to be trans racial than transgender, since it's based on even less objective realities?

[@wa-bu3ke]

@@mkh29mail Because you have a white supremacist perspective like Vaush

[@NinjaThatLongboards]

@@wa-bu3ke how is vaush a white supremacist?

[@sampie4489]

"Transgenderism? Totally get it. Transracialism? I kinda get it. The one I actually struggle with is the otherkin shit. Where I'm like, I don't know about that dog." makes me giggle 2:51

[@johnconly4853]

Absolutely hilarious 😂

[@YukonBloamie]

The intersectionality between gender and race has never been a mystery to me. Being mixed race and thinking of myself as such, while being racialized a different way in mainstream society, and being racialized a different way in a different segment of society makes me clearly understand how it is for a transgender person in that way. Once you realize how you are perceived by different groups of people, you then are always dealing with double consciousness when your safety and security are concerned. This is always an issue for women too.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Not "always". It's not an essential property. It's an emergent property, and what it is is simply - traumatic hypervigilance. Seriously. A heightened level of consciousness toward one's safety is a conditioned response to trauma; the best way to address it isn't to internalize the condition of being socially vulnerable as an identity-trait, but rather to engage in rational threat assessment based on one's real situation.

[@2FadeMusic]

sup fellow superior mixed person 😎

[@YukonBloamie]

@@FelisImpurrator lmao there's more to an identity than generational trauma just like there's more to being a woman than having a vagina. KZbin is wild today

[@YukonBloamie]

@@2FadeMusic Sup, Fam!? 😎

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@YukonBloamie I was responding to your claim that there's "always" double consciousness. That literally is, in fact, just generational trauma. Identity on the other hand is a matter of self-identification, whether it's with a group or a specific, individual trait. I mean, fuck it. I'm trans and I'm from an immigrant family, and I live in a conservative-ass Catholic country where the first of those things still gets people black bagged. I don't occupy my thoughts with constant anxiety about safety beyond baseline practicality, because I don't really see a point to it. Do you have an argument, or are you just going to keep being performatively incredulous about the idea that "feeling unsafe" isn't an essential identity property? I genuinely can't tell if I wasn't specific enough, or if you're just knee-jerking without any actual comprehension.

[@markhegedus1981]

This was a great convo, have Kyle on again!

[@brittany9233]

I'm really glad to see Vaush having Kyle on again. I feel bad for Kyle (as much as he is responsible for his own choices regarding the Dore/TYT fallout) because he has always seemed like a good faith actor to me and his hesitance to take a real stand on some issues, and some people, have really damaged his reputation. Vaush is helping bring some more validity to him in my opinion, in Vaushs willingness to speak to pretty much anyone. Theres so much overlap among people who watch/follow them both, like me, and I hope some people are recovering their opinions of Kyle. He doesnt deserve lasting hate.

[@PandemoniumVice]

They're two of the only content creators I watch regularly. I'd love to see them talking like this more often on cultural issues.

[@xenos_n.]

I've always liked Kyle. I'm so sick of people acting like if somebody has a negative trait then they need to be completely dismissed because every single person is flawed, there's absolutely nobody on this Earth where I like everything about them.

[@greatcesari]

@@yomomma5086 I don’t know. Everything is an ultimatum with Republicans. Most of them will reject you if you align anymore than 1% with “liberals,” “socialists,” “queers,” “science,” etc.

[@wa-bu3ke]

Vaush is toxic though and attacked Dore when Vaush has said way worse about women

[@xenos_n.]

@@wa-bu3ke Dore sexually harassed Ana Kasparian at work in front of other people, denied it was sexual harassment, and laughed about it. While Vaush acted inappropriate with a female friend in private and has admitted it was fucked up and wrong and regrets it. Dore is a slimeball, Vaush is actually respectable.

[@Nomad-qm3zf]

For the love of God you don't have to change your race just because you speak differently and like different music holy shit. We don't need to create more things, just accept the variety of individuals.

[@RockyPondProductions]

Exactly, creating so many labels that labels have their own labels. People just need to live their lives and let people do their thing as long as their positions are not hurting anyone.

[@greywolf7577]

Similarly, you don't need to change your gender just because your interests are different from what your gender normally likes.

[@thesevenkingswelove9554]

@@greywolf7577 but what if you feel like changing your body appreance maybe getting huge t-ts or getting a d--k. That should be okay right? Since its something that they want in the first place

[@Nomad-qm3zf]

@@JPEGBLACK Yeah changing words tends to change the meanings of things

[@amyh3873]

Your born with gender disphoria as gender id emerges at a young age well before environmental influences can take hold. Racial appropriation is purely environmental. It's not hard wired like gender id thus it's not as relevant or impactful for those afflicted.

[@livewellwitheds6885]

the culture & race conversation resonated with me because of living in Korea and being very involved in the Asian community when I came back. all my friends were Asian, I lived in Korea town, and was bilingual and regularly spoke Korean. I always had others tell me I "didn't count as Asian" or was "an egg" weird term for whites who act Asian and struggled to adjust

[@halversonnoel0]

That has always bugged me, because russia is part of asia. That makes everyone born in russia technically asian despite (correct me if im wrong) the majority being white. Same with india but i dont know if people consider chinese people and indian people the same as they would with chinese or japanese and whatnot.

[@--julian_]

@@halversonnoel0 for Russia isn't it more like if you're born in Moscow you're European and if you're from, say Siberia you're Asian?

[@fluidthought42]

Here's an interesting question: were you called an "egg" by Asians in Britain or by Koreans in (presumably South) Korea?

[@Undeadsweater]

@@halversonnoel0 Russia is part of both Europe and Asia. While most Russian land is located in Asia, about 3/4ths of the Russian population live in the part of Russia that is in Europe. Genetically/racially, there are many people who are asian, and many who could be considered white, but also many that are somewhere in between. Russia is a big place. Not all Russians are Asian, though. Also, India is fully in Asia, so yes, Indians are Asian. Chinese and Japanese are East Asian, whereas Indians and those from countries in that area are South Asian. There’s also countries like the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. that are southeast Asian. Though many Americans/westerners think mostly of East Asians when someone describes a person as “Asian”, it’s due to lack of knowledge about the other regions of Asia. Asia is HUGE, as it is the most populous continent, and home to so many different cultures and genetic groups. Hopefully in the future, Americans will better understand this and not assume Asians are only East Asian.

[@boxlessone1046]

“Your one of the people I consume fairly regularly” Vaush’s vore sex life exposed!!!

[@willstout5988]

My two favorite lefty youtubers :) love seeing the discussions you guys have, they are always interesting and well spoken

[@sweetfeathery]

Damn I thought this was a hot take on Xenogears for the PlayStation

[@geovaughan8261]

I’m a furry. I identify online as a rabbit. It’s a part of my identity that I explore. Many of my friends explore different identities that are not human. None of us are asking to marry our pets. If someone wanted to marry their pet, we would find this absurd and probably wrong. Kyle is acting like otherkin are pushing for things they don’t push for because he finds a concept weird and hard to wrap his brain around. There is so much speculation here about what it is to be an otherkin and where that comes from, and none of it is based on lived experience. Maybe talk to an otherkin next time.

[@FaalDovah]

As an otherkin exactly. Doing that stuff to animals is wrong. We know we have a human body lol. Thanks for defending us.

[@PunkZombie1300]

To be fair I don't think he was saying otherkins/furries want to marry their pets. It sounded more like he was saying that "if you allow gay marriage then what's next, marrying your pets?" was an obviously absurd argument, but "if you allow people to be trans/non-binary then what's next, people identifying as animals?" seems equally absurd but is actually happening. The way he worded it could come across as him saying the "marrying your pets" part was what was happening, but I think he was just using the former statement as a stand in for the latter and stating the latter was happening.

[@BigaloMax]

My view on "trans racialism" is that people are conflating race and culture way to much . Usually what people mean about them being back or native when they are white is that they listen to hip hop and or love wearing feathers in there head but just cause you are black doesn't mean you like hip hop music , just cause you are puertorican doesn't mean you like reggaeton or bachata , just cause you are asian doesn't mean you like chinese food so really... trans racialism is being essentialist of culture.

[@Saurawr]

That is my same inclination. Elizabeth Warren, to my understanding, grew up believing that she was part native. Now, it turns out she isn't, but that doesnt mean that it wasn't an important part of her mindset and culture growing up, or to her parents. That she felt that kinship and connection has worth and isn't erased and is part of her identity. Its very embarrassing that it turns out it wasn't genetically true, but does that really make it less true to the past versions of her? Or even to the current version of her? I don't buy trans-racialism, but I do buy that as more time passes we will lessen how important we find race and embrace how important we find cultural associations

[@devonr.554]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, could you help me? My understanding of the idea goes something like this: Race isn't really "real" in any meaningful sense, it's all socially constructed. If that's the case, then any differences between, say, Hispanic or Asian people is a consequence of the social and cultural norms of their respective environments. If that's the case, then what is "race" outside of culture? If somebody said they were, for instance, "transcultural," would that be different in this context from saying they are transracial, and would either be valid?

[@vyxxer]

Right right exactly. A pasty guy speaking in ebonic slang and sagging his pants isn't pretending to be black he's just acting like he's from the hood. I think that person mentioned in the conversation is just a weeb for canadian natives, which is fine is she's not essentialist about it. Dances with Wolves.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@kg356 That's just called racism, my dude. Identities shouldn't be defined based on the ways people discriminate against others.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@devonr.554 I mean, yes. The problem is that race realism is like capitalist realism: Falsely believing that a wholly artificial, constructed dynamic is somehow essentially part of human society and an immutable fact of the world. In reality, it IS just culture, and frankly, we need to disabuse people of the notion that biological essentialism means anything in an existential sense.

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

Kyle's such an adorable boomer lmao

[@Mircalla]

I think that xenogenders, while valid, have absolutely nothing to do with gender. If that's what someone wants to do with their life, if that's how someone feels most comfortable, that's fine, more power to them, but it has absolutely nothing to do with gender. Being a man, being a woman, or being neither, is a completely separate thing from being a wolf. By all means act like a wolf if you want, but don't call yourself "wolf-gender".

[@theearthisnotflat4398]

Fun fact. Hitler was an other kin. He referred to himself as the wolf and got mad when people didn't call him that

[@inteallsviktigt]

The problem is logicaly for trans to be logically consistent we can’t deny it

[@theearthisnotflat4398]

@@inteallsviktigt yeah no. Gender is a social construct and is still within the bounds of humanity because we're human. That makes sense. Science has proven it to be true too. What are they saying when they're saying they're a wolf? What does that mean? How do we test to see if any of their claims are true? How do we diagnose species dysphoria like we do with gender dysphoria? They just don't have the same backing that transgender people have. They don't even transition like how many transgender people do to treat their dysphoria. They aren't doing any of the things wolves actually do. They don't lick their ass. They're just furries which is fine but you're not actually a wolf. Alpha wolf and beta wolf too was a myth that emerged from incorrect studying of wolves' social structure. So do they want to be this incorrect *idea* of a wolf or like an actual wolf. The answer is more likely the first.

[@ilonachan]

There was actually an interesting post about animal-type xenogenders, and the gist is that being "bunnygender" doesn't mean you think you're a bunny, like in an otherkin sense perhaps. It's really just a metaphor like the other noungenders. If you have a very concrete idea of what your gender feels like, but there are no words to describe that feeling, you try and invent a word based on associations that fit, and maybe the concept that fits best is an animal name. As someone who's not xenogender that's hard to wrap my head around, but it sorta makes sense right?

[@sarahscott434]

@@theearthisnotflat4398 All things that we know of are just ideas of them. Some of the ideas are more empirical than others, sure, but trans people are not comparing themselves to the gender they are empirically. The idea of a wolf that an otherkin has in their mind is a construct as much as sexual gender, which I think is what vaush's point was.

[@russellward4624]

I would separate race and culture. I don't think they're the same thing at all. You can relate to other cultures and apot them but that doesn't change your race.

[@bigsquez]

What’s your thoughts on Michael Jackson’s race before and after his skin turned white? Did you feel his race changed or did you feel he was still black?

[@KingMapleSeed]

Yea I think people are missing the point, you can’t act “black” or act “white”. These are just stereotypes based on classes. When people think of acting black like vaush pointed out they may think of people from skid row or ghettos, but that’s a wrong way of thinking. You can be any race and belong to a certain class, like the white Poole in skid row or black peoples in Beverly Hills. Just because you like how a certain group acts doesn’t mean you need to change your race or skin color. Race and class is not the same and I think people who assume people act a certain way because of race and not culture or class are wrong

[@russellward4624]

@@bigsquez yes he was still black. Just because he lightened his skin because he's got a skin disease and wanted to minimal the blotchyness doesn't make him not black.

[@PumpkinSpicePretzels]

To have true Otherkin rights, we need our own bathrooms with our preferred bodily waste environment, such as a small room with some grass and dirt.

[@lolcowtv2146]

exactly!

[@Charles-pf7zy]

No. Just no

[@alliandrablack7751]

The funny thing about otherkin and therians is that when I originally came into contact with the furry community I had yet to find out I was trans, so I projected my unidentified dysphoria onto those concepts for a few years. Luckily, just being in the furry community led to me being introduced to more and more trans people, which led to me learning about gender identity in general and eventually discovering my own transness. If nothing else, these ideas can lead people to more correct answers about the problems they're struggling with, though it'd certainly be preferable if we could have been educated on the damn subject.

[@TheSpeep]

Interesting, I've actually seen a video from a youtuber I used to watch a lot about how she kinda did the same thing via the MLP community as a sort of outlet for her own transition. (I feel like I worded that in perhaps the clumsiest way possible, but I dont wanna be too specific on stuff I dont remember in detail so I'm trying to be vague.)

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

So will the government have to make a department specialized for people who believe in animals? Will tax dollars have to be funded to catering to people who believe they’re deer? Will our politicians have to discuss the plight that furries go through? Cuz I don’t want live in a world where there’s a bill pending on the senate floor about that.

[@vyxxer]

@@dylanbuchanan6511 No, not really. This will probably only ever be limited to KZbin videos and discord channels. This is such a subculture thing you'll never see in reality in all probability.

[@dylanbuchanan6511]

@@vyxxer Good.

[@Freyaundergrowth]

@@dylanbuchanan6511 bro we can’t even get universal health care in this country u don’t have to worry about that

[@tasharoo2659]

for xenogenders I always just thought of it as like a vibe that someone feels describes their gender.

[@LunaGer]

I love when you and Kyle have a chat. Always enlightening

[@daimen06]

You know when I was younger this kind of stuff used to irriate me. Otherkin and furries and stuff. Mostly because I didn't understand it and it just seemed so silly to me. As I've gotten older I've realized that it's not really my business. Everyone on this planet is struggling be happy to themselves to live their life as they see fit. Who am I to bregudge some one that. We're constantly reminded to just be yourself. As a kid who grew in the 90s that's was everything you consumed. Just be yourself. So to each their own. I know that its not for me. But who cares about me right. You can't please everyone on your pursuit to happiness. As long as no one is getting hurt. I don't see the big deal.

[@BeefPapa]

I see Kyle and I fumble my phone trying to tap

[@johnsnow5968]

Put it this way, folks: Biologically, Marco Rubio is Hispanic. His parents are both Cuban. Does Marco have the same racial experience in America as a Cuban refugee who arrived two weeks ago?

[@davidpaul6290]

Better question, does that matter?

[@--julian_]

what does it meanto be biologically "hispanic"?

[@johnsnow5968]

@@--julian_ the only thing that any race ever means - his family is from a place

[@johnsnow5968]

@@davidpaul6290 I'm pointing out that "trans racialism" is a perfectly normal thing people do every day as long as they're not "recognizably" not a thing,appearance wise. Im from Boston. What percentage of the population of this city do you figure strongly identifies as Irish or Italian while being 0% that, "biologically"?

[@--julian_]

@@johnsnow5968 you know you can be of any origin and Hispanic too? Asian Hispanic, white Hispanic, black Hispanic, indigenous Hispanic, mixed Hispanic... where's the biology?

[@thinkublu]

I hope you can have Kyle on again, this was great - also, I love all these lil clip uploads, they also give these convos more exposure

[@ThaTruFily]

Finally more Kyle! My fav YT channel with Vaush ^^

[@pikemand1410]

I think the comparison to astrology makes a good point. Being otherkin thing isn't 'really' a self-identity in the same way as being trans is, they're only superficially similar, being an animal is not a social role and the whole 'Figurative comparison' angle that Vaush has been working for a while is not only far-fetched, it is also not how literally any Otherkin I've ever seen talk about themselves. Being otherkin is a spiritual/religious belief and can only be properly understood through that lens. That being said, I don't understand why Vaush is so intent on making 'Astrology, but somehow even more baseless and stupid' palatable. The fact that something isn't obviously harmful, and I would argue that mystical beliefs like Astrology absolutely do cause harm, doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to make fun of it.

[@FelisImpurrator]

Why do we even need prescriptive social roles to dictate people's expressions of identity? There's no point to any of it. Abolish gender, abolish race, just let people identify however the fuck they want if it doesn't do harm. No arbitrary prescriptive social role is any more valid than any other except by way of utility, and there's a lot of made up bullshit society holds up as mandatory despite its utter uselessness right now, so whatever. If you want to make fun of people for it, sure, but don't pretend there's some lofty moral or logical reason - just own it, you're expressing a personal bias and being kind of a dick. That's fine if you're honest about the fact that you just personally dislike it. Seriously. Everyone does it, moral virtue is bullshit anyway. A judgmental opinion is just an expression of personal like or dislike, and everyone has likes or dislikes, so say it with your whole chest. If people don't like you for it, well, that's fair, isn't it? You don't like them either, so it's to be expected.

[@lolcowtv2146]

I'm neither spiritual not religious and I'm a bull.. I'll give you an explanation to fix both your ideas of transness and your idea of therianism.. It's about what we relate to.. simple as that.. Nothing about fulfilling a social/ecological role Nothing about spirituality or religion it's just to what representation we relate to..

[@nickmccabe2327]

Let's keep it real. If Eminem said he was black, the majority of people wouldn't be offended. They would laugh their ass off.

[@greywolf7577]

A lot of people would laugh their ass off too if he said he was a woman.

[@nickmccabe2327]

@@greywolf7577 true

[@pragmaticpolitics1413]

bro I been too busy to watch all the streams recently but you need to stahp it. these thumbnails are killing me lmao

[@SOLIDShift_VI]

Vaush thinks of Wolves -- the acutely social, pack animal as-- independent.

[@5kinspace646]

I don’t think they distinguished the difference between xenogender and other kin in a way that could help bring a better perspective on what exactly these are

[@unlikelysuspect5491]

Cool convo

[@ironickrempt]

Xenogenders are non-binary microdescriptors, and they are self prescribed, which is very important to the concept. Being solely applied by the self, and being infinite in theoretic number, it would be very unlikely for rigid social expectations to develop, thus allowing people to live as they wish and describe themselves as they wish. Point being: widespread acceptance and use of xenogenders is effectively gender abolition.

[@FelisImpurrator]

It would only be that if it reached a point of actively displacing prescriptivist notions of gender, though, no? It can't be gender abolition if prescriptive norms still exist. My issue with them isn't in fact with xenogenders themselves, but rather a broader issue with microdescriptors: A lot of people are drawn to them out of a more general sense of insecurity drawn from trauma - understandably, as most people come from socially repressive, conservative environments, which I would argue are by nature abusive. So it's not a blame thing. But the issue is that people thus have a tendency to essentialize and reify such hyper-granular descriptors, perhaps because they've internalized the idea that identity IS about essential categories (which is a common conservative mentality). So people get hyper-defensive at any perceived invalidation, and in some cases actually do try to create exclusionary identity groups. It's just like the phenomenon of people turning to nationalism in response to a (perceived or actual; white nationalists appeal to the exact same feelings as black nationalists, even though their purposes are evidently more harmful and less founded on actual oppression) threat to their security. You end up with those people who think not using neopronouns is materially equivalent to transphobic violence, in short. All the issues seemingly come about, though, not because of anything inherently wrong about xenogenders or neopronouns or whatever else, but because of instances where people treat them as a defense mechanism to address insecurity, rather than a positive affirmation of individual identity. A lot of that is a chicken and egg problem for the above reason - people react defensively to othering and essentialize further, perpetuating more othering and more reinforcement of identity as oppressively prescriptive, repeat. But that means we should both foster some level of acceptance for granular, individualized descriptors, and caution people against holding those descriptors to be reified expressions of an essential, inviolable self. We need to not internalize what is basically traumatic hypervigilance.

[@SarahRoseCO10]

I've never thought about race as similar to gender, even though I definitely think they're both social constructs. So this is really interesting and gave me a lot to think about

[@RunD.Ones1s]

I saw vaush talks to Kyle and got hyped thinking it was about Ukraine, this convo is old af

[@MrDick-kz8qc]

The title or thumbnail didn't give away that it wasn't about Ukraine?

[@theflaggeddragon9472]

You're right, they should absolutely have a Convo on Ukraine

[@mattrandazzo132]

I'd like to see more vaush and Kyle Collab. I started down the left KZbin sphere with Kyle, now I watch more vaush but still watch Kyle. I think they have good convos and can bounce of each other well. Hope they do it more

[@tru_spartan_117]

Which VOD was this from? Must have missed this one

[@rhynoklein7]

I’m sure I’m going to be called a dude bro for this but I like when Kyle and Vaush have conversations. Because of Kyle, I might not have stumbled across Vaush.

[@TheStraightGod]

Dude bro

[@MsPeep]

I'm the same way

[@Yoshimitsu4prez]

This was a great convo, and I remain impressed that Kyle didn’t outright lose a bunch of audience over it. It speaks well to what he does to me, his audience is not full Dore tier (yet). I still feel like he’s reasonable enough that he can be gently pushed away from that stuff.

[@Sugarman96]

Why would Kyle have lost audience? Because the way I see it, he's never openly talked shit about Vaush and he even had him on the podcast. I think the big difference is the kind of audience Kyle "cultivates" (it's kinda loose here, but I can't think of a better word to use). They clearly aren't the terminally online Twitter leftists that follow the likes of ThoughtSlime, so I don't think the Vaush association is damaging.

[@joe94c]

His audience is sort of split. I've been subbed to Kyle for probably almost a decade and from what I've seen he's pretty much a half way point between vaush and Dore. On top of the fact they were friends outside of KZbin. But Kyle is 100 sincere compared to dore

[@Mae_Dastardly]

Most of kyle's fanbase are moderate libs that don't care about vaush, He's the first step on the far left pipeline so the people who watch him aren't quite in enough to scream at eachother over weather or not vaush bad. He'd be more likely to lose subs over validating otherkin than talking to vaush lmao

[@moose2959]

We need more Vaush and Kyle

[@cameronwooten6781]

Am I bugging or did this already get uploaded.

[@ever-openingflower8737]

Vaush made a very good point about discrimination. He compared otherkin to astrology and zodiac signs and that reminded me of an episode of The Orville where people are literally persecuted because of their astrological sign. I totally support the general idea "unless you're hurting anybody, I don't care". And simultaneously, we should all stand united against hatred and we should stand with the oppressed, not with the oppressors. Of course that episode of The Orville was probably also an allegory to something else. But it's fitting to what was said here. There are proposals of bathroom bills, so that means that politicians are actively trying to discriminate against transgender people. In those cases of otherkin people where they can simply hide their otherkinness from their oppressors, they have an easier time to escape discrimination. As a leftist political line, we should stand in support of both, while also realizing there is a difference. In special cases of otherkin people who cannot escape oppression, we should show support too. I personally do not care about astrology at all. Since it is popular though, people are not discriminated against for their astrological sign. If they WERE, I would be against that too.

[@peoples2296]

I will leave the left if I can't make fun of furries

[@DevinMacGregor]

I think some asian cultures look at astrology such as in the work place. I believe china. If you are the wrong sign you might not get hired.

[@shrimpchris6580]

The problem with astrological signs and descrimination over then is that it comes entirely from people who believe in that shit like a religion. It's not as ubiquitous or harmful but that shit is like really weird.

[@DevinMacGregor]

@@shrimpchris6580 I have been denied relationships because I apparently was an incompatible sign. I am a Cancer. She is an Aquarius.

[@cg1906]

its... its culture. You can be culturally from a low income black community or culturally from an indigenous community or culturally from an urban white community, why the fuck does that have to mean you're of a different race? A black person doesn't stop being black, or stop experiencing being racialized if they grow up in an all white community. This conversation was fucking wild to listen to

[@thomaswest4033]

I know. The absolute state of the "left." lmao, what is this. Race along with gender is not something I believe we decide for ourselves. But exists within the gaze of the society we're in. Unfortunately.

[@slime8177]

Best Vaush convo

[@mathieuleader8601]

I might be the only one who remembers the claymation sitcom called PJ'S which aired on FOX in the states but the handyman working in the flats Thurgood Stubbs had a Korean brother-in-law called Jimmy who was married to his wife's sister and often adopted the cultural mannerisms of the black community I guess that character is a transracial character

[@pnwbriar301]

The only example I can think of regarding transracialism being portrayed in media was Trailer Park Boys with JRock who was a white guy but truly believes he's black and the rest of the trailer community just goes with it. It was a consistent storyline and even had an episode where someone not from the park called him out on not being black but the community pushed back that they saw JRock as black. I would be curious to see what Vaush and Kyle think of this portrayal.

[@traceyrice4978]

That episode was great. Same one where J to the R-O-C got caught choking his chicken and bootlegging Detroit Velvet Smooth's songs. Irra-irra. Nahmsayin?

[@infinite-sadness]

@@traceyrice4978 could’ve been worse, at least he wasn’t also checking his own oil

[@peoples2296]

Clayton Bigsby

[@pnwbriar301]

@@peoples2296 wow, there is more transracialism in media then I realized, still a small amount but still more than I thought. would uncle ruckus from the boondocks also kinda count? There was the episode where he has a vision of white heaven and is told that if he does "the lords work" then he can transition to a white man? I also seem to recall an episode where his mom had been lying to him and told him he was born white then turned black so he identified as a white person rather than black.

[@peoples2296]

@@pnwbriar301 Ali G is another example. But in the past it was played up comedically while nowadays some people are taking it seriously (I dont).

[@hobosorcerer]

5:30 I'm pretty sure we do have different words to describe this distinction: race and culture. You're severally overcomplicating this.

[@Undeadsweater]

@Sky Gardener But people absolutely do build communities around cultures. Culture is your values, your religion, your manners and mannerisms, your food, the media you consume, etc. It changes the way humans interact with each other a ton- way more than race does, unless you’re racist. Race is just your genetics and how you look. So of course a cop describes a suspect based on how they look, lol. They would also describe the clothes the person is wearing and their height. But in most other facets of life, culture matters most. Race only matters because society chooses to be racist, and if we can diminish the importance of race that would be a good thing.

[@JMBraz1]

Live and Let Live.

[@mlsmith365]

Vaush legitimately shocked when Kyle said he listens to him often.

[@JustAGuyWhoLikesStuff.]

7:38 We say what?! Is this how people in the US use race in discussions? I have never in my life heard that. As a whole I feel like coming from Finland, though I myself am a Person of colour in an International school that the whole transracialism conversation was like trying to explain transgenderism to someone who only knows of biological sex. To me race just doesn't have any culture attached to it no matter if you're black or white. If anything I'd say that in my life the clothes on someone's body say more about them then their skin colour. But I guess in other places the stereotypes and cultural expectations do exist.

[@Isa-fn6rs]

О yeah they use it

[@lhoman8426]

Race = biology Ethnicity = cultural So maybe ‘transethnic’ would be more appropriate.

[@Liliquan]

Race is not biology. It may make reference to biological features but it’s still an unsupported set of terminology that biology as a profession rejects. Not to mention that race more often than not makes reference to non biological traits or pseudo biological traits like certain genes that don’t exist.

[@lolcowtv2146]

race is a sociological concept, ethnicity too but it's slightly more used in biology.. the most commonly used term in biology is population

[@lhoman8426]

@Shinshocks there are many Asians in Europe who identify with their country (I.e. German, British, french) and you would at least call them an Asian-German. I get where you’re coming from but I think the opposite is true. For instance, you would call a black American, an American. Their race is black, but their ethnicity is American.

[@TheEccentricPoet]

Aww, that was so sweet! ❤️✌️

[@AhkenAOK]

In Melutish “Race” has been Translated two different ways such as the colour of your skin being Rümin and the Class Features you are in as Kurske. This i think is Quite a Good resolve for this Situation:

[@felicityc]

Language will always grow into where it needs to be. Really fast usually, as long as there are people adopting some terms, even halfway. Worth noting most of the language pressure that happens is from people naturally deciding to shift tone and stuff slightly to the side. Like, we definitely adopted 'like' like this, and LITERALLY also literally either, and those are things no one likes/thinks about. There really just has to be someone to establish things. Good explanation on the otherkin thing, that's how I understood it from who I knew, but also it was some fetish tuff too which is fine. I say I used to say I am a fox a lot. I AM A FOX.

[@justbrowsing9697]

There's a lot of landmines and shit when talking on these issues. In the end all should be seen as equals, with the Individuals liberties fully protected. If otherkin or xenogender is "real" doesn't matter, we can argue about the language of how identity is expressed along with it's relation to oppressive forces. Go on for days about cultural and biological differences with what importance, weight and/or value we give it all. Let's just treat people like people. Tolerate whatever labels or terms they use in describing their experiences as long as it's not harmful to others, be productive instead of shitting all over people. Basic shit not enough of us understand

[@christressler3857]

Is this an old clip?

[@Nouvellecosse]

Kyle didn't know about that dog until it finally bit him

[@JourneyLT]

I respect Kyle. He tends to fall in with the wrong people sometimes, but I really get the impression he's genuine.

[@hihkable]

Kyle is saying things so progressive it's becoming regressive. "If Eminem said, 'I'm black,' and we'd be like, 'okay." Wtf does that mean? It sounds like he's saying being black has to do with entirely with our social stereotypes of black people.

[@johnnytsunami3695]

Isn’t that what trans people do? Pick up traits what society believe to be feminine and characteristic even though all women don’t have those?

[@theother5594]

Is this a re-upload or am I just insane? I swear I have seen this before but none of the other comments seem to confirm.. halp D:

[@SkyyShark]

holy shit, i love to see this side of Kyle :3

[@Spood6]

Look, all I'm saying is, I completely respect anyone who advocates for xenogenders, but only if they advocate for all of them, and yes, that includes Amongus-gender, and no, this isn't a 2016 attack helicopter joke, I'm dead serious.

[@markuswelander8551]

What about imposter gender?

[@PickleSir]

@@markuswelander8551 that's a little susgendered, ngl

[@melanienebula2550]

Based Perhaps even Basedgender, if you identify as such

[@pentagrammusic3385]

MAPs should be the ones to adopt the term amongus-gender, cause they’re so SUS.

[@ricochetsixtyten]

Vaushgendered

[@kardoxfabricanus7590]

I think in the future when you're able to turn yourself into big booba dragon through stem cell research and genetic engineering etc. Then it will be similar to how trans people are today with the ability to transition into whatever form you'd like being an important right.

[@greywolf7577]

It is probably easier to change your race through plastic surgery (Michael Jackson, for example) than it is to change your sex. You can create a penis or a vagina, but you can't make them work the same way a penis or vagina would work if you were born with one. If you were born female, you can't get anyone else pregnant even if you are given a penis. If you were born male, you can't get pregnant even if you are given a vagina.

[@kardoxfabricanus7590]

@@greywolf7577 i was talking about the future where you have the technology to change almost literally everything about your genetic structure etc. Also Michael Jackson didn't change his race he had vitiligo and he may have actually used makeup instead but I'd have to double check.

[@peoples2296]

@@kardoxfabricanus7590 I've seen people with vitiligo and I've never seen it happen where it just gets uniformly lighter over time. I think he bleached his skin like what is happening with Sammy Sosa.

[@kardoxfabricanus7590]

@@peoples2296 as i mentioned would have to double check, a lot of conspiratorial lunacy was peddled by tabloids to sell headlines. If you want an example i can link a really good video on the subject matter.

[@Undeadsweater]

@@peoples2296 He had vitiligo but covered it with makeup when he still had mostly dark skin. Once it spread and there was too much to cover, he got his skin lightened to match the vitiligo instead of making the vitiligo patches darker.

[@LoadPuller]

I watch Vaush and Kyle regularly.

[@lionheartedhaze]

The language you are looking for Vaush is “lived experience.” You both distinguished the biological from the cultural throughout this conversation, which is fine, but the amalgamation of both (and more nuanced elements as well) make up lived experience. That’s why if Eminem transitioned from white to Black would be ridiculous-he’s never had the lived experience of a Black person no matter how close to the Black community he’s been (the exclusion, discrimination, interior/embodied experience). The rhetoric of lived experience is the language you’re looking for-it’s cultural and embodied (and sometimes more).

[@justbrowsing9697]

Tolerate and put up with people's shit like they do to yours. If you respect people with religious and other spiritual ties you can give otherkin, xenogender, etc that same courtesy. No point in shitting on harmless ways of perceiving one's identity.

[@infinite-sadness]

My problem is i can’t help but cringe when they’re doing that uwu stuff and trying to be cutesy. It bothers me when non furry/otherkin people do it as well but the added factor of doing it because you’re a wolf just puts it over the edge for me. It’s really the only block i have with the issue.

[@justbrowsing9697]

@@infinite-sadness I get that, just the way so people act or carry themselves can make a lot of others want to disassociate them. It's hard to even pinpoint that feeling for me, like a weird cocktail of disgust; cringe, uncomfort and an off-putting sense. Maybe it's because I rarely feel it, but it seems strangely alien yet familiar.

[@carnivorous_vegan]

6:05 we do. Its called ethnicity. Ethnicity is to rsce what sex is to gender. Its not necessary, its sufficient

[@frocco7125]

This is discourse right here

[@christopherchilton-smith6482]

9:03 I think it has *always* been around even though the idea of race hasn't. All it takes is being raised around people that otherwise look nothing like you but live the only way you've ever known, this creates the underlying tension that we now have language for. Not to mention, insofar as groups of people have ever been seen as distinct from one another there have always been those whom are products of at least 2 such distinct groups. No matter how you slice that there is some trans "racial" (or however you want to label that distinction) element to it.

[@neonsamurai4604]

You are referring to culturally ethnicities not race. Race is genotype+phenotype Ethnicity is race+ culture +nationality Imo transracial is bullshit but I can understand it from a cultural standpoint.

[@TheStraightGod]

Can you explain the relation between ethnicity and nationality?

[@taisstea7306]

you cant be transracial because you cant transition into being another race without simply being whatever your caricature of that race is. for example, Rachel Dolezol (dont care if its spelled wrong) darkened her skin and changed her hair texture, but there are black people lighter and darker than her with curlier and straighter hair, she just chose to be what she personally thought looked like a black woman and there are still white women who look like her (fake tan + a wig for example idk look at a kardashian or something). does Rachel darkening her skin make her more "black" than black women who are lighter than her? does her changing her (perceived) hair texture to be curlier mean black women with looser curls are less black than her? no of course not, and by this logic her doing those things to herself does not make her any more black or less white. she can LOOK more like a black woman to some people but that does not make her black. like you cant just pick traits to mimick and declare yourself a race because people of a race can be very different from what you chose to mimick. its literally cherry picking traits that you think belong to one race of people. her being in the NAACP for example does not make her more "black" because you dont have to be in the NAACP or a civil rights advocate at all to be black, that is just something she chose to do and she easily could have been a civil rights advocate as a white woman. When you allow people to be "transracial" youre validating whatever their stereotype of the race their transitioning to is. There is no such thing as "acting black", or "acting white" without being racist because a black person can act in any way a white person can and the implications on all black people when looking at what "acting black" is considered is very clearly demeaning. anyone who feels like they are more black than white simply thinks they act more in accordance to their view of a default black person than they do to a default white person but their default will never encompass the entirety of the black experience so they're, again, just comparing themselves to a caricature. I think its better for the world if we move further from sterotypes of specific races and towards people just acting like themselves, if yourself is a white woman who enjoys black culture, be a white woman that enjoys black culture. TL;DR: i disagree with transracialism because i feel like it encourages racism/racist views of minorities.

[@brutuslugo3969]

You realize the same can be said for trans people

[@greywolf7577]

By your definition, aren't transpeople pushing sexist views of gender ("A man dresses certain ways" "A woman participates in certain activities")

[@Darkpara1]

It's the all or nothing approaching if you want to allow someone to change their identity, and what they present as. People want to arbitrarily draw a line on grounds, for the same reason people get so bent out of shape about transgenderism. They want to protect what they identify with.

[@TheCherryTrader]

Isn't this an old video?

[@cameronmachado1774]

Kyle: "Vaush good"

[@Gum_Cuzzler]

The difference is you can be trans and live your life more or less exactly like a biological woman. There’s a social construct in place you can conform to. It’s impossible to live life as a wolf in a human society. From what I’ve seen wolves don’t tend to live in their mom’s attic on a steady supply of frozen tendies and spend all day watching furry porn. If you really feel like a wolf go live naked in the woods and try to chase down deer for food, then I’ll respect your identity.

[@qarsiseer]

As a trans woman I’ll answer Kyle’s question. Yes, it’s biological. It’s a deep, psychic trauma that’s existed my whole life. It is based heavily on my physical features. Socially being accepted as a woman helps and is important but that doesn’t solve the deep distress I have about my sex. The existing research points to it being an error of sexual development, my brain expects me to be female and is most comfortable with the behaviors associated with females (i.e. woman’s behavior). It’s also culturally irrelevant, I’m not big on sports but in an alternate society where girls doing sports is the norm I would want more to try it out even if I don’t end up liking it. Meanwhile, there’s no inherent neurology to race, as we’ve seen by black kids growing up in white families. That’s the difference between gender and race / otherkin: everyone is capable of developing into a male or female in the womb and errors in that process can result in a spectrum of issues. But you’re always going to look like your parents when you’re born, there’s nothing inherently distressing about that (though it may be culturally distressing).

[@missingeye2947]

not every trans person has this medical explanation though. what about non binary people? or trans people who dont fit the traditional diagnoses for dysphoria? or intersex people that feel no dysphoria, and therefor nullify this theory of "female/male brain"? i think our next step forward is to find the validity of transness in the psychological experience of individuals, not medical hurdles. (also, you dont always look like your parents. thats something mixed kids have had to learn since the dawn of time. people love picking on you for the parts that dont fit in the mold.)

[@MackenziiRivers]

But otherkin folk do experience species dysphoria and something known as phantom limb syndrome (i. E feel like they're missing a tail or a set of wings andso on). With race you can't really have something like that

[@fluidthought42]

@@MackenziiRivers Wait where would they be missing the feeling of wings though? Wings would be, in the vast majority of animals capable of flight, composed of fingers and arms with ligaments and skin, stretched and formed around in a way different from humans. Like if they feel their arms should be wings sure, but so should your hands and fingers. But even then, you're not likely missing your arms hands and fingers so... where's the phantom part then? It's not like feathers are a necessity for flight either, bats lack feathers but can still fly, obviously.

[@greywolf7577]

Perhaps transgenderism is an example of what happens when we have gender roles in society. If society was completely without gender roles, with men and women equally likely to do any activity, a "man born with a female brain" wouldn't feel out of place, since there would be plenty of men that enjoyed what we today would call feminine activities. It's like how tomboys were common in the old days. This was a woman who did male things without giving up her female identity. That seems like the old way "men born in women's bodies" had to be comfortable in their life.

[@fluidthought42]

@@greywolf7577 There's plenty of gender role nonconforming trans people though. Not to mention, there's plenty of cisgender people who don't conform strictly to gender roles either. It seems to me that the emotional need to conform to some socially agreed upon standards is an independent and seperate issue to transgender identities, and to gender identity in general.

[@communitycollegeofharvard6198]

Are we debating race, or ethnicity?

[@hypercortical7772]

before I watch this further. My take: The reason the idea of being transracial is seen as problematic in a way that being transgender isn't is because transgender is a transness about a socially constructed conceptual field that pretty much everyone in society accepts. Like the idea that "Man" and "Woman" mean something unrelated to just biological sex, is accepted. Meanwhile with race, I think most people, left wing or right wing, have a massive issue with the idea that "Black person" or "White Person" should mean something beyond just the phenotypic traits that we've socially constructed as distinct. You can point to many of the stereotypical traits that make up the socially constructed ideal of womanhood, and ppl are ok with this and won't see that as neccessarily harmful or sexist (caring, skirts, sensitivity etc). meanwhile, pretty much all of the socially constructed ideas for what (other than phenotype) distinguishes "black people" from "white people" are racist... like what does "black person" mean? that I like rap music? fired chicken? that I don't speak well? So, I say all of this, but that doesn't mean I think the people like rachel dolezal, or this quasi-native lady are basing their identity on racist stereotypes. Probably what's going on with them has something to do with their lived experience, and the communities they've grown up with. For example, rachel dolezal was percieved as a light skinned black person for so much of her life and was even a victim of anti-black racism because of it. I can see how someone in that position would start to construct their self-identity in relation to blackness.

[@JM-mh1pp]

mean something unrelated to just biological sex, is accepted. No, no it is not. It is not something obvious, tons of people reject that .

[@2FadeMusic]

Its not accepted by a fuckton of people though lol I feel like the amount of people who accept race as a construct is only marginally less than gender. Why else would there be so many transphobes

[@greywolf7577]

I think if society didn't have gender roles, then we wouldn't have transpeople either. If a man and woman are equally likely to do something, there would be no point in changing your gender. So transgenderism seems to be a form of gender essentialism where being a man or a woman means dressing a certain way or doing certain activities.

[@burkles4456]

Eh, otherkin are just having fun. They are living in their reality. They aren’t hurting anyone but they are, undoubtedly, cringe. I’m not going to address an otherkin as deer or wolf. XD

[@MackenziiRivers]

Then you dont know about otherkin then. Its not some for fun stuff like an rp, they're animals of some kind (either the spirit or soul or a reincarnation of an animal/mythological being).

[@lolcowtv2146]

@@MackenziiRivers or maybe it's just about what we relate to and when we say things like reincarnation or talk about spirit and soul, it's just trying to explain simple things however we can cuz it's not like we're educated on the subject on how it works and why we feel the way we do..

[@lolcowtv2146]

in what context exactly would you even be faced with the choice of adressing someone as a deer or a wolf? Like seriously "Ow hi dude.. ow sorry, my bad, wolf dude! i didn't want to misspecies you" No it's fine, dude will probably work just fine..

[@UTO7]

@@MackenziiRivers I think when you start talking about things like reincarnation and souls, it becomes more of a religious belief then an identity...

[@greywolf7577]

It's similar to how I always refer to transpeople using the word "they". That way, I can be respectful to them without suggesting that I actually think they changed sex or gender.

[@ZerinOrange]

Kyle "Driver" Kulinski is the one who dragged me into the left and Vaush made sure I stay there. I love it whenever my two dads do collabs.

[@missingeye2947]

careful with the "d" word, you know how things ended with vaush and -the last guy-

[@scottgrohs5940]

Get Aron Ra in here somehow and you’ll have the Three Kings of the online left.

[@crro7942]

Give the editors some material!

[@jamespuso1627]

I thought this was a new interview... and I was about to say damn Vaush isn't there anything a bit more substantial to be having a conversation with Kyle on...like Russia?

[@ezzyelder3385]

Here's my hot take. I'm a gender abolitionist so I think xenogenders (at least when it comes to labels) are cringe. In my ideal world, everyone expresses themselves exactly how they want but we just do away with gendered language altogether.

[@ryno4ever433]

Based

[@laozedong8837]

Nobody cares what you think

[@dckhead8429]

@@laozedong8837 bro this is a comment section

[@ezzyelder3385]

@@laozedong8837 do us all a favor and buy a rope and a step ladder

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

@Ezzy Ender Careful there, no one likes that kind of talk.

[@rainsy8567]

I wonder how person's with trauma, like dissociative Identity disorder, in which one or more of their dissociative states become cats or dogs or dragons or ghosts etc, would stand on this issue. Because in this case i can 100% see the utility in identifying with a non-human entity or even a fictional entity. I agree with someone else in the comments saying i dont think that is has anything to do with gender. It feels like a distinct identifying quality separate from gender.

[@fluidthought42]

From the very, very few cases resembling legit DID that I've heard of, the "alternate personality" usually is just a regression to a younger age, usually the age at which trauma was inflicted on them. It's essentially a disassociation episode, which are already known to cause personality shifts, that is more specific and in depth in specific ways.

[@alephnulI]

@@fluidthought42 That's the least common type of it.

[@alephnulI]

@Priscilla Usually it's about not feeling human or not feeling connected to humans, and with ghosts it tends to happen as a reaction to near death experiences. So there's an element of trying to distance themselves from other people and connecting with cats or dogs.

[@fluidthought42]

@@alephnulI Saying which type is "common" is I think a bit beyond either of us when even the idea of DID existing as a seperate condition from Disassociative Disorders in general is in question. Not to mention, there's plenty of people who try to fake having it (possibly as a symptom of Munchenhausen Syndrome) to blur the line on the available data pool.

[@fluidthought42]

@@alephnulI Wait wait, that description of the "ghost identity" more resembles an example of Cotard's delusion rather than an actual case of self identity. That in of itself is also caused by several neurological disorders or damage. Unless of course there's a meaningful distinction between "I identify as being dead" and "I believe myself to be dead" that I'm not getting.

[@jimmyrecard5056]

Can someone please explain to me what 'based' means, I see Vaush say it a lot but not quite sure of what it means.

[@Birdup1776]

"based" is basically meme speak for "I find this agreeable." Typically, something that is "based" also has some edge of controversy, etc. Examples: "People who believe Israel is an illegitimate state are based." "Putting pineapples on pizza is based." etc. etc.

[@jimmyrecard5056]

@@Birdup1776 Great thanks although I can’t agree with the pineapple on pizza analogy

[@dylanb265]

There’s a decent argument that gender is a psychological condition, which is not socially constructed and cannot be chosen by individuals or society any more than individuals or society can socially change a high or low dopamine sensitivity. So trans people don’t choose to be trans. Non-binary people don’t choose to be non-binary. I could not choose to be another gender than the one I psychologically am. But race is different in that race is assigned from outside by societal treatment. People talk about finding out that they’re black or find out that they’re white via some moment when people treated them as such. This gives us information on what these things are. You know you’re the gender you are internally, you know you’re the race you are externally. So unless people start treating you as another race, then for all practical purposes your race has not changed.

[@KufLMAO]

I love how Vaush’s fan base loves to constantly shit on kyle (and I know Vaush himself did for a time) when his takes consistently flank most of theirs. He’s absolutely right. If we accept that race is a sociological phenomenon like gender, and not a real, inherent trait like sex, then it follows that changing races is perfectly valid and should be respected. It baffles me how people are so blind to this. So glad Vaush finally ended his bad-faith arc with Kyle, maybe now we’ll actually get something productive done.

[@KNylen]

why didnt he used to like kyle? i cant keep up w this shit

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

Did you know that Vaush is a gender abolitionist and ethnicity already exists to talk about the cultural aspect of race?

[@battlebear7214]

@@KNylen I think vaush used to pump Kyle in with Jimmy Dore and the other gray zone types.

[@Cryosxify]

@@KNylen Kyle tried playing both sides during tyt vs jimmy dore which looked bad especially after Jimmy shanked him for not completely defending him. also maybe ties to breaking points

[@TheSpeep]

I feel like transracialism might be kind of a poor way to word this actually, and that a lot of peoples issues with the idea may stem from that, since race, by and large, is still very strongly defined by skin color. I think this conversation might benefit from a distinction like the one we make for sex and gender, such as perhaps ethnicity and culture, rather than just race. And I can perfectly imagine someone identifying more with a specific culture that they werent necessarily born or brought up in. That seems a lot more defensible than saying you feel like youre actually, say, black for example. Especially since the latter would also seem to imply that there actually is a real and inherent distinction between people of different races.

[@tythonianmachinima]

Kyle keeps saying "Transgenderism" which, to me, would be like saying Blackism, or Hispanicism. Same when people say transgendered, it would be like saying blacked, or gayed. It's not an ideology, it's just a state of being!

[@Xsuh]

Yeah, but the sentence "transgender is more common than you think" sounds nonsensical, because "transgender" is an adjective and not a noun. "Transgenderism" serves as an easy way to refer to the concept of being transgender, and as a trans person I don't really see the harm in it.

[@tythonianmachinima]

"gender dysphoria, and it's treatment, is more common than you think" I'm trans, I hate getting the -ed at the end. Makes me feel like it's a disability lol.

[@johnnytsunami3695]

Please stop comparing being trans WHICH IS A CHOICE to being black. I don't take pill to be black, I don't correct people to address me by my correct race.

[@tythonianmachinima]

@@johnnytsunami3695 you're also not an ideology which was my point

[@newdawngamingchannel]

I think its just that race and culture used to be almost completely intertwined as ones culture was also race as people didn’t move around as much

[@SupermanChampionOfTheOppressed]

Xenogears is one of the best ps1 games

[@Black_Caucus]

Kyle is a well meaning, but naïve figure. He introduced me to the online left, and I will forever be grateful. I hope he denounces Jimmy Dore and Glenn Greenwald, who have turned into Republican sympathizers.

[@TheLoneClaw]

As someone who's both trans and otherkin, I feel like I ought to offer my thoughts on this. Firstly, "otherkin" is an incredibly broad umbrella term-it covers people who identify with the characteristics that we associate with a particular creature, it covers people who symbolically identify with a certain creature, it covers people who believe they were another creature in a past life, it covers people who experience dysphoria and would transition to a particular creature in a heartbeat if it was possible, the list of people it covers goes on and on. As for me, I fall in the camp of people who experience it as dysphoria, so I will do my best to explain what that's like. All my life, whenever I've seen my reflection, a photo of me, or just focused on my body, I've never recognized it as being me. Intellectually, I know it's me, but at the same time it's completely foreign to me. If you have a VR headset, there's actually a way for you to simulate this feeling: simply load up a game where your character model looks completely different from your IRL body, then examine your virtual body and (if possible) look at it in an in-game mirror. Now imagine if you couldn't remove the headset, imagine if you were permanently stuck with this virtual body that looks nothing like it "should." That's what it's like. While being trans is viewed by most as being more "real" than being otherkin, I think it's important to take into account that trans people have decades worth of research that validate their (or ours, rather, given that I'm also trans) identities. Otherkin do not have any research supporting their identities, but that's simply because 1)no one outside of the social sciences have actually done a formal study on them, and 2)the underlying causes of their identities might be too complex to study with current technology (the brain is a highly complex organ, after all). I do have a hypothesis on why otherkin like me feel the way we do. Everyone has a sense called proprioception, which provides the brain with information on the movement and relative positions of the parts of the body. Suppose we have another sense that provides the brain with a general idea of how the body should be configured, sort of like an abstract blueprint-something like this would explain some phenomena like phantom limbs. Now suppose that something warped this blueprint; perhaps a tiny fraction of people are born with such a warped blueprint. This sense would make them aware, from a very young age, that the configuration of their body was wrong somehow. As the human figure does not fit this blueprint, they start looking for creatures with body configurations that do fit their blueprint, and if multiple creatures seemingly fit, they'll gravitate towards those that are significant to them either culturally or personally. Again, this is pure speculation on my part.

[@MarvinElsen]

I believe there is also a certain aspect of biological.. possibility(?) to be what you identify as? Feeling like you were born a different sex is different from feeling that you were born the wrong race (aside from the social aspect of course) in that it wouldve taken a lot less to turn out a different gender then having been born e.g. with more melanin. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can't be born with a massively tanner complexion (and the other way around unless we're talking albino?) from your parents, right?

[@Saktoth]

There are a pair of twins, one white appearing with ginger hair, one black appearing with curly hair. And their experience is very, very different. A part of race is being raised in a culture, like Eminem. Another part is being racialized by others, because you have certain genetic signifiers. It really is a lot like gender.

[@rainthedraconic402]

The first five words was all I needed to click on this video

[@zakaryrichmond396]

I feel like using the term transracialism is not one that works for me but if he was say transculturalism I could see that because it's embracing the culture of another group you're not changing your race and claiming that you are is possibly offensive

[@zacg_]

The issue is that every one of the arguments that is used to demarcate race as a stationary biological thing that cannot be changed is equally applicable to gender. To me that doesn't intuitively feel like it's right but I can't really think of a valid counter argument. If gender is a matter of self perception alone then there really isn't an argument against transracialism. If it's a product of society and outside perception then it's really a question of what the society will tolerate and accept. If it's a matter of biology then that's actually a greater argument against the transgender community because the biological difference between males and females are generally more clear than are the differences between people across races. And being biracial is biologically far more common (if we accept race as a biological concept in any sense) than not fitting within a sex binary. That is unless you take the perspective that being transgender is a question of neurological phenotype and that being transgender fits some type of "brain vs body" discordance. Most people in the trans community don't really like the idea of justifying trans identity on purely biological grounds which makes sense because that is a hard argument to make in any kind of direct manner. Usually trans identity is explained on social and psychological grounds. I think that makes more intuitive sense and it's not hard to understand. The difficult thing comes from trying to exclude transracialism on social or psychological grounds without basically making either a TERF type argument or just saying that it doesn't sound right. And honestly, I don't know that I have an answer for that. I don't feel like transracialism is valid but I can only say that it doesn't sound right to me. I can't really form a solid argument against it.

[@zakaryrichmond396]

@@zacg_ the way I'm viewing it is that there is race and there is culture the same way that their sex and their is gender because the social aspects that surround race is just culture to my knowledge it's like explaining the difference between transsexual and transgender.

[@zacg_]

@@zakaryrichmond396 I understand what you are saying but the term for that on cultural lines is ethnicity, not race. To be a fan of certain cultural practices is obviously valid. And people can even join an ethnic group because there is nothing biological about ethnicity. However, there isn't anything biological about race either. Race is a social construct. It does not have biological boundary lines. There are certainly certain phenotypic characteristics that people use as cues for race (such as skin color, facial features, body build and hair texture) but these phenotypes have more variation within traditional racial groups than they have across traditional racial groups. The biological analogue of sex wouldn't be race. It would be more akin to skin color or something like that. But even that is overly simplistic because there are differently ways in which the vast majority of the time sex phenotypes fit neatly into a binary system where things like skin color aren't binary, they are a matter of degree. There is no biological equivalent to sex when it comes to race and culture. I can understand why it's tempting to use the word race in that manner but it isn't analogous. But because there isn't a genetic or biological definition or even basis for race, biology can't be the rational for excluding transracialism. The concept of transracialism at this time is a very minor one. But it's probably not a good idea to exclude it with arguments that would invalidate transgender identities. People who want to be considered valid in a transracial identity aren't asking to be viewed as valid in their appreciation of other people's culture. They are asking for validity in the idea that they have left their socially constructed race and are in fact a member of another socially constructed race. I don't really relate to or understand that. But I don't want to invalidate that by pretending race is biological or making an argument that would invalidate transgender people.

[@zakaryrichmond396]

@@zacg_ I wouldn't say I was unaware of race being not exactly biological I just sort of am stupid I literally heard about this recently and just fucking forgot. The main argument that I was making is that when you see transracialism most times it is just the adoption of the culture associated with that race as it is still a growing term my issue wasn't with its existence itself but the term being used I think I'll just try to stay a little bit away from the debate until it fills itself out a little bit more

[@zacg_]

@@zakaryrichmond396 no worries. I don't think your comment was bad or that it is something that should be ridiculed or anything like that. Please don't feel like my comment responses have been an attack or that they were malicious. Honestly, I don't really know what to say about transracialism. It intuitively does not feel valid to me and I feel like it is a problem for oppressed racial groups. I'm just trying to avoid my gut instinct to dismiss this concept because I see that many of the arguments against transracialism are themselves perfectly analogous to transphobic arguments and I don't yet see any reason to accept one concept and reject the other.