Do White People Need to Stay In Their Lane? Problems in IRL Advocacy

Vaush talks to Nickolas (he/him) about the idea of if white leftists "need to stay their lane" when it comes to race issues.
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Timestamps!
0:00 Intro (he/him)
3:35 Future Canvasing & Organization Work
6:25 “Well Meaning Liberals”
10:00 NoName & Organizing in Dallas
13:04 How Do We Fix This?
15:24 White People & Racism
19:24 “It’s Not Essentialist”
23:40 Miscegenation
29:32 Vaush’s Point
32:00 White People, Internalized Racism, Colorism
36:00 Final Thoughts
#VaushPit #VaushDebates

[@testoftempest]

Timestamps! 0:00 Intro (he/him) 3:35 Future Canvasing & Organization Work 6:25 “Well Meaning Liberals” 10:00 NoName & Organizing in Dallas 13:04 How Do We Fix This? 15:24 White People & Racism 19:24 “It’s Not Essentialist” 23:40 Miscegenation 29:32 Vaushe’s Point 32:00 White People, Internalized Racism, Colorism 36:00 Final Thoughts

[@crashcoptr]

I'm glad you included pronouns in the timestamp. It seems like a worthy place to include those.

[@jmoreland4]

@Ethan Joule reading speed

[@ashtonsgotsauce9981]

@Ethan Joule some people go straight to comments. chapters are relatively new.

[@chrissalsop6673]

it's very demoralizing when you actively want to help people out and they go "actually, the best thing you can do is just feel guilty and do nothing productive whatsoever"

[@xdpking9271]

The problem IS white liberals.

[@Charles-pf7zy]

@@xdpking9271 you needed white liberals to support desegregation. Stop pushing away the majority of the population. You just want whites to lay at your feet kissing it but it ain’t gonna happen. You’ll go nowhere with that mentality and make up for the loss of support with riots. Grow up and learn how to work with people. You can’t just demand all reparations you want and “white man bad” and somehow you’re gonna get it? Some of you even call for 100k cash in reparations but when white liberals say they “would rather pay for better schools plus the working class is doing bad financially and can’t take the hit” you just lash out and call them racist and stay out of the way. Uh uh. That’s not how it works. You can’t guilt trip and wokescold everyone into getting free stuff. That’s how you get pushback. The problem is you. Stop blaming others when things don’t go your way.

[@ziontea7045]

@@xdpking9271 as a black person, comments like this DO NOT help our cause.

[@herakles6185]

@@Charles-pf7zy If self hating white people or black advocates think white people are ever going to "bow down'" to them, its not going to happen xD Colourblind world is only world that is going to exist, because people are never going to self racist itself which this weird thing would require.

[@connorbrady5689]

@@xdpking9271 If you think the problem is white liberals, uh… I don’t even know man. That’s sad.

[@catdogfan732]

Yeah I hate the “stick to your kind” argument. So essentialist, alienating and (imo) pretty hostile

[@wa-bu3ke]

Cause you're a White ;D

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Also it gets mixed people killed when they're not welcome in any community.

[@kademorrill7334]

@@wa-bu3ke Not sure if you'd enjoy being told to stick to your kind when trying to engage in a discussion either

[@raak4070]

@@wa-bu3ke thanks for making it clear, you were making stupid arguments before but this is all you had to say.

[@wa-bu3ke]

@@raak4070 My argument was smart and accurate. Seethe

[@themanwithoutaplan9389]

Beyond the fact that excluding anyone from a discussion on the merits of their race is a super reductionist idea. If you start telling white leftists to stay out of race issues your going to breed a lot of unnecessary animosity, animosity that right wingers, Nazi’s, and anyone who is racist can exploit to turn people away from honest racial discussion. Exclusion and discrimination does not foster understanding or acceptance, it breeds nasty hatred that can be exploited.

[@TheBlarggle]

Or people who just will fully withdraw from any and all political engagement. Sometimes helping people isn't worth it if you're still going to be seen as "the villain."

[@HP-sq2fp]

@@TheBlarggle exactly. The counter to that is always “well you should care regardless if people are mean to you or not because it’s the right thing” and while that may be theoretically true, it’s not realistic because it discounts the human aspect. Individual white people (who are also humans) are not going to see things in a broader theoretical way, they’re going to see “when I’m involved in these spaces, people are mean to me and I don’t want to deal with that so I’m just gonna remove myself”

[@benjaminbyrd5568]

if these "leftists" have such low self-awareness that they can be drawn to the right by virtue of their "animosity" towards poc, I wouldn't call them leftists in the first place

[@hieroglyphics1758]

@@benjaminbyrd5568 it's not about leftists being drawn toward the right, it's about people who dont think about politics being drawn toward the right. Or Or people who call themselves libertarians who wouldn't vote to begin with that are now voting republican. Or very moderate libs.

[@GeoNeilUK]

@@benjaminbyrd5568 "if these "leftists" have such low self-awareness that they can be drawn to the right by virtue of their "animosity" towards poc, I wouldn't call them leftists in the first place" if these "leftists" have such low self-awareness that they can ignore the concerns of people who have different immutable qualities to them (such as race) then I wouldn't call them leftists in the first place.

[@CrowsofAcheron]

I think you two were talking past each other. Saying "Don't be paternalistic" is not the same as "Stay in your lane." There's a spectrum between the two extremes where the answer lies. Ultimately, there's a lot of people that are just unfit to be activists. They can't take their ego out of things. And this goes for white activists, black activists. A lot of people are in it for the status, and as an excuse to assuage themselves of guilt.

[@MsDinossaur]

finally some sense!

[@mikesbadopinions9671]

100% you have to be human and try to internalize what’s going on in the area and with the people you want to help. I’m not religious at all but I always think of the saying “If not for the grace of God, there go I.” Basically meaning these people are the same as me just I got lucky and was born in different circumstances. If you just want to do it to make yourself feel better and get cool pics for the gram write a check and stay home.

[@Fawkes1978]

This was a very constructive conversation and the fact that it will not get the same number of views as some, more or less meaningless and forgettable online drama is very disheartening. Never the less, I hope for more content like this video. This, I believe, will help elevate the discourse!

[@stann8032]

The other content is more fun and brings more attention to the channel therefore bringing more attention to these more important and thoughtful videos.

[@M3G4FR34K]

Like and share muhduhfuckuh lol

[@Begeru]

also it's annoying how basically none of the comments are even addressing what the guest says. Just responses to the title alone.

[@bananapolitical]

Maybe not as much as the dramedy vids, but it's gotten more traction than expected for sure.

[@Nerobyrne]

I tend to watch Drama more than once, because it's entertainment. But things like this are more impactful on my life. If others are like me, then views don't always mean impactfulness.

[@seandoyle296]

The kind of "Stay in your lane" or "You can't speak on this" dismissiveness results in more right-wing rhetoric that the left of politics is actually more racist. If you exclude allies based on race, you perpetuate the problem rather than overturning it.

[@TheBlarggle]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

[@lubu2960]

It really feels like with these kind of people racism was never the problem, just what it was done to them

[@Wendy_O._Koopa]

TRUE The problem is very simple. *Dumbasses Need to Stay In Their Lane* That's it, that's what the rule _should be;_ but of course the average dumbass is also suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect so...

[@tankiebot704]

bullshit, what's racist is you thinking you can immerse yourself in any conversation and that you can speak for other community. that's literal white supremacy.

[@rockmycd1319]

@@tankiebot704 What? What you've just asserted is far more ethno-nationalistic than someone "speaking for a community".

[@edghhfdchjnmmm]

stay in your lane has always came off as a super pompous quip regardless of the context and its usually echoed by the most obnoxious personalities

[@Pluveus]

This is the conversation the professor Flowers debate should have been.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Imagine a hypothetical where all native americans are polled and decide that white people can stay, but black people have to be sent to Africa. Who do you side with? Can you see how "this race knows what's best" is not a sound philosophical position? If you're not interested in ending race as a concept and interracial cooperation for EVERYONE, you are a racist. Those are the only two choices. If you choose to be racist that's cool, but don't call yourself a leftist when you aren't.

[@Haydefaid]

@@Noah-es5iz you mean MELANIN? lmaooo

[@kingjoeblack5]

So in this scenario… both the groups that enslaved black Americans get to decide to kick us out of the country we built? Killmonger was right.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

@@kingjoeblack5 I don't remember the part of history where native americans enslaved black people. Pretty sure they were busy being dead.

[@kingjoeblack5]

@@PlatinumAltaria you might want to read up on history then or you could ask the Choctaw Freedmen… everyone in this country makes time to screw over black people.

[@HP-sq2fp]

@@kingjoeblack5 that’s their point though, when you go with the idea (like professor flowers) that native people should get to decide what happens with this land, they COULD decide that. The point they’re making is that it’s a bad idea to just base what’s right or wrong based on the race of who’s saying/doing it, and instead you should focus on whether the action itself is right or wrong. Because obviously if the choice was left to native people and they did decide to kick out black people (I don’t think they would, but for the sake of the hypothetical) that would be an immoral choice. But if you’re just going with well that’s what native people decided so that’s their right, then you’d have to just let it happen. That’s the point

[@gryph0n55]

Here’s the way I look at it, do most POC have a better understanding of the struggles of life as a person of color than most white people? Yes. Does that mean white people have no ability to analyze or understand elements of this or formulate genuine arguments within that discourse? No. Humans have a thing called empathy for a reason, we can identify with a struggle we don’t have. You don’t have to have the complete personal understanding of something to still be able to have reasonable and valid opinions/arguments about it. Look at leftist spaces, do you think most people in this spaces are PhD holding political science and economic experts? No. But that doesn’t mean all leftists who aren’t a doctor have no valid points to make. Do expert opinions/arguments hold more immediate credibility? Yes. But that doesn’t mean non-experts have no credibility. Most of us don’t have the objective expertise that Jordan Peterson has through his education and experience, does that mean everyone who ranks below him on the subjects he’s educated on need to stay quiet and just listen to what he says? Or course no. Him having the better credentials doesn’t inherently mean he knows more or has the more valid argument. Professor Flowers is a black woman, but look how bad her argument was about native populations getting to genocide colonizers if they so choose. There is more immediate credibility to the argument of someone who has directly lived through persistent racism when talking about racism, but that doesn’t translate to them inherently understanding it better or having a good argument, just that they are more likely too. You don’t have to be a PhD in political science to argue about the pros/cons of Socialism. You don’t have to have a masters in statistical economics to argue about the potential future of our economy. You don’t have to be a computer programmer to argue the value of cryptocurrency. You don’t have to have a PhD in clinical psychology to argue the merits of Jordan Peterson’s arguments. You don’t have to be a soldier to argue the validity of wars. You don’t have to be a POC to argue about racism. The fact is a lot of discourse on racism doesn’t actually require lived experience, a lot of it is statistical data and historical fact. None (or very few) of the online leftists POC content creators discussing the George Floyd murder and police brutality have never been physically assaulted by the police, but that doesn’t mean what they are saying doesn’t matter. It just means lived experience isn’t the beginning and end of an argument’s validity. I’m not white, and at no point have I ever felt the need to default towards a “you’re not POC so you don’t know” when arguing with white people on these issues, because not only does that only go so far as an argument it also often doesn’t matter cause most of this discourse is settled in data more than anecdote. The same way you don’t have to have the highest level of expertise on a subject to still be right is the same way you don’t have to have the most experience with racism to still be right. 95% of the time the racism argument at hand isn’t even relevant to whether or not the people arguing it are or aren’t POC. You don’t have to be the most knowledgeable to still be adequately knowledgeable, you don’t need to have the most credentials to be right.

[@LetsBeCasual]

Most white people have no empathy

[@Ahov]

@@LetsBeCasual So *ALL* white people should just shut up? Yeah, that'll be really productive for you. You're literally becoming the stereotype that right-wingers claim the left is

[@gryph0n55]

@@LetsBeCasual nice b8, not gonna work homie

[@LetsBeCasual]

@@Ahov how

[@gryph0n55]

@@LetsBeCasual cool, don’t care, didn’t ask.

[@Neon_Plasma]

Christmas definitely needs to stay in it's lane as a Halloween lover.

[@RealmRabbit]

What are your thoughts on "The Nightmare Before Christmas"? Christmas movie or Halloween movie?

[@Neon_Plasma]

@@RealmRabbit yes

[@RealmRabbit]

@@Neon_Plasma It wasn't really a yes/no question, but I'll take it...

[@depanda9498]

I think what he was really trying to get across was that you gotta be a bit more patient in black circles bc we live in the context of history. Its like if 2 people did an algebra problem, 1 of them miscalculated in the middle of the process so it's understandable why and the other is doing geometry some how. Both are wrong but it's a bit nuanced

[@stormRed]

It's not about 'talking over people' or 'assuming you know more than them'. Of course someone from a minority is more likely to be educated about that subject, but if we want to be able to hold people accountable when they mess up, we have to acknowledge that being born a certain way doesn't make you automatically arrive at the right opinions, and vice versa. Just like if a man were to call JK Rowling out for transphobia for exemple, that doesn't make it mansplaining.

[@lisarox4221]

Going to be honest, "Staying in your lane" gives out "Separate but equal" vibes.

[@Somebodi346]

Its the kind of thing that sometimes reinforces my belief that many leftist circles don't want to dismantle systems of oppression, they just want new management. Kinda sucks.

[@Charles-pf7zy]

@@Somebodi346 they would rather have wakanda for blacks than social programs for all. Just self entitled narcissists, using the political leverage they have just support the same shitty politicians that happen to look like them

[@Charles-pf7zy]

If they don’t want solidarity for the working class maybe we should just cede Montana or something for their little ethnostate so they can turn it into Somalia

[@einrombelpthemajestic9616]

@@Charles-pf7zy This is your brain on Vaush

[@raak4070]

@@einrombelpthemajestic9616 how could you possibly confuse this guy with us? Do you just not pay attention or what?

[@TwinSteel]

This felt like a very productive conversation that was very different from the type of videos you get clipped for - it’s a good conversation with ideas that are meaningful to share - excellent

[@TwinSteel]

And I really appreciate the context you added at the end

[@yoredeerleader]

This is simple. I’d you are speaking for a minority you are not a member of, make it clear you speak to the experiences of those minorities. And then listen to what others tell you is their experience. As a cis gay white dude, and a punk from the 80s and 90s, I quote Chuck Dee or Run or someone else and echo their experience and say who said it and the context of why it was said. I’m a large tattooed 50+ year old Lilly white skinhead, and the fact I can reference the lyrics of Dr Dre, Snoop, Wu Tang, 2Pac, Lenny Kravitz, Prince, Grandmaster Flash, George Clinton, Marvin Gaye, etc, usually surprises people of colour (because they often think that is their music based on their racial group but it’s also my music based on my age and much of it I consider punk music). Public Enemy uses so many samples from MLK that I can often quote directly from him. I then explain how being gay allows me to recognise bigotry in general and my white privilege as a straight passing queer, and I say that though being LGBTQ+ is an entirely different experience to being a PoC and we face different experiences with discrimination which can never be compared, I have solidarity with PoC because I lived through the AIDS crisis and saw my generation destroyed by conservatives and lost 100s of friends. So I understand a community under attack. I might put on the 90s industrial album Friendly Fascism by Consolidated, which contains the track White American Male, a track that represents my opinions about being a white man. It also samples a cringeworthy KKK song. If I need to, I can explain my experience as a teen living in south Florida on a whites only island and how the town on the mainland was still segregated and cops didn’t patrol or respond to calls from people in black parts of town. And how the national headquarters of the KKK was just down the coast. I often ask others how I can improve my message with them in mind. If people realise you are trying to be a better ally they usually will cut you some slack and may instruct you how to shape your delivery.

[@Metonymy1979]

Yes. It's about recognizing you can sympathize but you can't empathize and that's okay.

[@withlove4327]

Honestly as a poor white person in a poor mostly white rural area idk how I feel about getting a ton of wealthy liberal activists in here. Mind you none of them would want to come here regardless but I can't imagine in person activism aside from the few food drives we get would do much good. There should be more support for poor communities across the board regardless of race but I think racial activism definitely looks cooler on social media to these people so... also this place is spooky to out of towners and for good reason. I also can't imagine telling the people around here who to vote for would work out well.

[@virtualgambit577]

Poor rural white majority areas are extremely common in the Midwest and are a mostly ignored demographic. Conservatives recognize this and use fear mongering as their tool to guarantee votes. This demographic needs to be paid attention to more, the sentiment amongst them seems to be that they’re ignored and forgotten (and lash out as a result). It’s an uphill battle that would take many decades, but is important nonetheless.

[@xdpking9271]

Once we realize we can have control over the market like China has done us poor people will be given a actual chance at success. FUCK THE FREE MARKET!

[@beezusHrist]

@@xdpking9271 what you are saying is dumb and China is not centrally planned and centrally planned markets do not work. China REGULATES capitalism and we barely do it. That's all. Centrally planned economies without, like, a super advanced AI (which does not exist yet) is a REALLY dumb. Markets exist to determine the PRICE of goods. Central planners cannot do that because they will not have all the information to make decisions on price which is why MARKETS determine price.

[@jamesstephenson3305]

@@beezusHrist China has tangible decade long economic plans and manages to complete very impressive projects which are clearly the result of careful planning... for example the world is now greener than it was in the 80s due to the masssive reforestation efforts that China has undergone. Also the way in which the poor are being uplifted out of poverty in china is pretty damn impressive. Also regarding the price of goods, sure yes, markets are great at figuring the price of goods, but that doesn't necessarily mean the value of good being produced.... I.e. the market determines the price which a tenant should pay to live in a house for 1 year, this does not relate to the value, i.e. labour, required to maintain a house for 1 year (including construction labour/ years the house will exist for)

[@russellward4624]

Now replace your arguemnt with wealthy conservatives. Is that better? More likely far far worse right? Or let's do nothing and leave it to private businesses? Which is just conservatives.

[@stupidlol293]

As a white person I can confirm from having been at some of these BLM protests, white people really can be so FUCKING annoying. I don’t say that to be a pick me either, i KNOW I’m annoying too sometimes, but I’m really grateful for my friends who showed me how to chill out more. Idk how to really describe it other than an overconfidence that they know everything there is to know, coupled with a certain kind of cultural blindness that can be really easily amended by just immersing yourself in more black media. The white dude that wouldn’t stfu on the “legendary cope stream” is a good example of that, or the white girls from Channel 5’s “Uhuru White Savior” video. Overall I don’t think people in this country truly understand how vastly separated racial/class groups truly are. It’s very disturbing and I love this guy for talking to Vaush about it because this is so incredibly important

[@MusicMissionary]

Consuming more black media helps, definitely. You know it's a pipe dream but wouldn't it be awesome to hear from Cornell West on Vaush's stream?

[@fgizzle13]

I can understand what may bring someone that has experienced racism towards themselves throughout their life to feel resentment towards the group that dished it out to them. Regardless of their circumstances, however sympathetic they may be, should not make any racist feelings they have any less serious or more valid. Racism from or against anyone should be equally demonized, but you also have to be conscious of the reasoning. This guy's mom is likely not the same as some white neo-nazi despite their similarly racist views

[@reesf743]

Talking about someones issues and talking over them about those issues are two different things

[@dannysdungareedanceoff8481]

Exactly

[@nnniiillleee20000]

I think the distinction isn't necessarily 'staying in your lane' so much as it is devaluing the lived-in realities that inherently contextualize how bipoc view/analyze their socioeconomic environment versus non-bipoc. There isn't an inherent expertise that comes with my identity, no, but there are plenty of white "allies" who have not done the research/have not explored experiences outside their own that are fully confident in dismissing my perspective on black issues as a BLACK STUDIES MAJOR. Like that's how we get those hyper-progressive takes of "it's not racism just classism." Everyone's human but we can have some baseline expectations for allyship.

[@zaidabraham7310]

So your baseline expectation for allyship is that every white person should agree with you about everything related to black issues. You will struggle to find another black person to agree with you on everything. Why hold white people to different standards? Disagreements are normal.

[@MsDinossaur]

Based

[@tankiebot704]

@@zaidabraham7310 no allyshio means accepting what black people view as the issues and accepting their solutions. if you don't agree with them then don't get involved.

[@nnniiillleee20000]

@Harry Evans I mean, yes? I study the different cultures and communities across the known Black diaspora (Africa, U.S. w/ African Americans, Britain w/ Caribbean Brits.) I also have a second major in Political Science, and a minor in sociology. Like dunk on my take if you want to but it's very much a legitimate area of study.

[@nnniiillleee20000]

@@zaidabraham7310 Of course not! There are plenty of areas in policy and philosophy where reasonable people, regardless of race, can disagree with me completely! I'm moreso trying to advocate for not outright dismissing the perview/experiences of Black people, as well as the data and academic research that oftentimes underpins it, when engaging in allyship. Especially if you don't have enough research or understanding on the given racial issue to have your own principled stance.

[@ernestmendoza4469]

proof this issue can actually be talked about, contrary to what prof flowers believes

[@MichaelBNegron]

I really liked this call and the caller, but as a mixed race dude I gotta say that it always stings to be talked about like we're some cultural experiment. I hope the caller really thinks about what was said 25:00 onward because most mixed folks will tell you we get this bullshit line of thinking all the time. What his mother said IS racist; we are not some calculation for you to parse for the greater culture war, and many mixed folks feel incredibly alienated by comments like this because we KNOW a lot of BIPOC people don't view us as part of the community (and it shows!). I really wanted this dude to give a full-throated disavowal of that kind of thing. I get that it's his mom, and I understand that it's coming from a place of hurt, but it's dehumanizing, as though we're just the sum of our parents' parts. Mixed identity is so much more complex than that, and as a Latinx dude, I can tell you that it's certainly not as simple as trying to "keep the race white" -- if this dude only knew the myriad disagreements Latinx people have about culture, skin color, and geopolitical history, I doubt he'd be arguing this. It's kind of hard to care about the sociopolitical considerations and *exactly* how harmful racism from minorities is versus white racism when you're the target of it. In case you don't know dude, we're getting hit from both sides; some of my more racist extended family members on each side of the racial aisle only ever agree on one thing: that my parents should've stuck to their own "kind." Equivocating and putting "your people's" feelings above the fact that they're BEING RACIST to folks who view ALSO VIEW YOU AS THEIR PEOPLE just supports this bullshit reasoning! I sincerely hope he takes the time to talk with mixed people and Latinx people more, as the comments came off as well-meaning but incredibly condescending in the same way he was complaining about white people doing earlier. This is also a perfect example of why the "stay in your lane" discourse is ultimately detrimental: I could easily say that about him right now, but I want him to learn and grow and I'm glad he got his thoughts out there. I'm glad he said his piece! Because now, he can (hopefully) learn and grow, starting with not speaking about mixed folks for us.

[@tankiebot704]

are you denying that the notion of mejorar la raza' aka bettering the race by reproducing with whites or by excluding pocs? lol. His mother wasn't racist because she not making arguments about genetics but culture and economics

[@MichaelBNegron]

​@@tankiebot704 His mother doesn't need to be talking about haplogroups to be racist, don't be obtuse. Most people don't talk about or like that, but both the material reality and the effect on the people they are talking down to is the same. You'd think as a socialist you'd be able to recognize that, but what a surprise that you preference your own experiences over ours. Never had that happen before 🙄 Secondly, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I am saying that it is tremendously flattening the reality into a useful caricature to justify racism. And it is, whether that fits your tiny ideological framework or not.

[@CronusPerson]

I apologize if I am showing my ignorance here. As I understand it, "White" people are the majority in population and hold the most institutional power, so it seems to me that telling "White" people to "stay in their lanes" is counterproductive. It seems to me that you need the support of many people to have the power to make meaningful change or just seize power directly. The latter seems less realistic in my opinion. In case someone accuses me of being white to dismiss my comment, I'm actually Asian from a third world country if that matters.

[@HP-sq2fp]

It really makes no sense, but it shows that a lot of people don’t actually care about real change they just like the social aspect of “shut up you’re white LOL” on social media. That’s really as deep as it goes for a lot of people. It’s just a socially acceptable way of venting your own anger or personal problems onto other people and to be abusive without appearing like the bad guy on the surface

[@cartooonman8626]

I think some people are just frustated by white people and their frustration blind them

[@tankiebot704]

no it's not counterproductive.

[@CronusPerson]

@@tankiebot704 why?

[@tankiebot704]

@@CronusPerson because you guys have different interests, values and ways of looking at the world. to have you guys dictating the way vaush does is what's counterproductive

[@peachcobbler5852]

This video poses some really interesting ideas, I really loved his anecdote about people who would rather go to black communities to do service than poor white ones. I live in a very poor rural area, and I think so many people are afraid to go to these rural spaces because they are seen as "irredeemable". There's this whole idea that the people out here are nothing but savage gun-toting trumpies, and while there are a lot of folks out there who do subscribe to conservative beliefs they are still humans who with complex lives and backgrounds and deserve to be treated as a human, a lot of these people act the way they do because they are scared, less able to afford proper education, and being taken advantage of by our rich republican politicians. I genuinely believe a lot of the people who live out here are actually for community action and support. I have witnessed firsthand my community coming together to help those in need, to lift up our less fortunate neighbors. But because these people are white and they are conservative, white lefties deem these people completely irredeemable and not worth their time. I don't even necessarily want a bunch of mission group lefties coming to "help" I would rather people just offer their empathy and help in ways that actually have meaning like on a larger scale that would ultimately help both black and rural communities by making sure our voices are heard and put into place policies that would help those in less privileged positions like universal health care, UBI, Unions, etc.

[@SarahRoseCO10]

This was a fantastic convo and 100% what I had hoped for from professor flowers.

[@zachperkins688]

I once went canvassing in a black neighborhood for Nina Turner and good lord, I was so turned off by some of the volunteers I was with (all stereotypical Gen Z progressive types). Several of them had the pompous know-it-all attitude regarding black issues and would just speak openly about how black people were voting against their interests... to literally black voters. I found myself doing nothing but damage control for those volunteers the whole night. Like honestly if you're going to have a bunch of upper middle class GenZ leftists go into a black neighborhood, for the love of god, have some humility and listen to them more - these idiots all just acted like they were so smart and in the process made themselves look a bit racist. The experience really turned me off from volunteering with them again, it made me insanely uncomfortable and honestly it was never a good idea to send a horde of GenZ suburban lefists into black neighborhoods to tell them how to vote in the first place.

[@SomethingImpromptu]

This brings up something I’ve been dealing with a lot around a variety of different issues, such as the tendency of oppressed people to sometimes gravitate towards nationalist (or even ethnonationalist- ProfessorFlowers lol) ideologies because they buy their propaganda & therefore perceive them as the bulwark of anti-imperialism/anti-colonialism in some parts of the developing world, even though internationalism is the more coherent, more genuinely, universally anti-imperialist, pro-worker, pro-socialist tendency & nationalism is diametrically opposed to all of that & typically ends up with nationalists supporting their own nation’s imperialism because rather than a principled anti-imperialism position they just don’t want THEIR OWN sovereignty violated) to people buying racist propaganda because of economic anxiety, & beyond… I think it’s very important to make the following distinction. There are a lot of issues where we may be able to (or even should) sympathize with WHY someone holds the beliefs they do, but where we should, nonetheless, steadfastly oppose the actual positions, which are wrong. Understanding, sympathy, compassion, even towards those whose ideologies we want to defeat, is important. This is a natural rational conclusion when you realize the extent to which we’re products of our environment- that if I had been born in a different family, under different conditions, I could’ve been the moron QAnon believer who thinks immigrants are evil because they’re taking our jobs. That doesn’t mean they’re even vaguely close to correct. They’re wrong, & their beliefs are ethically horrible, & need to be fought against. But we can still recognize their humanity & have compassion for them with the understanding that they just got unlucky- they got dealt a hand that ended up leading them to dumb-f^%# conclusions. Likewise, I can have compassion & understanding for why someone in Syria who is terrified of a US invasion like neighboring Iraq suffered might cling to the horrible Syrian Arab ethnonationalists in the Ba’ath Party & SAA who they think are standing up for Syria’s sovereignty. I can still think they’d be far better off if they went to actual anti-imperialist leftists who don’t hypocritically want to ethnically cleanse Kurds & take back Rojava under authoritarian Arab nationalist state control & destroy the revolution there, who don’t make common cause with literal fascists in the SSNP who have designs on a “Greater Syria” just like Hitler did a “Greater Germany” & Likud does a “Greater Israel,” or the “Grand Area” of global empire envisioned US imperial planners. They’re all imperialists, because that’s what happens when you make up myths about unified “national interests” & put grandiose nationalists in state power, & none of them are a just or rational ideological conclusion. But being oppressed & brutalized & being the brutal oppressor can both do crazy shit to your brain & we should want to help these people get out of their indoctrination & improve their conditions as best as we can. The same is true of the caller’s mom. We can oppose her racist conclusions but still work to have understanding & compassion & sympathy for WHY she would reach those conclusions, what she has experienced to get her there. Doesn’t mean they were the right conclusions to draw. But it means she’s a human & a product of her environment just like we are, & we could’ve been the ones who were born in her shoes or vice versa. It can be a tough balance to walk, because we don’t want to overly humanize or generate too excessive a ratio of sympathy for people with bad politics vs making clear to people how harmful those politics can be. Which is why I think Vaush is right not to make this a massive part of his rhetoric when he’s dealing with really despicable forces like fascism & racism & pro-dictatorship authoritarianism & genocide denial & such. But on a personal level I still think it’s crucial for leftists to exercise their higher emotional/cognitive faculties this way & not just dehumanize anyone who holds some inhumanly bad beliefs. We’ve got to simultaneously remember that people are not their beliefs/ideology, but also how much actual suffering bad beliefs/ideology can cause (& it’s complicated by the fact that our ideas & actions do define who we are in some respects, but that we also are malleable & subject to change & wouldn’t necessarily have wanted to hold harmful beliefs if we had a higher perspective that wasn’t shaped by environment). So it’s complicated. I think both Vaush & the caller held pretty reasonable positions on this stuff.

[@savantGK3]

I think the distinction should be made more clearly between talking about black experiences vs. talking about black issues. Black people do have a unique, and obviously much more lived insight into what it is like to be black, how it feels to be black, what it means to be black. This does not mean black people are more capable of diagnosing the ills plaguing the black community or developing solutions. Black people are capable of being flat out wrong about black issues, and white people are just as capable of providing meaningful, actionable input into fixing black issues. And societal change/improvement requires the input, and buy-in of the entire society. Shutting yourself off into a space with only those who look like you may make you feel good, as echo chambers often do, but meaningful change requires much more than that. Black people alone didn’t sign the Civil Rights Act into law. Black people alone didn’t free themselves from slavery.

[@tankiebot704]

there is no distinction. black people decide what black issues are.

[@charliekahn4205]

And vice versa: white people are uniquely capable of describing white experiences, but are no more capable than anyone else at describing issues plaguing their communities.

[@pwesiti]

I genuinely enjoyed this conversation.

[@themightymcb7310]

There's nothing more demoralizing than attempting to help only to actually be chastised for your efforts and told to "stay in your lane". That is like a one sentence guide book on how you turn formally disengaged liberals into engaged conservatives.

[@Metonymy1979]

That's a mistake on your part. Recognize that you are paying attention to the loudest minority. The majority want allies. Help because it's the right thing to do, not because you want praise for helping.

[@galedribble9535]

If something so simple turns one into a conservative they were never left leaning at all

[@Metonymy1979]

@@galedribble9535 I hear this in Dale Gribbles voice and it's perfect.

[@themightymcb7310]

@@galedribble9535 Yes? My comment was specifically about apolitical people. Being a dick to ignorant people who don't know better is a shit strategy and it will push people away from our movement.

[@themightymcb7310]

@@Metonymy1979 If you actually read my comment then you'd know I'm talking about broad strategy to engage apolitical people instead of pushing them away like the left tends to do right now. You can pretend the problem doesn't exist, but that doesn't bring us any closer to solving it. Edit: also I said nothing about praise, I was just saying don't be a douchebag to people with good intentions.

[@lukejackson3901]

I think there's a big thing with what some people have brought up - the idea that viewers can get a warped sense of what's wrong with the world if they mostly watch this stream, in terms of people maybe thinking that there are more crazy black nationalist-types than just normal progressives on our side. I think it's just a really classic example of how people's perspective can be influenced by even just the frequency of highlighting certain perspectives and political positions. If Vaush had an anarchist arc, a lot more people would think that Anarchism is the hot-button topic of the day.

[@thinkoutsidethelines8265]

No Bernie getting decimated in terms of black vote proves there's very few of them its not just the stream being inhospitable or too white whatever excuses

[@tankiebot704]

@@thinkoutsidethelines8265 why say excuses as if black people not being so called progressives is something to apologise for? We have no interest in being on your side

[@FelisImpurrator]

Spoiler: The correct answer is "no". That kind of identity essentialism is categorically not leftism. Personal guilt is not a coherent ethical position or relevant to activist praxis, kthx.

[@MsDinossaur]

POV: you’re exactly the type of person they’re talking abt in the video lol

[@chiangkaishrek5123]

@@MsDinossaur Don’t care didn’t ask + ratio + your white + you fell off + cope

[@MsDinossaur]

@@chiangkaishrek5123 M-MASAKA!!!

[@wa-bu3ke]

It's only No if you're an ally. But Vaush is not and is against Decolonialism. Makes the same AltRight arguments. So you're all the same to POC. White Liberals like Voosh are no different from White Conservatives

[@macnificent4]

@@MsDinossaur exactly

[@tofuteh2348]

I think what many people want from vaush is to be more thorough when encountering things like black people being anti white and explain the context and why they might feel the way they do before jumping to "fascist, black nazi"

[@moselaw2]

Yes this is exactly it. We can recognize that black people have bad positions that are informed by a history of oppression but that does not make them comparable to literal white supremacist fascists. Black people are against race mixing because for years our people have been the subject of many atrocities with the express intent of making our lives unlivable and even wiping our culture out completely. White people are against race mixing because they're informed by the white supremacist that black people are violent, aggressive, inferior, etc.

[@tofuteh2348]

@@moselaw2 i do think pointing out that they end up with similar conclusions as white supremicists can be useful in changing minds, but only if you provide the context for all of it beforehand, which vaush does sometimes, but not always

[@moselaw2]

@@tofuteh2348 i agree wholeheartedly. I point out how dumb being anti "swirler" (a disparaging term for black people who date out the race) is everyday in my online spaces.

[@moselaw2]

To add to this, I have family members who are not against race mixing but they would prefer their kids date other black people. Mostly because they feel as if blackness has been disparaged for so long that they have come to become prideful in their color as a response to white supremacy. This means that they like the prospect of continuing to have black kids added to the family.

[@tofuteh2348]

@@moselaw2 oh absolutely. While maybe not a direct response to white supremacy, my chinese family also does the same thing and some of them never even went to school, so im fortunate to be able to learn things about intersectionality and systemic issues instead of going to the same conclusions they did. Its still frustratingly conservative tho :v

[@adaydreamhd]

Good takes. wrote some down. especially the put aside the ego while doing advocacy. wp lads

[@GeoNeilUK]

I think the EJ/Luna/TS v Vaush arc has led directly into the Vaush tackles the VDS Pandemic arc!

[@cruznix4741]

Now I don’t know if I’m right, but I feel that the constant deference given in the “well it’s not as systemically damaging” neglects the interpersonal dynamic which, personally, I’m not so keen on dispensing

[@kevinandorsusie]

This is by no means a 1:1 comparison, but I can kind of recognize where Nicholas is coming from when I think of my experiences in online feminist spaces. Like a poster will be using blunt and to the point language because they assume that the audience they're reaching is either other feminists or people who are open enough to it to listen, but every time without fail there'll be some dude in the comments who intentionally hunts down these pages just to comment "not all men". And it's like buddy, your desperate need to protect your ego and have your hand held while being whispered positive affirmations, for you to even consider the possibility that women deserve to be treated like people is not only PART of the problem, but it's also definitely not helping any of the women in these comments who you're trying to accuse of being misandrists from not becoming one. Sometimes people aren't talking about issues with the intent to educate, sometimes they're doing it just to share and find comfort in others who understand. And usually they're doing it in places intended for that. I agree with Vaush's overall point that people shouldn't be excluded from a discussion point blank period over immutable traits and that certain public figures have a responsibility to be aware of their language since they by default reach a broader audience, but I also recognize that there's a time, and a place and that we should respect the space when it comes to marginalized people venting about their experiences.

[@Ellipsis115]

I think if I were vaush I would have said more things like: "oh yeah I'm sorry if I gave the impression that *quote the thing he was misinterpretting what vaush said*" emphassis on the "if **I** gave" make it seem like vaush is giving a concession, when ofcourse he's not, its not a concession if thats what you thought the whole time. And also if at the end 35:21 vaush would say "OK, I will try to do *what he asked vaush to do in future that vaush agreed with*" I say these 'critisisms' I guess, although really I think this is a really good example of looking like your conceding without conceding, especially after the call ends if you want to look back at this and analyse.

[@luminousghosts]

I like this dude, seems really genuine and kind.

[@antoineiamurri2]

There's always a weird dynamic in offering and accepting help in general, it's loosely related to the discussion but good to keep in mind imo that the charitable transaction goes both ways, when you provide help, the person receiving that help gives back a piece of either their pride or their sense of autonomy, which is in turn interpreted as gratitude and internalized as a feeling of pride/self worth by the person offering the help, which means when you give people help who don't want/need it you are forcing them into a transaction that makes them feel uncomfortable, and in a way, acting selfishly appropriating the aesthetic of selflessness, which is undeserved in this type of interaction.

[@Traditional_American]

There's nothing that drives white people to the far right more than when they try to do things to help POC and are told that they need to, "stay in their lane" and "they have no room to talk because white people are inherently privileged" Especially when those white people are also part of the working class. It makes it far too easy for people like Nick Fuentes to point to that and say, "see they hate you, even when you try to help them they swat your hand away because they're just racist against white people. We need to stop helping them and focus only on white issues!" Attitudes like this are not helpful in any way and imo are harmful to poc as a whole.

[@zen_tewmbs]

Cringe is cringe. Anyone can post cringe regardless of race, and anyone can be based regardless of race.

[@CyanCooper]

OnLy wOmEn cAn bE gYneCoLogiSts.

[@benhutto3537]

You joke man, but I’m a current medical student who has expressed interest to some of my friends in doing OB-GYN and been told I shouldn’t bc I’m a man. It’s insane. Guess if I want to do Oncology I should start getting some cancer pretty soon.

[@timmysleftnutsack5075]

yeah, why are men tryna become gynecologist? Fucking weird and uncomfy. Creeps. Go perform colonoscopy’s

[@8menincostume]

@@timmysleftnutsack5075 the people performing these are usually very anal about it, and their anal about their studies too

[@TheBlarggle]

@@benhutto3537 No, it's because historically, and currently, women have their engagements with medical professionals minimized or outright dismissed when dealing with male doctors. Having someone you should be able to trust on a medically-intimate level not have the PERSONAL understanding of vaginal healthcare is a legitimate concern. No one cares that you think you're "one of the good ones". And yes, there's a level of creepiness and perviness to a male gyno. And it's extremely telling you'd compare having cancer to having a vagina.

[@RasmusVJS]

@@TheBlarggle "And yes, there's a level of creepiness and perviness to a male gyno." Wtf? That is not at all an inherent quality, and not a problem with male gynecologists, but creepy and pervy people in general.

[@DethklokMinion]

I live in a poorer mainly white, trailer park type of area. I've seen, and heard of the worst types of behavior from pretty much mostly white people exclusively. I am white myself. It's the poor economic situation that creates these problems mostly. Cars being broken into, thieves, violence, ect. Though there are exceptions in the rich community, like the allegations against SkyDoesMincraft are especially horrendously disturbing. Crappy people, will be crappy regardless, but most overarching issue with poverty where community issues come through. If everyone had a fulfilled work life and enough money to spend on non essential pleasures after being able to afford bills, food, vehicle then societal problems would for the most part be alleviated.

[@AWES0MEP3RS0N]

Vaush was kinda missing his point, but overall this was a nice, constructive convo and i hope he'll do more like this. It doesn't get as much views, but it's nice seeing issues being talked about openly and politely.

[@harrywompa]

It seems like the main point here is that you should be polite and understanding with people you talk to irl, which I can get behind. I just wish that point wasn't used as a bludgeon so often, it's not bad to be mean, it's sometimes really useful actually. It just doesn't have a place in scenarios like those talked about here. It's maybe less stay in your lane and more... read the room? Exercise humility? Have self awareness, basically, so you can be mean and be graceful appropriately.

[@biggusdickus6537]

Well, I mean, Vaush essentially *IS* a good live streamer

[@tylerhackner9731]

No

[@stann8032]

Fun thumbnail.

[@alexkehoepwj]

No name is my favorite woman in hip hop right now, so it kind of stings to know that I'm rejected before we even meet

[@freedomofmusic2112]

41:06 "Sargon the 'Jewish Question' of Akkad" LMAO i love it

[@bulletsandbracelets4140]

I really wonder how much more successful leftist movements would be if they focused on supporting in-community solutions, regardless of other factors. Feels like the one thing that conservatives and leftists could agree on. This was a really great convo, I appreciate these discussions.

[@charliekahn4205]

It has worked and works today. The issue I see with current leftist movements is that there is little to no networking/communication between communities.

[@MsDinossaur]

guys help, what is the ‘amara conversation’ ??

[@trucluu7894]

I think that is the professor flower convo

[@MsDinossaur]

@@trucluu7894 oh no she sucks

[@kaydenl6836]

This man’s mum does not override the vast majority of evidence and other’s lives. He’s right there’s a better way to talk to people, but simply talking about factual information is not “stepping out of your lane”.

[@ThePsychoRenegade]

You can educate people without being patronizing about it. Being in leftist circles, I can definitely believe they'd be patronizing about it.

[@danecottee6859]

If a person of color accuses you of not understanding their experience just agree that you couldn't possibly ad explain you are just a nerd for social issues.

[@SoniaSephia]

The real racism where the friends we made along the way!

[@shaheenshad5012]

*were

[@harrydresden4661]

There is no lane for anyone to stay on.

[@s-e-e-k-i-n-g]

i do understand how white ppl come across as so annoying or even offensive when they appear to butt in to discourse or spaces they weren't necessarily invited to and add their unsolicited two cents- usually it's because it's the same flavour of men butting into metoo threads and going Not All Men or Well Actually. however racism is an issue that affects everyone since everyone is capable of participating in or being victim to a form of racism, and it's smth to universally care about as a human rights issue. so everyone should be able to speak on it to a degree, especially when the discourse is happening in a public space. some white ppl are just sooo..ugh but pushing people away and telling them to stay in their lane bc theyre white is basically saying that the issue of racism is none of their business, and also pushing away white people who genuinely care and want to be better informed and have a discussion because they care. and it's especially weird to act like it's none of their business even though at the same time the same there's a social demand for everyone cares and pays attention to racism.

[@s-e-e-k-i-n-g]

sorry for the janky writing i can only see the top part of my keyboard bc my phone screen is dying

[@charliekahn4205]

All this except for the fact that sexism is also a universal issue, just in a slightly different way which makes those "not all" men look hateful rather than cringey.

[@xamp_exclammark]

Ask the people who make this sort of argument about Candace Owens lol

[@moselaw2]

As stupid as Candace Owens is, she has the experience of being a black women and understands our community more than most white people. Her opinions are trash but we don't downplay her experience just because we don't like what she says.

[@xamp_exclammark]

@@moselaw2 downplaying the experience is just a rethoric thing i just wanted to see if the opinions got absolved by the sense of "experience",because the way people like Professor Flowers argue this point unironically come off as if you can have any opinion when you're black.

[@charliekahn4205]

@@moselaw2 this. Racial perspective is only essential when discussing the experiences of people of a certain race, and after that anyone can join the discussion.

[@tankiebot704]

it applies to Candace owens too. She's a black woman and as a member of the black community she gets to speak in ways that a white lefties does not.

[@moselaw2]

@@xamp_exclammark you're not allowed any opinion bc PF would be first to say Candace has terrible positions, but when analyzing the opinions of a marginalized group you have to take into consideration how its connected to the history of their community.

[@chriscopley7265]

"99 white balloons..."

[@MikeSpike117]

A luuuuuv blac peepul

[@IamJenJen101]

I would say the only reason race would be relevant is if you have someone directly effected by the issues stated. Professor flowers isn't a person who's affected by African imperialism. She is affected today by the trans Atlantic slave trade, but not the taking control by European countries afterword. I don't think professor flowers has any stool to stand on above a white educated person. If there was a black African person who had been affected by that their voice would be more relevant then professor flowers, or some educated white person, although that wouldn't mean neither can say anything on the topic.

[@SipDeathTheKid]

No? Yes? I have no idea to be honest. I'm black, gender fluid and bisexual so I suppose I check some boxes in the minority department, I operate through the world differently. As someone that easily fell into the alt right pipeline and was basically like a mini Candace owens except I wasn't disingenuous I was just fucking stupid lmao; white influencers had a heavy influence on me as well as the black ones. I'm a comic fan and basically because of the typical generic "woke" talking points i slowly fell into an ignorant way of thinking introduced to me by the entertainment i watched and the biases I had, (you can definitely have internalized racism and homophobia.). Everytime I looked at "lgbt" i thought "woke". I say all this to say there are alot of impressionable people and I was one of them. I believe each and everyone of us have a positive hand we could play in dealing with any issue because we're all human and, at the same time We can also play hands that are detrimental to the issues that we face, the propaganda behind covid is literally putting my aunts life in danger as we speak, its fucked. I just quit my job today and my family and therapist found out I have a drug addiction because I finally talked to someone about it after facing my fear. This world is fucked up guys, protect your heart and your mind because if you don't your world can only be as real as the youtubers or influencers who portray it. Be true to yourself and have empathy, my life feels like a living hell rn and vaush, I know you probably will never read this long ass comment but I personally want you to know you make a difference. I can definitely say that I have prejudice against white people, there's too many influencers who were white shaping my world view. Its something I'm working on, its a lack of trust predicated from a lack of interaction with them as well. When you talk about things its refreshing because I'm reminded that everyone is human and has empathy. You're a human being who cares about other human beings.

[@rhynoklein7]

I’m surprised Candace Owens didn’t come up in the conversation.

[@TheRenegadeMonk]

Well done for trying Nicholas.

[@aricriggs4997]

I feel like maybe the alabama being the out and out racist is a bit of exaggerated stereotype, but unfortunately it isn't too far gone. I have many people from my hometown who were comfortable with saying some of the more dog whistle-like statements that you are probably familiar. I was lucky to have parents and family friends who were either black+super successful or white, but open minded and listen to things they might disagree with.

[@aricriggs4997]

Though I will say I had a similar convo with my sister about this. I thought this was a productive conversation though! I am gonna think about all this and broaden my perspective hopefully.

[@jqsm1neS]

More like wide people

[@archerbluth]

There is only one instance where white people need to stay in their lane… POTATO SALAD! I mean, raisins? Really?🤣🤣 outside of that, any advocate is a great advocate!!

[@ProperlyGaming]

As a white person, believe me when I say the vast majority of white people would slap the shit out of a white person who puts potatoe salad with raisins in it in front of them. That ain't a race thing that's a someone don't know how to cook thing.

[@archerbluth]

@@ProperlyGaming 🤣🤣🤣 it’s a relief to see that raisins in potato salad are universally despised!!

[@TheNoodleGod9001]

That sounds like somebody ate like a middle eastern couscous kind of thing like 10 years ago and lazily tried to reproduce it from memory.

[@Hubert_Cumberdale_]

Who the fuck puts raisins in potato salad!?

[@tankiebot704]

not any advocate is not a great advocate

[@adaydreamhd]

I have to say i (and every ideologically well adjusted person) was a bernie supporter waaay before shoe was ^^ :b

[@shoutmon1337]

I think the issue is pretty self evident here. You can say your for people, bit if we a those people what they think.of you and it's not favorable... that's much worse for your movement than whatever else your focusing on. It's getting annoying how obvious this is and how much people want to dance around it. I am getting disenfranchised, I know what care about and what I want, but it's becoming increasingly evident those I thought cared arnt rly as invested, and it does effect the results.

[@thatsinteresting3415]

Speaking of Shoe and the sceptic community, her ex boyfriend has gone all in on acient aliens, it seems.

[@rainbowkrampus]

Really? Armored septic tank is such a lolcow.

[@thatsinteresting3415]

@@rainbowkrampus Does anyone laugh at him? He seems like a dead man walking.

[@dannysdungareedanceoff8481]

People who hold these ideals just hold alot of resentment from being wronged that they just somehow justified and the same way that right-wingers do Ofc the difference is one group was wrong, the other wasn't

[@besg5725]

Lmao. From equality to woke ethno states. Why dont all whites and blacks live separately in "separate" but "equal" communities. Love the "stay" in your lane rhetoric.

[@tankiebot704]

ah so either whites get to dictate to everyone or whites are going to get explicitly racist? lol.

[@besg5725]

@@tankiebot704 Either we are all equal and humans or we stay divided by race. Both is ok for me. The world is heading to rampant chauvinism and nationalism, hopefully for the last time this time.

[@ridanann]

If you didn't care about race you wouldn't have to deal with caring about race the trouble is racist care about race and the more racist you having a country the more you have to do about that. Part of fixing racial problems is acknowledging there is no difference except the socio-political environment even then that's not 100% different all the time either way it doesn't know sociopolitical situations change on a butterflies Wing man-made situations are not reef situations but of course racism is man-made it's the perfect stun lock what's the answer we'll figure it out but it certainly doesn't involve going backwards because nothing ever does time is moving forward naturally people live in a forward Direction we must cling to each other like a craft on the river of time not throw each other off. I feel in the divisive age we live in a lack of cooperation coexistence and tolerance makes us look really f****** stupid 100 years ago we were going to be living on the moon never underestimate stupidity it's human not historical. Why everything I said there might be complete bullocks never underestimate stupidity.

[@blitzballrusher4993]

Still always weird to me how Shoe just kind of jumps on Vaush's streams for funzies. Like it doesn't make sense until you realize they are friends. Compared to sub size at least.

[@ianward2120]

in general,i have found that i agree with near 100% of the substance of what vaush MEANS on this topic.. but i break the two categories (individual racism/ systemic racism) instead into "racism" and "racial hatred".. like, doesn't ISM already denote a SYSTEM or MOVEMENT? ..this suffix makes "individual racism" into a contradictory phrase and "systemic racism" into a redundant phrase.. no? they are both still onerous, both still worthy of concentration and discussion.. but they are different with regard to which connects to a widespread historical scaffolding (white supremacy) and which does not. KEY to what i am NOT saying here ="bLaCk PeOpLe CaNnOt Be RaCiSt" ..no, on the contrary i have encountered plenty over the years.. but when i say that, i am talking about PoC who have internalized white supremacy, and articulate a hierarchy of value along that specific, established framework or ISM..(black people that devalue black people) and when patterns of hatred are exhibited which do not conform to the support structure of white supremacy.. "haters".. again, also an issue worth discussing.. but distinct insofar as the 'hows' and 'whys' are concerned. (i know vaush doesn't really discuss this during this specific exchange.. it just reminded me of previous bits along these lines.. is there anyone else out there who hears the phrase "systemic racism" as [systemic race-system] and "individual racism" as [individual race-system]? just when i try to let the suffix mean what it is supposed to mean, the phrases vaush uses don't make semantic sense.

[@rainbowkrampus]

I've been moving away from the systemic racism idea for a bit now. I was watching an interview with Adolph Reed and he said something that really came down on me like a ton of bricks. "Racism is just the belief that race exists." Pithy, simple, eloquent. Encapsulates a whole world of ideas which you otherwise have to write paragraphs to explain. Black people being racist is just an extension of white supremacy because they're both propping up the same idea, the idea that race exists. The distinctions in how people got to their views is interesting but not really important in aggregate. White supremacists don't all hold the same set of underlying beliefs, why would we expect anything different from any other group of racial supremacists? I was just looking at the world you were trying to paint in order to express yourself and thought maybe this concept could be useful for you as it was for me.

[@AP-pk6mk]

I'm glad the black Vaush fans are coming out and telling him their grievances. Vaush has gone on for so long stepping on these issues in a way that is just super frustrating

[@nivelcourbiche6140]

nothing will change lol, around 2 months ago he had a talk with someone on that topic and not even 1 week later he was showing dr.umar to his mostly very white audience

[@sakketin]

@@nivelcourbiche6140 What's wrong with showing Dr. Umar to white people?

[@nivelcourbiche6140]

@@sakketin nothing, but in that talk vaush had agreed that the fact that most of the black people he showed on stream weren't his political allies could have an impact on his audience showing less charitability towards other black people he covered

[@sakketin]

@@nivelcourbiche6140 You might have a point, but most of the people in general Vaush has or shows on his stream are people he disagrees with. Also I think you'd have to be very stupid or racist or both to see a couple of black people with bad views in a twitch stream and make general conclusions based on that.

[@nivelcourbiche6140]

@@sakketin thatt was not only MY point, they both agreed about that

[@vader3669]

VGG chat was so cringe during this

[@adaydreamhd]

i have to find a way to give 4 thumbs up lol

[@emberd-l795]

First

[@maestrojo]

The statement his mom said about not marrying white women because she'll take money and give it to her white family taking away black wealth is EXACTLY what my dad says. Its a very common assumption about black people marrying outside their race.

[@s2sHoXXs2]

i was followin until he mentioned La Raza.... um. speaking as a xicano, since when was "viva la raza" ever a pro white/anti mixing saying....

[@tankiebot704]

i think he was talking about the notion of mejorar la raza .

[@MusicMissionary]

Yeah I thought it meant the opposite

[@herunis]

So many racist black people in the comments make me sad :( Could you stay in your lane and leave the racism to the whites? Thanks

[@noahfletcher3019]

As a black guy I will just tell you that A LOT of black people don't generally like white liberals. And rightly so. We pretend to be nice to you guys but it gets tiring. White conservatives seem to be more honest and down to earth, white liberals just tend to have savior complexes and try to assert themselves in things they don't understand. We have in house issues that y'all need to stay out of. Sorry.

[@herunis]

@@noahfletcher3019 I don't think you should be sorry for speaking from the heart. I think it's something that should be addressed before more animosities form. Just don't be racist about it.

[@noahfletcher3019]

@@herunis "Just don't be racist about it", this seems irrelevant to add unless you think I've said something racist.

[@herunis]

@@noahfletcher3019 oh I wasn't referring to you with that. It was more a generalization

[@noahfletcher3019]

@@herunis oh cool, UK?

[@adamsmasher9769]

14:15 sounds like noname is pretty racist

[@trollmanthatrollington6407]

i tried to act black but they said that just made me even more white. LET ME IN

[@Gearsturfs]

Black college grads man Most sensitive group The fact he thinks white liberals would understand people in trailer parks is ridiculous. I’m from the burbs and I can’t even get along with most white liberals. I get not stepping out of line, I’ve done it plenty. But him saying stay out instead of take it more seriously and participate is silly.

[@tankiebot704]

says the left wing yt racist suffering from yt fragility. Look at you pale racists crying that you don't get to dominate other communities/

[@nivelcourbiche6140]

nah sorry i still think the most sensitive group are white ppl

[@Gearsturfs]

@@nivelcourbiche6140 what a brave and controversial statement

[@Gearsturfs]

@@nivelcourbiche6140 I remember being in college Close friend was a Asian banger from the hood who managed to get in, grew up around black people All the black kids would treat him like shit and say because of his personality he was an appropriator, kick him out of BSU and were frankly scared of him They all did shit no one would ever get away with in the neighborhoods he grew up in, had to keep him from shooting one of em So yeah, y’all are sensitive lol

[@nivelcourbiche6140]

@@Gearsturfswhite people are so sensitive everytime they shit on black people everytime they think they can do so without being perceived as racist, like in the comments of this video

[@hugooseabisket7258]

What frustrates me about these conversations whenever noname is brought up is that nobody brings up the elephant in the room. For a long time no names' stage name had a racial slur for a group she is not in, the irony although not an argument itself should be acknowledged.

[@adaydreamhd]

he kinda gaps the issue by the nuttsack. it comes from hurt.

[@louiscyfear878]

*_I could answer that question instantly_* ✍🏿Ask a Debate Bro to talk about incels & self deletion by cop. ✍🏿Then ask him to talk about BLK male self deletion by cop. Watch him 🏃‍♂️ 🏃‍♀️ away from the topic he cant monetize.

[@JBlazingit]

13:00 I really don't want to disparage the caller but like I heard this basically this exact example used against black people. A lot of school where I am from require community service hours. I just removed brush for gravestones for like 4 years. So the leader of this said that they only really take students from [White] schools and no one from [Black] schools, why? because they would not seem as committed and were slacking. It just doesn't feel like that enough, you know.

[@lilbill2991]

Vaush got wooshed here

[@Putri-iu4bc]

What i dont like about the 'stay in your lane' thing is that, if people not belonging to x minority group are all excluded from having an input or from participating at all, you are cutting off a vital point of helping said ppl. Like no social movement was won (or had much progress) insularly; we all need allies who are willing and able to speak up.

[@tmsphere]

Allyship is bad, if some org only allows you to approach it ”as an ally” run for the exit.

[@tankiebot704]

you proved our point, you people seek to dominate and control other communities. you need lead others.

[@charliekahn4205]

@@tankiebot704 ideology doesn't need leaders. It needs volunteers.

[@tmsphere]

@@tankiebot704 go away whyte boyy

[@tankiebot704]

@@charliekahn4205 movements have leaders

[@charliekahn4205]

@@tankiebot704 And this particular movement is extremely opposed to having leaders

[@micahatkins5286]

Yeah, but no. Every time this topic come up, the more he loses me. Vaush needs to have this discussion with a large group of black people (preferably activists) in order to gain better insight. More black perspectives are needed. Let them explain the possible meanings behind such a statement. But, he doesn’t do things like that. At least, not that I’m aware of. That’s a problem …. even for those who act as allies. Challenging individual tweets & various comments, isn’t the best way to approach this issue. In fact, it’s kind of irresponsible. I like the dude but, …..Vaush is not an expert on this topic. Sorry

[@Metonymy1979]

It's called mansplaining. It's about talking about a subject with confidence without knowing what is experienced to someone with actual experience.

[@charliekahn4205]

In 2022, people have started calling it other things, because claiming that only men do it is an essentialist argument that repels people.

[@Metonymy1979]

@@charliekahn4205 But, as you can see, I used it as a general. Just like "Karen" is also used for men. But, please tell me the other term so I can decide if it's more fitting.

[@charliekahn4205]

@@Metonymy1979 there isn't usually a verb replacement, but "Dunning-Kruger" is often used to refer to it.

[@Metonymy1979]

@@charliekahn4205 In 2022, the name Karen is used as a verb. Oh the irony.

[@wesleyshort3351]

I love that the left can’t accept help without finding problems this is perfect 👍

[@Tacklepig]

Honestly, I think this idea of "but it's less bad" is really harmful. Less bad is still bad. We shouldn't do bad things. That's where the conversation should end.

[@charliekahn4205]

The problem is that all the things we can do right now are varying degrees of bad, and the only good thing takes too much time, resources, and people, and we have to do one of those things or the result is even worse.