How Piracy Works In Star Citizen & Why You're Always At Risk (ft. Avenger__One)

Star Citizen is a game built around risk, choice, and consequence. Your preparation and knowledge will help you avoid gameplay you don’t want, and for many that’s PvP. Today I’ll be discussing with KZbinr and streamer @Avenger__One the inherent risks of Star Citizen, how you can avoid being attacked by pirates, and how the game will allow you to limit the gameplay you want to avoid.
Today’s Guests:
Avenger__One
KZbin: / @avenger__one
Twitch: / avenger__one
ToC:
00:00 Introductions
04:30 What Is Piracy?
12:00 Can The Game Protect Players?
16:00 Piracy Scenarios
30:30 Escorts, Turrets, & The Major Piracy Problem
45:00 Will Player Security Offer Fun Gameplay?
53:00 Risk & Reward
01:03:00 Changing The Meta
Audio Podcast: podcasters.spotify.com/pod/sh...
Video Podcast: • Launch Sequence Podcas...
Support The Pod:
Patreon: / spacetomato
Paypal: paypal.me/SpaceTomatoPays?loc...
Giveaway: www.spacetomatogaming.com/giv...
Gaming Community: / discord
Star Citizen Organization/Guild: gii.spacetomatogaming.com/
Start a Star Citizen account with 5000 extra credits in your pocket with the link: jointomato.com/
#starcitizen #spacetomato #starcitizenpiracy

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

Check out our talk with Farrister about what Piracy is, and how it relates to griefing: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3Wxfqh6eNeBjcU

[@Farrister]

Over a year ago now, how time flies!

[@cooler575]

No matter your or anyone's excuse, piracy is morally WRONG -> be it in real life or in game! The only way that i would see piracy "ok"....when doing it to NPC's. Human cargo runners could always be those special cases where you let one go every now and then. A real life murderer / pirate has no problems to murder / pirate other people (real people) in game...but why should WE be ok with something like this? Doing something morally wrong to a person in real life or ingame....its still morally wrong and still....."WRONG". Stealing in game is still "STEALING". Just cuz you have the option to do it, does not give you the right to do it (same in real life -> where would we be today if this kind of thinking was the norm?). In regards to "alt accounts" -> let us see ingame the time played with that account.... and "smurf" accounts should be a BIG red flag for everyone! I would only trust (more - not fully) people with actual activity and good standings then an account with no activity and no rep! At the end of the day, if everyone pirates and i cant play the game...i would turn pirate just to pirate ESPECIALLY the pirates! I want to see a game with only pirates....how fun would that be ? (no more miners, salvagers,etc). Boring right ? 😕

[@cooler575]

sorry for the 2nd reply here...but in all honesty...a way to combat piracy is...SELFDESTRUCT! Its a risk of losing a LIFE (you get recloned) but make it more "REALISTIC"! Make most of the cargo actually self destruct and whatever stays, make it fly in all directions like it would be in space. OR, make cargo be dropaable in space but have it keep flying. Give us the option to make it as HARD AS POSSIBLE to recover cargo to FORCE pirates as much as possible to try and AVOID killing you! You dont want to kill the gees laying the golden eggs, you just want some eggs to get richer but also have eggs hatch to keep the golden egg laying geese breed going. (The Geese will die eventually so you have to think further in the future ;) )

[@cooler575]

In regards to forcing pirates as much as possible to NOT attack/kill the ship -> this could still happen....imagine attacking a fleet of 5 big ships with no security and all full of gold. Pirates could destroy one to give the fleet owner reason / force to decide to pay protection / a fee to pass trough! Also in Star Wars for example, all of the pirates would actually rather try to sneak and board you and steal the cargo! Only the imperials just kill you cuz they dont care much for your resources. My point is, cargo should be almost non existent if a ship blows up..of course...some cargo is just so strong / durable that an explosion would just not phase it :D

[@cooler575]

its funny, Avenger keeps on trying to shove the responsibility on the player... aint this real life behavior ? dont forget, your excuse is that this is a game? why would 90% of players be responsible? tell me ONE game where 90% of players are responsible....tell me with at least 30%....cuz there is NOT! its a GAME! You either commit to realistic behavior (as it is now in game with current safe zones being the exception) or game behavior (which would mean full god mode safe zones without pvp).

[@Max_Flashheart]

Last night I was ambushed by a player in a Arrow and I was in my Cutlass Black, it was a good but long fight but eventually I was spinning and soft deathed. But I managed to get out my seat and equip my railgun as I jumped out the Cutlass side door. Fire railfun rounds at the arrow as I was falling towards Yela. It felt amazing and I loved it. The fall did kill me lol

[@RobsonP6LRFS9]

Well i would altF4 not to lose my railgun this easy🥲

[@billywashere6965]

@@RobsonP6LRFS9 Thanks to PES, though, his body would stay, which is pretty cool. So he could very easily go back and find his gear.

[@RobsonP6LRFS9]

​@@billywashere6965 It doesn't always work. Sometimes your body is kind of sent to the "limbo" and you cant reach it anymore, you can get a 3k error while trying to reach it, or the guy who killed you can find your body and loot it..

[@Max_Flashheart]

@@RobsonP6LRFS9 I have like 6 or 7 of them at various stations and they spawn enough when I do bunkers to keep that number. the experience was worth it. But I wished ai recorded it so have setup the keybind to snapshot the last 10min

[@syler5565]

So when Avenger says there is 2+ mil of profit and pay your security force, this is completely false. You might have 200k profit or less. Most likely less. If you have to hire people to protect you in the current game environment, then you make zero profit. This is why no one flies with security escorts. This is why this is not really a current 'in-game' option. It needs a huge balance pass. Make things that are worth paying out a security force. Right now, there is only an incentive for people to pirate and not to protect.

[@hakon1027]

He talks about 2+ mil worth of cargo, not profit. (he just made a mistake in one sentence). Profit with 2+ mil Gold/Beryl cargo is 400k+ . Which is still a lot of money for one run! Jumptown just destroyed the sense for money in the game, this is why i don't like this event. Usually, if you make 400k profit you could and should hire an escort/scout for 100k. And yes, for 100k players will do escort missions with you. Most traders are just to lazy or to greedy to do that. They would rather risk losing everything than give away a piece of their profits. He also agreed, that the profit margins overall are to little for such high risk routes. He said, that we need up to 50% profit margins for traders to midigate the risk, we have around 20% at the moment for Gold/Beryl .

[@syler5565]

@hakon1027 This is still incorrect. You get about 250k or less per run of Beryl in a C2. Based on this, any bounty hunting will easily outperform doing cargo if you take a loss or pay for protection. It's simply not worth it or incentive to get security. There is not enough balance, and it's not good to pretend there is or blame an event.

[@ThomasD66]

@@hakon1027 One escort/scout isn't going to be effective at much. The quantum interdiction craft will still target the cargo ship while the other piratess focus on quickly destroying the escort. If N number of ships is what it takes to take a C2 then all an escort does is make the pirates need N+1 ships. Rather than a C2 hiring a gladius or two it would probably be better for three Connie Taurus to run as a convoy and agree to share in the gains/losses.

[@hakon1027]

@@ThomasD66 As Defender your only target schould be the interdiction craft. If you go in Combat with the other Pirates, you already lost. Lets wait and See what the flight Model change brings. But your strat sounds also a like a viable Option.

[@ThomasD66]

@@hakon1027 But that's just it. Any escort focused on the interdiction ship is going to be easy pickings for the other pirates. It is a pure numbers game, and once the pirates are attacking you can be sure they know the numbers are against you.

[@Max_Flashheart]

Alert the local authorities should be an option and alert the nearby private protection job board

[@Ash_Rackham]

It should definitely be an option, in the mobi-glass we already have medical beacons, combat assist beacons, and transport beacons. a distress beacon seems like the next logical one to implement. but there should be both a lawful and unlawful version, one calls to fellow outlaws and one contacts local law enforcement.

[@Derzull2468]

@@Ash_Rackham Contact to outlaws doesn't make sense, they don't have the infrastructure in game (outlaw relays don't make sense to me) and they are already with the upper hand since they most likely are a sizeable group on Discord to begin with.

[@TalosEscanor]

Piracy without safe zone for cargo, it's just griefing in a loop for merchants right now. Deal with it and wait for a real update with a safe solar system and good AI police and sanction.

[@cmdrls212]

The problem is there is no way to hire protection in game that is efficient and rated. CIG basically created a problem without offering a solution...which is not new. Remember ballistics buff without armor. This is so typical

[@974pilou]

yes

[@974pilou]

you can place an escort beacon but it doesnt really work

[@SkySharkX2]

also trade profits are so bad that you won't be hiring any loyal protection and still making any money on the trade run.

[@cmdrls212]

@@SkySharkX2 correct. the economy in SC is totally static. Tony Z clearly failed and will never deliver.

[@CrispyMuffin2]

Plus the fact that doubling claim times just makes an already hard time for vulnerable players EVEN HARDER with zero solutions That is what made me take a 5+ month break from the game. Too hard to do anything with anything less than 3 people with you, and even if you win, the pirates will have 8 other ships on standby, while you're stuck with your 1 or 2. Claim times dont mean shit to them, it just makes it harder for the rest of us

[@TheIceJester]

LOL I've been playing for 7 years and I almost never come across pirates. There is a big difference between reality and what pirates think and say! :)

[@joeendel3614]

Piracy has no risk at the moment. Increasing that would make pirates less bold

[@JollygreenFullSteam]

No risk? Uh, have you been to Klescher this patch with these punishment timers being longer than an entire day? Also, piracy requires a lot of patience as you can either be hunting or sitting for an hour with zero activity.

[@joeendel3614]

@@JollygreenFullSteam one day real time. So go to work and next day your good to go again. Which doesnt mean the timers should go up because we all want to play and I think piracy belongs there too. But maybe pirates should get a fine or something so they also feel a lasting pain (opposing a time in prison which could be not really a problem if had to go to work anyway) Bottom line tension increases for all of there is something to lose too.

[@hephaestion12]

No one has any risk with no money sinks.... And now duping rampant :(

[@vorpalrobot]

​@@joeendel3614so a bad piracy session will waste a day, and a bad hauling session will set you back a day's earnings...

[@2012YoutubeWasBetter]

No risk? My friend, have you not heard of a crimestat or prison?

[@Hopdvil]

Best way is join an org. We have a security wing that usually has a few players available if needed. Doesn’t take much to tie up the pirates and let you get away.

[@Tom--Ace]

Orgs will own whole systems at this rate because cig can't even get the basics right

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

​@@Tom--Ace non sequitur

[@flirty_thirty]

Being pirated is always a part of the gameplay. What hurts the game is the people who just blow you up without even attempting to pirate. Twice now I've been destroyed salvaging, both times was some hot shot shit talker in global. Thats the stuff that ruins the gameplay for me. I know it happens but what was the point? I lost nothing but time, and they got nothing out of it....

[@Vitonezz]

Well, avoiding pirates is easy, avoiding the 30k´s is difficult.

[@ThomasD66]

A suggestion for anyone who finds themselves losing to pirates: Self destruct then announce your location in chat. Maybe some of those people who currently enjoy waiting to do medical rescues will swing by and harass the pirates while they try to round up what is left of your cargo. A couple ships jousting back and forth though them as they try to futz with their multi tools may not kill them but it will annoy them to no end. And certainly slow them down. Because, just like everyone else, when profitability vs. time falls low enough they too will go do something else. Unless "profit" is really just an excuse for what is really an exercise in griefing.

[@Tom--Ace]

Why can't traders just self destruct their cargo? It's absolute bs that cig's idea of valuable gameplay changes is to stop what traders can do while making things easy for pirates. Putting explosives on cargo is trivial, it should be possible to do ingame and even to booby trap your ship. Destroying a ship should in no way leave most of the cargo intact, if any Certain types of cargo should always be destroyed and only salvage remain

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

​@@Tom--Acebecause the game isnt about fragile space dads

[@Flakey86]

The profit on cargo runs is not 2.5M, 2.5M is the total value, the profit is only going to be about 1/5th of that value, split it 5 ways, and boom. Everyone is making less money than doing literally anything else in the game. Hurray. Unfortunately, in the current meta, the correct move is actually to run cargo solo. As long as you aren't losing more than one in five loads, you are making money. The average cost of hiring escorts is not currently worth the reduction in profitability.

[@ThomasD66]

And don't forget to mention the wait times involved in trying to get a full load of cargo. the day I can pull up to an outpost and immediately get a full load of gold is they day when hiring escorts might be considered.

[@kennethjensen730]

Escort for what 🤣 there's 0 pirates its 100 man servers.

[@Flakey86]

@@kennethjensen730 I'm so confused by your comment. Did you not watch the video? The whole discussion is about this topic.

[@kennethjensen730]

@@Flakey86 No, i was just here to hate on the game.

[@Flakey86]

@@kennethjensen730 Lol, fair enough. There actually has been quite a bit of piracy since the cargo refactor and cargo economy update with 3.19, but as long as you stay away from Microtech, its pretty safe.

[@Redclaw340]

Why is no one talking about. Cargo insurance...this would decrease risk on cargo hauling. Immensely.

[@ThomasD66]

Currently all cargo insurance would do is create an "insurance fraud" game loop where cargo haulers repeatedly let themselves be "pirated" by their own friends.

[@MrSlvr2000]

I feel like CIG is in conflict with if they are straight going to make this a hardcore sim or trying to balance between hardcore sim and casual game. As time goes on SC becomes increasingly harder to play as an after work evening game and more a game of needing a 4-5 hour play session.

[@Derzull2468]

It has always and will always be a space sim. If you want short sessions, you pick up a mission and do that. The more advanced stuff will always require more time, more people, more planning. That's perfectly normal and a good thing.

[@TastyChickenLegs]

I really enjoyed this topic and podcast. So much insight into both sides of the coin. I love the fact we have pirates even though I don’t participate in those activities. Definitely breathes life and excitement into the game. Thank you for taking the time to share this talk.

[@Cursethedawn]

I would never disclose my position in global chat. If you ask if there are any pirates in my area, there soon will be.

[@lordsheogorath3377]

I ask but I'm in a vanguard and have 2 arrows flying escort.

[@donaldengel4128]

34:30 How did a C2 full of gold "make 2.8 mil" by getting away? That math don't math. Even at the cheapest buy price a full load of gold cost him ~4 million. It sells at the highest buyer for 5.2 million. The most the cargo hauler possibly "made" on a load was 1.2 million (before paying the help). While risking 4 million of his money... He just didn't "lose 5.2 million" by getting away.

[@keydet2014]

Think you’re missing the point man, the number here don’t matter a whole hell of a lot

[@jasonmaxwell9762]

Yes and 1.2 million is hours of game play for most professions in the game. It's considered a lot of money for 20mins worth of work. Sitting at a station filling and making one drop off. So the risk is substantially high. Anyone sitting in a C2 filling it with gold with out backup or help is just asking for it.

[@garywilburn7384]

in eve online - i bring orca's into low sec. here, its EASY to not get caught, no need to run 4 accounts. if you have to use a BAT SIGNAL to call reinforcments - they get 100% of the profit for saving your ass, and You get to NOT BE negative 5mil to 500mil

[@leslieviljoen]

@@jasonmaxwell9762 yup, whether you lose it to pirates or (more likely) some bug, it's unwise to bet your entire savings on a single cargo run.

[@reamoinmcdonachadh9519]

Just as Orgs get involved in Piracy, so will Orgs get involved in Anti Piracy. As the game seems to emphasize group (as in Team Play, Org play) play over solo, I can see Trade also being organized into the 'Truckers' who haul, and the Escorts who protect the Cargo. Notice I said protect the Cargo and not the Hauler. So Orgs dedicated to Hauling and Trade. In fact I can see Orgs for every fekking thing in the game. And on a personal level, that pisses me off, as it leaves no room, or very little room for the solo player. Even Bounty Hunting, which on the face of it is ideally suited to the 'Lone Wolf' will also come to have Orgs, Groups and Teams dedicated to that profession, as it already has begun to do so with every other profession/trade in the game. But I can see CIG'S point, in that (insofar as the 'Verse is concerned) Space is populated by people who work together even when they are in opposing sides for the survival of the whole, Space is big, but also merciless in it's indifference to us. And no achievement is done in isolation.

[@mooonman454]

The game doesnt currently lean towards anti-piracy tactics.

[@kennethjensen730]

There is No piracy now.. Its 100 man server in a solar system lol

[@garywilburn7384]

in eve online - i bring orca's into low sec. here, its EASY to not get caught, no need to run 4 accounts. if you have to use a BAT SIGNAL to call reinforcments - they get 100% of the profit for saving your ass, and You get to NOT BE negative 5mil to 500mil but you are right. its still slightly leaning.

[@linkmasterms]

I had more than 20 drug-run Jumptown-Brios breaker, alone in my cutlass. All where successfull. It is too boring. Now i get crimestat 3 and makes ist again because it becomes boring without pirates. Now iam hoping at least for bountyhunter whose hunting me.

[@DevilbyMoonlight]

Also you shouldnt get a crimestat for killing people that have destroyed your ship.. even when its parked up and your not in it at the time... even if its more than 1 bad guys that fancies their chances on foot.. the way it is at the moment you end up with long jail time for dealing out righteous retribution in such situations

[@garywilburn7384]

100% agreed. and in your ship in a hangar, you should be allowed your gun

[@reynardtv1]

Here are my two cents, Cargo Haling is not yet a game loop and hailers need to understand this. Hauling currently is High risk game strategy and the current roots are set and is high risk and will always be there (High value cargo = High risk i.e. smo 18 will always be there and people will always be camping it). When cargo missions come online, and it does not sound like it is that far out a lot will change but what A1 is saying is good practice and will always be key. Cargo missions will be where smaller haulers come into play moving stuff from random locations too random locations but if you want to make 2mil in a run the option will be there. With salvaging we see the first game loop that rewards high risk game play with "in the wake of disaster" even though currently if you are in a org it is a great way to make a lot of money. CIG needs to define the single player experience and make it more difficult for solo players to make these ridiculous margins. (And if you look at mission descriptions you can kind of, see where they want the game play to be, it should be nearly impossible for a single player to do a 100k bunker according to the mission description) Currently CIG is defining piracy game play just like what they are doing for mining and salvaging, we can even throw in combat with master modes now coming to the verse in a limited form. We are playing an evolving game and base lines need to be established to create completed loops,

[@nightclock7140]

Interdiction counter “kinda like flairs”, once attacked bounty contracts are rendered “you would need to select or pay for option while buying cargo” You can hire people indirectly but this will only be suitable to the hull C due to profit margins. Have expensive hardware installed that hides cargo from scanners Just a few ideas

[@GoblinGhouly]

Gotta take a shot everytime avenger says “right” 🤣

[@ghironsingh]

Box missions are SO BROKEN in 3.19. I just started playing last few weekends, and I’ve been trying to stick to box missions. Between 50% of them simply glitching out at the very end of the mission, and all the risks of crashes you face with the alpha build, it’s nearly impossible. I never take missions with more than two deliveries now because too much can go wrong in the interim, and destroy the mission. I’m making like 5k/hr on average running boxes. So hearing you say, 500k for one cargo run sounds absolutely INSANE to me. It’s beginning to seem to me like bounties are the only realistic way to actually make money in the current aUEC build.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Its been that way for ages It sucks, but we know they have all the cool bits done, and will be coming in over the next 12 months But its going to be a drought until Citizencon

[@roughnek201]

ROC mining is an okay way to generate credits. Rent a Drake Cutlass and a ROC and you'll have millions in a couple of days.

[@garywilburn7384]

stop doing box missions

[@feedmyaddiction2078]

Piracy will change and evolve when more law enforcement in higher security space is established.

[@wertacus]

I think "figuring it out" is the best part of the game. Talking to players, figuring out where bad stuff happens. When i first started playing, i heard about grimhex and it was terrifying to me(now i live there). Ive still never been to a comm array or spk because im not brave enough and not knowing is half the fun

[@blackmamba___]

I remembered when 3.18 was about to release, how uneasy some players felt. Fast forward to now and those same players realize they were freaking out about nothing. Piracy does happen, but its also not like anyone is getting pirated on the daily.

[@BoTalksStarCitizen]

Eve was a great time. Joined way back in 2006 with about a dozen friends. We had way too much fun with that game. Especially the pvp.

[@BoTalksStarCitizen]

As a miner, you never talk about it in global, you watch it, but never talk, don’t make yourself a target. Just make your run. 18:30

[@Darktiger01]

Was going to do Beryl run with a c2 spotted a cutlass blue on my way down and quickly changed route

[@ThomasD66]

Been meaning to spend some time taking out my C2, to find a place with pirates staking it out, then fly down and load up with a full cargo of waste...

[@Darktiger01]

@@ThomasD66 Well lets hope they dont scan it and waste their time

[@jasonmaxwell9762]

Smart move

[@mattsully5332]

I think the line is fairly clear. If you take something from someone, it's piracy. If you take nothing from them, it's griefing. Particularly when using different classes of ship. E.G. if you are in a fighter, and they are in a cargo hauler, or miner. If in the same class of ship, light fighter vs light fighter, it's pvp. There's a bit of grey area around getting ONLY components from someone in a cargo hauler, and I lean towards calling that griefing, but I do more hauling than ship fighting. LOL at him fighting a piracy action against his dog in the middle of the talk 😂

[@garywilburn7384]

wrong its always pvp, im outclassing you in a chatbox... this is pvp

[@DennisMangual]

I absolutely loved this podcast/episode. It was so helpful especially for someone like me who just does cargo and sometimes needs help with getting escorts or what to do in general. Would love to see more content like this that talks about different things to look for what you doing certain situations. 👍🏻

[@jasonmaxwell9762]

Here is another tip. I promise you that if AV1s crew runs cargo they never get robbed. My crew runs cargo and has never been robbed. You want to know why? Because our crews rob people. So we understand how not to get robbed. We understand the tricks we use to rob others. So we are all paranoid that somebody may do it to us. For example when we are using a Carrack for gold. We never open the front door. We fly the Pisces out of the hangar. You know why? Because we ourselves have just walked up some guys ramp who just opens the front door buying gold and have just taken their entire ship. So we know not to do this ourselves. The best way to beat your enemies is to understand them. Because of ways we have gotten people. We say to ourselves dont do this or dont do that. Because we remember the time we got another player that way ourselves. One of the best way to learn how to avoid piartes is to become one yourself. This way you get a deep understanding how it works and I promise you. You will never get jacked again. Like I said the best pirate orgs dont get robbed when they run cargo. You need to have the same prowess and thinking that the people hunting you have. AV1 is always trying to explain this and help people out so you understand how we think. Need to understand your opposition. Cargo is a PVP profession. Make no mistake about this. That is the risk for it paying the most money.

[@TheGavric]

EVE is where griefers go to thrive. That's why the whole game is, "pirates, piratey pirates". They're not pirates. Too many EVE players are sadistic gankers, indulging in repressed psychopathic tendencies. Unless the developers at CIG have specifically stated they are encouraging piracy, Avenger's philosophy is short-sighted. CIG is developing a game with the deepest immersion possible and the broadest freedoms. They're trying to balance it so we can all play in the same universe and not have a dominant play style. Pyro is the next system to be brought into the game. Pyro is gritty and lawless. Piracy is one of the few practicable gameplay options right now. Don't mistake the fledgling state of the game as an encouragement for piracy. That's just what we have right now. The game is not Star Pirates. I love how everyone that loves to participate in piracy tries to justify the ethics of their choices. They make it the trader's fault that they have chosen to engage in anti-social behavior. Other players should get good, hire escorts, take precautions, or some such nonsense. Why does your gameplay style automatically trump someone else's? This game has a heavy time commitment. If I only get an hour of down time after a 12 hour day, and I want to scrape a hull to relax, why is your joy in pirating more important than my need to peacefully salvage a ship with the precious time I have? It's not a matter of whether or not the game allows for it or it's just a part of gameplay. You are actively choosing to impose your gameplay choices on others and blaming them for it when they call you out. Then there's the gang mentality. Not everyone who plays has available Org mates or a group of friends they can rely on for assistance. My friends don't play Star Citizen, despite my best efforts. Getting into the game with Org mates is often difficult due to Time Zone differences and schedules. I play solo because that's my circumstance. Pirates often show up in numbers. Aditionally, a lot of us don't have millions of aUEC to pay random players on the server to come save us. Maybe when the Quanta start flying, pirates will have more targets to prey upon and let the rest of us play in peace. I hope Avenger is wrong about piracy becoming the alure of Star Citizen. This game should never develop the kind of culture that exists in EVE. Unfortunately, there are too many people out there that share Avenger's philosophy. Thankfully there are more players happily enjoying the less sadistic aspects of the game than there are griefers and pirates; right now. Oh, and Avenger...sh***y behavior is the definition of griefing.

[@adawg3032]

I was flying my C2, doing my trade route. Just picked up 300 gold from Shubin 18 on MT, quite a nice haul. I take off excited to go sell it, and i hit 11km altitude, and my QT drive wont work.. What gives?? Then i notice im being shot at.. So i take my C2 and decouple it and strafe upwards and backwards and start shooting at the cutlass blue, which is jamming my QT drive.. A blue ship with a red sphere around it, as im shooting the pirate flying the ship maybe didnt expect this. My gimbaled M6A lasers chip away at its shields, and eventually i take his shields out. I keep shooting and his friend shows up, i am aiming at the cutlass blues engine trying to blow it up so i can escape, now his friend with some kind of fighter (didnt get a good look at it) is pummeling my shield. Eventually i see it, the cutlass loses a main engine, and as i boost away waiting for my QT marker to turn from red to blue, i type in chat: "LOOOOOL 2v1 i blew the cutty blues engine up with my C2 LOOOOL" then i QT drive away. The pirate then said that i was "desyncing all over the place" and accused me of having "dial up internet"... Either way it was so fun. I will fight back always, come and try and take it but you better take me out because ill shoot whatever i got to shoot with until either im gone or your gone.

[@Cameron_the_Robot]

Another far away dream that all sounds good and looks good on paper, but is a fantasy years away from ever actually being a "thing". Random pvp in Star Citizen said no one ever.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

I love when people pretend their feelings are facts, otherwise known as assuming Its like my favourite thing 😂

[@grizzleebair]

Great video. It is great to see both sides have similar opinions to my friends and I. I am not going to go into any detail, as you guys have done a great job, but the economy discussion is a big one we often talk about.

[@ThomasD66]

Anti radar missiles are very much a real thing. The idea that, in a world as modern as that of SC there would not be anti-quantum interdiction missies seems rather silly.

[@user-iu6sd8su3e]

Just because it sells for 2.4 mil doesn’t mean it’s 2.4 mil profit for the trader

[@11907fjp]

do you have a link to the spreadsheets which show how to find the settlements?

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

Check out Verseguide.com!

[@518UN4]

Lets be honest, even if traders made 100 % profit they wouldn't hire security. And security would be too bored to even be security because when a pirate hunts for targets he probably will find someone in 1-2 hours but a trader might not get pirated for weeks. There aren't enough pirates to make secuity an interesting gameplay loop. Also as long as all we are fighting over is UEC nobody will really give a shit. Maybe if we had unique components or super rare building materials then people would truly care about their cargo and hire security to protect them but as it is now nothing really matters.

[@GummiSammi]

Being able to call "911" and get UEE navy ships show up might be interesting? and have that trigger a protection contract that pays decently. yeah AIs are jokes but additional targets and missiles flying around does raise the stakes. would make sense if it's only possible in high sec systems. UEE isn't going to come help a distress beacon in Pyro.

[@RobsonP6LRFS9]

Pirace is what keeps me playing SC. whether as a pirate or cargo hauling, I like the sense of imminent threat.

[@alexeizaraiov]

exactly

[@austinismorbid4182]

Same

[@jasonmaxwell9762]

Yeah unfortunately they put estrogen in the water or something and too many people today just don't get it.

[@Spike.SpiegeI]

What a great conversation! We're just starting down the road of physicalized cargo and how piracy is going to affect it. I agree with both of them in some ways. With A1, over time more of the game loops are going to require multi crew gameplay (scouts and security) and I think it makes sense. I love A1 analogy that some of these other places to buy high value goods need to be treated like JT. Agree with Space Tomato that we also need more tools to be proactive against pirates. People should not be flying around solo in a giant ship like a C2 thinking they can just pick up millions of auec worth of cargo and sell without hassle. If people want payloads like that it should require multi crew gameplay for safety OR it should be risky if you want to attempt it solo. People have gotten comfortable doing these runs but it's unrealistic. I'm actually excited to have a level of danger around the verse and more opportunities for multi crew gameplay. They do have to re-visit how hauling works on smaller ships. If you're hauling millions it's easy enough to pay some escorts a bit to help out. On a smaller ship it's harder to justify and CIG needs to think on how to make that more balanced.

[@Overallghost]

You can definitely feel the eve online in him. The fact that eve doesn't hold you hand at all.

[@51ghardy]

Plus, what is to stop escorts from turning on the cargo ship? Friendship and org mates, sure. Randos are a recipe for a double cross. Also, the example Space Tomato gave IS griefing. And YES, griefing is shitty behavior.

[@Whippets]

Nothing against piracy, but it's imbalanced right now and the universe is still small, so the Pirates only have a few options available to them, just like the traders ... but sure, all this will probably change.

[@garywilburn7384]

yep. we need more space

[@aaronhunyady]

So if you're in a freelancer or taurus, as soon as you warp to your destination, set a getaway jump and jump as soon as something seems off. That's your best bet of surviving pirates.

[@roughnek201]

That's a good idea.

[@Marlax-101]

what im hearing is security force secures planet zone, you pay a fee to travel through and you get protection until you leave.

[@Spidder81]

As soon as you leave a main station you auto agreed to the terms and conditions that anything can happen. I do a lot of cargo runs and havent been pirated once, which sucks cos i want to get pirated and rp the situation etc. My cargo runs are eventless XD Never get why people complain about getting killed (outside of griefing) when they chose to play a game that has pvp in it. The verse can be a dangerous place and you pressed the play button

[@VoidyVids]

Yea man, when it comes to "figuring stuff out" in the game, the developers will only carry new players so far in terms of tutorialisation. Look at something completely different, like Diablo 4. The game teaches you how to spend skill points and build your character, it doesn't tell you what the best build is to tackle the hardest content in the game. Thats up to us to figure out ourselves (and these days it gets plastered all over the internet, its hard to miss). Epic discussion, thanks for this one Mr Tomato and Mr Avenger. PS: Boarding gameplay in Star Citizen is the absolutely most fun in gaming, so glad Avenger shares this sentiment.

[@johnboyd9713]

The issue is that fighters can't be beat by any ship with a cargo hold at equal skill. Can't even threaten em. A fully crewed A2, even a full crewed HH doesn't threaten a light fighter, let alone multiple fighters. Until turrets are fixed and threatening, this is a problem. Escorts are always better, but I'd like both. But not every ship should be able to defend itself alone. A Hull series is just gonna need an escort. But a fully crewed Andromeda should at least give one or two fighters pause before engaging. A hammerhead might not have much cargo, but a few light fighters should never threaten one.

[@Psydefex]

people need to understand you don't have to 'pay' escorts.. if you have any friends at all in this game, just split all the costs and profits of a trading run and have people in fighters scouting ahead of you for pirates.. you don't have to kill all of them, you just need to pressure the qed ship long enough to allow your hauler to get away. its not that complicated

[@garywilburn7384]

they dont have a clue

[@Richard_deVries]

Currently nothing in SC has any meaning. Eventually when the game as a functional economy and a functional law and bounty system the game will require balance. The problem with piracy when it is lucrative and prevalent is that, if there are many/more pirates then traders and miners etc, and piracy has to litte consequence and drawback there will only be pirates and no traders, no traders no fun for pirates. If a trader repeatedly gets pirated and does not make profit, they will stop trading. or relocate. thus no fun for pirate. If I was a trader, and I have done similar in other games. and I do 20 runs and get pirated once then I would not care, either get away if possible or stop dump cargo and move on. If the profit margin is in the + then its all good. if folks blow you up without the option to either pay or drop cargo then its poor piracy. Shooting an empty ship with no possibility of profit, that is not piracy, you could call it banditry if you dont want to call it griefing. IMO griefing is repeated or un-competative pvp activity that does not have any profitable activity for the person doing the attacking. If you want to Kill sum folks, then bounty hunting is your jam. if you want to take stuff, piracy is your jam. but without proper balance and a fair shot at profit for all parties that non-profitible option will not have players doing the activity in the end.

[@ro0140]

The problems we have now in Alpha will be of the past when the game comes out. More pirates in-system wil generate more NPC protection and better Mission rewards. Because more pirates wil raise prices of commodities and it will generate more anti pirate/bounty missions with better rewards. Also players can make missions for other players to escort / protect ships / or even put up bounties on players and yes reputation will be a thing in game so we just have to wait for those game mechanics to come in.

[@Overallghost]

The small scale can be sold when things like station to surface trading is a thing

[@theatfshotmydog8224]

In my opinion, the bigger the ship, the easier it should be to interdict, while the smaller the ship, the harder it should be to interdict. Like have the interdiction range for a Hull C be twice or three times the size of the interdiction range of a Freelancer or Hull A, this would balance out the risk/profit margins,

[@AMartin1600]

The reason I don’t agree with “A”is that he likes to bully players doing non-combat activities but then shouts complains and is emotionally hurt (woods videos) that someone does to him the same thing he does to peaceful players.

[@linkmasterms]

This all is great in SC. Everyhing you can fail. If you are pirate, you can be shotand fail. If you are trader with eskort you can shot and fail. You have no warranty, when you left your hangar that your "gameplay- plan" will successuful. This is what SC makes so good. I hope we have soon more player with Servermeshing and than more of all. More pirates, more eskort beacon, more teamplay, more multicrew.

[@tomsmarkovs1946]

I think 100-150k aUEC for a medium grind feels good. . 200-250k for an optimal/ hard grind. 50k/h would be fine for starting up low rep missions, FPS mining/ FPS salvaging etc. More then 250k should involve #1high risk PvE (when there is punishment for death, like loosing all components, high claim cost or even losing every ship except the starter for a day or 2. #2 PvP missions like JT and Ghost Hollow #3 Group/ Org activities like Hauling high amount of cargo with escorts or huge mining operataions #4 Organized Piracy

[@IMONSTER13]

I think I’d like to see more piracy on the back side of the hauling. I see the point to maximize your chances to snag them right out the gate as they load up. But it would be cool to see people trying to rip the ships out of quantum.

[@Psydefex]

it takes a long time to get into position to snare someone at the arrival point. if your crew spots someone loading beryl, its a very slim chance your mantis will have time to get into position to snare. thats why most people just dampen as theyre leaving the pad. we prefer pulling ships out of quantum, since you don't have to pull the target into space to avoid them crashing into the ground and hard deathing, but most times it just isn't feasible

[@Tom--Ace]

Alternate accounts and a second pc should be a nice way of torpedoing pirates to let your main account get away

[@Qwarzz]

If someone manages to befriend you and then steals your stuff then there really shouldn't be a game mechanic to stop that. Of course there should be some options to chase them after that. Social engineering was definitely a thing in EVE Online. Back in the day when I was still playing EVE there was a dude who got into a high position in an alliance just to steal their stuff. I assume that must have happened more than once too.

[@Tom--Ace]

Go play eve then. I won't play a shitty eve clone

[@Mace1000S]

The idea of losing your components if you die is fine, but until CIG gets their shit together that idea is BS, I’ve been playing for two hours now, I have 30 K3 times and had to reclaim my spaceship every time, I already lose all my cargo that I’ve just collected. Weapons, armor, Med gear. So if I lost 500 K each time I went to go and do a 60 to 90 K bunker. Well it’s bull, and I get that he is just taking from other. Which means he’s never really losing anything that was his in the first place so it is no big deal. And that salad gameplay is the exact reason why he doesn’t get upset at other players when things don’t go his way. And that’s all fine also. But star citizen is a buggy POS. So until they get the thing fixed, they need to stay off their high horse and not take people ship components. Not pretend to actually have a real game that works.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Thats why its called a testing environment

[@jasonmaxwell9762]

Sounds like you are claiming your ship and causing yourself to lose everything. Because the game 30K recovers now and puts your ship back to your starting station with everything you left on it so you don't lose it anymore. So if you're losing stuff to 30ks it's only your fault for claiming your ship.

[@itviking1651]

Security through obscurity. Smaller cargo = less incentive for pirates as well.

[@frederikveeneman8136]

pvp / piracy is not for me , all i can do is run away if someone comes at me I think a half decent pvper in a aurora will own me in my sentinel in a minute , i have no situation awareness , so i only pve (barely) lol

[@USMCWing556]

they need an interdiction buster either a ship or weapon

[@MrStoffzor]

@56:30 this sounds familiar... Oh yeah thats just how real life works.

[@WarBirdGhost]

I wish I had the Polaris ship already, to run patrol lines or offer escort services in Star Citizen, together with like minded people.

[@KoreyMacGill]

3:20 min in. that's all we needed to hear the answer for people who are upset / want piracy to be different. "there's no risk for pirates" well let's ask this question. why don't we hear about shootings at gun clubs and gun stores? why didn't harry potter's class have mass killings? where 1 armed witch/wizard spelled people down like a lawn mower? it's a skills based game. you want to give pirates risk? BE the risk. that's it. don't like it? hit F1, go to beacons, select escort, hire yourself some help. don't want to put your trust in some rando? join an org and ask for someone to team up with you that's a good pilot. anti-social and want a better experience? starfield is coming out soon, just wait. bored of the repetitive nature of a randomly generated single player game like starfield? you're back to square one. face your fears. embrace failure. it's just a game at the end of the day. arena commander is a great tool to learn to use to get good! "you all just say get good and that's crap" - i know some of you are thinking this. ask yourself WHY we keep saying this. this game is not about catering to a single player experience. WAKE UP

[@tomsmarkovs1946]

Also . . In Stanton Security work 95% of the time should be easy money. You spend 5-10 min of your time for ~20k ( ~ 120k/h ) You could include bonuses for attacks. But it does not have to be fun. . You just follow a guy around. . have a chat and get 20k. What's wrong with that?

[@Vioblight]

Also C2 pilots check around you landing gears before hitting the elevator. My buddy’s snuck on like 3 C2’s that we pirated in like 40minutes lol. A lot of cargo pilots are super lazy. Time to take a few precautions, learn to decouple hog fight, hire security. First month of playing I swore off piracy and was going to be a good player. Then I tried piracy one night and I have never gone back! It’s so fun!!!! In regards to security not having fun, I think it’s a good idea for them to practice dueling getting shields low when waiting, maybe 2 duel and 1 over watches the cargo ship or something.

[@Tom--Ace]

If piracy is fun the game is set up wrong. It should be extremely frustrating to be a pirate

[@Vioblight]

@@Tom--Ace agreed there should be other fun activities to do on top of piracy Piracy is fun but sometimes you sit there for hours not finding prey and that can be a drag. High highs, Low lows

[@reamoinmcdonachadh9519]

My simple definition of Griefing is this: People who take pleasure out of ruining other people's day for the sake of ruining their day are griefers.

[@Crittek]

Boy you’re gonna be mad a lot because that’s not CIGs definition. Watching people scream in general is hilarious.

[@FoRm4t123]

the threat of piracy will make other gameplay possible. scanning for possible threat, paying for protection repairing damage or salvaging the dumb pirate ship who got shot. if you are safe 99% of the time it get boring really fast and does not make people group up instead you get someone playing euro truck simulator in space.

[@nuclearscarab]

One thing that might help is having AI pirates that are fairly easy to deal with, give decent rewards for killing, and are fairly common around high profit stops. This would at least give escorts something to consistently be doing. Also, hauling cargo right now is just plain boring for everyone. Way to much time running around at the sell location, nothing even interesting about flying the ship other than landing.

[@snowfox9461]

28:00 Alt accounts wont help you hid what your going to do after a scan a player with no history will be a bigger red flag then someone with a history of piracy its like that in every game

[@GraffitiTD]

I would like to share possible a rare sentiment, but piracy makes the game better. This is not coming from a pirate but a smuggler and cargo runner. I have seen the same argument in Sea of Thieves and a large portion of the player base misses that taking away PVP sours the long term experience. Kill piracy and the sense of adventure goes with it. The human condition demands adversity to overcome. Cargo running has never been more fun for me. Keeping my eyes open and knowing the risks I am taking enhance my gameplay experience and keep me coming back. The right approach is education. With the proper procedures cargo runners can have a much more rewarding and reliable gameplay loop. We do need some in game work provide better social systems for setting up security and we need to resolve the issues causing haulers to lose all their cargo to a crash or server death. We are headed in the right direction though. Thank you Avenger for taking to time to educate and bring a good name to outlaw gameplay ☺️

[@Robisme]

Wasn't there a space trucking channel that gave up on SC because nothing was happening to him for months?

[@user-nz5gm5vd8p]

I hear all this talk about no help. What's to stop some ace pilots from creating an organization strictly to take out pirates as on call basis for pay? Look in pinned down by a mantis two cuttys. Mind you I don't play star citizen because I have to build a computer but looking at all these tips ahead of time kind of make you think if their is a void players can actually fill it

[@misstressscarlet]

I've understood from day one of playing that SC is intended to be focused on group play, not solo. It was made clear to me that travelling in a group will be safer than running around solo. As things like engineering- wear and tear on parts and living cost come into the game solo players are going to be even more frustrated. I have yet to find friends or an active org to play with and I'm terrible at combat but I still roll my eyes when solo players complain they can't make their easy money. Everything we do right now is testing for CIG and practice for us.

[@ThomasD66]

Dont kid yourself. Do you really think these people are salivating at the "opportunity" to spend 15-30 minutes slinging boxes with a multi-tool? People like A1 want you to group up, not because it will make you safer, but because it will increase their "fun." when each C2 is running with two escorts all that means is that when they go out hunting they will need a couple more in their party.

[@andrewboyer7544]

I don't think Avenger had even a remotely satisfying response to cargo runners getting discouraged. If piracy is bad, people just wont' try to run cargo at all. To pay an escort even half your profit is hard, but some of these pirate groups are 5 or more, so how is anyone supposed to make any money splitting their money 5 ways for security?

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Theres not enough pirates in the game to justify this sentiment, most players have never been pirated

[@andrewboyer7544]

@@Uncanny_Mountain God knows I have. Haha

[@cqc2238]

My problem with piracy is this, it’s always lopsided. Getting caught, killed, jailed is a big nothing burger and there’s not usually a mechanism or economy for anti piracy.

[@GuitarsNAmmo]

If you're making a profit from destroying someone elses ship then you are pirating, if you are just doing it for kicks you are griefing.

[@garywilburn7384]

dead people confirm this less than 1% of the time. now your assuming.

[@Cadia]

Disclaimer: He lied, it's not called "Interdiction, how to use it" :(

[@StarshipCaptainNemo]

I think as soon as the economy is in place to allow HULL-Cs to really haul cargo, then pirates will more likely target those instead of the solo players who just want to experience the verse as space tourists.

[@Bearfight_Live]

Right?

[@eiojn]

you should interview the actual pirate groups who have been knocking this guy, both chaos squad and mongrel squad have done rebuttale to his videos.

[@sinisterj73]

Chaos Squad are some solid guys who work extremely hard at their craft.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Tom's fallen in with the wrong crowd unfortunately. All the whiners and angst lords

[@garywilburn7384]

your reply stated :someone replied to this... /golfclap.

[@jasonmaxwell9762]

Cargo hauling pays a lot because you invite PVP gameplay. It is not a PVE profession. This is what a lot of cargo haulers fail to understand. You don't like PvP do not haul super profitable goods. Cargo haulers going for the most profitable routes make the most money in the game. The risk are the pirates. The risk for pirates is crime. Just like a pirate has to take down comms to commit robbery. If you are a cargo hauler you should be making sure comms are up so you don't get robbed. If your hauler and you think you could just go to the most profitable routes with the comms down alone and not get robbed. Or nobody should be robbing you. You simply don't understand the game. This is your mistake. Cargo hauling is a trade that you must be aware of the risks for the rewards you're going after. You need to be carefully looking around your ship. The risk for pirates is getting a crime stat. The cargo haulers that usually cry about getting robbed. In the end still have the most money if they're constantly doing the most profitable routes. Yes they might have to do four or five runs to make up what they lost. But in the end cargo haulers always have the most money. Because they are making more money than any professions in the game. So it balances out just fine. If there were no pirates cargo haulers would all have over 30-40 million by now and some still do. Even with pirates everywhere.

[@0Metatron]

You can’t expect to be a master at the game off rip. I don’t understand what Tomato is getting at by saying “when you’re a new player how are you supposed to know everything” You’re not!! You’re supposed to play the game and learn it. Combat and piracy especially is super in depth, you not only have to learn ship combat, piracy techniques but also trade routes and behaviours etc to name just a small fraction

[@_lewtz]

I'm with A1. To me, the game isn't just playing the game. It's learning the game. And keeping up with community and info. I want less info. It's like the mini-maps they have been showing... that worries me. Everything A1 said here is 100% correct on all the topics, imho.

[@Psydefex]

also i love how people complain about having to use escorts but then destroy their own argument by saying that most of the time there is no need for escorts. if you're not getting pirated 1 out of every 4 runs, you're not losing money in the long run

[@josephquayle5764]

piracy wouldn't even happen if they introduced cupcake rail guns, instead of the rail gun shooting rails, it should shoot CupCakes. Everyone loves cupcakes and if you shoot 5 or 10 in different directions it would be a distraction for your escape. Heck I know if someone was shooting cupcakes around me and they had 20 million in cargo I'm going for the cupcakes, and I'm sure 99 percent of people are in my shoes.

[@pascalj.5546]

good video , right?

[@Grimshak81]

This "you re always at risk!111" PvP Bro arguemtn is so tiring. YES... you re always at risk. But the main point is 1% or 99" and everything in between. And there is in most places 99%, which isnt what CIG is amining for and that also is not immersive. Its the lack of immersion why "PvE carebears" criticize the actual status. Not that PvP is possible in general. Stop this strawman argument. Its simply not immersiv e that there are so many Pad Rammers around and people who obviously have near to zero repercussions when they are on a I-kill-all-I-can-spot-just-because-I-can "PvP pirates". Immersion is the issue. Not PvP. Besides: AvengerOne is combat logging. So much for his credibility.

[@_lewtz]

"so many pad rammers" Where do you hangout? I have legit SEEN and only ever been pad Rammed... TWICE. I play about 6-7hrs a day, and TWICE does not equal "so many pad rammers"

[@luke5g230]

Really great conversation that you both and hope you have this topic again!

[@purzifal]

its funny, Avenger One has buddies that exploit into ships and call it piracy. its not its griefing

[@jasonmaxwell9762]

Exploit into ships? What do you mean?

[@razeyoshi]

Once Star Citizen has fully loaded Hull-C and larger ships and it takes a while to steal all that cargo, pirate groups are going to fight each other over that Hull-C that was soft killed. Pirates themselves are not safe from other pirates.

[@stormycatmink]

There's two problems with this premise: One; right now there's little risk for pirates themselves in the game. And asking other players to provide that risk for them, so they can have more fun isn't fair. PvEers aren't there to be the game for the PvPers to hunt. And two; this is all taken from the perspective of the game's goals to provide things for pirates to do so they can have fun, but it's ignoring the perspective of those who do not want to engage in PvP at all, and how the game will provide fun for them, too. This isn't Star Pirates. It's Star Citizen. It's a game for everyone to enjoy, even those people who do not want to be pirated. Why should they be required to have everything they need to mine or transport stuff, AND also fend off pirates, when the pirate just has to be strong enough to defeat their defenses. You're heavily skewing the whole equation in favor of piracy. Where's the risk for them? All the risk is being put on the shoulders of the non-pirates.

[@ioritenshi]

If people are playig this with expectations of never engaging into a pvp situation they are playing the wrong game. Theres no "full pve" player in SC. People will have to think twice if they think they will be able to man big cargo haulers solo 😂

[@stormycatmink]

@@ioritenshi I'm not talking about pure PvE. I'm saying some people just do not enjoy PvP, and Chris Roberts has made it clear the game will accomodate all play styles. So no, they're not going to just go tell people to play another game. The problem is right now is everything is focused on catering PvP in favor of piracy. Look at it from the perspective of those people who just want to chill out and relax in the game, exploring or doing space trucking. Why should they be forced to hire players just so they can have fun? Pirates do it for the thrill, not the cash. It feels a lot more like a campaign to goad people into PvP to 'protect themsevles' so those pirates can have more of a challenge. They want these epic battles where they go try and capture a transport and its protected by a squadron of other players. Feels like they're actually more concerned about making the game fun for themselves at the expense of people who're not into PvP. Maybe it's not all about the pirates, but when the game is already heavily skewed towards them, and you get videos like this trying to promote even more fun for the pirates, it feels fishy.

[@Uncanny_Mountain]

Space Dads wondering why every ship has guns 😂

[@razeyoshi]

Option 3 when your stuck at an armistice zone and pretty sure leaving will get you pirated, couldn’t you cut your losses and sell all your cargo back?

[@ThomasD66]

Currently no, the game mechanic does not support that. But you can leave it parked, ask chat for a ride out, then go do something else. Or come back and harass/disrupt the pirates until they leave.

[@Thomas-sv6jr]

This game is sounding more and more like a chore. I never played eve, but I did play eve echoes for a couple months and it was way too grindy and frustrating because everyone wants to be a pirate.

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

Certain things in-game are meant to be pretty in depth. With live feedback, we are able to help the company tune things to be more fun than grindy, though.

[@cobruh836]

so you basicly cant avoid being pirated or most likely griefed, because you cant rely on other people on the internet to help you. this is literally why i fell out of love with eve, because 90% of the pvp is just griefing in highsec, not even piracy. except eve actually gives you tools to mitigate the problem. but in eve you cant do anything by yourself, cause its way too expensive both in isk and time to farm anything solo. look, im mostly a solo player. i work a three shift job and my friends are more often not online at the same time that i am on. im not looking for a corporation that i cant keep track of either way and then they will kick me out. i just want to play a good space game and they are very rare. elite dangerous, as many bad things i could say about it, still did it much better than eve at this point. even if you dont have that much time to sink into a game you dont need a corp and you will still make reasonable progress. i have played about 1700h of elite over many years and i have multiple fully kitted endgame ships now, that is much less time than i invested in eve since its release, but in eve im still sitting at almost nothing and "pvp" players with unlimited funds from their corp keep griefing me out of the little progress i make with their kamikaze ships, for no reason other than they are ***holes or bored, or both. i think theres a place for piracy, but in the internet when giving the option most people will not be pvp players that seek a thrill but griefers that find it funny to ruin defenseless peoples session. thats simply not enjoyable for most working people with a demanding job and/or family to maintain and i hope star citizen will not head in the same direction. if you want piracy/open pvp then you better think long and hard about how to implement it

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

It's good they are able to test these things with us as the game grows. It should allow them to tailor the system to workif it can before actually releasing the game.

[@cobruh836]

thats true@@SpaceTomatoToo

[@cobruh836]

doesnt mean they will tho

[@sebxcore27]

If you don't want to get pirated, don't fly alone in sperm suit without gears, gunners and escort. Being pirated is not the same as being "griefed". Being pirated is part of the game and part of the risks. Pirates alsoo are working people, and piracy also takes time. pirates and non pirates just play the game. Pirates aren't griefers. We don't attack you to ruin your fun, but to rob your cargo period which is part of the gameplay loop. IF you don't like PvP, got an escort that like PvP to protect you.

[@cobruh836]

@@sebxcore27 well, youre wrong tho and youre missing the point, too.

[@hakon1027]

Was a good podcast. I see it this way. If you are new/a casual player. Why should you be rewarded with the highest profit of the best trade route? Its not like that you dont make a profit with other trade routes. You just make less profit if you are an casual player / new player. Which is completly fine. In other MMOs you also don't get the best loot as new player/casual player easily.