How To Influence People: Marketing Secrets Behind The World’s Biggest Brands - Rory Sutherland

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Season 5 Episode 14
Rory is the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, which is one of the biggest marketing and advertising companies in the world. He's the author of the book Alchemy: The Surprising Power of Ideas That Don't Make Sense and his TED talks that have been viewed over 7 million times. In the conversation Rory gives me a masterclass in marketing and advertising ,and reveals the marketing secrets brands use to change our perception of products and influence our behaviour. Enjoy :)
00:00 Intro
01:52 University and your view on education
10:29 The power of statistics
23:30 You should always ask why
25:09 The doorman fallacy
28:40 Consumer psychology
32:33 Why you should dare to be trivial
43:19 Building talkability into a product
54:48 What got your interested in marketing?
01:03:33 How most businesses are optimised
01:04:06 User imagery vs target audience
01:07:00 How you become the perfect brand
01:08:33 Evolutionary psychology and products
01:16:00 The importance of longitudinal questions
01:18:16 Why new ideas are slow to take off
01:20:53 Rebrands and longevity
01:30:37 Brands lead to better products
01:32:24 What don't people like about advertising?
01:42:55 Psychological value
01:48:47 Happiness
01:56:44 Book recommendations
🔗 CONNECT WITH RORY
📕 Alchemy: The Surprising Power of Ideas That Don't Make Sense - geni.us/TcHm5z
🐦 Twitter - / rorysutherland
💻 Website - www.ogilvy.com/uk/team
👥 Linkedin - www.linkedin.com/in/rorysuthe...
🔗 CONNECT WITH ALI
🎥 KZbin Channel - / aliabdaal
🐦 Twitter - / aliabdaal
📸 Instagram - / aliabdaal
💻 Website - aliabdaal.com
👥 Linkedin - / ali-abdaal
📚 RESOURCES MENTIONED
TEDTalk: Life lessons from an ad man - bit.ly/3LxGSrc
TEDTalk: Perspective is everything - bit.ly/3Lehi9f
The Meadow Case - bit.ly/3oLHTmG
Algorithms to Live by: The Computer Science of Human Decisions by Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths - geni.us/pcdhQde
On Brand Podcast - www.branddrivendigital.com/on...
‘Stuff white people like’ blog - stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/
Purple Cow: Transform Your Business by Being Remarkable by Seth Godin - geni.us/J7v3
Nassim Taleb - / nntaleb
Article on The Narcissism of Minor Differences in the Modern West - www.artofmanliness.com/charac...
Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioural Economics by Richard H Thaler - geni.us/Khp8M
Byron Sharp - / profbyron
David Rock’s Scarf Model - www.growthengineering.co.uk/s...
The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins - geni.us/AkTOn
Abilene Paradox - bit.ly/40KNQgI
Thinking, Fast and Slow: Daniel Kahneman by Daniel Kahneman - geni.us/6dSYK
Dan Ariely - danariely.com/
You Did What?: Secrets, Confessions and Outrageous Stories from Real Life by Tova Leigh - geni.us/yQXm0
Drayton Bird - draytonbird.com/
The Alignment Problem - Machine Learning and Human Values by Brian Christian - amzn.to/3NjEMfL
Unreasonable Hospitality: The Remarkable Power of Giving People More Than They Expect - geni.us/Z7eRg
Nicholas Gruen - www.kcl.ac.uk/people/nicholas...
📄SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT
Visit the website for the transcript and highlights from the conversation - aliabdaal.com/podcast/
🎧 LISTEN FOR FREE
Apple Podcasts - podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...
Spotify - open.spotify.com/show/7gZkflC...
RSS - feeds.transistor.fm/deep-dive
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🙏 LEAVE A REVIEW
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👋🏼 GET IN TOUCH
You can also Tweet @AliAbdaal with any feedback, ideas or thoughts about the lessons you've learnt from the episodes and we can thank you personally for tuning in 🙏
PS: Some of the links in this description are affiliate links that I get a kickback from 😜

[@DeepDivewithAliAbdaal]

Sponsored by Huel - go to www.huel.com/deepdive and with your first order you’ll get a free t-shirt and shaker. Sponsored by Trading 212 - download the Trading 212 app trading212.com/promocodes/ALI and use the promo code "ALI" after signing up and depositing to receive a random free share worth up to £100. This is not financial advice. Investments can fall and rise. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Other fees may apply*. Capital is at risk. Sponsored by WeWork - visit www.we.co/ali and use the code ‘ALI’ at checkout to redeem 50% off your first booking.

[@VioletIvy2]

😊😊😊

[@erincourtneyadair]

Ali, have you tried a hydrogen water maker yet?

[@Aaliyashi]

I love how Rory is like an unstoppable tornado of wisdom that cannot be contained

[@blek1987]

Sounds about right

[@WorksofWhimsyCrochetCo]

For real, this episode was weirdly chaotic but very interesting.

[@dmac2573]

I absolutely love Rory Sutherland's insights, I could listen to him for hours.

[@readmycomment3157]

He has a very convincing presentation style doesn't he

[@nabilbousabir4019]

Same

[@therichardbatt]

Me too. I think I've pretty much ran out of interviews and audiobooks of his to listen to!

[@thetmjhealer]

His talk at TED is worth listening to.

[@shieyawe3691]

I have listened to him for hours.

[@gswilliams]

Like standing under an idea shower! There were at least three things Rory said which made me say "oh hang on... that's really interesting" and one of them may have changed the my approach to the next 6 month's of my work. Criticism of him because he didn't stick to the question miss the point entirely! Also huge kudos to you, Ali for not trying to manage the interview too tightly. The man was throwing out pearls of wisdom like confetti, it would have been a massive mistake to try and rein him in!

[@theolaver1597]

Completely agree

[@katscandance]

Which one changed you’re approach

[@KanavKhurana]

Which one changed your approach? :)

[@jakequenet]

Rory really runs the line between madness and genius, he is so unconventional which makes him equally engaging and completely mind bending and incoherent but if you can separate the wheat from the chaff he has some great insights

[@eduardoPicazzo]

I think he's stunningly coherent, It's just that his mind wanders off to seemingly off topic ideas or minute details, then comes back and lands it like a F** genius haha

[@Wizo_0]

I’m 14mins in and I’m looking around the office like guys y’all need to listen to Roy talk. This man is brilliant. Can’t believe TikTok brought me here.😅

[@Because_Reasons]

Love Rory, has such an uncanny capacity for breaking down complex concepts into breath-taking intuitive speeches.

[@morthim]

stickiness over growth is a great thing to contemplate.

[@JousefM]

Rory is an absolute marketing genius!

[@the_lyrical_woodsman]

Rory is so right around minute 59 talking about how companies only do what's measurable and not necessarily what's important, which I have noticed when taking customer surveys. They only ask the questions to the parameters they can track and control easily within their organization, instead of the questions I always want to see which include a little free type text box to explain what you like or don't.

[@paulpeartsmith]

Mind blown over and over again! The thing with great thinkers is, they just lift the veil you didn't think was there and have you see things as they truly are. Brilliant, garrulous, fun guest!

[@tommytigwell8969]

So true!

[@gwieser]

Saw the title, saw the dude I‘ve never heard of, both not making me excited at all. Experience tells me this could be great, and damn, it was!!! British humour at its best! And of course with absolute truth in it!

[@visionboardmusicvision4the513]

I love the question about targrt audience! Im a 42 yr old black woman in America and absolutely love the creativity of Rory Sutherland, and just found your podcast, have watched a few episodes over the past few days and subscribed 🔔 I also just went back to school And I'm taking evolutionary biology and have been finding it fascinating as well! Being that marketing is my jam, to hear Rory Sutherland talk about it gives me an excitement about the class, new ideas!

[@Cacuofa]

Rory is also a fashion icon. I need that sweater!

[@Wizo_0]

I was thinking the same thing, love the sweater.

[@couragecoachsam]

The consumer psychology bit reminded me of a behavioral theory from fighting video games: never nerf, only buff. Making characters weaker to balance the game has a net negative effect compared to buffing less-winning characters

[@kygo]

Glad you've gone back to a nicer thumbnail on these podcasts. And fantastic guest, I love Rory! His books are great...

[@MichaelLaFrance1]

I recently started reading Rory's book, "Alchemy: The Power of Ideas That Don't Make Sense". One of the fabulous things about the Internet is that I can supplement his book with fascinating videos like this one, and also discover new KZbin channels like Ali Addaal's. Sutherland's book, by the way, is well worth obtaining. I have the audio version, which he narrates, and I recommend it highly.

[@woodywoody2413]

¹¹¹¹¹¹

[@andymcdonald8922]

I've started listening to it after seeing him on a few podcasts and its absolutely brilliant

[@wpoleg]

This is amazing! It is always great to see/listen to interviews that are not with “real estate/finance gurus” that think that they will teach us how to become millionaires in 1hr. This interview was full of sociology, history, arts, psychology - truly truly captivating

[@ac1646]

About 10:30 "ring up someone I know." For those who don't know, it refers to dial-up phones. 😁😁 Love that Rory refers to Google and 'ring up someone' in the same sentence.

[@JuliesMusik]

This interview is really great. Thank you so much!

[@ervinkahorere849]

Rory is a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for sharing this moment.

[@MarvinLiyanage]

God i love this man’s sweater.

[@thomasbiom]

2:02:25 James Hoffman must be so happy he spent all that time with you teaching you about coffee 😅 Love Rory - you two had a good conversation here

[@user-kt2xk6sv3r]

This is now in my top three podcasts of all time alongside Revisionist History's Toyota episode and the one on Elvis forgetting the words. Rory was that inspiring. More Rore, please.

[@AW-wo2pm]

Such a legend, love Rory!

[@ClarkeChingRollsRocks]

What a fascinating episode!

[@Kendanuja]

great episode Thanx Ali

[@danitee8401]

what a fantastic interview !!!

[@VoteLaborOut]

I learn so much about communication from him

[@thrivingthegrind6830]

Really needed his views after Chat GPT being so rampant....THANK YOU!!!

[@AlanusProductions]

Dominos is actually accurate I used to work at a model store, meaning we tested new methods for the company. My general manager would say we were a tech company that sold pizza

[@HannahClark-fv9lz]

This was great! My first introduction to Rory, thank you!

[@mtandazomaphosa1781]

Much love Rory from Zimbabwe

[@likewolf]

From now on I just listen to Rory Sutherland

[@acpenn1728]

Loved this episode! The whole episode was a tangent upon a tangent but fun to listen to!

[@romanochelommmiii1526]

Great one Ali

[@bobadams7654]

Rory- brilliant as usual. Many thanks.

[@armaugh]

Rory Sutherland is a fantastic interview. Thanks.

[@ac1646]

My goodness Ali, Rory was really impressed with you. 😁😁Not only as an alumni of Emmanuel College Cambridge, but it went from mild interest to veneration when you listed your degrees in medicine. In all his interviews, I've never seen this admiration on his face before. ✌✌🫶 Great interview BTW.

[@nick-03]

Whenever someone points out how many of us aren’t subscribed I purposefully don’t subscribe lol it’s so annoying. Great interview though

[@520cuban]

Last year I bought the Audible version of Alchemy, just a fascinating book.

[@chrisa3961]

I enjoyed Rory last July at the Last Fling. Just another level of consciousness!!

[@TheTitan11]

amazing to listen to 🙌🏼🙏🏼

[@davidbourne6478]

This is a brilliant interview. I’m off to buy ‘Alchemy’! Thanks Ali 😊

[@jackwoods3664]

Yessssss I’m so happy you got him on

[@Joshuarcade]

Great chat

[@theauthentictaste2469]

New wish - I wish I meet his man one day and spend the day listening to him talk ❤

[@tau3ahamakhoa]

Enshittification!! What a concept!

[@user-op2fz7bt5v]

I looooooove this guy,Sir Rory

[@tarryl.m]

Oh I love Ali’s redirection attempts. The rebranding one was my favorite 😊 Well played my friend.

[@admdrivingschool5033]

I love this guy I can’t believe I never heard of him.. you just don’t know where he is going to go next

[@deal2live]

Great place to end things!!!😂😂😂😂😂😂 especially after Frank Hester fuss😂😂😂😂

[@mikenicholsonsixsells]

Rory Sutherland - a national treasure

[@NB-568]

I could listen to Rory all day!

[@erincourtneyadair]

"One of 47 other Scrabble tiles...." LOL

[@HKAMILAH]

Love his attitude :)

[@mikew151Manhattan]

This guy is mind blowing.

[@joumaseworld]

Gold ....one love from South Africa

[@Hierrito]

Just subscribed from your twitter sounds fabulous!

[@alexandrakorman]

Rory is amazing and full of insights, great inspiration. Ali, you have to "learn" and mature as moderator to be able to manage the flow of Rory's speech and ideally be able to even guide it towards some key talking points 😂

[@baezabravo]

he is a bright person

[@RyanMcLeanau]

I don’t know what I just listened to for a couple of hours but I loved it

[@crazyguru9115]

Rory is always interesting to listen to. You should think about getting Gad Saad on your podcast one of these days.

[@SirThorney]

Was just reading Rory’s book. Some absolute gold in there. One idea of his which is briefly in the book I think could be a great local business idea

[@bobby9568]

That one, tell us more 😂

[@SirThorney]

@@bobby9568 Didn't realise how vague that was... Rory talks about graphics for roller shutters showing graphics of children reduced the likelihood of people breaking into the property. Essentially, this

[@bobby9568]

@@SirThorney Essentially this...

[@SirThorney]

@@bobby9568 read the book I aint rewriting it all x

[@bobby9568]

@@SirThorney You're probably his marketing person

[@81618j]

What the heck, Ali! This guy is brilliant, and simplifies everything so well, and all you can do is say, "hmmmm".... You need to have him back on and ask questions.

[@ADOX2525]

Hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm 😂😂

[@naeemsheikh4597]

Abdaal totally lost for words by being way 'out intelligenced' by the guest. In the spirit of fairness, so was I (and I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person). This guest is in a world of his own, literally!

[@Hiprich]

I love this 👌🏾

[@Stef_Test]

In that sweater, Rory is a human Garfield - smart, cunning, witty and just impossible not to love

[@christineculshaw9468]

good insights

[@salehwmosleh]

I loved this guy ❤

[@quibaos]

I think I’m going to really like this episode

[@stacyliddell5038]

Would have loved to see his take on Bud Light.

[@hasyourgulaggotplanningper2459]

I'm the same age as Rory. His brain is spectacular.

[@KONFLIK2175]

Holy God, This is more than gold!

[@augustinecourtauld9780]

Sutherland is brilliant

[@Taking_1st]

This guy described me perfectly at 1:04:24 😂

[@teriklang]

Hilariously brilliant. I could listen to him for days😂

[@whaxmusic305]

Can you do a color-grading tutorial for this? It looks so creamyyyy

[@alexeicrichton9673]

Long live rory. Much grace much peace 🎉

[@dcoughla681]

I use statistics to shine a torch in the dark to guide me when making a decision especially if I’m selling/marketing something. I bought a home many years ago in an area which was equidistant between 3 major North London hospitals as I figured that doctors would never be out of work! Over the years, the doctors status grew ever higher eg houseman to consultant to specialist until doctors stopped buying in the area altogether as they couldn’t afford it and moved out (overtaken over by bankers & hedgefunders). Improved schools, great transport links, a good house layout which made interior design to make a tiny house look huge a breeze, the worst house on the best road & on the fringe of some astronomically expensive areas did the rest. Statistics are important as an aide to marketing.

[@Snailgineer]

I subscribed because of this episode.

[@mariacristinaarezzi]

Hello and thankyou

[@darrenernest]

Totally captivating. Don’t be so annoyed trying to wrangle him back from his tangents lol

[@DarkForestAtmosphere]

If there are any unemployed medical graduates desperate for a job, love sunshine and blue skies, Australia is HELLA short of doctors. It's insane. People cannot get in to see their gp's for months, and then those poor gp's are exhausted, falling apart and going on indefinite leave. For chronic pain sufferers and other chronic conditions, as well as people with serious health concerns, and kids that need to see a doctor, we're all panicking, frustrated, and downright terrified. COME TO AUSTRALIA. PLEASE!!!!!

[@momohomeiza2000]

Thanks. Pls I've got a question . Have you interviewed any millionaire blogger on "your deep dive" Also, in your personal opinion, do you think blogging is still scalable in the next 5 to 10 years. Is the gap to the problem still that big?

[@fire-wn6dj]

ali is built diff with this podcast

[@AshxHP]

This man is a genius, but also the personification of ADHD 😂

[@jonno.alexander]

I love how media containing Sutherland starts off as an interview and quickly turns in an hours long monologue!

[@duke775]

I LOVE HIS SWEATER.

[@JohnGiasi]

Agree with many commenters regarding Rory is all over the place, this podcast needed an edit. TBH, Ali lost control of this interview off the start. That said, I *DO* think that this interview was eye opening, reaffirming (I'm a math guy), and insightful and of all the deep dives I watched, THIS is the one chock full of concepts with examples. The value here is Ali has 15-20 interesting concepts with which to create a long-form video diving into these concepts... The Explore/exploit trade-off; KZbin is video wikipedia; User imagery vs target audience; Abilene Effect; The Amazon Algorithm / garbage name registered trademarks; The dynamics of choice architecture; Basic Stats concepts - issue recalibration, average vs the normal curve; Total agreement on Japanese toilet vs western toilet/transformative products/concepts - buy once vs buy 3 times and onward; “How frequently will this be used?” as a critical concept/Apps AS A BARRIER; Tech ignores the elderly - this is huge, as a tech - still things are moving fast - for the teens/tweens and ignoring the elderly - everyone (hopefully) becomes the elderly! Book reviews of the list Rory randomly refers to all over the interview. The list goes on! As an stand alone interview, agreed a bit long and winding, Ali was clearly overwhelmed by a force of nature that Rory is, but all in all a great lever for Ali to build on this for HIS BRAND!

[@stacyliddell5038]

I think Ali is trying to do unedited raw podcasts in the vein of JRE so it would make sense for him to edit it. He can however improve his technique.

[@newmoneymarcus]

Rory is wild in every interview where the hell have you been?

[@erincourtneyadair]

He's way more fun than chatgpt. 😊

[@muhammadjondoniyorov5871]

where is the cardigan from?😁

[@curiousdrivers]

awkward smiles/laughs of Ali Abdal just to make sure the guest is not embarrassed

[@iamwillwatson]

46:25 nobody talking about this casual burp? 😂

[@taoyoka]

Rory making his rounds.

[@generalruler]

I'd like to see the stats on "ok" and "yep" in this podcast

[@RAINE____]

Rory Sutherland needs to be up there with Stephen Fry as National Treasure.

[@sakshibhatia3282]

He's just a casual genius

[@rc....]

How many categories of geniuses are there?

[@emcelectronik3948]

Skipped every ad during this talk about effective advertising

[@pauhemia]

Love the attempt to get control of the interview in minute 55 - “what is marketing?” Out of the blue haha A bit all over the place but good interview of you’re not looking for something too intense

[@generalruler]

LOL- the kids at Foxcon don't have beds - good one