IMPORTANT Changes To F-14A/B AIM-54 Phoenix Missiles (Nov 2020) | DCS WORLD

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#GRTutorial #AIM54 #Phoenix #Tomcat #F14A #F14B #DCSTutorial #GR #DCSWorld

[@dampsok]

I thought the Aim54 already needed to be supported until it went active... no wonder I was always getting shot down first... people just fired them and immediately turned away...

[@krostouin]

That never worked really well either, because if you lose track early, the Phoenix keep going straight. You always needed to guide the missile from far away, except in the terminal phase. So, 50 degrees crank left or right, while moving the antenna properly and staying below your targets, is and was the way to go.

[@grimreapers]

I thought this too, so I tested it on a non-updated DCS build, and I turned away at 30 secs TTI and the missiles all hit...

[@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat]

As RIO I would launch @ 60nm and get my pilot to go "cold", worked on most targets, to the point I thought 54's were fire and forget missiles. Seems I was wrong.

[@warhappens-com4489]

The AIM-54 was designed to hit bombers at very long ranges for the the time, close to 100 miles away. The strategy was fire from long distance slow down and climb. Giving time for the mach 5 missiles to hit there targets. If a second round was needed a plane or wingman could carry sparrows or sidewinder that would do the job. Never get within 40 miles of the target with them, because you will not be able to keep a lock and maneuver. At 11 miles when radar goes active, this is only second before it hits. The target better be in front of it. It wasn't very maneuverable or accurate. I worked on an early version, and we used to joke we could hit a flying barn at 100 miles, as long as it didn't move around a lot. Good against bombers, not so good against fighters. A good tactics was launching them 4 minutes apart. As a target avoided one, the second would get them.

[@emknight84]

Pretty much makes the tomcat even less relevant on the pvp servers.....jester can't maintain a lock on a target going straight and level. Its easier to arrange a real life one night stand threesome than find a competent human rio.

[@jakestriker3251]

Lol

[@emknight84]

@@jakestriker3251 tell me I'm wrong

[@Roofedhobo]

if you fly with jester youre doing it wrong

[@emknight84]

@@Roofedhobo lol how much do you pay someone to rio for you

[@Roofedhobo]

@@emknight84 i know multiple people that like to rio. you just need to join a discord for a server with people that are flying and your bound to find someone

[@HO-bndk]

Old fart: These video games are making our youngsters stupid! DCS player: Hmmm...PSTT or BRSIT or (ACM cover up with no track or PSTT or PDSTT) LTE is, unless STT and angle >15 deg then 2s, no loft, active immediately...

[@grimreapers]

lol yes that is one criticism that can't be levelled at DCS!

[@glassfullofmilk]

That's weird, from first point about the wcs keeping a track file on the target, those missiles should have been active when the missiles reached the "estimated" area with the TTI. But when you turned away I don't think they went active at all, TTI should be fairly accurate with the Bears only traveling in a single direction and speed.

[@josephkugel5099]

Correct me if i'm wrong but the way i see it the main weakness of the Phoenix was that it gave itself away when it went into final acquisition of the target and turned its own seeker head on sending a missile warning to the enemy cockpit, if the Tomcat can guide it to the target the entire way then there will be no warning, all the enemy pilot knows is that he has been seen by the Tomcat but he is not sure the Tomcat fired, so if the Tomcat fires its Phoenix at max range long before the enemy can shoot back then all he has to do is just keep his nose on the target which is not hard at 100 miles and just let the missile do the rest, all the other guy can do is assume the Tomcat fired a phoenix or two at him and start flailing around like a fish out of water, as long as the tomcat stays out of Amraam range it doesn't have to do anything but guide the Phoenix with total impunity, of course i may have misunderstood the info above but i thought that #2 said the missile would use guidance all the way to the target.

[@alejandrodeleon9330]

I’m not sure. Although if it does stay in tws the whole way that would be a good strategy. But you might be right I the sense that it might go pitbull anyway you should get a buddy out in a private server and test that.

[@hardcard254]

I think that phoenixes go pitbull within 10nm of the target, even if you keep the TWS lock all the way.

[@josephkugel5099]

@@hardcard254 Yeah that is what i always thought as well, to bad they couldn't turn it off somehow, makes you wonder what could have been if the Tomcat got picked instead of the SuperTurd and we got an updated Phoenix, AIM-54D or God help then an AIM-54X, you never know, at the rate they upgraded the dam AMRAAM we could have had an X

[@dirkmoller5104]

@@josephkugel5099 maybe the passive guidance isnt precise enough at close range? Must have a reason that they made it the way they did, I guess

[@servantofthealmightygod7234]

thank you brother.

[@StoneCoolds]

Im wonderinf if you can re establish link with the missiles if you regain lock, like lunch the missiles, turn off the radar, wait and at the last moment turn on the radar

[@daniellebduska9972]

This "upgrade" of the Phoenix missile with incapable Jester on board turning F-14 bird of pray into stuffed hen :-/

[@bryanbishop2377]

LTE doesn't mean you have to hold the launch button that long to launch. It means that launch will occur that long after you squeeze the trigger. Even if you hold it for a split second... unless, they changed this since I last fired a phoenix...🤔

[@cptmrcalm]

Nice thx

[@beanbagninja6224]

Snazzy dissolve effect at the end Cap!

[@grimreapers]

lol accident Steve, I don't like new things.

[@beanbagninja6224]

@@grimreapers Haha classic Cap

[@tomstorck9972]

Does that also account for Phoenix missiles, that have been added to other aircraft (via mods), that haven't previously had the Phoenix in stock?

[@grimreapers]

no idea sorry.

[@Rubberduckzillas]

I'm still seeing phoenixes in MP do the energy-bleeding bobbing up and down when approaching TTI.

[@krostouin]

same

[@DemonLordGamingAC0]

That's probably lag related, isn't it?

[@StoneCoolds]

All missiles do it, i think its because the other dud is lagging, or using VPN security, that causes sync problems and basically makes you inmune to missiles Some do it on porpoise as an exploit and others arent aware of it

[@DemonLordGamingAC0]

@@StoneCoolds imagine cheating in DCS

[@StoneCoolds]

@@DemonLordGamingAC0 its not cheating, sort-of, is basically desync problems causes by hig ping or VPNs, kinda like SC where people exploit high speed chace to become inmune to hits because of dsync People may use its ping to avoid getting radar lock or missile hit You see a lot of that in GS server actually lol I wont enter a server where i have ping higher than 100-120max

[@steffenkress692]

Hi Cap! Under point 2. Does that means, that when i shoot a pheanix > 10 nm in pdstt, it wont hit the target or do i have to keept the lock like with a Fox 1 missile until splash? thanks buddy

[@grimreapers]

The last time I read the manual (last year). It said that if fired BVR PDSTT then if you broke the lock then the missile would go Active. This update seems to suggest that indeed you will need to support with SARH until impact. This is still all WiP so unsure if it will be working yet or not.

[@TheConqueror1453]

Did I misunderstand the second example? Missiles showed 16 seconds of tti and you dived? And the missiles missed despite being in the pitbull?

[@gnranger]

Might be a dumb question, but can you keep the target on your radar's gimbal limit and the missile will go pitbull(like with AMRAAMS)?

[@grimreapers]

Yes, bit more fiddly then an AMRAAM plane though.

[@hardcard254]

@@grimreapers than*

[@ATP-Flo]

Good nerf for the Tomcat. I hated that people just spam these missiles and turn cold while these beasts even after minutes could go active and destroy their target. Now the Phoenixes are what they should be - long range missiles that also need proper guidance until they're close.

[@ahnkoo3570]

According to heatblur manual there is MSL OPTION switch (I guess its on RIO seat)... that allows to go from NORM to PH ACT which makes PH active directly after launch in both TWS and STT modes... theres is only note that this setting needs to be choose before launch and won't work for the missile already in the air...question is there a command to Jester to set it directly active after launch? Need to check it after work...

[@Michelsen77]

Could you find something out. I use the RIO ring menue for command to Jester.

[@eatthisvr6]

Is the 16sec tti real time or what the wcs says on the tid? Also if you launch tws then lose lock but maintain datalink will the wcs still tell the phoenix to go active?

[@Z4ng3tsu67]

I'm very interested by the answer to eatthisvr6's question. How the datalink works with missile ?

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

It is what the WCS says. When that goes through 16s TTI, it will send the command for the missile to go active, even if the actual TTI varies. That's what the last paragraph in the post sais.

[@FD1CE]

@@CakePrincessCelestia DCS-wise, it seems it's sometimes the counter in TID and sometimes the distance to the target. For example, some of friends had their TID counter going from 40 to 10 rather than 40 to 39 tti. At that moment Phoenix went active and made the opponent hear RWR warning. This is not apparently so reliable yet.

[@krostouin]

Is the 16sec tti real time >> It is explained in the only screenshot of this video.. Datalink has no effect on Phoenix tracking, as far as I know.

[@FD1CE]

@@krostouin This DL is just to send the "track file" and "go active" command to the PH. I "just" think that the 16s TTI is being calculated constantly over time, but DCS infrastructure doesn't let the missile and radar to do so.

[@jwilder47]

Just for clarification, where can the pilot see the estimated TTI in the cockpit? Is it somewhere on the TID?

[@grimreapers]

It's on the TiD and TiD repeater screen. Green number next to the Track symbol.

[@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat]

Once launched TTI data shows on the TID, can get a bit confusing when using TWS and multiple Fox 3's are on their way out.

[@ilejovcevski79]

Good vid. Have you guys had the chance to test if the missile loses track when fired in PD-STT and then breaking the lock?

[@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat]

You would assume it would lose track when radar loses REDFOR plane, unless launched in PH ACT. That's what I gathered from this video.

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat agreed. But is such behaviour implemented correctly?

[@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat]

@@ilejovcevski79 Jeez, "if working as intended" is in their own patch notes, so I figure maybe 50/50 at best :)

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat maybe..... we'll have to wait and see how far ED takes us with the new missile API

[@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat]

@@ilejovcevski79 I dunno, as RIO I can only get DECM working 20% of the time, even when I follow the correct boot procedure. Just like most games it will be working "Soon".

[@Tigermoto]

Is this going to make SATAL tactics change? Seeing someone go cold after firing a phoenix will take a lot of worry away. Can you reacquire the pulse after the fact or no?

[@dyren7437]

I think the RIO can still manually send the command to go active, so i dont think this will change things too much

[@BerkBerkinson]

@@dyren7437 how? I would really like to know

[@zaykiri8109]

would also like to ^^

[@dundun92]

@@dyren7437 no he cant, its a common misconception. He can force a missile on the rail *before* launch to go active with the PH/ACT switch, but not one already in flight.

[@projenitor2387]

We are experiencing a different problem, even supported the missile isn't tracking fighter sized aircraft. With a Rio they are not tracking at all. You see anything in your research on this?

[@grimreapers]

We only tried with Human pilots but we got it to track small aircraft perfectly on Single and Multiplayer. Weird results...

[@projenitor2387]

@@grimreapers I'm with a Milsim wing the missile is not going Pitbull with a rio. I Does with Jester. I doubt we are doing something collectively wrong.

[@DemonLordGamingAC0]

In short, I know it's meant to make it more realistic, but it seems like a major Nerf (again, if it's realistic, I don't bother)

[@hardcard254]

The phoenix's "magic" guidance before this patch allowed players to use the tomcat as if it were a medium range fighter, which was silly. The "get within 15-20nm, launch phoenixes and turn around before pitbull" routine isn't going to work anymore, which is a good thing. Tomcats are designed to fly high, fast and launch from long ranges, they're not supposed to enter WVR against bandits equipped with HMDs and missiles that perform way better at close range. Tomcats are supposed to fire from long range, at the right time and in the right conditions, catching bandits by surprise. Or, at the very least, tomcats should have the initiative, keeping bandits on the defensive way before entering their lethal range. If people don't know how to do this, they shouldn't be flying the tomcat. Most DCS players I've seen don't understand this doctrine, they get way too close to medium range fighters (losing the only advantage the tomcat has). They get killed most of the time, ofc, since Jester is blind, PAL isn't all that reliable, there's no HMD and phoenixes like chaff and can't maneuver for sh*t.

[@kwilliams3161]

Hard Card yea jester is definitely blind .plenty of times when a bandit is 20-30 nm in front of me but doesn’t show up on radar .like wth .

[@HO-bndk]

@@hardcard254 I suspect that all the hype about "Top Gun" spread a lot of very unrealistic ideas among the public of what the Tomcat was for.

[@DemonLordGamingAC0]

@@kwilliams3161 yep. I know the Tomcat's radar is very narrow from that distance, but he's literally blind and PAL only work within 15nm

[@kwilliams3161]

Demon Lord Gaming so if I have someone at say 40-50 nm and I launch a Phoenix,and it loses track,now bandit is within 20-30 nm ,I’m basically sol ?

[@chrisbenson2430]

How do you make the missile loft or not loft?

[@grimreapers]

It's automatic depending on Range.

[@GeorgeSoroshasenteredthechat]

At long range the 54 lofts to get through thinner air, increasing its operational distance, it's a automatic thing.

[@SweetBabyJames1]

Can a second F-14, say 20mi behind the shooter, support the missiles with its radar?

[@grimreapers]

Well that is controversial. In DCS at the moment I don't think so. In real life? Not sure...

[@mzaite]

@@grimreapers I don't believe so, they're tuned to a specific WCS during the "warmup" phase. So it prevents interference with multiple ships in formation.

[@P0G013]

SINCE THE LAST UPDATE ON NOVEMBER 18, MANY BUGS AND CHANGES HAVE APPEARED ON THE F14A/B AS THE EXAMPLE IN THIS VIDEO FOR PHOENIX. FOR ALL THOSE WHO WISH TO BUY IT, I ADVISE YOU TO WAIT AND FOLLOW THE NEXT UPDATES (DECEMBER 16TH)

[@eatthisvr6]

How does rhe rio send rhe active pulse?

[@thetau12]

+1

[@ionator2000ist]

There is a switch in the rio seat that has the lettering PH ACT

[@realQuiGon]

@@ionator2000ist I'm pretty sure this switch is only for setting the Phoenix to launch active of the rails. I don't think it will send a pulse to a TWS guided missile that is already in the air and tell it to go active!

[@ionator2000ist]

@@realQuiGon that switch from what I was told and read up on is supposed to turn a 54 active at any point. Be it as it comes off the rail or somewhere in flight.

[@realQuiGon]

@@ionator2000ist Interesting, where have you read this?

[@antenov]

can somone tell me have you can hit a airplane over 100 miles with a phoenix? that is the range of that missile. I have problem to hit a target moore then 60 miles from my aircraft.what are i doing wrong?

[@qenyaithandrill7848]

The target more or less has to remain on straight course, coming in hot, and you need to be high (say 35 000 feets) and fast (burner on). So basically the targets have to big bombers or airliners. Phoenixes aren't very good against fighters using high G manouvers, you need to get closer for BVR combat (i'd say under 40 nm, just to be sure).

[@grimreapers]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqLXnH16eK19o9k

[@antenov]

@@grimreapers thank you grim reapers for that show. you guys are the best at putting out grate vids about dcs keep it going

[@JohnGaltAustria]

What does "loft" mean?

[@tomstorck9972]

afaik its when the missile doesnt directly fly to its target, but rather flies upwards in an angle to increase its range

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

@@tomstorck9972 Exactly.

[@Hairysteed]

Yep! The missile pitches up to gain altitude i.e. potential energy during its boost phase so that when the rocket motor burns out it can coast down towards the target converting the potential energy to kinetic energy. This makes the missile go further than on a straight line.

[@jordanharvey5739]

^Not to mention it increases range by going through thinner air, which means less air resistance

[@anasgame5685]

please do tutorial mavrick c-130

[@grimreapers]

Doesn;t work.

[@suzannegoncalves9934]

🤔🎆🎖️

[@realQuiGon]

6:08 Really? Where is this "go active" switch supposed to be exactly? I'm pretty sure there is no such switch. If you meant the PH ACT switch, then is only for setting the Phoenix to launch active of the rails AFAIK. I don't think it will send a pulse to a TWS guided missile that is already in the air and tell it to go active!

[@hypeninja4786]

From what I’ve seen that switch does force the missile to go active at any time in flight as well

[@realQuiGon]

@@hypeninja4786 Really? Interesting, I have to check this out then, because that sounds like a bug to me.

[@toofless4541]

@@realQuiGon Almost positive you are correct.

[@samich318]

Tomcat is worthless now

[@mzaite]

The NAVY sure thought so.

[@hardcard254]

Not if you're flying with RIO

[@patsplats]

Two guys just argued with me in GS that 1. I'm an idiot, 2. The aim 54 goes pitbull 6 seconds TTI in TWS mode and it's completely dependent on the target size switch and 3. This is the most current and accurate information Were they wrong?

[@pvsheridan]

Hello, thanks for update info...please correct title, it's AIM-54, not "Aim-54."

[@grimreapers]

Wilco

[@paulmartinek1716]

You know I really REALLY hate having to come here and watch your videos because no one else in the community is making videos at the rate that you guys spit out this trash, every video that you put out, has irrelevant misleading information, and I really feel sorry for the new people that think the grim reapers are the pinnacle of DCS gaming and don't know any better, I'm not even a minute into your video and I already am listening to incorrect information. It's not even like it changed between when the video was released to the time I made this comment, this is day one release shit that you are stating incorrectly.

[@hardcard254]

Make your own videos, then.