Irredeemable "This is who I've Always Been." - Dr. Henry McCoy is...Evil By Design

[@armisteadgwathney6152]

Remember even the watcher told MCCOY TO HIS FACE THAT HE DIDN'T LIKE HIM.

[@christopherperson1939]

Devil's advocate here you can argue the Watcher is a creepy fucking voyeur. Stop spying on everybody you weirdo!

[@jamesricker3997]

We've seen him in Age of Apocalypse

[@FandomSage]

yep and he barely phased

[@oscarnjboy]

What issue i wanna read it

[@armisteadgwathney6152]

@@oscarnjboy All NEW X-MEN #25.

[@Bladescorpion83]

Beast suffers from the flaw that a lot of scientists, including Pym suffer from. They sometimes forget to ask if they should when they ask if they can.

[@MrOrcshaman]

Same with Iron man, Mr fantastic or Nick Fury.

[@christopherbennett5858]

I think one of the best descriptions of Beast I’ve heard came from the podcast Cerebro by Spencer Ackerman; Beast is Xavier’s best student when it comes to assimilation. And he’s the best example of a character that embodies the US history of medical ethics. He wants to be seen as exceptional, dependable and fit in. He goes to be a hero after graduating and what does he do? Joins the big Avengers team. Why? Because he wants to be seen as a hero loved by everyone, not just a hero of mutants. Is he willing to basically sell a homeless black woman whose powers have mentally impaired her so that he can have the research material to synthesise a “morally good” cure to the legacy virus? Yes. And he believes that he’s doing things for the greater good. Heck, his relationship with Abigail Brand, often the head of Sword, is pretty telling. She’s essentially his ticket into authority and, if she approves of things, it must be good to him because she’s in power. Even though she’s basically Joss Whedon’s answer to what would happen if the US’ war policy in the Middle East was made into a person. It doesn’t matter to him because she’s still in power and doing what he perceives to be good. Heck, he ignores red flags like how she said he looked sexy and reminded her of her dad… and her brother is just a Green Beast. Heck, whilst it’s definitely escalated a bit too much, giving him a chair of power as the Krakoan CIA head? With all his besties who have overlooked everything before on the council? Heck, he accidentally wiped out a South American country and the worst thing he got was a scolding from Jean who just quit the team. Frankly, the only reasons why he hasn’t been put in the hole is because Krakoa puts the most expendable into the hole when they do crimes. No one was missing Oya, or Madison Jeffries, or Nekra… even though she rocks. But they also put people who they can’t just ignore when it gets too much. Such as Nanny and Orphanmaker. Beast was toeing the thin line of respectability, similar to characters like Fenris. And, like things Ein und Zwei, the moment he stopped and the moment his crimes were too big to ignore, that was only when they acted. However, like many fans, Hank’s peers and friends clung to the idea of him as their friend. So, unlike Fenris, they let him tinker and have enough stuff to get away and not be beaten the moment he steps back on the scene. Side note, in an interview Fabian Nicieza did, the guy who wrote the Threnody story, he apologised for being the guy behind the downward spiral of Hank.

[@FandomSage]

interesting take thank you

[@FandomSage]

also the Krakoan Era and the status of mutants provided the ideal environment conducive to his bad behavior and yes everyone was enabling him too

[@christopherbennett5858]

@@FandomSage Heck, even in the Hellfire Gala, he’s revealed to have done some awful things and he tries to justify it as him being the necessary action. That’s why I felt like the Illuminati book was a comedy where you have the “geniuses” of Marvel who cause some of the biggest screw-ups but without their moral anchors by their side. Bad writing or people trying to make sense of past writing slip-ups? I don’t know. But it’s entertaining. Frankly, I was hoping for X force to end with Threnody joining in on the Hank McCoy smackdown. Then again, I’m a guy who thinks that, if anyone has the right to punch Maddie Pryor, it’s Ms Melody Jacobs. Because, after Maddie killed her, the character derailment began. The saddest part of that Threnody story was that, when Hank was showing compassion to someone who was dying, Threnody was likely to hear him showing that to the woman in his arms but not her. Heck, his respect for women is well known to be a little less. X factor had Cyclops convince him, Bobby and Angel to not tell Jean, their recently resurrected friend, about Maddie and Nathan. And they kept it secret. Except for Angel who did it because he wanted to get close to Jean… meanwhile, his girlfriend, Candy “the legend” Southern, was keeping Angel’s business afloat. But yeah, Hank rarely ever gets any consequence for his behaviour unless it’s a consequence inflicted on his body. Even the Watcher who scolds him literally does nothing. Not even tell someone who can do anything about it. And now the crows are coming to roost.

[@MsClayparker]

I'm not the Hero you want, I'm the Monster you need.

[@ra7ar]

100% disagree that Beast is supposed to be evil. Every character has evil versions, and Hank being a scientist is why people tend to turn him evil since Mad Scientist trope, hell even Mr Fantastic isn't safe.

[@microcelltechnicalassistence]

I think he meant that he have more tendency to become evil

[@timv82]

Agreed completely disagree with this video, Beast is an incredibly good man until we started to see his alternate selves, always a risk taker yes but more than anything a good man and a good friend but ever since basically the Legacy Virus story then all of the sudden he started to be portrayed differently

[@fooliecoolie5284]

Beast has always been a egotistical fool. He's turned evil more times than most other characters.

[@fooliecoolie5284]

​@timv82 yeah, this isn't a alternative version, and he was such a good friend to Wolverine. GTFO

[@FandomSage]

I agree with you in some respects specifically the intelligence factor but Beast has had at twice as many evil turns shown to us in 35 years

[@Blindsyde5762]

Interesting discussion. I think this is the fun side of comic characters. The fact that we can relate to them ALL on certain levels. We all have good and evil inside. It's the plot paths, and their actions that make us judge them as more good, or bad. Magneto is one of my favorite characters in the X-Men universe because I can understand where he's coming from, even as a bad guy.

[@FandomSage]

that's why I've always been drawn to more complex characters. Superman bores me normally he's too straight laced

[@AngryPug76]

Don’t forget during the Legacy Virus he had no problem offering evil scientists and dictators like Doom, Wizard, Hyde, Namor, Osborn and the rest all kinds of power if they cured the virus.

[@wildominion7171]

GoodLuck on your new venture.. I’m digging this

[@dangerousdays2052]

Doom isn't evil. The Panther God confirmed that the world would be better if he ruled it.

[@ghettofigurereviews5056]

Dude now this is a great video . The biggest threat to the X-Men seemingly always comes from within. Look at the resurrection story line: instead of making themselves stronger and learning from their own mistakes the X-Men became increasingly arrogant and sloppy. No wonder it was so easy for Beast to go full evil.

[@FandomSage]

thank you! 🙏🏽 I can't believe the response I've gotten 🥲

[@DjD1ym]

At first I thought you were bonkers, but after listening to you I have to admit you make a compelling.

[@leonardpigg6441]

During his tenure as an Avenger, he used to get captured and beaten regularly. Panther, Wasp and Pym were always getting roughed up. Cap, Thor and Iron Man would come and save the day. At least Wonder Man was his bestie then. I'm surprised you didn't talk much about his time as a Defender, as it seems he always struggled to find a place to belong, always returning to being an X-Man.

[@coricschronicles]

This is a very comprehensive analysis of Beast! More power to your channel! 🎉

[@FandomSage]

Much appreciated!

[@Andropov-l2w]

he was a clown ass mascot in his avengers run.

[@seansweeney638]

Depends on when we are talking about. Are you saying from the 60s forward he was designed to go bad? Then no. If you mean since the late 90s, just as the Extreme and Belt Pouch era was fading, then yes. The problem is that a lot of what we love in our characters actually comes from the earlier era. Comic book fans know each writer is different and we will try to wait out a bad arc. But something changed at the end of the aughts... heroes as villains became the norm. All the smart guys go bad. Everybody's strengths had to be twisted into weakness. There was always some of that in comics but it really spread such that it effected ALL the characters in rapid succession. Originally we would have told those stories as elseworlds or what ifs... but now they had to be mainstream. Just like bringing the x-men forward abandoned the branching timeline approach to time travel making many worlds. So when we say we want old Beast back... are we saying we don't want one afraid of his own mutation? No. But we do want one who might do horror to himself in a desperate bid to save himself, but not one who would have space stations full of human victims of experimentation and murder his friend and use a tortured, lobotomized version as a mass produced weapon of war.

[@timv82]

Nailed it! IMO

[@FandomSage]

the precise argument that prompted me to make this video. Beast isn't just one of the attributes you have mentioned. He has always had the compacity to shirk morals in exchange for progress and and scientific curiosity which is how he mutated himself. Creating and using that serum on himself was reckless and unethical leading to MGH/Kick then Sublime gaining the ability to infect mutants... the consequences of his actions were always an afterthought and just dusting off an younger Hank doesn't address those character flaws. He needs therapy

[@seansweeney638]

@FandomSage I have to disagree on his serum being unethical. It was no more unethical than trying to cure an auto-immune disease. There was certainly NO reason to think it would lead to MGH and the very idea of Sublime didn't exist in or out of the world. Your theory would make unethical for a human to attempt to not devolve into a monkey. The consequences were limited to himself prior to the change in writing style. They then added unlikely and unforeseeable developments to every scientists work to crank up drama and tear down established characters (similar to how killing people was added). That is like saying the ancient chewing of coca leaves for a boost was unethical because centuries later some other person would make cocaine and some other person beyond that would create cartels that kill people to secure territory or profits. Modern writers retroactively changed the character and tried to say it couldn't have gone any other way.

[@FandomSage]

He knew he was in the wrong then... that's why he hid it and it wasn't curing anything for the greater good. It was selfishness that motivated him and self loathing. The serum was a mutagen that rewrote genes and could have created a deadly viral outbreak

[@FandomSage]

Also the cocao analogy isn't equivalent. That's a naturally occurring plant and accessible to anyone

[@mrtommypickelz3441]

This video fills in the gaps real well when it comes to getting to know more. Very informative. 👍 preciate it!

[@FandomSage]

thank you! Im glad you liked it. Do you have any ideas for some areas of focus? Im open to suggestions

[@thefreerocketman5777]

@@FandomSage kind of a hard task but I'd love to see a video all about the lesser known alternate timelines/futures the 616 X-Men have interacted with

[@FandomSage]

ok i will add that idea to the list!

[@kylonbell123]

Bro this is one of the best breakdowns of a character ive ever watched keep cooking fam this what we need💪🏿

[@FandomSage]

thank you for the kind words!

[@Gunther-mt2bk]

Wow. Guess the fans loved Dark Beast more than I thought.

[@FandomSage]

I'm not stanning just offering up observations and clarity free of blind emotion.

[@Gunther-mt2bk]

@@FandomSage wasn’t directed at you. Unless you represent all fans.

[@CommanderBohn]

I loathe what Marvel does to Beast. Hank was never evil. We have Dark Beast for that.

[@FandomSage]

they are the same person with different circumstances that all

[@CommanderBohn]

@@FandomSageBut what they are doing with him is essentially on the same level how they are doing it with Peter Parker. Only instead of ruining his life they are ruining his character for shock value. Marvel needs to be purged and have every hack replaced with competent writers and truly good artists. Or at least the former.

[@whateverwhatever4476]

@@CommanderBohnyeah, but he's been like this since the 80s. It ain't going anywhere

[@CommanderBohn]

@@whateverwhatever4476 Screw that. Just because something is a thing doesn't mean one can accept it.

[@whateverwhatever4476]

@@CommanderBohn sadly, it's been building up to it. Nothing you can do about it. It didn't just come out of nowhere

[@aVerveQuest]

Great theory about his time with the Avengers, but the writers of that comic were a bit "by committee" at that time, bringing us the horrid Ms marvel impregnated by a being shed then have an incestuous relationship with, and Yellow jacket hitting his wife. The writers just wanted some "humor" and Beast, off the cancelation of The Champions, was available. Bad writing as character development is a Marvel staple

[@FandomSage]

even if that could be considered an argument what is written is written. I make it a point to refer to evidence across every era and each writer has built upon the questionable moral decisions Hank has made from the beginning

[@Bubblegob]

What's funny is that Beast as a known mutant in the Avengers is actually tokenized by the writers.

[@mauriciomartell2433]

Have we truly seen Hank's Happy Farm, or are we not there yet

[@Rocc1285]

Now they have another version of him. Thts in the present using one of his clones and memory’s of him when he was good. I wonder how tht will go.

[@seijicaito8860]

Idk I mean He kinda did questionable stuff: pretended to be gay, made an more lethal version of a virus to wipe out an entire race of aliens just like the mutants right before, had to work with a bunch of villains and even in the Krakoan era Hank was killing "potential" threats to the nation and made "experiments" which were…terrible

[@notredboi]

Pretended to be gay? for what reason?

[@seijicaito8860]

@@notredboi He tried to get mess up his ex girlfriend by telling that He might be gay but that backfired when She told this to everyone but Hank didn't told the true so He just pretended and even Scott and Emma were pissed with Him

[@notredboi]

@@seijicaito8860 That... sounded even crazier than the virus thing lol and here i was thinking he was chill like in the movies and cartoons

[@seijicaito8860]

@@notredboi Oh the virus…yeah this one is messed up too

[@RotalHenricsson]

Thought that was Garrosh on the thumbnail.

[@numinous123]

I disagree with the claim that Beast was supposed to be evil. However, there was no going back from the path he was put on since the early 2000's. Even The Watcher called him out on it, and called The Beast "disgusting". When The Watcher, a being who claims non-interference, goes out of his way to personally give you a "reason I hate you" speech you know you're damaged goods. Like, the worst.

[@FandomSage]

I remember and then Beast went right back to sleep 😂

[@numinous123]

@@FandomSage Yeah. Beast was a full-fledged a-hole by that point.

[@christopherbennett5858]

@@numinous123Frankly, when I think of Beast now, I do recall the therapist from Rick and Morty’s explanation of the family using intelligence to justify sickness. And, much like the Smith Family, Beast has rarely ever had to own up to what he’s done. And his most consistent peers for the last decade was either the Illuminati or Abigail Brand. That isn’t a comfort. The only one that would be closer would be Sage whose processing power turned her to alcoholism which Beast fuelled.

[@MariusBlack]

Nice video! Keep it up, very informative about the things I've missed about Beast :)

[@FandomSage]

Thank you for the kind words!

[@H1vey]

Nice video to have in the background while working from home. Subscribed :)

[@FandomSage]

wow! Thank you for that awesome compliment and for subscribing. If you have and out of the box Marvel related questions please share them. I'm coming up with new content now

[@energiovanni432]

I missed that part. How did that get past Professor Xavier?

[@FandomSage]

what specifically?

[@greygremlin1248]

This is the reason why I rather read classic comic books

[@FandomSage]

what reason is that? and what classics do you prefer?

[@drewcee_]

Love the video and all of the input. Just please get some clearer pictures. Some of them were quite pixelated.

[@dannytarver4533]

Wasn't that Beast dealing with Threnody the Dark Beast from AOA?

[@jimkettner8363]

Been loving your videos, but hard disagree on this one. The reason “dark beast” resonated way back in the day, was because it was SUCH A STRETCH from the character fans loved and knew. I’m a genX fan (the actual generation, not the x-team. 😂) so Hank’s personality I read as far back as 85 has always been somewhat jovial/fun/playful that coincides with his intellect. Also in the 70s the “X-books” weren’t a whole corner of the universe, so mutant characters, particularly from the original class showed up in the Avengers or the Champions (or Spider-Man’s amazing friends😂) nothing more to it than not wanting cool characters to fall by the wayside just because Claremont wasn’t using them.

[@FandomSage]

Well within the context of the story Beast left the Xmen and was inducted into the Avengers. The business side of things always effects the story but it isn't a part of the narrative in universe. The video isn't me championing for Beast to be a villain but pointing out that it wasn't "lazy writing" or whatever criticism people were throwing out. The ground work was laid out for decades

[@kwamintaylor4247]

The problem isn’t Hank Mcoy being a villain. That has been accepted willingly throughout x-men history. So no need to defend that. The problem is Percy. He’s a bad writer. There was no explanation or reasoning behind why Hank was behaving out of character. Hank has always made poor decisions. But there was always an understandable reason why Hank was acting immoral. So the problem is Percy’s poor storytelling and no true understanding of the characters

[@FandomSage]

I am not taking about one writer during one run. I discuss multiple instances when Beast's ethics and compacity to cross certain lines were evident.

[@kwamintaylor4247]

@@FandomSage Okay. I agree with you. EVERYONE agrees with you. Beast does questionable things. You don’t have to convince people of that. Why people are mad because this was the first time beast ever went full generic villain without no reasonable explanation We still to this day, never got an explanation of why Hank went completely nuts. In every other instance in your video, there was an explanation of why beast was unethical.

[@FandomSage]

Well the point of me making the video was to present a hypothesis. Life doesn't just lay things out for you easily. sometimes you have to put it together and even then you may not see a clear reason. Sometimes people are just trash and do things because they can😊

[@kwamintaylor4247]

@@FandomSage it feels like a bit of a stretch. We are trying to make sense of something the naturally doesn’t. But to be clear, we all agree Hank has always been doing bad things. But this is the first time we actually needed a video like yours to actually justify it. Which is a huge red flag of being written out of character.

[@MrReckless1978]

Sorry can't agree, I think ppl just want to see the good in everything destroyed.

[@FandomSage]

I don't fee l anything is being destroyed and Beast as a character is more interesting imo. Just because a character changes doesn't mean their value to the story diminishes.

[@MrReckless1978]

@@FandomSage If you destroy all the heroes who will children idolize and emulate.....the degenerate

[@jamesricker3997]

It would make sense, That is why Xavier recruited him to try to prevent him from going evil

[@MrOrcshaman]

It's horseshit, this isn't what he was meant to be. Oh there was dark beast in AOA so that's proof? The AOA had sabertooth being a hero in that and exiles but you don't see him as a good guy in any other version of him. This whole thing is just some hack writers wanting to subvert things for shock value and nothing more.

[@FandomSage]

i actually cite 4 or 5 other versions of Beast that were villainous, as well as pointing out the various things that he has done over the course of his entire publication history. Unless you're inferring that just about every Marvel writer that penned an X-Men comic during the last 30 years is a hack...all I know I presented the facts as they happened in the comics. #sorrrynotsorry

[@MrOrcshaman]

@@FandomSage that's just how marvels done every scientist or smart character, Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Hank Pym, Bruce Banner. They all have elseworld stories of them being evil too, doesn't make their main character focus meant to be evil, despite what hack writers would have you believe.

[@FandomSage]

@@MrOrcshaman many characters have villainous turns or heel turns that's just a hallmark of storytelling. I won't pretend to know what may or may not have been deliberate about Hank's character development, but the proof is on the page and I'm not advocating for him to be evil or good whatever that is. I'd much rather have a character be interesting. Beast's story has sparked much debate as you see so in that respect, I appreciate the writers who actually incrementally and collectively inched Hank McCoy to this point because for me it makes sense and was not so farfetched at all.

[@ZeroKyori]

Amazing and thought provoking analysis

[@FandomSage]

thank you!

[@Bubblegob]

It pains me to say it but you might be right.

[@restinpeace-s8c]

or could just be that crappy writers like to be lazy and make hank evil

[@catspaw3092]

I agree they don't bother to read about Hank, they're too lazy or just like coming up with crap to mess with his character. It appears every character in both Marvel & DC are constantly being changed up & not for the better.

[@FandomSage]

it seems more lazy to call writers lazy because you don't like the direction they are going

[@casanovaredmond8982]

I don't care what anyone said 🤔 this is ridiculous --- everything today is for shock value 🤔--- for money & sales-- plus this is what 73% of the writer do in Comics today & that is to destroy comics & the characters within it 🤔🤔- it goes to show us what's wrong with the people writing today. & U wonder why the sales are so low & shops are closing down. ---78% new books no good.

[@FandomSage]

I'm not talking about one writer. in my video I refer to events over 30 years

[@alexsolomon8127]

you cannot have a character in comic books be intelligent, AND competant, AND morally good for an extended period of time. becasue if they were all three..they would solve the problems, and then the comic would be boring. So they're always smart...but ineffectual due to some character flaw. Pym is bipolar. Stark is an egomaniac and drunkard. RIchards doens't give a rat's ass about the world outside of his family. Peter Parker has a martyr complex and HORRIBLE luck. and Hank McCoy is comic relief because if he were to take things seriously...well...he would either have to turn on his freinds for all the utterly unethical things they were doing....or go down the exact path he went down. never forget: an institution like Marvel does NOT prioritize good storytelling. they prioritize selling comics. they will warp or reboot things however they please to that end. it's not about the product the business makes.. it's about remaining in business. and much like mcDonalds..it's far easier to sell a crapton of mediocre product than Quality work.

[@whateverwhatever4476]

Stan Lee been doing that for years. Not surprising. Also, Stark hasn't drinked in years he stopped a long time ago

[@alexsolomon8127]

@@whateverwhatever4476 he's relapsed multiple times. and he's STILL an egomaniac

[@Zeromegas]

This "New" Beast is Dark Beast. :/ He keeps jailed the original McCoil. Please read the wikia of Dark Beast.

[@FandomSage]

im sorry I am unfamiliar with that theory. Dark Beast as far as I know is a head in a jar in Sinister's lab

[@b.e.francis1272]

What's with guys in black face????

[@FormlessJKD17]

Cat Beast...😂

[@ghostdog1758]

Be careful when taking about recessive genes. Some animals regress when forced to get primitive like in the woods or the jungle. Some humans too.😮 Maybe?

[@FandomSage]

I don't doubt that. it's a natural response to one's environment but it happens over a long period of time. We're talking comic book science aka fiction. Atavism in the comics can cause changes in biology in hours

[@gordonford215]

Beast is good. The blue beast

[@desmondnaugler4452]

I totally disagree with him going evil ,I could understand more animalistic.But a lion isn't evil because it dominates it's territory.Evil has malicious intent .

[@NuwandaLunaDragon]

the point of beast is the fact that in mind he's not beastful at all, he's not primal, he's not animalistic the only lion-like thing about him is his exterior, his evil is of a completely human brand

[@FandomSage]

exactly... he is a man underneath it all. Why is it so hard to believe that someone could choose to stray? Honestly this is one of the most realistic aspects of the character. People are fallible... even heroes

[@desmondnaugler4452]

I'll never understand ,the new readers always have to make everything evil I guess it's the flip side of going woke.either way it alienates the audience when it is done only to break the character.

[@NuwandaLunaDragon]

@@desmondnaugler4452 the evil Hank started decades ago, the tendency of making stuff evil started at the end of the 90s there's no relationship with anything woke or any tendency, you're uninformed and making stuff to validate why you don't like somrj8

[@jonbodhi]

@@desmondnaugler4452but this has been a LONG time in coming. Hank was called out by every single X-Man EVER at the end of an earlier run because of his increasingly dodgy ethics and reckless decision making. It’s been a long, slow, but consistent descent. Self-justification, and no one to question you, make for a heady brew of delusion.

[@remymccoy6078]

😂😂😂 i think Beast is awesome. HATERS are just born to HATE

[@kuji-in-deed369]

I personally think that this evil version of Beast is some kind of variant from an alternate universe and the real beast has been sent away somewhere trying to get home. I refuse to believe that this is his natural state of being.

[@bestblerd5042]

The idea that the design changes throughout the years being an aspect of mutant genes being in flux instead of the obvious answer.... each of these depictions is from a different artist and author.... you reaching so hard your arm socket must be made of adamantium

[@FandomSage]

that isn't a reach. It's been stated multiple times....

[@jonbodhi]

@@FandomSageit’s literally been written into the stories that Hank’s mutation has continued from his initial change. New X-Men had him lamenting that his hands were getting too ungainly to do delicate work, because they were now paws. He performed MORE experiments to bring himself back to a more human-like state, and this was commented on by others.