FaderFox PC-12 / The PERFECT Midi Controller for DAWLESS Set Ups

[@LiamKillen]

Hey you! Yeah yeah! Thanks for watching 🙂 Distribute your music with DistroKid - 7% Discount Link: ►distrokid.com/vip/liamkillen Visit my Patreon for exclusive content: ►www.patreon.com/liamkillenmusic

[@vinylarchaeologist]

About the price: Faderfox is literally just a guy in Germany doing this for the love of it. The economies of scale that you're used to from big corporations just do not apply in this case, and that explains the price. I've once toyed with the idea of having a custom MIDI controller built for me, it would have been just 8 faders and the cost was at least 3 times this. I understand the frustration with something being expensive, but don't knock it before understanding _WHY_ it costs what it costs. I don't think anyone is getting rich off of selling these - knowing a bit about how small German electronics companies tend to work, I'd guess it's probably just enough to keep the business going.

[@LiamKillen]

True! Hes not even on Social media!

[@Lo-fi_Hi-brow]

Exactly

[@MyReasonToPlay]

8 faders from Ali + Arduino + box = $50

[@DochertyStephen]

Yeah, don’t start me on German engineering/economics - I just paid a fortune to Steinberg for Cubase 13 and it’s crashing on my new rig. It can handle one VST and then the Asio driver dies immediately. Apparently, Steinberg’s very own Asio driver is completely inept in dealing with multi core processing. Gernans, are definitely not my favorite people right now.

[@DochertyStephen]

There’s just some things you shouldn’t have to pay such a high premium for - I pair the Faderfox with the $1500 stand for the Apple display a few years ago.. seriously, $800 for knobs that control CC messages - think about that - is this now the new ‘norm’?

[@alexwestconsulting]

Problem with the PC-12 is that if doesn't have endless encoders so on startup, they are not in line with the respectively with the value that they are controlling. As soon as you move one, the representative parameter that it controls jumps in value. This is a massive problem depending on what the parameter is and far it jumps. Something like the faderfox EC4 or dj tech tools Midi Fighter Twister doesn't give you as many dials, but the endless encoders on them solve this problem. Even something old (and ignorantly forgotten) like the Novation Zero has endless encoders and so a good (and cheap depending on if you can find a used one that someone undervalues) option. I really do like the PC-12 and so am keeping it, but for reasons of practicality, I use the other units I've listed much more.

[@LiamKillen]

Hey thanks for your take on this!

[@alexwestconsulting]

...oh and the Behringer BCR-2000. That thing is a tank but a very good option. It can do sysex too for older synths (Zero can too).

[@andyslate]

hey @@alexwestconsulting, are you using the midi fighter twister with your elektron gear? i just got a twister and try to figure out what would be the most efficient way to utilize the endless encoders. and how do you connect the twister to your elektron midi input?

[@alexwestconsulting]

@@andyslate elektron's don't have native midi host unfortunately. That's a real drag. My synthstrom deluge does which is one of the reasons that it's my primary dawless controller. For the elektrons you need a midi host. I use an iconnectivity audio4 (also have an iConnectMIDI2+ which does the job just fine). I also use a Sevilla UMHR when I need something quick and small, but it's kind of rare. Or I use the deluge as the host and patch it through to digitakt/octatrack. I don't have one, but the DOREMIDI is cheap and easy to pick up but doesn't have nearly as many routing options. Maybe you already own a piece of gear with midi host abilities? There's lots of ways to patch it, but you need something with midi host abilities.

[@alexwestconsulting]

Yeah, I guess that's one area where the pc12 does well in, with actual full midi outs. But that's kind of rare in midi controllers these days. None of the newer novation or akai controllers have that. Old school BCR2000 and Novation Zero do, But I really like the usb midi that the iconnectivity and Sevilla can do in addition to standard din midi. I just read that Organelle has midi host which I didn't know and I happen to have one of those. Newer mpc's have it too. MPC one is just a killer deal, can do so much, And any device with midi host can then patch out the controller usb midi out it's din ports. It's super annoying that elektrons don't have midi host.

[@burritobot]

I too was skeptical about the PC12. An 8-year old piece of kit with 72 MIDI pots isn't exactly a cutting edge revelation. But after seeing that dude Pat break down his setup, breathing new life into Elektron boxes, and making any parameter easily accessible-I was inspired to try it for myself. I bought a used PC4 on Reverb and paired it with my Digitakt and T-1. SO MUCH FUN! The way you can sculpt the sound and dial in the vibe really lends itself to live techno composition.

[@LiamKillen]

Yeah he brings it to the next lvl for sure

[@andrij.demianczuk]

I own a PC12 (thanks to you Liam!!!) and I gotta say it’s one of the fastest and easiest devices to program. When you dive into it, you can do things like copy a column’s settings across the device with automatically incrementing midi channels for example. The layout is great if you systematically organized your controls (my top 3 pots are always hp, lp and bp filters for example, and the bottom three for each row are for effects fades. You can also do some crazy stuff if you have midi effects pedals too like the Microcosm. This is by far a desert island piece of gear for me

[@LiamKillen]

Glad you’re into it!!

[@v0g32]

I am having trouble connecting my octa and digitone to faderfoxpc12. I want my octa to be the master clock. Tried octa out to midi splitter and Fx out 2 -> DN in FX out 1 Octa in. But i have midi interference. How can i have the octa as master clock and control both units with the faderfox?

[@LiamKillen]

This sounds like a very specific thing that someone from my Discord might be able to help you with - here's an invite: discord.gg/xj8J2xJuBP

[@the_velvet_void]

midi merger

[@kathleencoveny3860]

Thanks again for walking us through the process ... always look forward to jumping on a surf board and riding the music waves with you ... cheers!

[@LiamKillen]

Cheers!

[@errorkit]

really need this in my elektron setup - just curious if i can use it in a serial setup when there is digitalt into syntakt into digitakt II into Digitone - can I just assign different midi channels to my Elektron Boxes and plug the faderfox into the first elektron box? will the signal go thru the midi chain? faderfox -> digitakt -> syntakt -> digitakt II -> digitone? really need those mute buttons for the digitone°°

[@LiamKillen]

I haven't tried with 4 units but if it's daisy chained and you ahve all of your channels / CCs set up properly then I don't see why it wouldn't work !

[@touchthatdial]

I have a Faderfox EC4. Great little unit, so well built and can do a lot. Pairs really well with the smaller Elektron boxes (Digitakt, Syntakt, Digitone) as it’s almost exactly the same height (bottom of unit to top) and about half the width (left to right) so you can fit 2 x EC4 units side by side and get 32 x endless rotaries with the same size footprint as a Digitakt. Best of all, the EC4 has a 4-character display for each rotary so you can see the labels for each control. And it has an online editor (runs on Chrome) which is way faster than editing on the device. I love all of the Faderfox gear (borrowed a MX12 recently, it’s a great big of kit) but I’d rate the EC4 v highly, it is actually more advanced than the bigger boxes in some ways.

[@LiamKillen]

Yeah Anything from FF is high qual AF

[@robtronik]

What a fantastic little (but very powerful) techno rig you have there. Nice one!

[@LiamKillen]

Hey thanks ! 🍻

[@paolodepetris7034]

supercool! do you have a link for the stands used for elektron and faderfox??

[@LiamKillen]

Yeah i'm using Analog Cases XTS stands :-)

[@DeathFromRKelly]

All I ever hope for is a generic midi controller with center detents and short throw faders, right now I’m using a Reloop Buddy, which has been fun, but I’ve no use controlling my Akai Force with jog wheels…

[@LiamKillen]

There are companies that offer custom midi controllers!

[@ftc_music]

I rarely recommend “B”-products, but the good old BCR2000 could also be an alternative.

[@alexwestconsulting]

100%. I have 2 of them.

[@LiamKillen]

Thanks for the rec !

[@LiamKillen]

🔥

[@djcrouton2680]

Looks good. I have a Midi Fighter Twister (which I still think is the best encoder/button midi controller out there) so not something that I need but still looks like a good unit.

[@LiamKillen]

Yes ! The Midi Fighter Twister is very cool too ! I've tried it out and it feels great - you might be interested in joining my community Discord ! Here's a link : discord.gg/xj8J2xJuBP

[@maikvanrossum]

Do you probably have any experience with the EC and UC models? They seem to be more flexible with rotary encoders, display and faders. Switching layouts / sets seems to be quick, too. So yes, the PC12 looks like a beast, but one that’s harder to tame…

[@LiamKillen]

I used the EC in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4fclJaDf9-qedk hopefully this helps :-)

[@docjoesweeney]

Yes. Yes. Yes The PC12 is the heart of my set up. Set up is a breeze and its just beautiful to use. Its a tank and a work of art together.

[@LiamKillen]

Yes!!

[@chrisw1462]

Not every manual will have the CC numbers in the back.. The Microcosm, for example, has them in the middle in their own chapter.

[@LiamKillen]

Oh ! Appreciate the clarification :-)

[@vascocosta3720]

Great you touch pc12 topic, more of these please. How could i make a template for ableton that doesnt go everytime i close my project? I guess apps like remotify could be an option, but in general ableton mappings i struggle with button mapping, they seem always to respond light on device off, light off device on, and not sure how to change that. Also seems the buttons have 3 functions cause everytime i map buttonsto ableton racks,devices etc the on off option is quite a headache. Any ideas?

[@LiamKillen]

Ummm your midi mapping should stay if you save the project 😊

[@ozzy3ml]

Love the look and build quality but I like my bcr2000. It’s a midi powerhouse and cheap. Also sturdy although the buttons and knobs are plasticky. Good space for overlays/tape too. Form factor isn’t great though as it’s pretty huge and basically square

[@LiamKillen]

Sounds like you're covered!

[@embazle]

For the PC 12 and the Digitakt alike, do I need to be in the respective menu of the Digitakt in order to activate the CC programs configured?

[@LiamKillen]

no as long as you're set to the correct midi channel you should be fine.

[@ayh1029]

can this map to control its own knobs with one of its own knob?

[@LiamKillen]

I’m not sure what you mean !! Hit up my Discord - maybe someone will be able to help there

[@Lo-fi_Hi-brow]

@LiamKillen If you're messing around with parameters (on Faderfox) on an Elektron box that doesn't have kits, and you change patterns, what happens to all the parameter settings that were changed via the Faderfox? Do they snap to the saved settings of the new pattern? The Faderfox doesn't have endless encoders, so what happens with the knobs positions in that case?

[@LiamKillen]

They snap!! It’s a big problem with the Elektron boxes

[@Lo-fi_Hi-brow]

@@LiamKillen That's what I suspected 🫤. The lack of resistance on the encoders and the pattern changes without kits are pretty much the *only* things that I don't love about the Digi's.

[@HalfBakedBeats]

Thanks for sharing. Can you let me know if it would be possible to use the FaderFox with a TR-8S to control MULTIPLE parameters on its effects (ex: 3 FaderFox knobs: 1 to control ISOLATOR-FX lows; another for mids; and another for highs) - Probably wishful thinking. But maybe? :)

[@LiamKillen]

Ummm I’m not 100% sure on that but the 8s is such a tactile unit to begin with it might be redundant!

[@andyslate]

Super cool video!!!! i see a A&H k2 @stereoimg. Can you elaborate how this is integrated? is that Patrick's rig or yours?

[@LiamKillen]

Here’s the full video of stereo img’s set up! kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqvTmqV5aZqhrNEsi=3V6syDmSz1ZkypPm

[@RevIsnot]

such a cool setup!

[@LiamKillen]

Thanks for watching ! :-)

[@timdanyo898]

I’ve got a Kurzweil K2000. I wonder if it could control the inner workings? 🤔

[@LiamKillen]

Perhaps it could 🤔 ps thanks for watching 😊

[@anonymous_friend]

Let me know what you find out. I've got a K2VX this would be amazing for.

[@timdanyo898]

@@anonymous_friend I might give those guys at FaderFox a call tomorrow..

[@TheJacksonscience]

We need a tutorial on getting that bass sound, fire

[@LiamKillen]

Haha

[@Dubsteppah]

Great video, you have some sweet pieces of kit. Hey do you know if FaderFox makes little Ableton midi controllers? I saw some for sale a while back that looked really cool. Cheers

[@LiamKillen]

Do you mean the EC-4? Yeah they seem to still be in stock!

[@Dubsteppah]

@@LiamKillenOh man, you're a lifessaver, I had no idea of what the name was or model #, thank you a ton! Now I know what it's actually called, and it's still around, that's great! It looks like a superb Ableton addition. Hey thanks for your knowledge and excellent video/music glad I found your channel!

[@Dt3kno]

Any link where to buy the faderfox PC 12 in the US?

[@LiamKillen]

Ahhh my mistake! Just added the affiliate links

[@Dt3kno]

@@LiamKillen thank you ..🙏

[@anonymous_friend]

Behringer needs to hurry up and come out with the BCR-32 or BCR-64

[@LiamKillen]

😅

[@NostalgicExplorer]

Great video! Cheers

[@LiamKillen]

🍻

[@vznquest]

if only this thing didn't cost $800...is there any sense in that? btw you've become one of my favorite synthtubers slowly but surely. love how you focus on things that work well for performance and don't just shill anything.

[@LiamKillen]

Hey I appreciate that! :-) Yeah it's not cheap but it's the type of premium item where if you do invest in it, it delivers - and also if you resell it the resale price doesn't drop that much.

[@zackcolbourne6921]

Just wait until my MIDI controller comes out. It has 17,983 knobs and two sliders.

[@LiamKillen]

Lol

[@vascocosta3720]

A more deep pc12 ableton script would be killer

[@LiamKillen]

It’s super easy to set up with Ableton!

[@RealDealy]

Bangin'

[@LiamKillen]

😏

[@ichigen511]

Does Pat have a Soundlcoud? Does he sequence music and produce it for sale? Or does he ONLY play live and we'll NEVER get a copy of what he makes? I'm so frustrated that you didn't link his socials and there's nothing I can do about it. Frustrated! Also if Pat does NOT create final versions of anything I am EXTREMELY curious why he doesn't want to sequence a final version. I find it very strange and it just doesn't add up. I can see artists that perfrom and use modular and they can NEVER reproduce what they make. Just NEED to know how Pat does his thing it's driving me crazy. Why no links to Pat's socials?!?!?!

[@LiamKillen]

Not sure what you’re insinuating - he’s mostly a live performer but he does produce and mix as well - he’s mixed my releases actually. As for his links, as mentioned in the video, they’re all in the description.

[@ichigen511]

@@LiamKillen Thak you for replying I think I was in my head and a bit envious how this kid making tracks dynamically I always wonder how people think about live perfomance and I imagine myself in a better place were I can truly understand. At this point I am old (52 years old) and angry at my life decisions and I spit vitriol at things I dont understand. Yes. I'm coming down from a synthetic mushroom and thought commenting on KZbin was a good thing to do. Love your channel! Ugh.

[@Curious_Skeptic]

Drives me nuts that we still don't have a midi controller with MPC X an OLED per knob. For the money, the FaderFox should at least have a full readout, not just calculator style segmented LED. Sad.

[@LiamKillen]

I dunno man ... this thing is pretty dope. There's a company that designs custom midi controllers - I forgot the name .... but maybe that's something you'd want to check out.

[@MikeBalk]

Tasty unit

[@LiamKillen]

Namnamnam

[@catscanmeow]

its perfect eh? so that means it has more than 127 steps of resolution for the knobs? because 127 steps is useless.

[@LiamKillen]

🤔

[@alexwestconsulting]

Not many controllers do. Faderfox ec4 does.

[@andrew1550]

Translation: "I can't make good music because the resolution of my midi is too low". Find a better excuse.

[@alexwestconsulting]

@@andrew1550 It's a legitimate concern. Without higher resolution, you get artifacts such as stepping on a filter which does not sound good. Mind you, many synths can only do 7-bit (0-127) so while they intrinsically have stepping, many synths nowadays can handle higher res.

[@catscanmeow]

nope, if that was the case then midi 2.0 wouldnt be higher resolution than the 127 steps of classic midi, and....newsflash it is, i guess theyre making the new standard higher resolution for no reason other than to anger you, because apprently there is no purpose. @@andrew1550

[@DochertyStephen]

The price is pretty outrageous, considering what it does..

[@LiamKillen]

It is expensive but there’s basically nothing else on the market like it

[@DochertyStephen]

@@LiamKillen ..so basically, it’s just acceptable they charge a pretty astronomical price, because there’s no ccompetition!?! People go absolutely nuts when drug companies pull this crap off.. I’m giving an extreme example, but it’s exactly the same principle. You could buy a used 1st gen Octatrack for the price of this controller - and guess which one you could do so much more with.. Keep up the good work - been a fan of yours for a long time..

[@RockLobster223]

@@DochertyStephenthat’s business! If I made something that NOBODY else could make, but people wanted it, I’d charge whatever I could get away with. That’s what pretty much every single company who want to make a profit do. How is that a surprise to you?

[@DochertyStephen]

$800 for any midi controller is ‘taking the mick‘! I actually bought one but resold it as I couldn’t justify paying that amount of money for a box of knobs that control CC messages. Fair play to everyone else who got one and loved it!

[@MyReasonToPlay]

@@LiamKillen behringer bcr2000 - $100 ?

[@jukkauh]

Awful. 72 pots and no way to programmatically label them. No usable screen. You have to literally write a template with a pen. No support for NRPN, RPN, Sysex strings, Bank Change + PC, or MIDI Machine Control. Has no one learned from Novation? The Zero and Zero MK II remain the gold standard. How can this nonsense cost as much as it does? A Used Zero costs $200 and is far more capable.

[@LiamKillen]

Hard disagree with you there!

[@jukkauh]

@@LiamKillen In what way? The Zero has faders, programmable labels, touch-sensitive updates, sysex, NRPN, RPN, Bank Change, and MMC support (!), three times as many buttons, real patches and templates, and software support. The FaderFox has, um, 72 pots/encoders vs 48 on the Zero. And costs 3x what the Zero cost *new*. This is absurd.

[@Granularis]

​@@jukkauhhey, what's that Zero called, the full name pls! 😎

[@alexwestconsulting]

I've got both and while the Zero is awesome, I still use the pc-12 quite often.

[@alexwestconsulting]

@@Granularis Novation zero. There's a mark 1 and mark 2. Both are good, get the one that you can get cheaper.