Lila Rose Breaks Down Her Abortion Debate With Destiny on @whatever ​

[@sonia.Vasquez]

I think Lila knows that Kristen ruined the debate and made it chaotic, but she’s too sweet to actually say it ! Don’t worry Lila, we know your professional and classy style of debating!

[@TexasAndyAquatics]

Now now let's be realistic. Lila interrupted as much if not more. I was incredibly disappointed with both women and their purposeful ignorance when it comes to analogies and hypothetical. To claim things like, his examples aren't exact comparisons, even after him stating it's a hypothetical example is just a bad faith rebuttable. I'm def ofan of the destiny guy but he was atleast consistent, over and over having to annoyingly repeat himself honestly dodging their"gotcha" attempts . I mean they continuously kept trying to twist his words. Moral of the story as a strict pro life person I wish the ladies would have just stuck to the topic at hand because for the first time, the conferences were behaving like the crazy blue haired bro choice ppl usual do. Let's get that round 2 going but 1v.1,,..

[@sonia.Vasquez]

@@TexasAndyAquatics true, however, I feel like Lila had more to contribute to the debate. Kristen is just trying to throw unnecessary insults. It’s almost painful to listen to. Lila was a little off her game but I believe that’s only because Kristen threw the whole thing off. Lila is very professional and asks very good questions. Less of the unrealistic hypotheticals.

[@marfin4325]

@@sonia.Vasquez Wasn't Lila the one saying stupid things like, "So you're saying a baby is car?"

[@sonia.Vasquez]

@@marfin4325 what’s your point? She’s pointing out how ridiculous the comparison was… a baby… to a car.. ??

[@marfin4325]

@@sonia.Vasquez When one makes a comparison, it is stupid to think they are saying they are the same thing. If I want to illustrate how the circulation system works in the human body, I could say it is like our highway system, where main arteries branch off to cover a wide area. It would be stupid to raise your hand and ask, "so your saying that highways and our circulatory system are the same thing?"

[@faysalals1]

we need a rematch between only you and destiny, it would have been so much better

[@desmondbush8804]

Baiting her into a curb stomp is funny 😂

[@ret4kind]

But she's a Jesus freak. They aren't looking to learn the other sides position. The only reason fundies "debate" is to seek positive reinforcement for what they already believe to be true.

[@faysalals1]

@@ret4kind Debates dont require the other side to learn. Its about making a good argument for your opinion.

[@charlessynowiec3876]

@@ret4kindjust say u don’t want a connection w God becux that’s where morals come from

[@user-pe3fk1fb1o]

@@faysalals1 Debates require both sides to be charitable to the other's position, otherwise it's likely going to be a waste of everyone's time

[@joebriggs5781]

I don't think Lila's being sincere enough about how awful Kristan was in this. This was a complete missed opportunity with a lot of eyeballs on it from the other side of the fence, and Kristan looked just as bad as the liberal pro-abortion people she complains about that don't like to have civil discourse. This wasn't a Students for Life video where most of the viewership is already Pro-Life, this was a lot of people that are pro-choice that watch the Whatever podcast and Destiny's podcasts and streams. I would love to see a 1 on 1 debate with her and Destiny, I think that would go much better.

[@shmoopy4676]

I want to see another debate with just the two of you. Kristen ruined it imo

[@machellovelivelife658]

AGREED!!! There were moments she even talked over/interrupted Lila. It was too chaotic. I think it would've been better w/ Lila & Destiny. I honestly couldn't finish watching, and I'm pro life... I think Dr Stephanie Gray Connors and Lila Rose are the best in interviews & debates.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

Everyone who debates Destiny always wants a do-over

[@shmoopy4676]

@@wyleecoyotee4252 I’m sure they do, he’s an impressive debater. But I just wanted to see them debate one on one bc Kristen got on my nerves so damn much. I could barely watch

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

@@shmoopy4676 He debated Rollo and Rollo lost. Then had a do-over with Sartain and he didn't fare well either, despite being more knowledgeable and eloquent than Rollo. Anyone who needs a do-over should be embarrassed.

[@onemanonepencil4105]

@@wyleecoyotee4252 I don’t think there needs to be a do over but if they feel the convo would be better in a different environment, I say go for it.

[@mamigetsreal4503]

The layout was unfortunate. I think it could have been a great debate had there been structure, a moderator actually moderating, and questions.

[@marfin4325]

If the moderator actually moderated, he would of cut off Kristen and Lila a lot more to allow Destiny to finish his thought. I dunno why you think a moderator would help them.

[@TransConservativewaifu]

Thanks for going out and debating him

[@dracofox839]

This is what delusion looks like

[@marfin4325]

Yes, thanks Lila. It was grade A content I will enjoy for days!

[@Sigmundfrued]

Being trans and conservative in this day and age is wild 😂

[@LiveActionFilms]

Like watching Lila Rose debate? Check out the debate between Lila and Brenda Davies (aka "God is Grey") on the Ellen Fischer Podcast: kzbin.info/www/bejne/paPRgWOtaaurqLs

[@aimee4998]

Yes, I've watched that one multiple times! I'd love to see another debate like that.

[@jhnxavier]

⠀ ∘ If consciousness ends, one can be _declared_ brain dead _(which is distinct from absolute death)._ ∘ An absence of consciousness due to its end, is falsely equivalent to absence of consciousness that’ll inevitably develop. ⠀

[@MegaTelenovela]

I'd love to see you debate on abortion topic with Mama Doctor Jones.

[@miaamoo1860]

OMGGGGG FRRRR mama doctor jones really gets under my skin the wrong way.

[@ZillaMesh]

Is there tension between Lila & Kristan? I hope not as they both have their own style but I believe the same or similar goals.

[@channelcoconut6830]

Yes and I think a lot of people forget that Kristen is in a very different environment when she debates. She is usually on a university campus and is debating very hostile and sometimes violent students. I’m not sure if Lila puts herself in the same environments but I’m assuming since I watch the live action channel she doesn’t. She usually does one on one debates, Dr Phil, and news I’m sure it’s not all but for the most part

[@avalauren4731]

@@channelcoconut6830this clears up so much about Kristen’s style. It was honestly jarring and confusing but now that I know her background, it makes more sense

[@ret4kind]

Lila's group has funding from the Republican party grass roots campaign so that's how she ends up on mainstream television. There's a lot of Catholic money flowing into the Republican coffers.

[@implodingllama2092]

@@channelcoconut6830Kristan cannot debate. She showed no debating skills. The standard she showed on that podcast is well below uni level (atleast compare to back when I was at uni). She debated like someone in high school unfortunately

[@joshlin50ja]

mmmh you think they might have similar goals? mmmmh I think you're onto something

[@sarahkwolfpack]

Still presenting NOT in good faith. Destiny being incorrect about when ectopic pregnancies happen has NOTHING to do with his painfully clear point that abortions should be allowable when medically necessary after the 24 week mark. It’s rebuttals like this one that make it impossible to take this lady seriously: she is not even trying to debate genuinely.

[@CarlyAnn16]

Thank you for posting this. I couldn’t stand to finish the actual debate because of the chaos it was too hard to listen to. But I found destiny’s argument interesting (even though I don’t agree with him) and wanted to hear the rest of it

[@leonardjanke9099]

One of the best debates I have seen on the matter and an excellent post-mortem. Unfortunately, in a real-time debate, whoever appears faster on their feet can seem to have the sounder position, so it’s important to have thought through as much as possible beforehand. Hence the value of this post-mortem for others. That said, both Destiny and Lila did a great job of thinking fast on their feet. In general, Destiny seems reasonable and like someone who can be won over. Would be great to have him on our side!

[@DannyD-lr5yg]

Super glad Kristan was not invited to this one. She ruined the first debate for everyone.

[@IgneousMetamorphosis-kr6ni]

You guys have no idea who destiny is. You actually have to make arguments to convince someone. Unfortunately though you guys can’t be convinced

[@leonardjanke9099]

@@IgneousMetamorphosis-kr6ni how should people be convinced if not by arguments?

[@ll2323]

Bot.

[@JesseDriftwood]

@@leonardjanke9099Lila said in the debate that she thinks the strongest “arguments” are the emotional ones. That isn’t an argument, that’s a fallacy.

[@peterengland8131]

If their argument is that it can be considered a parasite, it is definitely alive.

[@justchilling704]

Yeah but then it’s also a complete misdefining what a parasite is.

[@trevornunn3285]

An early fetus is living human tissue, similar to what sperm is. Therefore it should have the same rights as sperm

[@tomasrocha6139]

@@trevornunn3285 No, a fetus is an individual human organism, unlike sperm.

[@trevornunn3285]

@@tomasrocha6139 One second after fertilisation, is the fertilised egg more similar to the unfertilised egg and sperm that existed 1 second ago, or to a live post-birth human baby? Be honest now

[@tomasrocha6139]

@@trevornunn3285 Since zygotes are new individual human organisms they are a lot more similar to babies than to male or female gametes, and they can most certainly die

[@blueeyes3]

Murder is murder. Even if the mother is 11 years old.

[@tecumseh4095]

And capital punishment ?

[@mommatron742]

And how does a 11 year old take care of a baby? Foster care? Where they grow up to be teenage moms and convicts? Amazing how conservatives don’t care about the baby after it’s born.

[@Nineteen-Eighty-Four]

​@tecumseh4095 would you rather kill an innocent baby or a murderer or rapist?

[@DriveInFreak]

Yet what you are advocating for will kill the 11 year old. If you are "prolife" why are you advocating for something that has, does, and will kill women?

[@DriveInFreak]

@@Nineteen-Eighty-Four Forced birth is worse than rape.

[@mariussielcken]

Consciousness does not define life. Life is defined as that which grows, takes nourishment and reproduces.

[@Milo-cv6qk]

Bacteria grow, takes nourishment and reproduces. Should we charge people with murder if they kill bacteria?

[@nikanzamani1545]

Destiny's argument isn't that an infant before 20 weeks is not alive nor that it is not a "life". his argument is that it isn't conscious. It was the first premise, second premise being: Only a conscious human beings deserves protection under human rights. There for abortion is amoral before 20 weeks and immoral afterwards.

[@nikanzamani1545]

Now there are 2 ways to atack his argument, either saying that infants do have active capacity to deploy consciousness, which as far as I'm aware is a biological fact and there isn't really much room to argue. Or you could atack the second premise, saying that even human beings without active capacity to deploy consciousness are deserving of protection.

[@thetrib1]

@@nikanzamani1545 it's about personhood yeah.

[@mariussielcken]

@@Milo-cv6qk yes, bacteria are alive. No, you may not kill babies. Get behind thee me, satan!

[@avivastudios2311]

11:08 You're such an intelligent woman. And you make your points so well. Very succinct.

[@maryangelica5319]

On the "definition" of death: I think even Lila was missing something here in that an observational determination is not the same as a definition. The definition of death is not "complete irreversible cessation of brain activity," in part because not all organisms have brains or brain activity. So if an embryo dies, we can't determine death according to this definition. What we do instead is consider this irreversible cessation as the best biomarker we have of death in developed humans. Why? And this has to do with what we are trying to capture, namely, that in death, the body permanently loses its integrity and coherence. The ancients would define death as the "separation of the body from the soul," but soul here isn't understood as some spiritual thing floating around, but literally the principle or even property of life in the organism that gives it its functional integrity . So now we can see why irreversible cessation of brain activity is a pretty good biomarker after a certain point, namely, that the brain assumes the role of our central command system. When the brain permanently ceases to function, the body begins to decay, and this is because it has lost the principle that kept it integrated and maintained. However, if the organism hasn't developed a brain yet, something else typically has "central command," or the system is simple enough not to need that level of biological central command yet. In such cases, therefore, brain death can't work as a biomarker for death. But we can still tell the organism has died because it lost its integrity and self-coherence, in a sense. But once we are clear about the distinction between definitions and markers or determinations, while that doesn't fully address the moral implications or lack thereof of having or not having consciousness, it becomes quite easy to poke holes in Destiny's argument, as it hinges on a reciprocity of brain death to the beginning of life.

[@thetrib1]

destiny is right absolutely. when it comes to personhood that is. how humans act.

[@chichilinha2895]

Thank you for pointing this out, I had missed that too😮 I think we are valuable because of our inherent humanity not because of our consciousness, I think if value of humans was solely tied to consciousness we'd run into a number of problems, inconsistencies or logical holes. For example we couldn't classify it as murder if someone slips an abortion pill into the drink of a pregnant woman and she loses her pre-conscious unborn as a result, it could be at the most classified as some type of bodily harm but not as murder since according to pro-choice logic supposedly nothing of objective value was lost no matter how much the pregnant woman had loved her preborn and pre-conscious baby before it was killed. If we don't value beings based on their mere humanity but based on their capacity for continued consciousness as Destiny suggests, we'd also have to say that we could never compromise the wellbeing of conscious beings (older humans or animals) in favour of pre-conscious humans. For example in a future where artificial technology could keep pre-conscious humans alive outside of the womb, we couldn't defend those pre-conscious preemies from attacks by violent humans or animals aiming to attack those pre-conscious preemies through stopping the human attacker / animal with potentially violent or lethal force if needed. If a pro-choicer said compromising the wellbeing of a conscious being (older human or conscious animal) would be ok to protect a pre-conscious human from violent attacks, he/she implicitly values the mere humanity of an entity more than the capacity for continued consciousness, so the pro-choicer cannot then turn around and criticize pro-lifers for valueing the mere humanity of an entity more than the capacity for continued consciousness. And of course as Lila correctly pointed out: If there was a disease/pathology where the prognosis was that the patient would lose all brain activity but thanks to new technology or medicine would almost certainly develop brain capacity again or wake up from his coma after a few months (let's say 9!!), but would then suffer from complete amnesia, would not remember anything and would be mentally at the level of a newborn and would have to relearn everything from scratch (language, motor skills etc): Even with such a prognosis, it would still be an injustice to kill this patient painlessly during his brain inactivity/coma, for example by pumping him full of pain medication, anesthetizing him, etc.

[@carlpeterson8182]

I agree that it is not he definition of death. I think she said that in the video. She said it is how we determine death or something like that.

[@desireyolison5819]

Ectopic removal is still considered medically an abortion

[@quesostuff1009]

It’s quite weird how the medical label these things Why is a DNC operation labeled one as well Or having a miscarriage considered an instant abortion. That confuses me

[@TheMusicscotty]

A person's a person, no matter how small.

[@Ziploc530]

This is what we needed for that 4 hour debate.

[@brittneyzarwel6242]

Lila, I would love to hear your opinion on abortion abolition. I've been seeing Abolitionists Rising videos on my feed & they make a point to highlight how they are not "pro-lifers". I'm curious about the pro-life view on abolition? Is that the pro-life goal? Is the process incremental for pro-life advocates? Abolitionists seem to think incremental restrictions & exemptions aren't beneficial for the anti-abortion side as a whole.

[@channelcoconut6830]

Great question. I would like to know this as well

[@curiousrap]

Those guys? From what I gather, they are more faith based in their ideas

[@einarnunya7249]

@@curiousrapHow is it faith based to say human beings are human beings and all deserve equal protection under the law? You’ll notice that I didn’t need to use God or the Bible to ask that question.

[@einarnunya7249]

Live Action has no interest in immediate abolition of abortion and is a pragmatist organization.

[@curiousrap]

@@einarnunya7249? But that group does mentioned they are faith based in their profile? Not sure what you are trying to disprove

[@brightshining]

But to define "the complete and irreversible cessation of brain activity" as the meaning of death is also a *perfect* argument to support Destiny in so far as why a non-conscious, pre-born foetus would not be 'experiencing death as we know it' when aborted It justifies why he doesn't think it would be a human person being killed as exactly that - no brain cessation has been enacted I think it is a very interesting way to frame the meaning of the value we place on life metaphysically I wish you had engaged in his perspective from this conversation as thinking of the hypothetical potential of consciousness, and hence brain activity, and whether or not this could be possible as a marker for the beginning and end of the experience of human life

[@quesostuff1009]

Destiny has a well thought out perspective Not one that I think is morally right. Especially with his liberties but he def thought it out

[@MooseCall]

I try not to judge, but... A blue haired man named Destiny? I just don't understand.

[@justchilling704]

Why I doing him like that 😂 well at least it’s not his real name but now I can’t unsee your framing.

[@armrestinc1985]

He dyed it for a children's (I think cancer) charity and chose Destiny as his gamer-tag when he was 12. He kept it because he first built up a reputation as a professional gamer, so it was name recognition, but he tells people they can call him Steven.

[@MooseCall]

@@frostic824 Now THAT makes sense.

[@mechmobile2019]

In 2023 you dont understand what's wrong with our society and largely with the western culture? I don't believe you don't understand, I believe you are refusing to call him a mental patient

[@noah-ni3ee]

Haha not our problem you base your opinions and arguments in feelings...

[@owensullivan252]

Destiny relies heavily on analogies to carry his point, and if you aren't quick enough to spot where the analogy fails to support his argument, he counts it as a win. Thankfully, Lila is too quick on her feet to let that happen to her.

[@thetrib1]

he actually doesn't. he's hoping for good faith engagement. analogies are only used to bridge a gap in understanding. if he had to use so many of them then think about why that is lol. his point was very simple to understand imo. almost as simple as their argument. destiny stated his position up front...and they spent half the time arguing about the 20 to 24 weeks. which is scientifically backed. destiny isn't making it up lol. amazing how kristen couldn't find it lol.

[@bos9824]

Yeah because she doesn't actually engage with the analogy LOL

[@blessed_heart]

11:11 exactly! For instance when your asleep your not conscious but that doesn’t mean your dead

[@teresamcmud2605]

Sleep is an altered state of consciousness, not a lack of one.

[@elizabethhurtado2829]

I hope the rapist goes to jail.

[@i7ven]

People hope jesus returns. It's been centuries, I don't think he's coming.

[@L0kias1]

Lila got beat so bad 😂

[@patrickjennings431]

Pro Lifers are the real heroes

[@DriveInFreak]

If you are "prolife" why are you advocating for something that has, does, and will kill women?

[@Porceliankitty]

@@DriveInFreak that’s a strange question

[@DriveInFreak]

@@Porceliankitty No, it's not. What you are pushing kills women.

[@roundtabledetails3307]

Nope

[@trevornunn3285]

Prolife = pror^pe

[@littleway24601]

I wonder when *precisely* is Destiny’s gestational cut off. He says it’s not okay to kill a 20 week old fetus. Is it okay to abort a 19 week and 6 day fetus? 19 week and 6 day and 23 hour and 59 minute fetus? What if I didn’t know my LMP and the gestation is just a guessing game? Do we need to scan the fetus’s brain to see if there’s enough brain waves? His arbitrary line of personhood is ridiculous.

[@DriveInFreak]

No only is your arbitrary line of personhood ridiculous., it is not excuse for killing women via forced birth.

[@trevornunn3285]

Birth provides a clear-cut datum, up till then it needs to be the womans choice

[@roundtabledetails3307]

are you even able to think??

[@littleway24601]

@@trevornunn3285 I think the most reasonable position is that the human right to not be intentionally and directly killed begins when a human begins existing. According to science, a humans life begins at the moment of successful fertilization. If there’s so much debate, and people are so unsure, shouldn’t we err on the side of not killing something that could be a human with value?

[@littleway24601]

@@roundtabledetails3307 yes

[@sawyerhinson2640]

You’re awesome. You need to debate David Parkman next

[@JMJ132]

It was painful to listen to how Destiny does not value human life. Your pro-life arguments were valid and good, but only if the opponents have a mind that is open to the truth. Thank you for all the hard work you do, Lila!

[@trevornunn3285]

One second after conception, how much value should the embryo have? Should it have more rights on the woman's body than herself? That doesn't feel intuitive at all

[@drackoni-han13]

For the probirth movement (and yes it is probirth and not prolife) to have any credibility it needs to give satisfactory and objective answers to the following Qs....not personal opinions 1. What in nature confers intrinsic value on human life 2. Why anyone should have more say on a womans body than she herself 3. why human lifeforms should have the same level of rights all all stages in their development i.e. from conception thru to death Without satisfactory, objective answers to these Qs, the Prolife movement doesn't have a leg to stand on

[@roundtabledetails3307]

Aa.. yes, my feelings = the truth. 👍

[@tomasrocha6139]

@@trevornunn3285 The embryo has the right not to be killed, not more rights than the mother

[@tomasrocha6139]

@@drackoni-han13 Since killing innocent humans is already illegal in every other circumstance the pro-abortion movement has to explain why killing innocent humans should be legal in the case of abortion.

[@LindseyDisney]

*You might call that 4-hour debate chaotic, but I think I'll call it a street fight. In other words, it was raw.* And I was captivated by the debate the entire time I watched it. Without a professional moderator, you're going to get a lot of interruptions, especially when you have 3 alpha personalities in the room. I think both Lila Rose and Kirsten Hawkins debated very skillfully and with quick wit. And they did an excellent job defending the prolife position. And I also think Destiny proved himself to be a worthwhile opponent as he defended the pro-choice position (although he identifies as "pro-abortion"). I can understand why one wouldn't want to go into a debate that isn't professionally moderated. But nevertheless, for what it was, that debate was epic.

[@TheTSicKK]

Using Kirsten Hawkins name and skillful in the same sentence is hilarious.

[@seb7271]

Did we watch the same debate?

[@thetrib1]

ngl I agree with this take. it was hella captivating.

[@Vradica]

Please explain to me how Kirsten Hawkins debated very skillfully and quick witted... I'm being genuine, I really want to know how you came to that conclusion.. As even in my most charitable approach, I am completely unable to see it.

[@ll2323]

Kristen, skillful? 😂

[@bookishbrendan8875]

Destiny holds a functionalist position; that is, he grounds personhood in a “capacity.” I think generally speaking, the pro-life position holds a “natural-kinds” position; that is, we ground personhood primarily in the *kind* of entity a fetus is. In our view, consciousness is a consideration that lies downstream of a more fundamental consideration-whether or not the entity is the *kind of thing* whose nature it is *is* to have consciousness/rationality/etc. A human fetus is of such a kind, and thus should be granted moral consideration on that ground alone. If we drew the line for personhood at puberty, most would object that, even if subject X hasn’t yet reached puberty, the more important consideration is that subject X is the kind of entity who naturally does go through puberty. Thus we ought to take into account not whether or not the entity in question has some present faculty or function, but whether or not such a faculty or function is natural to the entity, alongside considering the entity in light of its stage of life and whether or not it is natural for the entity to *presently* possess such a faculty or not, in light of what it is. It is natural for a fetus, given its stage of life, *not* to presently have reason or full capacity for consciousness, but it still it the kind of thing whose nature it is *is* to have those capacities. However, it is not natural for a human adult to go into a coma, and so we judge the subject in light of such a context and unnatural condition.

[@ratinhoverde4227]

Great breakdown. You had a fantastic moment with him at 13:35 above. Really strong, essentially had him checkmated. Agree with the other commenters that Kristan did not do well and interfered with your ability to communicate your points. I would avoid pairing up with her in future debates.

[@JesseDriftwood]

This isn’t a checkmate, this is just Destiny being intellectually honest when discussing some of the most complex and unsettled questions in philosophy. People often conflate confidence with correctness. It doesn’t matter how confidently someone tells you they know exactly what makes a person a person, they likely don’t.

[@ll2323]

Why didn’t u post this on ur personal page??

[@skylarhillman1455]

You just interrupted him ad naseum

[@TransConservativewaifu]

Thank you, live action and pro lifers for defending life

[@ashriot6742]

Defending birth. Not life.

[@fallon-may0935]

I think if he gets his act together and you spend a good amount of time with him one on one, he would turn prolife. Continue your great work Lila

[@TheTSicKK]

You have that backwards.

[@fallon-may0935]

@@TheTSicKK I am pretty sure I don’t because Lila is the responsible one

[@Dhorpatan]

@@fallon-may0935 Is it necessary though, considering how negative human beings usually are, for you to be carrying her jockstrap and water like that?

[@fallon-may0935]

@@Dhorpatan I’m just cheering her on like others

[@Dhorpatan]

@@fallon-may0935 "Great work Lila"! Lila is the responsible one"! Damn dude, does she pay your light bill and cell phone bill?

[@samueltucker8473]

When a person is unconscious they are still people. Whether they are in a hospital or not. And thats all I know about or remeber from that conception. Thats a given and free for all.

[@Gwenny712]

As a post abortive woman I can say very loudly that during an abortion 2 people are being harmed (1more than the other) both mother and child are being harmed! I went through PASS for 17 years before I was healed. It was a horrible situation and I don’t wish it for any woman or child!

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

Other women are thankful for it

[@brob368]

Do you think if Destiny stood witness to an abortion being conducted he would be so quick to say the child isn’t human?

[@battarro]

Excellent good faith presentation of Destiny's arguments.

[@Ap3xLeg3nd]

An excellent good faith presentation of Destiny's *fallacious arguments.

[@djbidd007]

Tbh I’d like to see you and Destiny team up to take down some red-pillers 😂

[@Me-hf4ii]

Destiny seems to have conflated “brain activity” and “consciousness.” If we take his definition of brain ACTIVITY as being the sign of life - then that happens at 16 days post conception, when neurons and synapses ACTIVELY form at a rate of 250k cells per minute. By 8 weeks pregnancy, electrical activity in the brain is measurable. If he wants a consistent definition of when life begins and ends, and wants it to be BRAIN ACTIVITY (which is not the same as “the ability to deploy conscious experience” - an ability that can be impaired for months or months or years for ppl in comas, but who aren’t considered brain dead bc their autonomic system is still functioning) then he HAS to say humans after 8 weeks are persons.

[@channelcoconut6830]

And it’s still arbitrary because we can’t know with absolute certainty this state of consciousness begins. And since we’re considering the subject of life and death, we should be very sure, and life at conception is the only way to draw a line in the sand

[@shepardabraham2574]

Life has always been defined by science (not by Destiny). "How does science determine if something is living? In order for something to be classified as living, it must grow and develop, use energy, reproduce, be made of cells, respond to its environment, and adapt. While many things meet one or more of these criteria, a living thing must meet all of the criteria." - google Notice nothing about brain activity or brain or having the ability to be awake or sleep (consciousness or unconsciousness). Also, a sponge is alive, yet has no brain.

[@armrestinc1985]

He doesn't care about brain activity: he understands that people in a permanent coma can still have mild brain activity but he would not consider them people anymore as they will never wake up. All he cares about is the brain being able to deploy a conscious experience, and his argument is the research currently points to a conscious experience stemming from the communication between multiple sections of the brain and a fetus develops all necessary sections of the brain somewhere between 20-24 weeks. So to err on the side of caution, we should assume all fetuses have developed the parts necessary to deploy consciousness by 20 weeks and outlaw abortion beginning at 20 weeks.

[@RealDianaGarcia]

13:38 this is when you defeated his argument

[@RealDianaGarcia]

@@frostic824 oh your laughing? Why don’t you answer the question instead?

[@RealDianaGarcia]

@@frostic824 you’re commenting without even looking at the clip, if you’re not interested in the question, why bother commenting?

[@RealDianaGarcia]

@@frostic824 do you know what the timestamp means at the beginning of my original comment?

[@RealDianaGarcia]

@@frostic824 the fact that you didn’t answer the question at the time stamp and the fact that you’re talking about watching the whole debate both indicate to me that you don’t know what the timestamp means

[@RealDianaGarcia]

@@frostic824 so if a person loses conscientiousness, later regains all of it, but loses all of his memories, it would have been ok to kill that person during the time they were unconscious? Yes or no please

[@JohnSmith-bq6nf]

Just because a fetus has brain waves that isn’t consciousness. Also if you believe fetuses go to heaven then how can you see abortion as a total bad thing?

[@quesostuff1009]

That type of logic is really REALLY dangerous That’s the same logic as killing disabled , poor people cuz they will live a better life in heaven God does not take lightly to the taking of innocent life

[@zXDaishiXz]

The "going broke" analogy this guy used is quite compelling. How do you actually refute or square that on the pro life side? We can disagree with the main premise and take the "life is life" route, and condemn the action solely on expunging a life. But in good faith, if he is correct about consciousness, and it is what we societally value; How do you actually square that? "Reversibility" of an existing person doesn't inherently counter it; because that requires something to exist prior and for it to be reversible. Saying "something 'will' exist" implies it doesn't yet, and only validates his point about terminating 'before' it exists more. So... What's the actual counter? Do we have one without defaulting to an appeal of the potentiality of something? (that never works), or defaulting to "a life; is a life"? Because if these are the hard lines, we'll never be able to move anyone on the opposition. I liked the debate, idk if I'd call it chaotic, but your partner was probably the worst part. I would have preferred a 1 on 1 between you and this guy. PS. Also the blue hair is cringe.

[@imbonnie]

oxygen should not be considered extraordinary care. Quads live for years on a vent and want to live. Add oxygen to food and water.

[@UMMH2000]

I enjoyed both of you.

[@williamwhite1596]

The big break down will be Luke 17:2 KJV Bible !!!

[@ghostgoodall7484]

I think more people should frame abortion as the theft of someone's future. It is hard to believe but I think it's true that many people are numb to the killing but see stealing as wrong.

[@jules1896]

Lila, you were great in this debate. I was extremely disappointed in Kristen. Another commenter pointed out that destiny is nothing but a contrarian. He talks too fast and interrupts often. Never looks for common ground. He's annoying at best...

[@benwolk2028]

@@frostic824 How were they "destroyed"? I didn't observe a single one of Destiny's points that held up under scrutiny.

[@benwolk2028]

@@frostic824 That's your response? 😆 Very well-considered and persuasive.

[@robertbusek30]

@@frostic824No, we’re looking for you to actually defend your views on the debate. We’ll wait…

[@IvanGonzalez-kf4lp]

@@benwolk2028Literally all of his points withstood their scrutiny. The contention about unconscious people, or mentally disabled people was addressed by continuity of experience. Calling out the repeated use of the continuum fallacy when they would try to nail him on precise beginning for consciousness. Calling out the constant emotional appeal fallacies they would engage in. All they had to continuously fall back on was the argument from ‘potentiality’ which is ridiculous because you cannot derive current right from the potential ability to have right at some future moment.

[@robertbusek30]

@@frostic824 Oh, I have little doubt if that, given what little effort at honest discussion I’ve seen from you on past comments. I suspect that even if the OP provided a comprehensive argument about the debate, you’d dismiss it out of hand…

[@chichilinha2895]

Thank you so much for breaking this down Lila, I learned a lot from the debate and its reviews: I believe we are valuable because of our inherent humanity not solely because of the capactiy for continued consciousness as Destiny believes. If the value of humans was solely tied to consciousness we'd run into a number of problems, inconsistencies or logical holes. For example we couldn't classify it as murder if someone slips an abortion pill into the drink of a pregnant woman and she loses her pre-conscious unborn as a result, it could be at the most classified as some type of bodily harm but not as murder since according to this pro-choice logic supposedly nothing of objective value was lost no matter how much the pregnant woman had loved her preborn and pre-conscious baby before it was killed. If we don't value beings based on their mere humanity but based on their capacity for continued consciousness as Destiny suggests, we'd also have to say that we could never compromise the wellbeing of conscious beings (older humans or animals) in favour of pre-conscious humans. For example in a future where artificial technology could keep pre-conscious humans alive outside of the womb, we couldn't defend those pre-conscious preemies from attacks by violent older and therefore conscious humans or animals aiming to attack those pre-conscious preemies through stopping the human attacker / animal with potentially violent or lethal force if needed. If a pro-choicer said compromising the wellbeing of a conscious being (older human or conscious animal) would be ok to protect a pre-conscious human from violent attacks, he/she implicitly values the mere humanity of an entity more than the capacity for continued consciousness, so the pro-choicer cannot then turn around and criticize pro-lifers for valueing the mere humanity of an entity more than the capacity for continued consciousness. And of course as Lila correctly pointed out: If there was a disease/pathology where the prognosis was that the patient would lose all brain activity but thanks to new technology or medicine would almost certainly develop brain capacity again or wake up from his coma after a few months, but would then suffer from complete amnesia, would not remember anything and would be mentally at the level of a newborn and would have to relearn everything from scratch (language, motor skills etc): Even with such a prognosis, it would still be an injustice to kill this patient painlessly during his brain inactivity/coma, for example by pumping him full of pain medication, anesthetizing him, etc.

[@nellyc3669]

I think you had some good points but also destiny had some good points also, anyone who is fully on your side or fully on destiny’s side is absolutely close minded.

[@thetrib1]

I just think about if pro life or if destiny's side were given 2 years to have their laws in place when it comes to abortions how crazy it would be lol.

[@eslimeyer5621]

where is this full 4 hr video?

[@alisyathezebra]

On whatever podcast channel

[@Me-hf4ii]

Being a mother of 2, and having had a very good understanding of their personalities by about 15 weeks pregnant each, I am completely unsold that their consciousness didn’t start until 5 weeks later. There’s no way. I knew who they were, I could sense them in similar ways to how you get vibes off people in your presence. This “consciousness starts at 20 weeks” thing seems like people are attaching too much importance to a physical structure and not to the essence of what a life is. Perhaps before that structure forms completely, fetal humans are in a more dreamlike state? But they are still PERSONS well before they have whatever that brain development Destiny is attaching so much importance to.

[@DriveInFreak]

"having had a very good understanding of their personalities by about 15 weeks pregnant " How is it possible that you're not in an insane asylum? Please seek mental healthcare.

[@georgeshepard7666]

Facts don't care about your feelings huney 💅

[@Blackwallz]

Keeping fight the good fighting Sis. Agreed with everything you say.

[@Murkshadow]

But then---all you're asking for is to lower the cut-off point. You could move a lot of people down to 15 weeks if you can prove that's where the personality starts to develop. The argument is rather 0 weeks vs 20 weeks, which would completely strip you off your agency when it comes to accidental pregnancies and women could become a mother of 8 rather than just 2.

[@charlessynowiec3876]

@@georgeshepard7666fact is killing a baby is wrong. doesn’t matter 1 wk or after 20. that’s where y’all get facts wrong

[@michaeldromes3948]

I'm not sure where i exactly i land on the issue, but the "at conception" is just as insane as 9-months abortions to me. Up to 50% of all known and unknown pregnancies end in natural miscarriage and that's with modern medicine, often without the woman even noticing (so much for the preciousness of life or "souls"). I can't even imagine the insane social reconstructioning we'd have to do to treat all of those discarded embryos/zygotes/fetuses as dead human beings. Same with IVF clinics who need to make like a dozen fertilized eggs for each patient since the implantation isn't always successful on first try. To think the doctors there kill like 10 "children" for each successful pregnancy is just idiotic, let alone to actually want to legally prosecute them. Destiny's 20weeks might be little too much for me personally but he's much closer to a sensible middle ground which society already is, always was and always will be structured around.

[@jayharrison6552]

Lila roses 🌹 hi 👋 😊

[@curiousrap]

I think Lila is a good-ish person but it is clear she is owning her own platform and not doing any middle ground with Destiny. The best showcase of it, and simplistic, is on minute 14 she refuses to show rest of clip because it would hurt her platform and may cause her audience to think more middle ground. She would need to do 1v1 with Destiny because it is clear at the moment she lost people because of her non-middle ground

[@hervedavidh4117]

Dear Lila, the debate was messy, but you did great ! One on One, you would have exposed Destiny's flawed arguments way better.

[@jonnyrondo507]

How about you give us some of this 'flawed arguments' Can't wait

[@hervedavidh4117]

@@jonnyrondo507 You'll wait a lot.

[@jonnyrondo507]

@@hervedavidh4117 I know, I so know.

[@TexasAndyAquatics]

Now now let's be realistic. Lila interrupted as much if not more. I was incredibly disappointed with both women and their purposeful ignorance when it comes to analogies and hypothetical. To claim things like, his examples aren't exact comparisons, even after him stating it's a hypothetical example is just a bad faith rebuttable. I'm def ofan of the destiny guy but he was atleast consistent, over and over having to annoyingly repeat himself honestly dodging their"gotcha" attempts . I mean they continuously kept trying to twist his words. Moral of the story as a strict pro life person I wish the ladies would have just stuck to the topic at hand because for the first time, the conferences were behaving like the crazy blue haired bro choice ppl usual do. Let's get that round 2 going but 1v.1,,..

[@purposefilled-forever]

Well done Lila, you are making waves and I pray that God continues to have his hand over you as you navigate these debates with so much grace!

[@Taleighna]

you guys are absolutely amazing

[@capcaptainmycaptain4771]

Mmmm maybe just Lula, Kristen was a dead weight to the whole debate

[@quesostuff1009]

This recap was helpful but you can sense the damage control I liked the redo with Trent more

[@matthewhaynes7161]

Honestly, you two were one of the worst examples of pro-life and if anything, you set the movement back. To be fair... A lot of this could be laid at the feet of Kristan who should never be allowed to debate again.

[@kellibryant707]

Brilliant. I have always been pro life. I love what you do and wish I could be a more prominent part of your movement. God bless you and everyone who supports life. ❤

[@Strawberryfreeze3000]

I am pro life as well but I’m starting to shift bc I tired of seeing stories of mothers killing their live babies, starving them, abusing them, letting a man abused them or raped them…so many sick stories bc the mother didn’t want the baby😢….abortion sound so much better ..at least the baby wouldn’t remember it or actually has nerves to feel it .. I just wish people: men and women would protect themselves at all cost if they don’t want kids .. the world would be a better place

[@jamesdanielleashworth876]

Please if you have a rematch ask Trent Horn or Monica Snyder from secular prolife to join you. I think they have the right temperament to debate destiny. I think especially Monica could be an asset as they can’t use religious arguments against her.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

You need 2 people to debate Destiny on a do-over? Rollo needed that as well...he still lost.

[@thetrib1]

Would love for you and Destiny to debate this 1v1 for sure. With a legit moderator as well, no offense brian lol. But...I would like the next step of the pro life world view to be argued as well. Imagine all the potential mothers being jailed for premeditated murder or conspiring against a fetus. how does that work if pro lifers get there way when it comes to abortion, and only on abortion, cause I assume the goal is that a girl or woman would not get pregnant unless they are going for a child.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

All those who debate Destiny always want a do-over

[@dazzer_]

"If was in a coma, and then I woke up, would it be ok to kill me". WHAT???? LOL There is some real argumentative gymnastics here. If you're having to reach that far, and jump though so many hoops to prove your points, I feel you have a pretty weak argument.

[@DriveInFreak]

If you truly care about protecting life, why would you advocate for something that kills women?

[@anunez3450]

My grandmother was on life support and her tongue was out and her body swelled. Try sticking your tongue out for 5min it is possible but it is uncomfortable. Now for those who don't get swollen legs try sitting on your leg even after getting the urge to move it to regain circulation. Now imagine going through that for years that's not life that is suffering. But to destroy the connection between a mother and child because the government says that's what being a women is all about when they can't even define what a women is anymore is beyond me.

[@fashionforty]

Reading these comments this side is really in another world. Lila copium will continue to be your friend.

[@TransConservativewaifu]

Hello

[@christophecamus8410]

Why this gentleman has a doll/mannequin next to him during the debate.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

So that you would comment

[@skagenpige88]

Actually I think what is the most important is that there is a reason you can kill a pregnancy and not a born person....sometime your allowed to kill a born person too, death penalty, war etc...but there is no mother for a born person that is allowed to kill that person for the same reasons a pregnant woman is.

[@Emanem-mp7oh]

Loved how Kristan answered that Chapelle clip.

[@kylefredriks5068]

You lost. There's the break down.

[@garystahler9112]

Lol. No she didn't.

[@kylefredriks5068]

@@garystahler9112 you're probably a kid. They clearly lost the debate

[@garystahler9112]

@@kylefredriks5068 Callong me a kid shows your immaturity

[@kylefredriks5068]

@@garystahler9112 your response doesn't exactly say I'm wrong

[@garystahler9112]

@@kylefredriks5068 umm. You used an ad hominen attacks.

[@Chingon559]

The 2 to 1 format was too chaotic for my liking.

[@pioneerprepper2048]

I think what is very very improtant to point out is not that the baby between 0-20 weeks doesn't have brain activity it could be that we dont have the equipment to pick it up yet. If you ask someone 200 years ago if a baby in utero has a heartbeat they could say "absolutely not, weve never geard it". But its not that the baby didn't have a heart beat but rather we didnt yet have equipment to prove it

[@JesseDriftwood]

Sure, but the same can be said for literally any argument. Someone could say that the highest level of heaven awaits the aborted fetuses, that they are gods most beloved, we just don’t have the ability to test for it yet. This is why we follow whatever the best current evidence is, and make sure we’re open to changing positions of better evidence arises later on. Also the argument isn’t that they have “no brain activity” but that the brain hasn’t yet developed the necessary parts yet in order for what we do understand about consciousness to take place.

[@HarambetheWhite]

Honestly, I could only listen to it for 45 minutes. It was way too annoying to listen in on with all the interpretations.

[@ssaun2179]

Wait how long did this useless debate go on for?

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

​@@ssaun2179 Wasn't useless. She lost.

[@ssaun2179]

@@wyleecoyotee4252 It really doesn't matter who "won." the abortion issue is settled, the supreme court has decided. Lets all move on

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

@@ssaun2179 Doubtful it will ever be settled in the USA

[@ssaun2179]

@@wyleecoyotee4252 well there might be some movement here and there on how long along in pregnancy it will be allowed but for the most part blue states will allow it, red states will ban it. Its settled, its over, everyone needs to move on.

[@TransConservativewaifu]

❤

[@kateuli8481]

To add to the Very Beginning of the video and your clarification of ectopic pregnancy removal Not being an abortion - Too Many excuse abortion as clumped in with Miscarriage. Sadly, the medical world defines a Miscarriage, the Lack of choice in the natural death of one's own child in the womb, as a "spontaneous abortion". Beyond insensitive. Any circumstance where the preborn child is dying or already dead and No reasonable intervention would be deemed safe or effective, the removal of said Dying or Dead preborn child IS, appropriately called, a miscarriage. Abortion requires a Choice and a still growing preborn Life, which must be imposed upon with removal/poisoning/dismembering, and, therefore, death of the preborn child within the uterus of his/her mother.

[@PEoplearepeople]

Women seek equality to men: which men are they seeking equality with? Do they seek equality with men who pay child support? No. Do they seek equality with men who are considered dead beats unless they work their butts off to provide? No Who women seeks equality with are men who chose to reject their partner and/or their children through abandonment. Women seek to be equal to the very men who cause harm to women and children. Wouldn’t it be better to seek respect for men whoDONT abandon their children… by imitating the behavior of good men rather than imitating losers who abandon their partners and children for convenience??? I think women can do better than to seek to imitate liars, thrives, rapists and dead beat dads?

[@drackoni-han13]

If you think the banning abortion debate is about this, you are sorely mistaken. Convenience is but a mere subset of the total demands for an abortion

[@jonnyrondo507]

If anyone knows what this weirdo is talikng about get in touch...

[@U.S.Dept.ofHoeflation]

DESTINY is being sarcastic don't be fooled

[@abrahamtardiff8673]

You got shredded lila. I'm pro life but this debate did not go well for you

[@Dhorpatan]

How did she get shredded and by who?

[@aceraphael]

ah yes you are pro life..I am sure

[@allocatedfunds]

9:24 destiny checked out at this point in the debate

[@bettytigers]

Positive discussions, need positive follow up! ❤

[@Trump2024Kentucky]

It should be called “murder”.

[@ThomB1031]

Destiny is a fool on many subjects...

[@noneofyourbusiness9635]

People will say anything to justify and not take accountability for their unjust actions. They resort to extreme cases that don’t apply to them. It shows that women are no more compassionate than men and just as selfish. You would also be hard pressed to convince people to abort a baby of a rich and famous person. But infidelity and one-night stands, or he ain’t father material abortions run rapid.

[@slinky117]

2:28 at four weeks the baby can feel you rub your belly

[@tyronea8509]

The context KZbin added.... "end of a pregnancy" Too bad thet won't debate

[@TopViewFar]

Destiny is .... meh

[@basedautistic6021]

Destiny literally said in his video about Ben Shapiro with lex Friedman that “liberals should be less afraid of the word ‘eugenics’.” Just gonna leave that there…

[@savagecabbage138]

"just gonna leave this comment here that frames him the worst possible light while giving no context into the preposition in which that comment was made while being in a completely separate interview so we can discount his argument in a different discussion different topic." how does this comment get likes? we all literally practice eugenics to some extent in our sexual reproduction practices. thats why you dont have a kid

[@bos9824]

Lila Rose thinks you're still the same person after someone replaces your brain. Lost the debate after that

[@ryanhoward2031]

I’m pro life and I thought Destiny made you two look ridiculous. It was actually pretty embarrassing. You couldn’t tell when he was being sarcastic, you can’t handle any hypotheticals. You literally said “Destiny there is no button that does that” No shit!!! He was using a hypothetical to make a point! You lost all credibility with me.

[@tonyfilla2246]

There's know such thing as pro choice.its ethier prolife or pro-abortion.

[@DriveInFreak]

If you are "prolife" why are you advocating for something that has, does, and will kill women?

[@undeadproductions7772]

@@DriveInFreakBecause in a pro-life society, both the life of the mother and the baby are protected and cared for. Measures would be taken to keep all parties involved healthy. Ever hear the phrase, “love them both”? It’s a common prolife phrase Unlike pro-abortion who does not consider the life of the child. And would actively take the life of the unborn for any reason if society went their way. “My body, My choice” reflects this way of philosophy.

[@DriveInFreak]

@@undeadproductions7772 What child? Do you mean all of the children that will die do to people like you forcing them to give birth?

[@DriveInFreak]

@@undeadproductions7772 By the way something: the USA is not a "pro-life society" as most people in the US are against the government forcing people to give birth against their will. You are not in any way shape, or from "pro-life" was what you are pushing will and has killed people.

[@undeadproductions7772]

@@DriveInFreak C-Sections and premature deliveries can be done to protect both the health/lives of the mother and the unborn child. I assume you are not open to that though. I assume Abortion is the only way for you.

[@benwolk2028]

Based on his own premises, Destiny was consistent. But his premises were badly flawed, as Lila pointed out repeatedly. Moreover, his broad view of life seems fundamentally cruel and ugly, i.e. his openness to eugenics. He also has a tendency to fall back on vulgar shock-value comments when his back is against the wall.

[@roundtabledetails3307]

how is his premises were badly flawed??

[@benwolk2028]

@@roundtabledetails3307 Primarily his premise that personhood is inextricably linked to consciousness.

[@roundtabledetails3307]

@@benwolk2028 so if we have a person that we remove consciousness from, would you still call it a person?

[@benwolk2028]

@@roundtabledetails3307 Of course. What else would they be?

[@orphancrippler9526]

@@benwolk2028 a bag of meat and bones.

[@devinkelly3135]

You go girl!