Louise Perry: The Case Against the Sexual Revolution

[@aleksandrasuder3433]

I have to say that I really appreciate the conversation that took place here. It confirms what my female friends and I often talk about but feel like if we expressed it openly we would be shamed into being prude or old-fashioned, not going along with the liberal idea of feminism. Also, despite some people saying in the comments that they don't agree with the trigger warning, I'd say it is respectful of you to have it, thank you. Also, I like when you have guests from all sorts of areas and not focusing on just productivity, I greatly enjoy finding out something unexpected and valuable through the guests you invite. :)

[@mpakakas3518]

As a father of a daughter: if you don't have the inner power to defend yourself from the hivemind, why get involved in a personal relationship with a man and even have sex? if you can not do the easy part and be your true self with those who, most likely, will laugh when you fall, why get yourself in a precarious situation, completely naked, with a stranger on top of you, not really knowing how he feels, or what he wants? First become able to distinguish the poison various political agendas are spewing in your brain (for reasons that have nothing to do with your well being) and then build yourself as a proper woman with "real materials". Values. Then go out and see how you fare. Be bold and rude when you need to: if you say you don't want to and they say you are prude look them in the eyes and say "are you gonna be in my place on the table when the abortion comes? are you gonna pay for it?" and when the node negatively: "then STFU"!! And you are done with those libt@rd sorry excuses of friends. PS. You can never reason with libt@rds. If you could, they wouldn't exist. Take care.

[@ciobalina7445]

To me it seems as if women simply don't understand the purpose of feminism and just assume that current trends promoted by certain women represent feminism. The whole point is that women should act in their own interest and I don't get how focusing all their attention as a woman on satisfying men sexually is feminist. It just seems so counter-intuitive. Anything that goes against the majority of women's interests, biology, nature etc...is by common sense NOT feminist. It's a mess....unless this is exactly how women's nature is (which I doubt, but what do I know?). A lot of it seems to be about women's relationship with men and for women like me, who are lesbians, it's desastrous. I don't feel much has changed in society at the level of the frame, except the fact that now as a woman I can at least TRY to have a career and TRY to live without being forced to marry a guy and be his "mommy"/"maid"/provider of sexual gratification. But yes, as a woman if you don't marry a man and have his kids, you lose a lot of social currency. What I get from all this is that women simply can't organize themselves as a group to protest for rights that they actually need as a group. The attractive ones want to be taken care of by rich or upper middle class men, so want "traditional" gender roles...other want independence for various reasons (lesbians, less attractive or not attractive at all), others ..are just following ANY trend as long as it gives them social currency. The biggest issue I see with women as a group is that they don't seem to have enough individualism to focus in what they REALLY want and take the social loss of status. ...instead of always trying to follow social norms, even when it personally affects them

[@heathersnyder8789]

Welcome to womanhood. Shame is the game no matter what. Darn if you don’t, dang if you do.

[@aniadivina]

Polyamory is a luxury belief: “As luxury goods have become cheaper, elite class signals their elite status through luxury beliefs. A belief that confers status on the elite people, and costs of it are carried by poor people.” This is why I am not a fan of online dating.

[@pristinepodcasts]

This is the interview that probably got me thinking the most so far and it make me realise that "feminism isn't feminism". I loved hearing the part where you contrast "what people say" and "how people really behave" which does indeed indicate that what is being said doesn't line up with the belief! This gives me food for thought for sure.

[@jasonu3741]

Sometimes im reminded that there are probably young people who grew up in a world where the current narrative is considered the truth, if your 40+ then most of the "what people say vs what they believe" is plainly obvious too you because you are from the generations where what people secretly believe was the standard truth. for example the whole "tell men not to sexually assault instead of telling girls not to drink around them" is essentially "look both ways before crossing the street" because regardless of the light being green and that people SHOULD obey traffic lights and the rules of the road at the end of the day it is your life in the balance so a bit of caution is pertinent.

[@suri4Musiq]

You should have more conversation about this Ali! You are stepping out of your comfort zone, which is great to see you grow :) much love

[@oliversissonphone6143]

I feel like these two would make a cute couple

[@mbahkopi3584]

@@oliversissonphone6143 😅😂✌

[@doctorcrafts]

Idiotic comment

[@e.r.7251]

This has been really eye-opening for me (as a woman). This sort of sums up what I've been feeling like for a while, but never have been able to articulate. I'm 24 and in my generation, casual sex is seen as the pathway to a relationship. Often the men decide this. I don't enjoy casual sex that much and I've been ghosted by men who were extremely interested in me during the first date after I didn't have sex with them.

[@rw7804]

And that's awful! Because I am Gen X I have never had sex outside of a relationship and there was no expectation for me to do so when I was your age.

[@voccessbg5396]

Casual sex is not the pathway to a relationship. It never was. Any exceptions confirm this rule.

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

If people want to masturbate to porn or have sex with multiple partners, as long as they are open and honest about it, as a form of entertainment/pleasure, then it's none of your or the government's business. This is not like spending BILLIONS of dollars on churches / religion, who SHOULD pay taxes, but don't, or billions on making a trillion movies and tv shows, for entertainment. All THAT form of entertainment is an INSANE burden of time energy & money.

[@curtishancock432]

​@@theultimatereductionist7592are you defending the porn industry? 😂😂 People who says this usually are addicted to porn.

[@if7363]

You would be surprised by how many would actually be open to masturbate to porn or have sex with multiple partners. Like really very few​@theultimatereductionist7592

[@shabbytripathi-yp5bs]

How politely she explained bout'y everything asked by Ali I really appreciate it the way she responded to all of Ali questions

[@ChrisInmanDrums]

I’ve found myself listening to more and more discussions on these sort of topics, simply through some of my favourite podcasters having these types of discussions, and despite my expectations it’s becoming an area of interest at this point. Huge congrats on this conversation Ali, staying open-minded and rationale on a topic of high controversy is something the world needs more of.

[@nialldoherty4106]

Going tbh, the discussion around why sex was special was incredibly frustrating, mainly because they couldn't give a better reason that sex was special other than most people just feel it is. It's so easy to give a good arguement before why sex is special. The primary one being that it's the one of the few acts humans can do which brings life into the world, and all the responsibility that comes with that. You dont need it to be verified by religion or science the mere fact of its purpose should explain to you why it's special.

[@tsreiki]

Yes and not to mention that sex brings you close to someone intimately and connects you energetically.. ok I admit I am one of those women that doesn't like casual sex, is it obvious? Lol

[@ashleycampion9178]

Those questions at the end 🤯. Yes, we do deserve to be angry at the culture. Powerful stuff.

[@elliejeanroyden]

This was such an incredible episode, I screen recorded so many bits to save to my second brain!

[@aliabdaal]

Glad you liked it :)

[@kikiursalone]

The crossover I didn't know I needed! Thank you to Ali and Louise! ❤

[@maam-yj8ph]

Probably a good sign if all the different political groups are mad about it. Hopefully that means some new ground is being uncovered.

[@omerdoganci1802]

Wow, i have recently read her book and found highly convincing. Glad to see her here too

[@jamessgian7691]

My daughter gets married next month. Catholic. Waiting for marriage. Very happy for her waiting for the sacrament. Sex is sacred.

[@donut_life12]

I'm not a catholic but have been studying it recently. I like the idea of marriage being a sacrament, you are supposed to be God's representative of his love to your spouse.

[@skylinefever]

I have heard that theology of the body works out better than hellfire and brimstone purity sermons.

[@sabrinashahab795]

If sex is like playing squash , then violence is also like playing squash if two or more consenting individuals agree . We could bring back the dueling system which existed even in the 19th century . We can also bring back Suthi ( widow burning ) if the woman agrees to be burnt to death

[@koalabandit9166]

I've often thought that the dueling system wasn't such a bad idea myself... Not too keen on the suthi though :)

[@sabrinashahab795]

@@koalabandit9166 Yes , one may disagree if it involved the death of husbands , fathers , sons and brothers . Given that it was a point of honour to accept a dual , one could be participating in an unequal match and get killed ,

[@koalabandit9166]

@@sabrinashahab795Certainly. But the alternative is to participate in an unequal match without accepting it, which is what happens now. Or crying in impotence like a baby. Violence isn't the way to settle differences, but it's the only way to make sure that your differences aren't settled for you. In the meantime, in an actual duel, no matter how unequal it is, there are two guys with a sword and a lot can happen, so it's unlikely for one to propose it unless it's a serious matter. It is a point of honour to accept it because there is honour in it, even if you lose. It's not a thing for weasels and bullies.

[@jrd33]

Have you heard of boxing, wrestling and martial arts? Some people are very happy to be violent towards people who share the same hobby/profession. As a society we are generally fine with this, despite the risks of injury.

[@alexpotts6520]

Comment towards the end: "I don't think the apps are very good." The thought strikes me that the apps are very good at what they're designed to do, but what they are designed to do is not what women want from them. A dating app does not maximise engagement by getting its users into long-term relationships, since that would amount to cannibalising its own user base. Rather, the route to a successful business is an endless torrent of swipes, punctuated with just enough actual dates to keep people motivated to stay on the platform. It's much easier to monetise a sexual marketplace where one-night stands are the norm, and unfortunately where the big bucks go the culture tends to follow...

[@angelbethany93]

I’ve been waiting for this episode since you discussed the book

[@colinpatterson5897]

Most of this is common sense but interesting to hear verbalised. The part about women making themselves more vulnerable by getting too drunk is obvious. Of course you should be able to wear a Rangers scarf in a Celtic pub without getting a punch in the jaw, but the reality is, you’re likely to get a punch in the jaw.

[@firstspar]

Really interesting. At the two hour mark, she criticises the effectiveness of online/app dating. Explaining it is not great for quality. Enforcing the idea that who ever the women is, regardless of her quality, only want the top x percentile and will not settle for less. Even when they may be of the median range if not less.

[@robinellis6]

Really appreciate you getting someone different on, Louise is awesome; from a personal POV, I'm not sure trigger warnings are needed here, given the title and intro!

[@mjh277]

I think for topics like r*pe it’s not always the worst idea to have a warning. I don’t think most warnings are a good idea though

[@KathySierraVideo]

I think the pros/cons of “trigger warnings” is almost always going to favor a “when in doubt, do it.” It is literally the LEAST one can do when addressing topics - however sensitively - that are known to be traumatizing to some people. And be learned the hard way that just because something seems trivial or at least “should not need a warning” to me does NOT mean my brain represents everyone - or even ANYone - other than me. Especially in topics where there’s staggeringly high rates of people who’ve experienced trauma. Sexual assault topics - again, however gently/sensitively/seemingly “clinically” discussed - is a “no-brainer” for a TW. I’ve been fortunate to have people reach out to kindly tell me when something I thought NOT-triggering actually was. And again, even my first thought was, “that’s ridiculous”, I then had to accept, “not to some people.” Is there a line to draw? Sure. A straw man arg might be, “so… somebody might be triggered by the color purple!” But that’s not what trigger warnings are for. It’s for things most reasonably intelligent people can do five minutes of Googling to discover this is significant problem for a large enough group, and costs a moderately compassionate person nothing to include 🤷🏼‍♀️. That’s just my personal view, as one who still doesn’t “get” the triggering thing, but accepts that it’s not my call what others have experienced. I just think of it like basic kindness, general thoughtfulness. The problem is some people call it out as “virtue signaling.” To me, that’s like saying using the words “please” and “thank-you” are “virtue signaling.” No, just basic thoughtfulness.

[@robinellis6]

@@KathySierraVideo this is fair - ultimately it's for the creator to make the call. Each person's experience is different, but to some of Louise's points - there's a difference between designing for average, and designing for the individual. Maybe the question here is something akin to "is Ali designing for the average of his audience, or specific individuals?'" I guess the intent behind my comment was to mainly show support the podcast (which I loved, likewise I loved Louise's book), but also question whether there is a purpose to the trigger warning - i.e. something I liked, and something I was curious about.

[@NotLookingBackNow]

Hey Ali 👋 I started watching your personal channel last night, but found more of your work by checking out your website (love it, by the way). I've got to say, I'm impressed! Going deep, in this day and age, isn't too common -- especially on taboo topics. So, thank you for this engaging conversation, it was refreshing. I'll be around for more.

[@annaszabo_hu]

It’s so funny to hear Ali say “stuff” and “you know” soo much this interview given that he is so well-spoken usually ❤ thanks for asking difficult questions, we would all feel awkward if we were in your shoes

[@JakobROsser]

I’m a frequent viewer of Perry’s content on her Maiden Mother Matriarch channel. I agree, she wasn’t as articulate here as she normally is. But, she pushed her pov, and didn’t waiver. To me, that’s what’s important.

[@doctorcrafts]

Not what was said

[@angellover02171]

You mean he is out his depth.

[@lann7669]

I appreciate Louise so much for speaking out. I am so tired of society presenting fake narratives about women's sexuality. I meet so many men who seem completely clueless about the fact that women aren't as casual and detached regarding sex as they are and seem surprised that women are hurt when an intimate relationship doesn't turn into long-term commitment. Though I am not sure if they are completely unaware of differences between genders or it's an act they put to feel less guilty about following their selfish needs with little or no consideration towards someone else.

[@KadirPeker]

Love the talk, all 2 hours of it. Perry explains everything so gently and convincingly. On an unrelated note, are the chairs too uncomfortable, 'cause she seemed that way throughout constantly shifting (just joking though :).

[@johanna4456]

This was a really interesting talk. I can relate to many many things she said.

[@miertcsinalodhatudodhogynemjo]

Gosh I needed this conversation to hear 🙏

[@PokhrajRoy.]

On an unrelated note, I Stan the Marques Brownlee Hoodie.

[@theunscriptedsuccessstory8898]

11 minutes in and I want to read the book!

[@annaszabo_hu]

best marketing strategy istg

[@camilamathias94]

amazing podcast!!

[@Tamar-sz8ox]

Sex and money are 2 of the most powerful forces on the planet 🌎. They can bring both great positivity or extreme darkness into your life and the world . They should be handled with greater care . Do not open up the door to chaos Eg jealousy , hurt, sexually transmitted diseases , unwanted pregnancies, false accusations , addictions, abuse and manipulation..and on and on

[@perpetualgains6559]

I agree, I'm the only girl out of seven children, and I heard my father tell my brothers time and a time again, while growing up "life is difficult, however, it would be less hard if you know how to control your lower nature, and your finances", because If you're out of control in those two areas, you're bound to start having other problems".

[@Tamar-sz8ox]

@@perpetualgains6559your dad is/was wise & honest

[@firstspar]

Nice one on getting this interview done Ali

[@debbiedawson8109]

I loved it each time Louise stumped him with a new idea he said ‘Mmmm…’ 😀 and he couldn’t really respond. She’s great. Such fantastic commentary from Louise - she’s thought of everything.

[@abigailmendoza2502]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@AbdullahJahangirBhatti]

I always love that "50-50 sub non-sub ration just just for fun"

[@henkkelderman4182]

Why don’t the msm media have intelligent and well informed women like Louise Perry at work?

[@zoerockett8341]

Really appreciate this conversation

[@mikeanderson4421]

What an interesting conversation! I don't usually listen to a video this long, but this, and the insights in it, were very interesting. I have one question: Louise said, (around 1:41): "A man who rapes a drunk woman is the only person at fault." Surely, sex between a sober man and an woman too drunk to give consent would be rape, but how should we view the scenario where both are "too drunk"? Is the man still considered to be at fault? What does the law say about this?

[@mickbenson9161]

Louise is lovely

[@JJmikra]

Good interview!!!👍

[@jonah_da_mann]

30:25 - The woman Louise is referring to is Elly Arrow: kzbin.info/door/WlLdZ24IfDIPxth02Nt8Xg

[@MiguelSanchez-tu2en]

It's not Elly. It's Bettina Flitner. Elly is just an outspoken critic of the sex trade who shared the work of Bettina. But yeah, Elly's work is also great imo.

[@sarahfranco6802]

Interesting

[@wendellbabin6457]

2:01:53 DON'T forget the findings that there is ALSO a pattern in who these offenders choose to exploit/victimize. In studies they picked the SAME ONES. Often who had already been victims of rape or (attempted) and OTHER assaults or Domestic Abuse.

[@sabrinashahab795]

If sex is like playing squash , what is the problem with landlords requesting sex in exchange of rent. As pointed out , those who disagree with this exchange , however support the sex industry including prostitution

[@skylinefever]

The landlord makes the lease contract. If the contract calls for sex, people can choose not to sign.

[@jonahtwhale1779]

Men - has your female partner ever asked for your prior verbal consent to sex and intimacy? It is rare at best. Or do women interpret your body language? There is a legal term for men who infer consent from actions and body language - that term is rapist! Do most women obey the rules of consent they insist men obey? Or are most women rapists?

[@jasonu3741]

Even though I largely agree with Louise, this right here is what makes some of her beliefs around consent to be purposeless jargon. because both men and women fail her impossible consent test

[@SpeakEnglishWithLina]

That is a great conversation!

[@nickbarber2080]

So...women can have access to sex,but not necessarily to romance. Very true...but from a male perspective this illustrates the "you don't know how lucky you are" aspect to the men left behind in the modern world,who have little chance of either. Before the inevitable "it's not a competition" comments...I know that...but which is,to society,more likely to be a problem?

[@theimaginarium]

All quite true--it should be noted that the "2 modes of sexuality" does still apply to women, though it manifests quite differently. Details are in Buss's work.

[@timewarptrio11]

I appreciate the trigger warning. You can just skip it if you don’t like it!

[@annaszabo_hu]

this.

[@narunoir9767]

As soon as they mentioned the phrase "trigger warning", I knew this was not for me. What happened to words can't hurt me. I swear it's a generation with the constitution of tissue paper.

[@2o7o7dragon]

1:23 Ali, this is your third video that I've watched in at least twice as many months... I'll subscribe when those numbers flip thank you.

[@starlightbright]

Listened to this and deleted my dating app profile 😅

[@catherineeASMR]

I wish there would be more nuance than "men are different to women". Like, it's general, there are plenty of women who don't fall into the category even if what is said is *generally* true. Trying to paint an entire sex/gender with the same brush is impossible because human beings aren't machines controlled solely by whether they're a boy or girl, they're individual. Trying to put men and women into boxes based on their gender is my least favourite thing about society (mainly because people try to shove you in a girl/woman box from the time you're born until you die and I have never fit, though I am still very much a woman!). Although for health reasons/risks I do agree with some parts of this message.

[@skylinefever]

This is why I liked the LP vs Aella arguments. Aella actually bothers to face the fact that statistics have outliers, and such people need to be treated like someone.

[@aelthwyn2]

The mention of sex as rent lead my mind down what will be an unpopular path for sure, but I think it needs to be said that even within a committed relationship Louise's point is extremely important that whoever has a higher desire for sex and a higher threshhold for disgust needs to exercise self-control for the sake of the person who has less desire. When loyalty in a relationship appears to depend on the man's sexual satisfaction, in essence a woman feels as though she is buying stability with sex, sometimes she may be into it and other times she's just doing her duty. When you think about it, it's just a step further than renting a house via sex, you're renting a partner, home, and family with it, and this kind of undertone can severely affect a woman's ability to feel mutual pleasure in her sexual relationship, because there's this little voice in the back of her head saying if you're not in the mood for it every time he is you're jeopardizing your security in this relationship, if you're not up for everything he wants to try he'll view you as boring and go find someone else. It can result in feeling you're disposable because it's not your personality, or shared values, etc. that drives his commitment, but rather your body parts which can be easily found in other women, so you have to do this for the sake of your life together, for the sake of your kids having stability at home. A woman's driving concern for her children's wellbeing can create a HUGE power disparity between herself and her partner whom she feels she must please in order to guarantee her kids won't loose the advantage of a two parent home. When a man's sexual desires become damaging to his partner in one way or another, but she doesn't feel like it's valid or safe to say no, she will end up sacrificing herself for his pleasure in the name of preserving the family, and will feel trapped in abuse. The cultural view that a man has a right to whatever sex he wants in marriage and is justified in divorcing a woman who leaves him frustrated, but that a woman doesn't have a right to place limits on her husband's sexual apetite to the kind of sex or ammount of sex she wants is so so dangerous for women and for the children whose homes are broken because of this. I see this attitude in both secular and religious groups and it needs to be re-examined.

[@DeepDivewithAliAbdaal]

Sponsored by Huel - go to www.huel.com/deepdive and with your first order you’ll get a free t-shirt and shaker. Sponsored by Trading 212 - download the Trading 212 app trading212.com/promocodes/ALI and use the promo code "ALI" after signing up and depositing to receive a random free share worth up to £100. This is not financial advice. Investments can fall and rise. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Other fees may apply*. Capital is at risk. Sponsored by WeWork - visit www.we.co/ali and use the code ‘ALI’ at checkout to redeem 50% off your first booking.

[@StimParavane]

Freedom without responsibility...you go girl.

[@mallorypaddock163]

I don't know that I agree that men cheat mainly because they're horny. I watch too much of the Delony Show to believe that there isn't more to it than that. But in general I think this conversation is a very thoughtful way to view the contradictions in our belief systems regarding "feminism" or "femininity in sexuality"

[@wendellbabin6457]

46:00 Thailand is an interesting example. But, AS USUAL, the ONLY "issue" being discussed or redressed is it's affect on WOMEN being in the sex industry. And the way she just breezes over the "surprisingly high" number of men who buy sex. The fact that there ARE so many is rarely even considered unless there is a rise in Criminal activity as it affects women or broader Society. I am sure the vast bulk of these "Clients" would rather there were any other "option" for them. Especially those men for whom there will likely NEVER be any OTHER option. She describes the type earlier in comment about the photos of the purchasers and the Disgust Factor etc. Similar sort of sentiment most likely Hilary Clinton was REALLY talking about in her now-famous, infamous?, "Deplorables" comment. So. Are we going to really go through yet another "legalization" debate over former vices that are increasingly being used to COPE with Economic and Civilizational Decline, or are we going to ACTUALLY help those who are suffering the WORST consequences of it? You know, the deplorable losers? I am thinking just like in every other time period in History is the most likely. Let them eat cake. Or smoke legal weed and visit the local cat-house or call girl when they finally scrape together enough cash from their 3 "McJobs" and side hustles to do even that. Legal or not. Until we can Gin up a quick war to "Solve" the issue.

[@Alex-tu1zy]

The majority of women who have to sell themselves for money face trauma and abuse regularly. In developing countries, these are impoverished women with no other options.

[@skylinefever]

Modern corporate America needs to meet 1789 France.

[@wendellbabin6457]

1:08:03 I remember in my youth, back when dinosaurs roamed the local "Meat Market", a half drunk conversation between dudes contemplating their "closing time" options one describe this phenomen with..."closing time, or close the deal before someone else does".

[@TheNightBadger]

I don't like how Louise frames male sexuality historically - most men paired off with and had sex with one women only in their lifetimes. The 'sexual revolution' benefited a small number of good looking men who didn't want to settle - men in general have never had the opportunity to have sex how she describes. She then describes German men who are very unattractive using prostitutes 'because they have to', and says they 'coerce women with money'. No - the women are already making themselves available to get money from men for something they themselves can get for free. The men are being coerced in that situation. If the woman was not a prostitute, and a man offered her money for sex, _that_ would be coercion. I would just once like to hear Louise acknowledge that there are aspects to being a woman that are _better_ than being a man, and then say how those areas should be helped by adding extra laws and different standards for men? I hear 'ugly men pay for sex and that victimises women', what I don't hear is 'ugly men can't get sex but they are living beings who have needs too, so here's how society should help them...' I just hear 'criminalise the buyers'. That's great - you're looking out for women, but what about the needs those men are trying to meet? She even recognises they wouldn't pay if they didn't have to - so why should they have to? What's society going to do about it? I'm being a little facetious, but it's how she talks about every negative aspect of being a woman, so why shouldn't we do the same for men? _"It means that the people who won the sexual revolution are high status men... not necessarily all men"_ - No, _most_ men lost out, many many more women won out. It's not losing to retain all the choices, but not have the results you want from the choices you get to make. Men - most of them - don't have the results _or_ the choices. Women have more choice, more opportunity, and total reproductive rights - the fact they aren't choosing wisely doesn't make them losers. A game rigged in your favour that you play badly, but you could win with different strategy really isn't the same thing as a game rigged against you that you can't win at all. Re: Aziz Ansari - completely disagree. She was free to leave at any time. He committed no crime. Acting like he somehow he kind of did though technically not is just bizarre. Louise sounds like she wants laws based on shifting sands of subjective fluctuating emotions. Women themselves will *never* be held to the same standards - only men. _"In every possible way women lose out on this arrangement"_ - Not mentioning that they have mate selection opportunities to do what they want? No mention of the men whose lives have been destroyed by allegations after the fact - something women _never_ have to worry about? To say this right after you slated Aziz who you acknowledge didn't actually commit a crime, but hey, he's still bad and deserved to be shredded... but women lose out? Not seeing many women having their lives destroyed by men who they had consensual sex with... _"I regret being a slut"_ - So? Fun at the time, and now she's older she regrets it? She had the choice not to do it, she made those choices, she enjoyed herself, it didn't provide what she wanted, and how she regrets it. Again, the choices were all hers. _"I want the blame to be directed at the playboys"_ - Yes - you want women to be able to do whatever they want whenever they want, and then totally abdicate any and all responsibility later if they want to. Those playboys can only be playboys because women choose them - yet it's _their_ fault? What are you going to do - force women not to choose them? To date men they find less appealing? I'm sure they'll love that! How will you frame this when those women start complaining about doing things they didn't want to do? 'I forced myself to date a man I didn't find attractive and now I regret it...' - somehow I'm sure it will still be mens fault. Re: R@pe being about attraction too - you'll have a long long way to go unpicking that feminist canard about power - it's still repeated millions of times in KZbin comments sections regardless of how illogical it is. The 'full story' is not there because feminists didn't want it to be. _"There was an epidemic of s3xual assaults on college campuses"_ - There really wasn't. This was just women's groups on campuses using social media to try and leverage for funding. The stats kept coming in year after year and college campuses were among the safest places on earth. _"Acquaintance"_ - Never seen a very good definition of this - that can be someone you just got introduced to at a bar. Re: 'Myths' - never bought that. Feminists make these claims, and when you look at what the myths Juries supposedly believe are, they really aren't myths at all - feminists just don't like them. They want to frame anything which might make a man look innocent or a women look to be unreliable as a 'myth'' while preventing the same being done for a man accused. The emphasis is always on 'not enough convictions', but that assumes the men are all guilty, and unfortunately, believe it or not, some women tell lies... which makes things even more complicated. But then Louise thinks 'consent is not enough' so...

[@wendellbabin6457]

1:29:35 So long at this "directed it's at the Playboys" is also, AND EQUALLY, directed at the PLAYGIRLS whom are trying to "take advantage" of THEM.

[@wendellbabin6457]

1:45:35 ESPECIALLY when both are blind drunk/stoned with practically ZERO actual experience around the opposite sex brought into these scenario for the FIRST time. What comes to my mind is the "Pampered Princess/Daddy's Girl" that has been educated in an all Girl's School or possibly even a private tutor or home-schooled who either wasn't allowed or was never really interested in dating other than maybe PROM trots off to a mixed Ultra Feminist College and is confronted with her first Frat Party Debauchery and maybe some high status Jock or Rich Kid who has had his "pick of the litter" practically as soon as he discovered that he could. Add to that her sorority "Sisters" also way out on the tail of the distribution who CANNOT WAIT to destroy the "Rich Princess's life. Maybe even entire future. OR. Same girl, exposed to advice from Feminists with the "Elite's Luxury Beliefs" and is ready to COMPLETELY cast off her protected upbringing, and common sense as well, likely. I have actually witnessed this 3 times in the brief time I was able to attend college back in the Stone Age. Cannot imagine it has only gotten exponentially WORSE in the intervening almost half century now.

[@MyFocusVaries]

I am skeptical. She is saying a lot about what feminists think and say that I, as a hard core feminist,. don't think are true at all.

[@YannSchmidt]

21:25 If you really knew... lots of women propose to pay rent with sexual favors instead of money nowadays. Specially in big cities. Happened to a friend of mine in Paris trying to rent a studio room.

[@angellover02171]

Typical conservative radfem

[@paulcarmi8130]

So she has value then! Lovely!

[@codematters7970]

Women are different too. I'm very different to Louise .so I'm not sure why she pictures women from one perspective only.

[@Hemlocker]

Re: the comparison between sex-for-rent and the sex industry -- I think the big difference is that sex work generally doesn't force itself on people who don't want to be a part of it, whereas everyone needs a place to live. Most people don't have to engage with sex work if they don't want to, but most people do have to engage with renting property. If sex-for-rent were to be accepted and even normalised, it would quickly lead to a situation where it's a more common and expected thing, so it would become harder and more expensive for women who don't want that to find a place to rent, in a time where that's already difficult. I don't see why decriminalising sex work would have the same effect, because it doesn't force itself on people who don't want to be a part of it.

[@MJLopezEchenique]

I agree on most things... except.. I met my husband and wonderful father of my daughter on Tinder...😅

[@MamadouTraore-om8hh]

A powerfull argument for western women to look into Islam

[@inbb510]

Not really. She is opposed to polygyny which Islam endorses unreservedly.

[@skylinefever]

No thanks, nobody should have their male or lady bits circumcised.

[@solimine1007]

I don't like her standpoint on prevention versus prosecution. I don't believe there should be a trade off with that one.

[@sarahfranco6802]

1:45:20, 1:46:30, 1:50:40, 1:53:10 we can't consent to this, 2:00:50, 2:04:05, 208:06

[@alfredpetrie7920]

21 thousand!!hard job meeting all those!!

[@gonzalocamunez637]

You can apply the “blowjob example to your boss” to two man 100% actually. The power difference comes from the fact that is you boss entirely, nothing to do with sex or sexual orientation

[@olivermorrison7127]

So in your view it's perfectly fine for you to ask your boss for a blow job, because you don't have power over them.

[@amandaforrester7636]

No, what she meant was its still inherently wrong because sex is sacred.

[@koalabandit9166]

Sure, but the power difference doesn't really matter if sex is just like squash.

[@suigeneris2843]

Louise Perry is so cute

[@desireesydow]

I have never felt compelled to comment on a podcast before but with this one, I couldn't not comment! I am sure that Louise is a lovely and smart lady so this is nothing personal at all, but her opinions expressed here are really bizarre to me. I pretty much disagreed with every view, and I cannot help but wonder what the point of this book even is? It sounds like a big regression to me, I did feel lots of her views are very 1950s. She sounds very dismissive of any female behaviour that is not "couth" or "average"- she is basically saying, almost no woman actually likes to have casual sex, only men do; if women THINK they like casual sex, they have been kind of brainwashed to think so because it is the cool, high status thing to say or do; that women doing sex work are pretty much always unhappy about it and that no woman might actually purely do it as a transaction to earn good money, e.g. with an onlyfans account; that the only useful and desirable model of a relationship is a monogamous straight relationship/marriage, with anything less conventional, e.g. polyamory, being a nice thought experiment gone wrong, a silly idea that, again, is a bit of a status thing but actually doesnt work in practice, and women favouring such a lifestyle must have been brainwashed into it, etc etc. And then, that BDSM is a bad idea, because some people get away with a BDSM excuse in court. Come on! Domestic violence and BDSM do NOT look identical, as she literally says! Domestic violence is VIOLENCE, a criminal behaviour, BDSM is a sexual preference that people do with mutual consent. I think Louise is prescribing a bit too readily her own ideas and lifestyle onto all women. Also, it sounds like she has researched a lot of rape, violence etc cases which seems to have skewed her view a bit - just because some men use BDSM as an excuse in court surely shouldn't mean that millions of people should stop having a fulfilled sex life. Instead, it should only mean that that particular individual should be behind bars! This is like saying that no one in the world should use hammers anymore because some people have killed their victim with a hammer. As I understand, the author wrote this book to protect women, to relieve them from societal pressures and from having to live up to sexual expectations, but instead, I get the impression that it is taking a lot of agency from women, that it is making them feel like they are responsible for mens` behaviour, that they should say goodbye to unconventional relationship models and having a fulfilled sex life if they are into kink, that they should get married, not be "improper", and behave decently in public so that the evil men inhabiting the world don't get too tempted. Sorry but that all sounds very unempowering, patronising and conservative to me. Addition - I just watched her conversation with Aella on another podcast and read the comments - almost everyone agreeing with Louise's view. This scares me! I find her views quite obviously antiquated and absolutely not feminist. Anyways, thank you Ali for your podcast, I love listening to it every week - loyal follower!

[@sarimkh]

If you largely agreed with Aella's views in that convo, then I can't help but think that perhaps some of your own views are pretty problematic and frankly weird.

[@sasi4417]

​@@sarimkh she strawmaned Louise pretty hard at the end of the comments. Maybe she is projecting the hatred towards conservatives and what she thinks as empowering or not. Louise Perry does discuss other issues not just sex work from a feminist pov.

[@s.e.studios1386]

I think you bring up a lot of good points. She is very patronizing towards women. I remember when I was younger seeing plenty of girls literally delight in rejecting men. Her assumption that young women feel like a yes is the current default position that they have to negotiate out off seems to...well, be just that...an assumption. I get the vibe it wouldn't matter how much a woman insisted she happily consented and enjoyed it, Perry would never believe her and insist, as you said, that this was just cultural indoctrination. I think that's what makes her come off so patronizing. She is the only one with self awareness and critical thinking skills, all other women are just programmable. Additionally, can we stop talking like contraception started with the pill. There were plenty of forms of contraception before the pill. The pill was just the most fool proof to date(except one method). We call it the sexual revolution(just marketing) but really our attitudes towards sex and contraception had been changing gradually from the Victorian era onward.

[@lordsneed9418]

You know research has been done where men are asked how they feel after a one night stand and women are asked how they feel after a one night stand. The results are that men mostly feel satisfied after a one night stand but women mostly feel regretful. So Louise Perry is correct that most women actually do not like casual sex. Similarly Louise Perry is correct on how the mental health and happiness of women working as prostitutes is much lower on average than non-prostitutes and so the fraction of women who naturally possess a personality where they are happy and fulfilled by having sex with strangers for money is very small. The fact that you're objecting to this makes you seem extremely out of touch. I have lost the motivation to read the rest of a post written by someone so clearly out of touch with the likes and predispositions of most women.

[@lordsneed9418]

you know research has been done where men are asked how they feel after a one night stand and women are asked how they feel after a one night stand. The results are that men mostly feel satisfied after a one night stand but women mostly feel regretful. So Louise Perry is correct that most women actually do not like casual ess ee ex. Similarly Louise Perry is correct on how the mental health and happiness of women working as pros stit tutes is much lower on average than non pros stit tutes and so the fraction of women who naturally possess a personality where they are happy and fulfilled by having ess ee exx with strangers for money is very small. The fact that you're objecting to this makes you seem extremely out of touch. I have lost the motivation to read the rest of a post written by someone so clearly out of touch with the likes and predispositions of most women.

[@wendellbabin6457]

1:11:30 Like high status men have ever NOT WON?

[@TrakeM118]

I'm pretty sure the femenist position isn't "You WILL NOT take sex seriously whether you like it or not!". I'm pretty sure the more femensist position is "You get to decide for yourself how seriously you will consider sex to be." So much of her criticisms disappear once you consider this to be the case. She says that sex early on in a relationship and taking sex less seriously isn't in the interest of women. That this change is due to the interests of men. I don't think this is the case. As she acknowledges, this kind of easy availability of sex isn't the experience of all men. Far from it. Even according to Louise Perry, this is the experience of a very small minority of men (5-10%). It is inevitable that not all women can have an exclusive life-long relationship with a top 5-10% man. There just aren't enough men in the top 5-10% of men for there to be one for every woman. That is just math. Math is VERY unforgiving. This is inevitable. This is inexorable. You are welcome to argue with math, but frankly you might as well go argue with a wall. It isn't going to go anywhere. If you want a life long relationship for every woman, that means that tehre is no choice but for only around 5% to get a guy in the top 5% and only around 10% to get a guy in the top 10%. The inevitability of a move to only life long relationships is that the vast majority of women can't get that top 5-10% of man. Now, you can say that this is preferable but it isn't up to you to decide what everyone else will/won't do. Women individually decide for themselves what they feel is better. That's how things should work. We all live our own lives. The vast majority of women, especially in younger years, have decided that they want a top 5-10% guy even if that means they can't have him for life and they can have an average guy for life. That is their choice. The majority of women simply do not seem to agree with the position that sex early on in a relationship with at top 5-10% guy isn't in their best interests based on their actions. By all means, please do feel free to argue to people that they should want something else but ultimately we all make the decision for ourselves. Yes, the vast majority of women have one threshold for who they'd have sex with and a higher bar for who they would marry. Women have something very similar. Many women eventually marry (often after lowering their standards over the course of time) to a guy that they wouldn't have slept with at a younger age when they had much higher standards and that they won't sleep with as quickly as they did men in the past when they had higher standards and weren't a serious about finding a husband. Many women hit a point at which they start getting serious about finding a husband and start dating and marrying guys that they wouldn't have given the time of day to when they weren't looking for a husband.

[@saniyauzumaki]

I always find it weird when people complain and even she talked about dating apps like tinder where certain percentage of men get matches with the whole top 10% theory. If people just look at data and statistics itself then it makes more sense. - There are more number of men than women on tinder. So obviously every women will have more matches - Which brings me to second point, men match with almost all women to increase their chances. I recall reading about this as well online for Ok Cupid as well. - But they will only message women they find attractive out of all they have matched, this was the findings of the study. People in general look for assortive mating. - I am also excluding the points of how many women are even willing to meet for a date in first place. I am guilty of this, despite having lot of matches I have only met 1 man in 3 years on tinder. So the whole incel complain about top 10% chad getting girls is quite ridiculous and even people like her should back it up with data and other factors I have mentioned above.

[@saniyauzumaki]

Also my male friends had no issues with finding women even for hook ups. Mind you my male friends are very average looking. Except for maybe 1 who only has abs, none of them are “top tier” chads.

[@zs9652]

So do you mean that you only matched and dated if they met your criteria? Or that you had almost no matches?

[@saniyauzumaki]

@@zs9652 You didn't read my comment well ig but I will make it more clear here. "I am guilty of this, despite having lot of matches I have only met 1 man in 3 years on tinder." For me personally on tinder likes, I got like 1000+ likes and yes I always matched with men I liked ofcourse,. However either the conversation would fizzle out, I would find them boring or unresponsive and I would uninstall the app as I didn't take dating as a priority that time.I had a lot of likes and matched with every guy I liked and we chatted. It;s just that I didn't make the effort to go out and meet them. It takes time for me to be interested and actually want to date someone.

[@juankilez]

Reconsidering the notion that men's promiscuity is solely determined by history or biology is important. The way male desire is portrayed can be restrictive, leading to questionable decisions with unclear motivations. The positive image of promiscuous men might be problematic, and it could be beneficial for many cisgender men to explore beyond these stereotypes. Instead of framing sexuality as a 'zero-sum game,' it's more accurate to recognize the complex interplay of factors of the individuals. Marketing and digital tools often replicate behaviors, reflecting societal challenges. This relates to gender-based determinism (masculinity = control, invulnerability, wealth, dominance, violence), contributing to the perpetuation of certain stereotypes.

[@tm27field]

Louise is beautiful, inside and out!

[@sarahfranco6802]

43:00, 1:03:00, 1:17:10, 1:25:00

[@auroranamex5886]

I wonder how popular this point of view? I mean, actually?

[@GGMCreates]

I would argue that BDSM is often a reaction to deal with childhood sexual trauma.

[@GGMCreates]

And thank you for the trigger warning.

[@FalcaoXTZ]

In my experience this is true

[@sarahfranco6802]

1:38:24

[@Abril-1234]

I bet this will be interesting!

[@MikeSmith-rd9fi]

@lorenzovscompanyagent have you eaten shit?

[@alfredpetrie7920]

Lady is talking sense

[@corporatefeline]

So wierd that bodily autonomy and the choice to be or not to be touched - should not be the sovereignty of every individual is ludicrous. Except, that as Christian doctrine states - as followers of Christ, you are bought with a price - to live Christian principles and achieve Eternal Life - You can choose.

[@coralBlue]

While I agree on her nuanced perspective on hook culture, I still think it's quite dangerous to use tropes like "women just aren't interested in science" and make that sound like evolution when it's more like barely studies theories in psychology.

[@wendellbabin6457]

52:37 conferred status even by WOMEN for Sociosexuality perversely enough. Even Chaste women historically "want" any potential future husband to be competent, at least, sexually. This is confused with and BY the "Tail Denizens" at either end and either sex eventually. And that appears to be an Eternal Problem.

[@Dana_chay]

awesome

[@millivanilli111]

Dunno about this one man. Haven’t read her book - but have read a bunch of articles on conservative websites I really disagree with.

[@user-dn6fw1ss1c]

Worth watching more interviews and reading the book from her directly. She has controversial points but mostly because it addresses what many women are afraid to say out loud.

[@millivanilli111]

@@user-dn6fw1ss1c I've read several articles from her and I believe political context is important. If someone has very conservative beliefs and only conservative news platforms will platform them - what does that tell me?

[@user-dn6fw1ss1c]

​@@millivanilli111 Well it at least tells me that liberal outlets are trying not to rock the boat with the readers, but that isn't to say that the idea is wrong. Critical thinking is a major part of this, something which both points of the political spectrum often lack. As a liberal woman, I find her take refreshing and speaks for women of all political parties, not just the conservatives.

[@millivanilli111]

@@user-dn6fw1ss1c That's not what I take away from it - I take away that it is essentially a conservative opinion. I respect your point, though. I agree that critical thinking is a part of this. I think that shame is the major issue here - and while not every person needs to act the same way in order to be "liberated" - to grow as a society and have the option to be sexual and not feel shame about that is very important. It leads to discussions about what feels right to you - as an individual - which I hope is what the endgame is here.

[@TheShatteredlamp12]

​@@millivanilli111 not everything conservative is bad. That's an incredibly tribal approach. Believe it or not you can agree with one article in the spectator without going full gammon.

[@CrickerLoverAsh]

She’s so beautiful

[@wendellbabin6457]

37:13 How many men would realistically be interested romantically in this friend who was 6'-3" and could take out any man? Probably any man that would, that comparison would likely no longer hold without a weapon being involved. Which is the same really as the rest of women isn't it? Or the age old "Tradition?" suckering some man into doing it for you. Or expecting family to "clean up your messes".

[@aldorodriguez7310]

From a medical perspective, how do hormones affect behavior in a way that supports her nuance arguments?

[@lebambale]

"let's just have 50/50 subscribed to unsubscribed ratio just so... just for fun" - what the f* was that?? Also, you're doing nudging completely wrong - "80% haven't yet subscribed" (so what??), you should have told "20% of you have already subscribed! Hit the subscribe button". That's nudging! (Behavioural economics; research in nudging won a Nobel prize some years back, btw!)

[@olga_b344]

Has anyone read the book - does she actually give action steps and advice to women regarding how to cope the situation given how things are? All I got from this interview is - listen to your instincts, don’t watch porn, don’t use dating apps? ❤

[@debbiedawson8109]

She does - it’s a good easy read.

[@olga_b344]

@@debbiedawson8109 thank you

[@wendellbabin6457]

2:03:54 Dating apps should have an AGE LIMIT and/or Maturity Rating. JUST LIKE PORN, Btw. Not, banned outright as I would hope culture has learned from the "War on Drugs" (taxpayers) that it failed to learn during Prohibition in the US?

[@churblefurbles]

Criminalization should be both ways, she goes too far.

[@skylinefever]

I love having women accept the downside of equality.

[@skylinefever]

Damn right! Equality needs to mean both the upsides and downsides.

[@BellePal]

Not many people suggest sex is like squash.

[@deal2live]

Shaney fur being racist is a little different and so clear! ‘You are testing me like this backside I am black’? It is accusation where may be only the racial identity of the two sides are held as evidence!?!

[@Azrael__]

No we aren't. Please read some feminist theory.

[@12ls45]

Please could you explain why we aren’t? I’m genuinely interested

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Louise did mention Sex Positive Feminism but didn’t talk much about Aphobia which affects Asexuals, Aromantic and Aroace people who are part of the Queer Spectrum.

[@johngilliam6764]

You mean like 0.1% of the population.She didn't mention dwarves either.What about them?

[@naomihasan8121]

I don't buy her ideas on psychological differences. I feel like her case against socialization is very weak. Generally % of females interested in STEM goes down as they get older while it's the opposite for males. When coding was seen as a women's job, most coders were women even though it was not a people-orientated job. In 1984, the idea that personal computers are for boys came about and the number of women in programming decreased. Girls are thought to be agreeable and boys are thought to be strong. Being aggressive and winning was equated to being strong. If you look at toddlers, they are aggressive/agreeable regardless of gender. A twenty-year-old man can commit more crimes than a 40-year-old because yes hormones, but also because they have less to lose, more to gain, and a loose understanding of consequences/impact. Aggressive and violent women are looked down on more and can use other methods to get what they want because they are not physically strong. Men get pats on the back for having sex, which feeds their egos. Women get more sentimental because society looks at who they had sex with, not how many. I can go on but her arguments seem weak. Maybe if I read the book, I'll be able to understand better.

[@Juststudiothings]

thank you for this- I was thinking about some of this while listening and frankly a lot of red flags have gone up re; the things you were mentioning.

[@mjh277]

Most coders were never women. Used to be a higher percentage but never a majority. Always been more male dominated. Girls aren’t thought to be more agreeable, they’re statistically measure to be more agreeable on the average If you don’t notice the difference in aggression between female and male toddlers then you need to spend more time observing. Aggressive and violent women are not looked down upon more. That’s just conjecture ‘Men get pats on the back for having sex’ not because they are socialised that way but because it’s evolutionary in nature, men and women do not have the same mating strategies. If anything I think your arguments attempting to refute the notion of evolved sexual differences is weak. Remember that there is greater variation within sexes than between sexes and you’ll realise you need the nuance and that whilst we are mostly the same, it’s often the differences that men and women will select in each other. It’s all about subtlety

[@KathySierraVideo]

@@mjh277 I’m a woman coder, and wrote the longest running bestseller on programming in Amazon’s history. (Just hit #1 Java programming book on its 20th year anniversary). I say that only to explain that I’ve *personally* interacted with tens of thousands of women programmers over 40 years since I wrote my first line of code. It’s hard to understand cultural impacts if you’ve not lived in them. My husband started writing code as a teenager, because it was A Thing Boys Could Do. I started much later, as when I was in high school, the typing classes were clearly offered to prepare girls for secretarial school, and often paired with the equally-fun “charm school.” Meanwhile, my husband is in chess club and shop class. It’s easy to think, “but none of that’s true today…” and miss the point that women raised as I was are out there raising sons and daughters, with their own unconscious bias. Though my career is tech, my passion is Icelandic horses. And here’s another example of culture… in the US, most men (outside cowboy country) will say, “ponies are a Girl Thing.” Indeed, the vast majority of recreational horse owners in IS are women. Meanwhile until not that long ago, ponies in Iceland were mostly a Boy Thing (while until recently, math in Iceland was more a Girl Thing.) How could we possibly know the implications of generations of unconscious bias? We don’t have control groups in the west… girls raised by those who themselves were never exposed to the overwhelming cultural/media messages about what women actually “prefer.” Are there differences? Oh obviously. Structurally, chemically, it would be impossible to assume those don’t impact behavior. But whenever I hear these discussions, I think… have these people never seen women who - for example - farm? Toiling away at extremely physically hard often solitary work. The world is overflowing with badass women doing work that does not appear “feminine”. But let’s say your theory of women and code is “right”, then I think women’s “tendencies” will lead them to kick ass collaborating with large language models like ChatGPT to create the software of the future. 😊 (Just for disclaimer: I almost never experienced misogyny in my tech jobs. It was only after the rise of social media that I learned first hand just how much anger, fear, and hatred too many men were feeling toward women “stealing” roles they thought belonged to men.)

[@mjh277]

@@KathySierraVideo oh I don’t doubt that social effects play a role. I studied maths at uni in the UK and you do that you’ll here about the Oxford maths program and how decades ago, every couple of years only the odd girl would get into first year and fail out. But one year two girls got in and their support for one another meant they were the first to actually pass through the years and as younger girls joined in the following years it meant women’s attendance grew slowly but solidly year on year. That’s a mixture of biology but social too. I don’t doubt coding has become a more guy heavy club and that’s not so great. I just don’t think that the OP is going to help women by denying the reality that men are generally more object oriented. It’s not an opinion, it’s research backed. And again, the differences with sexes is greater than the difference between the averages.

[@MyFocusVaries]

​@@mjh277 if you look at some of the original research on the gender "difference" in mathematics, you'll find that they've been misrepresented. There is an extremely small difference in overall scores. And more girls scored the extreme high scores.

[@gonzalocamunez637]

what about doing away with ANY shame associated with sexual behavior instead of keeping it as a tool of social control (your words not mine)? You might not be able to get rid of shame entirely but you are not even trying because you like it when it is placed in what you deem to be the wrong kind of behavior…

[@isoldam]

Self-destructive and degenerate acts should evoke shame.

[@antalpoti]

Getting fully rid of shame would be good because?