Mormons Respond to Kevin Franke's Police Interview & Jodi Hildebrandt | Ep. 1896

John Dehlin is joined by Natasha Helfer and Janae Thompson to discuss and react to Kevin Franke's second police interview in the controversial child ab*se case surrounding his former wife, Ruby Franke, and their LDS therapist, Jodi Hildebrandt.
Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Learnreligiontherapy.com
/ @thekingofrandom
Chapters
00:00:00 Background of the case
00:05:40 Janae’s background
00:15:00 “Pornography addiction”
00:23:48 Harmful teachings around sexuality
00:41:07 Grounds for Church Discipline
00:47:57 Clip 1 - The "Pen Papers" - Jodi's revelations
01:09:25 Child abuse by imposing their own beliefs on their children
01:19:04 Clip 2 - Testimonials of how great Jodi was
01:34:34 How the Group Meets worked
01:58:01 Clip 3 - Ruby's public fallout over treatment of Chad
02:09:50 Clip 4 - Jodi claims she was kidnapped
02:13:25 Clip 5 - Poltergeists & Visions
02:30:00 Questioning Jodi’s queerness
02:34:59 Clip 6 - Kevin and Ruby separating in-home over "visions"
02:48:40 Clip 7 - Losing their KZbin channel
02:50:41 Clip 11 - Jodi punishes Kevin for not complying
03:15:22 Clip 14 - Final questions in the interview
03:18:20 Wishing the best for Kevin Franke
03:18:35 How Janae left Women’s Group with Jodi Hildebrandt
03:25:33 The pain of getting excommunicated for Natasha Helfer
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[@dnlhrrng]

Keep beating that drum John that the church excommunicated you, Natasha, and Sam Young while keeping Jodi Hildebrandt in confidence and tacitly, if not openly, endorsing her for years. That needs to continue to be called out. Great interview!

[@rabbitholeofreligion]

L

[@phillisob]

THIS! There is nothing the "church" fears more than the truth and those who speak it. Access to the internet from private homes was the worst thing to happen to them, because those who wanted and cared about the truth suddenly had access to those their "church" has always kept hidden. 😢

[@ChiaraKeating]

Please, please, PLEASE stop giving Kevin a pass. I don’t think he’s responsible for the level of abuse that the kids went through towards the end, but he sure as hell was a big part of the abuse from their 8 passengers channel. Taking away a child’s food, bed, autonomy is abuse. Just because he didn’t hog tie the kids and make them work in the blistering sun, it doesn’t absolve him of allowing the early stages of abuse happening in the years leading up to these horrible crimes. Please call him out on this. I beg.

[@cwb1400]

Agreed, treating him with this kindness just grosses me out. He was there participating in his children’s abuse long before Jodi came along. He was a checked out father and even if you’re not doing the hands on abusing, watching it, letting it happen and advocating for it is just as bad. Glad the therapist has some sense. This episode really irritated me.

[@sirdidymus24]

Well said! Also let’s not forget that on 2 separate occasions he pressured the police to charge his own daughter with trespassing … because she was taking care of HIS kids!

[@michellefregeau321]

Agreed

[@BestCoastLife]

I agree…also Kevin basically abandoned his kids for a year. He never once checked on their wellbeing knowing that Jodi behaviour was problematic. It really is shameful.

[@Isabella-nd3rq]

Agreed! And as far as I am concerned, he allowed what happened to happen- where was he? What kind of father walks away from his children for so long?! He knew that something was very wrong with Jodi and Ruby’s relationship and he did nothing. That’s not innocent.

[@compassionandhumility]

I'm really glad that Natasha kept pointing out that Kevin is at fault as well. So many people are ignoring his part in his children's care and even painting him as a victim in the entirety of the situation, which he isn't.

[@user-pr1yz8kf2n]

Kevin Always sounded far more concerned about his abusive wife than his kids.

[@Jade18E]

Complicit and parental neglect!

[@ChubbyUnicorn]

It is MUCH more damaging to a child for their parent to watch another person abuse and actively ignore that abuse. This is betrayal at the highest level.

[@WitchOracle]

Yep. I was a teen when I started going to therapy and I processed my bitterness over abuse from my dad. As soon as I felt compassion for him as a human (not absolving him from blame, but understanding him more) I felt like a mountain of bitterness towards my mom was unleashed. Why didn't she save me from him? Why didn't she remove me from that house? Why didn't she put me (and my sibling) first? It's been a long time and I have a much better relationship with both of my parents now, but there have been times when going low contact was the best option for me and I fully support anyone who feels that estrangement is their only option. The betrayal is so deep, and those scars truly never leave you, you just learn to live in a different way.

[@BonnieDragonKat]

My heart breaks for the kids. I was abused and 30 years later my adopted father's brother and sister in law confirmed the abuse and admitted they never reported it. It's opened a whole new can of worms.

[@cwb1400]

@@WitchOracleI had the same issue growing up. My mom just stood by and allowed us to be abused by an out-of-control husband and I had a lot of anger towards her that I had to work through. What Kevin has done is just as abusive, and the fact that they’re sitting here letting him off the hook makes me sick. I’m glad the therapist has some sense.

[@Kimberly_Sparkles]

As someone who followed their cancellation on YT, you guys are being way too kind on the Frankes. Ruby was abusing the kids and Kevin was ignoring it is the best interpretation. At a minimum, that's what their channel showed. However, both parents felt fully involved in various means of control that alarmed the viewers of their videos. He never stopped her. That active decision to not intervene IS a choice. Yes, Kevin is a victim, and I'd argue that Ruby is also a victim of Jody's, but they are both parents who left their children in a situation where they could be starved. There's no excusing a parent who doesn't protect their kids. The pass Kevin is being given in this is because he isn't being treated as a primary parent. ETA: Ok, glad the lady therapist called it out.

[@kacklina]

I feel like they become sadistic and enjoy It.

[@gaiagreen2690]

This is an EXCELLENT and very differentiated comment. Kevin Franke is finally being called out for his part in this entire horror story.

[@gacktist00]

yes and they show off their kids privacy on the internet for money many many years. and now they wasting the money for their lawyers😑😑

[@laurenmay2098]

Yes, Kevin is worse, because he stay back and says he never did anything. Yes you did, you allowed to happen.

[@droundyCubby]

I disagree with kevin being an instigator. Counselors are held up to too-high a standard, like doctors. People think counselors know what they are doing, know it all, and give them too much authority. He tried to do what he was counseled to do. Thinking it was the best for his kids because the counselor said so. She, the counselor, is off the wall.

[@Chris-dz4vh]

There needs to be a forensic accounting investigation into the links between Connexions & insurance from LDS

[@lisalemonjello1462]

More importantly, did she accept any federal funds such as Medicare or Medicaid for her services.

[@critterscute3642]

@@lisalemonjello1462Excellent point.

[@caseyjude5472]

Agreed. The only way this would happen is if federal investigators were tasked with it. Law enforcement in The Theocracy of Utah is too corrupt.

[@HeartOfHippie]

Precisely

[@HeartOfHippie]

Insurance fraud

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Natasha is right....imposing beliefs on a child is child abuse. I love that Natasha is BRAVE enough to say difficult things.

[@ruththecatlady]

Yeah she is amazing! I was watching and wishing I was in US and could go to her as a therapist!

[@trudelulu]

I've been following this case since last year, so thank you Natasha for saying that Kevin isn't blameless in all of this! I was shocked to hear that they were promising not to go too hard on him, in part due to personal relationships. But your personal relationship to him shouldn't absolve the part that he played in the abuse of his children and his continued protection of Ruby up until her conviction. Even before Jodi was in the picture, he not only went along with Ruby's cruelty but he also contributed to the emotional, physical, and mental abuse and exploitation of his children. It's all on video. He was present and allowed it to happen. And when Jodi was in the picture, his absence and negligence allowed for the abuse to continue to escalate. Kevin, if you're reading this, you have a lot of accountability to take in the abuse of your children. Two things can be true at once. Mormon indoctrination may have influenced your decision making and your parenting, but there is still individual responsibility in the part that you played.

[@Wh3nth3wick3drul3]

I was never taught what she did while part of the LDS Church.

[@rebeccasirrine947]

In re: masturbation, I have three sons. I took them aside as teenagers and told them privately, that it was normal, natural, everyone does it, and they shouldn't be ashamed of it. All I asked is that they kept it private and cleaned up after themselves (lol). And that if the bishop ever asked them about it, they had my permission, in this one instance, to lie. And I was fully TBM at the time. But that's how strongly I felt that the Church's attitude towards masturbation was wrong and damaging.

[@WindsofChange]

Thank heavens for someone being moderate. This "therapist" that says you shouldn't put limits on that activity is AS extreme as those that try to tell kids that they should never do it. I've told my son that if he can't keep it private and clean he shouldn't be doing it until he can. I don't want to see that....as you said, it's no one elses business unless they choose to make it someone elses business. A good momma!

[@SarahAllenHumboldt]

Your attitude must have made them feel validated; good for you. I think I would consider telling them to tell the bishop that they chose to not discuss that topic with him, and that if he needed to, he could go to you. That would have supported their setting boundaries and built self-esteem; it feels awful to lie.

[@jewellee2363]

not a Mormon, but a Bible believing Christian. I have 3 boys and can't imagine my Pastor asking my boys a question like that. it sounds sick . I'm not bashing in anyway, but not being raised Mormon it's just so difficult to hear and understand 😢

[@SKeane-jb6uj]

@@jewellee2363​​⁠catholic priests did more than just ask private questions.

[@jewellee2363]

@@SKeane-jb6uj yup! all organized religion

[@SatansRoerhat]

I'm glad Natasha Helfer added that qualifier. Kevin had a responsibility to protect his kids and failed to do so. Kevin was also a part of their lives and youtube channel, when Ruby threatened with scissors to CUT OFF THE HEAD of their young daughter's stuffed toy. Her cries of fear and despair in that video are haunting.

[@ruththecatlady]

Natasha, thank you for making clear your position that you do see KF as having accountability. It’s been concerning to me to see a trend for KF to come out of this as victim. Anyone who has watched this family has to realise that’s not the case here - I understand how hard it is within communities where you have friendships and connections (no pun intended) but that’s also the danger of our communities (I’m not LDS I’m Catholic and I get how John feels here and the strain of getting the balance right - I’ve been in the same position and I have great sympathy and respect for John). In this case I think it’s a misstep for John to make the KF disclaimer - because KF should be open to criticism. Natasha you speaking up and making that point meant a lot to me as a survivor of childhood trauma.

[@stevedorecharley2849]

Never Mormon here, and I am SO glad to hear Natasha call out 12 step programs. I had serious trauma at their hands, and it’s very hard for me to listen to glowing praise from people when I was treated to coercion and control tactics that harmed me for years. There was no way to fight back because I would be accused of being in denial or being uncooperative whenever I questioned anything. It was terrible. At this point, someone usually tells me to try different groups because they don’t all fit. I did. And there’s no convincing me 12 step groups aren’t “religious.” Their main book is loaded with god language, and even courts have determined they’re religious. I cannot stomach their principles and the way they blame victims.

[@SarahAllenHumboldt]

Some disjointed points in response to your post: here are sick people everywhere, inclusive of in 12 Step programs; I have experienced them, as well, especially where the program is weak. I lived in part of a large city that was politically liberal for 18 years, so the people who would have done cultish stuff were probably afraid to pull their tactics. I never heard blaming of victims. There is a big difference between spirituality and organized religion.

[@cwb1400]

Yes! 12 step especially AA has a high rate of failure. I think sometimes John is out of touch.

[@lilasfaves7846]

Yes 28 yrs here in aa , 9 years I was controlled by a VERY strict sponsor! Controlled me by shame and fear if I didn’t follow her exactly, I’d drink again. Recovering now in aca which allows me to love myself ❤️

[@MsDF936]

I've heard a lot of bad stuff around AA, but I will say ACA Adult Children of Alcoholics and Dysfunctional Families was not that way at all. It's about healing shame, not discussing your behaviors.

[@michellepratico]

"If you ever study cults, the leaders are rarely super handsome, charismatic, intelligent people. They're goobers! They're weird!" Oh, John! LOL! I laughed out loud! Just tell it like it is, John Dehlin!

[@mormonstories]

☺️

[@lizhoward9754]

2:57 - absolutely Kevin needs to be held accountable for abandoning his children despite being under the influence of a cult figure. He knew Jodi was off mentally and he still allowed her around his children and even left the home. What person leaves his children with a mother who is part of a deranged cult and doesn’t even see those children for a year?? It is no wonder Utah put those kids in foster care rather than give Kevin custody. That is a man in serious need of a lot of therapy.

[@phoenixrising1675]

Children have a right to touch their own bodies. And it’s none of anyone’s business. The end… children are human beings with autonomy.

[@gaiagreen2690]

Exactly.

[@laurenmay2098]

The problem is their sick minds. Everything is a no no. Anything that is that harsh is not good to anyone's growth. We wind up as a disfunction adults. I remember Kevin saying that Ruby didn't wanted to dress lingeries. That's something someone put in her mind it is bad. Sick and twisted. Who knows is she wasn't abused as a child? Not saying she should abuse others, better yet, be against all kinds of abuse. She missed the opportunity to be a good parent. If she only went to the right doctors. Or maybe she is beyond help.

[@StephSwainston-gm9cx]

Uuuhphp

[@WindsofChange]

I disagree.....if they choose time and place poorly when they are old enough to know better. Are you going to sit and watch your 13 year old son pleasure himself? Anyone who is willing to do that will find themselves in jail soon enough. Enough said. Moderation people, not extremes.

[@cwb1400]

@@WindsofChangeyou’re being a bit extreme. I think you know exactly what this commenter means when saying this. No one is saying what you just said 🙄

[@Mrs_Solis]

I remember when the first few Connextions videos came out. I listened because I follow the entire family (E+J, Drew Crew, Bonnie) and I wanted to see if this therapist would help me become a better mother. My son was 1 at the time and the more i listened, the more my instincts said this wasn’t for me. Even if this 1 year old grew up to become a “troubled” teen, it just didn’t sound right. Now that all THIS has come out, I’m glad I followed my instincts.

[@nw22122]

So happy you followed your gut and stopped listening to the crap they spew. Now can I encourage you to stop following & supporting the rest of the family (Bonnie, Julie etc)?? Something is just so strange with them… the child exploitation and the family practices are so similar to how Ruby parented her kids before and right after Jodi came into the picture. Of course you can do what you want but at least wanted to mention it! ♥️

[@phoenixrising1675]

I’m a 65 year old grandmother of 3 and have no idea why “sex” has always been the enemy. It’s insane! Sex feels good and pleasure is good for you…. Mormons are more hung up on sex than they are on murder!

[@PatriciaNoel-qp2ff]

BINGO, my fellow grandmother/nana. Yes, sex in a safe relationship is MAGNIFICENT. If it’s not, learn to do it better. 🌷

[@camcat26]

My mother considers herself a “sex-positive Catholic feminist” (yes, that is as complicated as it sounds). Growing up, she told me that sex was supposed to be enjoyable, otherwise God’s plan for being fruitful and multiplying would be much harder to fulfill

[@yvelaine]

Totally agree ….

[@jeneanewarren9777]

As long as all parties are of consenting age and willing

[@sonja.5035]

They take something that's so natural and beautiful and turn it to something nasty and dirty.

[@madzabinga8382]

Was anyone else really alarmed by the fact that Jody suggested she had multiple "possessions", a "haunted" house, and reportedly "self-mutilated" arms? What in the seven hells was going on in her head? I would love to know more about this....

[@amymurch]

Wonder if she’s read Visions of Glory too because that’s scarily similar to Lori Vallow.

[@cwb1400]

I think she has serious mental illness and heavy emotional energy surrounded her. Self harm is serious. I believe she was very closeted, bitter, depressed (clinical depression) and angry and took it out on everyone around her. When people have mental illness, many times religious fervor comes into play and she took it to an extreme. It was unchecked Hyperreligiosity.

[@EmmaFlorez]

​@@amymurch yes! I can't remember the specifics, but Jordan & McKay, and I think Mormon Stories, have discussed Jodi's connection to VOG and its author. I think she was suffering from mental illness and believed she was having the same kinds of experiences detailed in VOG. Jodi seems to have a dangerous combination of spiritual psychosis, delusions of grandeur, systemic support from the LDS church, and other harmful traits.

[@jgr_lilli_]

​@@EmmaFlorezI agree! Very well put.

[@Ryka1100]

I totally agree it’s child sexual abuse. As an SA survivor, I was made to feel disgusting over and over again. It shaped so much of my self hatred. That something I had no control over made me bad in the eyes of god. It creates really unhealthy dynamics in relationships, especially if you stay in the church.

[@floraposteschild4184]

It's why some groups want to keep sex education out of schools. It makes children more vulnerable, in every way.

[@starsimvidz]

@@floraposteschild4184 most groups want to keep sex education out of schools purely because they think its impure and would rather their children remain ignorant. That is 1000000000x worse. sex education should be studied, regulated, and constantly updated. Moving it to unknown & unregulated spaces is a nightmare.

[@ursulanicsuibhne4972]

The irony of Jodie telling Janae she wasn't surprised her children misbehaved. Janae not in prison for child abuse.

[@ITalkAboutBruno]

I am not a Mormon. Never have been. I will say, I learn so much from this podcast. I have a decades long friend who has continuing family struggles because of the LDS. This podcast helps me understand her even more. I am reading the book of Mormon now to understand better. Thank you all for your kindness and courage and perspectives.

[@ITalkAboutBruno]

I am probably going to hell, but I took it from a hotel room once in Ypsilanti. I believe the statute of limitations has expired on this crime. Lol. I left Gideon because I know that one by heart.

[@MaryKathrynTantum]

Jodi offered a solution to “fix” children & marriages. Mormonism offers a solution for happiness, salvation & eternal families. BEWARE of any person or system that promises a simple solution to real, complex & messy life experiences. It sounds easy & appealing to have a “plan,” but you’re just avoiding the cost up front of inevitable future trauma. Years of therapy, complex PTSD symptoms, de-programming along with pernicious, pervasive lifelong battles with shame, guilt, anxiety and depression.

[@derrickfolkmanman]

I wish your words didn't resonate with me so strongly 😞

[@sirdidymus24]

@@derrickfolkmanman SAME.

[@pennyc11]

It was almost like Pam, Jodi, were vrying towards forming a female group. They were priming Ruby into this" company". Very little of what they did promoted good relationships. I agree with Kevin that they were anti-male involvement. However, this was supported by his lack of participation in parenting his children and in birth control. He let them make him the problem. Without actually identifying what really wasn't working in their relationship and family. This was close enough relationship that Ruby trusted Pam to take her children to keep them LE. Jessi knew Pam well. Kevin did not choose to see what a threat Jodi and Pam were to his children. Why I am concerned about their well-being. That they have been brain washed into not thinking or questioning others motivation. They did not feel any need to reach out even to dad to help their younger siblings. This is where I am mad at Kevin for. He cut off all communication with his children. Today it is a greater sin because we have cellphones. Parents are told of the threats to children. Especially daughters rely on father's protection. Girls are especially vulnerable when fathers are not a visable in their everyday lives. Watch the video of police finding teens that Pam and Roy's had at that home. She was evasive and truly believed Ruby had the right to farm out her children as domestic servants. The girls were taught this was their role in life. That care demands service. That being cared for was not an adult obligation. That isn't true. Being helpful is good but it comes with limits. Responsibility is limited. Children have so much to learn based on age appropriateness. They are not born to serve their parents.

[@lsun5322]

So true! Jessi Hildebrand said that they thought Jodi would have become a cult leader if she was a man and had the priesthood!

[@denalinde]

@@lsun5322She was a cult leader, in my opinion. She achieved that status years prior. She would have become an actual LDS leader if a man, most likely. 😢

[@saralyg]

I’m blown away that a man who is a university professor and father would let this happen. He rarely mentioned his kids during that interview … it was really odd.

[@tracivonkaenel3684]

AA saved my life but also I don’t follow the idea that I have a disease. I don’t focus on not drinking, I focus on living a healthy happy life, to be of service and to be true to Me.

[@sherielowe4256]

Pam Baucher needs to be exposed for her involvement.

[@whatthefifty]

💯

[@cactusgardener2060]

The idea of 'religious trauma' is so important for understanding your work. Thank you for this important discussion.

[@ginaross6382]

With all the craziness that he witnessed how in the hell could this man then conclude that it was a good idea to agree to move out of his home at the direction of this crazy women and leave his children behind.

[@raincadeify]

And that doesn't account for all the abuse the kids suffered from Kevin and Ruby before Jodi was on the scene. Kevin gets a pass apparently.

[@honeybearcares]

Kevin was part of my faith crisis. Preaching about 2008 Californing Prop 8 gay marriage law.... in Priesthood meeting!!! I was so cringed out that he was bringing it up in a very inappropriate setting and was enthusiastic about it. That was my last ward.

[@raincadeify]

But apparently Kevin is a friend of Mormon Stories and they're actually sending him well wishes with a promise not to "go after" him. That's reserved for the his co-conspirators.

[@honeybearcares]

@@raincadeify well this whole scenario for the last two years, he seems to be more victim than perp. But I don’t think Kevin and Ruby arrived where they were just because of Jodi. They were already on the more extreme orthodox side of believing in the church anyway.

[@raincadeify]

@@honeybearcares They were doing child abuse. I don't think that's the same as Mormon orthodoxy. Did you see the stuff from their channel? That's all pre Jodi, and Kevin participated. They should have had someone to help them but, but they had two adults against them; I don't understand why Kevin's not in jail too.

[@ruththecatlady]

@@raincadeifyyes I was really thrown by the well wishes. I have great sympathy for John because I know how hard it is with all the connections in our religious communities… but honestly the well wishing comment is an unintended slap in the face to the victims here. KF is not blameless.

[@moringsdaughter]

​@@raincadeify They were connected with Jodi while they had the channel. A lot of Ruby's most controversial statements and actions that got her channel shut down are philosophies she learned from Jodi.

[@loraleenunley7979]

Joseph smith the leader of his church spoke to not do things but he was doing them himself. Same as Jody H. Giving treatment to people that she was doing sinister things.

[@TeaandTacos77]

I think Natasha's point about abuse is correct because it teaches kids that their normal biological functions are evil and bad. It is the ultimate form of gaslighting and shaming.

[@gorgeousfrazier5903]

💯

[@saratullas5509]

22:32 I absolutely love how she held Kevin’s role, even if he wasn’t the main perpetrator, that he still needs to home held accountable for his own personal problematic behavior and parenting choices. Perfect way of explaining it in n a mature and respectful way.

[@anthonyflores9336]

Wow, the channel has really grown! I think doubled since I last watched an episode! Congrats John & Co.!

[@user-zw6gj4ex4w]

Janae, I remember being on that group phone call when Jodi said that to you. I always enjoyed talking to you. I support and agree with everything you’re saying about your experiences. I too got so bamboozled by her - emotionally and financially. I loved watching you.💕

[@janaesALLthat]

Love that you’re here! Wasn’t that moment a trip!?!?😂

[@nylimat727]

Sending you all love and prayers

[@SunsetChaser308]

Thank you Natasha for not letting Kevin off the hook.

[@Chris-dz4vh]

Agreed In my opinion Kevin was a victim in a sense, locked out. Locked out. But he tried to convict his own daughter of theft for grabbing items from the family home. This guy also has some horrifying reviews from his students at BYU. Many left his classes because he was so hostile and volatile. But, timeline unknown

[@khonkala665]

Yes! I can never un-see that scene. This man who had voluntarily not seen his children for a year, wanted his eldest daughter arrested. He wasn’t concerned about the children, he was concerned that she had entered the family home and retrieved some things for her siblings and some electronics. Good fathers always demand the police arrest their children before they talk to the children directly, right? (Sarcasm)

[@gacktist00]

he is only victim as a husband. as a father, I don't think he cared

[@MiraBoo]

@@gacktist00Agreed.

[@alextemus]

Fwiw, when he was my professor for a class in 2020, I thought he was one of the best in the department (this is a really low bar, professors choose that job in order to do research, the couple classes they teach are generally a required nuisance, rather than a passion). Kevin was one of the few who seemed to put real effort in his classes and cared about interactions with students. That totally could have changed as his life became more unhinged the next couple years, but he seemed too timid to really flip out at students (think your stereotypical nerdy engineer personality). I'd believe homophobic or other abrasive comments were possible given how conservative the school is though. I'd also believe the ratemyprofessor reviews were heavily manipulated by people who heard about the KZbin channel, not from students. Tough to know.

[@SatansRoerhat]

@@alextemus I don't think his female students had that same experience. Jordan and McKay went through the reviews and only read the old ones from long before the arrests.

[@lebethany53]

I am torn on my opinions of Kevin. I see him as a victim in a lot of ways. As a man in the church, when you are told that you are basically weak, pathetic, incapable, and simply a bad husband and father for having completely normal sexual desires, it can take a huge beating on your confidence, self-worth, and critical reasoning skills! I feel that between the church and Jodi, he was made to feel undeserving as a father, which is probably why he kept the distance that he did. However, there definitely should’ve been more interaction and introspection, more connection with the kids to see how they were doing, etc.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Well said

[@alextemus]

He was a well-respected professor who put a lot of effort in his classes and travelled constantly for geotechnical engineering projects and research (earth foundations for buildings, mines, earthquakes, etc.). I only say that to add that I think he chose to be away a lot and ignore problems at home too - both connection and worthiness issues in the eyes of Ruby and himself, and parenting issues.

[@agirly1503]

Maybe Kevin saw the flying plates with his "SPIRITUAL EYES" 😆😅😄

[@justtep7092]

Omg this is funny🤣🤣🤣

[@rhondamerritt928]

Thank you for interrupting and calling out what is obvious to most of us, such as a ‘therapist’ kicking you out of your own home, not to mention the financial repercussions of that, these ‘leaders’ backing up Jodi and her therapies, so gross all of it. And Kevin does not get a pass, he’s so checked out on so many levels. But he is not without fault, he stood by and watched what was happening and never said no.

[@dakalodk]

Son was not found. He escaped 😢

[@jeannerountree952]

Jodi didn't want to fix people. She wanted their money.

[@4UStevePerry]

She is a predator in every way. Her demon dreams ate maybe her conscience for doing such horrible things to the whole families.

[@denalinde]

Note about wilderness camps: yes there are predators, but there are also a lot of people who take kids out in harsh conditions where several kids have died from exposure to extreme heat or cold, lack of hydration, and other things the workers weren’t equipped to handle.

[@user-vn3kb1zu3o]

Thank you for calling out AA methods. I was deeply hurt, shamed and abandoned after months of being practically love bombed by the “caring community”. Only caring and inclusive when I was a good girl towing the party line. For me, it was a high demand group and I was excommunicated because I questioned some of their approach and beliefs. My “sponsor” was a controlling and unstable person, but I was told she had to have full access to all of my deepest darkest secrets, so her rejection of me after I chose to trust her without her having earned any of that trust… it hurt. It behaves exactly like a cult. Some good results yes but at what personal cost

[@stevedorecharley2849]

Right there with you.

[@user-vn3kb1zu3o]

@@stevedorecharley2849 I suspect I’m not alone

[@annamineer2521]

I thought to try AA, not because I couldn't not drink, but because I used it as an avoidance tactic. I did not experience love bombing. I was met very coolly and not really welcomed, so I didn't go back. I handled it without them.

[@user-vn3kb1zu3o]

@@annamineer2521 from my experience, the “in crowd” in meetings don’t like when someone doesn’t claim absolute powerlessness over alcohol and it’s a non negotiable that you choose to believe you have a terminal disease of alcoholism. It encourages and breeds dependency on the program for life. If you don’t agree and claim you know yourself what the flaws in your drinking are, you will be labelled as in denial. It’s agree totally to belong, or don’t belong at all. I don’t believe I am an alcoholic, but I have like you used it to escape my cptsd.

[@renedrake9407]

I am sorry that was your experience. How damaging it must be to trust and then be rejected like that. I try to remember that they are JUST people in recovery themselves. Take what's good and leave the rest of the mumbo-jumbo. I hope you are well and living your best life.

[@saraperugini7334]

Chewing ice is a common sign of anemia. That “addiction “ could possibly be resolved with bloodwork and iron supplements.

[@jgr_lilli_]

Yes! Ravenously craving ice and tomatoes is a common sign of anaemia. And anaemia is very common in people with a menstrual cycle! In some families it's even genetic to a degree.

[@emptynesters2520]

This story blew our minds! Can you imagine if little Russell, the HERO, hadn’t escaped? Unfortunately religious fanatics are becoming more and more extreme in their crazy behaviors and there is so much suffering that could’ve been avoided! Thank you to MS for bringing all this to light!

[@juliehatch9861]

He saved the children. Thank God the neighbor, man was home and stepped up and made awareness to the authorities.

[@annamineer2521]

Those children would be dead if he hadn't escaped and gone for help.

[@elisa-beary]

This was so beneficial. I wrote the final paper for my trauma course on Ruby & Jodi. I’ve experienced a much different version of AA. There are no leaders, it’s on the traditions. What I will say is there’s thousands of mtngs & thus, can vary. Finding ones with ppl your age or that you can relate to & even running the dynamic against the BITE modem could be valuable. I’ve had an amazing experienced, I got 2 w/ ppl mostly 25-40, super open minded & not religious. 💜

[@cynthiaroark1778]

I think there’s deception in Kevin’s story. During his first police interview, he said he’d never gone to Jodi’s and that Jodi was a good person. He also could have lied about the objects flying around, etc. Jodi is manipulative, a grifter. Her “possession” could have been an act to gain sympathy, attention, money, more clients, etc. And she could have resorted to trickery to cause noises, things flying around, etc. All known poltergeist cases have been debunked at this point. In famous cases, years after events, people confess that they used trickery as children and adults believed them. On the other hand, Jodi could have believed she was possessed and still embellished her story with trickery. If so, how did she miraculously recover? No one tortured the demons out of her like she felt had to be done with the children. This makes me think the whole thing was a ruse.

[@annamineer2521]

Demons are real, but they weren't inthose children...they're in Jodi. And Ruby.

[@catlyn777]

This therapist is very good! I really appreciate her comments.

[@jeanettemarie6456]

Love watching your show. Thank you for no Ads!! ❤

[@elisa-beary]

Thank you so much for those. All 3 of you had super valuable insights on this layered topic. John, I saw Book of Mormon last Friday & afterwards I was explaining some of the background to it based on all my time learning on this channel. Couldn’t help but wonder what the church did when they learned of & watched that musical take off. I tried to find an episode about it but didn’t.

[@acatnamedm4529]

That was the height of their 'I'm a Mormon' campaign (when saying Mormon wasn't a victory for Satan). They actually leaned into the musical taking ads out in the playbills saying something like 'Now that you're seen the musical, experience the real thing.'

[@lsun5322]

@@acatnamedm4529 yeah in London I remember seeing signs of “you’ve seen the musical, now read the Book of Mormon… the book is better!”

[@kjens8617]

Episodes 518-519 with Clark Johnsen. He was an original BOM Musical cast member.

[@acatnamedm4529]

@@kjens8617 His episodes were great

[@freyak552]

The children were put through the no win situation of pleasing Jodi and Ruby that Kevin describes. This is truly a vicious cycle. These women should stay incarcerated for the maximum number of years.

[@cindykaneshiro4096]

I have never been a Mormon. I saw John Dehlin on Cults to Consciousness. I only came to Mormon Stories because of my experience with Latter Day Saints Missionaries. I am really glad that I subscribed and watch Mormon Stories frequently. You have given me the vocabulary to understand what I am going through. I am going through a faith transition. I like the long detailed interviews because I have learned so much....not so much about Mormonism but how damaging being part of a patriarchal religious sect has been to me. Natasha Helfer's sexual health information has really been eye opening. I would not have defined myself as a victim of the purity culture because I never experienced the weird purity culture rituals that exist today. She enlightened me by making me aware that I was deeply ashamed of normative sexual behavior. I thought I was righteously ashamed of my "sinful' sexual behavior. I thought feeling lust was shameful. My Christian sect just like the later day saints believed that to just think a "sinful" thought was to do the actual act. My mind is changing. I appreciate Mormon Stories. I appreciate your long form.

[@MichaelSizer]

THANK YOU for saying that you don't consider Kevin to be blameless. Based on what has been made available to the public, while I don't know whether he could be considered legally to blame, he certainly is guilty of failing to protect his children. Granted from an outsider's perspective it's easy to criticize but I truly believe that no matter how understanding we try to be, he had a duty to step in long before law enforcement got involved.

[@phoenixrising1675]

Lori Vallow and Ruby Franke were so controlling. These woman were so abusive to their husbands and children..

[@hobgoblin1976]

How can a witch like that mistreat so many children for so long without the husband being any wiser? It is hard to believe he did not have any knowledge of what was going on.

[@Normaschthewanderer]

Because he was more concerned with people thinking he was a sex addict.

[@annamineer2521]

He absolutely didn't care. When the police brought him in, he didn't even inquire about the condition of his children. He only cared about Ruby.

[@Teajay21]

For a period of time he was completely cut off from the children, so I believe he didn't know the worst of it but it was absolutely his responsibility to have been attempting to contact them, checking in with family etc and he did nothing as far as we know. I think he valued his marriage more than his children.

[@kentthalman4459]

This session is far better than the title suggests. Every Mormon should listen to this Mormon Story.

[@heatherhammersmith8997]

Isn't Pam also the one that Ruby profusely apologized to during her statement to the court? Something like not wanting her to look bad or be associated to the CA in any way.

[@VirginiaGeorge]

They have been sentenced, but Utah has different sentencing guidelines than most states. They are sentenced to 4-30 years and the Parole Board will determine when they are released. The files were released after their 30 day window of appeal had closed.

[@avantgauche]

the way Kevin talks about the KZbin cancelling is really disturbing he speaks like there was no justification for it. People were rightly concerned about their children and for their basic welfare ie access to food and healthcare even under those circumstances those worries were legitimate and justified and all he can talk about is the effect it had on ruby

[@kathymunsee6468]

John Dehlin. You are bad! Im bcoming ADDICTED to your video programs. I cant functiin withou 3 or 4 videos a day & its getting worse Dr John. I need your help. Do you have any suggestions? I even take my phone to bed. What is your diagnosis? Help

[@amysmiles9751]

I just saw 4 hrs, yeah, but I might have to save this for tomorrow.

[@loraleenunley7979]

Right??

[@willemiendebruin8559]

I am also addicted to these videos, and there is also Cult to Continuous. I take it to bed, kitchen and.....the bathroom. I don't think there is a cure for me! Keep up the good work ❤️

[@laurenmay2098]

Thank you, I am not the only one 😂😂😂. I am not a Mormon, never was, but addicted to this channel. I am learning so much. I guess my evangelical background explains my fascination for the topic.

[@jeannerountree952]

I did a phone abstinence for 24 hours about a month ago. It really worked well for me. I may have to do it again.

[@user-pg2vv5pr7i]

Love this discussion sooo much! Thank you. Also thank you John for defending AA there a little bit.. I don’t think anyone can understand how much it helps people unless you are an actual self admitted alcoholic/addict. I wouldn’t compare it to Jodie’s classes in anyway.

[@hallymariah45]

Thank you for saying that no one has the right to tell you to leave your home. My son and his wife were not getting along. My son had a brain tumor that had resurfaced after an operation...He also had another brain injury. He was going down fast. He'd just had an operation on his back and was always in pain it seemed to me. He and his wife came to my apartment and my son's head was blown up almost twice it's size...My son did not know how he got that except to say he thinks he fell out of bed, or a seizure. He was like a wound sheep. When he was strong and working, bringing home the money his wife was so fine with him having a beer but now he could not do anything right. She wanted him out and a divorce. He was heart broken....There was so many symptoms to his wounds...He took his life insurance and put it out so she could see it and shot himself in the head and died. My heart will always be broken...He was not perfect...But She wanted him out when he should have been on palliative care...I believe. After he died she couldn't say enough good things about him.

[@paprikanika2145]

John has the best, most soothing podcast voice. I am interested in the topics but sometimes I put on his podcast to get soothed to sleep. Then I have to listen again during the day. Best voice

[@charlabell2106]

I just listened to Kevin talking to the police for the second time. Not once does he express grief for how horrible the children were treated. He sounds like a very immature adult. He didn't even try to stand up for his children or himself. He definitely sounds like a teenage boy, not a man. I hope the kids are never given back to him. He can't even take care of himself.

[@laurawestcrowe9909]

Before Kevin moved out, there’s absolutely no way he didn’t know what was going on. He is complicit with all of it.

[@Danger_Zone_007]

Kevin Franke needs to be in prison as well. He threw his kids to the wolves. He is a weak man.

[@annamineer2521]

Yes, he is. He didn't even ask about the conditions of his children at all, only Ruby.

[@Elina--]

I love these episodes with Natasha and others discussing about this case!! Always listening till the end 🩷

[@lisalemonjello1462]

Dr. Dehlin, I know you know this, but regarding self-$arm, one of the main reason people report doing it is because the physical pain dulls the emotional pain.

[@mamadspeachyworld5190]

For years my husband and his brothers hated their mother and blamed her for the abuse. But the more i listened and paid attention to what had happened it was the stepfather that was behind the abuse. And in the end he was the one that caused the finally beating that the kids were taken away... but yet they still blamed the mother and praised the father as the hero. What father eats steak and has their kids go hungry in front of them....the abuser thats who. Who neglects his wife when she is in need but an abuser.... To look from a different lens the truth will come to light. Stop giving Kevin a pass...

[@pamelavargas6811]

I don't agree with everything the panelists say, but agreeing to disagree is how I learn and understanding through someone else's eyes...❤

[@Hallahanify]

What do you disagree with?

[@chuzilla83]

I can attest to the deluded mormon obsession with purity. I was born and raised mormon, and when I was in 5th grade, I got childhood cancer. I did come close to dying, but I beat it, and I'm in my 40s now. My parents found out when I was a teen that my boyfriend and I were having sex. (like teens do) My dad, in the midst of an argument about my virginity, told me he wished I would have died when I had cancer because then I would have gone straight to heaven. Now, there's no hope for me, and my only place after death is hell. That was one of the most hurtful things I have ever been told. My parents wished I would have died. Now they wonder why I don't speak to them or go to church.

[@tonihoban8350]

Wonderful, amazing interview! I love this show, John!

[@thefabfreelancerproject6728]

Excellent content and evaluation! Such important work you are doing.

[@mormonstories]

Thank you so much 🙂

[@saratullas5509]

Jodi’s entire M.O. was projecting her own shames and insecurities and things she hated about herself and her life onto other people.

[@Chris-dz4vh]

Yay glad to check in with ypu guys again. Been watching the Daybell Trial..yikes..

[@whitefluffydogs9278]

All this time, I thought Alma was a woman (it is a woman’s name in Spanish), and now I learn it’s a man! So much for crediting Mormonism with some trace of feminism!

[@dawnvarty657]

I listened live last night, but have to listen again because there was so much covered. I laughed out loud at the point you talked about Jodi adapting the AA model but adding a 13th step. In AA there is already an unofficial 13th step which is sleeping with someone in the group. 😂😂😂

[@mormonstories]

😂😂😂

[@cwb1400]

Kevin is at fault as well! His behavior should be questioned. He allowed terrible things to happen to his own kids long before jodi came along. He was there supporting the abuse while they had their YT channel. He allowed and participated in the abuse. He is not innocent! Kevin proved he would not protect himself nor protect his kids then plays victim. I’m so tired of these men of the church getting let off the hook. He has a lot of blame in this. He was hurting those kids before they met Jodi. This episode irritated me to no end. Luckily the therapist had some sense.

[@michellecarlson6427]

Another fabulous episode! Thanks John & Mormon Stories!

[@happix-mo4441]

Leaving the church cured my OCD, and the hate I had for myself, because I was never perfect enough.

[@jeff-fah-fah]

The stuff about accountability buddies is taken from the sponsorship concept in 12 Step programs. Calling another addict/alcoholic when in distress or when tempted to relapse is also common advice in the 12 Step world.

[@user-tc1yh7lx7z]

Chad got kicked out of his room for playing a prank on his brother. That his own mother kicks hogties starves with glee. When Jodi is not even there according to her diary.

[@gossipgal1418]

I don’t know how you can excuse Kevin Frank’s. He is just as responsible as anybody else if not more, the fact that they exploited their children makes him the responsible party. He put them out on the Internet and he sat back and watch the whole thing go down, so to excuse him is unacceptable and pretty surprising!

[@MKUltra42]

Another great show with great guests. I appreciate the explanation of the layers to be found under the surface of abuse by people like Jody, Ruby, the Daybells, etc. I try to always mention the podcast in comment sections of other creators covering these cases because it brings so much deeper understanding.

[@whatthefifty]

What a fantastic and riveting episode! Great job to all. It’s hard to understand how Kevin could fall prey to Jodi’s tactics UNLESS you have an intimate & personal understanding of LDS culture & theology. Every single dyed-in-the-wool devout Mormon is a potential victim to cults, because they are IN a cult already themselves, oftentimes ignorantly. If you grow up LDS you have no idea how controlled you are until you’re out. Kevin is going to need some intense detox therapy not only from what Jodi and Ruby did to him, but from the Mormon church in general.

[@rebeccacoyle5438]

An LDS 12 step program done in this context is really off center. Alcoholics Anonymous is not therapy, as a matter of fact, one of the premises of the group is that we are not there to fix each other. There is no cross talk allowed. We gather to share our individual experiences as a way to show people who are in the thick of it that they can recover. The Steps are personal. They are done by yourself and people are encouraged to share either with a counselor or clergy or a sponsor from within the group. The sponsor is not supposed to be a therapist. But a sounding board. There is a wonderful community to be found there.

[@mormonstories]

Love this.

[@stevedorecharley2849]

Here to respectfully comment that while 12 step programs CAN be as good as you describe, they are often not that at all. I had multiple experiences of shaming and coercion. It was very bad for me.

[@rebeccacoyle5438]

@@stevedorecharley2849 Absolutely, this does happen sometimes, each group tends to have its own "flavor". I stopped going to one particular group because of that. They can also be gossipy. Having said that, if they are truly practicing the 12 traditions (as a healthy group should) they are less likely to be judgmental. Remember, AA is certainly about the 12;steps, but there are the 12; traditions, and 12 concepts. Steps are for the individual, traditions are for the group, and concepts are for AA as a whole. If those things are out of sync, then the group suffers. When the founders of AA began to meet, there were a number of different iterations, but over time with sobriety and the wisdom that comes with it Bill Wilson and Bob Smith were able to really hone in to the precepts that have led millions to sobriety. Myself being one of them. AA doesn't cost a thing, there is no pressure to put money in the basket, there is no one person in charge.

[@pollysshore2539]

I have followed Dr. David Ley and Nicole Prouse for several years. I appreciate their evidence based critiques on sex addictions. Every once in a while David shares questions from sex addiction inventories. Things like (the gist) - have you ever had sex to release stress or tension? Science tells us that sex and masturbation help release stress and tension. Who hasn’t done this? How is this question used to measure “addiction”? Well, there are only a couple ways it makes sense. The belief that sex is only partaken in for procreation is one.

[@mormonstories]

Fascinating Polly

[@foxtrottaa]

I just learned that an extended family member, a Mormon, who had a porn 'addiction' is now specializing in porn 'addiction'. Oh my... The wheels just keep turning.

[@PrixyPurple]

John you are so deferential to random chat people who seem to me to just deliberately misunderstand you. It’s very impressive really

[@cc-hk5ih]

Before all the Jody influence these two parents, it has to be said they willingly exploiting their children online for money. They were bringing up their children in a strict fashion and both willing to show and participate in this. They made as Kevin said millions in income by doing this. This alone is not right their children did not consent, and by making their lives public and profiting from them to the point that Ruby was a nice rich, picking for Jody was done by exploting their children. These are the Mormon influencers who were warched by millions . Let us not forget that. It amazes me also that someone clearly showing such signs of severe mental health issues should have been tended to by ordinary people who put children in danger. Why didnt that Bishop do something well because he had no training and should have recognised that and referred her Jody to mental health professionals. While I see Kevins dilemma, I cant understand why he didnt fight for his kids. I also wonder why he didnt want his daughter to have the computers out of the house. He and Ruby are victims, yes, but they are not without guilt for starting the ball rolling and by abusing their roles as Mormon parents on line . Jody was propped up by the Church and saw the Frankes coming and exploited all the wrong perceptions of so called religious morality. No one here is without guilt. The children are the true victims of their parents, their parents' religion, and jody. I hope the lawyers dont eat up the money their children earned and that their Dad takes a good look at what led them to this awful place. Regards Cc wonderful discussion

[@jessigradillas1433]

So glad Natasha is on this ep! Thank you guys for always having amazing guests

[@SunsetChaser308]

Can we address how many LDS leaders were enforcing Jodi’s recommendations and therapies that were basically holding a lot of these men captive from their relationships and families? If Jodi wouldn’t have had any backup and enforcement from church leaders, I feel like a lot of the blackmail type power she held over peoples heads would have been evaporated. These men were afraid to lose their temple recommends, jobs, or who knows if she would have concocted stories to try to put them in jail. Not to mention the huge financial burden she forced on these people to remain in her therapy groups.

[@emilyfrench6839]

I appreciate this. However, the earliest concern vis-a-vis Kevin is over the 8 passengers $$ he and his wife made from being family vloggers. The decision to benefit that way is completely separate from Mormonism I think. That form of child exploitation is also wrong.

[@Jade18E]

There was quite a culture boom of morman family vloggers and influencers around 2015 -doing this daily vlog style filming. The Shaytard’s were one of the OG family channels on YT, promoted LDS events, and Mormon journaling + YT. Mormonism being the base to the parenting and the channels like the Franke’s/8P. There was $$ to made and a lot of profit from the filming children for content, exploitation and face of a good Mormon family on a public platform ‼️

[@cinziamargaretti]

Great guests and topic!!!!❤❤❤❤

[@tonilizama3739]

Thank you for always explaining every side. I hope the kids find peace and healing after being exposed to these things. Thanks for all your work!

[@Lula2979]

Thank you Much love to you all ❤

[@anneeastaway2311]

Great content

[@jennydiver100]

Oh no, one more more thing! Thank you Natasha for calling out the 12 steps! Someone needs to deep dive into the problems with the model. Thanks!

[@christinecrowley2133]

I'm still disturbed knowing Ruby may only serve 4yrs. Kevin being in a grey area has alot to overcome. Everything about this has been shocking. Don't see anything changing.

[@_Nat_A_]

I’m curious how Jodi earned her Masters in Educational Psychology and became the go to person about sex addiction? She didn’t have her PhD. Wouldn’t her clinical education be in the Education system, doing assessments and learning how to help in an Education setting. How did she qualify for her Board. Since she didn’t have a PhD, she wasn’t a Psychologist, but a Psychotherapist. (I’m from another country and only University Profs, PhD and PsyD are Psychologists)How did she get out of her wheelhouse?

[@jennylhenry78]

I think bc she lost her therapists license, she realized she could be a life coach, or "mental fitness trainer," and just make up stuff that she couldn't get in trouble for since she was no longer a therapist under the supervision of licensing.

[@alextemus]

Just a thought: how did George Santos become a US representative with all the lies and fraud he's done along the way? Sometimes people are just good at lying and sometimes start to even believe they're own lies.