Wait... Did Ori and the Will of the Wisps copy Hollow Knight?

[@mossbag69]

So... since this video came out, a story broke about Moon Studio's toxic workplace environment. A lot of contractors working at Moon expressed their displeasure interacting with Mahler and Korol. There were issues with inappropriate language and crunch culture. One interesting thing from the article is that it claims Mahler would openly bash games that his fellow developers worked on. It reminded me of how he talked about other games on ResetEra and NeoGAF. There's a whole lot more details to this story, and I think it's better you just read it for yourself. But heads up, it's a long, depressing read: venturebeat.com/2022/03/18/despite-its-beautiful-ori-games-moon-studio-is-called-an-oppressive-place-to-work/

[@minty2733]

well yikes

[@Weegeeboi21]

Damn

[@wreckateer]

Didn't surprise me

[@Lennon-ls3jy]

It's so annoying when such great art gets tainted by the artist

[@mrlizard8940]

I hope those people who worked under them got properly compensated, that crunch culture is enough to kill a man tbh

[@Mulch4321]

Moons and cherries are also both round objects, surprised you missed that one, pretty deep cut tho

[@Mulch4321]

Im lying, the video was posted 7 minutes ago, I have no idea what he missed

[@thatmagichatguy8761]

@@Mulch4321 oh i read the comment and was really confused i didnt recognize moons or cherries, the joke is funny, ahhhh i ruined it now :(

[@mariobartolini2158]

@@F41nt13 full moons tho

[@sharkronical]

@@Mulch4321 how dare you to lie in the internet

[@aidenmclaughlin1076]

Coincidence?! I THINK NOT!!

[@timiman007]

"has been discussed by some of the greatest minds of this generation" "This is Keemstar"

[@nicobychok1037]

Something's wrong, I can feel it

[@stuffstuff3455]

"I can't imagine myself being upset about a game being inspired by one of my favorite games." - shyguymask, fireb0rn's comment section in 'stop calling new metroidvanias hollow knight rip offs'.

[@word69420]

It’s shameless that Nintendo is ripping off Hollow Knight with Metroid Dread

[@peteirrook8556]

The problem is not that they were inspired the problem is that its obvious but when they were asked about it they said they never even heard about HK cause they ego is way toooo big

[@stuffstuff3455]

Yeah. When moon does that, it makes me question whether or they deserve the Ori franchise. What if Ori and the will of the wisps was made by a non competitive team?

[@saitamaharuhiko8337]

I, personally, just hate the attitude of the Ori and the Will of the wisp's creators being: "we are here to make a perfect metroidvania" And not admitting to those elements that clearly more Hollow Knight inspired than other games. And it's just that the game isn't that well balanced and polished gameplay-wise, and when they make such statements, I will just hate on them.

[@pegtor700]

Exactly its just more of what you already love how could you be mad

[@spaceinvader4069]

Both games also have a ranged attack option, and rocks. This was first made popular in Pacman 2. Thus, both games are pretty much clones of that. As is fortress craft.

[@Nate2010]

pacman 2 has a ranged attack?

[@Nate2010]

how do you make a ranged weapon in fucking pacman

[@B14z3rather]

@@Nate2010 so basically

[@legendarygabe1143]

every game is a pong ripoff because it's a Game

[@Nate2010]

@@legendarygabe1143 every book is a ripoff of the dictionary because words

[@OmAr-sr1sn]

Weird that both metroid and dark souls are heavily inspired by zelda but zelda just gets "adventure game" as a genre, lol.

[@iopklmification]

well...for the 3D games I don't see many games that tried to do a similar formula. Adventure games in 3D often involve more platforming or more emphasis on combat. There are some open world games that took a lot of inspiration from BOTW (like Genshi Impact) but they don't emulate the series, just this game. The influence of 2D Zeldas is mostly felt in rogue lite nowadays and those game have a very different structure than the Legend of Zelda. But another reason may be that Zelda games tend to be quite different from each other... much more than Castlevania or Metroid games, so there is no clear formula to follow.

[@agata-1337]

also castlevania (both the classics and post-SotN) have huge zelda inspirations too so thats just weird

[@Ashipwreckedguy]

The thing about Zelda as a series is that it abandoned its non linear formula that inspired so many other developers pretty quickly. The core "get item -> unlock progress" idea is still there but with some exceptions it happens linearly in almost every game after Zelda 1. So despite inspiring them, it abandoned what made Zelda very "Metroidvania".

[@ArcanaEric]

Zelda in general is a pretty simple and easy to understand franchise, that's a big part of its allure. The mechanics in the games themselves aren't incredibly deep, but the game design around them is so good that it makes them shine regardless.

[@moritzbayer5658]

I would say that zelda is more of a adventure game in the form of a story, because your journey is so linear. While darksouls and hollow knight feels more like a adventure, because it doesn't have a clear line to follow and you can kind of freely explore the world. Now that I think about it, because I never played castlevania or metroid, I compare it more to darksouls a game I played and just call it a metroidvania, because everyone else does it, even though I would call it a souls born game.

[@sethfeldpausch4337]

So long as a game has its own identity and it isn’t literally ripping assets from another, I think taking inspiration from other great games is totally fine. The fact that Will of the Wisps has more Hollow Knight like combat, made it an even better game. I love both game series and can’t wait to see where they go next!(TC please give us some word on Silksong, I’m dying of thirst😭)

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

Yes. The CLOSEST thing to copying was having very similar systems like charms, but even then obviously the context of that system isn't actual physical charms like in hollow knight but instead spirit related, and also all of the effects being different, still means it's far from copying

[@gatst7680]

@@JacobPDeIiNoNi The only thing I would even consider remotely close to directly taken from Hollow Knight would be how regeneration works, but even that I'm sure has been done in plenty of other games

[@JacobPDeIiNoNi]

@@gatst7680 Yeah that's also close but again, it's not something HK came up with nor is it exactly the same. You're right. Ori WOTW has similarities to HK and may take some inspiration but by no means "copies" it. Yep.

[@ThatDjinn]

Indeed. I don't care if something is a ripoff (as long as assets are not ripped) - if there is a market for more of the same, why not capitalize on that? I remember this topic came up back when Genshin Impact was being called a ripoff of Zelda BotW and Nintenfans would unironically destroy PS4's out of spite for having a game similar to what was on their beloved consoles. Also that one oldschool-animation platform-boss-rush game with 2 mage kids that was apparently ripping off Cuphead. I thought it looked cool and would probably buy it, but I don't even know what's happening with it now (I think kickstarter may have failed?)

[@atijohn8135]

​@@gatst7680 I didn't even have the regeneration ability throughout most of the game on hard mode and I was fine with it. It's nowhere near as significant of a mechanic as in Hollow Knight. And as you already said, getting mana for spells, including healing, through damaging an enemy is a concept that's been around since a while, and it's a pretty good game design, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be inspired by that.

[@DementedDuskull]

Let's not kid ourselves, Ori and the Will of the Wisps obviously stole most of its ideas from Ori and the Blind Forest.

[@maky7295]

Not wanting to be a hater or something, but Hollow Knight Silksong looks SO similiar to Hollow Knight, they even copied one of the characters!! Smh

[@Melecie]

will of the wisps completely stole the iconic bash ability from ori and the blind forest, smh

[@jeni1297]

World War 2 must've stolen ideas from World War 1 too. It just had the same characters and a new overpowered combat mechanic

[@ananthrayanapati1174]

can you believe it ori and the will of the wisps stole the same design for the main character from ori and the blind forest

[@SebMegronski]

Will of the Wisps completely copied the first half of the blind forest's name, smh

[@Blizzic]

People place way too much value on ideas. Ideas are cheap. Everything has been done before. What really matters is *execution*. How ideas are mixed together to make a coherent whole is much more important than the ideas themselves.

[@731freeman]

I mean yeah, everyone has a billion ideas. We should definitely put more merit in the execution of ideas instead of the ideas themselves.

[@inkorporeal204]

@@731freeman Yes, specially since executing ideas by itself is very very hard

[@drbuni]

You speak like someone who never had a good idea in their life. As Mr. David Lynch said in the past, good ideas should be treasured.

[@calinguga]

@Andrew Pyle no one said it was exclusively idea or originality related. i absolutely agree everything takes inspiration from stuff before it, and the vast majority of insight consists of really tiny steps, but, first of all, it's still insight and still new, to some degree. and second, originality, although absolutely not sufficient for a good idea, is indeed necessary, it's in the definition of development. (dr buni said "good" ideas, not "new" ideas anyway.) because @blizzic how are mixing ideas together, or the plan of executing something a certain way, not ideas in themselves? this strikes me as a distinctly fabricated dichotomy. also, how would superbly executing a shit idea work out?

[@ZeroKitsune]

@@drbuni You speak like someone who's so proud of their ideas but hasn't actually created anything out of them in their life. Playing amateur psychologist is really easy too, you know.

[@Painbow]

I loved how you depicted Blizzard as a bunch of people burning.

[@bluehero-96]

Said the "EXPLOSION!" girl.

[@serraramayfield9230]

Based Mossbag

[@justsomeannoyingredpanda]

@@serraramayfield9230 *mossbag

[@HealingBlight]

This is inaccurate as fire burns everyone equally.

[@uchihaaniq7845]

Ex...ploosioon

[@Greenomb]

So what I take from this video: These kinds of discussions are inevitable, repetitive, and utterly pointless.

[@LuperisNone]

Or are they?

[@lakthederg]

@@LuperisNone DUNDUN DUUUUUN

[@AGrotesqueMess]

@@LuperisNone *vsauce music plays*

[@eggseed6543]

​@@LuperisNonehey, vsauce! Michael here. People oftenly see similarities on things that they don't fully know or understand as an attempt to grasp some understanding of it, that could be the cause of discussions... BUT!

[@ArchitectofGames]

Wait a sec... I recognize that voice...

[@shoda9939]

What

[@qassim1233]

yeah gmtk's video on what makes a metroidvania was pretty cool

[@JoshtheOverlander]

I KNEW IT! HE WAS THE ICEBERG ALL ALONG!

[@BinkysCorner]

@@shoda9939 Adam makes an appearance in the dark souls section around 22:45 :)

[@shoda9939]

@@BinkysCorner thanks

[@Crazy_Diamond_75]

I'm really glad Team Cherry literally joined the fray to get everyone to calm down. There are a lot of creative types in many genres, not just games, who like to inflame plagiarism controversy by playing the victim, when really, everyone is drawing from a set of inspirations somewhere. Something else I thought about once I got later into the video. You have that discussion about how Team Cherry actively avoided even calling the game a "Metroidvania," instead focusing on what felt good to them at the time. I think there's a lot more to be said about that philosophy vs the more top-down, systems-based design that Ori had, and the different kinds of fan feedback they produce. Obviously Ori "feels" really good to play, but you also don't have nearly as many people going on about how personal it felt to them. Meanwhile, HK, which in many ways isn't as polished and streamlined, has tons of people who have been obsessing over it for 5 years now. You rightly talk about how the community aspect that all the hidden areas really fosters a community aspect, but I also think that simply having a more organic-feeling experience, even if imperfect, can really get people to feel like they have more ownership over that piece of art.

[@alphamineron]

But you’re been so vague with the “organic” design… what exactly is that? Just the fact that they didn’t follow a genre style but ended up being in that genre at the end of their design journey? Just that sets it apart? Could you explain?

[@Crazy_Diamond_75]

@@alphamineron so, it's been a year since I made the comment, and I don't remember *exactly* what my train of thought was, but I think I was specifically contrasting "organic" with the "top-down" approach of Ori. Ori's design is very prescriptive: we want to make x kind of game, therefore we need items a, b, c, and d. Here is where we need to stay consistent, here is where we can innovate. HK, on the other hand, was designed around a "feeling." Specifically, the feeling of exploring a lost and abandoned world. That's not a genre. In fact, in my opinion, HK shares a lot of DNA with Subnautica and Outer Wilds, which are completely different genres, but are also very preoccupied with the "feeling" of exploration. There's no set of well-established prescriptive steps to take or game elements to implement to make a game like that. It's something that you literally have to "feel" out as you go. It's hard to describe in more detail than that, but as someone who has worked both on projects that I tightly planned before metaphorically breaking ground, and ones that I had to figure out as I go along, they are very distinct approaches and you can usually tell which is which in the results. I guess the last thing I'll say, and one of the things I love about that "organic" approach is that the things you've already created are your sole guide. That positive feedback where you're using the things you've already built for inspiration can take you places you might never have thought of in a design-first approach. Edit: one last thing. HK is also significantly rougher around the edges than Ori. I think imperfections often show a lot more of the creators' personalities and priorities, and can also lend to that feeling of being "organic." Games that have been over-tuned can often feel sterile and soulless. One of my favorite examples of this is Morrowind. That game is absolutely broken once you know how to manipulate its systems, but it's also one of my top 3 RPGs of all time for the sheer freedom it gives you.

[@alphamineron]

@@Crazy_Diamond_75 I see, thanks for taking the time to elaborate! When I was comparing Ori and HK, I was intrigued because before playing the two; I’d always choose Ori, in fact I bought Ori 2yrs ago and only just bought HK. Played Ori last month and then HK this month. But I’ve already forgotten Ori, and I remember not caring a single bit about the story or the map… it felt very out of touch and video gamey to me. The village building and movement were my favorite but I felt that game lacked post-game content to make use of those things and the story itself was frustrating to me. But HK? It keeps me coming back. I couldn’t care about its story either but I must say it’s phenomenal in most aspects. The world building slowly caught up to me and running into Marrisa the blonde singer in city of tears was awestruck moment for me that made me feel the melancholy vibe I loved in Horizon Zero Dawn. Made HK one of my favorites…

[@diamondking1987]

Completely agree with hollow knight feeling a lot like subnautica @@Crazy_Diamond_75

[@dj_koen1265]

I honestly feel like hollow knight is more polished than ori Especially the art design is more crisp in hk One thing that I really didn’t like about ori is how it didn’t inmerse me at all, whether it was the clunky combat or the hard to parse art design Idk But something about it felt off

[@ShadowScorp99]

"Is trying to find the bathroom in a crowded mall after eating chipotle a Metroidvania Souls-like experience?" I'm fucking dying from this line.

[@unity9760]

I think it is

[@zojirushi1]

Fr 📠 😂

[@zojirushi1]

Irl souls like speedrun experience!

[@Krystalmyth]

Yes. Honestly a game where you have that kind of urgency would be awesome. Imagine a Metroidvania with the escape sequence driving the entire game, with the Dread of Sonic drowning.

[@joedorben3504]

Specifically, it's like Hollow Knight. If you fail to find it you lose everything, and any annoyance that can possibly cause that nightmare scenario will undoubtedly be in your way

[@janethompson7444]

"In a surprising turn of events for an online gaming forum, the thread soon became a complete dumpster fire." I love you mossbag

[@stripedrajang3571]

😂

[@alex.g7317]

Don't we all love mossy bags?

[@juanrodriguez9971]

"roguelikes are bullshit" Me, a rougelike enjoyer: I have never felt so offended by something I agree with.

[@domagojgalekovic8507]

Roguelikes are the best relaxation after a tiring 8 hour shift

[@juanrodriguez9971]

@@domagojgalekovic8507 The last 3 days I have been trying so hard on beating the boss rush with Isaac and failed way more than when I played normally. It's anything but relaxation.

[@brya9681]

I'm jealous you are either a teenager or jobless cuz a game that makes you start over ain't respecting my adult amount of time for leisure

[@juanrodriguez9971]

@@brya9681 look bro, playing rogue likes is like playing cards or any board game, starting over and over again can be fun, a game doesn't need to have an start and a finish to be fun, neither to have multiplayer. Play a game even if you keep losing, at the end of the day feeling in some way has more to do with the way you think and not with the circumstances you are surrounded.

[@domagojgalekovic8507]

@@brya9681 Adult time means what? My work time fluctuates depending on the project i'm doing since I'm a freelancer. Sometimes i pull an 8 hour and sometimes it's 4-6h, rarely there's 12 hour shifts. It's all about organization fam. Sure i might not have a family but i live alone and i do a fair bit of work myself.

[@elijahparish3763]

“Will of the wisps is like blind forest influenced by hollow knight’s combat” is one hell of an endorsement if you ask me

[@rojey5211]

Yeah I’m literally gonna play it based off that

[@pwr4]

​@@rojey5211 don't support moon studios because wellll just read the top comment

[@destinyhntr]

That's literally all I thought when playing it (after playing both BF and HK). They seemed to like HK's combat and implemented it into their game. I'm not complaining.

[@cherandshane2683]

Hell, Ori and The Blind forest's combat was rushed and unfinished itself, given time it could have been more than *spam X*

[@Camothor10]

@@pwr4dont care + didnt ask + i wont let their hardwork go to waste

[@RelyeaGaming]

Amazing video. Like a full on documentary. I’m blown away by the quality. 1:09:55 missed opportunity for Wayward compass brought my dad home joke. Other than that, perfection

[@smo7089]

AND we're also provided with the entire script and a complete list of all the sources + music credits... Outstanding. I feel like I should have paid for this video, damn.

[@JouganNeon]

I’m mad that he didn’t do that joke. I’m physically in pain now

[@SymmetricalDocking]

If he touches it up for the Deluxe Video Edition, he also missed the chance to go back and re-reference his 10:39 Notch quote. Games will be the best they ever be if you take inspiration from everything, but if your timing is during the peak popularity of a game you take heavy inspiration from, wrong or not, it will come across to the audience as inauthentic money chasing.

[@jamessturrs8550]

Wayward Compass is amazing but there's no way it's that powerful... Is there?

[@HuManl0g]

Yo

[@frankleemadere9020]

"Is trying to find the bathroom in a crowded mall after eating Chipotle, a metroidvania/souls-like experience?" Yes.

[@fizzled4life]

Someone should make a game like that.

[@User-1939t9]

if there's anything i want people to take away from this video it's this quote

[@ShadowWizard123]

Chipoople

[@epicsharkmonster6605]

this part played in the video as i read this comment

[@the866-sushi]

Perfect comedy

[@theblob2937]

“The perfect game,” in my opinion, is not achievable. Even within a certain genre, different tastes appeal to different games. I once saw someone saying that the bugs in cyberpunk 2077 made the game more immersive. They ENJOYED the bugs. Heck, B games like Sexy Hiking have a certain charm that some people love. So video games are like food. You can make YOUR perfect metroidvania, but it’s impossible to make one for all.

[@b222a5]

Well if video games are like food then Hollow Knight is my KrispyKreme Doughnuts.

[@alfalldoot6715]

Yeah but that was just hyperbole from Moon Studios.

[@randomnerd4600]

i like mm2, its a fun nes game, but ask a random gamer and they will say its too hard. so yeah.

[@MakenaForest]

@@randomnerd4600 mm2 isnt too hard, but it shows its age in many ways. if i trusted the devs with a 2d remake, id ask for one

[@randomnerd4600]

@@MakenaForest i said hard for a random gamer, not for a skilled gamer

[@DementedDuskull]

It's weird how the Ori devs keep referencing Super Meat Boy when last time I checked Ori does not have a single buzzsaw in it. Hollow Knight on the other hand....

[@mrjuicejar_yvk]

haha white palace go bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[@drownedtrashrat3501]

@@mrjuicejar_yvk fr tho, I just recently went through there and it was p a i n

[@mrjuicejar_yvk]

@@drownedtrashrat3501 I legit almost had a mental breakdown the first time traversed the white palace lul. But that's more of a me problem.

[@drownedtrashrat3501]

@@mrjuicejar_yvk no, no, that's more of a 'the pale king is a psycho' problem

[@sethfeldpausch4337]

😂TC definitely took inspiration from Meatboy for the White Palace specifically. It’s kinda funny because at this point, the white palace/path of pain might actually be more infamous than the entirety of the Meatboy franchise 😂😂😂

[@Resstarr]

"A resetera thread turned into a dumpster fire." is probably the least surprising thing I heard in this video.

[@katie-ampersand]

unexpected for a gaming forum, i know

[@spacejunk2186]

Wonder how many users got banned for the pettiest reasons possible.

[@emperortgp2424]

@@spacejunk2186 Sometimes I feel like I might get banned just for browsing that forum... as a guest.

[@chuckwood3426]

@@spacejunk2186 You could see that just about half the posters that gave the quotes TRO showed was already banned!

[@BigVisX]

Katie & Considering it‘s resetera it‘s even less of a surprise

[@ponky-kong]

looking at ori and hollow knight, i've always kept the "two cakes!" philosophy, they're both very near and dear to my heart

[@ponky-kong]

I don't, no, sorry :(

[@maxsam]

@quân nguyễn hồng That game is called Blasphemous

[@erberor8007]

Yeah, and I mean, I go to hollow knight for totally different reasons from Will of the Wisps. Hollow knight has crisp combat, difficult and thrilling boss fights, and *dat LORE*. Meanwhile I'm off to Will of the Wisps for incredible feeling movement, fantastic beauty and unmatched *VIBES*.

[@peregrine4430]

@@erberor8007 precisely my feelings

[@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar]

one thing I love about hollow knight is that every hit you take, it feels like you really took alot of damage, even when you still have like 90% of your masks left, that screen going dark and the particles and screenshake and sound really made it feel like I just got WHACKED, really motivated me to stop getting hit and get good.

[@howtoavenge1016]

the very first hit you take in hollow knight leaves a hell of an impression, doesnt it

[@yachisan]

@@howtoavenge1016its like a jumpscare

[@Pope_]

i cant belive that dark souls clearly stole the character design from pacman 2 the new adventures

[@JoshForeman]

I worked on Ori &twotw during its last year of development. (A bit; I was mostly working on their upcoming game) So I can't speak to the specifics of how influential HK was in the formative phase. But I can speak to the design process I've been a part of in games in general over the past 26 years. I think you captured a lot of great nuanced truths about the creative process in this video, and I'm really impressed by your thorough research and presentation. Also, having worked with Thomas every day for 9 months, I think you summed him up perfectly when you said he's like an onion. ;P Anyway, one thing you touched on at the end that I think the general public doesn't understand very well is that when a team is bigger than one or two people, the influences from other games (this applies to all collaborative artforms) leak in from many places. The vast majority of systems are designed in groups, and the individuals in those groups will have their own influences and experiences. Since no one can play everything, it's pretty common for an idea to be proposed that is a direct copy of another game, and most people in the group don't even realize it. There have been times I'll propose an idea I think is brilliantly original and a co-worker will say, "Oh, you mean like X?" and I'll realize I played X and had forgot the source of the idea. So I think that digging into one or two developer's statements about inspirations is just not even close to sufficient. (Unless the team is only one or two people.) And I'm really glad you recognize that fact and said as much near the end. I'm also really impressed how accurately you articulated the core difference between these two games. Thomas is a perfectionist, and the moment-to-moment platforming and combat challenges were an obsessive focus for him. For me and the other level designers it was many many many revisions of every tiny detail until it felt right to him. (you can't have the onion without the tears) This is a very tree-heavy approach that makes it easy to lose the forest. I think the HK team was probably balanced the other way. More focus on the forest, less on the trees. Which gives the two games unique strengths and weaknesses. Which reminds me of another great insight you shared... the lore-crafting hook of HK being a massive ingredient to it's success. It's an open invitation to speculate. But Ori is a closed story. You experience it once and it's pretty clear what just happened. Anyway, really glad I stumbled across your channel. I'm subbed now and looking forward to seeing more good stuff!

[@mossbag69]

Thanks for sharing! It's nice to hear from someone with experience in the industry.

[@berrydelightdiwizin]

Thank you. I always believed that the game was inspired from HK.

[@spellsnare]

man the game you work on was really fun even if thomas did pick idea from HK i have np when they pick inspiration about another game. i did play those 2 games and they both fun in they own right you and your team and thomas did a excellent job to tell the story with Ori. now moon studio is a studio i will keep a close eye on them because what you did says about thomas is a perfectionist and i like those kinds of devs they not take they fan already owned that a long process to have the trust of fan and gamers with a studio that could easily be destroyed in a matters of days or month (example : Cyberpunk 2077, the current state of blizzard) i really hope you continue to work with moon studio and thomas he seem a fun dude to work with, moon studio now work on a new IP so i will keep a close eye on that

[@FakeStuff5]

Ty for the sa my guy

[@dailydelphox]

Kinda curious, how do you feel about the way Ori and the Will of the Wisps turned out? I think the story's ending had too much tonal whiplash which, while sad, felt less like a self sacrifice ending turned a blessing in disguise, and felt more like seeing a family member get hit by a truck and then happy music playing when their corpse immediately bloomed in flowers. But otherwise, I think it's one of the best Metroidvanias out there, with visuals that rival Hollow Knight's in terms of detail and quality, gameplay that's far more polished in terms of movement, smooth combat (though it's a shame there aren't more bosses or a boss rush mode to push the combat to its limits on), and an otherwise good story. It's a high recommendation for anyone interested in the genre, up there with Hollow Knight, just for poetically opposite yet similar reasons.

[@thenordicspirit]

"Also, Lupo doesn't have a smoking hot trophy wife." Thank you for that. I needed a good laugh today. Great video.

[@augumon05]

Great line, but as an aside, he started commenting about the mapping system instead of how you end up getting the map which is I think he lost a little on the point of the comparison of the travelling cartographers located in the area being how one gets the area's map. Outside of that, I highly agree with almost all the points made.

[@factandsuspicionpodcast2727]

Determining who originated an idea or mechanic is ultimately pointless; what matters is how developers iterate on those ideas. Fantastic job, enjoyed every minute of it.

[@serioussponge6416]

Moral of the story: Copying other artists and art forms is a part of art and the pursuit of the perfection of said art. However, copying other artists with the only motivation being to leech off of their success with minimal effort is generally an uncool thing to do and certainly does not help perfect the art form, only pollutes it.

[@etaquince5220]

Tbf most of the time, souless leeches are just that: souless product

[@Im_SSJay]

@@etaquince5220 exactly

[@nikkoa.3639]

"Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn." - T.S. Elliot. Ironically enough, other artists such as Pablo Picasso stole that line

[@unlimited8410]

@@nikkoa.3639 You can never be too sure if he stole that line himself

[@nikkoa.3639]

@@unlimited8410 In fact he did! I just shared the most succinct version but it comes from an even longer quote. I can't post it here though so you gotta do some digging. It goes way farther

[@Gortall]

When everyone is making Battleroyales and MOBAs, nobody bats an eye. But when someone takes inspirations from an great and beloved masterpiece and tries to make their own game even as good, everyone looses their minds. Since I saw how much Ori 2 took from Hollow Knight from the trailers, I've been on board with it. HK exists now, and Will of the Wisps only became better for it. I loved playing both of them, and I can only be happy that there's more content that I enjoy around.

[@sergeydoronin1579]

Actually, accusations of plagiarism or "it's too much like another MOBA" are quite ordinary in MOBA community. I remember users who would say that Mars (Dota2) is a Pantheon (LoL) ripoff or that Valve plagiarized Monkey King from LoL when creating their own Monkey King. Also, when dota 2 introduces new mechanics from time to time, some idiots say:"Geez, they stole that mechanic from League/Hots/", that was the case with talent system and new abilities that get activated when you hit enemies a number of times. When Valve introduced some goofy and cartoony characters in the last years (Hoodwink, Willow, Snapfire) people were complaining about Dota turning into LoL, even though cartoony and goofy characters have been a part of Dota character roster for almost a decade.

[@purestofsouls]

MOBA?

[@xcbzxv194]

@Gortall They do bat eyes of course, the PUBG studio even sued Epic over Fortnite, which is especially funny since Fortnite is probably the most unlike the others, but it's the biggest, so a juicy target.

[@sergeydoronin1579]

@@purestofsouls If you are wondering about the abbreviation, it's Multiplayer Online Battle Arena. Such games as Dota and League of Legends belong to this genre.

[@purestofsouls]

@@sergeydoronin1579 ooooh ok gotcha. Thanks! It’s not my preferred gaming genre so I was a bit confused.

[@punchy8463]

the ori games and hollow knight are both very near and dear to my heart and it is incredibly refreshing to see a more nuanced analysis on how these games are similar to one another without diminishing the value and enjoyment that either of the games (including the ones that came before, and will continue to come long after) bring - i was nervous when i heard you were making an ori video, but this was a very very pleasant, informative surprise, definitely worth the subscribe.

[@real23lions]

I'm almost done with HK and I've previously finished with Ori WotW. Both are amazing in their own styles of gameplay and art. But people who think they're the same, obviously didn't play one of the them. Combat style is different, emphasis on boss and platforms are different, as you said pacing is different. There are similarities but those similarities also appear in other smaller and older games. Anyway, execution matters more than ideas. All elements in both games have been done before. They just compiled it in a beautiful way. Awesome vid btw

[@hyperspace2752]

This like how people compared the Souls games to every action game release afterwards. Metroidvania is a genre. Hollow Knight pushed the genre to new heights and introduced many innovations that other developers took notice.

[@San-lh8us]

yes, and hollow knight itself used many many mechanics present on the older metroidvanias, people become obsessive with the games they like a lot, and make their judgement biased, every game can be described by a variation of another game, it's not like every single game is a copy of another one

[@privpi]

"This is the hollow knight of dark souls games"

[@evrimenustun9548]

@@San-lh8us Doesn't matter if people get obsessed with the said games or not. Games like Code Vein or The Surge wouldn't exist without FromSoft games, period. The difference between Hollow Knight and Dark Souls is that Dark Souls was the first of its kind (besides Demon's Souls obviously) while Hollow Knight was the one that repopularized its kind. Metroidvania before Hollow Knight was a thing. Soulslike before Dark Souls wasn't.

[@evrimenustun9548]

Metroidvania is too broad of a term to be classified as a genre. I like to think of it as a design philosophy, just like soulslikes, immersive sims and RPGs. There is really no clear explanation on what games belong on the mentioned "genres".

[@Jeanssj98]

hollow knight introduced many innovations? Really? Like what?

[@jamesoconnor5800]

Thinking of the idea of the "perfect" metroidvania, it could be argued that Will of the Wisps would inevitably be more like Hollow Knight because it had to make its combat better and Hollow Knight has one of the best 2D combat systems. Similarly, Hollow Knight had more rigidity and "grid-ness" in its world and platforming, and we've seen that Silksong is trying to improve on that. So, Silksong is making Hollow Knight more like Ori. Both games trying to strengthen their weaknesses inevitably leads to them meeting somewhere in the midsle

[@thesnatcher3616]

Well said. Beautifully said. Although I do think the gridlike structure of Hollow Knight allows for some extremely tight and intense sequences that can't necessarily be found anywhere else.

[@shieldgenerator7]

good point

[@Slender_Man_186]

Hollow Knight’s combat system is bland af, what are you talking about? It’s literally just basic swinging, it lacks any depth or flavor, the combat is just bland.

[@akirathewildcard9625]

@@Slender_Man_186 have you played it past the first boss and if you have what did you have when you stopped it does evolve

[@Slender_Man_186]

@@akirathewildcard9625 well what do we mean by “first boss,” because every game now has like 20 minibosses before the *actual* first boss? I got to that little town that I’m pretty sure was after a small area and a boss, but after that the game just lost me. From what I’ve seen of late game combat, and I’ve sat through the entire final boss, it’s still just swinging. The movement changes a lot, that evolves to the point where you can fly across the map, but your combat abilities seem to remain pretty stagnant.

[@MicOfWhy]

Imagine buying Wayward Compass to actually use it on map instead in boss fights to make them easier

[@successfulfailure1298]

Seriously, wayward compass is the only reason I made it through radiant markoth. Such a life saver

Hollow Knight and Ori and the Will of the Wisps are both amazing games. They're similar, of course, but that's not a problem in my eyes, and they actually feel very unique in spite of that. I totally recommend anyone to play them. The boss fights in Hollow Knight amaze me, and the story in Ori brought tears to my eye. Play them

[@Termynat0r]

This.

[@Chris-rz3wq]

Fittingly enough, Hornet's movement in Silksong is looking like it will resemble Ori's.

[@deadhelix]

If twi great games bounce ideas off each other it can only elevate them more so I hope both studios do this and are ok with it

[@kinggrimm2700]

I think it would be cool if hollow knight and ori became like metal gear and splinter cell Competitors that have mutual respect for eachother

[@shalvei_]

From the trailers I've seen, yeah, the movement is a bit more complex, but it doesn't look nearly fluid enough to resemble Ori

[@hundvd_7]

Just like how Ori copied a lot of its combat from HK, but it doesn't look nearly responsive enough to resemble The Knight

[@mauled2death]

tbf silksong was originally just an add-on to hollow knight and was being worked on immediately after its release

[@BEkov-kd8cf]

I feel Hollow Knight introduced a lot of younger people to the metroidvania genre and thats why they accuse every new metroidvania like grime or ender lillies of being clones. To them hollow knight is THE metroidvania so anything thats inspired by it even slightly when making a new metroidvania is automatically a clone. The larger fanbase is definitely a reason for how aggressively new games are accused of being clones as well.

[@hossenkhaled8379]

not only that, most of HK's young fanbase don't even know what a metroidvania is, they played HK and called it a "souls-like", but the game isn't a souls-like and thus have a lot of differences from that genre so when a game is actually made a metroidvania, they find it more similar to HK than any other souls-like game and call it a clone

[@SuperNeilAdams]

@@hossenkhaled8379 In fairness HK really was the Dark Souls of Metroidvanias when it came out, mostly because of the use of the 'return to where you died to get your points back' mechanic but also because of its unforgiving difficulty. Obviously there have since been much more deliberate attempts at integrating the Souls experience with Metroidvanias (Salt & Sanctuary & Blasphemous both come straight to mind but I know there's been a fair few more of that ilk), but it was one of the fairer instances of reviewers and gamers reflexively yelling "Dark Souls" at the time.

[@spinyfurball7578]

I’m genuinely sorry that my age group do this shit

[@acehughj4527]

@@SuperNeilAdams ...that's not true though. Majority of metroidvanias are much more unforgiving, though the point regarding the return to point of death to retrieve power/geo is fair.. checkpoints are not new. Theyve long been parts of old games and certainly metroidvanias. Hollow knight was simply the one that got most popular for this new age group.

[@SuperNeilAdams]

​@@acehughj4527 "Majority of metroidvanias are much more unforgiving" Eh? Like which? I'm going to have to ask for a long list if you really believe HK is disproportionately easy compared to other similar titles. It's a good game and I'm glad it's helped reinvigorate the genre, I don't understand this need to look down on younger generations for not being born at the same time as us and being brought up on the same games. It's very odd.

[@HealingBlight]

>"Salty Manbaby" >Reset Era The Obsidian Void calling the kettle black.

[@antenna8836]

"Racing games all have cars" Let me bring up my personal favorite arcade racing game in counterplay: H2Overdrive It used boats instead of cars and it actually felt like racing boats instead of cars with different physics and map designs and everything One of the most unique racing games I've ever played and I still miss it

[@DoctorMushroom507]

You just unlock a memory for me I didn't know I had, I fucking loved that game

[@miniwhiffy3465]

i think i played that game

[@INDIGE_STUDIO]

The chattel focus on negativity it’s the way of the sheep

[@teathesilkwing7616]

Boats are just floating cars

[@CubemasterXD]

Waverace 64

[@ashguycomedys]

Both Ori and Hollow Knight are fantastic games on their own. I don't know what's up with gamers thinking that if a similar game is good it takes away from their favourite game

[@penjamin1479]

Seeing how team cherry handled crowswarm makes me really happy.

[@SalemWolf]

Same, knowing they're helping on it is going to make me pick it up when it comes out. At this rate I'll need it to fill the void until Silksong releases. Please be soon ._.

[@lukeryall3309]

@@SalemWolf i think croswarm looks really cool and i think i might buy it when it comes out

[@catkingmiow4279]

I love how it has *gun*

[@DavidTs1154]

Making me feeling this is how things should be like. Especially comparing with Mahler, I instantly got mad when I saw the words from him.

[@zojirushi1]

What part does team cherry have in helping crowsworn?

[@SonicHaXD]

This video reminded me of YMS's video about Kimba. This was an absolutely fantastic essay XD

[@mossbag69]

Thanks! That Kimba video is great!

[@harpot678]

@beef business lol did you watch the video

[@spinningwhitefan]

So this video is a YMS Lion King vs Kimba rip off?

[@SilentDeterrent]

@beef business Thinking that a game took inspiration from another just bc it has basic and the most surface level shit present is just proving why the Hollow Knight community doesn’t understand a thing about game design. You ppl seriously looked at Ori’s light sword and thought “wow that’s like the nail” as if having the starting weapon for a player character being a melee weapon isn’t one of the most common things done in games. Heck you ppl did the same thing with the NPCs and I even saw some ppl saying that Ori 2 having a spider boos fight is like Nosk even though both those fights have zero similarities at all in both attacks and the phases. Look I love both the Ori games and HK. They are absolutely amazing games and both do their own things in the best way possible on top of playing to their own strengths.

[@ZayZayZayZay]

@@SilentDeterrent so the takeaway is don’t take online discussions too seriously because you have no clue who is behind that comment and what knowledge or experiences they have. Could be some 12 year old who doesn’t know better or a 30 old man who refuses to learn. Either way you’re only gonna get frustrated trying to reason with any online mob. Also generalizing a whole community not to understand something as complex as game development is a pretty funny statement. Not everyone who enjoys or hates a marvel movie is gonna understand all the work that goes into it.

[@XnonXte]

Can't believe I just watched a full 1 hour video comparing hollow knight and ORI that contains lesson about game development and metroidvania history in general. Great video btw! Way to end it a really good and considerate conclusion.

[@codyjacobs3314]

I personally love both games equally. Hollow Knight is mysterious, dark, and expansive, which is what really drew me in and immersed me into the game. Ori is vibrant, fluid, and just awe inspiring though. I think both games are amazing for people that love metroidvania, but Hollow Knight is harder to get into for people that aren't experienced with these types of games.

[@spymaster1]

@@jaretco6423 how is the map system a mess in hk?

[@spymaster1]

@@jaretco6423 It’s one of my favorite games of all time (only really beaten by portal and portal 2) so I am biased here but I do agree that it is certainly confusing on your first playthrough. When I first played it I was lost & didn’t progress even to the first boss without a guide opened on my phone. The saving issue is definitely annoying though lol when I first beat the second hornet fight it was so much more annoying because the closest bench was still far away and I’d get torn a new one by the primal aspids along the path to the fight and luckily hornet isn’t hard or else I’d have a much harder time. If you’ve unlocked the dreamnail, once you get 900 essence you can place down dreamgates in any location you want and teleport to them for the cost of one essence per teleportation and trust me they make everything so much easier. I unlocked dreamgates on my first playthrough before fighting traitor lord (which is needed to get half of the kingsoul to progress further to 4/5 of the endings in the game) and the area with his fight is annoying to get to and still have full health because it’s a platforming area full of spikes & all his attacks do two points of damage. So I plopped a dreamgate right outside his arena and prepared myself at the closest bench and just teleported back everytime I died. It makes life easier But I’m rambling. Honestly I’d recommend trying to figure it out again on your own, or with a guide, because it really is an amazing game once you get a hang of it Actually I need to ask, did you beat the game at all? How far did you get?

[@henryposadas295]

@@jaretco6423 it's not a mess. It was designed that way for people who like and understand the challenge of a mystery. You may prefer how Ori designed or implimented it but that doesnt make HK map a mess.

[@henryposadas295]

@@jaretco6423 no it's not. Your just dont like figuring it out which is part of the design. Otherwise they would have made it simple. You dont get it. That's fine. It's not you cup of tea. That very mess you hate is what made me and my son love the game even more. It wasnt designed for you at all.

[@henryposadas295]

@@jaretco6423 you dont understand why it was designed like that. Had it been done the way you like it, it would have destroyed the larger design aspect of the game. Which I suspect you dont care about. It was parfect for the design and functioned the way it should. What you find lacking was intended and worked according to the game's design. Trying to figure out how to navigate, connect, read the map was part of the charm. It was one big mystery. Something the video explained clearly. You confuse your preference to poor design.

[@chettubetcha1264]

I really feel like Tom Mahler totally missed the point in Hollow Knights' pacing. You're exploring a wasted kingdom, ravaged by a disease. It's not going to be a lot of high octane gameplay constantly. The kingdom and it's relics are lost and forgotten, so of course you need to search high and low for them. Imagine walking through a castle in medieval England after all the inhabitants died to the Black Death. I think It's supposed to be lonely and oppressive feeling at times, and it's an effective story telling tool.

[@loftwingheropon2743]

Much like one of the games it’s compared to dark souls. Or atleast the first game which can be pretty slow without bonfire warping for the first half of the game.

[@amitaish1055]

The funniest thing about it is that it is pretty similar to ori and the blind forest on that term, literally his game

[@sprazz8668]

It's fair enough that he didn't like it - HK's slow pace isn't for everyone, narratively relevant or not

[@davidsplooge14]

@@amitaish1055 not really

[@salsalvador3354]

@@sprazz8668 you are entirely correct, mahler didn’t really seem to think that the pacing seemed unfitting for hallow knight, rather, he seemed to dislike the pacing in a game like that in general

[@dexterbarlow-busch4127]

wait this isn't an in-depth analysis of all 57 precepts of zote through 10 different philosophical lenses each

[@SpoopyChicken]

Unsubbed smh.

[@charliecrook9555]

through a certain lens, it could be

[@807D14M0ND5]

Do not search for him for Zote is all and all is Zote

[@memoowo]

It's so interesting to see Ori's developer's opinion on HK, because it just made me realize everyone really gravitate towards different things... "But here, I feel like I'm traversing sooooo much and very rarely get new stuff" "there's probably nothing new in the next area anyway""you get a new ability every 20 to 30 minutes or so in ori".... Ori is for sure very fast paced, and some people may like that better but I really like the delayed gratification HK gives me. Like... because everything is so hard to get, it feels so much more gratifying in the end. I just realized that some people don't get that LOL

[@Wonkess_Chonkess]

Maybe they do get that but they like this more

[@leesasuki]

indeed, personally I played a lot of game before HK, so getting skills like double jump after hours of playing just feel... normal, boring, and a sense of "for the god sake, finally!" instead of getting a cool move, but again, that's just me this also thanks to the HK well design map, I barely feel like there are places that I can go but limited, and (most of the times) is gently guided to the main objective, until I get traverse ability to get to those places that I couldn't. This has a downside of not making me realize how much I want those abilities, hence also dim my excitement when getting such ability. Ori basically do the opposite, the map design is obviously telling the players that "hei, look at this cool place and reward, shame that you couldn't get this~", which in fact empower the feeling of getting such traversal ability, no matter how generic those are to me both are great game, and definitely one of its kind, just that people has different preference

[@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar]

every ability felt like I just had a major achievement, getting the goddamn monarch wings made me feel like a GOD when I FINALLY started double jumping.

[@deadbymeme2311]

@@HexagonThatReallyLikesVinegar just started playing this game 13 h in and having the monarch wings is so fucking cool. I actually feel like you get the ability’s quite ‚quickly‘ because of the jump being so high you can traverse the starting areas with ease except for a few exceptions. Getting new movement ability’s enhances your movement in ways that you can more quickly traverse the grounds you were exploring plus reaching new areas. So first you explore each and every corner and later you speed through every area you already discovered with the new ability’s. I find this very satisfying.

[@ZeroKitsune]

Well it also turns out the guy is a massive egotistical tool who loves criticizing other people's games, sometimes just for the sake of it. So while he may not always be wrong, I'd take anything he says about the way other games are designed with a big grain of salt. He is definitely the kind of person to try as hard as possible to find fault with something, deserved or not.

[@ingeniousclown]

Took me a while to get around to watching this, but even though I love the main content of your video I absolutely love the message at the end: who the hell cares if mechanics are similar if the game is amazing at the end of it all? Purely shameless rip-offs are one thing, but honestly those are really REALLY not as common as the dozens of comments attacking games for mere _inspiration_ would have people believe. Games are made and made _great_ by aping ideas from each other and molding them into something else entirely for their own vision, and to be so narrow-minded as to believe that this somehow takes ANYTHING away from what a game is is almost offensive. Not just to the game being attacked, but this medium as a whole. Oh and thanks for the shout-out! I feel slightly called out for my own comparisons 😂

[@IOSIRIS]

Oh shit mossbag still hearting comments as early as 1 day ago. What an absolute sigma-male gigachad.

[@antthequiet5723]

Exactly, who the hell cares? Just let me play the damn game, it's fun! So glad I found this channel.

[@jimbopkiller3844]

Honestly as long as people use it in moderation and admit to it I think taking inspiration from things is great

[@thesnatcher3616]

Hollow Knight is a result of Team Cherry taking inspiration from other "older" Metroidvania titles, so yes, I agree. There is a fine line between "inspiration" and blatant "copying".

[@thefebo8987]

@@thesnatcher3616 Hollow Knight is literally Dark Souls in 2D, especially the atmo and even some mechanics.

[@Username-de8tt]

Exactly, some of the biggest game series of all time have clearly taken influence from other games and that’s great. Pokémon was definitely inspired by megami tensei, final fantasy and dragon quest, ect.

[@007megaoof]

@@thefebo8987 the lore is way too much like dark souls

[@Deadnight-ei6lp]

@@007megaoof and that's a problem?

[@tsirakura1684]

Idc how much will of the whisps took, I still love it. And that sound track is a banger

[@sonikyuu7970]

13:48 AT THIS POINT I FORGOT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT HK AND ORI AT FIRST LMAOO good video

[@perezo27]

"Mahler, you have become the very thing you've sworn to outperform" "Actually, my friend, I see through the lies of the Hollow Knight fans. I don't fear the reviewers like you do. I have brought customization, depthness and more rpg aspects to my new game!" "Your new game?!" "Don't make me block you." "Mahler, my allegiance is to moon studios, to the game's quality!" "If you are not with me...then you are my enemy" That was the video's thesis, right? That's what I got, at least. This is also a joke BTW, I'd like to think everyone got that and don't think I'm actively throwing shit at Mahler by comparing him to Anakin.

The Empire did nothing wrong.

[@graig2558]

It's interesting that Ori devs believe they are perfecting the genre but I feel like they miss what makes the genre what it is. The big interconnected worlds that are non-linear is the absolute cornerstone of a metroidvania and to take that away and replace it with (admittedly) great platforming is to not prefect the genre but to take away from it. There isn't any reason you couldn't just do both and its strange they didn't do that in Ori 2. The feeling of being lost and or getting that key item/upgrade and having to stare at the world map or run the map though your brain to think about where this new thing can be used is missing quite a bit from Ori. In the first game I remember a part where you get a key and then a few linear parts later the "locked" door to open shows up. Seems fine on the surface but a good metroidvania should do these things in the reverse. You find a locked door then later on you find the key and have to think back to where to use it. Anyway great video as always.

[@thomasjohnson3539]

Interesting

[@thepurestvessel9249]

Man dropped an entire essay in a minute

[@henryboianimations4869]

How’d you comment so early?

[@frytoes]

He commented this an hour ago guys, this was probably a patreon thing

[@wowiearting3947]

but lets be honest, the animations be pretty smoth

[@le_quill8968]

I feel ori and hollow knight are different enough to be their on thing, sure there were inspiration taken from hollow knight but that’s a great metrovania to take inspiration for your mechanics.

[@Cman04092]

I love how team cherry supported the company making Crowsworn. Ive never heard of crowsword, but it was just cool to see how chill team cherry are. I mean, games have been taking inspiration from other games, books, movies, tv shows, history, ect. Hell nier automata was heavily influenced by famous philosophers and how their ideologies play out at the extremes. Unfortunately, very littlr is truly unique anymore, and as long as we get good games, and its not blatent plagiarism, i an all all about it. Im just happy to see devs pike team cherry embracing this. I am curious as to what team cherry thought about the 2nd ori game though, i dont think that was brought up in this video.

[@pythonhtmljava7811]

When the hallownest needed him most, he returned.

[@niccy_the_niccy]

Being a player of both of these games, I can say that they both have very different vibes. The areas are all different in both features and mechanics. You can find many good abilities that still very much contrast from both games. Overall, both have feelings that aren’t inflicted in each other. Just know. JUST BECAUSE TWO OR MORE GAMES ARE THE SAME GENRE DOESN’T MEAN THEY ARE RIP-OFFS!!!!

[@abdurehmanmalik2980]

I did find some narrative similarities: both games feature a mysterious plague that corrupts the characters of the game. The 4 Wisps also reminded me of the 4 Divine Beasts from BOTW. I also noticed some mechanical inspiration but not enough for the game to be called a "copy."

[@Jeho-vb7iw]

ur wrong pal!

[@ashreader4883]

I'm a huge fan of both Ori games and Hollow Knight but I really have to agree. The only thing that really matches the two vibes are specific areas. And, let's be completely honest, every single game has similarities from previous games, so saying that something like Ori copied Hollow Knight is just completely ridiculous. Every game has their own little similarities to many other games

[@ДімаКрасько-с7м]

Clearly Call of duty is rip-off of Battlefield

[@icancraftsomething]

@@abdurehmanmalik2980 Would that mean Covid is a ripoff of the spanish flu?

[@kabershshkabersh4272]

mahler is like that one character in a show always trying to turn everything into a rivalry and the person they're trying to compete with barely knows of their existence

[@mecburnablasta6811]

So basically Zote and/or Tiso

[@uziman477]

The man's oozing salt

[@punkypony5165]

Yeah basically

[@OriginalUnjustifier]

That describes Lambo's relationship to the title character from "Reborn!" absolutely perfectly.

[@omni6982]

No.

[@dezterify]

The whole concept of cloning or copying other games is a little whack anyway. There is so many games on the market that it's almost impossible to create something truly unique without being similar to others either mechanicaly or in artstyle. There is always someone who did it before in this form or another.

[@tylereline5148]

yup yup yup

[@THEchakkid]

I just wanna appreciate the fact that you literally subtitled a whole hour video just for accessibility sake. You do this with all videos, it's great. Thank you so much mossbag

[@dedo9990]

I mean, he just makes scripts and place them there, if anything, all youtubers with scripts should do this

[@beedoesthings8037]

@@dedo9990 yeah but I’m pretty sure that the subtitles have to be edited so that they play with the audio, that way they aren’t moving faster or slower than the video. That would still take a lot of time.

[@gummycats]

like bee said, writing them out isn't the issue, it's the embedding itself. it's an entire ordeal to get subtitles actually laid out in a video and most creators either leave it up to youtube's very shoddy auto captioning or turn them off entirely, so it's a treat when the care is put in for deaf/hard of hearing people.

[@AliciaTheHedgehog]

Great video and great analysis, I can tell you did a lot of research on this. xD The Gleamlight fiasco was pretty dissapointing, I was a bit interested in it because I find its art style interesting, but then when it came out everyone said it was short and not good at all, so...well, it's a shame. The line between rip-off and inspiration can be a tough one to spot for a lot of people. I remember when this Cuphead clone was announced and everyone went crazy about it, but they were all just talking about the artstyle, when the real problem in my eyes was the gameplay. You can say you wanted to use the same old-cartoon artstyle for your game, but when the jump animation is the same, the bullets that your characters shoot are the same, and it's also just a succession of bosses, uhm...it doesn't seem like you're doing ANYTHING unique. The characters were wizards, they could do whatever, but they just decided to make the gameplay the same... Meanwhile Hollow Knight "stole" a lot of ideas from different games and put them together creating something unique even if nothing that they did was particularly original. I don't think I agree with those criticisms about the pacing in Hollow Knight, really. I feel like those people may be too impatient or they just don't care about exploring. One of my friends showed what he had discovered on the map to two different friends and we both agreed separately that he was doing a speedrun because there were so many side paths he had ignored because he didn't care, he just wanted to "know where to go". When I played, I would always check every nook and cranny possible, when I got dash I went back to Crossroads to see what I could unlock now discovering Salubra and the Fungal Wastes, and the only reason I fought the Hollow Knight early was because after briefly checking on the wiki it said the first ending would be locked after progressing enough. But I certainly did have the drive to discover absolutely everything, and maybe that's something not everyone is a fan of, hence the criticism. I think you can already guess I agree with you in that I'd prefer metroidvanias with that kind of exploration component. xD You know, after everything you said about this one guy, I feel the way he has tried to deny the conection between his game and Hollow Knight has only damaged him, because it kind of feels like he's trying to cover it up, lol. I don't think I like him very much. Regardless, I don't think Ori's combat style looks that similar to Hollow Knight, maybe the badges and healing, but other than that it looks very different. And even if they took inspiration from it, it looks like they still tried to do their own thing, I guess? Saying they ripped off Hollow Knight seems a bit of a stretch. Comparing them is normal, though, as humans we're always making comparisons to stuff we already know to explain them away, it doesn't mean they're copies or even that similar. Crowsborn seems like they're doing their own thing as well, I think? At least in regards to combat, really only that one spike attack gives me flashbacks to Pure Vessel, but other than that it's just the pogos...and I don't think Hollow Knight invented them. xD I'm glad that more people are talking about this (especially people big on the fandom such as Fire and you) and I hope people calm down a little bit on these topics, as giving people these limitations in game design can hurt the game industry, especially indie games (I just can't see an AAA company giving a crap even if they did rip someone off xD). We all want more Hollow Knight-like games, after all, I think? And after Silksong is released it's gonna be a while before the series receives a new title I feel. And, uhm, as someone who may or may not get off her ass at some point to actually make a game with cute characters in a roundish art style that could work as a metroidvania-style game, I hope people will relax or if I ever do anything and I'm noticed by more than 10 people I'm scared I'm gonna get cancelled into oblivion. |D

[@bastiartgames]

Thanks for mentioning my game there! Happy to be in this video :D

[@seankeogh8134]

Fancy seeing you here Basti! 🙂

[@meowsuo]

such an excellent video,I subscribed to a likeable youtuber of a game I was obsessing over but it turns out he can make some of the most compelling video esseys on the site,the jokes all hit,the self awareness,the pacing,the respectfulness and positivity which didnt feel forced, chef's kiss

[@Voidalot]

*I don't care if it was Ripped off or not, they are both games that I love and hold deeply in my Heart.*

[@soundonly7155]

I played both and can say it's more inspiration that copy

[@Sougin_0]

Nice

[@damo2304]

It's a joke

[@e.t.1947]

Void heart can talk HOWWWW

[@themarshcat7195]

i’m glad they took from hollow knight, it made will of the wisps REALLY good

[@Shadic4101]

Moral of the story: the general audience doesn't know what they're talking about and have no idea what certain terminology means

[@MichaelReznoR]

*certain vocal individuals

[@thewanderingartists]

Protip: never have twitter.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Protip: If you must have Twitter, either heavily curate it or make your channel an advertising channel.

[@destinyhunter1926]

@@MichaelReznoR no correction was needed. The general audience wont research a topic enough to back up their opinions, its not just a "vocal minority"

[@miamesa8652]

You are the first comment I see anywhere, that ever sums up what it's like to be a game designer, the general audience constantly bashes the devs of just about any game with "You're doing that bad, this would be better that way" or "You don't know how to do your job", ESPECIALLY in competitive games. People need to understand two things : 1. Game designer is a job, not something anyone randomly picks up, there's studies that go behind it, you constantly need to learn and adapt (improvise. overcome.), And people need to realise that there's a LOT that goes on behind the scene that makes it so that something that seems great on paper, doesn't actually work once in game (Looking at you, overwatch players that think jetpack cat would be a good character) 2. There is no "I" in a company, A gaming company isn't a single entity, it's a bunch of people that can both work together, but also share their struggles. Anywhere from the legal team of the company all the way to the concept artists, and going through the budget management, there can be issues Imagine you have this cool concept for a new character, and he can do cool stuff and all, that character is great on paper yeah... Now ask the art team, can you make it, but not just make it look good, it has to be visually appealing to the audience, it also has to fit the theme of the game, the character also needs to convey who they are and to an extend, what they do... Nope, character abilities are too dark for the game What about programmers? Oh the engine can't actually handle that... Well do we have the budget to rewrite the engine, guess we need to have a meeting about that, discuss if it's worth... And then even if that goes through, does the playstyle of the character work well with the core gameplay of the game? Does the character fit in well with the rest? What about the lore of that character? And then back to the art team again because the abilities are pretty, but the readability is bad. So yeah, stop thinking "Oh but the design team did a bad job on this character because it's not fun to play/ugly/unbalanced they didn't do that because they don't know what's good" To get my point further, as to why certain games are just generally "bad", as a company you can make bad decision early which don't seem bad at this stage, but later down the line, you're stuck with them, and as a game designer, I've learned one thing, the WORST THING YOU CAN EVER DO, is decide to put something good in a game, even tho it goes against what the game is. If your core gameplay has problems, most of the time it's a good idea to keep going with the problems, fixing the core problems aren't a possibility, and if you put one thing that doesn't follow that core gameplay, then nothing in the game is designed around it, and it'll most likely be even worse. tl;dr Game designers and devs know what they're doing 90% of the time, stop thinking you could take their places, you can't.

[@meriotroid]

Since Metroid was inspired by the movie Alien, every Metroidvania is, in fact, also a ripoff of Alien. Literally everything is inspired by something else and no idea is entirely original

[@pepi7404]

Every piece of media is a rip off of that one guy pressing his hand on the wall of a cave.

[@scorporal]

Metroid was also inspired by... Mario and Zelda, and so were many many other games. Most of the gaming industry is obviously a ripoff of Mario and Zelda

[@meriotroid]

@@scorporal Mario was inspired by Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong was inspired by Popeye. Metroid Popeye ripoff???

[@JadeFoxAlpha]

Alien is a rip-off of the WW2 British pilot folklore of "gremlins," evil entities which would rip planes apart from the inside while crews were still flying them. The original pitch for Alien was even set in a WW2 bomber.

[@paddyq3235]

"There is nothing new under the sun"

[@isaachester8475]

Lol, regardless of whether or not Ori is a “copy” of Hollow Knight, the fact that Mahler said “We studied Hollow Knight, we were inspired by it,” only to turn around once the comparisons were made, saying “I don’t even like it, I wasn’t inspired by it, the combat is too simplistic”… is just kinda hilarious 😂

[@conehead2099]

Yeah this cracked me up. I love the Ori games, but the first one has some of the most basic combat you'll ever find in a metroidvania. It's also not surprising that he didn't like Hollow Knight, because it is unapologetically a real metroidvania with real exploration. The Ori games are more like platformers pretending to be metroidvanias. You will never get lost in an Ori game.

[@daltooinewestwood6380]

The “thorn” point can be explained by the localization focus that the ori dev team has. Everyone knows what thorns do in games, and it’s easier to translate a single descriptive word for multiple languages

[@miguelcom13]

i think the thorn point was a joke, the thorm shit is use in a lot of games and do the same shit in ever game

[@mrmemes7883]

I've played ori and the will of the wisps, and I was pretty hyped because it is quite similar to hollow knight. I had a good time, I dropped it after a day or two. But no, it is not a hollow knight copy, just similar, and I like it. I don't think that games should be called bad just because they're similar to another game. Especially when the effort put into it is insane. Seriously, the Ori games are absolutely beautiful. I could almost say it's better than hollow knight's amazing artwork. And that is no easy fear. It is a good game, and shouldn't be treated as a clone.

[@jeremyhenry7600]

I always find it weird when on forums of either games people ask which one is better. There isn't really a good awnser to it since they're so different. The best awnser is always when someone says "just buy both"

[@Macabresque]

If it's a good game and you liked it, why did you stop playing after a couple days?

[@mrmemes7883]

@@Macabresque I was interested in other games at the time. I get interested in 1 game for a few weeks, and then I find something else.

[@PixelZnimation]

@@Macabresque I love the game, I was on holiday when the game dropped and hell I played it everyday for like 2-3 weeks :) until there's nothing much else to do

[@TheCakeIsntReal]

the comparison sequence reminds of "guy who only played Hollow Knight : hmmm getting a strong Hollow knight vibe from this"

[@gangganggang2219]

Guy who has only seen Beverly Hills Chihuahuas watching his second movie: "This reminds me a lot of Beverly Hills Chihuahuas" A great example of small sample size analysis and comparison

[@SuperGoose42]

I played Hollow Knight AFTER the Ori games. I loved all 3 games, I never noticed any significant connection between Hollow Knight and Will of the Wisps while playing them.

[@nitej_]

Ori did take a lot of inspiration from hollow knight and it is a good thing. What I didn't like about it is that the team openly said hollow knight was a big inspiration before the game came out. After release when people compared it to hollow knight, the team took a 180 and said they didn't even like hollow knight. If they were just honest about it, it would be a different story.

[@DollyGuadalupe]

I was getting ready to say this. You beat me to it, and worded it even better than I would have. I agree 100%.

[@queenkoko8686]

Exactly. They took inspiration from HK for Ori's sequel, they mentioned that publicly so why are they denying even remotely liking it right after release? Ori and the Will of the Wisps and its predecessor are both amazing games but that's kinda a weird and dumb thing to say.

[@omgman5745]

Differences are bad differences are what keep us from Godhood.

[@kylehart8829]

For me the problem wasn't taking mechanics from HK, it was taking those mechanics with no respect for why they work so well in that game. And that limited, surface-level understanding of those mechanics and design choices mean they're used very poorly, and WotW ends up being a heavy downgrade from both HK and Blind Forest. Very disappointing game, there was no effort put in to understand why the best games in the genre do the things they do.

[@gatst7680]

@@kylehart8829 Omegalul

[@axelmartinez6242]

thank you so much for the subtitles!!!!!! i know it takes a lot of effort and especially in an hour long video but its greatly appreciated, english isnt my first language and having subtitles helps a lot

[@PerpetualNoob]

Very well-reasoned, well-said breakdown mossbag. As I played through WotW, I saw several of the similar HK elements and made that connection (but seriously, thorns and spiders were things folks said were rip offs? 😲) but it's like you said, that's what humans do: make connections, find meaning where none may exist. And since none of us know every single video game in existence at instant recall, none of us can make completely accurate connections. 🙂 And just, well done with all of the investigation and research put into this. 😃

[@elijahbruce5936]

HK= hingdom kearts

[@brya9681]

This whole thing reminds me of the Grant Morrison/Allen Moore thing. Like Moore always talks shit about Morrison while Morrison has hardly ever talked about Moore. Team Cerry is just making their game while this Ori dev is obsessed with beating them.

[@goose7618]

@@brya9681 no, no Ori devs are not "obsessed with beating them". Taking inspiration is NOT being obsessive. Now just calm down and stop looking at Hornet porn and obsessing over HK, ok? ok.

[@paulsmith410]

I was concerned about Crowsworn the first time I saw the trailer. The movement and animation of the character was what seemed far too much like Hollow Knight. Since then, I've seen a little bit more of the direction they are going with it and can say I'm excited to play it.

[@BunnyOnASnuman]

"Dark souls" "Dark souls" "Dark souls" "Dark souls" "Dark souls" "Dark souls" "Dark souls" *M A R I O*

[@pedroribeiro2207]

Damn, you said it all. Somehow, watching you talk about these games made me even more motivated to develop a game. Excellent video, I hope someday someone depicts my game so gracefully as you did these two games.

[@KaryonTheirStory]

All I know is the ending to Will of the Wisp could make a grown man cry, especially if you loved the first game

[@itsalejandroe]

Specially when you think there will most likely not be a third game in the near future, also since there really isn't that much they can improve or create new mechanics on, or atleast from what I can see, just hope their new takes on new genres are good, just hope they kinda get rid of that mentality of making the best games in said genres

[@dailydelphox]

I agree, but I don't really feel it's in a good way. I mean, a loved one out of nowhere getting hit by a bus would make you cry too, but I don't feel like that means you're having a good experience.

[@ithereos9554]

I don't think it was that good, it goes for the full "feelz" but honestly I feel like it fell short of what I could have been. I prefer not to spoil but I'll say they set up a specific character to have a much more satisfying and complete ending and they just gave them a couple lines instead lmao.

[@dailydelphox]

@@ithereos9554 Ori Will of the Wisps has an emotional ending, but not in a good way. It's sad in the same way seeing a family member get hit by a truck is sad. Your goal for the ENTIRE game is to reunite Ori and Ku, and go home happily. And then last second, with no warning, it throws out that Ori has to become a tree for the rest of his life. He essentially dies, in the span of five seconds you see Naru grow old and die, and Ku fly away. And now HAPPY CREDITS MUSIC, YAY!! It's the definition of tonal whiplash. The player has no time to prepare for Ori's "death" of sorts since it's introduced last second. And they try to salvage it by having him turning into a tree be presented as... a... happy ending? What? But, that's not how the player sees it? It's emotional, just not in a good way. I feel like people who get hit hard by the ending just assume that the fact it made them feel something means it's good, but who wanted to see a tragedy strike after beating the first game and seeing Naru and Ori happily living together?

[@Krystalmyth]

@@itsalejandroe You would have to care about the characters in Ori to cry. I have no idea how you establish a relationship with these stuffed animals standing around breathing in this beautiful world.

[@a2zistoolong448]

I've never played HK, but i loved both Ori games. Part 2 was so well written, it made me shed a tear for that ending movie. I wish I could delete my memory just so I can have that same experience again...might try HK

[@jondysayz]

You should! I'm looking into getting the ori bundle soon. I'm not sure how the world building was with Ori, but HK is a bit different than most games with story telling. I'd say it's another similarity it shares with DS in the way they hide away lore in item descriptions that you can piece together with what you discover within the game, rather than a straightforward narrative.

[@Rubycario-yt]

KZbin threw this video at me a bunch of times, so I figured I'd give it a go. I expected this to be another "Hollow Knight is the pinnacle of Metroidvanias and everyone is copying it to get ahead" because there's a lot of that going around since Hollow Knight's release. That being said, I love both of these games. I personally do prefer Ori, but that's all really down to personal preference. Not to throw Hollow Knight under the bus here, it's a phenomenal game. Playing through Will of the Wisps, I did draw some comparisons to Hollow Knight, sure, but I also drew comparisons to other games as well. That being said, while playing Hollow Knight, I drew comparisons to several other games that Hollow Knight reminded me of, and I'm sure I'll be drawing comparison between Ori 2 and Silksong. Because as you stated at one point, that's what people do. We compare. I don't think there's really ever been a game I've ever played that I haven't compared to another. I don't feel that Ori 2 is a rip off of Hollow Knight in any way, they're similar in the best ways, and different in the best ways. They're both great games, why can't everyone just like, you know, get along? Overall, this was probably one the best in depth looks on the subject of "copies" and "ripoffs" I've seen about the gaming industry. If not, THE best video I've seen on the topic. What Hollow Knight did for the Metroidvania genre is unmistakably incredible, and the fact we're seeing so many of them pop up nowadays is great. I love seeing alternative takes on this specific genre, because a lot of the gems are buried in the past. But Hollow Knight's popularity is also the biggest issue. Fans tend to blow it out of proportion, but I'm glad Team Cherry look at a game like Crowsworn and say it looks cool. Idk, you explain everything better than I could, and I appreciate the time and effort that went into this video. Thank you for bringing this issue into a more public eye.

[@alxjones]

To be honest, I *wish* everyone was copying Hollow Knight. It's been 4 years, if everyone was trying to copy it, there would probably be some really great HK clones out there.

[@Rubycario-yt]

@@alxjones I wouldn't say they need to copy it per say, but heavy inspiration wouldn't be bad. I'd love more games with bosses on par with Hollow Knight, or games with movements as fluid as Ori's. Would be nice if essentially everyone just bounced ideas off each other and asked, "What if we did that thing, but like this instead?" Rather than everyone seemingly being at each other's throats. lol I think the closest we have to a Hollow Knight "clone" atm is Crowsworn, which I've honestly been comparing to both Hollow Knight, Ori, Castlevania, and a few others here and there. So who knows? Maybe Crowsworn is the game we're looking for.

[@Koitsuba]

@@Rubycario-yt Problem is; Ori's movement isn't as crisp as in Hollow Knight and that combined with the awful "combat", Ori won't be as good as a metroidvania as Hollow Knight. Music and art in Ori is amazing, on par with HK, but it doesn't have good bosses, it has a terrible combat system where you won't even have to aim. It's just a platformer with metroidvania elements (those being combat and powers that unlock more of the game and secrets galore). Now don't get me wrong; Ori is amazing. But there's a reason why it isn't the best metroidvania, because it's not a 100 % metroidvania.

[@Rubycario-yt]

@@Koitsuba To each their own, personally I prefer Ori's movements to Hollow Knight's, but that's my own subjective opinion. As for the bosses, while I do enjoy what Ori has to offer, they can't hold a candle to Hollow Knight's, I do agree with that. I also personally enjoy Ori's combat on a base level. By that I mean just running around meleeing everything, rather than giving him a Gatling gun and going ham. (Side note, talking about Ori 2 here, Ori 1 had a terrible combat system and I don't think it even registers as a Metroidvania until the sequel on most store fronts) The game can be too easily cheesed if the player wants it to be, which I don't think is a good thing. I wouldn't say it's the best Metroidvania objectively, nor will I ever claim it is, I just personally prefer what it has to offer over Hollow Knight. The primary issue I personally have with Hollow Knight has been said all too often, the pacing. The game loses momentum early on, picks it up again for small segments, loses it again, then repeats that throughout the game. There's also an overabundance of things like charms, a lot of them are really good, but then there are those I wouldn't ever bother with, and with 40+ there's a lot fluff to sift through to find the gems. That paired with the slow pacing of the game makes me feel like I wasted time going down a path for a charm that I won't ever use. The things about text I think was also brought up in this video, Hollow Knight is like reading a good book, but when a lot of NPCs toss a new chapter at you, it grinds the game down to a halt, which is beneficial from a lore standpoint, which I love, but not so much from a gameplay perspective. On the adverse end of things, Ori moves by a little too quickly. It picks up momentum and rarely ever loses it, but because of that the game ends up being too short. If they had a few more bosses, even simple ones like the Willow Stone for filler, and maybe 2 or 3 more escape sequences, then I think the momentum wouldn't be an issue for it. Each game has things it does right, and each game has things they do not so right, but that's how things go. Idk, overall I think it really just boils down to personal opinion. It's like comparing Mario and Sonic, at the most fundamental levels, they've got the same things going on, but when you take the magnifying glass out further, they're both ultimately doing their own things. I love both games, truly I do, but for their own reasons. But I do have my own preferences, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and all that jazz, too.

[@cactusowo1835]

@@Rubycario-yt I allways wondered why can't people just apreciate games instead of comparing everything in the galaxy with a margnifying glass lol, like, yeah... in that matter, every game is just a vague copy of each other that has a main character that moves and are able to jump over platforms, can't undestand people's opinions on games when they're comparing, like yeah, talk all the way up on how similar can Ori be to HK and how is that bad or not, but they can't steal all these 72+ Hours of fun I had with these wonderful platformer games. That also remembers me of a folk I know that I tell him about Hollow Knight and Ori and how good it felt to play a open world-like platformer game and he just said "That's called metroidvania, these games are just a copy of the calssics meteoid and castlevania so that has already be seen!" I never felt that urge to spit in someone's face virtualy since then haha. But all I say is that, mentally ignore these twats that compare and criticice games you love, feel free to straightfowardly not giving any f*** xD

[@menialbee]

I have a new found respect for you mossbag. You're truly more than just another hollow knight KZbinr. In the lack of silksong news you make these fantastic documentations of other games very well instead of still desperately trying to find silksong topics to talk about.

[@greybushgames1]

“And most devastating of all a Feather” I 100% agree the Feather is absolutely devastating..

[@skittles536]

In more ways than one

[@benlindquist3302]

I was devastated when my feather went to get the milk

[@bwzie]

Now that I played both, Hollow Knight after Will of the Wisps I can honestly say they feel absolutely different. They have their own unique vibe. Ideas are nothing but a starting point.

[@el_selvi100]

I truly thought you will come back when silksong gets released but again,this is a new pillar for memetism

[@Good_Praxis]

I'm currently playing Ori and the Will of the Wisps, what is a more unique idea in relations to Lupo is that for one region in Ori where he does in fact not sell you a map but gives you a quest to explore it all and tell him about it for a reward. That's a twist I hadn't seen yet

[@HiddenGemsReviews]

@André Corrêa Ishida You get a discount on their maps and 1000 Light when you complete the quest. Hardly nothing, especially if you're saving up for certain abilities.

[@20rcRules]

I'm stuck at 96%... do you need to do the spirit trial to get 100%?

[@HiddenGemsReviews]

@@20rcRules Yes! It used to be you needed to fill out the whole map too, but now you just need to get all collectables and do the spirt trials in each area.

[@20rcRules]

@@HiddenGemsReviews Thanks! That's the only thing I need to complete the quest!

[@jerrodshack7610]

@André Corrêa Ishida Why would he give you a map for doing that? You already explored the whole thing yourself.

[@nunocota9842]

I wouldn't say its a copy, it's more inspired and we can't blame them, HK is a fantastic game that should be used as an inspiration for future games of the genre

[@theangrywig3905]

It's definitely inspired, but it's hilarious the Ori devs are denying it.

[@NotDavidz]

@@theangrywig3905 I think it's only 1 dev

[@gu3z185]

@@theangrywig3905 Stop painting the entire Ori team as assholes just because you think Mahler is. Remember that most things you feel were taken from HK are actually from the early development of Ori 1 that came way before HK's development was even started. Mahler has admitted to trying to oneup HK, he's competitive and that can only be helpful for the genre.

[@theangrywig3905]

@@gu3z185 I didn't mean to paint them all as assholes, I just didn't catch that Mahler was the only one saying these things. Now I can only imagine his entire PR team behind his office window saying "oh dear lord what is he typing now?"

[@victorgalva23]

@@theangrywig3905 no it isnt definitely inspired

[@daveloomis]

Mossbag. Mossbag.... your style... just. *Chef's kiss* Thank you for all the thoughtful analysis.

[@theblob2937]

It’s important to note that when something unique is made, entirely new ideas are brought to the table. Its uniqueness gives people ideas on how to make a better game, so later games will obviously take inspiration. A new concept might even make a permanent impact on video games, so calling a similar concept a “ripoff” is not fair unless multiple characters, areas, and concepts are blatant copies.

[@skyemoore428]

Both Hollow Knight and Ori and the Will of the Wisps are AMAZING. I can never get over how beautiful they are

[@MegaKirbySuperstar]

I didn’t like Ori at all but LOVE HOLLOW KNIGHT. I need Silksong!

[@handoroxpurooskotto2771]

@@MegaKirbySuperstar dont care, stop trying to cause arguements

[@skyemoore428]

@@MegaKirbySuperstar How can you not like Ori? Ori and the WotW is a masterpiece

[@Xcal13]

Looking forward to your future video essay talking about Hollow Knight's inspirations from Pac-Man 2 The New Adventures.

[@iopklmification]

I mean he showed a clip where there is a weird bug...so it's obvious TC ripped the fuck off that game

[@smeatar]

I haven't finished the vid yet but it's funny seeing Tom talk about "making the perfect metroidvania" because Ori honestly didn't even really feel like a metroidvania to me. Meanwhile Team Cherry apparently don't even care about the metroidvania genre but they made a game that really encompasses what makes the genre so much fun for me.

[@iluveggs8475]

I really like this long, in-depth and not purely Hollow Knight format and would like to see more in the future!

[@eko2418]

Damn I didn't know the Hollow Knight lore also was also hidden in Ori and the Will of the Wisps

[@eartht0ast755]

Hello eko

[@-.__.]

I watched this over a 12 hour shift and man how fun it is to listen to you talk. I appreciate you so much, you introduced me to so many games I’m excited to try myself and I respect your thoughts and opinions, you don’t sound biased imo. Thanks for making this video (and many others).

[@teacherfromthejungles6671]

36:36 actually, I prefer the 1st Ori to the sequel. it's just feels more unique to me, and waaay more challenging. I remember I was so nervous I had to stand up to finish some sequences in the original Ori, I shouted at my TV and rage quit sometimes but the sequel I went through without even a slight trail of stress

[@becauseyes4040]

Yea, I wasn't too psyched about the sequel either lol. In my opinion, the best part (and only great part) was the prologue lol. Ik ima get teared apart for this take, I just didn't really like Will of The Wisps that much, especially since they changed many of the controls and interfaces, which I found hard to adapt to (this is after years of playing The Bling Forest over and over and over again). I felt more frustrated with the game when I completed it, than when playing it too lol. The ending also feels very incomplete to me... dunno why, but it's just.... mehhhhhhh lol. Rant over, you may now decapitate me, as I've seen apparently everyone enjoyed the sequel a lot more than I could even think of enjoying myself Edit: I played The Blind Forest first, the eventually got to finishing Will of The Wisps, and as soon as I finished, I went straight onto Hollow Knight (as I had it on my wishlist, and was able to buy it. It was installing as I finished WoTW). I haven't finished Hollow Knight just yet, as I want to explore every part of it, and I'm enjoying it a fair bit more than WoTW, as HK is it's own game, while WoTW just seems too different from the original, and like an entirely different game (that wasn't as enjoyable in my opinion). If you enjoy WoTW, props to you! You like a game that I don't, and manage to play it over and over! That's a really great skill! Hope you enjoy the game for as long as possible! ヽ(・∀・)ノ

[@ArcadeTheatre]

Crowsworn only has a few more days in its kickstarter! It would be really cool if it could reach its final stretch goal! We don't want another missed-opportunity like Hollow Knight's missed Void DLC!

[@clayxros576]

Crowsworn looks to be a near double image of Hollow Knight with very mindful tweaks. What a game should do when taking inspiration, using the base formula then adding your own spin to make the game you wanna play. No different than installing a mod, just official. This is a good thing and I cannot wait to play Crowsworn. Been a long time where there was a faster paced action game where I can indulge in that sweet sweet EDGE

[@qitsune8326]

@@clayxros576 same, but I believe they said that we shouldn't count on it coming out faster than silksong :(

[@clayxros576]

@@qitsune8326 I mean, earlier than never is a win in my book.

[@Icebearbear]

"There's no such thing as an original idea anymore" is what I remember from my art teacher

[@mauled2death]

wtf my art teacher said that too, your art teacher is a rip off

[@Icebearbear]

@@mauled2death xD

[@delta3244]

Not totally the same, but related: one of my math teachers just gave us another teacher's notes as a reference (some calculus class, Paul's Online Math Notes) because he felt he couldn't do better (which is reasonable, because said notes are incredibly well-constructed).

[@alxjones]

My music composition teacher also pushed this point, and had a read a (quite small) book called "Steal Like an Artist" by Austin Kleon which obviously espouses the same idea.

[@beniaminbzowski8798]

Ah yes, the thin and blurry line between inspiration and copying that no one seems to be able to locate.

[@starplane1239]

Trying to find that line is like trying to find the last 1% of corruption/crimson in your Terraria world-with time and effort it can be done, but nobody who doesn't share their findings with the world can be bothered to go beyond a quick look.

[@nothingisawesome]

its whatever i say it is, obviously

[@807D14M0ND5]

@@nothingisawesome Then speak Loveletters, or forever remain silent. May your words guide us.

[@ellyelly7235]

Things I learned today: Many games I have always referred to as "puzzle platformers" are in fact metroidvanias. Which explains why I have so much trouble finding the style of "puzzle platformer" I like most. It's because while I do enjoy actual puzzle platformers, I prefer metroidvanias, and just didn't know the name. The more you know, I guess.