Overwatch Tactics in Warhammer 40K - How to Use it RIGHT?

[@aarovit4257]

It’s so funny that I usually play ranged focused armies but the moment I go “I’ll play a more melee focused army” someone always picks Salamanders and I die

[@OGXenos]

IMO Overwatch is a major reason melee feels bad this edition. Most melee-focused armies hit harder than guns but are fragile; except 10th edition gives opponents so many opportunities to deny melee and shoot during your turn, while there's very little melee units can do to avoid being shot constantly except hugging ruins the entire game and playing 4D chess while their Tau opponent just sets up massive firing lanes of death for you to stumble into.

[@fendelphi]

@@OGXenos Just to play the devil's advocate here, but command points are also more rare in 10th, so using it on an overwatch is a relative big investment for a lot of units/factions. Using transports to get into position and deploying behind it(out of sight) makes your infantry more or less immune to effective overwatch. Also, firing lanes are great and all, but if your opponent is still outscoring you(by being on the objectives), you will still end up losing.

[@whitewall2253]

​@@OGXenos my dude hasn't played against tau since seventh edition if he thinks the meta build is a gun line and not a bunch of CIB crisis suits and devilfish breachers rerolling all hits thanks to Tetra bullshit.

[@donovanattano3898]

@@OGXenos i mean some units say you cannot fire overwatch on the charge ;p for example howling banshees or i think jain zar ;p

[@viktorgabriel2554]

@@fendelphinot every melee army gets transports also when half of your opponents gets to remove troops from the table all the time its not fun the other half has massive tanks that you struggle to get thru since on average melee has lower S then shooting as a Tyranid player i am being forced to play only one way or loose this is not fun or enjoyable

[@MaxPower89716]

Ahriman and a 10 man Rubric squad is brutal. Morvan Vahl and her Paragon Retinue learned that the hard way. The entire unit was wiped.

[@LovedandTheLover]

As a salamander, I feel personally attacked

[@aaronnunavabizniz199]

I run 24 burnaboyz in my army. I feel ya.

[@ericsmith9212]

I would like to see Overwatch go back to second edition where it was an order for the unit that you placed on your turn. This meant they didn't shoot on your turn,but had to wait to shoot when a target presented itself during your opponent's turn

[@viktorgabriel2554]

yes that rule was really good as it forced you to make a choice

[@J1ffst3r]

Problem is you can end up with both sides camping down using overwatch an people get punished for actually moving forwards to cap objectives. It's very oppressive against melee armiea

[@reginlief1]

@@viktorgabriel2554makes shorter ranged weapons a bit better too, as most of the time you’re out of range, you can at least present a movement threat for your opponents turn.

[@Majere613]

@@J1ffst3r I wouldn't say so. Typically overwatch fire had a -1 to hit penalty on it and you had to pass up shooting in the Shooting Phase to 'set overwatch'. So shooting armies usually only wanted to do it if they couldn't get a target for normal shooting or if they were a short-ranged 'goalkeeper' unit. Sure, it's bad news for a melee unit that otherwise might have been able to cover-hop all the way into charge range without getting shot at all, but typically melee armies get shot at a lot in any case and scary overwatch units tend to just use the strat at the moment. Overall, it tends to reduce the amount of fire melee units take whilst still allowing units a fair chance to at least do something before they get ripped to bits.

[@radred609]

It'd be interesting if there was some additional interaction with weapon types. Like, assault always can, rapid fire can, but only within half range (and don't gain the extra shots) Heavy can only overwatch if you didn't move, precision weapons can, but they lose the precision keyword. etc. Then you keep the current 1CP "overwatch" ability to let you overwatch once per turn even if you didn't declare overwatch with the unit, (alternatively, lets you overwatch with a unit that *did* declare overwatch but without the weapon-type restrictions) that said, we might be getting a but overly complex at this point...

[@thierrydoucet3769]

Is it ever possible to see you play a game, it would be awsome

[@jjyoung5362]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5Sypn9uhJaEY9k

[@jjyoung5362]

Yes!

[@Robotech2049]

The LR Redeemer is the current king of overwatch.

[@grzmit5904]

Thousand sons in general want to speak with you

[@TheBoggeln]

Standard Leman Russ Battle Tank, double up lethal hits and rerolls to hit

[@undertale191]

@@grzmit5904How do I talk to piles of dust?

[@benjaminvanduyne3787]

​@@TheBoggeln Guards lethal doesn't work in overwatch. Only in your turn unfortunately

[@clent_the_techpriest351]

Malcardor Defender !!!

[@deceitful_angels1]

I LOVE YOUR CONSTANT AMAZING VIDEOS MAN!!!!

[@jakeosiris3971]

flash gitz with kaptin badrukk are awesome

[@JankTank]

Especially if you haven't used the Ammo Runt, yet!

[@Scapemaster00]

The most frustrating thing from my casual play experience is when playing against my friend running very range heavy armies, spending 45+ minutes on his shooting phase, and then when it's FINALLY my turn, he interrupts my flow by spending even more time shooting a tank with 4+ guns. JUST LET ME PLAY DANGIT

[@petervansan1054]

use clock

[@tannerharris7790]

^ already said but I'd put him on a shot clock if he slow. And if he didn't finish his shooting in an agreed upon time, he doesn't shoot 🤷‍♂️

[@blakedavis4209]

In a tournament game over the weekend, I used Flashgitz with Badrukk to overwatch Celestine. She died, and did not get back up.

[@Raphex5]

I can never seem to fit in into an army, but whenever I have brought it, the Malcador Infernus has always done a lot of damage to anything that wants to get anywhere near it while being pretty tough to shift.

[@PTurbo4th]

Yeah... I played 3 games vs 1 of our buddy. Always playing firestorm so far. Got table 3 times... fun stuff.

[@maxduwarf9502]

Talking about overwatch this discussion came up in my local comunity and I wanted to know your opinion auspex viewers. So assuming abilities like assurmen and necron hexmark allows you to use overwatch multiple times in the same phase, could one unit moving, trigger two overwatches? One from a normal unit spending the command point, and then inmediately triggerin asurmens abilitie on the same unit that moved for example?

[@maxduwarf9502]

Basically the question boils down to, ¿Can a single activation, trigger multiple stratagem reactions?

[@randomorange562]

I don’t believe so because stratagem effects take place immediately after using them so the order of operations in a perfect world would be Enemy moves Triggers overwatch Fires overwatch Now since it’s not immediately after the enemy unit has set up from moving it’s no longer possible to use overwatch, Basically using the first overwatch blocks using the 2nd one.

[@maxduwarf9502]

That's what I thought​@@randomorange562 but, there were to contra arguments, the first one is that RAW the overwatch stratagem says that you can use it when a unit begins or ends a move, so could the begginig trigger one overwatch, ando the ending the other? And the second was that you can stack defensive stratagems when someone shoots at you for example using armor of contempt and go to ground, If what you said was correct then this couldn't be possible

[@fendelphi]

@@maxduwarf9502 Asurmen's ability does not state that it allows the same unit(the unit Asurmen is in) to use it twice. It states that your unit can use the stratagem on "this" unit for 0 CP, even if it was already used on a different unit in this phase. So, technically, it could be used in the movement phase, when the target starts to make their move(activate overwatch on a unit other than the Dire Avengers), it gets shot, and then when it finishes its movement, the Asurmen activate their ability, which "should" allow it to use it as well. It would(most likely) not be possible to do during the charge phase. You would be able to activate it once during the start of the charge, but by the end of it, the victim has moved within engagement range and you will no longer be eligible to shoot it(unless it is a monster or vehicle) because most charges ends in engagement range and then it is no longer an eligible to be shot at. Of course, nothing stops the player from targeting one unit(start or end of movement, start of charge) with Unit A(say, some Dark Reapers), and then target a different unit(start or end of movement, start of charge) with a new overwatch from Unit B(with the Asurmen).

[@maxduwarf9502]

Wel thx!! ​@@fendelphi the second case with the twi units firing overwatch being assurmens one of those is pretty close to what my comunity was discussing so it's really use full. But if that's the case for me It seems a bit too strong to be able yo overwatch the same unit twice for 1 CP but if that's what workshop says you can do there's not much you can do against It jajaja

[@ezramoranadams1042]

Can’t believe the necrons doomstalker wasn’t mentioned !!! Arguably the best over watch, in the canoptek court with full re rolls of hits and over watching on a 5+ instead of 6+ !!!

[@martinfrancis4606]

Yep.... Titanic units can't use it because of tge amount of shots coming from them.....has GW noticed the amount of shots coming from a space marine repulsor?!😂

[@BurnByMoonlight]

My Acheron shoots 2d6 auto hit and 3 sustained 1 twin linked per activation. Clearly that’s too much overwatch. Never mind stuff like 6d6+6 auto hit twin linked flamers from aggressors, or the d6+6 torrent of the Tyrannofex.

[@DJCallidus]

​@@BurnByMoonlightI used to attach a Judiciar to a flame Aggressor squad last edition. They'd get their overwatch then Fight First because of the Judicar ability. He can't go with them anymore.

[@drewbg333]

The main issues was the wraith knight.

[@drewbg333]

The main issues was the wraith knight and giving auto 6s.

[@Nazdreg1]

Yep, the wraithknight is the reason for most Titanic/towering nerfs.

[@jcklsldr]

I read the Hexmark as this: You get OW 1/turn, and then you can use ONE Hexmark's ability 1/turn. So you couldn't OW using 2 Hexmark's abilities, just a standard OW and then 1 of them if you had more than 1. And I get this interpretation because of other armies that have similar usage with that "Once per turn, one unit from your army with this ability..." basically do the same, only allow that ability to be used 1/turn. tl;dr, use the strat, then use the ability to get another instance of the strat, both 1/turn for a max of 2/turn.

[@Obakedake]

Thank you as a new player this was extremely helpful !

[@Majere613]

The first slide here brings up something very irritating- the recent change to the rules for reducing Stratagem costs isn't reflected on the datasheets for models with that ability. For example, the Chaos Lord rule 'Lord of Chaos' still just says 'can be targeted with a Stratagem for 0CP' rather than saying '...with a BATTLE TACTIC Stratagem...'. It's a very fiddly rule to hunt down when you're trying to find it and there's no reason it couldn't simply be on the datasheet.

[@rain6353]

my elves love flame overwatch!

[@helpmedesk126]

I think the Tau striketeam are under rated +4 to hit on overwatch With fireblade 20 attacks at 30 range 30 at 20 range strength 5 For 130 points, might go down a bit on Tau codex release

[@fendelphi]

With Fire Blade, it is actually more shots. If you Remained Stationary during your turn, you get the shots of the deployable turret as well(and with a Fireblade, it has 3 attacks). And then we have the Gun Drones(each have a base of 2 attacks, and gets an extra from the Fire Blade) and the Fire Blade itself. If we have Pulse Rifles and 3 gun drones(1 on the Strike Team leader, 2 on the Fire Blade), we get 25 shots at 30" range(Strike team+Fireblade+turret), 34 shots at 20" range(gun drone range) and 45 shots at 15" range(rapid fire range). Also, it only cost 120 pts(strike team is 80, Fire Blade is 40). The 4+ to hit is only when on an objective(otherwise it is 5+), but it actually makes your Gun Drones and Turret more accurate than they usually are, and they dont care about stealth or other accuracy penalties(it will always hit on an unmodified roll of 4+). It is awesome against fodder units, and can even punch holes in units like Marines(especially if under the effect of Kauyon for Sustained Hits 1), but the lack of AP means that it will be less effective against such targets(still not bad being able to remove 3 Marines on an overwatch).

[@TheMixEmperor]

Cute that you think players these days care about underlining stuff like overwatch for new players. I played my first four games last month, told them I was new and still got gotcha'd in every single one by the mouth breathers at my local store. I never went back. It was typically overwatch or movement shenanigans.

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

Sadly, the game stores are home to the truly worst of the community. Garage hammer with personal friends was always the way to play this game. Painting is also therapeutic. And the lore is unmatched.

[@whitewall2253]

​@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 the setting is nice enough, the story not so much.

[@cruelmole]

​@@beardfistthegoldenone7273*Personal experience and bias detected* Please avoid making sweeping statements about sections of the community. There are good gaming stores and bad gaming stores. Tarring everyone with the same brush is just as toxic as those who prey on new players.

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

@@cruelmole I will make sweeping statements with or without your approval. Mind your own business reddit mod.

[@cruelmole]

@@beardfistthegoldenone7273 lol. And you call other people toxic.

[@marcobaldi9697]

I'm confused about the interaction between overwatch and DS ruling. A deep striking unit is set up so it should count as an eligible target for overwatch. Is this still the case?

[@benneall-johnston4344]

yes, a unit arriving from deep strike or leaving a transport counts as being "set up", therefore they can trigger overwatch so long as they are within 24" and line of sight

[@stevenburton7725]

Baal Predators are my favorite overwatch unit.

[@cyberjonesy]

Baal predator just denied my a whole flank from my tyranid army to get to. It was extremely brutal, I lost the game turn 2 :/

[@davidrobinson7260]

It’s so annoying when you think you can get an easy few models off the board but then overwatch kicks in, like bruh

[@davidrobinson7260]

Makes you wanna quit especially when the kill some of your models.

[@Kingofdragons117]

It works both ways though.

[@Syst3m04]

@@Kingofdragons117only if you have shooty army

[@alias-yv2ro]

? But like, you can overwatch your opponent too? I think the added layer of interaction is pretty cool! What army do you play?

[@shadowslayer7892]

Homie falling for the obvious bait lmaoooo

[@Jaybirderino]

I have a hellhound in my list for overwatch occasions! Another potential use case - if the enemy is trying to throw a light unit at you to movement block you

[@Arcothefox]

I believe that Big Guns Never Tire is not prevented by the Overwatch restrictions as those restriction specify unit abilities (Nightspinner suppression, Ballistus re-rolls vs undamage units etc) as BGNT is not a unit ability, but rather a core rule.

[@drewbg333]

The rule only applies in the shooting phase and over watch isn't in the shooting phase.

[@Arcothefox]

@@drewbg333 Just re-read the out of phase rules commentary. I believed it stated abilities, but it states rules.

[@drewbg333]

@@Arcothefox abilitys do work but not if they state in the shooting phase.

[@drewbg333]

@@Arcothefox example would be kaptain badruck and the death jester.

[@Arcothefox]

@@drewbg333 Yes, because those are not out of phase but rather each time the model shoots.

[@mikew735]

Building an IG list right now and wanted to use a stack of mortars, was excited to do some overwatch with them until i watched this and learned you need line of sight even if the unit is something with indirect, kinda bummed now. I know mortars arent that great, i just think stuff like that is cool, plus the hits on 4+ if near a command sqaud/platoon.

[@fendelphi]

I would say that Mortars can still be great, just not for overwatch. They are a cheap way to screen out your deployment zone and can be used to set up the Fields of Fire stratagem for other units to exploit. They can also help in dealing with opposing support elements that tries to hide. With the current detachment, they also get Lethal constantly, and if an officer is close enough, it can give them the boost to accuracy. Use Scout Sentinels to remove the -1 to hit penalty for indirect fire. Let us say that you target a 10-model spacemarine squad. You get 3d6+6 attacks(9 to 24 attacks) due to the Blast Keyword. Let us say that the target is spotted by a Scout Sentinel(reroll 1s to hit and you ignore the indirect fire accuracy penalty) and an officer has given them the BS buff and used the Fields of Fire stratagem on them(could be Ursula Creed). You roll an average of 16 attacks total(10 from rolls, +6 from blast), hitting on a 3+(4+ with Order and +1 due to heavy), rerolling 1s. 10 hits, +1 extra hit from the reroll(so 11 total). Of those, 3 are Lethals. You roll the other 8 and need 3+ to wound. That is 6 wounds on average, so now you have a total of 9 wounds. The opposing player rolls saves(3+ for marines) and fail 3, they lose a model, another loses a wound and the unit is now marked by Fields of Fire(+1 to AP for all your other units when shooting at that target). Against horde units(lower saves, bigger units), they are much more effective. 3d6+12(15-30 attacks) with an average of 18 wounds total(and after saves, probably around 10-14 damage, which is enough to trigger battleshock). As for overwatch, you can still use them as such, if you have a range advantage and the terrain gives you good firing lines. But I would probably rather use a disposable 3 Lascannons(for 60 pts) to threaten any transports or elite infantry that tries to move up the board. If your opponent destroys it, it is just 60 pts worth and it means something else is not getting focused at the moment.

[@samuelalbrycht6724]

Makes sense too. Mortars are for entrenched foes not fast movers.

[@Phil.Barratt-Wills]

This was super helpful, cheers matey

[@stephgracia8902]

Overwatch is not worth it, unless used by torent units. A shame they did write it like in boarding actions, where you can "hold steady" to improve the overwatch hit roll to unmodified 5+...

[@fendelphi]

It can still be worth it if you have a special rule to improve the chance(like a 5+ or 4+) or if you have sustained hits on your weapons. Also depends on the situation/target you are shooting at. A stratagem should not be "worth it" all the time anyway.

[@Aldaris1234567]

@@fendelphi I enjoy 10 Dire Avengers with Asurmen on a objective. Double overwatch 39 shots with lethal hits hitting on 4s.

[@fendelphi]

@@Aldaris1234567 You cant double overwatch with the Dire Avengers+Asurmen. Asurmen can only use the 0-cost overwatch if a different unit has already overwatched. Still very powerful though.

[@Aldaris1234567]

@@fendelphi You can double overwatch. Movement and Charge are different phases. Position to bait a charge, shoot during Movement. Shoot again during Charge.

[@fendelphi]

@@Aldaris1234567 Yes, you can double overwatch. Just not with the same unit of Dire Avengers+Asurmen combo. Because Asurmen's own rule states that the overwatch can only be activated as a second Overwatch, if a different unit has already used that stratagem. If you use Asurmen to Overwatch first, you are under the "once per turn" restriction of Overwatch.

[@01BSBH]

Can a vindicator overwatch a unit in engagement range before they fall back behind a wall?

[@OGXenos]

IMO 10th edition Overwatch is a bit too omni-oppressive and is a major contributing factor as to why melee armies have been generally struggling throughout the edition. The only melee focused armies that have seen significant success have been either super durable, like Custodes, who can shrug of all but the worst stuff with their amazing saves, or high model count armies that simply have the bodies to throw into the meat grinder for cheap. Dedicated glass cannon armies with really good melee have been struggling the whole edition. Drukhari and Blood Angels have been fighting tooth and nail just to stay above 45%; World Eaters were finally good until they got obliterated by nerfs (Even then it was very reliant on the Master of Executions just one-shotting any character he looked at) and Chaos Daemons haven't been doing too hot until recently either, and are only really being held up by the fact EVERY unit in their army is a potential Deep Striking action monkey for secondaries and can abuse Nurglings like crazy.

[@jacket2848]

Drukhari are winning tournaments all over the gaff now, Custodes are now doing well again, orks have been good the whole time, world eaters had some good wins. The only two melee armies who didn't do well yet are nids, blood angels and space wolves basically

[@jericover1995]

So, Dark Pact is working on overwatch or not? Is it out of phase rule?

[@WillPeterson]

Is using an Aeldari fate dice still an "unmodified" hit roll of 6?

[@Bear_Andersen]

I am 99% certain the answer to that question is "yes".

[@HllywoodSoldier]

I run a LR redeemer and Baal predator with flamers. Park the predator on my home objective and the LR in the mid

[@NecroGoblin-yl2fx]

overwatch can hit hard. in my last game playing my Necrons i overwatched with my unit of 3 Lokhust heavy destroyers with Exterminators, 12 shots each with sustained hits 1 :D rolled good, think it did 25 damage.

[@Necromacer67]

I think overwatch in the movement phase should be 2cp, and left as 1cp for the charge phase.

[@-ruttley3457]

Gladius task force, 6x eradicators, apothecary biologis with fire discipline, sustained lethal hits on 6s with re rolls, an overwatch murderer

[@carminesblade1625]

One of my favourite overwatch moments was breachers with a fire blade into howling banshees on an objective. So many shots and wiping a squad before it can melee is satisfying.

[@rantymcrant-pants9536]

Banshee Mask: "Each time you select an enemy unit as a target of a charge made by the bearer’s unit, that enemy unit cannot fire Overwatch or Set to Defend against that charge."

[@fendelphi]

@@rantymcrant-pants9536 What edition is that from?

[@rantymcrant-pants9536]

@@fendelphi All of them, except 10th apparently...

[@carminesblade1625]

@@rantymcrant-pants9536 either way my buddy didn't see this ability 😅

[@ianmohr4183]

6 Deathshroud Termis lead by a Lord of Virulence is 7d6 torrent anti-infantry 4+ with full wound rerolls. AP0 is an issue but if you play the reduced save sickness and have a CP for +1 AP its suddenly a real problem.

[@soerenfeddersen3560]

Good idea, the 1AP strat is locked to the DG players turn though.

[@t3hSpAdEs]

9:49 20 catachans with 4 flamers is really good for overwatch

[@Pillsfordrills]

attach 2 psychic Inquisitors as well for 4d6 extra Devastating Wounds flamers :)

[@fendelphi]

@@Pillsfordrills How would you do that? At best you can add 1.

[@Pillsfordrills]

@@fendelphi Many Guard infantry units like the Catachans can have two leaders attached.

[@fendelphi]

@@Pillsfordrills I thought it required one of them to be a command squad.

[@Pillsfordrills]

@@fendelphi as I interpret it and how every competition I know about interpret it and how every guard player I know interpret it, it means you can only have one of the two leaders attached be a Command Squad. so no doubling up on command squads.

[@viktorgabriel2554]

the issue is the different strength levels of flamers giving for instance anty infantry 2+ on flamers is busted when you add in a ap-2 on it also Owerwatch shoots should not be able to activate stuff like sustained hits and so on this is what makes TAU overwatch stupidly cost efficient for instance. the indirect fire change was the final nail in the Hive Guards coffin as it was designed to be used whit a out of line of sight overwatch hitting on 4+ and now its a dead unit

[@radred609]

Agreed, it really feels like hive guard need some kind of damage reduction ability (a la dreadnaughts) to make up for the loss of effectiveness. but then, 90% of balance updates are points only... we we're stuck crossing our fingers that they will either be made cheap enough to be "efficient" until the next tyranid codex :rolling_eyes:

[@DuppyBoii187]

I get torrent is supposed to be anti melee but it feels so opressive not being able to move as a melee without taking a second round of shooting from the flamers that just killed half your unit. It feels very far in power gap between getting to hit 1/6th your shots or 100% of your shots for shooting too.

[@knuckl6972]

My brother's stupid baal predator has given me hives with the fact that anywhere within 12 of it is the danger zone where i cannot tread

[@friendlyneighbourhoodsunwheel]

Question here I'd like to know if I Overwatch with a weapon that has say sustained hits on 6s or 5s will they trigger or is it the hits that are 6s that get to hit.

[@d.t.m8393]

Only 6's. If you're looking for the rule in print you can find it in the 40k Rules Commentary under the "Critical Hits" paragraph(check the last sentence).

[@russman738]

Only the 6's

[@likeyacutg4720]

😮 flamethrowers = baller

[@rifleman303_9]

As a bug player gets really annoying to get punished all the time for trying to get in melee but fun when my trenifex or neurotyrant get to do it and delete a space marine squad My friend plays thousand sons and has two flames in every unit so you get overwatched every turn

[@ethanwesthoff7444]

4:08 you forgot the s in USE.

[@mizter5597]

How does overwatch work with units that say "critical hits are scored on a 5+"

[@OniGanon]

Overwatch is 'on unmodified 6' not 'on Critical Hit' so it would not matter.

[@Astrospill]

My local store has a TON of Guard players. It gets old getting shot by Leman Russ's and Rogal Dorns decked out with flamers every other turn. Not like they have a shortage of CP with Lord Solar.

[@TheTaburin]

How do "fire overwatch" and "laser-marked targets" interakt? For example, say Crisis Battlesuits first use laser-marked targets and then use Fire Overwatch on a second target. And can I use both on the same target?

[@misinformedsquirrel]

they don't interact. Guiding a unit can only be done in the shooting phase, and only lasts until the end of the phase. So any time you could use fire overwatch, you won't be able to be guided

[@TheTaburin]

@@misinformedsquirrel I mean the stratagem. It can be used in the opponent's Charge phase, right after an enemy unit has declared a Charge.

[@misinformedsquirrel]

Oh right the combat patrol strat. My bad. My reading of that would be that you can use each stratagem on a different friendly unit just fine, but the "your unit cannot shoot more than once this turn" would prevent you from using it alongside overwatch on the same unit. I don't play much combat patrol though

[@ThroatSore]

Did well woth a couple of Hellhounds. Especially the anti infantry one.

[@Daedricsoulslayer]

Does rules like Anti Air "X" apply to overwatch?

[@NoManTV]

As a vehicule or monster, can I overwatch a unit who just finish its charge move at engagement range with me?

[@OGXenos]

I believe that RAW, yes you can. Overwatch says it ignores modifiers, which means the -1 to hit in engagement from Big Guns Never Tire doesn't matter.

[@baylorlopez4495]

@@OGXenosnah he said it here. RAW you can’t as BGNT is a rule that applies in YOUR shooting phase and overwatch doesn’t take place in your shooting phase. it was part of the out of phase rules. but i think RAI is you should be able to. but as written, you cannot

[@OGXenos]

@@baylorlopez4495 Except Fire Overwatch says you can shoot "As if it was your shooting phase", which directly implies all rules that apply to shooting phase apply here, except for the specific exception that it MUST be an unmodified 6 to hit.

[@MathieuDUTILH-cn8jg]

Rules commentary explicitly states that out of phase rules (like overwatch) does not trigger any other rules that normaly applies in "counted as phase"

[@fendelphi]

​@@MathieuDUTILH-cn8jg Then how would you ever be able to use overwatch after a charge move? Because that is mentioned in the Overwatch Stratagem, and the only time you would be able to shoot while within engagement range, is Pistols and Big Guns Never Tire, both of which are talk about "your shooting phase". So either Overwatch is wrong when it says "at the start or end of a charge move", or core rules like Pistols and BGNT still work(just not unit abilities, like "get extra AP", "reroll 1s" etc.).

[@GRACKKO]

need to mention weapons that crit like conversion beamer, wil hit 4+ if you overwatch a unit more than 12"

[@Trinine9]

Banshees used to shut down overwatch but GW in their wisdom removed that ability for some unknown reason

[@what4hats]

With regard to flamers. Does Auto hit qualify as a modifier? because the rules say: "an unmodified hit roll of 6 is required to score a hit, irrespective of the attacking weapon's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

[@RavenAdventwings]

There's a list of what counts as Modifiers at the end of the Rules Commentary, available online in the Warhammer Community download section. tl;dr - it's not a Modifier. It's a Weapon Ability. And because you don't make hit rolls for Torrent weapons, there's nothing to modify.

[@what4hats]

@RavenAdventwings would have solved the flamer problem they had in ninth, though. If you want to rule's lawyer it; auto hit is not a roll of 6. Though it is treated as such for overwatch.

[@jacket2848]

​@@what4hatstorrent weapons automatically hit. That is all there is to it. Stop trying to be weird about it, pretty obvious how it works.

[@RavenAdventwings]

@@what4hats It's not treated as anything. Automatically hits means automatically hits. Automatic success is automatic success. There is literally zero rules lawyering when GeeDubs literally said it verbatim. There's no rules lawyering out of it. I don't remember there was any problem with flamers in 9th, because they work in exactly the same way since 8th edition. Nothing's really changed, except maybe spelling it out that automatic success is exactly what it says on the tin.

[@YatzeeWillWearAGreenHat]

There are 2 kinds of weapons that basicly get a free shooting phase out of Overwatch: - automaticly hitting flamethrowers - fucking janky Ork guns, who already hit on a 6+

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

I slapped my captain into a 10 man infernus squad. It’s really funny toasting anything that contests the midfield.

[@Bear_Andersen]

Love it. Even more so in Firestorm Assault so the Captain can crank out a free Immolation Protocols now and again.

[@freybrand1617]

Love my tau in overwatch with their sustained hits 1 and a reroll hit of 1 from shadowsun. My breachers just obliterate things in OW

[@fendelphi]

Sustained Hits from turn 3 onwards(unless the Fireblade has the "Exemplar of the Kauyon", then turn 2). And yeah, it is not bad. Against fragile infantry(T3) that ends up within 10", it is very dangerous(roughly 14 wounds before saves from a full squad of Breachers+Fireblade and the benefits of Shadow Sun+Kauyon).

[@Stillhazey9074]

Culexus is anti-psyker +2, Does that mean he hits on 2’s against psykers when using overwatch or does he hit on 6?

[@Bear_Andersen]

anti-whatever has nothing to do with "to hit". It means he wounds the whatever (in this case units with the Psyker keyword) on a 2+ He still has to hit first, which will be on a 6 in Overwatch. If he DOES hit, and what he hits has the Psyker keyword, then you will wound (in fact they will count as Critical Wounds) on 2+ Hope that helps :)

[@jiyuhong5853]

whats the best overwatch unit for wolves

[@Syst3m04]

Lets be honest, overwatch in 10th is busted and needs to go back to 9th, just too punishing for melee armies in a meta that is already heavy shooting

[@socksintheshower538]

Neurotyrant. I love using it to torch Marines that are trying to get at it, then just pulling out 2d6 Dam2 attacks

[@SmurphofChaos]

yeah but that is such a feel bad

[@socksintheshower538]

My marine friend is very aware of this, and I still get an Overwatch almost every turn so I’ve only really felt bad doing it the first time.

[@Saf_Ibn_Sayyad_Bacon]

Eww kneesocks lictior

[@Freshtildeath]

Does Oath work with it because its a built in ability to the army and its not modofying the die but you are rerolling it

[@jacket2848]

It does

[@ConcreteHeroics]

Acid Spray Tyrannofex my beloved

[@samuelalbrycht6724]

For a brief moment triple Hammerfall Bunkers were op

[@virgilromero3252]

I’ve played so many games and have only used overwatch maybe 3 times and they were all very situational. I play with a lot of experienced players often. For 1cp torrent weapons are the best value for CP, and TBH, there are better uses for 1cp that overwatch IMO. Now I do have a gripe with the meta chasers not telling new players how overwatch work which is very gotcha.

[@swheen]

Carebear force in full effect. bith metachaders and carebears can go collect cardboard cards, and leave us manly men pushing plastic dolls in peace.

[@chrisdrazan7918]

So question when it comes the ending charges within engagement range can you over watch with a vehicle, or any weapon? As then big guns never tire doesn’t apply outside of the shooting phase.

[@fendelphi]

Big Guns Never Tire should also work in the opponents shooting phase, as in, they can shoot at your vehicle that is engaged with their infantry, but they get a -1 to hit(unless pistols). It would be weird if only part of the "big guns never tire" rule gets removed during your opponent's turn. Is a vehicle normally eligible to shoot while in engagement range? Yes, unless it only has blast weapons. It takes a -1 to hit, unless pistols(does not matter, as Overwatch have a different ruling in terms of hit rolls). BGNT is a core rule in the rule book. Not a special rule for an individual unit datasheet, so I would say it can still overwatch at the end of a charge(otherwise, there would be no reason to mention it, as you normally cant shoot things that are in engagement range, unless it is a vehicle).

[@jacket2848]

​@@fendelphi again, read the rule man. You seem to have a recurring issue on this front 😂 "Monster and vehicle units are eligible to shoot in the CONTROLLING PLAYERS SHOOTING PHASE" You cannot overwatch in your own shooting phase.

[@fendelphi]

@@jacket2848 But when you overwatch, you get to shoot if the unit would normally be eligible to do so in your own shooting phase. So, if it was your shooting phase, would the tank be able to shoot? Yes, or No?

[@samtimo3002]

I honestly think this is a good move going forward. I used to remember tau getting basically as man overwatches as they liked which just ended up recking the board on turn 2. Or at least thats how my old group used to play it...

[@Kingofdragons117]

Tau fire warriors got some overwatch ability though right?

[@samtimo3002]

@@Kingofdragons117 im not sure really, i honestly hated seeing people play against and also playing against tau. It just didnt seem fun

[@samtimo3002]

@@Kingofdragons117 like dont get me wrong theyre a cool faction but their rules need a mix up

[@jasonsmith5874]

I will be the first to admit i spam overwatch in game.there are times i use it tactically but by using it often i force my opponent to think twice about where he puts his units and where he decides to deepstrike

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

I like overwatch just for the psychological effect. It starts making your opponent second guess their movement, which is more useful than the off chance you do meaningful damage. Just my opinion.

[@fendelphi]

You dont have to deal meaningful damage all the time for it to be effective, but at least the threat of you rolling above average and do reasonable damage needs to be real. Most tanks dont care about being overwatched by an Astra Militarum Infantry Plattoon, unless it also has a few Las Cannon fire support teams attached. The infantry weapons might chip you for some damage, but if one of the Las Cannons gets lucky, it could end up hurting a lot.

[@Gangalligalax]

Always feel dirty when my Avatar overwatches a 200+ pts vehicle or monster that had no other cause of action than moving within its 12" range. Especially when said model doesn't have an invul

[@fendelphi]

Why? The Avatar of Khaine has 1 ranged attack and you need a 6 to hit. Sure, if you manage to hit on that 6, it can end up hurting a lot(due to sustained hits), but that is 1 CP spent on a 16% chance that something is going to happen. A better question would be, how often would a high cost vehicle want to move with 12" of one of the strongest and most durable melee monsters in the game? The threat does not come from overwatch, but the beating you would get in melee in the following turn.

[@Gangalligalax]

@@fendelphi Because I invariably just plug in a farseer flipped fate dice to guarantee both that I hit and that the sustained hit proc. In 80% of my matches, my avatar outright kills whatever I overwatch with it, as long as it's a single model. Also, I force my opponent to either have to move those models within range of the avatar's shooting, or be forced to die on the following round. On average, my avatar kills 2-3 models this way, per game.

[@fendelphi]

@@Gangalligalax I am not sure this is possible anymore after the "out of phase" rules commentary. But assuming it still works, I guess it is fair if you are using what is essentially 400+ pts worth of models, 1 fate die(the only one you get to spend that phase) and 1 CP to kill a target. Especially if they choose move into death range rather than just sitting still.

[@Gangalligalax]

@@fendelphi The deal with the out-phase-rules commentary is the wording "When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase." Fate dice can be triggered in any phase; both your own and those of your opponent. At least that's how I understand it. Plus, I feel like it would've come up on the Eldar subreddit, cos the Avatar's overwatch is currently a pretty common classic for Eldar players, since it's basically the most value we can get out of a fate dice, ever. But I can never rule out that I missed it, of course. I hope I didn't cos I overwatched Mortarion to death today

[@fendelphi]

@@Gangalligalax As I said, I am not sure. I do hope you get to keep it, because it is a pretty good way of spending the much fewer fate dice Aeldari have available now, and it is a pretty big investment and setup requirement.

[@danialhamilton7666]

Will you be covering the game expansion that gets released on the 27th

[@RevanR]

So countering Torrent overwatch with indirect weapons?

[@TheMakeSoft]

Or successfully charging from behind obstacle where is no line of sight

[@fendelphi]

Or just shoot them to bits, as most Torrent weapons have short range and needs to either move close to you, or for you to move close to them. Or just have enough fodder to soak up the overwatch and still get some units into melee. If they ignore the 10 model Hormagaunt that tries to charge them, they will get locked up in melee and then they cant overwatch anymore. If they choose to shoot it, you will have lost 65 pts worth of models, but your other units are more or less safe from overwatch this turn(unless a special rule permits it to be acticated twice) and you probably have other units ready to charge in.

[@cody1570]

I play cults and i field hellhounds just to use this strat to the fullest

[@MitchNotKeithorRob]

Had this a tournament recently and no one can give a definitive outcome. Help please. Unit A, charges Unit B through a ruin wall. Therefore neither unit can see each other at the start of the charge move, can Unit B (being charged) Overwatch Unit A (the charger) at the end of the charge move - when both units can see each other? Unsure how Engagement Range, only firing Overwatch at the start or end of a move and not being able to fire in Engagement Range unless it is pistols or Big Guns Never Tire works with this. Thanks for any help.

[@drewbg333]

Unit A cannot be overwatched by unit B. Big guns never tire and pistols don't work during the movement and charge phase. You can never be overwatched at the end of a charge because you are within engagement range. This is how you avoid overwatch.

[@MitchNotKeithorRob]

@@drewbg333 Thanks buddy, this helps a lot. I didn't want to biased replies, but this is how I read the rules, unfortunately not how the TO did. Frustrating.

[@fendelphi]

@@drewbg333 Doesnt the Overwatch state that you can use it at the start or end of a normal, advance, fall back or charge move? Of course, unless you are a vehicle or monster(BGNT), you would need to use pistols(as you can use them while engaged), but it seems like it should be legal.

[@bilbostomper]

​@@fendelphiMonsters and vehicles can be overwatched at the end of a charge by a unit they did not charge.

[@fendelphi]

@@bilbostomper I am talking about the Monster or Vehicle doing the overwatch. Because they can shoot even when in engagement range of targets, and you can overwatch at the end of a charge according to the text. But yes, what you say is possible as well.

[@oldmangames9292]

I've given up on overwatch with non-torrent weapons. I just can't roll 6s when needed so just seems a waste of CP. Yet I constantly see opponents go for it and hit me with both shots of their lancer main gun.. The confirmation bias is strong with this one 😂

[@raymiecall]

I overwatched a full strength Invictor Warsuit with my Land Raider recently - killed it without needing to use all of my weapons. 😂

[@YatzeeWillWearAGreenHat]

How to use Overwatch for Orks: Step 1: Include Flashgitz in yout list Step 3: Lotsa Dakka

[@Kohl293]

*cries in Knight Valiant*

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

Flamers should need to roll at least a 4+ Auto hits just because flame go woosh isn't a great mechanic.

[@fendelphi]

Torrent weapons cant generate sustained hits or lethal hits. They also all have fairly short range and their damage output is heavily randomized due to how you generate number of shots. They are effective against fodder that wants to get into melee with you, and for being somewhat reliable against targets in cover or with stealth, but that is about it. They are niche weapons that only have a few roles, and you can counter them in several ways.

[@jacejordan1923]

No Overwatch on “set up” via Rapid Ingress.

[@davidjones4772]

yeah but they can just shoot you normally though.

[@greggonzalez661]

Kaitlin Badrukk and Da Flash Gitz can overwatch like nothing else!!!

[@baval5]

Firing deck not working is so annoying.

[@nielsjensen4185]

Overwatch is a horribly designed rule as there are no soft counters against it, only hard counters and they're extremely situational and really difficult to pull off due to said situationalness. If I was given free rein to redesign Overwatch I would remove all the hard counters and give it a soft counter of, "If the unit makes a Charge move and is within its modified Movement value then it's impossible to use Overwatch against them." This would reward clever and aggressive play as it would give a benefit to running a unit like that. It would counter the benefit of tough armies to just weather Overwatch where fragile units that are unable to make up the difference in numbers, such as Aeldari or Drukhari, would just get mulched if they charged. It being the modified Movement value means that the opponent would have a chance to counter the counter by using abilities on the obvious threat that reduced their Movement. Thus you could remove things like Nightmare Shroud and other things that will inevitably appear as a hard counter to something that's extremely difficult to play around.

[@stk7778]

Sentinel Storm?

[@thatpurpletiger1238]

15 man burna boy squad is the best overwatch

[@reginlief1]

My last game I got off a magna-rail Overwatch and killed an armiger with most of its health left. Ironically I hate Overwatch as it just never feels worth the CP.

[@willshields4480]

NGL I miss old (7e) overwatch.

[@leovaeg]

AS long as you start hidden, and end hidden, you can move openly in the "middle" right? like run between cover? since Overwatch is only Start or End of movement.... But you could also then try and force-trigger it with a bait unit, moving out into the open, absorbing OW, then moving back into cover, since you can split movement during the phase/activation I think? Say, move 3 inches out of cover, take an OW hit, then 3 more into cover, and then your other units are free from OW that turn if the enemy bites?

[@hiashi1943]

My friend hit my gladiator tank for 8 wounds on an overwatch with a dreadnought 😭

[@WeOnlyEatSoup]

I love how overwatch works in 10th, reminds me of XCOM

[@niallharrison8180]

Except you can’t shoot and overwatch in xcom 😂

[@Kroeger264]

Its strange how torrent weapons can automatically hit on overwatch. Cause in the new FAQ of GW it was stated "While resolving attacks using the Fire Overwatch Stratagem, Critical Hits are only ever scored on unmodified Hit rolls of 6." But in automatically hit is sayed "■ If a Hit roll is automatically successful, move straight to the Wound roll. Such a Hit roll is not a Critical Hit, and does not trigger any effects that are triggered by a Critical Hit". So if Overwatch only triggers on critical hits and torrent weapons cannot critical hit, how can it score overwatch. Im really confused here with GWs wording. Maybe in the next FAQ.

[@somereptilesandanimals2403]

What faq says it requires a critical hit? I'm trying to find where it says that, cuz on the 40k army building app it says that an unmodified hit roll of 6 is required to hit, and so since torrents automatically hits it get around that, but if an faq says a critical hit is required then I'm not sure

[@CatharsisChaser]

Because torrent weapons explicitly don’t require a hit roll in the first place and can never score critical hits that ruling is for instances where you can crit on better than a natural 6 (aka automatically score a hit/trigger an effect)

[@Kroeger264]

@@somereptilesandanimals2403 What i reffered to was in the latest FAQ under Critical Hit.

[@Kroeger264]

​@@CatharsisChaser But they dont say it that way. They say "While resolving attacks using the Fire Overwatch Stratagem, Critical Hits are only ever scored on unmodified Hit rolls of 6." Wich implies that you can only do it on a critical it. I know exactly what you mean but they dont put it in context. And with that in mind, the other role says "Such a Hit roll is not a Critical Hit, *AND* does not trigger any effects that are triggered by a Critical Hit" Its a critical hit periotd and it also doesnt trigger effects. Wording, its for me all about the wording. Its contradictorily worded or more so, the wording is not exact enough. I know that you dont roll cause its handled as been rolled succesfull but it cant because the succesfull auto roll cant be a crit. It would be like playing Baldursgate and you dont even roll cause its automatically passed. But the spell you use asks directly for a 20 but in the desciption of the automatically succes roll stands that the "dice" it "uses" to auto pass doesnt have a 20 on it. You see the contradiction.

[@colinmcdonald5666]

​@Kroeger264 This wording is to clarify if you have a unit that crits on 5-6, 5s don't crit on overwatch, only 6s. The actual strategem text just states: "an unmodified Hit roll of 6 is required to score a hit". So if you want to hit, you need a 6. If you crit on 5-6, only 6s count as crits (and hits ofc).

[@thehopefulgamer1075]

Me: charges 11 wounds remaining haruspex into redemptor Dreadnought: fires overwatch, rolls 6 for # of shots. Rolls 4 6s to hit and wounds with all 4, murders haruspex. Me: 😬😫😅

[@robinfilmtdasnotalent3768]

I hate Overwatch. - sincerely, a genestealer cults player.

[@davidpatrick3011]

Anyone else use the ole "do you want to fire overwatch" bait/mind trick? I love watching the internal debate play across my opponents face "wait, does he want me to waste my overwatch? Is he about to move something else? Or is he just concerned im about to kill his unit???"

[@Saf_Ibn_Sayyad_Bacon]

I got called the n word asking that 😔

[@justinsnelsnel5801]

welcome to the shooting meta aka the shitty meta

[@adriengaugin298]

Just use 30 kommandos orks t1 on waghh 😉 ( no overwatch on kommandos)

[@oliverp3545]

The only reliable counter is to be a sweat about it and just move your units faster than your opponent can think to counter, however you're a knob if you're sweating this hard in anything other than a cash prize tournament.

[@alexisauld7781]

Nah, typically I'll give an opponent leeway if their brain catches up and they go "hey can I overwatch that unit?" Because yeah, that behaviour *is* knobbish xD

[@oliverp3545]

@alexisauld7781 It's why I play saying that you're allowed to do it at any point in the movement phase to a unit that has moved, because personally I like to do the phase pretty quickly to avoid it becoming a time sink, but I do narrate what I'm doing and confirm with my opponent if they don't want to overwatch before moving on.