Ruby Franke & Jodi Hildebrandt #2 - (Therapist Reacts)

[@soobi609able]

My mom was VERY abusive and neglectful of me and my sisters. CPS came a handful of times and I think something people don’t talk about often enough is how good abusive parents are at manipulating CPS and coming off as perfectly nice honest people. My mom was SO GOOD at pretending to be a nice person- and thus no one ever believe my sisters and I.

[@AnastasiaRoseDamrau]

*hug* I'm sorry CPS couldn't or wouldn't help you. My own abusive father was (and is) so charming on the surface, and it meant not even my mother knew how bad it was for years.

[@phat-kid]

i just remembered, after having forgotten, that my abusive aunt who raised me actually got paid to be a foster parent for special needs kids for a while, while she was abusing me.

[@AnastasiaRoseDamrau]

@@phat-kid that is horrifying.

[@Sunnyday069]

This is sooo true. Same with munchausen

[@wayasaunooke3424]

For what it's worth, I believe you ❤

[@alisonf6478]

As a former CPS worker, I appreciate your viewpoints. I took a position as a caseworker in NYC post 9/11 because I wanted to help people somehow after such a devastating event. We had crazy caseloads, limited ability to actually help the children/families, and most definitely supervisors and judges overriding our decisions. Very difficult work. ❤

[@alisonf6478]

Also, in interviews, we have to ask the kids questions to discern what kind of abuse might have occurred. If there is no obvious sign of physical abuse, the children interviewed deny any issues and the home appears safe (we had to check the fridge, etc for adequate food) it would be very difficult to make the decision to remove a child. Partly because if not needed, removal is very disruptive. Partly because sometimes relatives make up stories about people. (So we can’t remove them based upon the aunt’s report. We have to verify.)

[@denniswrobleski4439]

I think the legal power that comes with wealth plays a big role in a situation like this. Wealthy people can afford a much stronger legal defence that can get in the way of the work CPS can do. They can influence a Judges decision in a way a poor family cannot with a court appointed attorney. It definitely can be difficult to take any action with an allegation alone. Especially when the children themselves are brainwashed to believe that they deserve the abuse they recieve.

[@alexpiper1115]

yeah over the years i keep hearing about CPS and the only thing i can take from all the news stories involving CPS is that these people are either totally swamped, not paid enough or both to do those jobs.

[@RogerLewis-ey2tt]

Tyvm for sharing. It seems like no one ever blames the bureaucrats, who cause the most harm and yet have no real-world contact with kids) and social workers!!) whose lives they ruin.

[@RogerLewis-ey2tt]

​​@@alisonf6478 Thank you for your service. There is a toxic CPS culture of disengaged but cost-conscious and politically-attuned bureaucrats, coupled with an army of people trying to save children but too timid to break rules or even make a public fuss.

[@kamalastromwall9275]

Jodie Hildebrant's niece Jessi did an amazing interview on Mormon Stories podcast. She was held captive and abused by her aunt.

[@Blueqwerty564]

I agree, and the interview with Hildebrandts previous client in therapy was also very eye opening

[@JulieHerrick]

After hearing both the Jessi and Adam interviews on Mormon Stories Podcast, I'm 100% that Jodi is the mastermind behind all of this. Ruby is still accountable for her behavior and I'm not letting her off the hook, but everything got worse after Jodi became Chad's therapist, and even worse when Ruby began working with Jodi.

[@cookie_dough_hangover]

Both interviews are mind-blowing. Jodi is horrible.

[@jeremysmith9694]

Mormon Stories is a garbage podcast

[@Drs195]

As a former LDS member and someone who lives and is from the town where this happened, I have heard members of her congregation were greatly concerned for her children and some did call CPS. There are many things that are wrong with Mormon culture that I speak about regularly in my sphere and on my platform (not here), and as an exmormon, I also think there won’t be much grace for Ruby Franke from her neighbors, church, and peers. I am concerned the church will advocate for the father to have custody though and I hope a just and thorough investigation is conducted before the children would be placed in his care. As an adult in the area, I can tell you there are community members who want to see justice served and many of us in our small town will be watching carefully to see how elected officials handle the proceedings.

[@jennyduncan1863]

Great insight. Thank you

[@Jill-ih9dq]

I am a social work student in Utah County (where the Franke family lived) and have several classmates interning at DCFS. When we were all looking for our internships, DCFS was VERY FEW people’s first choice. It can be demanding, traumatizing, often times thankless work. Every judgment call that a DCFS worker makes has the potential to not only be heavily scrutinized by the legal system (as it should), but will massively affect a child’s future. That is a lot of pressure, and I don’t envy anyone who is repeatedly put in that situation. The length of time people work at DCFS is so short because the burnout rate is so high.

[@annem7806]

are there psychologists on staff to help with those decisions?

[@Beach_flower]

Thank you for that bit of context. As a former social worker I understand. Notice I said former 😰 it’s so incredibly difficult

[@Beach_flower]

@@annem7806from my experience working as a social worker (not in Utah) there are psychiatrists that are part of the treatment team, but they are part of many kids treatment teams. They see the CPS social worker and maybe some others involved with the case once a week at most, and get a short update. Then they make their recommendations and move on to the next case that needs their attention. It’s difficult.

[@nikkibee139]

@@annem7806 Often, no. And even when psychologists are involved, the act of taking a child away from their family, their home, their community is often traumatizing, even when the family are the ones responsible for abusing them. It truly is a difficult, demanding, and unrewarding job where you feel like you're damned either way.

[@AliciaMcIntire]

Kevin Franke is just as bad as Ruby. He happily participated in poor treatment in the videos, and he appeared in Connexions videos saying the same horrible things as Ruby and Jodi. Also, his behavior online and with his students was bad enough that he (a tenure track faculty) was fired by BYU 6 months ago. I teach at BYU, and this is a huge deal. This kind of thing would mean a months long investigation and legal work to suspend his contract. They would have had to have serious grounds to fire him, so no, I don't believe that he is a safe person for the kids considering his past actions.

[@tracevicente]

The kids are not with him either, so it seems they know he is not innocent.

[@KisDraga]

A former student of his wrote on reddit that he was arrogant and very proud of their youtube channel and how much money they were making.

[@erikavaleries]

I had an enabler dad too

[@Mama_Bear524]

Ya I don’t buy for one hot second that he’s innocent here. He definitely needs to be investigated

[@orianjuarez3074]

I heard a report that Kevin Franke, professor @ BYU. Was verbally & physically abusive to a student. He also made "racist" comments to students & bullied students in same sex relationships &/or gay. Idk If this is 100% substantiated?? Prayers for the children.👦👧💖

[@larissabrglum3856]

Ruby is so cartoonishly evil. If you wrote a fictional character like her, it would be considered unrealistic writing.

[@helenfisler-parker9005]

Well, don't think this is just Ruby. Bonnie has done similar things 3 years ago. And also, know the LDS CHURH AND BUSHOP WERE WELL AWARE OF THIS ALL. THEY PAY JODIs salary and she reports everything to them.

[@ashleybeazley]

⁠@@helenfisler-parker9005exactly!! Neglect and lazy parenting by Bonnie too. She didn’t potty train her youngest til he was like 4 or 5 and she said it was because she didn’t have time to deal with it or something. Just awful. Ellie and Julie are sweet though.

[@erikavaleries]

This is my mom with the evil glare and rubbing her hands together while scheming and taunting.

[@LittleOrla]

​@@ashleybeazleyis Bonnie a sister?

[@ashleybeazley]

@@LittleOrla yeah there’s 4 sisters and a brother in their family.

[@RogerLewis-ey2tt]

As soon as Ruby whipped Kevin out of the house, he deleted all the kids' phone numbers and refused to answer their calls. As soon as the oldest daughter spoke up about the abuse, her bank account was emptied out. Ruby's some flavor of sadist, and Kevin is her gimp.

[@mandi4794]

Where did you hear this?

[@cindyliao2250]

Even if he deleted the phone numbers, the kids are old enough to remember his cell phone number!!

[@conniegarvie]

I heard that Jodi caused him to delete the numbers. Ruby does NOT want her kids to speak to their father.

[@Laplantelatte]

@@cindyliao2250 He apparently blocked Shari.

[@DarcySteele]

Sources?

[@CrustyDrawers]

Thank you for speaking about the challenges of working in CPS. I worked for the Children’s Administration here in Seattle for a few years. I survived childhood sexual abuse & out of my team of 8, four others had also been abused as a kid. So I was passionate about my work until the system broke me. Best practice was 15 cases. Policy stated 25. I left when I was at 35 and was about to get two more kiddos. That means each of my kids only received a little over an hour of my time per week, but they never even got that because I was court ordered to complete 20 hours of parent/child visits & had a sibling group that was moved every night. My work day began at 5am and frequently ended at 1am. There were many times I purchased food or clothing for my kiddos out of my pocket & I was paid crap. One of my co-workers completed sui*ide in one of our state cars. I had a father bring a hunting knife to a visit & he later threatened to shoot me. We really try our best to protect children but we are also very human, too.

[@mk21718]

I think that we shouldn't underestimate the power of the LDS community. Many, if not most, public safety workers are LDS in some areas of UT. Their bias towards others in their cult is significant.

[@inapickle806]

This!

[@chandrad951]

Agreed. You cannot fully understand this story unless you know the dynamics of the Mormon church.

[@emilymschoener9193]

Great point.

[@frumtheground]

Not to mention, Jodi was very highly recommended by church officials. She basically had a steady flow of clients/victims for years because of this.

[@christinamacfarlane6871]

Jodie Hildebrant weapoized her position as a therapist against her clients. This deserves its own video.

[@MamaKat53]

My mom used to sneer delightfully as she crushed me with words. I imagined myself ugly and defective my whole childhood. My dad just sat and watched her, sometimes joining in. The fact that this dad is asking for the kids is monsterous! I am 52. My parents died years ago. Healing is lifelong. These poor kids have a lifetime of healing ahead. I wish I could hug them!

[@autumnmatthew3185]

Sadistic mothers give a whole new meaning to childhood trauma

[@tredjesongen]

Exactly. Then comes the question of why? Do some hate their kids due to they dont want them but are raised in a ..okay..rant: disgusting religious cult where nobody gets to become themselves. Imagine if both of this parents are closet gays. ....🤐 Have to live up to expectations of many kids,pretending to be "normal" in that brainwashed environment. Add suppressed feelings and resentment an mass Oh boy better stop here... Okay; the weight that mormon cult style society lays on sexuality is doomed to create monsters/victims/crazyness beyond the wildest imagination. Just saying.

[@Molly-iw1rc]

My great aunt was a social worker and she often ended up providing housing for children who didn't have anywhere to go. She would take in kids until they found places for them to go, so I can see how CPS or people in those fields end up doing a lot more than is in the job description because there aren't enough resources given to them to fully help.

[@alywi]

It was validating to hear a therapist also call people "jerk faces".

[@GabriellaT21]

I've watched a lot of commentary on this case and it's very surprising that there's very little reporting on how Kevin Franke (husband and father) plays into this. I know that he left the home...did he know what was going on and just abandon his children? Was he complacent to the abuse? Did he actively partake in the abuse? I'm not excusing Ruby Franke's behavior and she should absolutely answer for her crimes, but I think it's a BIG piece of the puzzle that's missing.

[@annem7806]

Go look at Natalie the lawyer chick. Fantastic presentation, Kevin, at the very least, abandoned his duty as a parent under Utah law.

[@mevv]

He was still in the home when a lot of this abuse was going n, we can see that from the videos. At the very least he was complacent in the starving punishments. Maybe he wasn’t aware of the tying up/detainment of the younger kids, but so what? He left them there and blocked their cell numbers on Ruby’s orders. What kind of caring, loving father does that?

[@missyblu4983]

Rubi kicked him out. Jodi moved in

[@Hannah-qq7uf]

I cant get over the fact that she cancelled christmas for the two youngest and they just sat there while the other kids opend presents. Just imagine...She said because the two youngest are too selfish, but they were only around 6 and 10 🥲 I believe she has no empathy

[@parkviewmo]

She also have no understanding of c hildren's developmental levels!

[@joannahampton5979]

Those two are her victims again in this abuse

[@Naejakire3]

I think they were even younger.. It was years ago and now the youngest are 10 and 12. I think it was 4 and 6

[@carlascissors-cohen1442]

😢😢😢

[@carlascissors-cohen1442]

And how was her husband OK with this?! 😢

[@BrightStarz72]

I'm so sorry you experienced racism recently. It's really upsetting and angering to hear. Would be interested to hear more about it, and how you felt, responded. As to how the Franke abuse was allowed to go on for so long, I think people also tend to stereotype "good looking" individuals. They see a skinny, pretty white blonde woman and can't imagine that she could commit such monstrous acts. It actually might kinda relate to your review of The Little Mermaid, and how the evil character is depicted as overweight, ugly, etc. (i.e. Wizard of Oz, is another obvious example). Interesting.

[@cobracommander8133]

This story is too upsetting for me. My mom was just like her, only social media didn't exist at the time so she would proud-fully "brag" about how she abused my sister and I to her friends or anyone who would listen to her. Franke's smiles and laughter are so much like hers. They're proud of themselves, it's disgusting. My Mom also surrounded herself with a bunch of religious whackos that had their own ideas of family counseling and raising kids, which just causes more problems. Also, the teachers in the schools I went too knew there was abuse happening at home, and they never did anything. So CPS not intervening in the Franke situation is not surprising to me.

[@AnastasiaRoseDamrau]

*hug* I wish there had been someone there to help you.

[@EvonRomano-ge2og]

Me too. My mom found like minded lunatics and they’d sit around laughing and they even joined some whacked out cult/church. Ruby’s laughter puts a knot in my stomach

[@erikavaleries]

My mom too. Hugs 😢

[@Bronte866]

Yes.

[@Beach_flower]

I love the nuanced view you being to these cases. As a former social worker- everything you say is spot on. It’s SO complicated. Taking them out isn’t always best, even when it seems like it is. It’s so hard and from my experience CPS workers do their absolute best. Our whole society needs to change to value families mental health and I don’t know how that can happen with one or two decisions. It takes so much work, change and generations. 😢 (edit to add- I AM glad these kids were taken!)

[@denniswrobleski4439]

Wealth can definitely play a big part in what the police and CPS can't do about a situation like this. A wealthy family have legal power a poor family can't afford. Such as hiring a personal attorney that can devote a lot of time to thier case. Were a court appointed lawyer will have very little time to devote to thier case.

[@raspberryitalia3464]

A podcast Ruby spoke on was rediscovered where she shared that she used the KZbin channel as a tool NOT to verbally abuse her family because she didn't want to look so bad. She says that instead of screaming at her children, she'd "make a funny video out of it" so she thinks these abusive things she's filming are funny and are stopping her from being even worse...

[@lizzielonglegs1980]

Wow that’s even more crazy to hear that !

[@breie100]

Honesty is what we need. Very nice listen to. Love from Norway

[@shamrox12]

The problem is most likely that the CPS workers were LDS, not likely to go against a powerful wealthy couple.

[@emel3925]

I really appreciate that you emphasize that CPS is mostly filled with very hardworking and under appreciated people, and that for meaningful change we need to put more funding and resources towards this.

[@rachelleeden8824]

I have called CPS on my mom for child abuse (physical and verbal) against my sister. The called my mom and recommended she get therapy, and that's it. And my mom was confronted before my sister which of course could have put my sister in a potentially dangerous situation.

[@AnastasiaRoseDamrau]

*hug* I'm sorry CPS didn't help your sister. I know the feeling of watching a younger sibling be targeted with abuse and not being able to defend them.

[@erikavaleries]

I am so sorry, this is so neglectful and devastating.

[@Bronte866]

If I had called any authority of any kind or even told an outside friend or adult I can’t even say here what would’ve been done to me.

[@ColleenMcCoin]

Love hearing you explain CPS and societal issues. You are very neutral, factual, and easy to understand. Much appreciated

[@OnsceneDC]

I was raised in a relatively privileged environment, and my parents were respected members of the community. Growing up I was often hit, and once had a large bruise in the shape of a large hand in my leg. CPS was called twice on my parents and I recall my parents blaming me for being manipulative, and explaining it away to CPS, and they left them alone. This was in the 1980s, but I've seen privilege at work, even when there was obvious physical evidence of abuse.

[@Bronte866]

Me too.

[@knitsbysami]

I do really love how you give an insight on the nuance of social workers. It’s easy to blame CPS and maybe they are to blame for sure, but I used to be a social worker myself and I know how hectic and underfunded it all is but mainly: how passionate the workers are about what they do

[@kales120]

Also seems like she’s laughing to make the audience think what she is doing isn’t serious and a big deal that she’s keeping food from them. It’s insane

[@josephkambe1917]

I hope you're correct, but she laughs and smiles way too often when talking about punishing her other kids for me to believe that her laughter is this benign. When you laugh when your talk about causing pain and suffering in others, it's way more sinister than that.

[@kales120]

@@josephkambe1917 totally agree she’s just evil. Who knows why she really does it but she knows what she is doing and it’s messed

[@kimmi2662]

I can't imagine not feeding my children for any reason.

[@jackson12802]

Thank you for acknowledging the limitations of DFS/CPS

[@djfally_beatz]

Doctor H your transparency is so refreshing and your viewpoint at a young therapist is so important for understanding all factors in this effed up story!

[@marcoquinonez352]

Great video! You hit the nail on the head. I Was born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah. I was raised Catholic in a Mormon town. Essentially, you always grew up looking from the outside in. If you were not a part of their religion, then you represented all that was bad with the outside world. Throughout my years there, you would always see a lot of people looking the other way, letting things slide. By doing so, they felt they were protecting the image of the Mormon church.

[@CatherineWillis]

Generally, I cannot stand KZbin Therapists/Psychologists. I really appreciate your acknowledgment of the systemic socio-economical-political issues we have in the United States. You seem very authentic and I don't feel icky, as I have with other similar content creators, watching your content! I want to commend you on your honesty while discussing the facts of how these systemic issues really affect everyone and everything. *Edited for typos!

[@celletoronto]

I was thinking the same thing! He reminds me of my psych professors in university - making us thinking about alternative perspectives and think critically about all factors that could contribute to an event.

[@saraadams9518]

I wish they would make access to CPS's phone number more accessible . Much like 911 system. Dial 444 if you are child in danger. We can proactively support change and make reporting easier for everyone. As a child of a narcissist , when I was a child, I wish I would've known how to access help bc I would have.

[@lioramatson2720]

This is such a fantastic idea. I was abused as a child and totally would have utilized something like this too.

[@EmoBearRights]

In the UK we have Childline for that reason - how effective it is idk.

[@katerzp]

I’m currently visiting Seattle and the one thing I caught myself watching on KZbin, was you, Dr. Honda! I made myself chuckle for sure. Good content as always.

[@Theinfamouskiki411]

I can tell you i live in a affluent neighborhood. My kids tooth was loose and we got string and pulled it. My son went to school and told his friends and bragged. His 3rd grade teacher heard this and called CPS on me. They called and laughed it off but i was so upset over that! I swear it was racial thing. There are other moms that were horrified this teacher called cps! I told the principal and she talked with the teacher and various other stuff this teacher did like placing several black students in special ed and the next year she was gone

[@chantelfordham602]

Wow! While CPS is wasting time looking into you.. They could have been helping children in real trouble.. Such a waste 😔 glad for everyone that teacher left the school.. One good thing at least 🌻🌻🌻

[@ckwanita907]

Wow, that is horrifying! Sorry that happened to you

[@catherineannelockman3805]

Wow...what a horrid teacher...

[@galejohnson8086]

We tied string around loose baby teeth, tied to a door knob and slammed the door. Thought nothing of it.

[@galejohnson8086]

I am so sorry. There is a separate thing society does besides being racist, it is ignoring, laughing at and abusing those that are physically ugly. It is like it can’t be spoken of, but so painful

[@katharinekearns7495]

I remember asking my dad questions about his family towards the end of his life and he would talk about his dad and siblings. Then one time he talked about how much he hated when his aunt, his mother’s sister watched them, she would make them go to bed without dinner if they did something she didn’t like or saw as naughty. He had held that into his 80’s. His dad was a doctor, a medical examiner so he was called away frequently at different times of the day. He also talked about the abuse from the nuns for being left handed. When you said in the first video that people remember those things, it’s true.

[@VenoMooseBear]

Thank you for shedding light on the amount of red tape us public employees deal with. We may agree with you, but that doesn’t mean we have the power to do anything about it. If you don’t like something that we are doing, chances are you need to go talk to your state representative or anyone who has power to change the laws we work under. Vote for different people. Yes, there are those public employees that either blatantly don’t follow the laws they are required to follow, or they just are burnt out and don’t care anymore.

[@IWantToRideMyBike]

My husband got a call from a social worker who said that there was a case open with his ex and daughter for a year and no one had told him anything about it until then. They just called to tell him the case was being closed because no progress was made. Basically they closed it because nothing was getting better. Like, what?!

[@Jo-razz]

This subject is incredibly sad. As adults we know that there's bad people out there. When it comes to children, I just never understand. No one should hurt anyone, but to look at innocent children & harm them, it is unfathomable. I am in my forties and my mother is in her sixtys. We both had a discussion, on how approximately a couple of decades ago, my parents had a couple of friends who worked for CPS, who were under pay, over worked & under staffed. This has been going on way too long and our children are paying for it. We need to put the pressure on the government to change this. We can no longer sit by while children are paying the ultimate price, because the government doesn't want to fund something that is supposed to protect our children. I hope this is a wake-up call. I don't know what to do but I am definitely going to look into it. I know things don't change overnight but we start the ball rolling. Because obviously nothing has been done for years.

[@sietesamurais]

I think part of the fascination is that she does come across as a sadist and that’s rare for mothers (even though they definitely exist)

[@adelelouise]

I LOVE that Dr Kirk is keeping up with all the internet crime/drama/tea!! I love hearing his professional opinion as opposed to tea/reaction channels etc

[@judytamojsak909]

I think you should have your own regular Netflix documentary to spread your precious knowledge ;) Absolutely love listening to you!

[@terryexpose]

7:00 I heard cps came twice to their house and on one occasion when they came Ruby was in the house and kids were baking something and everything looked fine I heard that the cps worker was apologising Ruby for the visit. I think maybe Ruby knew or the timing was not right. I don't know but it's crazy to me that nothing was out of the ordinary. But at the same time I don't blame cps. I understand its very difficult to spot what could be going on

[@ItsPouring]

I interpret her smiles similar to the way Dr. Honda does. When I was a child my mother used to go all out with the "discipline" when I would do something wrong. Yelling while hitting with a slipper, her hand, a belt... Since we lived in apartments the neighbors would hear it. Perhaps living in the suburbs saved _THEM._ Outwardly we looked like a really nice family taking professional family photos, going to church and everything. She and my dad would tell people that nothing as bad as what they imagined from hearing my (or my older brother's) screams was happening and that I just made it sound like it was really bad. One of my father's favorite quotes behind the commandment telling children to _"Honor thy mother and thy father,"_ he quoted in 2 different ways: A) Spare not the rod, spoil not the child, and B) Spare the rod, spoil the child. Anyway, as a child I once drew a picture of my mother after one of her whipping/yelling sessions. The monster I drew had spiky hair and bloodshot eyes. I think I was trying to communicate something, but my stick drawing had zero impact. Be they male or female they justify their behavior to those within earshot. I even remember her looking at me after a beating yelling, *_"You're not a victim"_* on more than one occasion. Apparently, abuse is something different to everyone. She never felt what she was doing was abusive because she 1) Never sent us to bed without feeding us 2) Did not hit us in the face and 3) Nothing on our bodies was ever broken. The comment Dr. Honda made about asking the children (about how they felt about the treatment) really stood out to me. Nevertheless, it's a foreign concept to think of myself as having been abused, and it shocked me into silence when my brother once stated during a phone conversation that I was always getting beat, adding, "It was abusive." I didn't know how to respond. So yes, that mother is proud. I remember seeing the pride on my mother's face after she did something, and sometimes the more outrageous the behavior the prouder of themselves they are. Perhaps it is an emotional release of their internal aggression. After we were no longer living together I thought she would have changed and grown/evolved until she told me about losing her mind on her black labrador with a rolled up newspaper, because she tried to enter the door to get into the house first almost making her fall down. When I responded, "Oh, you're still on that," she responded with the sound of conviction, "Yes I am," and justified it on the grounds that she has to show them that she is the alpha. On another occasion, while I was visiting there was an insect or something in her room. When she grabbed the flyswatter and entered the room where her little terrier was, looking upset and confused about what he may have done, he instantly fled the room clearly expecting her to use it on him and refused to go near her. This is uncharacteristic because he usually stays near her and is the first to cuddle up on her bed near her at bedtime. Instead, he remained in the room where I was even though she tried to apologize, speak to him sweetly and coax him back into her room. He clearly felt frightened of her. She stated that she had never used the flyswatter on him saying that someone else must have done that. However, I remembered the flyswatter too and am CERTAIN that is an outright lie to cover for the apparent damage she was responsible for causing to his psyche. Although I was not there to see it, I know what happened because she prided herself on giving you something that you would not forget. Interestingly enough, like the Mormon mom, you would never think or know that she was this way, as she is a frequently bubbly, intelligent, elegant-looking, well-put-together teacher (or "educator" as she describes herself). So, yeah, I suppose that without intervention of some sort they *_do not_* change or evolve, they just translate that behavior elsewhere.

[@JenniLynn1218]

Just found your channel. I’m hooked. Thanks for this insight.

[@jessicas5]

Kirk thank you for your coverage of this situation. I believe your knowledge and expertise in this field is very important and more need to know and understand the system our country has.

[@sinan2.71]

I never paid any attention to this case, but today I looked it up KZbin. I started with Law and Order channel. But you have given more insight. Thanks!

[@robinehunter3648]

You are remarkable! I am so impressed with your deep, wide perspectives. Thank you very much!🙏👍💞

[@RaptorSeer]

Hi, just found your channel because of this case and I'm really enjoying your breakdowns. My take on the breathy laugh in her video, to me, feels like it's concealing anger and disgust, and it comes off as halfway between a chuckle and a gasp. I think it's something people do when they know they're being watched and are trying to remain presentable. You even do it at 5:20 when you mention working with CPS and abusive parents. Sheer exasperation, which in your case is appropriately directed, but very misplaced when she's doing it.

[@butterscotch2775]

I do think her laughing comes from a pride-like place, but I also want to bring up how big the "mormon smile" culture is. As an exmormon myself, I've seen how the people in my church wards growing up would smile and laugh about literally anything and everything. It's very uncanny, especially because that outward picture of happiness often isn't as genuine as it's trying to seem (or it's creepily genuine in a moment where it shouldn't be, like expressing joy/pride while talking about how you abuse your kids to other people). In my experience, mormons are often taught that "negative" emotions like anger/sadness are satan's influence, or are just something generally inappropriate to express if we were good believers. Our "positive" emotions and thoughts all came from the holy spirit, and primarily expressing those basically signalled that we were closer to god/had stronger faith/etc. And in cases of abuse (like this one, my own, or the other kids I knew growing up), often that picture perfect image and emotional display can snap and turn violently the opposite at home because they're so bottled up everywhere else. It's hard to explain because I know those things are experienced outside of mormonism, but it's such a specific experience imo and I just wanted to add it to the conversation because I thought you might find it interesting! :)

[@judyk928]

I agree with your second opinion about her laughing, it sounded like she knew it was wrong and embarrased.

[@lux.illuminaughty]

I think she is embarrassed of her kids being kids, not of her own behavior. I'm not saying you're wrong, it's just how it looks to me. Her behavior progressively escalates, and I just don't think she would have filmed, edited, and posted content she wasn't sure about or thought was actually wrong. She's way too concerned with appearances to put out something she thinks makes her look bad, but she's so convinced of her righteousness she can't see how bad she looks to most of us. She has a very high bar when it comes to judging herself wrong and a very very low bar when judging others.

[@Jamiwrites]

I love how you describe the impact of the division of charismatic leaders. This has been the most obvious issue to those of us paying attention. Please keep shedding light on the solutions! These are the topics we need. Thank you

[@judyk928]

Regarding the 15 CPS visits, I believe that since they knew they were dealing with high profile you-tubers who have lots of viewers that critisize and are just wanting to cause trouble with a family they don't like, they would be more likely not to do anything or write it off.

[@Agiee23]

It was a very interesting episode. Thank you dr Kirk :)

[@thecuriousdoctorsevedge]

Research has shown SES status is a predictor of CPS involvement. High SES = less likely to be involved/investigate. This is also CPS in a heavily Mormon area, and those values related to interaction between government and family could be factors. Jodi Hildebrandt was continually recommended as a therapist despite decades of evidence presented to the church that there were concerns/abuse/neglect so it doesn’t make sense to me that the way CPS functions in that place specifically could be independent of the overall Mormon culture, the culture comes to work with them even when there are federal standards.

[@amybe3]

You nailed it. I’m 44 wishing my parents were different. Missing them. Worried about their declining health and unable to do anything

[@saraadams9518]

Appreciate you covering this topic.

[@elizabethwutzke9040]

Free parenting classes should be available for troubled parents. 😢

[@GatheringPlace123]

I was acutely aware when she said'I gave my daughter a tongue lashing" and immediately thought she was speaking code for SA.

[@ReptilesGeniales]

Thanks for a good episode, I will come back and listen to more of your stuff!

[@StrayMind]

CPS in my experience never helped us because they would call our mom before hand, tell her when they were coming and who said what to who and exactly what was said. She would come home screaming and would blame us for the investigation while yelling at us to make the house look livable as we were living in squalor. They would come and see the freshly somewhat tidy house and make an assumption my mom was trying her best and leave.

[@vaniareyneke4761]

Any possibility that this was overlooked because there was no lack of money or food. If a psychologist paid them a visit the abuse would be picked up.

[@er985327]

Im glad youre touching on the limited powers of cps. I have witnessed a lot of situations where there is clear neglect but they are bound on family unificiation so if theres no immediate physical threat they assume educating the offending parent will solve the issues

[@CabinFever52]

Just think of all those kids being affected by her channel that parents went to for some kind of guidance in raising their kids. They were looking for answers and this is what they got and they apparently loved it. Disturbing range of possibilities.

[@NRaptor]

It seems like pure, genuine laughter that she can't help bursting out

[@erikavaleries]

My mom still does this laughing during her humiliation and punishment - publicly too. It still gets worse as she ages. As a child, she was better contained and her rages & degradation were directed at extended family more than me. Then she started chasing me around the house screaming at me that I deserve to know what it’s like to have an abusive mother like she says she did. I don’t know, because my grandmother was wonderful to me - maybe to spite my mom? Now she acts like a sadistic predator or bully spreading lies and harassing me, after I asked her to stop contact & communication. I am her main target now, even from a distance. I do not respond to the abuse or baiting to fight. I hope to never see or interact with her again. Thank you for explaining this in a way that helps me feel less afraid & guilty for removing her from my life & thereby exposing her. Several people contacted me as a young adult to warn me, but I knew zero about this behavior and longterm effects on me. Now intellectually I get it, but emotionally it’s still shocking and disgusting.

[@ms.frizzle.explains]

The scripture "spare the rod, spoil the child" is actually used in the same context as "the Lord is my Shepard," so the "rod" is like a shepherd's rod that is used to guide the sheep, not beat them. It's telling parents to teach and guide and direct children, not beat them. Anyone who uses that to abuse their children is out of their mind.

[@tdawg662]

I struggle with some cfs workers/ the system (at least in Canada where I live), because it’s a replication of the 60s scoop, many families and loving parents who struggle are not given support at the same time. Children are taken away and parents are shamed for struggling. That being said- I def do not think this cps would be wrong at all in this case to remove the children. No matter what though, these kids gonna need A LOT of therapy, and I hope they get that, not just mum being arrested. I love how you talk about the attachment disruption!!!! This is a lot of what I was thinking too! Also when you said that some of you are sitting there wishing your parents were proud of me… that seriously spoke to me lol

[@abundantlyinspired]

People will blame "religion" for or against it as reasons for their decisions. Narcissism and self-centered motives are imo more to blame. I grew up wayyyyy before the internet and still suffered from abuse via a narcissist. So it's not just the online world entirely to blame. People just love to punish or gain importance by hurting others. Just my two cents.

[@dee8714]

She was following fanatical church beliefs and practices. This is rampant in the Mormon church!

[@thecuntyone]

perhaps the teachings of the church of lds were the gun and ruby's narcissism was the trigger. but there are a lot of mormons that are taught to be abusive and not necessarily npd or have a diagnosable personality disorder, unless you believe that religion can cause an entire group of people to be narcissistic which i might consider possible especially with the extreme teaching of fundamentalist groups.

[@thecuntyone]

like what part of the teachings of the church of lds would you consider plain abuse because of what they genuinely believe, and what part are people just following what they've been taught to do and end up being genuinely narcissistic and self centered? if that doesn't make sense(sorry) i mean, what part of their personality and actions can credited to them growing up mormon and following the teachings of church of lds?

[@ct6502c]

Religious nuts always abuse kids. Always. Sometimes I think we should just ban religion.

[@spjunkies]

Every word you said is spot on. People vying for power benefit when we are separated as a society. I hope it can be made better in our lifetime, but I have my doubts 😞

[@Khnole6619]

Really appreciate the touch on how brainwashing and cult mentality can be a factor in the situation.

[@LibraLeo325]

I grew up in SLC, my stepmom worked for CPS and then for the welfare system. She used food and other methods I find unethical to discipline us. She was catholic.

[@LilShmerp]

The system is interesting, despite having lived in government housing until age 9 nobody knew where I was from 9-18. I remember making an (albeit inappropriate) joke at age 10 to a cashier about calling cps because my dad (also present) joked about getting me 1 bag of candy instead of 2. The cashier got really angry and said she would hit me in the face herself if he didn't. I only knew of the joke from things we said at home but he explained later that people who get their kids taken away have a lot of animosity towards cps because they feel they "get taken away for no reason" Everything I've ever seen/read in regards to cps contradicts the sentiment they just "like to take people's kids away" I'm 27 now. I've always liked the idea of fostering kids until their family gets well or adopting instead of having kids of my own. The whole system is bizarre to me. How do we spend more on military than the next few top spending countries combined but we don't spend money to lookout for our own kids, vets, elderly, or disabled. I'm not very sensitive but that stuff actually hurts my heart. As far as ruby franke... I believe she believed she was doing the right thing until she realized she enjoyed things on a sadistic level and it snowballed from there. There's no place in civilized society for people like that, though.

[@shaleenalewis8359]

This was so educational, thank you for this video.

[@t.j.5044]

I'd like to hear your take on how Ruby, telling the entire world that her children abuse other children, will permanently scar them no matter whether it's true or not.

[@db9289]

Worked in APS with CpS and there are sooo many cases and when you have ones that are severe those take precedent it’s a broken system!!!

[@briannafederowicz7463]

I was mentally abused for almost all of my childhood by one parent and the other to scared to say anything. I still seek validation at 24

[@Bronte866]

You will always seek validation. I hope you can find a therapist you like and can get support.

[@catherinemarie08]

Would love to hear any insights you have into the husband/father and him being MIA for a year.

[@carlascissors-cohen1442]

Husband leaving is part of Jodie’s therapy (learned this on another video).

[@carlascissors-cohen1442]

She positions it as a way to save the relationship.

[@catherinemarie08]

@@carlascissors-cohen1442 I know that is part of why I find his behavior so odd. He also isn't speaking out against her, which is just gross.

[@mothersgauri4137]

Much appreciate your take on all of this. A lot of very good points made. Thank you. I much appreciate what you said about the child welfare system. While there are valid problems EVERYWHERE, it's clear that going after the child welfare system as the "bad guy" in this situation is not the real answer. As for what the answer might be in this particular case, I would strongly encourage anyone who is honestly interested in it to look up Adam Paul Steed. He recently did a very long interview on the Mormon Stories Podcast. In that one interview, you will find more answers than you could ever want to know. One point that comes out is that Jodi Hilebrandt was being funded and promoted and protected BY the Mormon Church !!! And the amount of abuse and damage going on is beyond imagining. The depth of where this story goes it so far beyond the Child Welfare services !!!.....like another whole universe !! I am hoping that Adam's story, as well as the stories of many other victims , will be spread far and wide. Vital, complicated and horrifying information.

[@TheCandiceWang]

Thanks, Dr. Kirk 🙏🏼

[@Mr.Magic4ever]

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" is the Bible quote.

[@Brookiecookiesmacarons]

One of ruby’s cousins said she had the same abusive childhood where she too was deprived of food, tied up and duct taped

[@runawayshay6409]

If anyone in my house, esp a child tells me they’re hungry I will feed them. That is just insane.

[@Peaceshiet812]

I’ve seen a video, I think on Hidden True Crime , where they go through Kevin Frankes reviews by his students , they are shocking , he’s clearly an abusive horrible man full of anger.

[@virginiasoares826]

I saw that on natalielawyerchick channel

[@notbornagainbornright5046]

Jodi splits up families to keep them together. She calls it killing the relationship so it can be born again

[@lux.illuminaughty]

I don't know all the particulars, but at 08:25 the voice on the video you're speaking about says that "in the past 4 years, the police made 15 visits to the Franke home." The police, not CPS or DFS, or whatever agency.

[@Shutupbradley]

I think that laugh is because she is more or less aware that her choices will sound mostly VERY badly to others. And like you said, that laugh is something one would normally hear in very “normal” light, non worrisome situations. I put my money on its a weird attempt to downplay whats she’s describing

[@kristinegarner3027]

I was raised LDS and this was my mother, it never crossed my mind that this was abuse. With that said, I disliked it so much I vowed to never treat my kids like this. I'm sure I screwed up in other ways but I hope my children know I tried my best with terrible role models.

[@nadzach]

She and the older son were laughing about a series of incidents of that older tormenting the younger. When they laughed about the little one being hung from what I think was a basketball hoop or a gym set. Horrifying. And the older boy wasn't really sure why he was being punished by sleeping on the bare floor using a beanbag chair as a pillow. This might also be because the bed slats were broken on the upper bunk. The little guy below was in a dangerous situation. We haven't heard much about the younger girl. Several incidents were heartbreaking. Give a 4-5 year scissors and repeatedly torture her for using them? Give kids iPad and punish for using them. And yet never take the dangerous scissors away. She enjoys setting the kids up for failure.

[@tenormartin277]

The laughter in some of the clips hits me as nervous laughter. But there are some, like when they are teasing the older boy with fake text messages, sounds more like genuine laughing and is still not ok.

[@erikablue3757]

At least one way we can't deny the dad is involved is that he chose to continue having kids with her, presuming the abuse has been going on for years.

[@Maryculligan]

The M church may have a voice w CPS. Ruby’s sisters & other family members report their parents were not like Ruby. R is described as “Weird”.

[@LisaChenNg]

Thank you for standing up for cps too. It's not their fault. It's the parents fault!

[@Oonagh72]

Kevin said that he left the home and was following Ruby’s lead and that is why he wasn’t seeing the kids. I thought maybe he was still part of the cult and this was him following Jodi’s plan to save their family. Then a guy relayed a story where Jodi told him to move out and get his own apartment to save the family. This makes sense as to why he wasn’t seeing the kids and there weren’t custody agreements. They were still trying to work things out.

[@db9289]

Plus psychological abuse is hard to prove and the abusive people are very, very manipulative

[@sunshine8711]

thank you... very informative.

[@journie_]

Is it possible that people reporting the family to CPS could have inadvertently made the situation worse? Like maybe because CPS went over so many times and didn’t find anything they treated it as a “cried wolf” situation?

[@Sunnyday069]

In this situation, the abuse would have been proved false, requiring thorough evaluation. Even then, additional reports should warrant additional investigation.