Why I Bought an FL5 Civic Type R

[@savagegeese]

I want to make this very clear. I paid $49,000 for the Type R with accessories, plus $4k for PPF and Tint. I have owned 14 Hondas more than any other brand, and its a car to complete the Honda experience for me This car was not free, no discounts were given and I did not get any perks or money/parts from Honda or the dealership. So yes all in I spent 53k on a Civic, chew on that.

[@Eldaino999]

The most finger-waggy comment sections I’ve ever seen on one of y’all’s videos. Haters gon’ hate, as the kiddos say.

[@matthewford229]

Mark, I get the whole supply and demand thing. If you have 1 car and 5 bidders you sell to the highest bidder. BUT are manufacturers and dealers intentionally holding back or limiting inventory in order to create this low supply high demand market where they can then mark up cars?

[@Vashed555]

To break character for a minute here - Mark, the forums and Reddit are overrun with people that are suffering in this economy and they feel as if they deserve something that no one actually “deserves.” My FK8 was MSRP and it stays in the garage for winter - the discourse has changed over the last two years from “how cool is that type r?” To “how much did you pay for it?” It’s stupid. It’s annoying. The entitled children have come out to ruin the experience others are having with these cars.

[@ShowMeWhatINeedToKnow]

@@matthewford229 -- If you have one car and 5 bidders, the right thing to do is just sell the car to the first bidder who meets your asking price -- NOT wait for more bids to come in.

[@2moke2creen]

Thank you! I've been commenting defending you saying your not the type of guy to sellout, especially to a dealership you don't like. Defending the business owner for charging supply/demand is as simple as dealers don't make much profit to begin and overhead is higher than ever with a looming financial crisis. I'd say Mr. Keefe just like that Lexus/Toyota dealership you've been to are trying to make the best out of a difficult situation and the only thing customers can see is they aren't getting the price they wanted despite the excellent dealership experience they provide.

[@bluengold3443]

But it's a manual, Mark. Can you handle it? We all know you and Jack are CVT connoisseurs

[@aprtur]

//In Jack's voice// "not just any CVT.....an EEEE CVT!"

[@1119benjamin]

@@aprtur the superior CVT it must be known

[@heimatliebe116]

@@aprtur You made Jack come alive in my ear!

[@johngaudet6316]

🤣🤭

[@kgjung2310]

Oh, noes! Not a manual! How ever will they drive that thing without the car shifting for them?

[@thepiratepenguin_]

I like how the dealership owner said they don't sell over MSRP and then completely contradicted himself and said they'll sell Type Rs over MSRP.

[@chrisjmiller6]

...... donating the amount above MSRP to a veteran's group is supposed to make it ok 🤣#cutoutthedealers

[@TheSuburban15]

@@chrisjmiller6 So, it's a tax write-off and a publicity stunt simultaneously. Nice!

[@10mudpuppy]

@@chrisjmiller6 Double speak:)

[@tailsneon556]

His facial expressions were a tell that much of what he was saying was complete BS.

[@10mudpuppy]

@@tailsneon556 Very few people can match their facial expressions to their talk when they are not being honest. He failed lol.

[@AndrewMalkin]

Sounds like the dealership hasn't changed much. They still seem shady as hell. Saying they don't charge over MSRP, then turning right around and saying that they do, but it's "ok because they give it to vets" is BS. As a vet, I hate being used like that.

[@JStuartofficial]

Its a lie.

[@DomViktor]

What he says may be true for every car he has outside of the type r, and it is understandable. If he doesn't mark it up whoever buys it at MSRP will flip it for a huge profit, so in the end the driver who truly wants the car will end up paying over.

[@AndrewMalkin]

@@DomViktor They shouldn't say that they don't mark them up then. It's car salesmen double-speak and makes them seem untrustworthy.

[@johnlexus1]

Dealerships make me sick.

[@jesustsa1]

Wait, you don’t support the troops?!? Lol jk

[@captainjack6890]

Glad that you finally pointed something that we knew for years. The Hondas built in Japan have a better quality than those made elsewhere. They might be identical mechanically, but the paint quality, alignment of body panels, interior fit and finish are way better on the Japanes built ones. I suspect that why Lexus only builds cars in Japan.

[@Nicedesk]

...and Canada

[@wrxrob]

My Honda Prelude certainly felt better built than my later Accord.

[@themanthemyththebanger]

I'm a Tennessee boy who loves that Nissan has such a manufacturing presence in my home state, but I've generally felt this about Nissan's cars too. The difference in quality feel between my Japan-built cube and the Mexico-built Sentra it replaced is pretty huge.

[@alexmercer8042]

Can't agree with VW. Their mexican cars are equal or better build than the german ones

[@jorgezepeda2461]

Some Lexus cars are made in North America. Not only Japan.

[@xFlared]

You're a prominent media figure that is bringing immense publicity wherever you go. Of course the dealership is going to treat you like a king. Any average guy that goes there without cameras or subscribers will have a very different experience.

[@JonasRosenven]

Do you think it's a trap?

[@trentimus5700]

100%. Don’t even understand why this is a thing. It almost felt like “look at us get treated special for having a massive channel, and then let this dealer tell you how he’s not the bad guy”

[@kcw9313]

The owner is really confusing. So is he going to charge adm or not? He’s going to donate the adm to charity so he will adm but it’s not really because it’s going to some good cause? What? Software questions hello? Huh? Savage getting a deal in exchange for an ad slot. Lmao

[@bextar6365]

100 % TRUE....

[@cwx8]

Exactly

[@janoycresnova9156]

Owner's comments about markups don't match with what he's actually doing. Says they can't do anything about markups since it's a supply and demand issue, sells Type r to Savagegeese without markup. Says he does not keep markups, won't get rid of their own markups. Says he donates it all to charity. Why not sell cars for MSRP and set up a voluntary charity instead?

[@marclangman4836]

Ya, owner sounds a little sleazy, almost like he owns a car dealership.

[@jesustsa1]

He got this allocation contingent that he sell this car to mark for MSRP. That’s called knowing people in high places and networking. Same goes for average people. Have friends where you need them and they should take care of you. Also, what the owner says is he does not markup a vehicle. As in lists it for 20k over for example. But what do you do as a dealer when 300 people want you 3 allocations. Who do you sell to? You? Because YOU deserve it? To whomever called first? To whomever got there and put down a deposit?

[@johnconcentrius]

@@jesustsa1 fr, these people don’t understand the concept of hard work building a business and connections then getting opportunities because of it. They want the opportunity with none of the years of work.

[@counselingpsychology]

I MIGHT have believed him if he actually named the charity where all those greedy profits were going. But all he could muster was, “…a veteran’s group.” Okay boss.

[@afterburn2600]

Our local Honda dealer has treated my family, my parents, and my friends like trash. This after my father owning an S2000 for 20 years and other Hondas for 40 years; and me owning a CRX for 5 years followed by two S2000s for 12 years. They pulled the tired tricks of "so rare - can't drive it unless you buy it" to my dad when he was interested in the first gen Type R here in the states. They pulled the same trick for and my wife and me this year with a Civic Si [scheduled] test drive - when we showed up they refused to show us the car until we had agreed on a price. We pointed out that it was a $30k car and they pulled the "but it's so rare" bs, so we laughed at them for such inanity and drove our *quite stock and low mileage Focus RS* across the street to test drive a Scat Pack no questions asked. They one time made a friend of mine cry because they sold her a used Accord with modified suspension, then refused to honor the extended warranty she bought because she had modified the suspension. She knew nothing about cars and wouldn't know a mod if it slapped her in the face. They not only tried to shut me up - which did not work since I was there on her behalf - but also treated her like a criminal and started screaming and berating her. I swore that day to never buy another car from those clowns again. I've ironically tried with the most recent Civic Si but they made it clear I should keep the streak alive.

[@JurisKankalis]

Document all that - make some paper or video trail around it - and fight it. Make the higher-ups see and know all that. And there's always a higher-up - either in regional Honda centres who oversee the local jerks - or the federal/state institutions. Here in Latvia, we have PTAC - which in translation means Consumer Right Protection Centre - I'm more than sure you have one or more institutions like that in the good ol US. Fight against that - make those jerks suffer - and understand that people like that can never work in customer care. Never. If no one fights against them - those aholes will proliferate, just like Covid. Greetings from Latvia - keep up the fight.

[@afterburn2600]

@@JurisKankalis fantastic words! Thank you for the thoughtful reply. And wishing you best of luck in your end of the world. Things seem a bit more fluid than usual in your neck of the woods.

[@JeffyPieRocks]

@@JurisKankalis Sounds like my local Hyundai dealer. I ended up getting the better of them and the lying sales rep even seemed to be fired after the whole fiasco. But it never ceases to amaze how scammy the car biz is. One doesn't expect it from new car dealers. They're almost as bad as "Honest Mike's Fine Pre-owned Cars" on the corner.

[@njalsten6766]

Honda dealers have a serious problem of reputation, and at the end the brand is going to take the hit

[@mcd5082]

And you kept going back? If they are that terrible, go somewhere else and let market forces take care of the problem. That’s like my spouse is abusive but they make great food, so I’ll just keep coming back for more. Stupid people lol

[@long_fellow]

Funny how so many car reviewers are buying this Type R. At least 7 other that I regularly watch have "bought" it

[@Vashed555]

Shoulda got a 2023 CR-V

[@paulhenry913]

I have one. Awesome upgrade

[@janoycresnova9156]

Better yet a 2023 Odyssey

[@dragospahontu]

​@@paulhenry913 the CVT heals my soul

[@bluengold3443]

@@dragospahontu the cvt humming completes me

[@TheIperez18]

I'm really digging the new HR V. Original 1st gen CR V vibes but modern

[@earlmacmullin4688]

I really appreciate the fact that you always take the time to explain the thought process behind things like this. The transparency is really really under-appreciated. Thank you (and Jack) for the consistently wonderful quality work and for not being afraid to tell the truth, whether it be about a product, a dealer, a manufacturer, etc. Side note; seeing the true enthusiast side of the two of you makes me so very happy and yet sad at the same time. Being 29 and seeing so few other people be this excited and passionate about cars and how they make you feel, videos like this make you think "Thank goodness there are still a few of us left!". Subscriber for life here.

[@pearlwsz7]

Under appreciated? I think it’s generally appreciated, which is why he has such a loyal following. “Under appreciated” is such an “over appreciated” saying in these KZbin comments….

[@earlmacmullin4688]

@@pearlwsz7 I get what you are saying, but in the greater KZbin automotive universe, I stand by what I said. Regarding his loyal followers, you are 100% correct in that it is very much appreciated.

[@xp50player]

Many people have certain perks based on the company and industry they’re in. I’m glad this Type-R went to someone who will appreciate it.

[@palletjackinfo]

But what happens if the next Honda comes out and sucks? Will SavageGeese say it sucks and potentially eliminate his "perks"?

[@harlepas]

@@palletjackinfo He sold his credibility for a discount. Sad.

[@ghoulbuster1]

@@palletjackinfo these are Hondas sir, they always sucked.

[@palletjackinfo]

@@harlepas I think SG himself would probably still criticize Honda products... But I'm tired of most reviewers and "journalists" pretending to be objective. SG said the quiet part out loud when he said his reviews helped sell Hondas. Reviewers only get things from PR teams because it helps increase car sales. So most aren't going to bite the hand that feeds and get cut off from their supply. Which explains why some channels who do super objective tests like AWD on rollers have to buy their own cars

[@savagegeese]

The only other Honda I will buy is an old NSX. I have owned 4 S2000s, Accord, 3 Civics, Honda Fit, Prelude, and some other piles. Jacks family has owned 2 MDX, TL, TLX, Legend, NSX. This was all before these videos. I used to run a dedicated Honda forum and partially owned several others in 2000s. So not sure what you call selling out but I have a long history with the brand including spending the last 6 months trying to make a free NSX documentary bringing retired engineers out for a video that will be published on KZbin. So yeah, I dont care if people think I lost integrity because I bought a car at MSRP and paid normal prices on floor mats and a wing.

[@CarsGarage]

Red is a perfect match for the new Type R.

[@04dram04]

I personally think White is also great. Its Japans racing color and many Japanese sports cars have been designed around white paint color.

[@paullucci]

@@04dram04 I’d get it in white for sure.

[@Spyrosklvs]

Always was XD

[@maximus9401]

Just FYI to anyone who's shopping around. I am a Illinois local who just called and spoke to sales department at Brilliance Honda. They're absolutely charging over MSRP. I inquired about a Civic Si that's on their showroom and they're charging near $35,000 for it. Person said there's not many around so that's the price. So they're full of shit. Pretty disappointing

[@TheCarCrazyGuy]

What stops me from buying the new Type R is the insane mark ups. I owned the FK8 Type R and had to wait 3 years before finding one at MSRP + accessories. I purchased an FL5 Sport Touring hatch and it had poor bumper fitment (bumper not clipped into the bracket properly) and the worst thing was how the roof rail had the clear coat buffed through to the color. I was disgusted and sold it. Honda quality as well as other manufacturers have declined substantially over the last few years. It's sad.

[@gns942]

Here in Canada we can't even buy one, with only 546 to be made over the next 3 years. For the first time in years, I'm not even going to bother going to the Canadian Autoshow, because I can't stand to see this shit being displayed and advertised, and then when I ask if I can buy one I'll be told to get on a list to get into a line to get a ticket to a lottery to maybe get a chance to buy one. Fuck that.

[@ldsiverling]

lmao the rear panel gaps on my '20 Si are pretty bad.

[@steverogers7211]

Honda quality has been overrated for a long time now. My parents still buy it based on their old reputation. I had a 2009 CRV and it was a total piece of crap. Honda paint is also absolutely terrible.

[@j.3854]

I freaking work at a Honda dealer. Fairly high up. Still cant buy a FL5. Couldnt buy a FK8. So ridiculous. So my plan if I want a Type R? Buy a used FK8 and put a large middle finger to the FL5 experience. At least it looks like an R.

[@PhatMikeSP1]

@@steverogers7211agreed, grew up a Honda fan boy, still have my 93 prelude si/vtec and 07 tl type s, I have moved on to Lexus and Toyota after owning a is300, with RX and looking for a 4Runner just waiting to see if prices come down

[@danwilcko6397]

Congrats on the Type R, Mark! I have been waiting 9 months for any news on a GR Corolla from my local dealer. I finally heard last week that they received an allocation for a fully loaded Core and it could be mine ..... for $15K over sticker. I understand the supply and demand for these enthusiast cars but it is hard to remain interested with these crazy ADM's. I withdrew my deposit and will spend my time and money with another dealership. I urge everyone to remain patient and you will eventually get the right car at the right price. Good luck to all searching for a Type R, GR Corolla, Golf R, or whatever you enjoy!

[@MrNgMichael]

That sucks... I wished they would tell you the price (or how much markup they're charging) up front to not waste your time.

[@ciello___8307]

Yep! Doesnt hurt to wait a couple months or a year to get a better deal

[@wadesloan]

$15k over is insane to me because if prices ever normalize again, you would be severely upside down on your car loan. A dealership in the Atlanta area told me $15k adm on a Type R last week and said I was crazy for making an offer for $5k over sticker. Definitely refuse to work with them again, the experience rubbed me the wrong way

[@MrNgMichael]

@@wadesloan I tried buying an FK8 2 years ago, and the dealership gave me an option of an 8 year loan... Also yep... especially with high interest rates right now, really not worth it.

[@johngaudet6316]

I chose Golf R friggin AWESOME!

[@alexandravisnick]

I had a similar dealer experience regarding the PDI when I bought my Miata. You could see the sales persons surprise when I told them to not wash it and keep all the film on. Folks who mostly sell CUVs don’t often see particular folks buying a car they have an emotional attachment to. Never mind the OCD folks who PPF a Miata… Great video! I hope you drive the wheels of this new kinder to the eyes CTR.

[@ldsiverling]

nice miat.

[@Tool0GT92]

I went back and talked to the detail guy since since I was forced to pay for ceramic coating to get my wife’s RAV4 at msrp. Lol they just spray it and wipe it off, takes 5 minutes. The average person doesn’t understand paint care and detailing.

[@aprtur]

@@Tool0GT92 same as most protection add-ons that aren't done by a reputable installer - snakeoil. If it's not taking a day or so to paint correct and prep the car, you might as well just go with the standard DISO.

[@Bilyum2000]

Loved This! You managed to capture many of the same feelings I have toward Honda. Fondly remember my past purchases, Integra, Civic Si, and S2000. As a lifelong Honda/Acura owner, I struggle with the lack of exciting cars that would be my next purchase. Your video pushes me to seriously consider the new Civic Type-R and the upcoming Integra Type-S.

[@DOXI305]

This is one of my favorite channels. I'm a Honda guy, and I'm happy for you that you got the car for MSRP. Having said that, this video felt like an ad for Brilliance Honda. Didn't feel like an honest savage geese video.

[@thomasf.7940]

I was wondering why the colors were so vivid and the quality amazing, then realized HDR was on, youtube is finally letting people use it!

[@_IMNNO]

Mark hinted at editing with HDR in the CRX video.

[@GuyGamer1]

KZbin's been letting people use HDR for five years, it's just a matter of your browser or device supports it. For example, Firefox doesn't.

[@privateochoa]

The dealer is full of bs, sad you had to do it to get the car..

[@RtenorioF]

Every car KZbinr (The Topher, Tedward, etc) is buying a new Type R. What the raw truth? Because Honda is selling them at MSRP. Anyone not buying is crazy because it actually makes financial sense. You buy, use, make content and then resell at a premium. It’s a win-win situation.

[@trentimus5700]

Nailed it on the head. They’re all advertisements at this point.

[@theloopholeisntaahol]

Same for Stradman and Hoovie getting a Z06

[@false_cypher]

It's awesome that you got it for list! I got told it was 63k out the door non-negotiable. I walked out of the dealer obviously because unless you only care about the Civic in the vacuum, it's not worth more than 50k.

[@JJ-mh3hb]

the type r shouldnt be more than 40k.

[@BitcoinTo100K]

@@JJ-mh3hb agree started at 34k 2017 then you can tell Honda immediately was like we F'd up raise the price every year until we kill it for EV. Meanwhile Jewtubers get first dibs at MSRP just to shove it down our throats we cant get unless you wanna spend $65k

[@thehumanoid6543]

@@JJ-mh3hb you shouldnt be broke

[@rgbplague7834]

@@thehumanoid6543 Relax, its just a civic chitbox. Worth 40k at the most. Probably less.

[@boygonewhoopdataZZ]

FL5;Type R isn't worth squat considering the Elantra N with a stick is toe to toe with it.

[@ValkenDnB]

Great job on the HDR and visuals in general. I'll say it over and over again, you guys on this channel continue to push the boundaries to the point that I save your videos to my watch list on here so I can get home and fire it up on my 4K HDR mated to a JBL sound bar to get the full experience. I don't know any other channel besides maybe Gears & Gasoline that have me as excited to watch whatever new video you post. It doesn't matter if I'm not remotely interested in the car you're reviewing. I will still watch the video. Your review on the 2022 Civic Si was the reason I actually bought one. It was a huge upgrade over the 2019 Civic Si regardless of it having somewhat of the same engine. All the technical information you get from manufacturers from the changes in shifters, suspension geometry, chassis rigidity is just the icing on the cake. Thanks for everything you guys do and the endless hours of entertainment you've brought us.

[@thestunnaz]

Congrats Mark. Right after Sept 11, 2001 the markets tanked and I had some expendable income. I went to Continental Honda in Countryside, IL and ordered a 2002 AP1 S2000 (Silver with all red interior). I said no to the stupid pin stripes and other options they normally would desecrate the car with. My requests was to call me to be there when the car was being unloaded. I had a little digital camera and took photos of the whole thing. Told them to not wash it and I drove it home in break in mode. That break in period was some of the hardest times to not experience vtec in it for the first time until after 500 miles! I will say Continental was very good with that experience in allowing me, an enthusiast to do it right.

[@MeezyPeezy]

This is literally the best channel when it comes to car reviews . The time and effort you put into production is incredible

[@RDMcK22]

The solution to demand increasing prices over MSRP is pretty simple: build more. We're told over and over that "people don't buy enthusiast cars" yet every enthusiast car is in high demand, cannot be found or can only be found with ADMs. It almost seems malicious at this point.

[@sebastiantoplician1093]

I wonder if it's also because of people wanting to flip those cars? As I've noticed a lot of people have been selling enthusiast cars for more at least since 2015 to now especially for these types between the $35k-$60k range. But yeah if that's not necessarily the case totally agree why aren't manufacturers seeing this demand?

[@janoycresnova9156]

My guess manufacturers don't make much off of each enthusiast car vs smth mass market like a CRV or HRV.

[@eugenux]

they don't need to produce more as the HALO effect is better achieved when the desirability is higher from the insane hype around that particular vehicle. This is the new normal.. so, we, the enthusiast must find ways to get around it, somehow..

[@SC-dw6zm]

@@sebastiantoplician1093 I wouldn't be surprised if that was a major contributing factor for the insane markups. It's like trying to buy a Rolex sports model at an AD. It's literally free money to anyone who's able to buy it at MSRP. I don't know how prevalent flippers are in the car market but they ruin everything for all types of enthusiasts.

[@frankypc]

I think the work you guys do is amazing. I am glad that you were able to get the Type R at MSRP. The quality of the content across the years is incredible. Please keep doing what you love and sharing with us who might not have the possibility to pursue it in the same way but can get some enjoyment in seeing others accomplish such fun stuff.

[@stephenriggs8374]

Much love for all the hard work you and Jack do to get this content out. You guys are my hands down favorite source for straightforward no bullshit reviews! thank you guys for everything you do and I look forward to seeing more from your channel in the future!

[@dreaminginink2029]

Sales manager Warren Choe at Brilliance, literally yelled at me and told me how annoyed he was at receiving these calls about the Type R. You clearly got a special deal since the sonic grey in the show room starts at $59k. I guess KZbinrs are the only ones that can dictate price in this market. Your video is misleading and you made Brilliance Honda look like nice guys, when they are just as slimey as the next. Wasn’t sure how it was possible, but I now hate Honda dealers even more. You should be transparent with your audience and actually tell the full story instead of placing it in the footnotes!

[@Miggy2j]

I love how honest you guys are about the whole experience, you don't get that with many people anymore.

[@ethanrummel6476]

They got much hate for it as they mentioned in they recent podcast. It hurts their relationship with the dealer as well when people cry about them getting a pre pandemic car buying experience (aka not getting screwed). I hope this doesn’t discourage their approach to transparency as it’s one of the many details that go into this channel the best basis for documenting and capturing the spirit of what the automobile industry has done

[@hotdogy12345]

@@ethanrummel6476 where can I find this podcast?

[@prm5798]

I bought my 21 CTR from brilliance Honda. I’ve contacted my sales person and showed interest on their Sonic gray FL5. So far all I’ve gotten is run around on how the car is going to be sold. He told me they weren’t selling it until February.

[@didafm]

Yeah man. Supply and demand. If your house was able to be sold for 650k but your best friend wanted to buy it for 450. Would you take 450. Stfu man

[@nbertolo]

So looking forward to seeing the future videos on the Type-R! I really appreciate the transparency and honesty that Mark brings. You don't see that a lot on KZbin. He should be commended for it. Thank you Mark 👍

[@francisss6631]

Exactly my thoughts.

[@johntechwriter]

When you dedicate a whole episode not to a car, but to the dealer who sold it to you without mark-up, I think the dealer got his money’s worth.

[@giff74]

The car is awesome and I'm sure most of us are thrilled for you!! With so many dealers screwing so many people in really creative ways these days, I'm forced to wonder if any of us would be treated so well by Brilliance or any other dealer.

[@dreaminginink2029]

You should probably read his updated footnotes. He did pay markup. Brilliance Honda are not nice at all. SG bent the truth my opinion.

[@willjam465]

Love your content, Mark. Really like the direction you are taking the channel. Like many others, surprised you channel is not 2-3x current size. Your content deserves it. Wish this channel the best.

[@ChrisProuse]

Great video, and hearing the story behind it was really interesting! I bought a '22 WRX last summer, which I also asked them not to PDI, so I could take it straight to a really nice shop to have the film removed, washed carefully, and wrapped in xpel. For what it's worth... I did have to call about a dozen dealers across Ontario to find an allocation in world rally blue / sport-tech trim that wasn't already taken, and even then it was 4 months out, with most dealers only getting about one a month... but thanks to a letter from Subaru corporate sent out to all the Canadian dealers earlier last spring telling them not to overcharge - I didn't pay a cent over MSRP. So my hat's off to Subaru for not charging more, even when the market's demand at the time could have easily allowed them to.

[@klvb-m]

👋🏾 in Ontario as well with a ‘22, which shop did you take it to? I’ve been looking for one but not sure which would be reputable.

[@ChrisProuse]

@@klvb-m AVOTTO in Pickering - great service :)

[@alexadelaide]

He says he doesn’t charge dealer markup, then goes on to justify why dealer markup exists and says he will donate the markup he charges to a charity. So he definitely does charge markup, and regardless where those funds end up it all adds to market distortion and inflation across all the competition too

[@malcolmar]

Welcome back to the Honda family! Congrats on your sweet ride! BTW. loved the format and quality. The interview with Kevin was very insightful. He seems like a genuine guy and is the type of guy you want to buy a car from. I know I do. Unless you want to void the warranty, you will have a working relationship with the dealership. It helps if the people at the dealership are quality people. Matter of fact I have to take my Type R in for an oil change. Keep up the great work!

[@Veterans-e2c]

Congrats mark as always your more than just a content creator. You are the benchmark on you tube there is no one better.

[@mr.bauerpower4285]

Been following you for many years and you/Jack continue to surprise with the quality, content and personality. 100% in the top 3 of best car youtuber, if not no. 1! Good luck with the Honda and you fully deserve the opportunity to buy it at MSRP! its not a free gift, and all the content you guys have made for Honda is insane. I considered buying a new civic, but in Eu/Denmark, we can only get the 2.0 hybrid CVT and starts from 53.000 USD!!

[@bucketfootbaseball]

Really enjoyed this video. Things like this are the reason why you are one of a handful of creators I support on Patreon.

[@seanm3ify]

Cool story bro

[@m1lkb0xx]

IMO the way people are seeing the FL5 exterior the same way I saw my mk7 gti, I loved the low key clean styling, but it eventually got boring because it ended up looking like any other car on the road. Now I have an fk8 and in terms of styling I’m enjoying it way more, I constantly get compliments from enthusiasts and non enthusiast, I think it’s because it just sticks out however you want to see it good bad ugly.

[@StatusQuo209]

DUDE! DUDE! You are probably the only person that knows how to grade HDR properly on KZbin. My LG C1 is happy. Keep at the HDR content man

[@awolryan]

One of your best videos with an even better story. I too have a love-hate relationship with Honda and their dealers. Really enjoyed your history with Brillance but even more so your experience and their own sharing his vision and approach. Keep the content coming and enjoy that Type-R, Mark!!

[@moguls914]

The owner acted like there was nothing anybody could do to keep the price from ballooning. Like, yes there is. Take first come first serve, sell for MSRP. If you want to sell for over MSRP then whatever - the "S" stands for "suggested" price, not "solid" price - but don't hide behind the "there's nothing I can do about it" argument and say things along the lines of "it's an unfortunate fact" when there's no way it's unfortunate for the dealership - it's actually very fortunate. It just sounds like disingenuous softening speak.

[@BlackTransAmdude]

Mark what you guys do on this channel is brilliant, this is one of my favorite KZbin channels, and I appreciate the honesty, data, and statistics you put out in each video. Top notch stuff

[@nrahim91]

It's fascinating from the UK watching this ongoing price gouging issue in the US. I'm guessing we have some rules to prevent it as you never pay overs for a new car here if you have an allocation. New Type R is £47k here though which is insane considering the previous gen was £33k!

[@JJ-mh3hb]

47k pounds is more expensive than what mark paid, so technically, you're the one getting gouged across the pond.

[@nrahim91]

@@JJ-mh3hb Toyota were much more generous with both the GR86 and GR Yaris being available for just over £30k

[@NordenTV]

What do you expect when it's not made in Swindon anymore. Or EU.

[@nrahim91]

@@NordenTV I mean neither are the Toyotas...I don't think Honda intend to sell many here

[@eugenux]

@@nrahim91 it is 57k euro on the continent. As for Honda, I don't think they really care anymore about UK/EU market, focusing only on the US.

[@stephenmoxley3004]

Great video, Mark. I had a similar experience back in 2018 when I wanted to buy a Focus RS. At the time they were selling for over MSRP. Fortunately, my local Ford dealer was decent and actually sold me the car for under MSRP! Absolutely unheard of, at the time. Still love the hell out of the car! I saw your review of the RS, which was mixed, but I like the track-like ride of the car. Keep up the great work.

[@franklinlewis9280]

No it wasn't. 2018 dealers were discounting the RS like crazy trying to get rid of them. Or at least that was my experience. I got my 2017 RS for $6k off sticker.

[@Robert8455]

Congrats on scoring the car you wanted. I'd like to have one too but won't happen in this market. I'm getting sick of all this "last of its kind" crap on everything. Also nice going for making amends with the dealership. It's a bit weird though saying you sell at MSRP then then not doing it. It's that simple. If you sell at MSRP then its sold when the first buyer gets there and closes the deal. If they are holding out because they only have "two" allocations for the year then the are no different than anyone else that jacks up the dealer markup.

[@SB_Garage]

Great video and transparency with your entire buying process. It takes a person of true character to forgive and reconsider buying from a dealership that wronged you in the past. Sat in a red FL5 Type R the other day and man did it feel good 😎

[@MrEquinoxParadox]

Incredible. This story reminded me of my own situation back in 2007. Back then I worked for the biggest car mag in my country, so I travelled around Europe and the Middle-East driving everything that was released at the time, from Renault Twingos to Audi R8's. I drove it all. Having owned a DC2 for 4 years, I went ahead in 2007 and purchased the first ever FN2 in my country at the time (Cyprus), in red of course, and almost every positive thing you mention about the FL5 here was true of the FN2 back then: the perfect blend of everyday/track car that you wouldn't even mind having your family in without loud design strokes. I owned that car for 13 years, drove it for 188K kilometers ( 116k miles) and the only thing that ever failed on it was the starter. It was, for all intents and purposes, the perfect car. From a Honda fanatic to another, καλοτάξιδο

[@PatrickLino]

I'm going to be honest: This is the only car channel on the planet that moves me with feelings, emotions, and inspiration. Maybe it's because I grew up not far from Mark/Jack in NW Chicagoland or that we are from the same generation. Maybe it's because we share similar sense of humor or our love for Hondas (TSX and Civic owner here). I'm not even a Corvette lover, and your hour-long C8 Z06 review almost made me shed a grown man tear. Almost 🤣. Being honest and transparent is a rarity in the car review industry, and I'd argue you have some of the most loyal followers around. Thank you all that you do. Pop Tart Gang singing off!

[@enron9983]

Nice of you to shoot a free commercial for this dealership.

[@ryeguy88]

I really appreciate getting the dealership perspective of this. Well done SG crew.

[@Courtesyflush52]

Its really interesting because even when he knows he's being interviewed the dealer owner still contradicts himself about whether or not they charge markups Car sales really are for slimy people

[@cjracer]

Congrats on the FL5! The dealership is also where I've had some not-so-nice interactions with in the past and why I was apprehensive about buying the car at first. There are still good deals out there for enthusiast cars, but some cars take more work than others to secure one at or near MSRP.

[@bk138gt6]

I've been looking forward to this video. I appreciate the thought put into decision making; it's something not enough auto KZbin channels do.

[@FCReviews]

As a fellow content creator myself I started following you way before I even thought of making any videos for youtube or creating my own channel. Now that I have my own channel and create content you are on the gold standards that I follow in terms of cinema-quality videos and of course, you guys are hilarious too lol. Mark and Jack you are doing a great job with your content keep up the good work. Also, quick question whatever happened to your old mechanic?

[@BassRacerx]

I think the appeal of the Civic type R is how it is more of a "regular car" that you can daily , track, whatever. but the car being so limited production and high in cost just kills it.

[@olatundeaboaba]

I noticed that the video options all included HDR independent of quality. I think that is the first time I am seeing that in any KZbin video I have watched. Keep up the good work pushing the boundaries.

[@mapwheel00]

Gotta be honest--I have a very high opinion of your channel, but this video tarnishes that somewhat. "I get a Type R at MSRP because I'm a media figure and Honda owes me for all the lip service I've given them" is a flimsy premise for a video. Like, I get it, but you just came out and said the quiet part out loud. You also let that dealer splooge his baby batter all over our faces. "Oh I don't know how we fix this systemic issue!" ... You fix it by not doing absurd markups and you sell to the first person who comes in to make a deal. Problem solved. Instead you hold out for the big payday and do irreparable damage to your business reputation and the brand. Cars are not homes. They are depreciating liabilities.

[@codyweiler6083]

Nothing else on the market that is limited production sells for a set price. Market dictates what it's worth. Much the same way you wouldn't sell your home for 500k when similar ones are selling for 1 million just because an appraiser says it's worth 500k. Like you said it's a liability and no one is owed a car because they were "first"

[@bcrandeis]

Mark, I was with my best friend when he bought his Si from Brilliance Honda. It may be true that they don't sell over MSRP for brand new cars, but my buddy paid a little over sticker for his car because it was "used" (with 3 miles). Seems that is the workaround they may be doing now.... Although they did basically even it out by giving far above what Carvana or CarMax were offering for his trade. Just a transparency note about that dealer - sales guy was really great though.

[@kcindc5539]

Well of course he got a bigger trade allowance, he also got a higher finance rate because the car was already titled “used”. I don’t like the sound of that at all. Seems to me there had already been a transfer of ownership including re-titling of the car before it ever even arrived. That’s not a typical dealer inventory swap, they flipped that car before it ever got to your friend. Was the original factory warranty still fully intact? I’m betting not. Did he get higher % financing? I’m betting he did. Did the dealer get to post two sales of the same VIN in the same month? You bet they did! The first sale (the flip) posts to Honda which they want so they can get more allocation just like everyone else. The second sale is where they make money while also skirting around the ADM issue. In 40 years of car ownership I’ve done 38 purchases, and I’ve never encountered this. Again, there’s a lot more to unpack here but I don’t like the sounds of it. Not. One. Goddamn. Bit.

[@PhatMikeSP1]

I could be wrong but I saw a vid about dealerships in Canada doing that as a loophole to charge ADM on the fl5 type R since they legally can’t sell over MSRP due to Canadian regulations

[@kcindc5539]

@@PhatMikeSP1 uh boy. This is one time I was hoping I’m wrong.

[@v8_sami]

@@PhatMikeSP1 what’s an ADM?

[@PhatMikeSP1]

@@v8_sami Additional Dealer Markup

[@adamrozman]

What if I don't want to "donate" $15k to this guy's "veteran's group"...

[@RaulCastillo]

Yeah, the way he says that he's NOT going to do that and then says when he does, he's going to donate it to a veteran's group. Turned the video off.

[@blueberrycobbler]

No car for you.

[@ChefNick666]

Congrats on the car man!!! 🎉 Honestly, Honda had lost me until they released this model, and now it is a strong contender for my next car

[@erranzimmermann1207]

Unlike some people posting comments, I have no concerns around the channel's integrity and credibility. Obviously, there's a bit of a trade happening of getting the car at MSRP and allowing the dealership to give their spiel, but it's been clear that the channel never holds back on their car impressions. And unlike other venues, I support the promotion of the channel's Patreon and partnership with Dell. I will say though that the dealership's owner was blinking pretty hard when talking about addendums and such in the industry - clear sign of dishonesty and attempts to hide what he really thinks. Very transparent to anyone with a little insight into reading body language. Regardless, the crew's efforts to make quality videos over other reviewers is acknowledged.

[@Cheo.M]

I love when people blame "the market" when they set the pricing. It's a nice way to shift blame but it's still the dealers driving the price increase. This isn't rocket science, if there's a list of people waiting for a 40k car all got the money all approved, and cars become available, first come first serve. You can't over charge and cause the pricing to shoot through the roof and then criticize it and say you don't know how it will rectify itself. You all caused it, and then blame the market, you are the market we all are.

[@shahulhusman]

It's the market though.. are you upset when most times the market dictates big discounts or are you like "no, I'll pay msrp".... most of the times market prices help consumers ..just low volume special cars will be going for more, especially the 1st year.. In a few years the car may appreciate and be worth 60k.. are you going to sell for 40k because that was the msrp?

[@Cheo.M]

@@shahulhusman this isn't low volume vehicles most new vehicles in my area are selling above msrp (trucks and cars), GMC Sierra, Toyota Tacoma, Rav4, Honda Accord these aren't low volume vehicles. This isn't the market it's dealers scalping. You mentioned the only time market prices help consumers. What market prices are helping consumers? Fuel prices are higher, energy cost are high, food cost is high, utilities are high, goods are high, Air travel cost more, and now dealers are charging a premium on top of already high prices for vehicles. Consumers get a few sales a year...

[@victorcoglianese4158]

Type R aside, it’s good to hear about this dealership’s turnaround. I pass this dealership twice a week on our way to hockey practice and I always wondered how they stayed in business given their horrible local reputation. Great turnaround story!

[@mharro88]

Do you honestly think this guy's experience is the same as the average Joe ?

[@Lazirus951]

I get where the Dealership and Mark are coming from, but the reality is the Type R will be priced at unobtanium levels for most people. We all just watched one get sold at MSRP due to the kickback effect. It doesn't feel great as a viewer and hurts the position of trust when we know unconscious bias is in effect.

[@evilkid500]

Mark, keep pushing that boundary with quality video content. You guys are on par with the top gear crew at their peak. I watch your videos on a 4k LG OLED and a 5.2.2 sound system. Your attention to the video and sound quality has always been a highlight of your channel for me. The HDR was excellent in this video except for the color of your skin. It was bouncing all around for me. You went from DJT orange to memberberry purple in the course of 4 seconds. All the car shots were fantastic. I look forward to a future video on how you conquered HDR implementation on KZbin! Congrats on the Type R!

[@Havanu81]

I thought that was intentional somehow. Very weird and pretty easy to fix.

[@SparklingWalrus]

this is just a flex for your burned in oled

[@Havanu81]

@@SparklingWalrus Oh Chad, you poor man! LED forever, am I right?

[@SparklingWalrus]

@@Havanu81 lol i’m getting an expensive oled panel soon

[@LongWalker730]

I will never trust a car dealer no matter what. Buying a new vehicle in the US is a terrible experience no matter where you go. It's harder than buying a house.

[@100xasd]

Congrats on the purhcase and getting it at msrp. Also I agree, we are living in quite bittersweet times indeed. Before EVs and hybrids start to take over completely, these types of cars deserve to be sold at reasonable prices and available to everyone who wants one.

[@singular9]

I just bought an accord 2.0. I was lucky that I wasn't shafted by mark ups and insane pricing. But it took nearly 8 months of trying to make that happen. Every honda dealer within 500 miles wanted 8k-10k over MSRP on a car that starts at 33k. At that point I started just looking at an ES350 since lexus dealers have zero mark up policies. Then I heard about the 25k mark ups on the type r and that was it. I get it, free market, but at this point, dealership laws in the US need to go. Manufacturers should be able to sells direct to consumers, and it would immediately make it evident that the majority of people in the US that "have jobs" don't actually do anything or produce anything except numbers on paper. There is a reason I pretty much always drove toyotas, its because the dealer in my area has always been honest, straight forward, and open to negotiations at any time. I tried honda several times, and I ended up buying camry's over and over, because the toyota dealership experience was THAT MUCH better right across the street.

[@jacobcunningham6771]

Sure they'll do it for a KZbinr with millions of subscribers but us yokkes will never be treated this way

[@JesusMartinez-nu3ni]

I saw this video on my fanciest TV and was thrown from the sudden resolution. Nice work on the HDR. Keep it going! By the way, in previous videos like this you e mentioned, like all of us, has struggled in the past financially. Years later you got yourself TypeR. I hope someday I can be like you. Congrats

[@ErikCuchna]

Love the car and love the dealership. I’ve bought from them before and my Dad and Kevin have been friends for years. As a side note, I bought a 2019 GLI DSG a few years ago and you were one of very few channels that reviewed the DSG. Keep up the great work!

[@Black2005Lotus]

Congratulations, Mark! The thoroughness and thoughtfulness of your content has you made you the leader of video reviews for years- your positive review of the S60 T6 R-Design even helped lead me to buy one. As far as mark-ups, I waited 2 years to buy a Focus RS because that’s how long it took for a dealer to sell at MSRP. It’s a strange and somewhat unfortunate world in that regard, but honestly if anyone deserves an allocation at MRSP, it’s you for your hard work (and appreciation of Honda products). Enjoy that beast!

[@Youtubeuser1aa]

What is MSRP other than a random number the corporate office came up with?

[@KT_One]

So I’m happy you are in a point in life where professionally you have access to this car for MSRP. Unfortunately for the majority of us the actual price pushes this to a point where the value is severely diminished.

[@Affalterbach1967]

As Mark nears 50 years of age, 9:52 hits hard. It's already time to be nostalgic for the 2023 internal combustion joy.

[@planetfabulous5833]

Only 50?

[@michaelfreestone8184]

I bought my first Si (2022) and I absolutely love it. They really outdid themselves this year. The same dealer I bought my Si from is sadly selling the first CTR they get for 10k over msrp. They said if the people back out on it they’ll call me. I told them I won’t pay over msrp. Overall haven’t had any bad experiences with Hondas or Honda in general

[@TingTingMelody]

Congrats on the CTR, FL5 looks amazing and I can't wait to see your videos on it. As far as the dealership experience, none of us will be able to buy one at MSRP any time soon so there is a lot of jealousy in the comment section. I do appreciate the honesty in documenting your experience, it is good to see even if it becomes a giant ad for the dealership. I blame Honda for not making more CTR, they know damn well what the dealerships are charging and it is turning people off the brand. I think it will hurt Honda in the long run. I have bought 7 Honda/Acuras over the years and my next purchase won't be one. Part of the reason is this nonsense, part of it is that they are so late to the EV segment, and part of it is that their quality/reliability has gone downhill (not that Honda is alone in this).

[@carloscaro860]

I love you deep dive into the actual thought process and decision making when evaluating a purchase. Might not be the most “interesting” video but it’s not filled with crap, so for that we thank you

[@daviddavid1320]

I don't understand the owner said he won't sell over MSRP but he is going to donate proceeds over MSRP? What is it?

[@nacholibre1465]

It's hard sometimes to admit you have a privilege, even if it's earned. Congrats on the new car, glad it's going to an enthusiast and not just someone with deeper pockets.

[@bradcarpenter1881]

My family has been going to brilliance Honda of crystal lake for the past 20 years (2002 civic, 2011 civic, 2013 civic, 2013 Odyssey) and I can say from experience they are not the same dealership today as they were back in the day.

[@rrennnerr]

You are correct, this is a big investment! Especially for it being a Honda Civic. I was extremely lucky and was able to get my hands on a 2023 FL5 Type R the week before Christmas at MSRP. After PPF, ceramic coating, tint, all season tires and insurance, I am $44,000 out of pocket so far with a $10,000 loan on top of that. YIKES! I will do my best to keep it in great condition without being overly obsessive. My first car was a 2001 Honda Accord that I got in 2014 while I was 16 years old. My most current car is a 2009 FA5 civic Si with currently 211,500 miles. Needless to say, this is the first vehicle I have purchased that is not a high milage commuter on its 3rd+ owner. I’m excited for the 20-25k miles per year I am going to put on this thing!

[@willjam465]

"Car is worth what someone will pay for it". Yep, and how we correct the pricing problem is for people to just say 'no' to the dealers. Longer they sit, the more the price will correct. I hope people do wake up and start showing strength in numbers by saying 'no'. I know I am not buying any new car right now due to dealer behavior as well as rising interest rates. Will just play around with older cars I can pay cash for and have fun with.

[@MeltingRubberZ28]

I've been saying this for years! People need to starve these 🤬 dealers

[@Realistick]

The color and dynamic range results so far seem to be fantastic, and you guys were already some of the best in the business. The golden goose if you will.

[@darthdarthbinkss]

You have incredible production quality as well. Keep it up!!

[@Realistick]

@@darthdarthbinkss Thank you!

[@lucagattoni-celli1377]

We should all be so lucky to interview the chief engineer of a car before deciding to buy it

[@clubracer6]

Luck is great, but had nothing to do with the opportunity they created for themselves.

[@lucagattoni-celli1377]

@@clubracer6 Amen!

[@themanthemyththebanger]

I too had a terrible experience with a Honda dealership. Unlike you, I still haven't gone back. Their neighbors across the street at Nissan have always treated me with respect, never used high-pressure, insulting sales tactics or tried to sell me cars I didn't want to buy because they thought I wasn't good enough to drive the car I came to look at. And in the intervening years they've earned my business on two new cars and every service appointment, while I've never darkened the door of the Honda dealer again. If you're in car sales, pay attention to this video. First impressions matter. And even if you rope a buyer into your high-pressure, insulting business model, you're far less likely to earn repeat business from them in the future.

[@TurninTrackOut]

Absolutely love your spec. Congrats, going to be a great one for you. I want to see a lot of videos of this (on track especially).

[@molethan6138]

This was basically a dealership ad. I really like your channel but this video provided almost no value for car buyers. This is more "influencer" content than anything.

[@i.d.6492]

My Veloster N is pushing 335 to the wheel. I know it's not better than type R but it's pretty close. I have stage 2 and all in all I only paid $37K for the car and tune. I know type R is a great car but I feel like if you're willing to spend so much money on type R get fully loaded audi RS3

[@bearclaw5115]

RS3's have mark-up too!

[@MeltingRubberZ28]

My GLI was 23k out the door. I've put about 3500 into it and it makes north of 350WHP on 93. Ethanol soon.

[@i.d.6492]

@@MeltingRubberZ28 wait till I do turbo upgrade it'll be over

[@MeltingRubberZ28]

@I. D. yeah when your motor pops lol. EA888 handles 500WHP for years. Those Hyundai's are popping at 400WHP. Plus it still cost me 14 grand less 🤷‍♂️ Anyway I'm not hating. I like the new Hyundai N series. I'm glad they're outputting enthusiast cars.

[@perfectogaming5240]

@@i.d.6492 wait till it falls apart 🤣🤣🤣👍😎

[@johnbanks8269]

This was a bad take. I like the channel, but you are special and get MSRP while the average guy gets screwed. great work bud

[@MarkPakula]

Shoulda got the F1. Congrats though, it really is a dream car. Enjoy it.

[@beaulunawolf1198]

The saddest part really is this is how enthusiast cars die. Less supply means more fighting for allocations. This in turn causes price gouging and as a result more average people are priced out of the market. Once people are frustrated to this point they swear off buying new enthusiast cars and then the manufacturers have no reason to continue developing new ones. Now a once thriving enthusiast community just dries up. I say this as a Focus ST owner. I paid sticker price in 2018 at 31k and the sad thing is if the car is totaled for insurance I cannot afford to buy a similar new equivalent that has the same feature set. Everything now it seems is pushing towards that 40k plus and it's infuriating.

[@anAmishGuy]

I bought a new 2018 GTI S 6MT that was marked way down because it was the end of the model year and there were still a bunch on the lot. Paid $24,500 otd, and in today's stupid market it's still worth about the same or even more, even four years and 43,000 miles later. Anything comparable that's new is pushing 40k, like you say. Maybe things are fine in exotic sports car land, but a major part of the appeal (and point) of hot hatches is that they're supposed to be actually possible to buy. A lot harder to give a shit about them when they're not.

[@beaulunawolf1198]

@@anAmishGuy Exactly. I'm doing my best to take care of my ST as I probably won't be able to buy anything like it new again. This is why I've started venturing into motorcycles. They aren't exactly cheap either but by comparison it is at least affordable and keeps me interested in motoring.

[@alexiscruz8225]

Felt like a car dealership ad...

[@PianoBlackTrimRep.]

I normally thumb up a Savagegeese productions video review even before watching it but fellas this one just feels like one giant ad commerical for the stealership in exchange for letting them sell you the car for MSRP.

[@mugensamurai]

This is why I buy a Tesla now. You order and get your car none of the bidding bs just order, wait a month, and pay. Heck I can even charge my car from 30-100% at the grocery store too during my grocery shopping. Times have changed.

[@oleksandrsukstanskyy9383]

Wow. What a pleasant surprise, that my favorite car channel happened to be located just around the corner and reviews locations I can actually go to. Thanks for another excellent video.

[@iduimovic]

I dislike the Owner's approach to the pricing issue... Yes, there is a way to change that. Starting by you as a dealership, donating the markup to a charity it is not the solution, it is just washing your hands and cleaning your tax book on donations. You need to stick with the MSRP period. You will see, that dealership will be the only one and the one to go for the vast majority of the buyers, and you ended up forcing the rest of the competition to do the same. But if you play the game of higher bidders you won't stop the cycle. Now the extra add-on like the PPF from the dealership That is only a few clear stickers at the door edges, and door handles inside, partial hood, fender, and mirrors does NOT cost $4K. Remember dealership does not do a paint correction and professional PPF like independent shop does. And force you to get it in order to buy the car with them at MSRP it is another way to screw up their customers. I keep having the same experience with the dealership and now more recently with Lexus, where I have to fight to the last dime and renegotiate the final out-the-door price of the vehicle that I ordered because the salesperson keeps playing the game of going back and forth with the manager and each time they talked to you over the phone about the allocation and the status of your order they change the game rules. I'm sick and tired of old dealership behavior and thinking that the customer is stupid and ignorant and that they can say any BS story and you as a customer will believe that. It may work for a small percentage but the vast majority either walk away to don't say anything and go with it.