Sex Work | Philosophy Tube

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Bibliography:
Lutnick and Cohan, “Criminalization, legalization or decriminalization of sex work" in Reproductive Health Matters 2009 www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...
Kollontai, Prostitution and Ways of Fighting It www.marxists.org/archive/koll...
Gentleman, “Laura Lee: ‘It’s now far more difficult to stay safe,” in The Guardian www.theguardian.com/society/2...
MacKinnon and Dworkin, Points Against Postmodernism luceononuro1.files.wordpress....
Shane, “”Getting Away” with Hating It” in Tits and Sass www.tapatalk.com/groups/camgi...
Cook-Martin, “The Future of Migration” in Public Books www.publicbooks.org/the-futur...
Bindel, “Prostitution is Not a Job," “Why Prostitution Should Never Be Legalised,” “My work as a prostitute led me to oppose decriminalisation."
Mac & Smith, Revolting Prostitutes: The Fight For Sex Workers’ Rights (Verso, 2019) tinyurl.com/y58phrq5
Agustin, Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets, and the Rescue Industry (Zed Books, 2007) tinyurl.com/y4xh7d44
Marte Mesna interviewing May-Len Skilbrei, “Mixed Signals in Nordic Prostitution Policy,” in Kilden kjonnsforskning.no/en/2015/09/...
Skilbrei and Holmström, Prostitution Policy in the Nordic Region: Ambiguous Sympathies tinyurl.com/y5keg9hw
O’Hara, “Why Carrying Condoms in NYC Might Get You Arrested,” in Vice news.vice.com/en_us/article/8...
Tyler, “10 Myths About Prostitution, Trafficking, and the Nordic Model,” in Feminist Current www.feministcurrent.com/2013/...
Murphy, “The Trouble with Choosing Your Choice” in Feminist Current duckduckgo.com/?q=megan+murph...
781§23
Mia Mulder, “Sweden: Heaven and Hell” • Sweden: Heaven And Hel...
Sandel, What Money Can’t Buy: the Moral Limits of Markets (Penguin, 2012) tinyurl.com/y6bvvtu7
Nada DeCat, “The Racism of Decriminalisation” in Tits and Sass titsandsass.com/the-racism-of-...
PION, Shadow Report to the UN/CEDAW - www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/f...
Red & Black Leeds, Sex, Work, and Sex Work
Red Umbrella Project, “NYPD Bans Use of Condoms as Evidence in Some Prostitution Arrests” www.nswp.org/timeline/event/n...
Ahmed, Strange Encounters"
tinyurl.com/y2yfscl2
Hemery, “Strippers Take Aim at Women’s Equality Party Over ‘Sting’ Operation,” in Tits and Sass novaramedia.com/2019/04/25/st...
Quinlan, “Hundreds of Sex Workers and Allies Lobby to repeal New York’s ‘Walking While trans’ Ban,” in Think Progress thinkprogress.org/sex-workers...
Testimony Generously Provided in Confidence from Sex Workers Around the World
Zahara Stardust, “Protecting Sex Worker Human Rights in Australia,” in International Bar Association
MUSIC:
‘Soft Light’ & ‘Destination Zero’ by Nina Richards - www.ninarichards.co.uk/
"Shadowlands 4 - Breath," “Drone in D,” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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#SexWork

[@PhilosophyTube]

Abracadabra ✨♥️♣️♦️♠️

[@mathieuleader8601]

BRUCIE BONUS HIGHER LOWER SEX POSITIONS

[@flashfire505]

Abracadacab

[@dirty_diver]

Philosophy Tube the point of my article is that NZ is not really decriminalisation. unless you consider nordic model decriminalisation. criminalising elements of sex work is not decriminalisation. further, NSW might be considered closer to decriminalisation. maybe you don't have time to really read full articles. the only reason NZ is considered decrim is because white sex work movement who think criminalisation of POC is felt as less harmful.

[@michikomanalang6733]

I really, really love the depth and detail that went into this. The nuances to the terms I thought I knew-the mind reels, man. Once again, you've taken a stance I already had but couldn't always defend and given me the tools to do so. And I know I'm getting better, too-when you read out Kollontai's Hot TakeTM (I've paused it just there) I immediately thought, "Okay, well, but why are we so ready to coddle the man and tiptoe around his backward sensibilities?" If I ever have the chance to redo my paper on the MNL red light district I'll be sure to look into your references. Thank you so much. Also you can tell the guy who cuts your hair that I'm fine, thanks.

[@mathieuleader8601]

is that the safeword....

[@ash-tv3bu]

it disgusts me that so many people are totally comfortably consuming porn and other products from sex workers, but won't support the laborers themselves, and even go out of their way to condemn them.

[@nodmyhead6198]

Bitting the hand that feeds you. Although, to be fair, that isn't exclusive to sex workers. People do it all the time, for example telling their kids they should respect blue collar workers because without them, society would crumble, while simultaniously telling them to study so they can get a nice job and not end up a janitor or bar waitress.

[@carlissiawilkins4432]

@@nodmyhead6198 mine do kind of the same thing. Except they tell me to start from those jobs like they did while pursuing an education.

[@tawdryhepburn4686]

If I had a billion dollars, I would use it to push for decriminalization of sex work and the establishment of a sex workers union. Additionally, I have not consumed porn in about 5 years, ever since the ‘tube’ sites took over, I am no longer confident that the participants in many of the videos are consenting.

[@fun_ghoul]

That's just like eating a McBurger while complaining about foreign workers.

[@islabee94]

Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes. So much this. The hypocrisy is mind boggling and disgusting.

[@onelazynoob15]

"I think some of us have this image of 'being arrested' as this gentle knock at the door..." Abigail... I'm American. The only mental image I have of 'being arrested' is getting shot.

[@BrunoM19T11]

Here in Brasil you dont even need to be arrested to get shot.

[@holicaholicatrinity]

And I oop-

[@nova9156]

only if youre black,,,,for white people its defo not much harsher than a knock

[@JC-jd1us]

I have an image of someone being slammed to the ground and begging for their life

[@JC-jd1us]

@ scotty bottom dude white people do get arrested and killed. But the white people who are killed are disportionatly autistic, or/and deaf or/and queer. It's not the run of the mill joe. Although they get shot too but not at the birth rate at which black people are born vs. shot the same w naitive Americans. Also before you say where's your citations I would say the same thing to you.

[@Jay-wz8zw]

Mad respect for actually SPEAKING TO A SEX WORKER and letting her SPEAK FOR HERSELF. This is what feminism looks like in praxis !!

[@aidancollins1591]

@@amy4839 Yea, the work sucks. We can make it better by legalizing it, de-stigmatizing it, and promoting sex worker unions.

[@aidancollins1591]

@Firestar The best way to do that would be to remove it as an option of last resort and make the work safer. Just like how abortion rates do not go down when you criminalize abortion. Just like how criminalizing drug use does not reduce drug use. It's the same deal here. All it does is make these activities unsafe.

[@fern5505]

@@amy4839 nobody is saying the industry in it’s current state is good. We are saying it’s not inherently bad.

[@sp4c1ng_0ut8]

@@amy4839 1) Quit it with the paternalism. Talking down at people don't make your argument stronger, it just makes you look like a bitch. 2) 'Whataboutism' isn't gonna help anyone. You bring up a great point about the industry being horrible. And it is a big problem. But no one is saying "After we decriminalize sex work, all problems will disappear". It is 1 step in a long list of things we need to do. But a journey of 1,000 steps begins with 1. I don't mean to sound pretentious, but I *hate* it when people use the words "sweetie", "honey", "boo" or "child". Names have no place in an arguement.

[@AnEntropyFan]

@@amy4839 Well, yes, with worker protections, a top of civil rights protections, it is as a matter of objective fact much safer even in a Gibsonesque patriarchal corporate dystopia like the US. All kinds of men visit sex workers, I'd imagine, just like all kinds of men visit bars. Actually, that's not correct, drinking has been decriminalised and bars can be legal so currently mostly the kind of men that visited bars during the Prohibition era visit sex workers. What you're arguing for increases the likellyhood of bad actors as the milieu is heavily slanted towards people who don't care about legality in a broader sense (not just when it comes to victimless crimes). I mean, sure, the mob runs some bars today and sometimes the moonshine will turn you blind or be extremely poisonous and kill you, but it doesn't run all bars and you won't find methanol in your branded drink of choice...

[@CanelaAguila]

Sex work is legal in the Netherlands. When I was 19 I barged into the sex workers union office basically saying 'hi, I don't get sex', and I was met with the most open minded, nice, non-judgemental people, the first ones to seriously ask me about asexuality. I had my first sexual experience with a female escort and I'm very happy I could take a calm, analytical approach my first time without anyone expecting anything from me. I've been an ally to sex workers ever since.

[@q.s.9810]

Aardige gasten

[@theblandcharlie822]

thats really nice!

[@CanelaAguila]

@@baguettegott3409 Well, it all depends on how much importance you attribute to sex and virginity. I don't see it as giving up on finding someone who likes me (I'm still looking and dating), but more as a way to have a first time with no pressure whatsoever. And considering I'm on the ace spectrum, a way to explain to my partners where I'm at with sex. And it is just sex in the end, virginity is a nonsensical concept. I haven't 'lost' anything, I gained something (to quote Jane the Virgin), and not many people I know had a first time as good as mine. A small sidenote: I do think a part of it was my wish to not depend on or burden any potential partner too much, but I'm still really glad I did (if nothing else it's a cool story!) If you do decide to do it I would recommend taking your time to find a company or person that you would feel at ease with. I went for an escort service eg. with some escorts specializing in lesbian women who discovered their sexuality later in life. At least make sure that you have enough time, quickies are not the best idea in this situation. And bring in cash, so no time is wasted on going to the ATM! ;)

[@theblandcharlie822]

@@CanelaAguila I totally agree. Virginity is more of a concept that was created by people who wanted to increase the 'value' of their daughters, so that they could gain more from a political marriage with the argument that virginity means better birthing ability.

[@alienillusi0n]

Good for you. I was manipulated into the sex industry at 18 and would endure horrible trauma that would last me a lifetime and be called a SWERF when I openly spoke against the industry and the legalisation of prostitution.

[@jamiemoffa2919]

As a medical student and future physician it broke my heart when Riley said that she can't get a gynecologist to have an honest conversation with her. Health care providers are supposed to provide non-judgmental care to all of our patients. Sex workers *need* good sexual health care; gynecologists who refuse to meet them where they're at and talk about protection, regular STI screenings, and other methods of reducing the risk of harm are failing to do their jobs.

[@authorlynndavis]

The ways our bodies are policed by medicine is just.... it's horrible. I have a friend whose health would improve greatly if she could get a hysterectomy because of health problems related to reproductive health. She can't get one even though it will literally make her healthier without a man's permission.

[@heartache5742]

maybe that's one of the more real roots of the sti problem

[@malevolentntt8155]

You ought to be kidding. Medical chain of custody, or lack of it, will prevent you from getting proper care.

[@lachusity]

I agree but its better to firstly reduce sex work as much as possible. Stigma is much harder to eliminate.

[@jamiemoffa2919]

@@lachusity Sorry but people's health comes first, and that means providing everyone with the comprehensive reproductive health care they need. This includes sex workers, and we can't neglect their health while we "first" try to make them disappear, as Ollie keeps alluding to in his video. Besides, my post wasn't even saying that health care workers need to agree with or reduce stigma about sex work, just that they have to do their damn jobs and treat this population's needs.

[@kid14346]

"Congratulations. You are being rescued, do not resist!"

[@estradiolvalerate8925]

My nigga K2-SO

[@fionafiona1146]

Please do not send claims to the tax office for any loss of wages trough legal proceedings.

[@godgod156]

Why would love resist communal support?

[@dreamcatcherben8214]

Accurate

[@fun_ghoul]

@The Electric Prince Or the nations on whose land the so-called USA exists. I mean, when they acknowledge their existence at all.

[@guardingdark2860]

"You want a free hot dog? You wanna hold my gun?" America summed up in two sentences. I'm stunned that you've captured the quintessence of my country with such skill.

[@Hehe-nt4oe]

MERICA

[@disappointingperson9162]

It's spelled 'MURICA get it right

[@Deoxys911]

I don't know, I think a stranger holding their gun sounds a little too much like their guns being taken away for the average NRA member's liking.

[@JustAskMeTV101]

Is the quintessence that you're all using thinly veiled gay innuendo?

[@RobMacKendrick]

"I've only been here one day and I've already shot three people!" "Hey, congratulations! Two more and you get citizenship!" Due South.

[@AgentPedestrian]

I did also see in a swedish docu show a policeman in sweden quite literally just taking a woman's earnings during an arrest and having to be told by the crew that he's not allowed to do that and sheepishly giving it back... that's a yikes from me chief.

[@fun_ghoul]

Pigs are pigs, no matter how many march in (corporate) Pride parades in uniform.

[@SeanLaMontagne]

That sounds very interesting. Where could I find this?

[@AgentPedestrian]

@@SeanLaMontagne I honestly cannot recall the name of the show or when it aired. Might've been the Stockholm police reality TV show that aired on... was it TV4?? Years ago now.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

Muh humanitarian superpower

[@doccanigetsomecandy7809]

Do you have take off earnings or not?

[@ContraPoints]

wtf I love skillshare now

[@tacob0]

You should share some video making skills on there. You are great!

[@Leo-pw3kf]

kween

[@fr0ggi3princ3]

ContraPoints Hey mommy UwU ✨💖

[@ElloLoJo]

My thoughts exactly also iloveyou

[@sasmitrahman2524]

Yes mommy

[@draxiss1577]

I mean, it's not shirtless Ollie holding snakes, but I'll take it.

[@josie955]

He's in handcuffs tho 😍

[@unknownusername5111]

The bar was set too high

[@wohdinhel]

it’s all downhill from there

[@mangoblaze]

oddly, I like him better in a suit ^-^; maybe that's just me

[@irisgarner5274]

@@mangoblaze Agreed. I mean, variety is the spice of life, and seeing him in this getup is just as delicious, it's just delicious in a different way. :DD

[@rekagaal]

"Like an IKEA cabinet, it seems sturdy at first, but there's a suspicious number of pieces left over." This is truly a great line. Whoever came up with it should be proud of themself.

[@silversunastrology]

In the US, police officers follow strippers home after work. It has happened to some of my friends and I. They will look for dumb reasons to stop your vehicle... like you didn't stop "for long enough" at the sign. They will ask questions about where you live and what you are doing later, ask for your phone number, etc. It is scary.

[@ipadair7345]

@Christopher Grant *ALL COPS ARE BASTARDS*

[@dc9067]

All Cops Are Pigs. 🐽

[@ouwebrood497]

The police involved with this type of crimes attrackts a certain kind of creeps.

[@konyvnyelv.]

It's gross 🤢

[@MideoKuze]

I love it when Skillshare advertises over explicitly anticapitalist content

[@starvalkyrie]

It's almost like instead of being little bitch boys about everything, They recognize that all advertising is just carpet bomb exposure, so rather than try and make your venues overtly fake drones, just let them do what brings in the eyeballs and throw you a mention.

[@adrianfrancomatesanzabeiro5623]

how it's treating bodys as merchandising not capitalist? this has to be the dubmest thing i read so far. Also is funny that he brings to the video a so called expert who complains about "white women celebrities" when she is a white european priviliged women as well.

[@adrianfrancomatesanzabeiro5623]

@@greengandalf9116 yup that's what libearls are all about

[@OlPalJoe]

@@adrianfrancomatesanzabeiro5623 Well, the point he makes all through the video is that sex work should not be criminalized. That would apply to the current capitalist structure as well as a hypothetical socialist one. Her point about white celebrities, was that they aren't single boosting decriminalization of sex work. I don't really see why her being privileged stops her from criticizing other privileged people.

[@OlPalJoe]

@@manulopez6844 I agree. And that's good!

[@gvasari]

For those who don't drink: the cocktail Olly makes before part 4 is a passionfruit martini, often called a Pornstar Martini.

[@mduckernz]

Nice, that's great attention to detail on Olly's part heh

[@Dorian_sapiens]

Thanks! I was going to look it up, but you've saved me the trouble.

[@technopoptart]

thanks for letting us teetotalers know XD

[@andrewhermit9098]

Is it supposed to look so horrible?

[@gvasari]

@Andrew Hermit -- it's one of my favourite cocktails, personally, but everybody has different tastes. :)

[@Axius27]

I used to be very against sex work, but as I learnt more about myself I realised that my issues with it were all coming from me. I didn't know that I was asexual at the time, so my repulsion towards sex in general was getting all tangled up in my feelings, and once I stripped out the emotional aspect and confronted my internal logic, I found that it wasn't the job itself that I didn't like, but the exploitative nature of financial pressure. And when you start down that rabbit hole, you start seeing that all work is just as bad and all my issues weren't confined to just sex work but capitalism as a whole, fundamentally pushing my world view far farther to the left than I would have ever thought possible. Tl;dr I went in anti-sex work, and came out anti-capitalist and VERY anti-work :P

[@Axius27]

Honestly, if prostitution is so important to these politicians that they'd risk a corruption scandal, then they should just nationalise the industry and make all the illicit payments above board

[@naluzoniro]

@@Axius27 They want to stay in a position of priviledge, where things like prostitution and drugs are iLlEgAl for MoRaL rEaSoNs fot the general public, and they (politicians and rich people) get to indulge as much as they want (or something like that)

[@Axius27]

@@naluzoniro If all they want is to feel superior, all they have to do is install a brothel in Capital Hill that only government representatives can visit. They get their exclusive superiority, sex workers get some rights, the Prayer Room scandal can never happen again, the only downside is losing the extremist vote.

[@MollyMeyer-tn1vn]

Yesssss i always saw im very pro-sex but also very anti-work😂 you worded this perfectly

[@Axius27]

@@MollyMeyer-tn1vn Look, if you're going to use money to coerce physical and emotional labour out of people, you should at the very least pay a living wage and provide healthcare. All work, and especially sex work, should be done by people who want to do it, either because they enjoy it or find the terms of employment agreeable, not because they've been threatened with starvation otherwise.

[@epicjoyfulcreations4580]

2:12 Okay but I totally want a gay sex license. Like imagine being able to carry that around in my wallet? How would I even get certified for that?

[@fun_ghoul]

Form 69, $12, it -comes- is delivered in 6-8 weeks.

[@fruitygarlic3601]

Do I need lessons before I take my tribber's test?

[@q.s.9810]

Ultimate flex

[@nekoest]

$20 is $20.

[@XXXXX90651]

This is why y'all will never get your "equality" lol

[@LilPinkFuzzyMonster]

The unique thing about the New Zealand decriminalisation is that they actually talked to sex workers and asked what THEY wanted, instead of political powers deciding what was best for them.

[@mduckernz]

Yup, it is standard practice here fortunately. When we commission a Select Committee with the task of advising on law changes to tackle a specific issue - say, sex work - it is always open to the public to make submissions. These are usually written, but where the person feels that they are particularly competent and/or personally invested in the result, they are both allowed to and are encouraged to make an interactive verbal submission, where the committee members can ask questions back as necessary for clarification, or to further expand on aspects of their submission. Usually this is done via video conferencing, so the person need not travel. I remember the process of the committee for the sex work law changes being particularly long and involved. But it was worth it! They intentionally sought out input from the sex workers - as it should have been, and was. They are, after all, the most directly affected party - along with the clientele of course (whose input was also sought after). There was tremendous opposition to it from various religious groups, inevitable predictions that society would surely collapse (lol), and the like, and it very nearly didn't pass once the legislation was written following the committee's recommendations due to opposition from conservative MPs, but pass it did. Even they now have admitted that it was the right decision, and pretty much everyone is better off for it having done so. Some of the religious people are still sore about it, but fortunately religion does not have very much involvement with politics here (it is considered to be inappropriate to bring it up, and especially to use as justification).

[@mrhombreman]

Just like they did in sweden before implementing the nordic model. The social services collected tons testimonys which made up the foundation for the legislative changes 👍

[@sharkjack]

@@mrhombreman except the people implementing it did so with the explicit purpose of eradicating sex work, and sex workers lives becoming more dangerous was an active component of that eradication.

[@SunflowerSocialist]

What? You can do that? You can ask workers what they want?

[@user-yn3zg5hm8p]

@@sharkjack ط

[@AmandaDavis6130]

“Have to pretend they are enjoying the work” reminds me of retail. “The supplier being viewed as a commodity and less than human” ALSO reminds me of retail. While the level of intimacy is obviously vastly different, there’s a certain mindset that seems familiar. 😬

[@fionafiona1146]

@erni muja terrible people getting to be awful to you with no recourse is a issue. Even with my retail voice (baby speak for boomers) I get told it's impossible that things cost prices, I don't set and pressured to change them (I can't), offering to take an item off their purchase usually ends in screaming, I am supposed to end on my own without any guidance or permission to use anything but my indoor voice.

[@fionafiona1146]

@erni muja In private, my solution would be to remove my self from the situation (or the other person, depending on the location/legal circumstances). In business there is a argument to be made to either bill people for bogus claims or (review their purchase behavior vs staff hours) and again remove them or have special staff to appease Wales (much cheaper than recruiting minimum wage work, even digitaly) Obviously there are currently (false?) assumptions about proper attitude and I certainly comply with those, my continuing livelihood is based but often prefer to interact in evidence/research based ways (that might not be known without the social since (Cultural Anthropologie) assigned reading /seminar discussion).

[@fionafiona1146]

@erni muja and good business need to be keeping people coming by for 50ct items 3 times a month and then keep staff occupied /upset for 4 billable hours (one reason I am glad not to be paid by other metrics!)? It's not my place to act upon it nor to write policy but its not something I want to do and significantly contributes to my work experience.

[@jaynestrange]

Both of my retail jobs have had times where I was being shouted at by strangers about problems that were actually their fault & I had no control over, but they somehow expected me to fix. And I'm not even allowed to say "please stop shouting at me".

[@AmandaDavis6130]

erni muja More like I get yelled at for not smiling enough when I’m tired, or not giving bigger free samples, or not giving a discount we don’t have.

[@QuikVidGuy]

"Homelessness has not yet been eradicated-" "No, it hasn't. We should do-" "by abolishing landlords." "Ah, yes."

[@cremetangerine82]

Landlords are home pimps, to be honest.

[@thefrank446]

Yes, how dare people own things!!!

[@benschmitt7035]

@@thefrank446 its not the fact that they own things, but rather that they own one of the absolutely necessary commidities in shelter, and can raise rent at will, leaving those struggling to either give more money they dont have or go homeless. Landlords are absolute leeches of the economy, providing literally 0 labour while taking the money of those who do.

[@sp4c1ng_0ut8]

@@thefrank446 Owning property isn't the _main_ problem. They are just gaining money from hold hostage one of the most important resources. It's like the bottled water industry. Stupid and useless, and contributing nothing to society but an unnecessary middle man in the conquest for necessities. (I have no idea why my writing got all poetry-ish at the end, please ignore that)

[@thefrank446]

@@sp4c1ng_0ut8 So what's your solution? Should it be illegal to lend a space in a building you own for money? Should it be illegal to own more than 1 house? Anything you offer is bound to be completely absurd and almost definitely will involve Government interference which means everyone loses, except for the Govt.

[@cericat]

One of the things neither of you mentioned was the reality that SW are often completely locked out of financial services too, even here in Australia where sex work is largely legal banks can just shutdown your account. It's a complaint I've heard a lot from SW online from around the world. It's an added hurdle in their lives that compounds so many of the other difficulties they have. And traveling internationally is a bad joke if you've ever worked, or might be thought to be intending to work, as a SW even when one or both ends the work is legal. Loving your work Abi, thanks for getting this out to more people.

[@fun_ghoul]

A salient point, for sure. Thanks for bringing it up.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

@@fun_ghoul I always wanna ask those that go to far in anting to protect sexworkers and wanna legalize the objecitvely-not-normal-work Job of Sexwork: How about you, the one with the extraordinary claim and therefore the burden of proof, explain why in the world a known social problem that is objectively not work but an issues, is ‚just another job, so who cares’? Or is it because thats impossible to explain cause it is hilariously nonsensical? You lot trying to deflect the burdne of proof is epic, but lets return to reality anyway and remember: sexworkers dont deserve stigma, yeah, but sexwork itself deserves it all and should never be legalized even if so much consent is present that all the consent starts generating its own gravity!

[@loturzelrestaurant]

I cant believe many try to normalize Sework or dont see that it shouldnt exist. I can understand why Many cling to flawed Systems like Capitalism, but this? I understand of course that hating the Workers is unhelpful and either way denying them Healthcare is bad, but fact remains that this is blatantly the Wrong direction for things to go. This Job needs to stop existing. Stigma CAN exist for a reason, let's ot forget such a Basic fact. Some here seem to legit not know how Consent work and treat it as some ‚magical force’. No kidding, that’s the feeling i sometimes get form people who think if everythings consensual, NOTHING and literally NOTHING can be wrong with a Situation. Even if you have never heard of the word In-est before, this is; lets face it; a pretty silly claim.

[@fun_ghoul]

@@loturzelrestaurant You literally started with lies about me, idiot. Goodbye.

[@cericat]

@@loturzelrestaurant Take your bullshit elsewhere, I'd recommend the landfill.

[@morganj426]

You know, I usually come into your videos already agreeing with every single point you've making, but I had never considered: -sex work as a labor issue -the differences between decriminalization & legalization -how anti-pimp & anti-trafficking legislation directly targets other sex workers -overall, the lack of self-determination in most mainstream models and this video has really opened my mind to a lot of those issues & changed how i think about sex workers rights as a whole. Thank you so, so much for making this!

[@elenapopovic6261]

Yeah his video is amazing! I started following sex workers who talk about sex work as labour and their struggle as a labor rights struggle and it blew my mind too. There's so much we can learn by actually just listening to marginalized people instead of assuming we know how to help them.

[@TheMorganVEVO]

Elena Popovic EXACTLY!! 👏🏾

[@elenapopovic6261]

@@TheMorganVEVO I mean it's actually common sense if you think about it. Would I want someone making decisions for me without consulting Me? By, what, guessing how I feel? Off course not, so I would want to treat everyone else like I would want to be treated. Reciprocity is actually such a simple, but effective frame of thinking.

[@silvertamagachi]

One thing I love about Olly and other leftubers' videos is how carefully and patiently they deconstruct the arguments against something until you're forced to reconcile that . . . yeah, the only reason I don't like this is that it makes me uncomfortable. And then you're left to deal with why that is. (Natalie is especially good at this as well.) At its worst, it always feels like having little bits of armor stripped away. I'm honestly not at all surprised by the negative reactions to these kinds of videos, because it's hard not to get defensive when being confronted with the reality that the facts don't align with your feelings. I had that response a bit to this video, because it turns out SW makes me more uncomfy than I thought, and the idea of just wanting people to disappear is . . . awful, but also kind of apt. (Sorry that got on a weird little tangent about my own feelings there, but the TL;DR is that Olly is damn good at his job.)

[@elenapopovic6261]

@@silvertamagachi no I'm glad you said it. You articulated it much better than I did. I've had some painful self examination moments Too, most of all with sex work. But if were not willing to confront the hurt, how can we get better?

[@yojelle1]

I’m 100% convinced that Olly and Natalie have a raiders of the lost ark style warehouse somewhere full of costumes.

[@werewolf4358]

I wonder if they share makeup tips...

[@DoragonShinzui]

"Don't worry, it's being looked after by top men. And top women. And top those who liest betwixt."

[@holodxck]

@@werewolf4358 I think they do. I remember seeing some kind of thanks to Natalie for the makeup in the Hedonism vid.

[@kyleg3588]

@@werewolf4358 He got tips from her on his nails (and his bedroom lights) at least. He talks about her in some of his live streams

[@mikecunningham4682]

@@DoragonShinzui "top those who lie betwixt" 😏😏😏

[@carysbrown3054]

I feel the whole argument about sex work reducing women to sexual objects is true to an extent but doesn't tell the whole story. FIrstly- in a way yes buying sexual services does reduce a sex worker to being the provider of sex- but isn't that what all service-based jobs do? When I worked my bartending shifts, serving drinks did become my function, and therefore my entire identity, at least in the customer's eyes. Of course in many ways, sex can be more complicated than that but is still a paid service involving customers. Secondly, I feel this indicates one of the main problems with the mainstream, "girl boss" feminism- its made about female empowerment sue to female success- women are valuable because they can be lawyers, CEOs, politicians etc just like men, when I feel feminism should simply be based around seeing women as equal human beings full stop. Sex workers are people with lives just as complicated as everyone else, and should, therefore, be treated by society and the legal system as such.

[@jebe5914]

There is just a big difference between what should be and what is. Of course woman should have the right to engage in sex work if they choose to without being shunned by society. But sex work is not comparable to service work. You give someone access to your body & open yourself up for possible violation. That is not something you have to do in other service work. I have worked several service jobs & some costumers are frightening enough without having ever touched me. I really think comparing the too is so dismissive of the issues that arise in sex work. You give your body away - you open yourself to psychological damage. It's really not comparable to service work. Even if you don't believe in the psychological effects sex has, why is it, that in any service work, the service worker is the one leading the action, while in sex work its the other way around? There's a reason most people wouldn't do sex work, but have no issue doing any kind of service work & it's not because of stigma.

[@nodmyhead6198]

@@jebe5914 This is not correct. There are plenty of professions where your body suffers(manual labor) and there's plenty of jobs where your wellbeing depends on another person.(first example that came to mind were acrobats relaying on eachother to be caught mid-air.) Also, looking at sex as a process where you give yourself up to someone reinforces the incorrect idea that you have no agency durring sex. This is dangerous because it denies the concept of consent. Yes, you could lose control if the client decides to rape you, but the acrobat can also not catch you and you fall to your death.

[@carysbrown3054]

@@jebe5914 I understand what you're saying, and am absolutely not saying sex work is wholly similar as working in a bar or as a waitress etc. However, they are both defined as service jobs as they involve a person providing a direct service to another person. The point that I'm making is that being a sex worker doesn't mean your humanity is reduced into being a sexual object, it just means that you sell sexual services for a living. Of course the sex industry is significantly more dangerous to work in than other industries, but as the video points out, sex workers are in no way protected by us viewing the issue as totally morally black and white. Ultimately, the best way to try to ensure the safety of sex workers begins with recognising their work as a valid way to earn money, in the same way that we view other jobs. Once this has been fully achieved, perhaps they can begin to receive further labour protections that people in other jobs have access to.

[@fun_ghoul]

@@carysbrown3054 _"Of course the sex industry is significantly more dangerous to work in than other industries..."_ [citation needed]

[@Jekyllstein_Gray]

You're goddamn right.

[@maverick_monkey]

This video is so gracefully composed that it posseses the rare and important ability of politely making people rethink their beliefs.

[@chickenbone7418]

I'm a young teen girl who was used by a man for his own sexual pleasure. It made me realize how bad the issue of sexual assault is. I remeber maybe 1-2 years before it happened venting to my friend about how I was scared because of how the the rate of sexual assault was, I was worried I was going to become a victim. He told me that it'll be fine and I shouldn't worry, but it happened the summer when I 13. I don't want anyone to go through it, but it helped me become who I am, and make me more careful around any man or woman. The worst part about it is that it gave me a fear of men and I've been trying to get through it considering I want to go into a stem field. When I meet somebody I'm aware of their pshyical strength and if they could over power and use me like my abuser would. I've been working out to get stronger, so instead of being powerless and weak I can stand up and fight back. I just want people to realize that anyone can abuse and that if a girl or a boy are standing up to a man or woman for touching them or for the man or woman to ask for sexual favors that we listen. Most of the time it goes unreported or just tossed away because it was a kid and their teacher, or family friend, or parents, but if 13 year old me had known that I should've stood up and that I'd known that I'd be listened to, then I would've and that man would be behind bars right now.

[@chickenbone7418]

@@Violent4rain thanks, it's been a plan but I still haven't told my parents, so I'm not sure if I'll get therapy anytime soon.

[@ojberrettaberretta5314]

last year 18'000 british girls have been raped ...the grooming gang report...is still not public....no one protests this in the uk the only ones who even talk about it are being called nazis for simply wanting to talk about it (even blacks and sikh people are being called nazis)most perpetrators ar from the same region and religion thats why they try not to talka bout it.......so theres powers in structure and media who do not want to talk about it because the perps are from a certain religion and region of this world......

[@flamingotoaster1220]

@@jennali9800 stfu

[@Jekyllstein_Gray]

Jesus Christ that's horrible. I don't know if this makes you feel any better, but I've seen the psychological wounds of abuse like this get much better amongst my loved ones (I don't think they ever go away entirely, but I don't have that experience, at least not firsthand). Regardless, I hope we can have a world someday where no one has to go through what you went through.

[@TheShamansQuestion]

@@ojberrettaberretta5314 you're conflating a few things there. you've already accused an ethnic group (from the sounds of it) and that's a problem, but yes rape should be stopped.

[@masomamakes2004]

6:29 as a black man in America I must say the picture of "being arrested" in my head looks radically and alarmingly different from that lol.

[@kaitlyn__L]

The very English delivery mostly made me think of detective shows like Morse and Frost, and most ppl in the UK who never really dealt with police do have that image from those shows.. American cop shows are so different and more violent, and I can imagine how much they want to make themselves look good compared to reality there >.>

[@td3312]

In light of that, pretty fucked how naive a lot of privileged folks are, eh?

[@marblegray]

Yeah, just as an American the image looks similar to yours. I think the police are a bit more,,, forceful.

[@Pachitaro]

Same. There’s tons of cases where the people they take in die of “strange circumstances” and the cops get paid leave. This country is a fuck honestly

[@ArtIsLife12468]

I have never seen that happen lmao, I have watched most of my friends slammed against cars, pinned to the ground and walls, almost shot.

[@wilbur4379]

I’ve been studying international relations for years and something about it has never sat quite right to me. Conversations always inadvertently come back to the idea of the “state”. I have always struggled with this as a state is nothing without its people. This video, and in particular the statement; “decriminalise human movement” has resonated with me more then 3 years of studying ever has. Thank you for giving me a new way of thinking. This channel is genuinely awesome

[@dee8163]

I hope you don't mind a question in good faith! If we decriminalise human movement, isn't there are a chance that there will be large influx of people from third world countries to countries with better healthcare and infrastructure and more safety like say Sweden. Wouldn't it be the job of the govt of Sweden to regulate the inflow to be able to carefully run their country? Say fifty thousand more pour in. Do they get to vote in the next elections? if not, aren't they still being affected by policies so on a principle level shouldn't they get to vote? LIKE ITS SO CONFUSING. I want everyone to be safe but how would we do it?

[@wilbur4379]

@@dee8163 I think those are all really fair questions and concerns that you would not be alone in holding. I just want to preface once again, I am far from an expert in this topic, so what follows is just my own personal views. One of the most important books that I have read is one called ‘Imagined Communities’ by Benedict Anderson. It’s a study of national identity and endeavours to show just how flexible the very idea of national identity actual is. I unfortunately do not know that much about Swedish politics, so I will refrain from holding a specific opinion about that. But I believe that with a solid policy, countries have the capacity to absorb far more then we take I also believe that decriminalisation of movement would lead to a huge shift in foreign policy. A lot of the reasons that the global south remains under developed is because of policy’s created by the north. People generally do not want to leave their home. They are forced to, either for humanitarian or economic reasons. Both of these however are incredibly taxing. Imagine having to uproot your whole life, into a new culture that you hardly understood with a language you couldn’t speak. That is an experience that is not isolated to just the ‘developed world’. I think, from my research with refugees in Australia, that it is something of a myth that suddenly everyone would flood to different countries. People only generally do it if they have no other option To combat this, it should be up to the richer countries of the world to recognise that nothing exists in isolation. We all exist on the same planet and eventually the damages made to it will effect everyone deeply. If instead of having a world based on competition we tried to foster one built on mutual understanding, a lot of your worries would simply dissipate I know a lot of this is idealistic, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. I reject the ideas of realism completely. What is the point of being a rich country if we don’t have a world to live on. I find the political ideology espoused by people such as Murray Bookchin, David Graeber, Abullah Ocalan, to be incredibly convincing. A lot of the problems in the world come from interference in the affairs of other countries. The creation of artificial boarders in Africa and the Middle East have had consequences that are still echoing through the world. Maybe if we recognised this and started to direct our vast knowledge to rectifying these damages caused by these ideas, maybe we could create a world, not mared by violence but one where there is a sense of cooperation Again all of this can be seen to be idealistic, but without some level of ideal determination no social movement would have ever taken hold and we would still be working 16 hour shifts in factories! I personally believe that we need to stop seeing the world as something seperated into 192 different demarcated regions, but instead as one thing filled with different people who all deserve to have the ability to live a good life. Of course that ignores all the difficulties of achieving something like that, and also the difficulty of governments built by violence and war. Thats a much longer conversation then I can convey inside a KZbin comment

[@dee8163]

@@wilbur4379 Thank for replying in such a thoughtful way! The idea of an "imagined community" and a world without borders is pretty radical but makes sense? Especially if i relate whatever you said to my reality as well. I do feel attached to my nation and its history and culture but funnily enough its not a unique one at all. (now that i think of it) I share the same history with a lot of other neighbouring countries which were all one colonial state before independence. Now some of those countries are considered enemy states. (Imagined!) I understand what you mean by people not leaving in hoards unless they're desperate. I think there would be a rise in young adults moving to "better places" and then eventually returning to their families in their own countries. Its something that I've noticed happens quite often, even now, especially in Asian collectivist cultures where your ancestral home is of great emotional importance to you. Also (i'm sorry for this really long reply to your reply) this makes me think, if we did have open borders and every country had a large immigrant population, do you think a dominant language would arise out of these places? If Sweden gained a high population of immigrants from the middle east ("without any language tests" as Oliver mentioned) I bet Arabic would become more common and even show up in street signs? Maybe more than Swedish in some places? I think language would be a hot topic for a world transitioning into an open system. Love your idealism, by the way. I think more accepted/popular ideas like believing in a "true democracy" are incredibly idealistic too. But its great if you want an "open borders" future or anything else that seems idealistic because then in your day-to-day, you can still continue to advocate for solutions to issues that lead you closer to that future. With climate change, this might be our only hope. I mean for a lot of people the climate migration has already begun.

[@erinmcdonald7781]

@@dee8163 I wholeheartedly agree with you and WT. I couldn't say it better. I believe that these sort of ideals are what is pushing the growing progressive movement in the U.S., Bernie Sanders, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.... 💚🌎🍀✌️

[@Arcaryon]

A state is just a tool to facilitate human coexistence, however, it’s not abstract at all.

[@josiesparks5494]

There's a whole lot of people in the comments debating sex work without ever having asked a sex worker how we feel. Hi, I'm a sex worker, and I like my job. I am not exploited, I am doing this consensually and of my own free will. Thanks for making this video, Abigail.

[@josiesparks5494]

@@blaibender9060 If you want to ask me questions, I'm josiesparksyvr on twitter and you can DM me! :)

[@cristinasalazar9293]

@@josiesparks5494 You sound like you're Pro-Capitalism. All Workers are Exploited in a Capitalist society, regardless if they are Sex Workers or Non-Sex Workers. Under Capitalism, all Workers are robbed from their Surplus Labor Value.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@cristinasalazar9293 Yeah, get that communist shit out of there for now. Not relevant to this thread.

[@edithputhy4948]

good for you, sex workers shouldn't be criminalized, tricks should be though. Nordic model ftw!

[@fun_ghoul]

@@josiesparks5494 You are exploited, but not especially so. I'm glad you at least enjoy your work. Cheers from so-called Ottawa.

[@TristanBomber]

Interesting that anti-sex-worker "advocates" claim that the exchange of money nullifies sexual consent. Surely, then, the exchange of money would also nullify consent for all other forms of labor too, right? If you're going to claim that money nullifies consent, and you want to be logically consistent, then you must also oppose the entire structure of wage labor and capitalism.

[@fun_ghoul]

^THIS^

[@orestisconstantinou5707]

IKR, I mean there is no reason sex work should be illegal. Human trafficking would decrease, as it would be heavily monitored by the government and STI’s would not get spread (also government monitored meaning sex workers should have a renewable license of sorts as well as clients). I think opposers of sex work also view it from a personal or religious point of view. Personally I wouldn’t use it, but some people may, and if it’s between two consenting adults why stop them?

[@fun_ghoul]

@@orestisconstantinou5707 You have an inordinate amount of faith in "the government" to do the right thing, considering that's exactly who's doing the wrong thing to sex workers now.

[@orestisconstantinou5707]

@@fun_ghoul idk man I don't really like the government, but it can probably handle licences.

[@orestisconstantinou5707]

Paesan Control Centre no if it’s legalized there will be a law for it and a branch of the government will take care of it I mean it ain’t that difficult 😂. Although I believe in limited government if this is legalized, it needs some sort of health certificate. They can outsource it to private companies too idk.

[@elishagreymusic5006]

The part where you handed the two jokers and took the aces made me cry. I have never seen a more accurate visual of what it feels like to do something "legal" for your livelihood, only to have your home, your citizenship, your safety or your freedom taken away.

[@flamingotoaster1220]

@@nuuhishere6752 bro wtf is wrong with you. Let them express emotions, asshole

[@Minimellow]

I think this is also so true for any marginalized groups, period.

[@katethegoat7507]

i don't understand the visual metaphor please explain i'm dumb

[@arigadatred5395]

@@katethegoat7507 The gambling metaphor fits into the risks that sex work entails, and the dealer, aka the government, is simply making it harder for sex workers to play, instead of helping or empowering them, by taking away their options and advantages and replacing them with disadvantages, ensuring they can't win. The game is rigged against them.

[@mattjohnston2]

"homelessness has not yet been eradicated by abolishing landlords" As a former realtor, I approve this message.

[@Arcaryon]

I don’t mind normal land lords, I do mind speculating with housing prices & too much passive income. Like, when an area has a lot of demand, it gets pricier and pricier and while I see the logic, I think it harms development in a lot of areas because cities are not a luxury they are a necessity. Keep logistics nice and short, bring people together, all things many isolated cheap villages do not accomplish. What I DO mind is that passive income usually means that someone else works and after a certain point, there are people who literally contribute nothing to society but get all the benefits. I don’t mind wealth ( upwards of a private networth of 30 million, which is the 100000 after inflation from some time ago ) but it has to be earned to a certain degree because money is not infinite, it represents services or products and when too many people get too much for doing essentially nothing, societies get unstable and begin to show cracks. Like, when you are the boss of a company that renovates houses, that’s one thing. You pay employees, maintaining the houses and so on BUT there comes a point where you can pay someone to do all these things for you. And I dislike THAT point in time because it’s imo. when acceptable wealth transitions into problematic wealth. Like, a landlord in a former neighborhood of mine owns a certain big three party house, he renovated it and obviously, worked to get it to be financially profitable and that created a high cost. But this house needs basically 0% maintenance. He hardly visits, in fact, I saw him exactly ONCE in 7 years, I live in a big complex with dozens of different renters and these buildings just generate income without the commonly that owns them doing much, they employ literally ONE janitor for some 400 people. Who isn’t around half the time and gets paid too little. And good riddance if anything us wrong with the flats, they hire the cheapest companies they can find and it shows.

[@mansonandsatanrock]

I think one thing that plays a major role is the way Sex is seen in many places, like the U.K, and the U.S.A, Canada, etc. In a lot of places sex is still seen as something "dirty" or that's somehow shameful, especially in many of the religions that are popular in those places. As an atheist, and a Satanist, I know that sex and desire is just a natural part of being a human animal, and I have no hang ups about talking about sex, joking about sex, etc, etc, and I don't feel guilty about having "lustful" (natural) thoughts, etc. Getting rid of unnecessary guilt and shame around sex in general is important too.

[@fun_ghoul]

Indeed. Protestantism is poison for healthy sex lives.

[@Mattteus]

When she mentioned how hard it is to find a gynecologist, it really struck a nerve.

[@biggaydave5905]

Sounds like a gold mine IMO

[@Mattteus]

@@biggaydave5905 are you an OBGYN?

[@aronhromalic3785]

As a formerly politically active person living in Sweden, I can safely say that the manic obsession our political elite has with keeping our image as "the worlds most progressive country" intact, actively breeds conformism and stifles discourse.

[@WKitte]

Same happening in Finland - also a desperate act to copy Sweden and to be associated with its surface-level values ://

[@aronhromalic3785]

@@WKitte Rip. Hopefully your next generation will get angry enough to actively try ro change things, it's happening here at least. People always complain about boomers but gen-x-ers are pretty bad too.

[@fredericmari8871]

Aron, I don’t think it’s a matter of generations. By definition, most people are conservative (ie they find the status quo at least tolerable) and hypocritical and keep their thinking superficial (for most, there’s just too much going on in life). Thus, they acquiesce to the virtue signaling.

[@lachusity]

As far as I know the Swedish model is superior to any other prostitution policies. Sweden is definitely one of the most progressed states.

[@fredericmari8871]

lachusity I really don’t think the Swedes got the best policies regarding prostitution as you can see by just watching the video. However, yes, overall, the Nordic countries have the best mixed socio-economic model out there. I’d be interested to hear from Danes or Swedes about how they think their general socio-economic model could be improved, actually...

[@TheShamansQuestion]

"Just wanted to come out before tonight's show".... has a whole new meaning now. (Did you know, even then? This shot and the makeup are beautiful touches.)

[@CharalamposKoundourakis]

I'd say so, it's been very gradual.

[@ellenorbjornsdottir1166]

she clearly knew, them cheeks

[@rituparikh2255]

Anyways, all wage labor is exploitative, but as long as we are living under capitalism, sex workers deserve the right to live and work just like the rest of us.

[@asamanthinketh5944]

Yeah I am born give me money lol Sex work more like people who sell there bodies for carnal desires etc and yea they have right to live

[@elgado]

Serious problem with using this argument. Premise 1: All work under capitalism is coercive. Premise 2: Sex work is work. Premise 3: Sex under coercion is rape. ergo: Sex work is rape -- or, one of more of the premises is false.

[@asamanthinketh5944]

@@elgado yeah all 3 premises are wrong

[@ChestersonJack]

@@elgado Ah, you leave something out from premise 1 to the conclusion. “Sex work *under capitalism* is rape” is what I believe the final conclusion would logically be there.

[@elgado]

@@ChestersonJack That's well spotted, Chesterton: you're right. My argument is only applicable to capitalist societies.

[@jamezstribling]

Another thing about the " forced to pretend they like it" argument leaves out is the fact that most low wage/service workers hate their job but they're still expected to pretend they like it on a certain level. "Service with a smile", even tho you make minimum, get no benefits and are guaranteed no paid days off.

[@verager2493]

From what I can see, most problems people have with sex work are problems of capitalism, honed to a razor's edge. Bosses are pimps who take a suspiciously large cut and might abuse you, you get harassed by clients who you still have to be nice to, and the police are mostly there to make sure it stays that way.

[@TheGuindo]

@@verager2493 this is absolutely the case. if you take the arguments against sex work and swap out the specific services being sold for something neutral and mundane, like, say, cutting hair, the exact same arguments still apply but _suddenly_ it's not a problem anymore. end capitalism.

[@hazeld2018]

So because most jobs are jobs you dont work that makes it alright for sex workers to exist/ not like their jobs or clients? Is that a real "point" or argument??

[@hazeld2018]

@@verager2493 dont forget sexism, abuse, dehumanization, cohercing underage victims, giving sex workers diseases etc etc

[@kellyloganme]

Yes, and I think we should expect strong resistance and PR counterattack to this concept because if people start blurring the line between service positions and realize how much sex workers are paid for 'service attitude', that may become a legitimate *extra* value that employers can be required to pay for. Hmm...do you think if frustrated, moderately privileged white men realized that employers demanding they be 'nice' to customers is an attack on their freedoms and individuality, it might make for useful alliance? If they decide that their attitude should be their choice unless employers pay them enough extra to compensate...could we have that part of service mute clearly defined and abuse of it more clearly regulated? And as part of that erase a bit of the bright line drawn between sex and other workers?

[@seedfamily1404]

Recovering heroin addict here; I've suffered extreme trauma and abuse in the criminal justice system. Long story short, I was medically neglected, mocked, laughed at, and ended up paralyzed from the waist down while incarcerated (and going through severe heroin withdrawal) due to an abscess in my spine. Drug addiction and Sex work are two different issues (sometimes), but are united through the abuses and trauma dealt out by our broken criminal justice system. Decriminalization or legalization simply must happen to heal our society and make it more functional and fair. PS: Excellent work, Olly. Thank you.

[@WastingtimeInc]

Thank you for sharing, I hope you are now okay!

[@killerweasel]

A very underrepresented group that doesn't get the human respect it deserves. In my hometown, Addict were sent to a halfway house that used the broken 12 step program. You have to follow the rules of the house or be reported to court and sent to jail. The 12 step program was a NECESSITY, but one of the steps is to accept there is a God and admit you are powerless over him. (Yes, it specifies him) As an Atheist, I was legally required to admit there is a god or go to jail. When I tried to say something about this, I was told to deal with it. "If you don't believe in the Christian God, you can put whatever god you want. You HAVE to admit there is a Higher Power though, because you can't do this on your own. If you want to stay here, you have to follow the rules." What happened to separation of church and state? When did it get to the point that you have to announce there is a god or be sent to jail for something unrelated? It's ok though, they're just a worthless drug addict. Just to clarify, I was arrested for having one MDMA at around 15-16 years old.( Although they tried to charge me with Felony Methamphetamine possession) That might not seem like much, but its the thing that got to me the most morally, throughout the countless other things I went through in my road to recovery. Our justice system is taking away human rights, because they already criminalized something that should be a human right. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their bodies. There's no all encompassing laws for body modifications, piercing, or tattoos, which could all possibly cause long term damage. (not will, possibly could) We need to adjust as a society and have fresh eyes to look at what actually causes problems, and real solutions to them.

[@killerweasel]

Sorry, I feel like I was taking the view away from criminalized sex work, but I also feel like they are united in the trauma they feel as well as many other ways. Unfortunately they are usually spoken in the same sentence with equal disgust, and seen as symptoms of each other.(somehow each is blamed for the other) Let me just say people should be able to do what they please with their own bodies. Period.

[@KaceyRepublic]

@@killerweasel You took away nothing only added. If I may be presumptuous I'll say that most revolutionary communist groups(MLM) do their best to support addicts and victims of 'enthusiastic policing'.

[@VapeKidJr]

omg thank you for sharing this. Bless you comrade. (but not like in a religious way if thats not your jam)

[@cartoonhippie6610]

When I was in high school I was talking to a friend and I made the made the mildest point in the world, that people shouldn't go out of their way to be cruel to sex workers. She... disagreed with me. I was so shocked at the time I just didn't know what to say. Anyway, we aren't friends anymore. Edit: a piece of context that might be interesting is that we live in a city where human trafficking is actually a really big problem. Some of my other friends and I used to ... "joke" that the two main exports of our city were fentanyl and sex slaves.

[@thomasfplm]

I frequently hear people say that sex work is selling your body. And for over a decade I thought, is there any work you get paid, a work in witch you are not selling your body? Dancing ballet? Loading or unloading a truck with your arms? Performing a surgery with your hands? Playing piano with your fingers? Solving mathematical equations with your brain?

[@toasterboxchan9388]

Excellent point

[@andrewphilos]

It makes more sense if you mentally replace "body" with "soul" or "virtue." Sex work is (somehow) magically different from other types of labor because of an outdated idea of what is "proper" for people (and especially women) to do with their sexual organs.

[@agstinacueva1673]

@@andrewphilos it only stigmatizes sex even more, people who want to criminalize sex work often shame people for what they consensually do in the bedroom as well, so you can't really win with them, either you are a victim of the patriarchy for enjoying it or you are a celibate who is according to them "protected from the patriarchy" (how i have no idea). They can't see that it just does not benefit or help women in general. I hate that they want to forcefully make women feel like victims for liking sex or doing sex work and I even feel like a victim unconsciously for it.

[@dIancaster]

Ah, I can clear this confusion. Prostitution is the only career where you are selling someone the freedom to do as they wish with your body, that is, you're selling them a given amount of time where you won't resist their advances (given conditions are met, like not outright harming the girl). Every job you discussed isn't just "letting someone do what they want with your brain/arms/skill", it demands your own active contribution rather than inaction of resistance.

[@dIancaster]

@@andrewphilos I would argue that the stigma around prostitution is not specific to sex work, rather, you are witnessing the sex work-flavor of a stigma around compromising your morals for money. Policing, political work, loan sharking or really any bank executives, lawyering, soldiering, lots of jobs get accused of selling their souls/virtue.

[@Vixielicious]

Former sex worker here. You did an excellent job of tackling this subject. Thank you so, so much.

[@DavidLindes]

[@Shrooblord]

+

[@twenty-fifth420]

I just checked your channel and you have a Melodies of Life song and I love it

[@camelopardalis84]

As someone who until right now understood "prostitute" as a less respectful, but definitely not disrespectful, synonym of "sex worker" (or at least "full service providers" - although that is a term I just learned as well) I would both like to ask as well as advise you to be patient with people who refer to full service providers as prostitutes. (And I am aware that I have no way of knowing whether you were a full service provider or not.) I don't know when I was made aware of the concept of sex work but I know that at age 12 (or maybe even 10 or )11 I didn't have anything against sex workers as people and I also wasn't the "hate the sin, not the sinner" kind of person. I just knew that people who had sex with other people for money existed and that this didn't mean that they were bad people or people who did bad things. So while there are people who use "prostitute" as a slur or think of sex work as something inherently bad that they refer to as "prostitution", there are also people who - like me in the past - care about the rights and safety of all kinds of sex workers.

[@LisaBeergutHolst]

@@twenty-fifth420 Just wondering, did you think she wasn't aware of the danger of her former occupation? Glad to see you safe, by the way. Hope you're doing wonderful and all that.

[@KingBobXVI]

"... or fix the world so we don't need to, ..." I'm down with this one, honestly. Let's structure society so no one _needs_ to get into sex work, but decriminalize it so that those who _want_ to are freely (and safely) able to. Bam, best of both worlds.

[@natesmodelsdoodles5403]

now that's brilliant.

[@memaymoo8088]

That's a great plan

[@fun_ghoul]

Way to ignore the need for such workers, clown. I'd say which kind I mean, but when I made the same comment last week, Pootoob Jimmy Hoffa'd it.

[@morgandax5590]

Basic income for the win!

[@fun_ghoul]

@@morgandax5590 You mean for the capitalists to win, right? Ouf.

[@justinyoung8212]

I've always been on the fence about this topic but you've 100% convinced me. We need to decriminalize sex work.

[@Arcaryon]

And then legalize it. The reason is that people use bad implementations of legalization as counter example against a good principle that is simply unbeatable when compared to simply decriminalized sex work. Like, taxation alone should be reason enough.

[@NingyoHimeDoll]

@@Arcaryon Curious how your biggest concern here seems to be whether sex workers might be making too much money (tax them!!!1!) instead of whether or not anyone who might want to/need to get into sex work would be able to do so as safely as those who are able to do so legally. Says a lot.

[@Arcaryon]

@@NingyoHimeDoll My biggest concern is that decriminalisation is a ridiculous argument. Adolescence is decriminalised. Aka. the state doesn’t care if you do it in nearly all cases. Or a much simpler example, having sex before marriage. Here western states absolutely don’t care as long as it happens within the regular legal framework. And then we have sex _work_ . What’s the best way to ensure that drugs like alcohol you want to allow are safe to use within reason in a society, are well regulated and that the customers are safe while the producers can enjoy all the benefits of being a regular part of society? _Legalization_ . There is no debate about this, there is no question about this. Why? Because the only argument against legalization is that it was implemented in a bad way. That’s literally it. There isn’t even an attempt at actually thinking through what it means if a billion dollar industry just disappears, there is however this incredibly naive idea that not controlling this entire massive business will magically fix its problems. How is it supposed to work? How is a sex worker going to pay their insurance? What happens when they get infected by a client? They sue? Against what? There will be no prove that they even met in this relation, nothing. And how exactly is not interfering with this business going to fix trafficking? You tell me, it’s the context in which I made this argument. I am simply tired of naive solutions for complex problems. Decriminalisation fixes simple social issues. Like women being allowed to wear short dresses. It doesn’t fix complex problems. Never has. We didn’t fix the conditions of factory workers by decriminalisation. We fixed them with legalization. Every single profession on this planet people do in a commercial context should be legalized. Every, single, one. There are no exceptions. Nada. And this profession would especially benefit. Imagine having restaurants without legalization. No standards for food safety, you can pay the employees basically nothing etc. just utter anarchy. So what did we do? Established rules everyone follows and enforce these rules. If we decide that we want to criminalise this kind of profession that would end up doing nothing. This also isn’t exactly harmful IF it’s well regulated both for the sellers and the buyers. So our options are to decriminalise it and just pray that it works out ( let me remind you of something: islands tend to have less crime, we could get into the exact reasons but the point is this, ”Legalization would mean the regulation of prostitution with laws regarding where, when, and how prostitution could take place. Decriminalization eliminates all laws and prohibits the state and law-enforcement officials from intervening in any prostitution-related activities or transactions, unless other laws apply.” “Widely presented as a more tolerant and pragmatic approach, the legalized model still criminalizes those sex workers who cannot or will not fulfill various bureaucratic responsibilities, and therefore retains some of the worst harms of criminalization. It disproportionately excludes sex workers who are already marginalized, like people who use drugs or who are undocumented. This makes their situation more precarious, and so reinforces the power of unscrupulous managers.” ( quotes from business insider ”sex worker explains the difference between legalizing and decriminalizing prostitution” Maxwell Tani Jun 10, 2015, 11:02 PM ) is beyond naive. Being tolerant of people who are undocumented is frankly just something I am against as a European for VERY good reasons as a matter of political principle ( illegal migration is ILLEGAL for good reasons and should stay that way for the foreseeable future without discussion ) and furthermore, people who use illegal drugs should get help but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t currently supporting a massive businesses of brutal cartels whose violent practices are often abhorrent that I won’t even discuss tolerance against them ( aka. yes, legalize drugs to take power away from this scum and and decriminalize addiction but don’t just be ridiculous and act like sex workers who aren’t even citizens should be treated like regular citizens, that’s just utter madness for the entire basis of organised western society with the official citizens as the literal fundamental basis of the entire election systems governing our lives ). Name a few good arguments for decriminalisation that you can not also have with good legalization.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

@@Arcaryon repealing the laws that make it illegal is enough. Once you start passing legalization, like the woman being interviewed said, you start running into brothel and pimp type situations with permitting, except now the pimps are capitalists who could afford the licenses. There's a similar problem in the Las Vegas area where prostitution was legalized. There are brothels where you go to buy the companionship, so the sex workers are now under the thumb of someone exploiting their labor. By just decriminalizing the act, you already provide a lot of protection for the sex worker. Not only from the laws discussed that don't explicitly harm sex workers, but just hit them anyway, but also open it up so that if a prostitute or escort is assaulted by a client or if a client refuses to pay for their services, they can take legal action. As it is now, it's up to sex workers networking with each other to create a kind of pseudo blacklist for bad clients, and unfortunately it's newer sex workers stuck with the clients who will stiff them (I ran into that more than once when I was new into sex work myself) As for your other questions.... decriminalized sex work will be up to more or less the same standards as anyone else running their own business. It's up to them to figure out their own insurance (god forbid the US act like a developed country and just offer universal healthcare) It's up to them to deal with injuries they incur on the job (STIs as you point out) You can see this with other industries already. Legalization of marijuana in certain states hasn't benefited the guy selling home grown weed on the corner. Now we have massive dispensaries that all look like Apple stores for some reason because some capitalist was able to get the permits needed to open up a shop and sell in bulk while those who had been selling on their own suffer, and if they want to sell it still, now they are the employee of someone else, who probably pays them less, and they have less control over the product they're selling. The exact same thing can and will happen with sex work. Working in pornography I was instructed to do many, many things I would never ever do with an escort client or in my personal life. But I did it. And I had to since the director held all the power. I might have already been on set for 6 hours, and if I didn't complete the scene as directed, I'd get sent home and wouldn't get paid for all the work I already did. Which means there has been content out there that negatively impacted me when people recognized me from that work and assumed I would do that in my personal life. Sex workers need the ability to set their own terms, which might even come down to things such as demanding condom usage. But if their pimp demands they have sex without one, then what? Sure they can quit, but now they can't work independently if they don't have the lisence, and have to find another pimp who might just demand the same thing or have other conditions the sex worker isn't prepared to follow.

[@Arcaryon]

@@anthonydelfino6171 Mate, no offence to you personally but you have no idea what legalisation means in practice ( and also in theory ). Without a license, you have about as much legal rights in a business transaction as a kid selling lemonade. Which means, in practice, almost none. If a client refuses to pay, without laws, there is not even a court case, not only you can not prove that there was any kind of _business_ ( in order to sue, there have to be laws, fun fact, legalisation = laws, _specific_ laws ) interaction but also because the laws needed for such an affair LITERALLY would not exist to make such a case and consequently no court in the entire country would even spend a minute on your case before rejecting it. You can loan a buddy 1000000$ and if he doesn’t pay you back and there law against that, as you consequential have no _legally binding_ contract, aka no law, no case, no court. That’s all decriminalisation does - it simply makes something not criminal. One last time: You can not sue someone for a decriminalised action. A decriminalised affair does not exist for the courts as in any issue related to this action apart from the most basic criminal charges, the state basically doesn’t apply any kind of _legislation_ , the latter is a fundamental part of entire basis of organised society as a decriminalised society, again, doesn’t care about the issue, it doesn’t deem it worthy of any kind of attention, in other words: without laws to codify them, you have no rights. Go to a law professor, ask him about this. Also, you idea about brothels is too limited. You literally say: look there is this one example I know of, every other possible outcome must also be bad. How about a unionised brothel, run as a coop? Why are you so unimaginative on this issue? And why have you never thought your own line of thoughts though? It feels a lot more like you just adopted someone else’s opinion without really thinking about it. Case in point: you mix in a very nice capitalism critique that’s actually valid ( still has nothing to do with legalisation, because laws are not a hive mind and everyone *E V E R Y O N E* can afford a two hundred dollar license, especially in the USA with its low taxes, and it probably would only run you 50$ ) - and at the same time entirely fail to understand that increased migrant prostitution would drive down the prices too because now, you could come to the US on a visitation visa and prostitute yourself, no questions asked. Also an effect of decriminalised prosecution. Do you really not get that the “they took our jobs” faction has a point even though it often sounds ridiculous? In prostitution, the client has the money. You want the money. He wants you. The director wants to pay you to screw someone else, the client wants to screw you. There is no difference in these two power dynamics. The difference is that you signed a bad contract with one of these examples and are now projecting your experience on any possible solution legalisation presents for the entire thing. What happens if there is a law demanding that all clients use condoms? What then? Then you could sue the pimp, ever thought about that? Also, pimps don’t exist because it’s an illegal business, they exist because murdering / hurting women when they are alone ( and some men ) is objectively easy and if you engage with potential perpetrators for a living, eventually your mate jacked jack wants a cut of the money because he ran out of podcasts and is tired of sitting around in your car. That’s why pimps exist in the first place. The origin of the nobility isn’t exploitation, it’s that the people needed trained warriors for protection against bandits, raiders etc. and it was eventually codified and got _out of hand_ . You can avoid these past mistakes and craft a better legislation. But crafting none? That would just be, and once again, don’t take this personally, stupid. Also, how would you do taxation? A kid who sells lemonade doesn’t pay taxes. Can you even imagine what would happen if prostitution became decriminalised but wasn’t taxed ( which you literally can not do without laws )? Think about it. I am sure you will get it.

[@thatcrystalpie]

Why does it sound like "rescuers" are trying to convince people that they aren't okay with what they're doing.

[@elitheothercomputerguy5436]

cause that's exactly what it is some real nosy ass people

[@MissPoplarLeaf]

Basically they're gaslighting the sex workers who say they aren't victims.

[@thepaganpersuasion2890]

Your magician's analogy reminded me strongly of a different subject - homelessness. Every political candidate in the UK (from parties on both sides of the spectrum) promises to 'tackle homelessness', but it always seems to be couched in language like 'we need to get the homeless *off our streets*' rather than 'we need to get them *into accommodation*'. Like you said, maybe it sounds less like they're trying to do what's best to help people who might be in need, and more like they're just trying to make them.... [disappear]

[@ahouyearno]

My solution is required renting. It'd be illegal to have a good home empty. Every 2 months listed rent drops by 10% until someone can afford it. If housing is a right, renting out is an obligation

[@friendstastegood]

@@ahouyearno sounds like a good idea but you have to make sure there aren't any loop holes that allow for conversion into office space or whatever. Especially if you want to combat the problem with investors buying up tons of property and artificially inflating prices in places like London.

[@CP-ll6qg]

I had the same thought. I live in coastal SoCal, the homelessness capital of the American West, where 75 percent of all homeless people (maybe more) are unsheltered (compared to 5-10 percent unsheltered in NYC). Everyone theoretically wants to tackle homelessness, but in practice, they just want the homeless out of their neighborhoods where they can't see them anymore. A massive tent city in Anaheim (home of Disneyland) was broken up a year or two back, and many people saw that as a "win" against homelessness. But those people are still here...they've just been "disappeared" to somewhere else.

[@Aldowyn]

fun stat: Here in Portland, last year 52% of arrests made by the Portland Police Bureau were of homeless people. Fifty two percent. A big chunk of those people are people with mental health problems or something of that nature; a few decades ago those people would have been permanently institutionalized. Now they're left to fend for themselves on the street, and if the state gets involved it's to incarcerate and criminalize them doing their best just to /exist/ in public space.

[@lachusity]

Thats why decriminalisation is dangerous, it removes the support for abused sexworkers to get out of the business. If its not a crime then, police doesnt care about it anymore.

[@goldensloth7]

i wish i could like this video a million times. I was only a sex worker for 4 years (had to quit due to the stigma and breakdowns of relatives) but i honestly never had a bad experience. people should be allowed to have sex with any consenting adult, and receiving payment shouldn't change that. many of my clients were people with extreme anxieties and social deficits; they were people who were not going to have the sex that their brains told them every day they should be having. i recently found out that my most frequent regular client died. i went to visit him in hospital after his first heart attack, i did his laundry and brought him edibles so he could sleep. he watched my cats for me when i was travelling with my boyfriend, and did my dishes! i didn't expect to cry so much about his death, but he was such a sweetheart. we performed valuable services for each other, but that wasn't all the relationship was.

[@goldensloth7]

that guy nursed his wife through the cancer that killed her. he was all alone. anyone who said him paying me for sex and hugs was wrong does NOT understand how humans work. no, i would not have done it free. no one would. that not the point; no one would be a waiter or a warehouse worker for free either.

[@fun_ghoul]

@@goldensloth7 Thanks so much for sharing your story, which is very humanizing. I've never bought or sold sex, but as someone with "extreme anxiety and social deficits" who's sworn off relationships because of the harm I cause -- or that I worry I _might_ cause -- to my partners, I can certainly empathize. Also, I wonder if you've also known sex workers who suffer in a similar way, thus choosing sex work because they can't hold a "real" job due to the above-mentioned illnesses. Cheers.

[@goldensloth7]

@@fun_ghoul Thank you! It seems like everyone hears the awful stories, and they are common. But there's many other experiences too!

[@TheCaptaineustass]

@@goldensloth7 and most of the awful stories come about because sex work is illegal or because of the stigma surrounding it. hmmmmmmmmm I think we found a circle.

[@judeizzabee9543]

@@goldensloth7 how did your boyfriend reacted to you being a worker in such field? I hope i am not offending you or anyone with the same job, I am just genuinely curious.

[@ijustdontcareanymore1022]

As someone who has engaged in different levels of sex work to this day, I honestly just need the money. It's not something I enjoyed. Except when I was a dancer. I did enjoy that.

[@fun_ghoul]

So you did it for the same reason I breathed mercury fulmonate (golf course), sliced off a fingertip (resto kitchen) or had second-degree burns covering my left arm (another resto)? So I guess sex work is real work. I mean, right?

[@picklechips1483]

I was a dancer for about 4 years until the money ran dry in my city. (Just an over abundance of girls and clubs paired with low cost/income clients) And I almost always hated it, I miss it when the money was good but a legitimate job is much better dancing when you make the same thing.

[@Jekyllstein_Gray]

That really sucks. I wish you didn't have to do that if you didn't want to.

[@XXXXX90651]

God hates whores lol

[@edithputhy4948]

@@fun_ghoul It's not though, it's inhumane and the Nordic Model should be applied everywhere. Legalizing prostitution turned Germany into a hotspot for human sex trafficking while Sweden is seeing great results with the Nordic Model, plus those countries have functioning security nets so nobody needs to prostitute themselves to put food on the table and a roof over their head, the government covers those basic needs.

[@alibushell6762]

I've just been randomly sent to this video on the channel from Abigail's coming out video - the first words of this video are "I just wanted to come out before the show begins and say...". The cosmic control room truly is in good charge of things.

[@TheMrMacintosh]

Holy shit, the entire video I thought the magic theme was neat but kind of a weird connection and then she said "We're just stuck in a tiny box" and it just clicked. People trying to make sex work or even just the negatives of sex work disappear, while actually stuffing sex workers in a tiny box. I have no clue how you went from videos in front of your bookcase to this level of fanstastical, stunning, brilliant theming and editing, all the while mainting the educational aspect, in such a short amount of time. It's almost like... Magic.

[@jedigecko06]

So say we all.

[@SomeoneBeginingWithI]

He got out of an abusive relationship (see Men Abuse and Trauma) and now he's flourishing.

[@lilacsmoon9067]

The most important counterpoint for the 'money exchange automatically nullifies consent', for me, is that it's important to acknowledge that conditional consent IS A THING that we recognize and accept in other parts of life. 'i'll come to the party but only if X is also there', or, even sexually, 'i'll do X thing if Y is also happening', like, 'i'll have sex with you but only if we use a condom.' recognizing conditional consent as valid is important not just because of the distinction you make in the video at 31:03, but also because it's disgustingly gaslighty to tell someone who has been raped before outside of sex work, or who maybe has been actually trafficked, that their consent is meaningless. people who have experienced rape AND sex trafficking AND consensual sex work AND sexual violence while doing sex work - they exist, they make up a significant size of sex workers, and they need and deserve to navigate the intricacies of these experiences carefully and with nuance, and they need and deserve for everyone who has no skin in this game to respect and honor these distinctions.

[@appended1]

Just wanted to say how glad I am that someone articulated this.

[@morgandax5590]

Hear hear! This is a seriously underrated comment.

[@BothHands1]

preach it 👏 👏 👏 louder for those in the back! everything has nuance. everything.

[@za4310]

The trouble with making eristics arguments is that if someone's really paying attention they aren't convincing. You need to abandon your ideological conclusions before you do your research and formulate your thoughts, or else you end up with overly convoluted and unconvincing arguments like "not all sex workers are female." I'm reminded of your own point about too much skepticism being like a whole meal of Cole slaw.

[@awkwardukulele6077]

@@za4310 what are you talking about here? did you respond to the wrong comment?

[@verinha0256]

Interesting creative decision for Abby to do her older videos in male drag. She's such a thoughtful storyteller!

[@brettsymons604]

Where I live, if someone calls an ambulance the ambulance ignores any crime or drugs and they almost never have a police escort. This ends up being much safer for paramedics, patience, those who call the ambulance, and society in general. The section on people being afraid to call the police in case of deportation or criminisation (or theft of wages) reminded me of this. Oh also our ambulances are free (or effectively so).

[@brettsymons604]

@Isa No. The opposite. They will be helped and the police won't be called. Of course there are exceptions. Normally to do with children being in danger or serious crimes. But an OD.... not really the polices business.

[@user-jz5vg8ib6k]

In my country, Greece, where prostitution is legal, 6 or 7 years ago, when some sex workers who were working on the street, meaning that they were not legal(the kind you called second tier) , allegedly were infected with hiv. Then the minister of health gave like 50 photos of them in the news, with the excuse of informing the people. The point that I am trying to make is that even if it is legal, the way cultures view this issue, is like theese women are inferior to us, and this is the main reason why the issue will remain for years(sorry for my English)

[@jacklandismusic]

Your English is actually quite good! And I think you’re absolutely right. The stigma is going to stick around for a while, and so are some of the dangers (STIs, for example). I don’t agree with the authorities’ choice to publicly show photos of some sex workers in the news. It’s a violation of privacy for sure, and it’s just sort of a gross thing to do. But I also get it, on some level. You’d like to believe that somebody with HIV or some other STI is going to stop doing sex work just out of common sense. But it’s hard to account for every possible scenario. What if there’s a mentally ill sex worker who decides they want to intentionally infect more people for their own pleasure? What if a sex worker doesn’t have any other marketable skills, and continues sex work because they don’t see another option? Thankfully, I think this problem is solvable with time, regulation, and common sense. The majority of sex workers *aren’t* going to continue sex work if they get a venereal disease, because they know it’s a bad idea. With regulations in place, those few who continue to sell sex while infected with a venereal disease will have a better chance of getting called out and apprehended. Technically, prostitution is a business. If I have a bad experience with a business, I have a platform to complain about it and/or sue. Same deal with sex work. If it becomes fully legal and decriminalized, it wouldn’t necessarily totally ruin a sex worker’s life to be spoken about as a sex worker. I could simply say, “I used this person’s service, and I had a bad experience.” It won’t be an issue who knows who’s a prostitute. And, with regulations and a visible industry in place (one that includes more than just the porn industry, like we have right now), there will be channels for infected folks to find other work. Can’t do full-service because you have HIV? Come be a cam girl, and you won’t have to put other people at risk. But you’ll still be doing a form of sex work, and it’ll still be effective. But as long as selling sex is illegal in the US and as long as sex and intimacy are stigmatized, this wouldn’t be as easy. There isn’t a network you can navigate to find different job options in the general field of sex work. Really, it’s a shame.

[@chiefpurrfect8389]

@@jacklandismusic I'm Greek and I actually remember that whole debacle from a few years back. What you said about a sex worker potentially continuing to sell sex even though they have an STD because they are not in their right mind reminded me of an interview that was sensationalized quite a bit at the time. A lot of these sex workers agreed to an interview, but one of them in particular was asked whether if she was aware that she had HIV at the time she provided services, to which she said yes. When she was asked whether if she thinks she has endangered other people's health, she replied "I don't care, my life is over". These interviews were used by various media as a way to paint in an unfavorable light if not the sex workers themselves, the sex industry; on one hand these workers were framed as villainous, immoral women who are a literal disease to our society. On the other, media that gravitated towards being more "nuanced" and "sympathetic" to these women painted them as pitiful victims of their circumstances with no agency whatsoever, taken advantage of by the "real" villains. Ultimately, even the ones trying to tackle the subject from a different perspective and sympathize with these women failed to do so with how the situation was handled- when you show such blatant disregard for one's privacy and dignity that you blast their personal info on national TV, you don't get to pretend to be sympathetic, and least of all nuanced. And that's where the issue becomes complicated again. How many of these women were truly victims of their circumstances and/or taken advantage of? The sex worker I mentioned clearly wasn't in a good place mentally. She didn't seem to want or tolerate the job, nor feel like she has any agency. I still remember how hauntingly devoid of life her voice sounded. And it's hard to say if and how much the sex work in itself had contributed to that. That being said, people looking to buy sex work should also be able to protect themselves somehow. Exposing the identities of these sex workers for an entire country to see is morally questionable and a band-aid solution to the problem at best though. If sex work was decriminalized and destigmatized, the sex industry would be much safer for both those who sell and those who buy sex work. Sex workers- when not forced into invisibility and subjected to social damnation- would more likely have the means and resources to stay physically and mentally healthy and safe and gain financial stability to exit the industry eventually if they so please. All this means providing accessible and better quality services for the buyers of sex work also. It's a win-win situation, so I think it's worth asking why something so simple isn't implemented, especially when we are dealing with different cultures. Olly and others in the comments are talking about Sweden’s obsession with upholding their self-imposed image of being a beacon of progress- even if it’s only on a superficial level and expense of certain groups of people- but speaking for my country, the culture-specific reasons are very different. I find that there are people who still hold very conservative (not necessarily in the political sense) values and beliefs about sex, and in extension sex work. It also doesn’t help that the Church still has a very notable presence, voice and influence, as well as insists in making their stance known on issues they have literally no business having a stance in, be it a political, economic or social issue. A lot of vitriol was aimed at the sex workers I talked about earlier, with the worst of it being people saying that they deserved to get HIV because they are “whores” and “sinners” and that their infected clients deserved it as well for keeping such licentious company. I’d say the average person isn’t hostile towards the idea of sex work though. I just see- for the lack of a better term- a certain level of emotional and intellectual immaturity regarding sex. A lot of the conversation around those sex workers was pure vitriol, yes, but for the most part it was scandalous, juicy, juvenile gossip. Many people were extremely amused at the expense of all the serious, well-respected family men who were suddenly running by the hundreds to get themselves checked for every STD under the sun. Needless to say, the majority of people either treated the issue like it’s the End Times for our society or not nearly seriously enough and no progress was made for sex workers and their industry whatsoever. And there are, as stated, those who think that sex work is inherently bad and/or demeaning to the sex workers and should be banned altogether. These hot takes remind me of the so-called “smart raids” some organizations do to stop human trafficking- since the two are often interconnected. They’ll send one of their own undercover to identify such places then swarm the place at an opportune moment, completely ignoring just how multifaceted these problems are and the domino effect they are causing. The people they “saved” have now literally no other alternative but to starve and once they bust a specific place and arrest the people behind it, another such establishment will take its place because there’s still demand for it. What they should be doing is identify the causes behind the demand for human trafficking and address them; because where there’s demand, supply will always find a way- if there's no demand, supply is pointless. We need to be asking why there are so many people in our “progressive” and “civilized” society who travel to 3rd world countries exclusively to buy sex work from adults and literal children under hardly any supervision. What has made so many of us so sexually violent, frustrated, starved and repressed? It’s similar for sex work. If you want sex work to always be a choice for the sex worker then address why people who want nothing to do with it feel like it’s their only choice, don’t try to take it away from those who actually WANT to sell sex. Maybe if the system gave the impoverished and marginalized more opportunities to get out of that situation they wouldn’t have to resort to sex work. We should address why there’s a large demand for sex work in the first place. Maybe some people feel socially isolated and incompetent, and they don’t know how to communicate with other people properly anymore. What’s causing all that? These are all very complex questions, but the right ones to ask in my opinion for anyone who truly cares about the betterment of the lives of sex workers. Banning sex work altogether is covering up the problem, not solving it. Anyway, these are my thoughts, sorry for any spelling errors etc.

[@fun_ghoul]

@@jacklandismusic "Common sense" is that people with HIV/AIDS need to support themselves like any other, you absolute fucking tool.

[@mcarts4722]

I remember when this issue surfaced, it even reached the news in Cyprus. I was a very young teen back then and the way sex work was portrayed really damaged my view of female sexuality as a teen

[@user-jz5vg8ib6k]

@@chiefpurrfect8389 you know that the court ruled that all of them had no intention nor to infect neither to cause any harm any of their customers, they were not guilty of any of those charges as the court said

[@TParis23]

"Decriminalize human movement" Thank you for raising the profile of this powerful phrase!

[@propatria9749]

Human movement isn't illegal though..

[@blablablair1]

Pro Patria the existence of borders implies this though. Human movement for most of history was not regulated until the rise of nation states, which gave us passports, creating a system where you either migrate legally or illegally, depending on whether the nation you live in determines that you have the “right” to move freely.

[@propatria9749]

@@blablablair1 Mass migration in the past meant genocide in almost every case. Nation states were simply tribes who were able to defend large territories against other tribes.

[@TheCrippledCreeper]

@@propatria9749 legal and decriminalized have different meanings

[@martinramirez21]

Migration decreases when living conditions in a country improve. Everyone forgets this. War and neoliberal free trade have continued perpetuating this situation.@@blablablair1

[@cmmusic4721]

As an American I can confirm people do say “you want a hot dog? You want to hold my gun?”

[@peach-o9308]

I already had so much respect and I didn't think it could rise even more. This was a really well-researched video, a lot of people actually have to do sex work at one point in their life and people need to understand that sex work will always be present. Destigmatizing it will help people not trying to ban it.

[@ZoeAlleyne]

As an ex SWer I had to pause this a lot because this is all so upsetting and frustrating and I'm glad to see people talking about it.

[@akireta472]

Great vid. I've been a rentboy (gay sex worker) for 20+ years and I agree with most of the points in this video. I don't mind being called a prostitute or whatever (why split hairs?) but I do get your point. I worked from an early age in order to get independence and pay for my lifestyle as well as to escape a rather abusive home-life. I live in Australia and worked on the street (as well as off the net etc.) and though me and my friends did get hassled by police and screwed over by other streeties as well as the occasional client it was easy to notice that we had it a lot better than the female and trans street workers. We generally seemed to get paid more and were less likely to be robbed, pimped, bashed etc. I was lucky in the sense that I had a good crew who looked out for me, which made a huge difference. Keep up the ace work and props to you for taking on topics like this with decent research and without being patronizing!

[@MilknPopcorn]

Very interesting! I'm Australian too (and non-binary AMAB as well as bisexual), and I was actually somewhat interested in getting into sex work. Would you be able to share any helpful information? I was personally interested in just making solo pornographic videos to start with, but was interested in possibly expanding to other areas at a later date. I should also note that I'm poor, unemployed, disabled, and autistic, as well as trying to make a living by making art of various mediums.

[@madnessends2477]

Oh shut the fuck up. You can be an ally to female and trans sex workers without throwing your fellow male sex workers under the bus and talking about easy they have it (lol). Thats a fucking insult to all of them who have been victimcs of assualt, abuse and explotation.

[@tristanbrown1215]

@@madnessends2477 He said it he had it easier compared to them....

[@posadistpossum]

@@madnessends2477 dude what

[@madnessends2477]

Tristan Brown correct, which is gross

[@LogicGated]

In med school we had a professionalism course where we learned principles of justice as it relates to healthcare. Those gynaecologists are an embarrassment to the medical fraternity.

[@nincigo9499]

Please leave the references longer on the screen-it is difficult to read them that fast or even catch the moment to pause the video (for example at 33:48) Thank you for quality content!

[@Saturn-gs6wl]

She puts all the links in the description!

[@Vontux]

There probably hasn't been much talk about sex work and labor rights because there is so little talk about labor rights in general anymore, unions need a boost.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

Unions need resurrection.

[@Ildskalli]

Yep, it's mostly "stupid lazy millennials want everything given to them SO LAZY!!!1!1", and with that level of "argument" being thrown around, it's impossible to have any sort of intellectual debate around work.

[@fionafiona1146]

Every 100 employees in German companies require the employer to pay 4h/month union work... it's not difficult but hardly applys to "independent contractors" (sex workers are registered as).

[@ichorveinss]

i live in the northeastern US. when i was in middle school i was a victim of an online child pornography ring in the daddy kink community (the reason i dont associate with anyone who even jokes about daddy kink, it makes me so uncomfortable) my mom found chat logs and the pictures i was forced to send and when i was 12 i was nearly put into juvy (or thats what i was told would happen)... for sending the pictures. i had cops come in and take my phone and laptop (which i never got back and never even got money to repurchase) and go through all of my things without my permission because most of my abusers lived overseas in england, there was no attempt to charge them with anything or locate them. i, on the other hand, was severely victim blamed, blamed a lot in general, and told that i might go to jail i know this is pretty dissimilar from most of whats talked about in the video, but i fully believe being arrested/being investigated by the police is a form of violence ps: new york joke was funny but its impossible to get a gun in any of new england tbh

[@EpicVideoMaster11]

What's daddy kink?

[@technopoptart]

@@EpicVideoMaster11 it's this really fucked up and widely practiced thing where someone refers to older male-presenting sexual partners as their father and act in a pandering manner not unlike a child. in more extreme versions they are treated as a real parent and their partner as a real child in a pseudo-incestuous manner and does sometimes involve borderline or underage persons. mommy kink is the same thing but with a woman(though the age of the 'mommy' can be a lot more varied) it's treated like a cute joke but there are a lot of actual child(under legal age) victims whose abusers are actual parents(and often though not always their own)

[@soapibubblesthestrange9972]

Fill@PieNo! TW: DISCUSSION OF KINK, PARTICULARLY DDLG AND MASTER/SUB DYNAMICS I wanna clarify some things if thats cool? Daddy and mummy kinks fall under what is known as cgl (Caregiver/little), ddlg (Daddy Dom, little girl) or mdlg (Mummy domme/little girl. Obviously the g can be switched to b for boy, or little for others). It’s a fetish where the Caregiver - the Daddy in this case - takes a dominant, parental type role over the submissive Little. The Caregiver will often set rules, punishments, bedtimes, etc, for the Little. In many cases the Little will ‘regress’ - basically adopting the mindset of someone younger than they actually are - during play, and may dress, act and speak much more childlike, for instance playing with plush toys (the ddlg community calls them ‘stuffies’), colouring in, talking with a lisp, and wearing more childish clothes, or even onesies. This childlike, cutesy aesthetic is sometimes used to groom young people, to convince them to participate in kink and sexual activity, which seems to be what happened to OP. TL;DR for this bit: not all age regression in relationships is kink or coercive, and while I still feel gross and squicky about the fetish, my experiences have helped me realise why it might appeal to people. This is possibly TMI, and I personally have a weird, almost fraught relationship with ddlg and age regression, but i thought another perspective on it could be useful. And with the topic, discussions of kink should be ok? I have been the victim of childhood sexual abuse (CSA) myself, and when I first encountered ddlg I was honestly repulsed by it. The idea of people fetishising the kind of incest and abuse i suffered was honestly horrific. It still is, in a lot of ways. But then I met my partner. I don’t call him Daddy, but I do call him Master. We are in a 24/7 Dom/sub relationship, and honestly he has helped me so much. I have severe PTSD, depression, anxiety, and a whole host of other issues, so I often find it difficult to look after myself properly. Having someone tell me what to do, helping looking after me and helping me put in place the boundaries I never learned has changed my life for the better. With him, I found myself feeling safer, and more able to be and express myself. Though I didn’t realise it at first, when i grew to trust him and feel safer, I started regressing. Its mostly a trauma thing for me, a result of my PTSD, but sometimes I just need to hold on to one of my plushies, or cling to my partner, or get tucked in and feel safe and loved. I was really ashamed of being so childish, and of regressing, because I had been so revolted by ddlg, and it terrified me that I might have anything in common with it, but I’ve realised regressing the way I do isn’t inherently sexual, nor is my partner’s involvement - even if I regress after sex. Its just something I need sometimes, to be vulnerable and cared for, and realising that; how happy and safe I felt cuddling into my partner in comfy pjs, or getting tucked in with a kiss when I was exhausted and needed a nap - I can kind of understand why someone would want that in a sexual dynamic. I don’t know if I articulated it well, but when I’m regressing I get this feeling of just wanting to be *good,* to be helpful and make my partner happy, to make him proud of me, and I can see how that, and the submissive dynamic, could translate to the bedroom. Still no idea why anyone would want to refer to their partner as Daddy though. I guess people would feel that with Master too, or stuff like Sir, but god, I cannot think of anything less appealing than thinking of my dad during sex.

[@artbysarf]

Soapibubbles The Strange maybe don’t take the opportunity to talk about how great your kink is to someone who was the victim of something similar. The fact that you were a victim of CSA too doesn’t excuse it. This isn’t the place.

[@Sarah-re7cg]

it sounds like your situation was treated horribly. Really horribly. Also, with all due respect I know you said you weren’t even asked if the police could go through your stuff, but that opens another huge conversation. You were 12. Should 12 year olds get the same privacy rights as adults? What about in situations like this?

[@WhateverIWantChannel]

Your videos are incredible The refinement you put into it, the costumes, the shooting, the editing, the research, the philosophical thinking... it all culminates into something really beautiful.

[@perchy22]

1) Thank you for clarifying "decriminalization"; I had been under the impression (for a long time) that it was something that was still on the books, but no longer enforced. 2) Thank you for doing your amazing work on this topic, really digging into it, putting words to vague ideas that I already had, and shedding light to where I hadn't yet seen.

[@fun_ghoul]

RE #1, your impression isn't mistaken per se. WRT weed, that's exactly what is has come to mean. Frankly, I don't like how the intelligentsia have allowed this dual meaning to fester for so long.

[@zclindy]

I know this may be nit-picking, but when you talked about "The perception that getting arrested is calm" in the beginning, I had no idea how one could imagine that. Maybe it's because I'm American, and maybe it's because of where in America I live, but the notion of getting arrested, either outside or inside, never crossed my mind as peaceful. As I know it, getting arrested is violent, traumatic, and never considered neutral. People who think it's a peaceful "please come with us" are incredibly privileged to not automatically know it's an ordeal.

[@blyanterpencils3156]

Zoe Lindgren Yeah I agree, I think that perception is shared by more people in the UK who’ve never been in trouble with the law because the police are seen as more friendly over here, partly because they normally aren’t armed.

[@zoeredadams]

I think in the uk there is definitely the idea of, as long as you dont resist, just being slapped in handcuffs and put in the back of a car by a nice man who treats you okay. Probably because uk police are generally seen as helpful and friendly by the general public

[@bboyauron]

Its cause thats how it is shown on TV. Most tv cop dramas, even when its a violent criminal, they knock on the door, and ask them to come in. It only gets violent when they try to run

[@xanadu6784]

Came to the comments precisely to see if this was said. I'm American, and even being a cis, straight, white, male, I imagine arrests as being pretty violent affairs. Unless it's a rare white collar crime where there is an arrest.

[@DeadlyYellow]

"You need to be *this* *rich* to not have the police kick in your door."

[@Rocketboy1313]

"You wanna free hotdog? You wanna hold my gun!?" I have heard worse pick up lines.

[@irisgarner5274]

Omg, right? xP "Well gosh, sure, I'd LOVE a free hotdog! n_n Shall I bring the cond....iments? :DD"

[@fun_ghoul]

I read this comment before seeing the video, and assumed these were utterances by clients trying to -skirt- sidestep the law.

[@dansweatman3333]

This is one of my favourite videos you have done, as most political KZbin videos tend to be within some sort of echo chamber. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, for example you could debunk a right-wing KZbin video using terms and ideas that leftists are all familiar with, but if a supporter of that channel watched the video, they likely wouldn't understand. This video goes beyond that, as, even though it is aimed at leftists, a lot of the people watching this (including myself) were neutral on the topic before, and easily persuaded by the arguments you talked about

[@fun_ghoul]

I mean, it's pretty cut and dried if you have a few brain cells and a shred of empathy. Sadly, this very comment section is proof that many (most?) people are not thusly blessed.

[@LindsayIsExcited]

Abigail you might find the disability rights issues inherent in sex work interesting. Aside from the fact it's the only work accessible to many of us, Australia is having an interesting legal issue come up. In states like NSW where sex work is decriminalized disabled people who cannot masturbate due to disability are able to access government subsidized sex work through the national disability insurance scheme (NDIS) to allow them to achieve sexual pleasure and release like everyone else. But in some states sex work is illegal so the federal scheme NDIS is in an interesting place where it is discriminating against people based on where they live which they are not allowed to do.

[@fun_ghoul]

That is interesting! I've always disagreed with fellow commies on the idea that SW would become unnecessary in socialism; there are many people for whom the "traditional model" cannot/will not work...and are they not otherwise deserving of sexual pleasure, intimacy and the feeling of being wanted? Moreover, will there not always be people -- especially women -- who want to help them? Sounds like a form of labour to me. Period.

[@harrybudgeiv349]

@@fun_ghoul Why would such debilitating disabilities be allowed in an ideal society?

[@fun_ghoul]

@@harrybudgeiv349 Go to hell with your Fuehrer.

[@andrewmaclaren1272]

@@harrybudgeiv349 Are you suggesting eugenics?

[@harrybudgeiv349]

@@andrewmaclaren1272 Are you saying eugenics as if that's supposed to be a bad word? You realize that forced eugenics is bad, yes? So then why do you say eugenics like all eugenics is forced eugenics? Or do you believe that people shouldn't be able to prevent their child from being born with debilitating disabilities? You want to force people to be born with disabilities?

[@LittleRaven101]

Jesus your production values are through the roof. Damn.

[@jamezstribling]

Little Raven except who ever recorded the narration at the beginning apparently never heard of room tone 😂

[@Xeridanus]

@Fox Unix Jehovah, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, God, Jeebus, Tom Cruise. Did I miss any?

[@emmakane6848]

@@Xeridanus You missed Allah and Yahweh that I know of.

[@moonsweater]

Right? It's been so cool seeing the production value on all his videos slowly climb over time.

[@joshuapray]

@@emmakane6848 YHWH is Yahweh. But bang on the mark about Allah.

[@Beery1962]

If getting paid for work implies a lack of consent, then all paid work is immoral. I actually think that's right.

[@wes4439]

+

[@YodasPapa]

-

[@deadlydimitarr]

yeah but there's a diff of doing a regular job and selling yourself for the pleasure of mostly men lol

[@YodasPapa]

Surely this only applies in the context of needing money to live - to cover the basics. What about cases where students sell sex to help fund tuition fees and such?

[@fake5570]

@@YodasPapa you could argue that one needs that degree that tuition provides in order for the chance to escape poverty, and even then it isn't guaranteed

[@amyreynolds7244]

I share this video with friends CONSTANTLY. I came in already a semi-convert but this really solidified things for me and helped me answer a lot of my own internal "but what about"s. Whenever the topic of sex work and decriminalization comes up I automatically plop this video down right in the center.

[@bp_21]

The editing and direction is perfect in this one! My favourite video. A friend introduced me to your channel recently, very grateful to her.

[@seelcudoom1]

"if you wouldent do it without pay then its not consensual" by that logic isent nearly all work slavery since i certainly wouldent be working retail if not for a paycheck

[@vlogo4371]

I mean, it is coercion to exploit someone's desire to not starve to death on the street to get them to use their body to make you money. There's a reason marxists talk about wage slavery

[@seelcudoom1]

@@vlogo4371 i mean ya but the solutiong to that is not to outlaw sex work but to improve there lives so thats not there only option, if there choice is between sex work and starvation removing sex work just means you starve them, adding more options means they can avoid it while it still being open to people that would genuinly enjoy that line of work

[@vvaveave]

that's a bold move to compare working in retail to being raped for money

[@seelcudoom1]

@@vvaveave please explain to me how an adult consenting to sex is rape

[@vvaveave]

@@seelcudoom1 but we just established that it's not consensual

[@TheBaconWizard]

FOSTA also means that without an online sales-point, sex workers have to put themselves at risk: instead of speaking to someone before meeting, and discussing terms, you have to approach or be approached by a stranger in a back-alley.

[@rainbowbee1383]

When Abbie talked about the beautiful image of arrest I wanted to laugh because I have seen so many arrests in my country(mostly political ones, which are very violent) and I know almost everything one has to do to lower the chance of getting hurt(a really high one bc Russian policemen are terrible). I’m just 16, what the hell

[@fun_ghoul]

What a crock of shit. Sell your fabulations elsewhere, "Memorial" troll.

[@martincotterill823]

The video is brilliant and sex workers need our support to gain decriminilastion. They pay taxes and should receive all the benifits, like everyone else. Including protection under the law and access to medical insurance and pensions and everything else we expect to have. Just one critic, your interviewee is Riley Reyes and she's earned a mention and a link in your description section.

[@helldad4689]

clicked out of morbid curiosity (when i saw the title come up in my recommended videos, and then saw a well dressed white dude doing a magic trick in the thumbnail, i thought "oh lord here we go"). was extremely pleasantly surprised. if you're poor, you probably have no idea how many of your women friends and family members are or have been sex workers. if you're rich, you definitely have no idea. this looks like a pretty accurate representation of their experiences (at least as far as i've been told). this is the best, and best produced, media piece about the realities of sex work that i've ever seen.

[@rebeccaw6367]

Hi Olly. I'm a transwoman from australia and often struggle watching content that includes transwomen as a topic, but more particularly sex as a topic. I've been binge watching your videos recently, and up until now I have skipped over any videos i figured would be triggering for my insecurities and past traumas. I decided to be brave on a study break just now and watch this video on sex work. I'm very glad I did, because i found it very informative, entertaining, and particularly sensitive. I probably won't ever have the best capacity to discuss sex or gender stuff, but thanks you and this video. I'm going to try to be more proactive in what media I watch, and try and work on not avoiding something just because the topic is trans or sex related. Thank you, lovely theatrical man. I'm in England at the end of the year and I'm going to try and make sure I see a performance of yours if it coincides with a production.

[@GDKLockout]

Well done on facing your anxieties. Keep taking small steps and confronting that monster, one day you will walk down mainstreet head held high, the haters wont be able to get in your head, and you will see the smiles from the rest of us. Also realise 99% of people just dont care.

[@ellenorbjornsdottir1166]

you have a sister in Abby now

[@esogh0sted451]

I'd also point out that alot of the violence featured in SW, is ONLY there because of the laws/lack of actual protection for the workers.

[@odd_adelelady9915]

Oh yeah sure, men abuse women bc of the laws. With a law change, misogyny would stop.

[@misaelcueva9348]

@@odd_adelelady9915 missed the point, what they are talking it's that when there's not law protecting sex workers, abusers/rapists can get away with abuse because if the woman reported, she might get arrested for doing sex work, the rapists can get away with abusing the woman, meanwhile, if sex work is de-criminalized and laws are applied to protect them, the police might be able to help and protect women doing sex work

[@odd_adelelady9915]

@@misaelcueva9348 i'm not missing the point, i'm intentionally highlighting that misogyny is why the activity is dangerous. Men view women as objects they can use and abuse because they can pay for access to them. They don't need to respct and value them as humans. More or less "protections" won't stop the misogyny and I don't need to support the institution of prostitution by asking for more protections. I oppose the entire thing.

[@edithputhy4948]

tell that to the sex trafficking victims in Germany which became Europe's human trafficking hotspot after legalizing prostitution

[@KD-ou2np]

@@odd_adelelady9915 I'm sorry you have chosen to view men that way. Like, jesus christ, I thought I could complain too much about bad behavior from men but I'm not worried about crossing the line into irrational man-hating and fear anymore because of you. You're the line. I can't believe I'm saying this but literally, not all men literally see women as toys to play with and abuse at all times. Yeah crazy right.

[@BelindaShort]

I've been a cammer for 17 years and I also stream, and I find the streaming art to be about the same amount of stress as the sex work. I've had so many friends go through the things that your guest was talking about, including losing their homes and children over the years, all from the stigma of it. We were brought on shows like Sally Jessy in the US and made fun of (in the guise of just wanting to "learn"). FOSTA/SESTA actively hurts the people it purports to want to help, especially considering that it was based around the concept that backpages was peddling trafficking of children. If that was true, what could have been stings have been pushed to the dark web.

[@Desi-qw9fc]

Liam Neeson’s character’s name in Taken is in fact Johnny O’Taken.

[@JackgarPrime]

Are you sure it's not Quan Chi?

[@nickc3657]

This made me cackle out loud

[@Matrim42]

It’s just John Taken

[@EmeraldMinnie]

That's an Ellis Island name. It was actually Johnny Disappeareo

[@kendomyers]

My father who was a cop and very right wing just yesterday supprised me whe he explained how an arrest is a kidnapping, so all cops must take it seriously and malicious or grossly negligent wrongful arrests can and should be cause for firing or criminal charges Now I hear PT discuss arrests as not morally neutral

[@gabrielsilbert1144]

Thank you for this! I went into this video believing the criticism you mentioned about it being unable to be consensual if it is for money, but you really changed my mind!

[@meerianu]

I am a public health student and I viewed sex work as dangerous due to the potential STDs. But you are right police violence and poverty are just as important if not more, if we are really concerned on the health of sex workers. Thank you!

[@fun_ghoul]

Do you view public health care as dangerous? How many nurses have died from COVID? Or being attacked by patients? Jabbed by contaminated sharps? Venous insufficiency from standing all day for years on end? Mental trauma from seeing hundreds of people die? Give it more thought, OK? Work is work, and it's all exploitative under capitalism. Period.

[@tamararoberson8060]

Sex workers in porn and escorting are really the only people who are tested regularly. Other people might go years and several partners and assume they are "clean" if they don't have an outbreak (and this includes clients). The public health argument under the Nazis and others who claimed their objection was not religious probably did carry over those religious objections. Condom use in porn is highly contentious though. Bosses argue consumers don't want it and fought worker protection laws to require it. Some independent talent also were opposed to making it a requirement for the same reason. HIV tests aren't rapid enough to actually prevent the spread and people do catch it, lose their job for having it, and even die. Stealthing or paying escorts to not use a condom is also a problem. It's easier for people not at the very bottom of the hierarchy to press the issue than those who are desperate. But that's true for survival sex work where money doesn't change hands, including under the guise of a relationship. The decriminalization of FSSW issue with regards to public health is comparable to abortion. Criminalizing it doesn't necessarily decrease demand. In the US, abortion was actually *more* common when it was illegal because other factors are more influential. People do argue that men might avoid buying sex because they're afraid of being caught in a sting operation but the demand doesn't appear to be very elastic (there's the argument that it might increase the risk of personal violence because the curious are frightened off and the rougher men are all that's left). But if abortion or escorting are only done in the shadows, there are many other risks that are not inherent. Decriminalization and reducing stigma should improve communication and thus public health efforts.

[@katherinemorelle7115]

I’m a former sex worker from Queensland Australia. It has a legalisation model. And while it’s certainly better than criminalisation, there are definite drawbacks. Under Qld legislation, I can either work in a legal brothel (licensed) with a requirement to get a new health certificate every 12 weeks, and must always use a barrier method, or I could work as a sole operator, either out of a hotel room or apartment, or go to the client wherever they may be. I can advertise my services in newspapers or online. However- I cannot hire a driver or security, unless I pay them a standard salary (not very useful considering how jobs aren’t standard 9-5), and if they are security, they must be licensed as such. I cannot have anyone answer my phone for me- as that’s regarded as an illegal brothel as soon as another person is involved. Sucks to be a deaf SW, I guess. I cannot go into a time share apartment with another SW, not could I use my own home if another person lives there with me. A sole operator earns more, as they don’t have to pay 50% in “rent” of the room, but it’s also much more difficult, and more dangerous. Decriminalisation is the way to go. Thanks for this awesome video, Olly, and thanks for your solidarity, it’s much appreciated!

[@cheryl5667]

Decriminalization Of the prostituted women and some men, yes? Meaning the nordic model? Certainly you would agree that the majority of those who are trafficked, pimped or without better options would prefer for there to be some consequence for their pimps?

[@katherinemorelle7115]

Shosh Hell no, not the Nordic model! Full decriminalisation. Of everyone- both the sex workers and the clients. The Nordic model only continues to oppress people. As was made extremely clear in this video.

[@katherinemorelle7115]

Shosh also, there’s a difference between trafficking and sex work. And when any part of sex work is criminalised, it only makes trafficking easier to do.

[@cheryl5667]

@@katherinemorelle7115 If sex work is work, rape is just unpaid labour. If sex work is work, it can be done for a family member. If sex work is work, girls can look to it as a dream job. If sex work is work, women can't be given social assistance when there are spaces to be filled in brothels.

[@cheryl5667]

@@katherinemorelle7115 among many other fucking debates and yes I have worked in the industry and johns will never respect you if that's what you're fighting for because you are a commodity to them

[@Ds0uza]

Ollie: Let's say that you live in Brazil... Me: WTF HE KNOWS

[@ragincajuntcg]

Huehuehue

[@MrRogerogerio]

It's like this internet video is a window, and he's talking to me through it!

[@carultch]

He doesn't necessarily mean you specifically, he just means a hypothetical person who lives in Brazil.

[@lisarox4221]

Brazil isn't for beginners

[@edgardmacena-ac4322]

@@carultch WTF, mate? It's just a joke. It's m funny to see it being used as an example while living here

[@chloevos7379]

Once again you manage too link very diverse ideas in one consistent speach :D That's what I love about your videos.

[@jacobgutierrez864]

You are honestly one of the best educational KZbinrs out there. Keep it up 👍

[@gwynethh9524]

This was genuinely so enlightening. For all the reasons you mentioned, sex work isn't something I see talked about often, even in feminist circles. Thank you for the video!

[@celinak5062]

I know, How To Mind Ya Bidness is one of the only other videos I've seen on this

[@demonprince3297]

If money takes away consent, then all labor is slavery and thus money must be abolished, not the workers, the work they do or their rights to do it on their own terms. Great video, great atmosphere and editing, thank you a million times Abby!

[@alexandriaorcld6365]

👏

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

And IMHO to say "money takes away consent" is a bit of a "wE LiVE iN a sOciEtY" kind of take. Money just represents exchange of labour between people, it's a token. Negotiating "I'll do this thing for you if you do this other one for me" isn't coercive, it's a basic social interaction. Economic systems can be exploitative not because of the existence of money itself, but because of power relationships. If you're a farmer, I'm buying food from you, but I also have the power to burn down your farm if I don't like you, then you'll be forced to sell the food at a discounted price if so I ask, because you have no choice. If there was no coercive power, you could set a fair price, and the exchange would benefit us both. I get to eat the food, you get money for it that won't rot (unlike excess carrots).

[@annarchie9949]

Hagane no Gijutsune: The problem with money is that it depersonalizes an exchange and makes it exactly quantifiable. And that leads to a situation where the two people doing the exchange are necessarily in a situation where that forces them to try to rip off a profit from each other. It can lead to mutual benefit, but that's a kind of accident, the competition ending in a draw, it's not the goal, like in an economy based on favors or some other "social currency". Also, more importantly, true consent would only be possible in an, at least to some extent, altruism-based society, where you can be sure to still have enough to live even if you don't agree to something. And that is at least extremely hard to have in a money-based economy, first pychologically, because it turns everyone into everyone else's potential enemy. And, more importantly, if it is exactly quantifiable how much you got, it is almost inevitable that this turns that from acts of solidarity to debts.

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

@@annarchie9949 I don't think any of that has anything to do with money being quantifiable. You can't have an efficient, complex economy without quantifying value somehow. But that doesn't mean losing all concepts of fairness or deciding that your solve objective is to screw the other side over. Sure, if everyone's baseline was guaranteed, so that at no point work would be a matter of life or death, just of how many additional luxuries you can afford on top of your basic needs, exploitation would be much less prominent. But quantifiability doesn't have to do with it. To just rely on your system to be fair only thanks to its vagueness seems doomed to failure to me. Do you think you can't be screwed over when bartering? You probably can be screwed over even more, if anything.

[@annarchie9949]

- You don't have to make a decision to screw others over, the system creates a situation whee this is the most logical thing to do. People can try to subvert that, to varying degrees, but my point was that doesn't change the fact that said system punishes moral behaviour and rewards amoral one. - An economy based on barter is indeed the same as one based on moey, except less effective. One based on favors is a completely different thing. In that you would dohings for others withot expecting an immediate reward, just because it improves your reputation and the positive feelings that others have for you - or your "social capital" - which will make them more likely to do you favors in the future. Humans have lived like this for the abolute majority of our existance. And though it might seem like a lifestyle that is only possible in small, close-knit comunities at a low technology level, the Spanish also managed to run a modrn, industrialized country with millions of inhabitants that way for several years. - A competition-based economy is not impossible bt extremely hard without an exact measurement of "value". And the competition-based economy is the main hindrance on the way to reaching the post-needs society, for which we already easily have the technology and ressources, because the competition in that area seeps out into all other areas of life and erodes our natural solidarity. And replaces it with the constant, undefined fear that shapes modern politics.

[@annaedwards6446]

You are so very dashing in this video Ollie. :) I really enjoyed your costuming theme and it’s interplay with the intellectual content. Well done (as usual) and thank you for all you do.

[@anjihs3701]

Just found your page after watching your old video about the friend zone, I’m loving you videos!! They make me feel smarter then I am.

[@John-vs8pw]

"I wasn't paying attention at the start of the video I usually put them on at 2x speed while i'm doing something else" I feel personally attacked.

[@Megabean]

I was a male escort for a long time in Canada before they instituted the nordic model. Before it was relatively safe to report and advertise but after that every week I would read in the paper of men being arrested for soliciting women. Now the people who work in the trade that I know do it further in the shadows and there's no recourse if they are mistreated or robbed which happens regularly now.

[@NaumRusomarov]

Sweden is full of disgusting shitty moralizers. They don't give a flying fuck about anything or anyone but their "morally upright laws", thus the Nordic model doesn't actually try to deal with the problems that people in the sex business encounter, it just wants those people to simply disappear -- out of sight is out of mind. At the same time, it pretends that the masses of white middle aged men who travel to other countries for sex don't exist, or that we don't have people who buy and sell sex. These laws have just pushed people in the sex business underground and made a taboo out of it. We all know it exists, it's all around us, and many trade in it and yet we pretend we don't see it.

[@xmlthegreat]

@@NaumRusomarov Yeah it's shocking how, inspite of being models for socialist democracies, the Nordic countries are very racist, and phobic towards certain kinds of things that are not within their quite narrow definition of morality.

[@eliananash9564]

hi abby, i’m currently binging all of your work and i wanted to thank you for this video. as a feminist on the left, i held the belief that sex work was harmful for women, and i thought the nordic model was ideal. after watching this video and hearing so many arguments and perspective, my opinion on this topic has completely changed. i am now an ardent supporter of full decriminalization of sex work and free movement of people!

[@DuelJ007]

"Specifically classes with cool teachers" Yeah, that's the truest thing I've heard.

[@Mastikator]

So basically "The Nordic Model" is just yet another "For The Greater Good" Hot Fuzz style disappearing of people seen as "undesirables".

[@PedanticPig]

The greater good!

[@SunniestAutumn]

The Greater Good!

[@manalad8928]

The Nordic model is authoritarian and most "feminists" support that bullshit.

[@issacabraham8732]

@@SunniestAutumn shut it !

[@JamesKing-oe9gf]

Not really. Though of course to some extent you can see all forms of legislation/regulation as creating a dominant view of what is desired and what is not. But to take the nordic model as only being that is to quite deliberately missing the point.

[@sebastienmorin9020]

Okay, second video I watch by you, loving it, I'm subscribed now, I'm going to binge watch the hell out of your channel.

[@Zarasvids]

Thank you so much. I've been having similar thoughts about the industry and had no way of properly wording them but now you've given me words to use and you've better shaped and added to the ideas that I was trying to work with! Of course I won't have this be the only thing to sway my judgement, but you've still helped me a lot so thank you.