SHOULD THE GREY KNIGHTS BECOME A LEGION? COULD THE INQUISITION EXPAND THEM?

[@NornQueenKya]

Considering the initiate to grey knight ratio... the universe may run out of psykers trying

[@MrFallenone]

Well ... thanks to the Great Rift there are more of them than ever before.

[@mduckernz]

They'd probably have to breed them (it's the Imperium, ethics are irrelevant...)

[@PapaFunDip]

Aren't 10000 psykers fed to big E every day

[@UrielVentris1984]

there are more pskers now then there were millions. i think its possible. GW will find a way. grey knights will evolve and become a legion. with primaris.

[@michaelhowell2326]

There has to be a reason the Grey Knights haven't gotten the Primaris treatment, and that makes me think that they can't be built-up any faster without sacrificing quality.

[@ThatHawiianGuy]

I personally think it’s because there is something wrong with the Primaris that we don’t know yet but they do.

[@ThePathStrider]

I guess even Papa Smurf is reluctant to mess with gene seed that came from dad.

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

There is no way in the warp Guilliman would let Cawl tinker with Daddy's own genetic material. That's an extra spicy helping of heresy.

[@GreatChickenGod]

its because they already are better then primaris. The Killing Ground has Cpt Ventris and another sergeant, who are both primaris, face off against a grey knight Brother Captain in a fist fight, and both lost.

[@v02max75]

Grey Knights are already OP(in lore) and I'm not sure if they could be made any better. There has also never been a single GK fall to chaos in 10,000 years. Maybe we shouldn't muck around with their genetics hahaha

[@jonjooneill4586]

The Imperium would have to lower its selection process. If the SAS did this we would be in a world of hurt. Keep it difficult, keep it pure!

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

No. Considering the unfathomable high standard of quality everything about the Grey Knights have to meet, that is simply not possible. Could they be expanded to a larger size? Sure, but a Legion-scale formation would be impossible in its resource-drain.

[@MalleusDaemonum]

Depends on how big the legion was... We don't know if the Imperium with its million plus worlds couldn't forge the required gear to support them, I think the legion sized formation would be too difficult more because of the quality of the soldier they are striving to produce... They may not even be properly restricted to a thousand the same as other Chapters are, it might just have worked out that there's roughly a thousand at any given time...? I can't remember coming across any source material that says they're bound as such by the codex astartes, they're clearly so far removed from the rest of the adeptus astartes, and are clearly not the same as a codex compliant chapter, so I dunno... Still, you're not wrong to dismiss the possibility of a grey knights legion, imo!

[@drhapi5308]

Fun Fact. There is an entire Legion of GreyKnights…everyone who learns this is purged by order of The inquisition.

[@juidude634]

I was thinking too: 1000 or 100 000?? Only inq. will know!✌🇫🇮

[@steffanyschwartz7801]

If this happens Guilliman would give approval and probably take the legion from the Inquisition. A legion of Sisters of battle is strong enough for the Echlisiarchy but a legion of Greet Knights for the Inquisition? No way. Also Rho Gulliman passed a reform where it’s fine that you know of chaos since chaos can attack anywhere now

[@namenull7399]

"... take the legion from the Inquisition." Sounds like a great way to start a civil war with the inquisition!

[@steffanyschwartz7801]

@@namenull7399 would the Inquisition fight the primarch that saved them?

[@nathanholmes9983]

@@steffanyschwartz7801 it is possible

[@licensed_beheader]

@@nathanholmes9983 guilliman would eat them alive

[@namenull7399]

​@@steffanyschwartz7801 Yes. This is the Inquisition we are talking about. And the primarch in question is consorting with xenos and building himself a legion and isn't gung ho about his dad being a 'god'. Horus and the other traitors are primarchs too. Guilliman will never turn against the imperium because the setting demands it but the inquisitors live in universe and can't use that logic. If I was an inquisitor I would be terrified of Guilliman gaining lots of power because there is no one to stop him if he flips teams. There are no other loyal primarchs to rein Guilliman in if he goes off the reservation.

[@seandees3028]

I always wondered if they actually had geneseed in the typical sense. We know they are Astartes~esque, with a few additions (the implanted seals for example). If their modifications are from the Emperor directly they may be more akin to the Costodes in their creation methods, but not as extensively modified. Is their geneseed, if it exists in a form that would be recognized as such, as prolific as a typical Astartes? They do seam to have less turnover than a normal chapter and they face threats that routinely destroy Astartes with ease and yet they survive.

[@kelman727]

They do; the HH series makes this clear.

[@TheLostPrimarch2nd]

Not going to happen, sadly. The requirements for a Grey Knight are already higher than an Imperator Titan, so it's very unlikely they would grow to such a size. But it would be fun as hell. I can already picture Grimnar's face. "YOU GAVE THE GREY KNIGHTS WHAT??!!! " (Communication channel opens, Draigo's face appears in the screen) "Hey, furry-man, remember when you called us honorless sons of snakes?? " (Grey Knight Legion pops us over Fenris) "Guess again, wolf-fuckers"

[@alastair4839]

Na, Grey Knights were being dicks and they knew it... they would leave the Wolves alone... plus the Wolves themselves are perhaps close to Legion nowadays ... so game on if so!

[@AdeptKing]

Didn't they make up after the Grey Knights helped bail the Space Wolves out when Magnus attacked them again?

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

When Holy Terra was being overrun with daemons, they didn't expand the Grey Knights. When the Inquisition was declaring war on the 6th, they didn't expand the Grey Knights. With the great rift, there wasn't EVEN TALK of expanding the Grey Knights. I honestly don't think that they can.

[@scrijordan]

Can explain more on the second part

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

@@scrijordan, when they invaded Fenris.

[@seanwilliamson5720]

Considering how many people would die through the trials of becoming a grey knight, I see it as unlikely. If you were to use resources wisely, and humans being a resource in this context would seem rather wasteful. But it is 40k so who knows.

[@ryansauchuk7290]

I don't think you understand the Imperium. Throwing away millions to win battles and even using manual labor to load Ship Macrocannons means that unless you possess special skills you will be used up and thrown away. Remember one of the most famous lines in regards to the Imperium is "You will not be missed."

[@TheGuardingDark_]

Human life is cheap in 40k. That wouldn’t be an issue.

[@OljeiKhan]

@@TheGuardingDark_ Psyker* uncorrupted* humans. There's practically none of those in the galaxy in 40k. Blackships bring thousands of psykers everyday to the Sol system , how many of those would be good enough for Grey Knight initiation trials? And how many of those will survive even half the trials? You can't just put 1 trillion humans in a machine and have a thousand Grey Knights come out of it. The process is... complicated to say the least.

[@TheGuardingDark_]

@@OljeiKhan Alright lets do some very simple math. The Imperium at any given time. By most estimates, has about a quadrillion individuals in it. 1000 million is 1 billion. 1000 billions is one trillion. 1000 trillions is one quadrillion. I say all this to establish the frankly staggering numbers of people we’re dealing with here. Let’s say only one in 100,000 people has the hutzpah to be a grey knight. Hell, lets be pessimistic and say it’s only one in 1,000,000. Even then. Thats still more potential grey knights then there are humans alive right now. I don’t think you fully appreciate the sheer scale of the numbers involved in this setting.

[@OljeiKhan]

@@TheGuardingDark_ one in a hundred thousand is a VEEEEEEEEEEERY generous ratio of humans who can even qualify for Grey Knight initiation trials. I don't think you understand the topic you are talking about. Grey Knights aren't roidrage on legs like other Astartes. As far as i know , one in a million human is a psyker. Most psykers are going to be astropaths or fuel for the Astronomican. So not even a percent of those are going to be deemed worthy of consideration. %99 of those deemed worthy will probably die terrible deaths during the trials. So no , even the fact that they could field a thousand of these guys is a MASSIVE feat.

[@Deamon93IT]

I personally think that they *cannot* become a Legion, merely because of what it takes to become a Grey Knight: they recruit only powerful Psykers (a very limited recruitment pool) and out of those only a few are able to become Grey Knights (as not all aspirants survive the ordeal).

[@ThePathStrider]

And it isn't like you can lower standards and let potentially tainted aspirants in.

[@brockwilkie6022]

I feel the Emporer's Gene-seed would be exceptionally stable. I agree the primary hold up would be the recruitment pool and rigors of training. Maybe they could sloly grow more if they made the concious decision to start expanding, but I very much doubt it would be dramatic, even if they wanted to.

[@willy.b.b3427]

You understate how rigorous the grey Knight training process is. Depending on the chapter, 1 in 10 to 1 in a 100 aspirants may make it all the way to be a full battle brother. The grey knights get less than 1 battle brother per 1000 aspirants. On top of that, as you said they can recruit from far less of the imperium population, because the all need to be very powerful psykers.

[@GreatChickenGod]

i agree with this. barely 1 in 100 even survive the first test, let alone all 666 rites. recruits being taken from the Black Ships that feed the emperor is also not a whole lot to pick from in terms of recruitment when you consider that it is most likely gamma level psykers or higher being chosen

[@licensed_beheader]

Not really anymore as since the opening of the rift psyker numbers have increased dramatically plus the already existing ones have gotten a quite significant power boost, tho I still believe they can't become a legion coz of quality control and casualty rates they'll be taking going forward.

[@alexharris6481]

A legion of Grey Knights, jeez that's scary.

[@stone7281]

personal theory: the grey knights geneseed is the geneseed the emperor was going to use for magnuses 2nd legion if he accepted the emperors offer in the throne room

[@HammarPwnsYourFace]

I have the exact same idea couple days after I read that with the emperor said he would build him a legion that could not be corrupted and guess what, grey knight’s fit that bill.

[@Ben-bs7nr]

"And I also had a double secret Primaris Legion of Grey Knights" -RG probably

[@Dontreallycare5]

I just always assumed they were "chapter sized" because of how impossible it is to grow at a fast enough rate to exceed their casualties when they are constantly sent to places specifically to fight Greater Daemons.

[@JhonnyChitarra]

As a proud GK player (i painted silver until i got sick of it... after 5k pts) I would say that 1000 brothers aren't enough

[@johnpyrett4017]

2 things come to mind as to why they aren't a legion. 1)The way they need to survive being turned into a grey knight has a low survival rate thus they would need to turn to either a renegade or a history of a traitor legion to "possibly" increase the chances. 2)Then they would have to give their equipment to the cog boys thus ruining their secrets just to get enough equipment in the new recruits hands.

[@greyknighthyuga4946]

I doubt Guilliman would disapprove of the grey knights being formed into a legion. He already believes breaking them apart MIGHT have been a mistake

[@TheRealLifeRobert]

I'm surprised they aren't a legion already given their importance to the Imperium

[@kelman727]

Not really considering most of their recruits die.

[@waltrudd5200]

Best of the best on a galactic scale and what not.

[@blagojapetrusevski1850]

Hello there Wolf. First I want to thank you about the hole work and effort in this crazy universe. You are great. Second can you tell us more about the relationship between gray knights and custodes?

[@arionofotherworld]

I have a feeling that like many space marine chapters, the Grey Knights are greater in number than their codex imposed limit. I also think that the Grey Knights should cease their secrecy given the number of surviors of Cadia who are pretty aware of chaos and as far as i know still fight for the Imperium.

[@project9701]

The problem of expanding the Grey Knights to the strength of a Legion are multiple. First of all, the sheer raw material needed to to create the Knights themselves. You need to find young, powerful male psions, and put them through a training regime that that kills most of that training pool. Do you reduce the requirements-and risk vulnerability? Or do you somehow *increase* the number of trainees by some means, assuming that you can get them to Titan in enough time to be viable? Second, you have to dedicate Grey Knights to train the aspirants, and there's no real way to use a Scout Company to use live-fire as a way to cull the unlucky and the ones that somehow slip through training. And that training takes time. Third, the gene seed. Everything indicates that while Grey Knight gene seed is almost immune to mutation, it is difficult to produce and difficult to reproduce in large numbers. So, there's another bottleneck. Fourth, the equipment. I'd be willing to be that even the most plain vanilla Grey Knight costs more in terms of materials and labor to equip in Aegis armor, storm bolter, and Nemesis Force Weapon than an entire *squad* of Astartes. With the cost going up from there and going up quickly. Fifth...the sheer cost of all of the secondary equipment-from vehicles to warships-has to be massive. I think there's a lot of people, from the High Lords to the Inquisition, that would love for there to be more Grey Knights. But, they are lucky to have what they have right now.

[@docvaliant721]

What makes the US Army so dangerous besides having Texans is that it will adapt. It will put aside any tradition to have a structure that matches the type of missions it has to tackle. It will change the amount of number of active soldiers,type of units and division/brigade structure. GW doesn't hire military experts or more importantly combat veterans so I think this is more about ignore than lore. I hope they tackle changing up the codex and the make up of different units. I would like to see Solar Aux. The expansion of special operations and aerospace forces.

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

Also the absurd amounts of money the US has if the enemy has propaganda numbers the US can match that with real numbers

[@michaelhowell2326]

Saying the Custodes having 10,000 members is a bit of a deception. They spent 10K years sequestered on Terra. That whole time few of their number ever left and fewer still died. The Grey Knights have been out in the Galaxy for that whole time.

[@argeltalthecustodiankiller6552]

And there was a gray knight fall to chaos

[@Dreadbringer]

Many die in the webway, and it takes Many years and resoueces to make a custodes

[@michaelhowell2326]

@@argeltalthecustodiankiller6552 who and when?

[@v02max75]

I think that even if everyone wanted to expand the Grey Knights brotherhood, it would still be a question of logistics. The sheer amount of training and recruitment tactics that go in to every single one of these gents is probably not easy to scale. And you don't want to dilute the power that this brotherhood holds because they might start falling to chaos and then we're in a shitload of trouble.

[@finny1987]

I've always personally liked the idea that the grey knights dont actually follow the one thousand marine limit and they just fudge all of their numbers to make everyone think they do, i know they're used as a last result but they cant be putting out fires across the galaxy with only one thousand marines Also as you said they were originally intended to be a legion and then were locked in the warp to prepare, why would they stop at 1000 or even follow guillimans decree

[@Dontreallycare5]

I don't think they would need to fudge the numbers. Hardly anyone knows they actually exist, and their only direct oversight is from the Inquisition whom they work with hand in glove. The dictates of the codex doesn't really seem like it would apply to them given their focus was already extremely limited in nature anyway. Not really a big risk of a Grey Knights Legion deciding to set up an empire and rebel.

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

Doubt they are ever at full capacity. Just through the recruitment difficulty alone.

[@Kat1kafka]

Guilliman:...I hate these guys

[@aguspuig6615]

honestly the idea sounds scary, they give me black themplar vibes, as in, very good warriors but at any point they might go compleetly bonkers and decide custodes are heretics or something out there like that

[@matthinton19]

More grey knights wouldn’t even un balance things just allow the imperium to get closer to an even footing. Yes they are super tough but when half the galaxy is demon turf you need more demon killers

[@normtrooper4392]

There are also material requirements. Not just building the marines but also their extremely specialized gear that cannot be made by any forge world. I don't know if the capacity exists to really ramp them up in that sort of way, especially if so much of the technology needs to be made in secret or with secrecy. The grey knights are a specialized formation to be used in the most dire situations.

[@AdeptKing]

It would certainly be practical to get more Grey Knights. Daemons are becoming a more common threat and the Daemon Primarchs are becoming active again. I don't know how quickly that can happen though. Malcador gave the Grey Knights tens of thousands of people to initiate and they still came out with a thousand of them at the end. As for the latter point on the Inquisition being suspicious of Guilliman I don't think that would go well. I feel like the Grey Knights would listen to the Primarch over the Inqusition. Even the Custodes are listening to Guilliman now since he has the Emperor's sword and blessing. I think the Grey Knights would see that and think the same. Personally I would like to see a bit of a change so that they can release some updated models for the Grey Knights. The Terminators are fine but I think the strike marines need an update.

[@AdeptKing]

@Vultaz Oh yeah I forgot about that.

[@robertross9019]

I’m fairly certain that more than one member of the Ordo Malleus has already considered the possibility and would remain completely unsurprised if several of the Inquistors had discussed the matter amongst themselves, at a convocation perhaps. Whether or not future canonical writings will explore this notion remains to be seen but if done correctly would be a damn fine read, full of intrigue and politicking.

[@Preaplanes]

I mean, with the Astronomican being cut in half, Emps should only need a little more than half the power he's been using, so cut out maybe 25% of the psychers he's been chowing down on and that's enough psychers to form a decent size legion even at 99% rejection.

[@rodneygaul2227]

well said most of these comments saying "no" , are think over the weekend or 2 week build like they're plastic models

[@just_chive6272]

I’d love to hear your updated thoughts on this with the Lion’s return and the inquisition investigating it

[@serlistogiette4168]

I feel like even if they wanted to they couldn't really increase their ranks. Same thing as Custodes, like yeah a whole legion would be amazing but it's almost logistically impossible. As far as I know and correct me if I'm wrong but don't grey knights have to be powerful psykers beforehand? Which are already super rare, and when the galaxy is in chaos it'd be hard finding more subjects meeting the requirements. Also their specially crafted equipment needing to be also ramped up in production would be a huge pain in the ass. Their kits aren't exactly a dime-a-dozen. But idk much about warhammer lore, but I'm just thinking with my understanding and logic.

[@rodneygaul2227]

If the time scale was 2 weeks ? Then I'd agree 100's if not 1000's of years ? It would be very easy to gear up the process Do you really think primaris was started last weekend and able to repopulate traditional chapters ?

[@serlistogiette4168]

@@rodneygaul2227 I'm speaking of their demand after the galaxy was split in two. The demand right now.

[@rodneygaul2227]

@@serlistogiette4168 That I disagree with as it takes time to cross the galaxy . Sure we would lose 1/2 to 3/4 of human population , BUT that weakens Chaos as it needs the negative emotions to feed on . Humans have rebuilt before ( atleast x2 )

[@serlistogiette4168]

@@rodneygaul2227 What?

[@rodneygaul2227]

@@serlistogiette4168 Chaos needs human emotions , why they like us in 40k kill off 1/2 or more , less food

[@beardedsquire]

My head canon has always been that the GreyKnights are larger than chapter strength more like 10,000 similar to Custodes. Big.E and Malcs knew the size and scale of the Daemonic threat and could command whatever resources they liked, so why would they only make such a crucial weapon Chapter sized, a force they at one point planned to be lead by a Primarch, what a waste of a Primarch leading just 1000. It feels more like a mistake writers made not thinking through that the GK were made before RG's Codex rules and also by a higher power than him. Which we're now stuck with as 'established' lore. It is something I'd be happy to see actually see retconned out, it might not even have to be too difficult with the the Inquisition just making sure the records of the 'Chapter' in Administratum refer to Chapter strength. Let's face it no one is allowed to go to Titan so they wouldn't be able to go find out. Also to consider how some 'Chapters' are much larger than Chapter strength they just become vague with their reports like the Black Templar. The whole Chapters thing in general I'd like to see, moved on. I know it was more a business decision so that people could create their own chapters by saying their are loads of them. But lore wise it just seems too extreme. Hopefully Roboute comes to the decision it was ridiculously crippling on getting shit done. I guess the question that would also need to be asked is, what do you consider legion strength? While Codex wise we know what Chapters mean, for Legion there isn't a description of what that actually means. If we go by our real world definition, Legion strength simply means 6000, That doesn't seem that outlandish to suggest taking the GK to Legion strength. On the basis of 40k being everything amped up to 11, then reasonable to presume Legion Strength is larger, but the actual legions all varied in size for various reasons. The smallest pre-heresy being about 80,000 and the largest 250,000. These numbers being during an active Crusade, so a bit like real world during a time of war you get more resources, you get to be bigger than you normally would be. So maybe refer to Legion size being over 60,000, keeps it nice and clean as just a larger version of the real world term fitting in all the legions. 60,000 Greyknights, is that possible. We haven't really got any way to know have we, being we're not entirely sure how much harder they are to create than the hardest Astartes Chapter is to create, or how much easier they are to create than Custodes, who let's keep in mind are 10,000 strong. It's all just how the lore is written end of the day isn't it, the GK have the backing of the Inquisition, therefore getting the resources and recruits probably isn't an issue, it is more whether Roboute decides Chapter size limitations need to go away or not.

[@koalafudge]

Biggest problem that you didn't mention would be the number of fit candidates, wouldn't it? That's why the bell of lost souls sounds when one of them dies, because they're so extraordinarily rare. That and them being a secret.

[@daveharrison4697]

I think it was made very clear in The Emperor's Gift that the primary restriction on Grey Knight recruitment in suitable applicants, and those applicants then passing the trials. Its implied that it takes a million kidnapped candidates for ONE successful initiate. That means for a thousand Grey Knights you need a billion boys no older than 12, (Hyperion was an exception due to malnutrition delaying the onset of adolescence) that are strong psykers, genetically compatible, physically fit (to survive the selection and implantation process, AND totally free from mental, physical and psychic corruption. That's a tough order logistically even for an Imperium of a million worlds, especially when you need to keep the process completely secret to prevent corruption or attack on that logistical pipeline. Short of setting up a breeding program under the total control of the Ordo Malleus or the Grey Knights, I can't see how a substantial expansion could be achieved. Plus... Do we actually even have an accurate strength of the Grey Knights? Given their scattered nature they could range anywhere between a few hundred and thousands.

[@lopesj6670]

I want to see how wolf lord paints his models

[@avatar2xl]

The amount of deaths it takes to make one grey knight is 100 times that of the normal astartes. So making them a legion would be costly if nothing else

[@Andernol]

Because the Knights-errant originally consisted of loyalists from Traitor legions, I'd love to think the Grey Knights Geneseed is derived from the emperor because it's a bunch of traitor Geneseed compiled together, balancing out the flaws and becoming something greater the sum of their parts.

[@geneawisea2708]

A Grey Knights Legion, Fucking Hell, can you imagine a team up between a Legion of these Fuckers backed up by the Legion of Custodes and a Legion of Minotaurs?!?!! Holy God Emperor, Heresy would be Fucked!!! Brutally!!

[@GreatChickenGod]

also have to consider that recruits come from the Black Ships, the lifeline of the emperor. so it would be a balance between the emperor and the chapter. their 8th brotherhood does contain over 500 neophytes, but that's to ensure that if a brother falls, they can immediately be replaced. in their history, usually only 1 or 2 squads of marines are sent to handle incursions. there have been few battles in which many grey knights were slain. the banishment of Angron and the Ritual of the Damned are such battles. so the need to be legion sized is not really necessary

[@chrispilkington8662]

As well as astropaths not just soul fuel but the communication network

[@mattsmith7776]

Is Janus still alive, or once the body dies does magnus noble shard get moved into another suitable body? How about kaldor draigo? Is he still the grey nights grandmaster? It's just that there seems to be 2 conflicting stories about him. Draigo got cursed to wander the warp, and occasionally comes back to help the imperium but I also heard that he went through slannesh's realm to defeat her but he lost to her and he became the silver knight of Slannesh.

[@jeffhreid]

The problem is one of capacity. You might as well say why not have everyone in the arm forces be Seals or delta force. The nature of elite forces is that they are of limited numbers

[@sugargame]

The risk of corruption is still there. Grey Knights should be managed like the Deathwatch where dozens of successor chapters are sending conscripts to the parent chapter.

[@heirwolf6929]

Ideally all Astartes would be as warp-resistant and incorruptible as the GK. But I guess it would be too time and resource consuming compared to the relative "chaff" that is the Space Marines.

[@omegaonthefly1977]

Legion? No. Should they expand as much as they possibly can in order to deal with their new responsibility of keeping the rift contained? Absolutely! Besides the point that they really don’t have the ability to be “legion sized” due to low recruit success chance (Though I’ve always hated GW’s numbers, especially relating to successful marines and the idea of turning failed marines into servitors being massive grimderp). The idea of there being a “legion” in the imperium has become a really huge buzzword as of late. Guilliman himself being the most recent victim when he sanctioned the creation of 8 new chapters in Ultramar and all the diplomats in attendance had a shit fit about him trying to create a “legion”. Ultimately the brotherhood needs to expand to adapt to their new situation, but the idea of it expanding beyond, say, 3,000-4,000 marines at any give time would both be logistically impossible and would also probably cause quite a few heads to turn among the higher ups in the imperium Edit: I also forgot to add that last I recall, due to the opening of the great rift. Basically every psyker in the galaxy became significantly more powerful, which has given the Grey Knights a massive influx of recruits. So we do know they are expanding. Just not likely at the pace that is required, but when has that ever been news for the imperium?

[@leavesinautumn5959]

Whenever you have to unexpectedly ramp up production of anything quality control suffers .. The Grey Knights strike me as the sort to make a fuss about quality control.

[@rodneygaul2227]

in 100 years is not fast , You make it sound like done over the weekend like a fast paint job on your models getting ready for a tournament

[@eichler721]

I love the Grey Knights and they would be too OP against Chaos if they where even 10k in size, but they are larger then 1000 is my belief most likely 2k in size. But they can't be made like that as they require so much more resources and the Geneseed is rare and not plentiful. But they are doing far more now working with the Custodes who make a almost undefeatable force against about any force in the Galaxy.

[@christopherarmstrong3582]

Could there not be a tigh just like the planet's are expected to provide bodies for the gaurd that chapters should be obliged to provide librarians that would end up sent off to become knights?

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

We don't need legions of specialists in certain tactics and strategies, we need competent combined arms forces, comprised of chapters with varying specialties and tactics so whichever commander is in charge can tailor his force to the meet the threat the best way possible. The problem with the legions was that to a man they were loyal to their Primarchs and all fought in a certain way. If each Primarch's command consisted of a mix of forces from all 18 legions he would have gained more tactical flexibility and if he were to go traitor only 1/18th of his force would go traitor with him. Breaking up the legions into independent chapters to prevent future heresies was a big mistake as they should have been mixed up instead so no Primarch would ever lead a force that was 99% genetically loyal to him.

[@TacticalReaper56]

They seem more like a bulk-head force, or more of extensions or tool to be used by the inquisition. I think they grey knights are fully aware of this and know how the inquisitioners loath them being out right connected. They are implied, from my understanding, as being some of the toppest dogs around. That being said I think it would cheapen them. They have a mystic from a casual level that other "factions" don't really have.

[@SirAtrox]

So are grey knights created like the other space marines or is there creation similar to the Custodes? If they are created like the other space marines where to they find new recruits since they are kept so secret? They seem so much bigger than normal space marines, makes me think they are closer to the Custodes and it may not be possible to mass produce them.

[@thomasalegredelasoujeole9998]

Geez, to make a grey knight you need a decent psyker + all the requisites for an astartes etc. But they might become the legion the Emperor intended the thousand sons to become…

[@specopspud2824]

simple answer = NO iirc - Guilliman himself disbanded the legions into chapter sized commands so that no single commander could be in a position to command a force that could threaten the Imperium in the same way as Horus. And I am pretty sure the High lords of Terra know this as well.

[@morgs456]

Hmmmm the inquisition with a legion of OP astartes Guess it depends if you are gulliman fan or not I am, so it's a very bad idea

[@saintakira9627]

Agree. And I haven't seen it mentioned, but the Inquisition also already has control of the Deathwatch, which is a semi-OP group of Astartes with access to the best toys. Give them a *Legion* of Grey Knights and the Inquisition would arguably be among the most powerful military organizations in the setting. No Titans/ Knights to speak of, somewhat limited Naval access. Still... it would be setting up a civil war.

[@Shadowhunterbg]

When it comes to fighting the Neverborn, an enemy that has limitless numbers, the more you have to stand against them the better. How many worlds that needed the Grey knights fell just because they didn't have the numbers to aid effectively? But i know that the Imperium won't do such a smart move. It needs to stay dumb so the Grimdark can continue. Honestly this gets tiresome.

[@benives254]

Its probably easier to keep a chapters resources under the radar rather then a legions!

[@vontheunknown7982]

The great Knights do you have a unknown relationship with the blood Ravens we don't know about.

[@harveyhams1572]

Remember, elite troops are few, mainly because training them is such a great task. The problem is how many Dreadnoughts will come from that battle?

[@ddespoth78]

Seems very unlikely they would even if they could, something additionally to consider is could they even find enough worthy aspirants quick enough even if they do have a massive amount of Gene seed stocked?

[@hawk4192]

Remember: to properly count the numbers of troops involved when GW gives a number add a 0 to the end.

[@thelion2751]

I don't like this at all the inquisition already have to much power,If Guiliman approved this and take control of this i would side with him because we know what happen when the inquisition get they're heads full of more power than they already have

[@serlistogiette4168]

What better tool of chaos than a self-righteous inquisitor?

[@thelion2751]

@@serlistogiette4168 well the sisters of battle the exorcist the black templars Hmmmm lion el'jonson

[@serlistogiette4168]

@@thelion2751 I was making a joke

[@thelion2751]

@@serlistogiette4168 yeah and I was making the more obvious joke about the inquisition, anyone is better than they xD

[@serlistogiette4168]

@@thelion2751 Ah, I'm sorry. I thought you meant they were WORSE I was confused

[@zetaking2909]

the inquisition THINKS there outside of papa smurfs control, but he is the emps word, disobeying him is no different at this time, then saying you dont follow the emp. Would love to see how many grey knights it takes to fuck with a castodie tho. Also other than the iron hands and maby the dark angles i dont see any first founding chapter siding with them. Also for the grey knights the amount of aspirants they burn through would make it really hard for them to go full legion, for every 10 thousand that could be say made into an ultra marine 1 would be able to be made into a grey knight.

[@Subject_Keter]

Assuming they can find another people to become Grey Knights, they should! It like not using the ultra acid rounds against tyranids.

[@brandonpotts54]

They are like Delta force man. Trained to have maximum lethality with small numbers. Making them a legion would water it down.

[@shaunwilson6289]

I’m sure I read a small passage there something of a knight going into a realm of chaos

[@WalkingCaptain]

Quick question. Do Roboute Guilliman and Belisarius Cawl know their existence?

[@josephukpong2287]

Yes...of course they do..lol They have fought side by side (especially.when Gman was resurrected), and there are even grey knights assigned directly to Gullimann

[@WalkingCaptain]

@@josephukpong2287 thank you, I raised the question incorrectly. I meant the existence of their production (creation) process… (back-engineering)… As otherwise they might consider GK as a potential threat… At the first glance GK seem to follow the Gman codex in regards to chapter size but on the other hand they do not have a primarch, so what exactly is followed can be questioned (they are no bound to the typical obedience ties as the other legions and chapters)… They did give him access to at least to some things of their secrets, (I doubt for the Terminus Decree). So I was wondering what has been communicated to Cawl and what Cawl has done or plan to do with this knowledge…

[@matthewharr6881]

Do the gray knights even have a restriction on their numbers? Or is the so called 1000 warriors just a misdirection, and the really have more then that. They seem to replace thier numbers almost over night. And their response time is absurd, I think I read something about gray knight outposts some were. It just makes me wonder about their numbers.

[@noiseinmyblood]

Math is the issue. Space Marines already take the top how many decimal points .00000 of a population as recruits? Grey Knights take it a step further because each recruit must be a Psyker, but also a Psyker of a specific type and power level. I believe it's stated somewhere (maybe someone can find this? It may be a passing comment in a lore-bit) that each Grey Knight is classified as High Gamma to Low Beta at a minimum, and they are focused in Divination and Pyromancy. Those requirements add multiple layers of filters thru what's already a 1 in a billion candidate. The other issue, and this is the more important of the two, is attrition/loss in combat. You can compare the Grey Knights to Custodes in terms of quality, but you have to keep in mind that the Grey Knights have been in a constant state of full combat deployment since their inception. For the last 10,000 years the Custodes have been babysitting the God-Emperor with the blinds closed and the doorbell disabled. 10,000 Custodes, sure, but how many have died in that time? Just doesn't add up.

[@davidthoirs3895]

The only person would be Dante. Now he is "regent" of the northern side, he deserves his own "version" of the grey knights on his side of the rift.

[@Crimson_Loki]

Are the Grey Knights even capable of becoming a legion? They seem too...specialized, too hand crafted for there to be many of them. I imagine just creating one to be hugely resource heavy, especially if they have DNA from the Emperor himself. Between the genetics of creating one and the training, hell, even the equipment they use, I don't see Grey Knights becoming too numerous without some type of corner cutting. I mean, the same arguments could be used with the Custodes, "why not make more?" Because it isn't that easy/simple to just make more.

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

Theirs 10k custodies fucking around if you can have 10k of those guys you can have atleast 3x the number of grey knights

[@Crimson_Loki]

@@augustuslunasol10thapostle Yeah, but it's well documented that it takes YEARS of time and effort to make Custodes, and no offense to the Custodes, but they've kinda been doing nothing for the last 10k years. Now before anyone jumps down my throat, yes, they've been training and they're still as tough as in the heyday of the Great Crusade when the Emperor roamed around, but the Grey Knights have actually been around and taking losses, big losses as in the case when they fought Angron. Plus, I'd argue that making a Grey Knight is more complicated than making a Custodes simply cause they're all incredibly powerful psykers, and I doubt those are a dime a dozen.

[@williamamely7038]

The Knights were created during the time when all Astartes were still fighting within the Legions. If the Lion returns, he may want his Angels reach Legion size, arguing their own loyalty to the Emperor. Would Guilliman oppose his Brother, and the Knights, over this? The Imperium is under such a threat from within, and without, he may have to give in to the circumstances.

[@KaiserAfini]

In order to even join the grey knights, you need to be a high powered psycher with the insane physical and mental skill to be an astartes, then survive the trials and training. So you can't make more of them because humanity does not often produce people with such insane natural talent. Its like the Callidus, yes they are amazing and you would want more, but their minimum standards are impractically high.

[@TechNinjaSigma]

I think some Grey Knight Successor Chapters would be awesome!!!

[@argeltalthecustodiankiller6552]

There is one

[@michaelmayr1990]

I truly do not believe there would be a mere 1000 Grey Knights.

[@johnnieschatz693]

In the words of a famous wrestler, GIMME A HELL YEAH !!!

[@lazyminipainting]

Who's to say there aren't already 200000 of them and they just tell the inquisition it's only 1000.

[@solarchos8821]

Given the massively high standards of the Grey Knights, I don't think it would be possible to expand their numbers. Not without concentrating exclusively on doing so to the exclusion of fighting Daemons for at least a few centuries. And that's NOT going to happen.

[@gobihoukou1]

I am not sure if there is any first founding chapter that would pledge loyalty to Inquisition over Guilliman. Dark angeles? Not a chance. White scars? Nah, too free spirited. Space wolves? Well... Imperial fists? There might be slight possibility, but very unlikely one. Through all the differences between their primarchs, they still respected each other and Guilliman even saved them from beiing wiped out that one time. Blood Angeles? I do not think they want anything resembling close ties with inquisition, considering black rage and stuff. Iron hands are too stubborn to follow anyone, plus inquisition and mechanicus might come to blows sometimes, and it is clear who would iron tenth side with in that case. Ultramarines obviously follow Guilliman, then there are Slamanders who arent exactly pleased with inquisitions preffered way of treating civilians, so that is a no, and Raven guard, who similarly to 18th are more on "thou shalt not kill inocent imperials" side of things, plus some aspects of their past would not be looked upon favourably by inquisition. Not to mention that Corax and Guilliman were gaming buddies back in the day.

[@steve43ful]

The Grey Knights are the SSJ4 of Space Marine.

[@AzrealMaximus]

Maybe Bobby G needs to rethink the max capacity of a SM Chapter from 1k to 2k. Theoretically the Black Templars number well over 5k. 2k standard SM Chapters would be a much more viable force in itself. The GK are a special unit, not beholden to anyone but Big E. They are NOT subordinate to the inquisition but equal, their writ is from Big E himself as is the inquisition. If they stand at 1k or more, or just 100, then that's it. You can't make psychers, the brothers are phenomenal psychers rivaling the power towards Magnus Pre-heresy. Maybe not, but still not the run of the mill black ship types .

[@josephukpong2287]

Wolf Lord, pls a correction.... Guilliman does not answer to.the inquisition and he is not beneath their judgement. He has given them orders/requests before, ...they would never dream of ordering him. He could even have them.killed or deposed for disobedience He respects their independence , just as he does for the other big bodies like the ecchlisarchy and administratum. Secondly, it is not for the inquisition to decide the expansion,..it is the Grey Knights themselves to decide. Whatever they decide, the inquisition cannot stop them

[@mgdubbz9861]

Just create more chapters like the Exocists. The poor man Grey knights.

[@chrisfrombeyond4240]

What would a successor chapter of the Grey Knights look like?

[@juidude634]

How big is grey knigts chapter?? 1000 or 100 000?? Only inq. know for sure..

[@tomdolan9761]

Would the Ordo Malleus feel threatened by an expansion of the Grey Knights to legion numbers?

[@mikemoore2791]

Better question why arent they at legion size already. Outside of the Custodes they are the only truly 100% loyal and effective force that can take on demons. Ok ok quality, cost. Etc etc.

[@---md4iv]

Only one of thousand aspirants does make it to the chapter monastery on titan and then they are trained and tested, trained and tested till aproximately one million aspirants are dead till they found one who they deem to be worthy of being an neophyte and to get the chapter geneseed to actually begin their training and to learn how to master of their psychic powers to channel this energy in psychic wards and create an psychic nimbus called the aegis who protects against the foul demon and we are talking recruiting ALL ACROSS THE IMPERIUM! Reading the older kodex of the grey knights you can come easily to the conclusion it is much easier to maintain the Grey Knights in chapter size because of the litteral loss of life that is needed to create one of them and now we have the discussion that they should be legion size okay that would be doable but the brutality of tests for mind and body would be needed to lowered in standards and this is something the chapter simply does not want because if you are destined to be a grey knight you will be a grey knight even more so when you try to be a paladin and there is another fact to be considered the purifiers of the chapter you can live your life as Grey Knight in perfect servitude and gain honour and titles but you maybe not part of the purifiers because your soul is not pure enough for this chosen circle and at all times there were no more than 4 dozens of them and when their numbers rise quickly there will be dark times and events. To conclude I personally hate the small number of Grey Knights alone for the fact you sacrifice in each Tabletop game around 2 dozens and more at least in a 2K point match and with the lore in mind this is just horrible I mean I lterally kill millions of aspirants that have to be found in the imperium and brought to titan yeah nice feeling, the good points are they are incorruptible, work outside the law and frame of the imperium and try to minimize the damage that chaos incursions could do the wider imperium and last point is they are precious because of their low number aside if this a higher force that maintains a small number of incorruptible guys or they simply do want to lower their standards to be more and other possible reasons.

[@Dreadbringer]

Maybe abolish the inquisition and put the grey knights in it's place. like a chapter in each segmentum or sector.

[@joanjorge566]

I think that Guilliman should raise the limit for the Grey knights since they can’t be corrupted and they exclusively fight chaos. Raise the cap for their battle bothers to like 5k to 10k

[@kelman727]

Won’t change the fact that fewer than one in a thousand initiates make it.

[@joanjorge566]

@@kelman727 sure but if they only collect 1000ish recruits knowing that like maybe 2 make it, increase it to like 10000 so that maybe 10 of them make it if their initial batch of aspirants is big enough they will start to see their numbers increase... eventually

[@chrisrodgers855]

Well when the GK’s are inquisitional lapdogs like when Logan G. of the spacewolves that he had to kill the grey knight and inquisition leader ship due to them killing innocent Allied humans. That is a form of corruption. So instead of being corrupted by demons they were corrupted by humans. They are definitely sons of Magnus filled with self righteous Indignation that they can control chaos.

[@richardlayton7184]

I would argue that any Chapter of Space Maines that can muster ten Chapters or Great Companies are and have always been Legion...

[@UDAWAPBADDY]

Fun fact the grey knights were actually supposed to be called silver knights because they are second only to the golden custodes but over the millennium that has been lost in translation

[@axdntprn]

Why don't they just make more chapters? Hide one in each segmentum, with like 3 public exorcist chapters to respond to common daemon threats, and if they can't handle it send in the grey knights and then claim the exorcists did in fact deal with it

[@comradeweismann6947]

Oh yeah! It's a Grey Knights! *One battle later* Oh no! It's the grey knights!

[@15DEAN1995]

There are so few candidates who can pass their trials already, so expanding beyond their current size is probably impossible.

[@rodneygaul2227]

Why ? How many feed the "Golden Throne " . Do they all come from Hive cities living in luxury ?

[@omabrax0555]

Could the Blood Angels be allowed to reform into a Legion given thier position?