The Menendez Brothers: Evil Killers or Victims?

[@Cheybits]

My little brother and I were raped by the same person in foster care. When I was at school, that guy that sexually assaulted me, tried to rape my brother again and my brother took a shovel and beat him in his face so bad that he had a seizure. Even though my brother and I testified against him, and there was plenty of evidence that he raped us, my brother got sent to juvenile hall and I was sent to CA to live with my narcissistic family. My brother and I to this day suffer with ptsd.

[@booluther]

They were clearly horrendously abused throughout their childhood and have served more than enough time in prison. That female prosecutor in this case was horrendous. She had awful opinions about male sexual abuse. She didn’t think men could ever be sexually assaulted.

[@DoctorElliottCarthy]

I suspect that reflected a broader consensus of opinion in society at the time (its trial by jury after all). It's really sad. Probably many other cases that don't get this level of media attention

[@wmdkitty]

You didn't follow the trial, did you? The Menendez Monsters are LIARS, first and foremost, and would have said ANYTHING to get away with murder.

[@debramicallef9996]

She's insane to think men are never abused no idea why women seem to be different to men -rubbish I was sexually physically and mentally abused but my tortured abuse left me with a Disability my uncle helped me he knew something was wrong 😢 the brothers family never helped where was Child Protection services and the police plus joses mother abused him as a child and yet she and other family members want the brothers released 💔 don't you think that's strange.

[@Decision_Justice]

We all want to believe that being SA causes these things to happen. It's a simplistic explanation that makes sense to us. However, for those of us who are victims of in c est, we know things are, in reality, much more complex. I am a victim of in c est, as is my husband of 39 years. Neither of us knew, when we married, that we had both gone through this. We were married 21 years before my husband was able to tell me what he experienced. He couldn't find the right words to explain. I had to explain to him it was SA. He wrote a letter to his mother asking about this. Her response was that his father instigated it. My husband was not only an in c est victim, but BOTH his parents participated. I've read numerous books by survivors of in c est. And in trying to help my husband I read numerous academic papers. I also followed the Menendez case due to what I perceived was the similarity between their case and my husband's experience. I read how the Menendez brothers had been seeing a psychologist. I read the transcripts of the therapy sessions. So in their case they said they killed their parents due to the abuse and especially the SA. They had been seeing a psychologist prior to the murders and after they killed their parents. They talked to the psychologist about all kinds of reasons why they killed their parents, but never mentioned SA. That was odd. Erik said he had just divulged to Lyle that his father was SA abusing him. And this was the catalyst for the murders they planned jointly. If they were indeed cognizant at the time they committed the murders of the SA being the line their parents had crossed that caused the murders, then they most certainly would have spoken to their psychologist about this being the pivotal point. I kept combing the transcripts of the therapy, but neither Erik nor Lyle mentioned the SA. This is just not plausible. There must be some other explanation. It hurts a lot to admit it but the more plausible explanation is that the SA was invented as a criminal defense. It wasn't brought up until AFTER they were arrested. So it became a reason after the fact. I later learned that the Criminal Defense Attorneys they hired brought in a specialist on the reasons children kill their parents. He listed reasons why kids kill their parents, and SA was among them. One cannot escape the fact that, as much as we SA abuse victims get a catharsis from seeing an in c est perp get their just desserts, we can't deny the fact the evidence says that in c est in the Menendez case is a criminal defense ploy. It was not the motivation for the murders. It couldn't have been. We are all being conned by a couple of skilled actors. These 2 have created a Cult of followers. If you've never been in a Cult, then you don't understand how strong the bond is between the follower and the leaders. By telling what I see as the Truth, those who have apparently staked their lives on their need to believe Erik and Lyle, have been attacking me! People, please, as difficult as it may be, it's better to face REALITY, rather than COVER-UP for something that isn't true. Didn't you learn that when you first faced up to the reality of your SA?

[@blueblack3591]

Yes i agree. She was horrid. They should be freed

[@carinarose8600]

I’m so glad you chose to talk about this. The fact that you hold back makes me trust you more when you do choose to talk about something

[@catherinejaddii828]

One of the worst things about abuse is how it can morph you into a not-so-nice person, then the future, better version of you is left to pick up the pieces and essentially deal with it the guilt and shame. Speaking as someone who went through a sort of far-right phase as an abuse response and said some pretty awful things to people, I still feel guilty about it. That guilt can then lead to further mental turmoil and it kind of feels like a never ending cycle. I recently decided that even though guilt is an important emotion (shows you have empathy), it gets to a point where enough is enough and you just have to move on with your life.

[@catsmom129]

15:49 I think the imminent threat standard makes sense IF the victim otherwise has a reasonable means of escape. In cases where the victim lives with or highly depends on their offender, there need to be other considerations. Like, realistically what were the victims options? What did they try? What did they discuss with outsiders if they had that option. You can’t look at DV as exactly the same as other self-defense cases.

[@MmmGoodToast]

I watched this documentary. To me it spoke volumes that their family members spoke up in their defense and corroborated the abuse allegations. The lady prosecutor was a B.

[@radicaledward3783]

Knowing that you've worked on many cases like this, that look you gave when the guy said, "the police are not stupid," said SO MUCH without saying anything at all. 😂

[@Marit354]

Thank you for covering this, always love hearing your insights!

[@Nicoletta13]

The fact that pam bozanich refer to then as "dumb jocks" Is cruel as they have BOTH suffered learning disabilities due to their abuse.

[@fourizereviews5123]

Hi Dr. Elliott! I just want to say I love your videos and insights. I'm currently doing a paper for my grad program pertaining to the reevaluation about the case happening on social media. Seeing how drastically different attitudes around child abuse and male SA were in 1993 to now is shocking.

[@fleurdelotus1045]

They killed out of fear of imminent danger to their lives All 6 expert psychologist world renowned determined that because of years of abuse since the age of 6 that lyle and erik suffered from the "Battered Woman Syndrome" by conclusion then it was of imperfect self-defense. then in the eyes of the law they are victims but not murderers and what they committed is considered self-defense. People suffering from battered woman syndrome after yearsof sexual, physical and psychological violence have such a significant impact on their state of mind that they develop anxiety, a feeling of helplessness and a perception inability to escape the abusive relationship that they can preemptively attack their abusers even when resting, sleeping or to when resting, sleeping or to avoid a situation in which they cannot protect their lives adequately

[@Evilclownfishyoutube]

2:35 THE WEEZER REFERENCE I SCREAMEDDDDD (my favorite band tehe)

[@leelee4291]

Hey, recently found your channel and love it. Very informative, insightful and entertaining. If you accept recommendations, could I suggest that you make a video of the last episode of MASH? Again thank you for posting.

[@legaultrants]

Oh the Oziel stuff... ok so a slight correction - Erik had seen Oziel as a minor and that's when he had agreed to report back to his father (Jose). Am I the only one bothered by the language used to describe Judalon Smith and him? She was his patient. He gave her drugs. He was sleeping with her. She has at alleged he assaulted her. There is no way you can spin that to make it ethical. She was his patient. But, everyone just call her, "his mistress". ugh the 90s were awful.

[@biancakarinacalderon3132]

You should react to the documentary "The Menendez Murders: Erik Tells All" so you can actually hear the sequence of events that lead to the killings. It actually shows why they might've been afraid for their lives.

[@BigBilly-io3kf]

California stopped the death penalty as a sentence many years ago. For those sentenced to death row prior to the ruling, about a year ago, Governor Newsom commuted their sentences to life in prison with the possibility of parole.

[@DoctorElliottCarthy]

Interesting. Is it stopped in practice or also actually now banned in law?

[@BigBilly-io3kf]

@ Banned by California state law. What I should have written was, “…without the possibility of parole.” The State of Texas is notorious for its implementation of the death penalty…and carrying it out. It’s commonly found in the southern states as well, which have the highest crime rates in the country, so the possibility of the death penalty isn’t a deterrent. Love the channel. Appreciate all the time, effort, and hard work going into these videos. Greetings from San Francisco. Hope you enjoyed your time here. And congrats on your channel’s growth and success.

[@meganwilliams7434]

The new da is trying to bring it back I hope he doesn’t win there are so many cases of people being wrongfully convicted and then killed and once that’s done there’s no going back at least with a sentence it can be changed

[@KayosHybrid]

Victims of abuse, it starts to appear, are often punished with continued compounded trauma by the aberrant nature of their response to their treatment by the world - often to simply survive under intolerable circumstances. It feels a little hopeless, the world can feel like it doesn’t care about you and that you don’t matter.

[@DoctorElliottCarthy]

I can see exactly where you're coming from. For perpetrators of violence, many have also been victims of trauma and struggle to reconcile that their victim and perpetrator identities are actually linked, not mutually exclusive

[@wmdkitty]

@@DoctorElliottCarthy Wrong. Perpetrators of violence will say anything to make their acts okay, and that includes lying for sympathy. REAL survivors NEVER WANT OTHERS TO SUFFER AS THEY HAVE, and DO NOT PERPETRATE ABUSE ON OTHERS.

[@ChronicGoblinQueen]

Exactly. Personality disorder diagnoses are (more often than not) given to people with complex trauma, further giving society "reasons" to punish them

[@MissBlueEyeliner]

I wouldn’t be interested to hear your take on Aileen Wurnos and the fact that she was out to death despite being very obviously mentally unwell. Her last interview in particular is shocking.

[@KateRobinson-hj1zt]

I really recommend more Ted lasso btw, the episodes Man City, sunflowers, and Mom city focus more on mental health etc :)

[@Acko_Taco]

I can understand your stance on cameras inside courtrooms, however I have to politely disagree. I watch alot of court cases, and in America we desperately have to have them. I would argue they are vital to protect the integrity of the courts. Personally just this year alone I have watched 5 cases (high ish profile) where the courts or some member of the judiciary (Defense or State attorneys) or even the Court reporters, other staff members have fundamentally changed the outcomes with their behavior. For example the Georgia case of Young Thug, that judge would have never been caught. The texting judge in Oklahoma that was presiding over the m*rder of a toddler. And Karen Reed from Massachusetts case. That judge has been bluntly biased from the start. Cameras in America even if they case some problems are a vital part of the process. Individuals both in America and abroad cannot have confidence in the American Judiciary System if they cannot see what happened for their own eyes. At the end of the day, the media wants to sell newspapers or gartner clicks. Which means it is in their best interest to lie or fabricate facts. With all that being said, I absolutely love your videos Dr. Elliott and cannot thank you enough for your excellent coverage & education. Personally I have learned so much about myself. So thank you I throughly and wholeheartedly hope the Mendez brothers get at least a new trial, it’s been long enough they deserve parole and to live their lives. I hope their case shines a light on others sitting behind bars with unfair & unjust punishments. I don’t know anything about the UK correctional system, but here in America it is absolutely horrific. And with the incoming government it will only get worse as they will lock up more women & LGBT and anyone else they deem a problem. I’m truly worried for the future of this country

[@darkermatter125.35]

Psychiatrists and therapists very much CAN be put in a scenario to break confidentiality. With abusive parents, even the most upstanding doctor with end up trapped in that, because the parent will make signing away your confidentiality a condition of allowing you to get therapy. Because therapy is so expensive, that can often be the only options, or the child is already accustomed to that kind of boundary breaking. There is also the Christian therapist (not to be confused with a therapist who is religious), that many extremely religious parents use. These people are not technically real therapists, so they are not legally bound by confidentiality the same way. They can report anything they want back to the parents. Their therapist was HORRIBLE, and based on what I have seen, manipulated this case a LOT by twisting things they said. Not to mention the fact that when you know everything is reported back, you do not share the things you need to discuss the most. They needed a lot of help, but they could not get it, as it was just out of reach. This case was truly mishandled, and I am glad at least some saw through a show describing them as "monsters," and could see that there was a lot more going on.

[@aviendha1154]

Yeah my mum stopped me from going to therapy at all as a kid, partially because it was expensive, but also because she thought I was just making things up. When I wasn’t, and I hadn’t even begun to open up about all the issues I was having. It made everything so much harder for me, and I always wonder if I could have avoided my CPTSD diagnosis if I’d gotten the help I needed, and my mum had been given better coping mechanisms for me as a kid. Her own shame around mental health damaged both of our lives.

[@mitchellhodgemeyer1950]

I don’t know about other countries, but in Canada ‘intent’ comes down to the ability to have coherent thought. If you were delusional, you could be found to have no ability to form intent, but short of that becomes problematic (accidents and self-defense notwithstanding).

[@DoctorElliottCarthy]

You certainly can be found to have no ability to form intent in the UK based on symptoms like delusion, but its rare, and the threshold to prove it is high. Psychosis often reduced culpability, but rarely eliminates it entirely

[@mitchellhodgemeyer1950]

@@DoctorElliottCarthy - Yup, that’s pretty much the same. High bar. Then again, life is parle in 20 years, so an actual life sentence is likewise rare.

[@fleurdelotus1045]

They killed out of fear of imminent danger to their lives All 6 expert psychologist world renowned determined that because of years of abuse since the age of 6 that lyle and erik suffered from the "Battered Woman Syndrome" by conclusion then it was of imperfect self-defense. then in the eyes of the law they are victims but not murderers and what they committed is considered self-defense. People suffering from battered woman syndrome after yearsof sexual, physical and psychological violence have such a significant impact on their state of mind that they develop anxiety, a feeling of helplessness and a perception inability to escape the abusive relationship that they can preemptively attack their abusers even when resting, sleeping or to when resting, sleeping or to avoid a situation in which they cannot protect their lives adequately

[@Progressive_Canadian]

While watching Dr. Elliot's KZbin channel, I noticed he emphasized that 'trust is the most important thing' in the patient-therapist relationship. As someone diagnosed with severe Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), I found this perspective concerning. Trust can be nearly impossible for many with BPD due to deep-rooted fears of abandonment and emotional sensitivity. A therapy model that assumes trust from the start risks alienating BPD patients. This is why Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is so effective-it doesn’t demand trust upfront. Instead, it focuses on building coping skills, emotional regulation, and distress tolerance. Trust, if it develops, comes through consistent, non-judgmental support and results-not because it’s expected or required. Therapists working with BPD need to understand that trust can’t be a starting point; it’s something earned through the therapeutic process itself. I hope mental health professionals keep this in mind when designing their approaches.

[@staticmass6794]

An explanation is not an excuse. But it does inform on the state of mind

[@leonormorais8509]

In Portugal, the maximum prison sentence is 25 years.

[@flickhunter8900]

In india max 14 yrs

[@TheoSwinford]

Would you possibly explain what you mean by moral injury? I've heard the term before but honestly I find the definition vague and don't really understand what constitutes it.

[@JL_Pope]

6:08 some officers shouldn’t have their badge theres other types of officers that I have personally met in my time in my last program that bring me such joy to know they look over my community, they are hard working and never stop educating themselves and we NEED more officers like them everywhere

[@michaelthomas3821]

there's live testimony from the two. i watched a little of it and am scared to hear more. your take might be interesting.

[@dechezhaast]

I’m early, WE LOVE YOU!❤

[@DanielFolsom]

Awesome video! Ugh small nitpick (sorry): Arendt's thesis wasn't really that Eichmann was just following orders. Her views are often conflated with Stanley Milligram. In fact, Arendt noted that Eichmann actually disobeyed orders and tried to accelerate the extermination of the Jews towards the end of he war (when Himmler, hoping for some post-War leniency, made a last ditch order instructing that Nazi guards act as the Jews' "nursemaids," Arendt noted that Eichmann "sabatog[ed]" the order).

[@IAmFJ1]

I think the extent of damage this whole system of media live streaming cases for entertainment causes is even wider. The first time I heard about their case, I was a teenager and Oprah was having a series of episodes about them. I think because their case was being reviewed or something. I'm not sure. I would watch the show when nobody was home and basically cry start to finish because it was plain and obvious to me that they were telling the truth but the way I remember it, these people were making this show just to convince everybody in the US that they were liars and they didn't have a right to solve the problem this way even if it was true and they actually did it because they wanted their inheritance not because they were legit scared those monsters might interpret their resistance as possible threat to their impeccable false image and off them first. They were on a mission on that show. Relentless. To me that level of certainty was amazing. I felt the brothers were telling the truth but even as a (I dk 12-13-14 yo) teenager I knew enough to think to myself I wouldn't put on a show and invite "experts" to convince other people they do or don't deserve to die in prison. And the damage I mentioned, I was dealing with something myself and never dared to say anything to anyone. I'm not saying Oprah is the reason. I already knew I wouldn't but it was a horror show of judgment and callousness that before I saw the show, already watched in my brain. They might judge me, not believe me, defend the abuser, make it my fault, etc. And at the same time, I actually didn't want to make them share my pain. I felt bad for my family. Imagine that. I eventually told them when I felt like the guy's latest victims are his own young kids. And my worries and thought loops? Which happened? Something I didn't even consider all those years as a possibility. They did all of the above and then some. My own mother actually told me after a while that maybe it happened but people make mistakes and we forgive, so I'm inviting him and his wife over to tell him to apologise and I panicked but not as much as a moment later when I heard they're on the way. Anyway, that is how when I heard their testimonies I knew what they said was going though their mind was true and why they couldn't just turn up at the police station even as adults and say, excuse me please, the monsters who abused me my whole life won't let up, let's sit together and find a solution if at all possible, it's getting to be a bit much for me, I'm thinking bad thoughts. I knew they were in a prison in their minds already before even doing anything to anyone and though the violent solution never came to my mind with the description of what a powerful horrifying manipulative monster the dad was, it made a lot of sense even if they didn't think they were in physical mortal danger because there was no fleeing that guy and his prison.

[@IAmFJ1]

I forgot were I was going with the damage. All these years tv shows, books, or documentaries about such subjects didn't have that much of an effect on me but now I know their story and how they were treated is part of mine too. I hadn't even thought about them for years and when I saw they made a show, I tried to watch it and after so so so long had a panic attack and it was the worst one I've ever experienced. I have never felt this close to actual death while having an attack. I didn't try to watch the rest of it but I'm sure there must be others in the same position as me but this time maybe the new point of view people now have and the change in the narrative could help someone? I don't know. You tell me. The whole thing is incredibly sad.

[@rodzalez3549]

Silver linings playbook reaction

[@Frukthjalte]

Regarding why stuff like this is televised: while I agree with you that showing the entire thing on TV is… odd… I’ve read the argument that it’s a way of teaching the public about the court and it’s processes (as well as the individual’s rights in a court of law, I guess). And while I’m sure that many of the people using that argument are just TV execs wanting to defend their source of income, I have seen it being brought up in academic papers/studies as well. Pair that with the fact that over 50% of Americans have very poor reading comprehension skills* (as a consequence of the unequal access to education, not because being American makes you inherently stupid, as some people seem to think), and I can sorta see the technical need for channels like courttv. * 54% of Americans between the ages of 16-74 were estimated to read below a 6th grade level in a Gallup analysis published in 2020. There are obvious flaws with every quantitative study, so the estimate isn’t to be taken as absolute gospel. Still, it is unlikely that a theoretically perfect study would get significantly different estimates of literacy skills, and although the headlines the Gallup analysis generated were definitely weirdly alarmist in tone, it is an unfortunate truth that the U.S. educational system is deeply flawed and unequal, at best.

[@Salee-ze7qt]

Watching the trial as my first source and then becoming aware of the coverage in media including what the prosecution put out into the world makes one lose trust in media and justice system. Gaslighting and distortion was fed to society and there is no way it hasn't effected the jury and second trial (male jurors apperantly attacking female jurors who had voted for manslaughter according to the factual evidence of the case with sexist remarks while having no counterproof for their position of first degree murder). The whole case and how it was handled is a reflection that abuse systems & bullys run the country and the bothers were used as sacrificial lambs to make an example out of them to every single victim & vulnerable person that they will be put "back into their place" and with them everyone who was witness to the injustice...

[@Vic-wic]

do you think you'd ever react to gypsy rose? because loads of people have mixed/negative opinions about her

[@legaultrants]

Something that generally bothers me is how much 90's era homophobia played a role in this, but like even in modern times few mention that. Lester Kuriyama's last remarks during the (i don't know it's name, the jury was deliberating but has a question or something) were so homophobic and, to me, it says a lot that the female jurors and male jurors came down with different opinions. And let us not get into Pam Bozanich's statements about who can and cannot be SA'd. yikes.

[@WileCoyoteMoncure-Smith]

I'd assume there are more people who have been violated when they are young than there are violated adults who have unalived their violators. Not only this, the crimes committed were heinous, premeditated, and animalistically brutal. Do you really think people who have done what they have done should be rewarded with resentencing? What is this telling other children who are experiencing the same situation as they did? Just go ahead and unalive them?

[@canuckcriticism2226]

Can you react to Mr robot. Particularly season 4 episode 7.

[@jolinkarlsson8569]

People compares this with the Gypsy Rose case cause there’s similar things there but the brothers got way more years and gypsy is out also probably cause she’s a girl too she got a lesser sentence then the guy who k#lled her mom he got life without parole too

[@DoctorElliottCarthy]

Your point raises a bigger thought of if and how society treats similar forms of violence differently based on whether the perpetrator is male or female. There's some very interesting research on this issue and how societal and cultural values come into it

[@catsmom129]

@@DoctorElliottCarthyI’d love a video discussing this research

[@hennersmusicreviews58]

Also while she did not actually murder her mother herself, but had an accomplice, this would have contributed to her sentence being lessened.

[@beqamarsagishvili6988]

This documentary left out several important information, I wish it was done better. They should be free.

[@ImCaptainCabbage]

How can you say the term “hysterical” is sexist when it was a woman describing two dudes as being that? Get a grip.

[@fideebawa]

1st, women can be and often are sexist and misogynistic. And 2nd, he was saying that the origins of the term "hysteria" was misogynistic, and tbh, continues to be a cop out for psychiatrists/psychologists to treat women in a proper manner. Just because the term has been used on men, it doesn't mean that the meaning and context of the word disappears.

[@ImCaptainCabbage]

@ Well she was actually describing a fella so it couldn’t have been misogyny. And I’ve heard that word being applied to dudes just as much as women. In fact the most popular use I ever heard of the word is “hysteria” by Def Leppard. Which the singer (a guy) says he has “hysteria when you’re near”.