The Origin And Identity Of The Mind Flayer Explained In Stranger Things Season 4 Volume 2

I review, breakdown and explain the origin and identity of The Mind Flayer in Stranger Things Season 4 Volume 2. I discuss how it is connected to Vecna whilst I also review the characters and react to the question 'Did Vecna create The Mind Flayer?'
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Music: LEMMiNO - Moon
#StrangerThings #StrangerThingsSeason4 #StrangerThings4

[@BrainPilot]

What do you think the involvement of The Mind Flayer is going to be in Stranger Things Season 5? Comment your thoughts below!

[@CaptainHalal648]

I think it could take another form as Nancy say a huge monster with a gaping mouth

[@kamerondowning8294]

I think the Mind Flayer will be more used in ST5. And I don’t believe Vecna will not give up until he takes over Hawkins and other dimensions. So I think the Mind Flayer will be used more for ST5.

[@Flipitmixit]

I think it will ultimatelu turn against Vecna and consume it because it doesnt appreciate being controled

[@AngryGoats555]

I think there’s a good chance that Vecna will merge with the Mind Flayer in ST5. With his body being so severely destroyed/damaged, he’s going to realize his full potential like he talked about, and use the Mind Flayer as his final form

[@alexnclips6790]

Yes, it is more powerful compared to vecna

[@OnTheHorizon-]

The fact Henry talked about this world being “untouched by humanity” as a good thing as they would ruin it, yet he literally is doing what he said humanity would do by controlling everything

[@rzv7758]

Yes but he sees himself as a god not a human. He is a major hypocrite.

[@jarnold]

most of his character is just him contradicting himself

[@henryvirtum1520]

Best villains contradict themselves to be fair,lmao

[@henryvirtum1520]

Also it shows Henry didn't just fuck up our world but he fucked up the upside down world aswell

[@tamifluboy]

that’s because he’s just a psychopath who pretends to have some “grand vision” about society and the “evil humans that waste time” and all that. he’s just like the joker, who makes some stupid excuses to explain his lunacy

[@sambathtub]

I kind of feel sorry for the demagorgon and other upside down creatures. They were clearly just minding their own business until veccers hive minded them and made them killing machines.

[@vinnbalor]

Damn , you’re right tho

[@lzxyoung_wrxzl8016]

Well I think they where already carnivores anyways so they would eat people

[@narutotrickzxtv3D]

@@lzxyoung_wrxzl8016 unless they were canabals there was nothing else around for them then to eat, it looked like.

[@ultragalacticgamer7195]

@@narutotrickzxtv3D considering we only saw a few minutes in total of this “orginal” upside down. I dont think we can make that conclusion yet

[@Benet380]

I mean, Dustin had his own pet demi-dog so I guess they were hostile

[@AC-ze1nh]

I know some people are disappointed the Mind Flayer wasn't the big bad but I don't think this means the Upside Down has no personality, no will of its own. Remember Dart in S3? He formed a bond with Dustin and remembered him. This shows me that 001 has hijacked their minds and they may rebel against him in the future. We are not done learning about the Upside Down

[@scoposteve8470]

I'm just upset that they are making Vecna a higher power

[@genx7006]

I was thinking the same thing. That Vecna is a dictator in this formerly unspoiled world. Eleven may defeat Vecna in Season 5 by causing all the creatures to rise up against him. Sort of an independence movement for the Upside Down.

[@scoposteve8470]

@@genx7006 nah screw that. The mind flayer is the dictator of the upside down. Making Vecna the leader of it honestly ruins the entire show, and ruins everything they built up throughout the series. But most of all it ruins the mind flayer. The mind flayer was a lot cooler when he seemed to be a ancient entity who controlled the upside down and they could still go down that road and I’m praying they do because the show depends on that

[@idrisahmed2659]

@@scoposteve8470 yea man exactly ... Wats the point of building up everything wen a villain from one season is the big bad .... I mean here exists an entire world with dark forces n creatures ... Wat abt exploring its origins ... Wat abt explaining how the demogorgons came into being .... N how instead of being killed Henry was sent to this world .... I don't want to c El vs vecna again .....

[@bggsz4]

@@scoposteve8470 Agreed. Sure, the Duffers didn't have a planned story, but ST2 and ST3 very heavily portrayed the Mind Flayer as important, though not as a yet to be revealed pawn or weapon, but as a big antagonist. Now everything in ST4 demotes all of that development, and boosts Vecna's instead. The monologue with Billy alone all but negates human involvement, that truly sounded like a creature from an entirely different reality trying to break in, not some boy who was outcast from our and wants to return to destroy it. Also that who returning plot is so hypocritical when Vecna himself says he liked the Upside Down for being "unspoiled by mankind" and yet he changed it as a human would and is doing the same to our dimension. Like why not just stay there and not change anything. The constant contradicting in his goals is another thing that bothers me about the Vecna being the big bad situation. He hasn't shown himself as very worthy of that title.

[@notionvfx_]

i kinda wish the mind flayer was the main villain, but they might pull off some big plot twist next season, like the upside down was never being controlled but was telling vecna what to do, i really hope we get a lot more backstory next season about what the upside down was before vecna went there

[@LarryBudd]

Same even if it wasnt main villian i wish it was like an already existing thing not a vecna creation. Yes i know the particles were there but the show implies that vecna gave the mindflayer the spiderlike form and its purpose. I feel that not having vecna already be a being that wants to invade the real world and rather operating under vecna kind of cheapens it

[@AJReyes7039]

Vecna always gives me the "main villain" vibes.

[@kamranki]

I think they have established pretty clearly that Vecna is the villian and was responsible in recruiting the shadow particles to create the Mindflayer. I don't know what other twist can they justify in Season 5.

[@notionvfx_]

@@AJReyes7039 but the mind flayer felt like the actual mysterious entity that was the villain

[@EdTheCreator]

idk them fighting shadow particles is kinda anticlimactic

[@nex_ialist06]

I prefer the mind flayer being an ancient powerful being. It's more interesting and creepy than just a human with powers

[@roddur1000]

well it literally was an ancient powerful being, vecna just give him a shape

[@SumilatsFansReadURLs]

@Fea†her Sorry, where did they confirm it was canon? I may be misremembering but all I saw was Vecna using his telekinesis to move the shadow particles in to a different shape, nothing beyond that.

[@killerinstinct9954]

It would be even dumber if some kids and moms with no training somehow defeat an ancient and powerful being, so let it be a dumb human with powers.

[@SumilatsFansReadURLs]

@Fea†her Ah, bit of miscommunication. I had assumed you meant Vecna was the mindflayer. And also I thought the "right" was sarcastic.

[@gedludek8245]

@@killerinstinct9954 NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF LOVE AND MOTHERHOOD it can defeat every protomolecule.

[@theonechannel4236]

There is still no explanation as to how Henry got his powers. If he was born with them then essentially he is the first human born with super powers which is strange since it has no explanation. And if he wasnt born with them who gave them to him? it wasnt Brenner bc Brenner found out about him after he made the news by killing his parents

[@karisno7798]

I keep thinking this, but I don't think it'll be addressed it

[@notionvfx_]

it probably has something to do with the upside down or his mother( cause his mum always new he had powers somehow and she hated them). im predicting there gonna do a plot switch/twist and make something in the upside down the actual villain, cause where is vecna now, he cant go back to the creel house and i dont think his body transformed, and even if it did, it wouldnt really make sense, and maybe in s5 he ends up finding something else in the upside down far more sinister then him

[@karisno7798]

@@notionvfx_ yeah I thought they might do a little plot twist because it seemed like the demogorgans existed prior to him controlling them/ the whole realm seemed to have existed before El cast him there

[@CrashDunning]

There's no explanation for Eleven's powers either though. Some people in the world are just born with them. Edit: Stop replying saying they experimented on her mom and that's how she got them. That's not an actual explanation of where psychic powers in this world specifically come from. It's not like anyone who gets tortured gains them, so clearly we don't have an exact reason why they exist and we probably never will.

[@hamm8934]

It’s the spiders. The Mindflayer is a different entity that communicated with vecna via the spiders. This video is missing key exposition in episode 7.

[@nathanforbes8417]

I like this explaination because it showed how arrogant vecna is and how he believes that he is above going to the right side up himself which is why he has grown more powerful each season by sending more powerful enemies each time due to the failures.

[@Nadine2cool]

You are right but at the end he knew that no creature or enemy is stronger than him so he decided to steel 011’s power of opening gate’s to the upside down and make the mankind extinct.

[@jacobtennyson9213]

But Vecna didn't create the Mind Flayer. It's a Shadow Creature in the sky that Vecna approached and gave its new form.

[@MrOasis316]

@@jacobtennyson9213 no it’s always been there Vecna is controlling it to help make his plan a reality.

[@KC-py5vq]

@@jacobtennyson9213 fucking thank you. I’m so tired of people saying vecna created the flayer, because he didn’t. The mindflayer was already there in the upside down for who knows how long. They have more of a symbiotic relationship

[@sunmi2539]

!!!

[@ConfydeMusic]

My interpretation, for what it's worth: - The dark shadow cloud entity is the force of nature acting as the central node of the Upside-down hive mind. It can recruit host bodies into its hive mind, as we saw with Will in s2, the Flayed in s3 and the Demogorgons in Russia in s4 - 001 has the ability to consume and absorb the powers of his victims. Upon arrival in the upside down, he used his physic powers to connect with this shadow cloud and therefore control it and the hive mind's organisms (demogorgons etc), as well as giving the cloud its spider-like shape we knew as the Mind Flayer - Before 001 entered the Upside-down, the creatures were fairly dosile and passive, we see him encounter a demogorgon but it doesn't attack or even acknowledge him. The Demogorgons we know would immediately ravage and eat the first living being they see, but this one did not. The Flayer initially was a formless cloud, 001 turned it into predatory spider shape. - It is 001/Vecna who imbibed this aggression into the upside-down creatures through his intentions to conquer the human world. This might also explain the realm's shift from the yellow lightning sky to the red one, and a perverted, dead version of Hawkins we know of as the Upsidedown for most of the show. - In s5 I think it is likely we will see 001 invade our world through the new gate - with not only an army of upside down creatures but also the main shadow monster form of the Mind Flayer, as he tried to do in s2. With the shadow monster entering our world, all lifeforms including humans can be easily recruited into the Flayer's hive mind and put under 001's control. 001 himself will likely remain in the upside down, commanding from afar as his physical body is frail and burned. - One final note - I think it is not a coincidence that Vecna's Curse results in the eyes being gouged out of his victims. All the creatures we've encountered from the upside-down so far *have no eyes*. As he mentioned to 11, he wants to turn the human world into something far more beautiful, i.e the beauty he sees in the upside down and its inhabitants.

[@ogluqqychess4452]

Hopefully we can see that shot from the poster of the mind flayer being fully inside hawkins since the big boy gate opened up all the way

[@mr_man1236]

I think that’s a really good point of view and idea for the future

[@CelltheGREAT]

STS4 was so good. And you definitely made some great points! Me personally as far as the story should go. It’s truly being set up for some sort of end of the world apocalyptic battle. And Hawkins is ground zero. excited for S5.

[@dmin5782]

Well, the Upside Down already had red lightning and storms if you rewatch the scene where Vecna got banished by Eleven in ep 7.

[@dmin5782]

@Fea†her It was. Whenever someone go through one of the gates, they go straight to the Upside Down (like Steve and co). They don't have to go through a "place between realms"

[@DiscoKing02]

Mixed on this. I kinda dig the whole spider connection, but at the same time I much preferred season 2 mind flayer over season 3, or what they unveiled it to actually be in season 4. More of a omnipresent god ruling over another dimension, rather than something that actually has personal beef. Vecna didn't create the dark particles of course, he just shaped them into the spider form, so I'm kind of hoping the particles themselves are the mind flayer, and are actually manipulating Vecna. Basically hoping the flayer is like "alright dude make me into a spider lol, you can control my particles for now but I'm just gonna use you long term for your powers."

[@hampuskarrlander7492]

I think that the hivemind already existed with the dark particles, though it most likely didn't have any purpose, intent or agenda. Vecna simply saw a way of shaping this entity and giving it a purpose, which in turn combined the particles and Vecna into a single being. Think of what Brenner said: "When Henry kills, he consumes his victims and their abilities" He basically did the same think to the particles, which is why he shaped it into a spider form. Now that the gate has been opened and the two dimensions are merging, Vecna/The Flayer can enter as its true form, the Shadow Monster. These are just some thoughts I had 🤣

[@zhouxu7382]

@@hampuskarrlander7492 it’s very good to be just thoughts because it adds together by what you are saying

[@DiscoKing02]

@@hampuskarrlander7492 Really nice point! I totally agree with that.

[@slackerzero7883]

@@hampuskarrlander7492 that’s pretty much what I was thinking too; the flayer always existed in the upside down but vecna was able to control it/ merge with it and through that gained the ability to spread his influence (establish the hive mind) through the particles that compose the flayer.

[@safcjoe7062]

I hope not the mind flayer I only found cool because of its design. Remember in s2 when it came through the gate to attack El? Just shows that the humans with telekinetic abilities rule over the mind flayer.

[@Diamond_Squid]

I see the mind flayer as a more omniscient force than anything else - an immortal creature with no desire for anything until the Vecna arrived and weaponised it. but in doing so, gave it a consciousness. It is more a kin to a force of nature that has always existed until the Vecna/Henry ironically pushed his human desires onto it

[@tannerfishalow4894]

Finally dude someone dosint think the flyer is separate stil, the particles are probably what make up those light particles, not good nor bad, a force of causality light and dark, meant to be used like a mask, exactly like light and dark from destiny 2 with the main villain using the “darkness” for evil just like vecna with the mind flyer

[@errata2412]

Yeah thinking the mind flayer as a force of nature that gets used works

[@AC-ze1nh]

I thought this was explicitly stated in the show but there does seem to be some confusion within the fan base. Not sure about how much consciousness the Mind Flayer has on its own yet, but they had to save something for S5

[@xaoc6084]

@@tannerfishalow4894 It is clearly implied it is a different being of some kind. Vecna simply reshaped it and by further extent gave it a purpose and vision.

[@tannerfishalow4894]

@@xaoc6084 definitely isint another being, it seems to be meaningless purposeless it’s a dust cloud maybe a hive mind not sure if it was before or after vecna came

[@YourHealthTV]

In season 5 we will learn more about Upside Down and its origins.

[@johnnyflawless]

Also, the sky is blue.

[@SchlaftaterNrzZz]

I wont because i have never Watched a single Episode and after this random Video im less interested

[@michaelb6510]

@@SchlaftaterNrzZz word but you decided to comment? very odd

[@TheChameleon2008]

No shit Einstein

[@SchlaftaterNrzZz]

@@michaelb6510a commentary section IS where people comment Whats odd?

[@dusanpavlovic5891]

This is my theory. The Mind Flayer is still the "big bad" and not Vecna's creation. I think that they want us to believe that Vecna is behind it all so they can pull off another big plot twist in season 5. I think the Mind Flayer is an ancient, mystical force, some kind of a godlike being that created the Upside Down and the Hivemind. The Mind Flayer consumes life and we know this because the Demogorgons, Demodogs and Demobats eat their prey (like in the Hawkins Lab, Soviet prison and the Upside Down) and because of the last scene in S4 (the grass and the flowers dying). The Mind Flayer wants to break into our world and devour it/take it over, but can't do it without help and this is where Henry/Vecna comes into play. The Mind Flayer, as we know, can control people's minds. He sensed Henry's hatred of humanity, controlled his mind and gave him powers, manipulated him into killing his family and thus triggered the chain of events which led to Henry ending up in the Upside Down. The Mind Flayer then turned Henry into Vecna. Vecna opened the gates and now the Mind Flayer can leave the Upside Down and enter our world. Vecna was just a means for the Mind Flayer to reach its goal. I know this is a bit of a stretch, but it seems possible and in all honesty I prefer this over the whole "Vecna rules the Upside Down" thing which feels a bit cheap.

[@cthulhurage5598]

I think this theory is within reason. I thought the same thing myself. Also vecna is so powerful so its an even scarier thought to see that he isnt even the strongest thing from the upside down.

[@dmacg5520]

Well the mind flayer regardless is a ancient power, not good or evil, just an tapped power, this is why the upside down flash backs show the sky’s as yellow representing the realm wasn’t originally evil, the mindflayer is still its own entity but is now evil due to it adapting to vecnas motives

[@pokemonovice9758]

I hope you all are right. Henry Creel cant be this super powerful interdimensional creature/consciousness full of evil and power/will to infect living beings and conquer/destroy the whole world...

[@pokemonovice9758]

@@cthulhurage5598 🤩

[@idrisahmed2659]

Yea exactly even Dustin hints towards the same thing ... It must have some imprtance or do the writers just chose to ignore that

[@amansonkar6019]

The dark mist was a type of "consciousness", henry manipulated it with his powers and later used it and the dark mist was also connected to all the bio creatures of upside-down!

[@user-qs9ps3hw6u]

Do you think el could gain control of it?

[@amansonkar6019]

@@user-qs9ps3hw6u may be she never confronted the mist, only it's pawns!

[@Christopher-yc5py]

I feel like the black smoke lured Henry like a moth to flame once he got there. The upside down seems massive and I think it’s a bit of a stretch that Henry just stumbled on it by coincidence. I also don’t think that something that powerful would just simply let a human control it. There’s another side to this

[@bigbangrafa8435]

It's implied that the "Shadow" wasn't even sentient, and that only when confronted with sentient life It became an entity per say. Henry simply gave It form and purpose, nothing more, If people like Brenner weren't playing God that thing would have forever stayed there, empty of meaning or counscience. On the other hand, It seemingly contradicts Itself when a your Henry already has some form of visions of a dark being in a dark dimension, which would imply that It somehow communicated with him and possibly accelerated the deterioration of his mental state. The Duffers are smart, they left It ambiguous on purpose so they can retcon It in the final season If they see It as necessary. I'm honestly more worried about the "Six Paths Naruto" moment that made Eleven literally bring Max back from the dead. If she did that with no clue of what she was doing (that's why Max is in a coma), just imagine what a 30 year-old Eleven would be able to do? Honestly, the "Power of Friendship" in this season made Fairy Tail and Dragon Ball look like the pinacle of writting, they literally defeated the bad guy with a "Love-Fueled" Super Sayan form.

[@emirinobambino]

I agree with you. In DnD lore, The Mind Flayer's job is to flay the mind's of it's victim--to trick them into thinking they're in control. Henry could be being used by the Mind Flayer but doesn't know it, as that is what the Mind Flayer does.

[@kyonsenzu8799]

THAT BEING SAID. the particles could have entered inside of will to save them from vecna. Warning the others whenever vecna is near. Think about it #11 is the only one who can beat #1 and set the particles free. The particles don't seem to have any evil intent more or less manipulated by evil Wich is vecna

[@kyonsenzu8799]

A realm not manipulated by humans beings nor our ideals. evil nor good never existed until henry appeared.

[@omogoloontefetse]

I just feel like this coming season might have some of the craziest potential plot twists ever. It would be a bit boring to find out that Vecna is the one moulding the Upside Down. I would love to see a scenario where the Mind Flayer is the actual villain and was actually using Vecna as a vessel this whole time to infiltrate the other side. There are also unanswered questions about the origins of 001's powers, which I would love to believe were given to him by the Mind Flayer/ Shadow entity.

[@Nadine2cool]

I think Henry creel was given those powers as a kid because he was the “chosen one” and the mind flayer has planned all of this before but the reason I don’t really believe this theory because vecna is the one who created the mind flayer it’s from his mind, but maybe the mind flayer is still the main villain it’s just he waited for Henry to give him a form and he showed him what form he wanted to be when he was still a child.

[@notionvfx_]

THATS WHAT IM SAYINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@notionvfx_]

i really hope they do pull of a twist and not make it a boring season finale about "FrIeNdShIp AnD lOve KilLinG ThE EneMy" (the same enemy from season 4 btw, even tho every single season has the one theme going - to have a new villain)

[@Insanity-vv9nn]

If he made that perfect drawning…it means something is on his head, not him. It would make total sense for vecna to die early on season 5 knowing that he is just a puppet like he was with papa

[@kakashiuchiha3448]

Yeah, like the zetsu used indra and madara as vessel to get free kaguya otsutsuki in naruto

[@LucyAnna7384]

It created a story/reason having vecna the main bad guy, I think that’s why they did it, things throughout all makes sense now. They wanted to interlink everything together with the lab, eleven, brenner, the gate etc. I understand it would have been creepy having the mind flare the main bad guy rather than it being humanoid but it ties everything together giving motive with Vecna, he was arrogant and had deep issues with the right side up, there was reason as to why he wanted to take it over. All in which linking to eleven who gave him that passage to the upside down in the first , he was a threat before eleven even opened the gate when they came head to head in the lab, he had plans to take over even while being on the right side up, the upside just gave him the means to create what he and to expand his power. He was just waiting for it to be opened to pursue his goal which brennar made 11 do, Brennar being the control freak he is believing he could restore some of that power over Vecna.

[@gx_pro2277]

maybe hes not nancy said she saw a monster with a gaping mouth maybe that is the big bad

[@offwhitebombshelta6691]

I’m pretty sure everyone preferred what Dustin theorized in which The Mind Flayer was the god deity ruling the Upside Down and Vecna was his 5 star general leading his armies. Vecna ofc has more layers as a villain than The Mind Flayer as of rn but that could’ve changed in season 5, Vecna making TMF is my only gripe with season 4

[@bobsag1164]

Remember, they never explained how Henry(Vecna) got his powers in the first place. Also, the Duffer brothers said that the final season will be like Return of the Jedi. Based off of that statement alone, I’m pretty certain that Dustin’s theory still has a high probability of being correct, because in the Star Wars movies, Darth Vader is the main villain upfront but it’s really Darth Sidious that has been running the show. Vader was just a tool used by Sidious for his power, and in the end Vader finally realized this and sacrifices himself to save the galaxy and his son. I predict that it will be revealed that Henry was the first one to be flayed by The Mind Flayer, which could explain how he got powers in the first place somehow. Eleven will somehow break Henry’s mind from Mind Flayers control, Henry will sacrifice himself to destroy the mind flayer somehow since he has a connection to it while simultaneously working with Eleven to close the portals. Fulfilling how the duffer brothers said it will be like Return of the Jedi.

[@Joyexer]

They never really explained that he made mindflayer... This dark storm was just not shaped before. There might be more to it, then just Vecna making that thing...

[@lukaskotsifas8698]

It’s ironic to think how 001 talks about that man ruined life yet that is exactly what he did when he arrived to the upside down - (changing its way of life down there)

[@m3rl707]

That's what makes a good villain tbh. He has a God-complex and is hypocritical with a particular world view so he will do anything.

[@pokemonovice9758]

Did he? I hope the Mind Flayer being was controlling him since he was a kid and made his mind think all that

[@bigboypockets2041]

@@pokemonovice9758 I was thinking the same thing. Some people in the comments talking like venca the big bad guy but the mind flayer and his creatures had been there. I think venca made a deal with it to where’s it’s almost like a symbiotic relationship, not one dominants the other. I do think the mind flayer is an ancient being.

[@pokemonovice9758]

@@bigboypockets2041 Nice, sure. But I would like to think that the Flayer or shadow monster, is using Vecna, which would make more sense because: 1: the shadow monster is clearly the god of the dimension, and he has no reason to "do a deal" with a invading human and lower to his level, when he can just control him like he controls everyone with his hivemind. 2: The shadow monster has proven to have his own consciousness, when part of him was in Russia, and was able to escape and control the diactivated/sleeping Demogorgon and the Demodogs. 3: The shadow monster being infiltrated in our world, when they did experiments in the 50's, would explain the sudden corruption of a child Victor Henry, who suddenly got his power and became evil (with ideas like eradicate human species, or negative connotation against "time", among other things that dark overlord of other dimension would implant into Henry). It could've perfectly been that a portal open, and some particles got in or were brought into this dimension, and after experiments or after whatever series of circumstances ended up in the possession or mental-flaying of Henry Creel and also what gave him his powers and the twisted mind. All that would explain the origin of Eldritch powers into Henry, and subsequently the psychic abilities put into the rest of the kids after several experiments with Henry's DNA; and that will also give some reasonable explanation of why the portal to an specific dimension was opened in the first place, because Henry was somewhat part of the Mind-flaying Shadow Monster, reason why also you can see the black Eldritch tentacles in the outlines of the portal on the wall when One was starting to disintegrate, when 7-year-old Eleven sent him there using her powers. What Henry saw or not saw inside the "upsidedown", inside that dimension, it could've perfectly been the Shadow Monster playing tricks with his mind and plainly controlling him like it controlled Billy, Will, and the Demogorgons all along from season 1

[@lukaskotsifas8698]

@@pokemonovice9758 I see what your saying. However apparently people are saying that the “dust” was mindless and that 001 gave it a shape and mind.

[@fromkieran]

that 3 headed dragon in will’s painting defo gonna be something in s5, can feel it

[@garyabblott5815]

where is this 3 headed dragon? I can only remember him drawing the mind flayer and maybe demogorgon from DnD

[@reneec8959]

The present he gave to will, you know the paper he has rolled up ready to give to him

[@montanamaxxamillion]

Henry/One/Vecna

[@derrickg4267]

The mindflayer is Henry’s traumas that he manipulates through his entity as vecna to serve his will after being sent to the upside down by eleven. The more victims the bigger the shadow grows that’s why all his victims are consumed and a part of him.

[@macathedj]

I kinda hoped after seeing Henry drawing the Mind Flayer, that when El pushed him into that place yellow-ish place, it was his own imagination taking shape, so like that he was ,,trapped" in his own mind. All i'm thinking about still, that Vecna couldn't remodel the town without seeing it until El opened the gate, so i think it just got to be like that when that happened. (Henry disappeared in '79 and the place was stuck in '83 when they entered the place in season 4)

[@Simon25-17]

Yeah but why stop at 83 when he "visited" hawkins in 84 and 85. If he was busy after the door opened why do it in the first place

[@macathedj]

@@Simon25-17 I don't know, feels like they forgot major things to be explained (but Duffers said there will be small things hinted about the Upside-Down in the final season, hope it includes this thing as well)

[@maincardtv2659]

@@macathedj they mentioned the majority of season 5 is based on explaining the upside down and its origin, think they know they have questions to answer before the finale

[@brandonreed09]

Eleven was the one that inadvertantly recreated Hawkins in the Upsidedown. When she opened the main gate it caused the dimensions to overlap. Hence Hawkins was recreated in the Upsidedown but without the people and water. That's why the journal stopped on the day Will went missing, it was the same day that Eleven opened the gate. Nancy wouldn't know that, which is probably why she jumped to Will's abduction being on that day.

[@Simon25-17]

@@brandonreed09 yeah I thought about it too but they never explained that as far as I remember

[@user-xb5oz1jm3h]

I’m a little disappointed that the Mindflayer isn’t the real main villain because he was was seen as a final boss for Stranger Things and Vecna being his 5 star general was a better thing

[@wumbowyatt2300]

Also, they’ve already fought the mind flayer. So too be honest this is better

[@cookieking1996]

Ye same… it felt more terrifying as a viewer to know that Vecna is merely an extremely powerful subordinate to another even more powerful entity like the mind flayer. I’m disappointed and will be very tbh if it turns out he’s the primary antagonist without their being some larger force pulling the strings

[@keithfilibeck2390]

well as far as D&D goes, Vecna is a God, whereas Mindflayers are just high level monsters.

[@sammyboy_samik3554]

@Fea†her Exactly! People are using this excuse to make mind flayer the main villian again while it was just Dustin theorizing what connection would Vecna have to mind flayer and what is mind flayers goal (in season 2). They're also saying 001 didn't created mind flayer but just shaped it into spider. Like wtf? Sometimes I feel like these people didn't even watched the episode since it was clearly stated Vecna is mind flayer and mind flayer is Vecna.

[@scoposteve8470]

Fr. I really hate what they are doing and honestly it could ruin the entire franchise

[@vivnow7849]

Maybe the Mind flayer was the one who gave Henry his powers, and eventually openned the path to the other experiments. Maybe it chose Henry as a "chosen one", and when he arrived at The Upside Down, it added him into the hive mind, giving it an actual human consciousness and alligned its desire to spread to the normal World with Vecna's ideollogy.

[@verycoolman777]

My thoughts as well. We still don’t know where Henry got his powers from in the first place, maybe the mind flayer gave them to him with the intention that he would find the dormant mind flayer to restore them both. Maybe the flayer was too weak to act on its own accord, and it needed a symbiotic relationship with someone else. For all we know the mind flayer may still be the strongest entity - Henry had strong opinions on time and the world even as a young boy, these could have been installed into his brain by the flayer from a young age, Henry could just be an incarnation of the flayer, who knows ?

[@Nadine2cool]

Good theory

[@mustafazubair4389]

That would have been more realistic not the other way around..

[@aezurefx]

@@mustafazubair4389 we have to consider season 5.. they're probably containing the biggest plot twists and reveals for that season.

[@aezurefx]

@@mustafazubair4389 it was even said that season 4 hinted towards some big events in s5

[@kacmed]

that "darkness" he met in upside down seems more like some void lord/god who just made a pact with henry ... simply because it existed there (who knows how many milions years) before henry arrived and formed a shape which could help henry to process the contact (lovercraftian thing) so instead of being mind flayer, henry was using mind flayer's power to play his game (through his hive mind veins), check the world that mind flayer was residuing in ... no strange looking aura, no red lightnings in the sky, it has light, veins all around it (mind flayer was already spread there) ... so mind flayer created a copy of hawking for henry so he can terrorize the city, i highly doubt henry could create copy of the whole city, he is powerfull ... but not that much

[@tannerfishalow4894]

He’s used the particles to create it all it vast and grand something you couldint understand just like the others, the particles are a force of causality light and dark, vecnas wearing it like a mask for evil, for a change to create his dream, his ideals are to grand to not be the main villain

[@kacmed]

@@tannerfishalow4894 veins were already all over the place when henry arrived there (when demadog is displayed there, stop the clip and check the picture, veins are already there) ... demadogs too ... everything was already there, henry created nothing

[@sammyboy_samik3554]

I'm pretty sure mind flayer already existed before 001 as the cloud but it was basically brainless. No evil inside it. After 001 entered upside down he saw the cloud as opportunity to gain new form because it was clearly stated he doesn't want to be in his human form. He created perfect predator form he always seen as the superior the spider. Since then he started control mind flayer so every monster in upside down. I'm pretty sure Vecna was also the one who made upside down look like Hawkins. He kidnapped Will to gain his information about how Hawkins looks like and just like with mind flayer he shaped it to look like Hawkins. That explains how upside down Hawkins is stuck in season 1 form since that was the time Vecna created it thanks to Will.

[@kacmed]

@@sammyboy_samik3554 there is only 1 small problem with this theory ... he could read will mind to create hawkins ... but could create only things will had knowledge about ... but hawkins was perfect image of that town from that time period with even small details like nancy's diary entries - those are things he cant extract from will's mind also those veins were already there so everything was connected in upside down before henry arrived ... so i dont think mind flayer was brainless before henry, more like some plant ... living peacefully without interaction ... henry just used mind flayer's power and forced/or willingly help him to do things

[@sammyboy_samik3554]

@@kacmed I don't know then. Maybe Vecna knew how Hawkins looks like thanks to his powers when is he is about curse someone since it literally looks like he sees everything at the time. He could use this powers to find out how Hawkins looks like🤷

[@philipstefanov8392]

Ok, here's what I'm thinking: It's been clearly established that the mind flayer is a villian with an active role and a mind seperate from that of Vecna. How else would they explain posessed Billy not knowing El's name in season 3 (I didn't catch your name?), remember? We are either in for a big twist in s5 (e.g., mind flayer manipulating Vecna from the start), or they've shoehorned some new persona to be the main villian, essentially writing themselves into a corner.

[@justinvaldez4449]

I think the Vecna is the Mind Flayer. As for Billy not recognizing El in S3, I think he did, just did not reveal anything cause the Mind Flayer was trying to hide the fact that Billy was flayed. Him knowing El's name without Billy ever actually meeting her formally would be extremely exposing. But honestly we won't know until S5 comes out. I'm hype for whatever direction they chose.

[@roddur1000]

lol what why would he make controlled billly immediately say the name of somebody the real billy didnt meet

[@mo_munir3474]

No that has not been established at all. Did you even watch the show? It was clearly established that henry/001 has been in control this whole time. The mind/consciousness was Henry's from the beginning. The particles that make up the mind flayers physical form doesn't have consciousness. Its just a force of nature.

[@Buya17]

what I dont get is what is the upside down? is it an alternate dimension? or was it created by henry some how

[@justinvaldez4449]

@@Buya17 I think the upside down always existed. El just sent Henry there, and it seemed like a dimension that was minding its own business until Henry ended up there and took over everything

[@thinkfighttalk2403]

You know it'd be cool, and make sense, if "The Shadow" wasn't sapient and lacked a form yet so it created a symbiotic relationship with Vecna. It would enhance his powers and allow him to connect with the Upside-Down and in return it could have an actual shape and consciousness. I just prefer the idea of the Mind Flayer actually being a powerful eldritch force that it's been shown to be. Unless it was created when Eleven created the portal the Upside-Down, The Shadow should be older than anything in the human world.

[@kalyambamhango4548]

IKR. I kinda hope that Veccna is revealed to be a puppet of the mind flayer, that the spiders was the upside down influencing him to bring it into the real world, and that's why he snapped mentally. Kinda like a warp God from 40k

[@nicholascahyadi2770]

I think Vecna and the mind-flayer are just the same person. When he said he wants to transcend his human form he probably took conscience of the shadow and act as the mind-flayer, since the way he speaks through Billy in season 3 really sounds like Henry. The reason why the mind-flayer is not in season 4 was because henry went back to his physical form to open the portals between the worlds now that he harnessed the powers of eleven to open portals after the layer took them in season 3. The same was the case of why Will couldn't see Vecna in seasons 2 and 3. And for season 5, Henry will likely take the shape of the mind-flayer since Steve, Nancy and Robin destroyed his vecna body. I presume the body turned into shadow particles as we don't see a trail of fire afterwards. So the main villain of the entire show is Henry but we'll see him as the mind-flayer in it's final form for season 5.

[@notionvfx_]

yh but what about the trapped particles in russia?

[@zhouxu7382]

@@notionvfx_ that trapped shadow in russia is probably back in the upside down.and the other monsters are dead

[@sfecuzzo727]

@@notionvfx_ the trapped mf brought back the demadogs n creatures that was in Russia that harper them killed

[@Nadine2cool]

Makes sense

[@nicholascahyadi2770]

@@notionvfx_ I think the particles is what you may say is the life force of the upside down. It was said that the shadow particles went into the demodogs inside the glass cases. So they were likely harvested by the russians when they perform surgery on the dogs.And the reason they were moving around is because they are alive. And I feel like the particles may tie into season 5 as a way to revive max.

[@Waywind420]

I kind of liked the idea of the mind flayer just being an evil entity from a different dimension who for whatever reason has a way to get to the human world. A creature that can't be reasoned with or really defeated that has probably existed for eons

[@dream8870]

literally the best type, it isn’t even innately evil, it just wants to consume all and everything

[@Waywind420]

@@dream8870 Yep, and we don't need to know the origins of it. We could postulate as to whether there's spiritual beings out there in the universe or come up with scientific answers...part of fantasy is about the unknown.

[@RonW4684]

Exactly, it has expanded to all 'corners' of the upside down, and now it has learned of the 'rightside up' and wants to expand there too. Like a virus.

[@SamLoser2]

Season 2&3 made the Mind Flayer feel like this ancient, otherworldly evil beyond human understanding. So to find out it is just a human creation is very, very disappointing to me.

[@dmacg5520]

It’s not a human creation, it’s still an ancient power just adapted to follow vecnas thoughts

[@pokemonovice9758]

@@dmacg5520 Still very lame and disappointing... So that god-like and other-wordly great being, was instantly and easily controlled by a moribund man that was a mentally-ill kid that never went to therapy but somehow was born in psychic powers? It would ruin the whole show and the Stranger Things mysterious and terrifying plot/lore

[@leosbellgalvez6368]

@@pokemonovice9758 agreed

[@scoposteve8470]

@@pokemonovice9758 thats what ive been saying. The villain of this show should always be a force of nature like the mind flayer

[@lXlElevatorlXl]

Maybe the mind flayer is like a psychological parasites that can’t do anything on his own and needs a host So when vecna found him he was in stasis and he did not form him but rather woke him up from his stasis He may was in stasis because he basically already corrupted the dimensions he was found by vecna because the planet seems very lifeless The demogorgons where like vecna people just some kind of humanoid other dimension being (that’s why they form Mirros kind of humans they have arms and legs like humans and seem intelligent and they may be transformed by the mindflayer to killer slaves helping him to conquer the upside down)that were twisted and corrupted by the mindflayer Because the demogorgons seems to be a biological lifeform similiar to humans while the mind flayer seems to have another origin So he then feeded upon vecna learned how humans think where there come from and kind of made a symbosis with him

[@cleveranyway6066]

When the hellfire club played d&d they drew 11 but they also needed an 8 to win vecna . What if Season 5 is all about eleven and kali reuniting as the only remaining kids with superpowers and take control of the Mind Flayer in the upside down . They way i see it Vecna himself can not be defeated otherwise so they need to target the hive mind that he co depends

[@RoninOCE]

11 and 8 might not be the only ones left. According to the comics we still have the ORIGINAL 3 & 9. 3 can influence people and 9 can generate heat.

[@cleveranyway6066]

@@RoninOCE The comics and the tv version differentiate . In the show every kid died during Henry's massacre. The only one who remains a question is 10 who was seen with papa last time . The only reason 3 and 9 to be alive is if they were in the first batch of experiments including El's mom back in the 60-70s

[@Alisonn2]

Nah

[@Tayy_Tayy]

They dropped 008 character she’s not in the show anymore

[@cleveranyway6066]

@@Tayy_Tayy the brothers only dropped the possibility of giving her a spin off or more episodes with her backstory . She still can appear in S5 to help El

[@thatweirddude5630]

Wow that was so much information that i didn’t know about!!! Thank you!

[@GamingxKnight]

I wasn't a huge fan of this reveal. I don't hate it, but was rather disappointed that all of a sudden, the Mind Flayer wasn't 'real' and was just a toy that Vecna was using all along. It felt undeserved/unearned as it came out of no where. I'm not saying reveal Vecna in earlier seasons, but somewhat hint at it throughout the seasons so there's some sort of build up and the reveal feel's earned. Don't get me wrong, I did like the season, but it was a mess.

[@raf686]

It is real. It's a being. But vecna took it to its own advantage. I don't think the being that was shown he is using was just doing its thing. I don't think this dimension had beef they were just there doing their thing. I actually dig it. It was a cool twist I thought. But season 5 has to nail the landing if you get what i mean. Who knows it could pay off more for you in season 5. I don't think we saw the full power of vecna yet. He just wanted that final kill to get the portals started.

[@idrisahmed2659]

Vecna in season 4 felt like he suddenly came out of nowhere .. it felt forced and that him being the main villain was not all intresting ...

[@dream8870]

@@raf686 or maybe the upside down was a dimension it consumed and was just looking for another to consume, being hawkins/earth, as soon as henry interacted with it, it immediately knew of another world that it could consume, and allowed henry to do whatever he needed to get it there, this honestly sounds better than vecna being the big bad all of sudden

[@housesavagemafia7504]

@@idrisahmed2659 Honestly it Did Feel Forced.

[@SkylarRose]

i interpreted the scene as such. Henry was seeing visions of the mind flayer and drawing them as a kid. He was being given powers by this big godly power on the otherside of reality. When banished there, he found the mind flayer. The very thing that he'd been seeing visions of his whole life. It was real! Then when he reached his hand out, the mind flayer saw the kid it had been communicating with/giving powrs to henry's whole life and then when they connected the mind flayer absorbed all of henry's information and then henry joined with the flayer. I think the flayer absorbed all of Henry's information from the other side of reality and now they work in conjuction. I don't think Henry created the flayer, I think his god and him now work as a unit with the same goal.

[@roddur1000]

wow thats a great theory, that would kinda explain where he got his power from aswell. It was all an attempt by the mind flayer or whatever god to bridge the realities

[@ste308]

This theory best be true

[@sunmi2539]

!!! That's a good take!!!

[@sammyboy_samik3554]

This theory makes sense but during the flash back what was Vecna saying it kinda sounded like he wanted new form since he didn't wanted to be human so he shaped the brainless cloud a.k.a mind flayer into predator he always wanted to be so spider and started control it for his goals. Even El and Will were saying they're the same being. Maybe next season Vecna will die sooner and mind flayer won't be more controlled but there will be left the evil from Vecna inside him and could became main villain again (idk i'm not good at stories🤷)

[@marie60790]

Yes!

[@sandorcleg7393]

Imagine if Marvel hyped up Thanos to be the big bad through many movies up until infinity war but then the writers decided to make Ebony Maw the big bad after being introduced into the movie. That’s what this feels like. I like Henry as one of the major villains but I just felt like the Mind Flayer should have been the big bad. The Duffers know what they’re doing though and I still hold hope for a major twist!

[@Dayz671]

No, I disagree the way season 4 was portrayed it would be a big waste. The plot twist in episode 7 was too good and too write that off just some Particle monster could be the Main Villian is stupid. Season 4 would just be a waste on how it was potrayed.

[@tannerfishalow4894]

It was a major twist because you guys can’t understand that they’re not separate villains but one

[@TheKain202]

@@tannerfishalow4894 The problem is that it was a dumb twist. Now the entire story is about an angry incel creep and his quest to take revenge on the world and its people for being fake and holding him back. It's the same sort of nonsense that killed the Alien franchise. The mysterious Space Jockey creature is just a spacesuit for ancient super evolved humans who created the humanity on Earth, and the titular Aliens are actually just a creation of a fruity android with a god complex and an unhealthy level of hatred for humanity he cooked up in a cave, with said ancient humans bio-tech, barely twenty years before the original movie. It's so similar it's scary.

[@fullmetalb5241]

@@Dayz671 Please don't EVER pretend to know or praise "good writing" ever again. You could not be more clueless.

[@Dayz671]

@the ugly duckling That was already explained it because there was a opened portal. It was due to Eleven, and Vecna opening portals

[@ndongengone7284]

I think that for once, the Duffers really missed the opportunity to make a dantological Boss monster for the universe of Stranger thing. Reducing the final enemy and the entire dimension of the Stranger Things universe to just a haughty, revenge-seeking human mass killer is a small regression in writing. I don't know, but it reduces (for me in any case), the dimension of the threat, not in the consequences on the physical level that it brings, but rather in the spirits. I mean, for a universe like Stranger Things, it would have been better if the final boss had been a cosmic or dimensional entity, that we couldn't clearly understand, that didn't necessarily have desires for revenge or that kind of feeling. human a bit reductive, but who just feels the need to expand again and again by braving the obstacles on his way, like a virus. Because, apart from Vecna ​​and the mind flayer, if we remove these two, the Upside Don seems like a banal world where demogorgons and demodogs roam, nothing more. So (if I was a writer) the smartest idea would have been to make Vecna ​​a collaborator. You see, an anomaly in your body and you realize that you have a use for each other and work together to achieve this same goal. For once, the Duffers were not very clever on this aspect, and it is felt in the public after the revelation of the Mind Flayer. The dimension of the threat is somewhat reduced given that it essentially comes from a human being guided by emotion.

[@johnpauldriskill8737]

I agree this retcon isn’t that great

[@Wolfman7870]

Agree. The way the story is playing out, I don't think Vecna was on the page since day one but nonetheless he's an incredible villain. I would rather the Mind Flayer be the big boss and a being all to himself that exists as an existential threat to all life but Vecna is an interesting enough villain to justify the retconn for me. If he was a weak character, I'd dislike it more but I'd rather they'd be collaborators than Henry's creation. Hoping the Mind Flayer takes on a life of it's own even after Vecna's death.

[@Rhiaanon]

Agreed!

[@simpvanas]

The series isn't even over yet. Vecna isn't the creator of the Upside Down, he's simply shaped it. The true ruler of the Upside Down is a cosmic or dimensional horror, and Eldritch Lovecraftian creature. Vecna showed it to Nancy. "A giant creature with a gaping mouth" over Hawkins. It is likely manipulating One, and I believe this creature is the origin of all the super powers on the show somehow. One keeps calling himself an explorer. All he did is make first contact with this Eldritch being.

[@fullmetalb5241]

Could not agree more. Unfortunately the mass amounts of audience is cheering for this regression and just looooove turning the show into personal beef between from angry telekinetic kid. It's completely ruined the show for me outside of the characters and their interactions.

[@garochompo5454]

nah i still think the mind flayer is the ruler. he just needed henry to give him a form. But that would mean he gave him his powers and showed him which form the mind flayer needed

[@BrainPilot]

If that is the case then that would be an incredible twist!

[@kamranki]

But they clearly showed that Vecna created the Mindflayer by capturing the shadow particles. Right?

[@notionvfx_]

@@kamranki no he found the mind flayer without a form but gave it its form, so the mind flayer most likely wont need vecna next season

[@johnpauldriskill8737]

@@kamranki he did t create it he just gave it form

[@kakashiuchiha3448]

Yeah, just like the zetsu used indra and then madara to free kaguya otsutsuki to get her full power in naruto

[@jamesroyle6888]

I feel like they've shoehorned in this character as the main villain. If it was alluded to from the start I wouldn't mind but... I just hope they don't arya stark it and have joyce Byers kill him with a broken Christmas light. I'll punch doors.

[@qt7811]

This is actually funny 😂

[@roddur1000]

looooooool facts, atleast they explained vecnas motivation unlike night king

[@BigOlBoy008]

I think vecna is still the 5 star general just vecna gave his leader a form

[@adonisvfx]

Fr

[@secretagenttau2233]

That's what I'm saying! The mindflayer was always there. But it took a form 001 would recognize

[@dashaunbaylor4965]

It was confirmed vecna controls the mind flayer

[@BigOlBoy008]

@@dashaunbaylor4965 by who

[@dmacg5520]

@@secretagenttau2233 it literally shows vecna using his powers to shape it, vecna made it a spider

[@simpvanas]

I think we will see some of the Mind Flayer again but it is simply an extension of Vecna and little more. Just another device and means to an end for him. The most important thing said in Stranger Things 4 was when Nancy told the gang what Vecna showed her; "I saw...this giant creature, with a gaping mouth". I'm going out on a limb but I do believe this is the creature, a Lovecraftian horror, which is the origin of the powers One, Eleven and the others use in Hawkins lab. I watch Stranger Things with closed captioning on and every time it shows Eleven or One using their powers the subtitle literally says "Eldritch thrumming". Whatever this creature is Nancy saw is the ultimate evil on the show. It can't be the Mind Flayer because Nancy mentioned a "dark cloud over Hawkins" and she knows the shape of the Mind Flayer, having seen it's fleshy counterpart in season 3. If she saw the Mind Flayer, she would have said so.

[@kjamesjr]

Makes sense when we look at D&D lore, which this show seems heavily inspired by. Mind flayers are WAY below Vecna in the pecking order.

[@chimp4225]

Nice drawing dude

[@kjamesjr]

@@chimp4225 Thanks. It’s a drawing of me done by my daughter for a school project.

[@dragmasanimation]

The Demogorgon is also the Prince of all demons in D&D, roughly equal to Orcus, the god of undeath. Not a very good point.

[@small3687]

I'm incredibly interested in the upside down and what it was like before Vekna. What did the demigorgons eat to survive how did that world come to be seperate from Hawkins. Why does it seem like telekentic things are more powerful?. I love when shows throw you in the deep end of a world but then circle back and explain everything. I kinda hate when they leave it all to hand waving and speculation.

[@oxcaxx]

I’m kinda upset the Mind Flayer was given an origin story. In my mind, he was supposed to be an unexplainable, ancient, malevolent being. He wouldn’t have needed an origin story or a motivation or anything for doing the things he does as they are beyond our grasp of understanding. It would have made sense for this entity to exist in the upside down, Vecna finding him after being banished to the realm, and connecting himself to the hivemind to get enhanced powers. Instead, we find out Vecna created the mind flayer with the explanation as to why he looks like a spider being 'because Vecna liked spiders as a kid'. The Mind Flayer is not a cool unexplainable ancient being anymore. It’s the imaginary friend of some child that came to life. It kinda ruined a lot of the mystery around the upside down and the whole series as a whole for me. :/

[@Mrdotoomuchfr]

Rightttt, the fate of the world is at risk bc of some emo kid with telekinesis and daddy issues.

[@deadnorth8648]

I feel the same about the joker but that happened Sometimes it's just not needed

[@_Gdium_]

CRY ABOUT IT🤓🤓🤓

[@roddur1000]

fans mad their favourite theory didnt come true

[@DudeWerewolf]

Exactly. It makes the scope of the Upside Down and the lore around Stranger Things so much smaller.

[@mrfapschlick4494]

When Vecna showed Nancy the future, she spoke of something worse than what she has already seen. Keep in mind that Nancy is one of a few characters who has seen Demogorgons, Demodogs and Demobats. In fact, Nancy, Steve and Dustin are the only ones who have seen all three. But Nancy saw things attacking Hawkins in her vision that she hasn't seen before. I'm guesing the main thing she described is whatever laid the egg that we briefly saw in Season 1. We saw that the vines and the demogorgons, etc existed before 001/Henry/Vecna mastered the black shadow. However, the Demobats dropped out of the sky when Vecna was temporarily injured. He lost his conenction with them. It is whether or not everything can now exist without Vecna the way it did before. Did Vecna create the hive mind or did he just mind control the existing hive mind controlled by the consciousness of the black shadow? Was the black shadow conscious? Could it take its own control if Vecna was killed? Or do the monsters become like humans thinking for themselves. Technically, if Vecna can command the shadow, so can Eleven in his absence. I think the main character we have to worry about in Season 5 is Will Byers who clearly has a similar connection with Vecna that Harry Potter had with Voldemort. Will may have to die for Vecna to die.

[@therightemotive8547]

Yeah but Harry didn’t die in order for voldemort to die

[@kysdie9979]

Yes harry needed to die so h let voldemort kill him, but he was resurrected via the resurrection stone

[@TheSomethingnew1]

@@therightemotive8547 Technically he did. Harry was protected by Lily’s sacrifice. Harry also had a part of Voldemort’s soul in him. In the deathly hallows, when Voldemort launches the killing curse towards Harry, he actually kills the remaining part of him that lives in Harry. However Harry doesn’t die because he still has magical protection from his mom. But Voldemort dies because all of the horcruxes had been destroyed. It’s a little more complex but that’s it in a nutshell. I can see how this may happen with Will. His character was also really emotional this season and I think they are setting the tone for season 5.

[@mrfapschlick4494]

It is highly likely that I'm right about this because in D&D lore Vecna actually does have something similar to a Horcrux, which he keeps his life force/sould/consciousness in so he can't be killed if his body is destroyed. In D&D, it is called a Phylactery. All the evidence currently suggests that Will Byers is Vecna's Philactery. If Vecna is killed, he would take over Will's body making it his own new body. So technically Will Byers would be the new Henry Creel. There would be nothing of Will left. They're are too many similarities between the characters already and I don't think the Duffer Brothers do anything by coincidence.

[@greatomegax8175]

What I'm thinking is he really didn't create anything because that was never his power he only manipulates and controls things like the mind flayer he shaped it but he didn't create it it was there way before he was and all the other creatures so I wouldn't make sense for him to be the flayed or create the upsidedown and shit it just doesn't make sense

[@firstlast9846]

*I’d prefer it if The Mind Flayer* was just a cosmic entity separate from Vecna.. cos that just means Vecna’s been clapped 5 times by children - - I really don’t understand why they felt they needed this pretty poor retcon.

[@notionvfx_]

i know like i really didnt know how to feel about it when vecna said that he was behind it, it was kinda anticlimactic when i heard what vecna said. it felt like the writers got lazy, but even if they didnt, they sure missed out on a really good setup for next seasons plot/the series finale

[@zero1188]

but that would me a cosmic entity got clapped 5 times by children that would be worse

[@WendyMcCor696]

@@zero1188 I mean that's how it works if you wanted more than 1 season......

[@notionvfx_]

@@zero1188 yh but it could of also meant the mind flayer was just using vecna, and to be fair they did win in the end by opening the gate between the upside down and hawkins at the end of this season

[@eyebrowcow5914]

Not really a retcon… the duffer brothers have had a whole layout for the show planned from the start. It’s more the fact that you thought something was gonna happen and it didn’t and now you’re disappointed

[@andsiriisstupidyes4118]

I incredibly dislike the idea of vecna being in control. It was the only part of season 4 that I just plainly didn’t like. I far preferred the mind flayer as the one behind it all, think of it like this: Would you rather have an ominously foreshadowed, well built up to, seemingly incredibly powerful being from an alternate reality with untold potential and motives be the main villain, or some guy they randomly decided to introduce late in the show, with no ominous foreshadowing, no build up, and not a half as menacing visual appearance be the main villain. I’d have been fine with Vecna being the ‘five star general’ or someone with still huge power working alongside the mind flayer, but he lacked any foreshadowing or build up for me to actually give a crap about him in comparison to the mindflayer. If you ask me he isn’t half as enticing of a villain as the mind flayer. It was the revelation of season 4 that kind of killed the joy of stranger things for me. It just isn’t ‘stranger’ things anymore as far as i’m concerned, it’s ‘some dude with mind powers and cliche motives’ things. Not a fan of it, until it’s relevant again, i’m just gonna pretend it didn’t happen, because it kind of ruined the show for me.

[@creepynights9621]

Same feeling , hope mind flayer turns out to be the main villian

[@ramon8051]

Agree 100% with you.

[@urmum5860]

actually if you look closely throughout the entire show, vecna’s been here since s1

[@chimp4225]

@@urmum5860 that’s actually true. Vecna was the one who kidnapped Will because he opened the shed door with telekinetic powers which demogorgons don’t have

[@arshu_parshu1999]

@@chimp4225 *the* demogorgon has powers unlike the other demogorgons as we can see her open portals so the person who opened the door was undoubtedly opened by *the* demogorgon

[@braydonguitar649]

I would love to see more videos bro this was sick

[@anthamin]

Gotta be honest, was not a huge fan of this. This was my one major gripe. A massive incomprehensible eldritch being revealed to just be Vecna's creation really takes so much of the mystery and awe out of the flayer. ST2 flayer was so intimidating and mysterious and for what? I just feel like the Mind Flayer should have been the big bad ultimately, and now knowing its just been Vecna the whole time feels a bit anticlimactic. As always, this is just my opinion. I just wish the Flayer was the true final boss of the whole show as it feels like it's all been leading to that.

[@pokemonovice9758]

Well, your opinion is factual and correct, don't be so modest. It's a fact that it's way too underwhelming and disappointing, that the main villain is just a mentally-ill kid that never went to therapy, who created that whole upside down and controlled all the creatures there because he found a cloud full of strange particles in the sky); instead of the main evil threat of the Stranger Things lore, being the Mind Flayer, this super powerful, interdimensional and unknown creature/consciousness full of evil and power/will to infect living beings and conquer/destroy the whole world; the main threat has to be this "Eldritch" god-like being full of evil waiting to eat other worlds and completely control/manipulate/kill beings inferior to it/him

[@LocksAndChains]

I preferred the Mind Flayer as a cosmic horror. I really hope it isn't just One.

[@deangreen2567]

@the ugly duckling An omniscient entity would hardly be combatted by a 16 year old girl with reasonably powerful telekinetic powers would it.

[@NatTurnergrandsonChrisdorner]

Agree. An eldritch entity that laid dormant until vecna woke it up would've been cool. Ive had no complaints about the show until that reveal.

[@chimp4225]

Why is nobody talking about how Henry Creel literally drew the Mindflayer as a kid? He can either predict the future or he’s already seen the Mindflayer before

[@deangreen2567]

@@chimp4225 I thought about that too, but there is also the chance that he drew what he wanted to be, a huge spider - and when he came across the ‘shadow’ particles, he merely moulded that in to this image. Hence the mind flayer.

[@Sebmk12]

Also the duffers said that season 5 will be going very in dept about the origins of the upside down and the upside down entirely, but I believe that the mind flayer is going to invade Hawkins, I honestly don’t know how the crew is gonna win this one, one theory I never see anyone talking about is Will is going to have powers and the others that escaped from the lab might go and help EL, there was a lot more into that theory but I can’t really type all it out

[@blaze556922]

I think this makes perfect sense because from the beginning the biggest questions that were left unanswered or why this town and why now?

[@GigaNiga17]

But what exactly was the darkness. I think this already had some sort of hive mind that Henry utilized to then have dominion and control over everything by taking over the darkness -> the mind flayer.

[@YourHealthTV]

I guess Season 5 will be about waking Max., which would mean that Max is no longer dead and the 4th gate is no longer open and the portals to the Upside Down will be reduced to their previous sizes.

[@harshit0041]

And yes we will loss,main characters this time as this is the last season

[@martinholmes6763]

@@harshit0041 i feel like will might die seeing as he’s the main one connected to the upside down. my second guess is eleven

[@SumilatsFansReadURLs]

kinda lame max didn't die imo. the only death was eddie after he decided to commit suicide

[@lXlElevatorlXl]

Well she seems clinically death When eleven visited her mind there was nothing So maybe she is brain dead what makes her dead Or in the moment she died her mind was trapped in vecnas mind who was killed in the mean time resulting in her mind being trapped in nothing

[@harshit0041]

from season 3 , Mike, will, Lucas, dustin ,really spent any time together as they used to in season 1 and 2, I want to see them and handle the situation together with max or without

[@Imhotep397]

With upside down’s existence predating Henry’s expulsion to it I have to assume there’s a history and perhaps a will/entity that also predates Henry’s occupation that may return. There’s been no explanation for where the upside down came from, why it existed in the first place. The Duffer Bros. using gold to describe the light there before Henry’s corrupting the place could be indicative of the Upside Down not being inherently evil.

[@dmacg5520]

Ya I was thinking something like that and I’ve heard no one else mention how the sky was yellow before unlike how now it’s red and black, so I’m assuming before the upside down was a peaceful realm, not good or evil, becasue we see a demogorgon just walk past vecna just living life, and vecna ending up corrupting it and corrupting the power which is the mindflayer

[@natashajames5083]

great vid!

[@BrainPilot]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@jorgeescudero5034]

What seems to be off about all of this is that we never had a hint of 001 in any other season than 4th. So they inserted the mindflyer and we linked it to being the big boss in the upside down trying to reach to the reald world. It makes sense that Vecna unleashed his powers and create a new dimension for him... but to make it feel right, we needed some Easter eggs in past seasons. Now it just seems like something they suddenly think about.

[@gabrieldemaria117]

I’m not a fan of this decision. Probably in the minority here but this just feels like a forced way to make the new villain of the show the biggest bad. Definitely takes away the fascination of the upside down & mind flayer when we learn it’s all just some asshole. Oh well…

[@wllulu]

Agree

[@johnpauldriskill8737]

I think most people would agree with you

[@moman3w]

You not in the minority

[@brendanoriega9903]

Yeah it was pretty cliché honestly lmao

[@yo.hi..]

I still can see them pulling some big plot twists in s5, they said it's gonna be mainly focused on the upside down and we still don't know how Henry and the other kids got their powers

[@DressedRunner]

This kinda discredit what we felt about the mind flayer, which was this god-like cosmic entity which existed in the upside town for a very very long time - comparable to lovecraftian monsters like the Cthulhu. But now we know that it's actually just a tool created by Vecna like 10 years ago. Really downplay on its horror aspect.

[@Cestariarts]

Yeah, I didn't like that. Remember Dustin comparing with the actual mind flayer from D&D? "It's so ancient, no one knows where originally it's from" or something. That had much more depth than just a dusty shadow being weaponized by a creepy dude

[@HouseHead4Life]

Loved the increased levels of cosmic horror of this series- hints of Cthulhu, The Void, Hellraiser, The Mist etc

[@ZeroJohnnyx]

this is a serious downgrade to the plot and a serious retcon. it was obvious the mind flayer was the main villain. Vecna was an interesting villain, but he was nothing compared to the mind flayer. Vecna being a minion of the mind flayer was more interesting.

[@scoposteve8470]

Fr. I loved te mind flayer so much and what they are doing will ruin the series

[@DanZaacks]

My theory is that henry was connected with the mind flayer as a child, thats why he knew how he looked like and why he likes spider, also he called the spiders "gods of our world", and the mind flayer looks like a spider and is extrimlly powerfull, it also explains why he was killing his familly

[@nletecca8030]

He made it into a spider because he liked them

[@DanZaacks]

@@nletecca8030 but the mind flayer was already exist, he didnt creat him he just changed he's shape to look like a spider.

[@nletecca8030]

@@DanZaacks yeh that’s what i mean he formed it into a spider it wasn’t already like that

[@DanZaacks]

@@nletecca8030 but he didn't give him his powers, the mind flayer has no body, its just particles, it can look like whatever it wants, for example in the cage in russia it didnt look like a spider, but it was part of the mind flayer

[@amayashannon3354]

Great theory

[@narutotrickzxtv3D]

The initial shock through me off but honestly it was disappointing to find out that He was also the mind flayer it felt very lazy and a cheap way to wrap everything up in a bow like for one character to have all these aliases and be all these different things at once makes everything prior feel a little under whelming because we know it was him the whole time. I also feel like this was there way of making the Villain more grounded because prior we thought it was some super natural force that wanted to devour and merge the two worlds but nope it’s a psychotic human basically trying to destroy Hawkins this whole time a lot more realistic but also not to out there.

[@tarantolopictures481]

Yeah I was personally disappointed with it. Like a hive mind villain like the mind flayer being the big bad is so much cooler than an angry psycho teenager. Plus the mind flayer reminds me of the grave mind from halo which was prob one of the greatest villains ever made

[@roddur1000]

For a show that constantly has plot twists you would think fans would be smart enough to not take everything for its word until the show is over. We still dont know if vecna was being manipulated or not man give it time

[@phedradee]

@@roddur1000 literally

[@pokemonovice9758]

I hope you all are right, guys. Henry Creel cant be this super powerful interdimensional consciousness full of evil and power/will to infect living beings and conquer/destroy the whole world

[@MrLuffy9131]

He basically made his own twisted DnD and became Vecna himself lol

[@AA-mj4sn]

The mind flayer was such a god-like threat, it's really demeaning to make him the creation of a simple single human being's mind. It's like when Ridley Scott retconned the xenomorphe as the creation of David, an android. I'm so tired of all these stories ending with/or the writers overexplaning them with the twist that all of the problems and dark mysteries of the universe were caused by the nombrilism of a random psycho with a superiority complex. It's lazy and kills all sentiment of something beyond our comprehension. You know... what we usually do in Sci Fi fictions.

[@mustafazubair4389]

Mind flayer was the main villan for me the fact that vecna created him was a step down if you ask me mind flayer always gives me vibe of an un known entity

[@QuipStudios]

mind flayer existed before vecna found him. Mind flayer was in stationary form but then vecna shifted into shadow monster form and then the gate is open by eleven the mind flayer sends out demogorgan and season 2 demodogs and the shadow dust that escaped and is lst out there season 4: vecna the general of the army along with demodogs and demogorgan that have the shadow dust russia was keeping but were missing the shadow dust from will and in season 3 mind flayer sent its stronger weapon which was spider form so where is vecna sending the weapons? And to keep will from finding the big weapon of the mind flayer vecna would use his power to stop that so that making Vecna just a general and just shifted the mind flayer into a stronger form also where was the mindflayer when max went to snowball because mind flayer was last saw in season 2 just standing above the building with the snowball inside so what will happen next? Vecna might think he is king not mindflayer and open the gates and come out where he will have stronger power then float in the air and try to kill the mind flayer with a vision failing and then shadow monster form of mind flayer comes out the gate killing vecna then mind flayer is stronger and takes over world

[@bruh-id7md]

He didnt created it he just gave him a shape

[@alexnclips6790]

I agree..vecna is lame

[@sidnew2739]

Vecna, being intelligent and having a personality, is the far better villain.

[@bruh-id7md]

@@alexnclips6790 hell noo

[@danielnicholson25]

I theorize that the mind flayer/darkness has been influencing vecna since he was a child and using him, giving him the illusion that he is doing his will, when in actuality, he is doing the will of the flayer. Similar to Madara being used by kaguya in naruto

[@scoposteve8470]

That would be so cool. I really hope they go down this road

[@Maronics]

"The darkness that preexisted prior to his arrival" - he might have absorbed it (like the demogorgons in russia did), he might have given it a spider like shape but there's no indication he isn't under the control of something else. "He was the upside down" - and as mentioned, the darkness was there first, therefore he became part of the darkness, not the other way around. Putting aside the source of his powers and the connection between the powers and the upside down in the first place. You're just saying the chicken was there before the egg without any basis.

[@SumilatsFansReadURLs]

agreed generally the universe doesn't just create giant magical shadows naturally

[@bigboypockets2041]

Absolutely agree

[@EmilioSuperTheories]

So in theory Eleven could control the hive of the upside down!

[@perplexedon9834]

The darkness/Mind Flayer is definitely an independent consciousness, as in season 3 it refers to "we", which is either itself as a hive mind, or itself and Vecna. We also see that Vecna in the present looks very different than when he found the darkness, so it seems more like they symbiotically reflect each other. I even think they might have Vecna fail, and the Mind Flayer abandon him and use Will as a host instead as the big bad, as it would be thematically fitting for 001 to be consumed by powers he didnt fully understand. Given the DnD analogies, it seems like Vecna is a warlock, making a pact with an eldritch god to increase his power, while Eleven is like a cleric, drawing power from her beliefs and values. I definitely think this will be explained in season 5, along with why upside-down Hawkins is in the image of the day the demogorgan broke into the real world and took Will.

[@wumbowyatt2300]

The mind flayer does have intelligence but them making the mind flayer the big bad again would make season 4 pointless. Also, vecna is the mind flayer so either way the mind flayer is the big bad cuz vecna is the big bad they are technically both the big bad.

[@CargoShorts7]

@@wumbowyatt2300 Yeah but making Vecna the big bad kind of tosses out the vast ancient and unknown demon world and condenses its mystery/history down into the 10 years since Eleven sent him there. I could see it being a scenario where it was Vecna all along attacking hawkins, thinking that he had found the mind flayer and was in control of it, but it was really the mind flayer who found him and subconsciously guided him to it so that it may gain passage into the human world.

[@wumbowyatt2300]

@@CargoShorts7 you can still see the shadow as a ancient being, but vecnas character isn’t the one to be the pawn. So it wouldn’t make sense to make another plot twist with the mind flayer that will basically make everything in season 4 pointless. That’s what happened with season 2 and 3. Season 3 did something that made season 2 pointless.

[@wumbowyatt2300]

@@CargoShorts7 also, the mystery is still there. We absolutely know nothing about the upside down.

[@wumbowyatt2300]

@@CargoShorts7 so, as we know so far. Vecna is the big bad. It could change but that would ruin season 4 entirely

[@fannyalexander5906]

I love Vecna but I feel the final boss should be something cosmic out of this world lovecraftian one.

[@ZenShroud1]

If they want to draw from another 80's film(and one they've already used), they could have the Mind Flayer be like Gozer's destructor avatar from Ghostbusters, whose form is chosen by one of them. Ray inadvertently chose the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man. Henry chose spiders.

[@Cortanarama]

I think I still like the idea of him being the 5 star general of the mind flayer instead of vice versa. That season 2 ending where the mind flayer is looking right down on the snow ball is still prob the scariest part of this show.

[@JRM92B]

Honestly now it all make sense, except for the origin of Henry's power. Why he had them as a kid to begin with

[@nletecca8030]

Yeh I still don’t understand that

[@captaindexpool3192]

I mean in season 5 they will explain the upside down’s origin, maybe that too?

[@hamm8934]

Because vecna is not the Mindflayer and the Mindflayer gave him his powers when he communicated with him via spiders. This video is wrong and did not listen to the end of episode 7. He says the spiders taught him how to be a predator and to hate the construct of time.

[@captaindexpool3192]

@@hamm8934 thats an interesting theory but not at all confirmed. We’ll see in season 5 but how could the flayer communicate with Henry without an open portal though

[@hamm8934]

@@captaindexpool3192 I agree that it's not confirmed and I don't know how the mindflayer would have been able to make initial contact other than through the spiders in some way. Thinking back to earlier seasons, the science teacher explained time travel through the metaphor of a fly being able to go through time. But the spiders make me think that maybe time is more like a spider on a web than a fly buzzing around. If this plays a part, then the Mindflayer could have done some sort of time travel back in time to Henry to realize his plan, something like Back To The Future. No clue really, just speculating. But I really don't think it is safe to say that Vecna = Mindflayer, especially since he explains that the spiders taught him how to be a predator and that his real hatred was the construct of time. There's something supernatural with the spiders. Also, I think it's subtle but intentional that Dr. Brenner says that eleven will need to not crawl, walk, or run, but fly to defeat what is coming. If the spider web plays into it, I suspect Eleven will need to somehow control time more elegantly like a fly than the mindflayer on a web defeat it. We''ll see what big twists are to come. maybe the hydra finally.

[@IYKYK-wh8pb]

If Vecna can control the hive mind so can El as we’ve seen. Also his weakness is good memories and love right? So his dad might be integral to destroying him. I hope they don’t do a GOT with the final season!

[@justintejada3243]

I think Vecna uses the particles to control everything. Like how he did with Will when he just shoved those shadow particles down his throat, he probably did that to everything in the upside down, which

[@rohanwinchester9144]

It looks like the dark cloud is chained/sealed and Vecna freed it. The dark cloud is Iuz (pronounced YOOZ, EE-uz[10] or EYE-ooze[11][12]) is the chaotic evil demigod of Deceit, Evil, Oppression, Pain, and Wickedness. Iuz is variously called "The Old One" and "Old Wicked," among other titles. Unlike most Greyhawk deities, Iuz makes his home on Oerth, where he rules a broad swath of the Flanaess known as the Empire of Iuz.

[@SunflowerPower22]

For people who are not happy with the mind flayer revelation......In the 80s cartoon Dungeons and Dragons Venger (i.e Vecna) is described by the Dungeon Master in the intro as 'the many faces of evil' as appears to the children in various guises and especially monsters, it was logical that Vecna was in charge and I guessed this. Vengers main aim is to thrwart the children and to take the childrens powers integrating them with his own, just like Vecna. Also in the cartoon Venger (Vecna) is also in command of a shadow entity who the duffer brothers have built on and reinterpreted as the mind flayer. In the unrealeased animated ending Venger turns out to have been the Dungeon master's son all along. I wonder if Stranger things will flip this and make El Vecna's daughter or something similar with another character. In the conclusion of the un released animated script after trying to trap Venger in a box and a huge battle which they win The children realise they were never really meant to destroy Venger (vecna) instead they were always meant to restore him from his darkness and black magic to his former good self prior to his issues and evil deeds and it ends with Venger (Vecna) restored along with the lands of the realm which no longer looks like barron and hellish and is green again.

[@Machozz]

Yea.. but Vecna was weaker than toddler El and he became the boss of the Upside Down? Grown up El would make the Upside Down drink her bath water then.

[@sammyofficial1]

@@Machozz Henry was fighting an 8 year old eleven and henry was 30 at the time they fought in 1979. rn eleven is 14 or 15 and vecna (henry) is 37

[@Machozz]

@@sammyofficial1 whats your point

[@sammyofficial1]

@@Machozz henry got clapped by a kid. He is more stronger now

[@Machozz]

@@sammyofficial1 yeah a grown ass guy who got clapped by an 8 year old could be the boss of the upside down? That shows how weak the creatures in the upside down are. Even a dude who got smacked by a toddler could rule that world like wtf. The directors really messed up the storyline.

[@RealPiccks]

I don't believe this is correct, I believe the Mind Flayer IS in control of the upside down, and he always was. Henry just manifested the flayer to be whatever he wanted, which was the spider form

[@higheveryday3506]

Yes, I do believe since the Mind Flayer can also control the hive mind

[@ramen6124]

this! henry didnt create the mind flayer, he simply formed it and inserted a little bit of his own personal intent. The mind flayer was the original being and according to the wiki, has ultimate control over the physical landscape and nature of the upside down. I personally believe that originally it was the primal manifestation of the upside down and thus its ruler since it was created, and henry was simply the spark that started the fire, giving it knowledge of another dimension and the true manifestation it needed

[@nayjer2576]

Yes I believe this to. Otherwise there would be nothing more to tell about the upside down, but their are several things that doesnt make sense yet and can be explained. "Vecna IS the upside down" is way to easy.

[@ramen6124]

@@nayjer2576 yeah totally, if this was it there'd be nothing more to say

[@RealPiccks]

@@nayjer2576 Exactly, I also wanna what happened to the upside down from 1979 where it was bare-ish and when Vecna manifested the Flayer to 1983-86

[@deralbtraumritter8573]

Everyone seems to forget the gate in the woods Nancy used in S1

[@bofadeez8480]

I like what they're doing with the upside down. It gives Lovecraft vibes. This sort of ethereal wasteland filled with ancient creatures. It's cool.

[@Steve.Maverick]

I’m glad to see a lot of people in the comments are siding with idea of the Flayer being the penultimate villain. An Emotionless cosmic entity above petty human squabbles. There’s something so much more terrifying about the flayer’s enormity and mystery. I’m hoping that it’s the one controlling Vecna, or at the very least if the writers insist on Vecna being the final villain, that the flayer is like an ultimate otherworldly weapon that he’s simply aiming to cause destruction but could never defeat if it was turned on him. Almost like the Xenomorphs in Alien. I don’t think Vecna is capable of stopping it, he may even fear it which is why he felt the need to take control of it

[@a_bionicle6635]

Exceeeept that would literally make the main villain into “Imma be evil because evil, BLARRGH!” Talk about uninteresting… jeez

[@hamm8934]

@@frewthelookingglass860 shhh it sounds more compelling

[@fullmetalb5241]

@@a_bionicle6635 that's exactly what 001 is.....and add on top of just being evil for the sake of being evil they layer on him being an evil version of the main "hero" talk about a huge YIKES.

[@a_bionicle6635]

@@fullmetalb5241 no… that’s completely false. He is a mentally troubled man who believes that humanity is inferior due to its inefficiency and inability to evolve. He believes that they are complacent and have little purpose. Here’s the thing about that: he’s not objectively wrong. However, it’s more than that concept that matters. It’s empathy, emotion and love. And those are things that vecna lacks that eleven has. That’s the difference between them. There is depth in that. What would be the juxtaposition between the mind flayer and her, hm? Mind flayer is big evil monster and she’s… eleven?? In essence, 001 isn’t evil for the sake of it. He’s evil because he believes in a logical cause. He’s evil because he lacks empathy.

[@fullmetalb5241]

@@a_bionicle6635 Hahahahahaha

[@kamerondowning8294]

Damn I thought The Mind Flayer was the main villain. But ig I was wrong but man Vecna, The Mind Flayer, Demogorgans, and Demobats r all dangerous and cool IMO. I jus didn’t think it would be Vecna controlling all of the Upside Down but can’t wait for ST5.

[@Nadine2cool]

I know right, never thought vecna is the one behind all of this.

[@vinnbalor]

I really liked how they managed to combine all these stories together and makes vecna the main villain

[@kamerondowning8294]

@@vinnbalor ye same I like how they did plus that was rlly good twist too but I didn’t think Vecna would be the Thanos of ST😭

[@kamerondowning8294]

@@Nadine2cool I’m jus surprised as u r man this literally blowed my mind honestly😅

[@germaing5455]

Vecna didnt create the mind flayer he only give it a form of a spider and i think the mind flayer give henry his power.

[@duck_thor3585]

ironic how henry/vecna calls upside down "a place untouched by human" and then reshapes it using smoke monster/mind flayer

[@mpjstuff]

It means that if #1 had not gone to the upside down -- he would not have created a world in his own image to be a Hellscape -- it could potentially take on other forms if someone with more mental power gave direction to the particle storm. #1's control over the upside-down allowed him to create ways to get more power, and more control in a feedback loop.

[@xaoc6084]

I think the word “created” isn’t the correct word here at all. That darkness can quite clearly be sentient and existing BEFORE he changes its appearance. There is no evidence that he “created” it at all.

[@samuelault4723]

What evidence is there that the black cloud was sentient?

[@garyabblott5815]

I believe the darkness is negative energy manifested and Henry learned to harness it.

[@xaoc6084]

@@samuelault4723 Because of the fact it already there and the darkness is shown to be corporeal outside of its shape (eg Russia)

[@xaoc6084]

@@garyabblott5815 I find it easier to believe it is like a force (think godlike being, primordial deity or the phoenix force). All of those are still entities and therefore still being/exist

[@anyatime2035]

Well we know from Season 2 that the mind flayer thinks it’s the superior race & therefore wants to control and take over, exactly what Henry/Vecna kept saying. That humans were weak and he and Eleven were superior. So maybe that’s why the mind flayer let him merge with it. BUT we see in Season 4 that Vecna as a kid was drawing the mind flayer, mind you that was WAY before he ever knew about the upside down. Soooo maybe he was flayed at a young age or something. They really need to explain how he was drawing the mind flayer & how he had powers from such a young age

[@romeoallkja9097]

He didn't draw the mind flayer,he draw a big spider because he liked them but when he found the particles(mind flayer) he shaped them into a spider(again because he likes spiders

[@anyatime2035]

@@romeoallkja9097 possibly. We don’t actually know that for sure. The mind flayer could have been the one putting those thoughts in his head. Since we basically don’t have an explanation yet as to why or how he has his powers

[@romeoallkja9097]

Unlikely in my opinion but you have a point

[@arshu_parshu1999]

No he drew a big spider demon monster when he was a kid because he loved red back spiders but when he saw the mind flayer he turned it in to the big spider demon monster he imagined

[@randomperson9224]

This makes a lot more sense than the mind flayer being the one in charge of everything

[@lordgreat6051]

Considering the darkness/chaos was as much self aware as demogorgan before getting controlled by vecna it could be possible we see them turn on him in the end or he just simply lose control n get consumed

[@jonathanfrancesco3305]

I am not convinced that the Mind Flayer answers to Vecna yet. Clearly the Upside Down was a thing before Vecna got there and even though Vecna may still be alive, the fact that he feels like he was defeated so easily kind of makes me think he's not the big cheese he thinks he is.

[@ekris5072]

I gotta love how everybody agrees that the Mind Flayer was the one who gave Vecna his powers.

[@dmin5782]

I don't think I saw a lot of people thinking that personally.

[@niccocraft5nb]

you are the first person saying this lol

[@idrisahmed2659]

Yea I agree to that too .. I want to be the other way around .... Like are people wanting to c El vs vecna take 2 in season 5 wud be so lame

[@syntheovaldy5173]

lol where have you have seen that? If the Mind Flayer gave powers to One, could One just get in UD and at first glance, just shape the particles into whatever he felt like?

[@garyabblott5815]

I read they are going more into the Upside down lore next season, I was hoping the mind flayer was some kind of deity, but now we know Vecna controls it I hope it's negative matter manifested or something created by an even bigger evil, like the god/devil of the upside down... hopefully we see him/her, I know it;s the last season so It would be hard to introduce and just kill straight away so hopefully it's indifferent to whats going on and doesnt care because it benefits/unaffected regardless of the outcome... I dunno, I like that cosmic stuff.

[@nerdygameraddicts861]

Want to see a video of demogorgon Origin & what it is. Stranger Things hasn't explained this yet though.

[@KC-py5vq]

Vecna didn’t “create” the mindflayer, they’re both separate entities. He’s just using the mindflayer power for his own.

[@lisah3460]

He literally said he created the mindflayer.

[@J_WheelerDoll30]

Henry created the mind flayer with the black particles. He made it spider-like because of his liking of black widows

[@_.Ash.._]

it was just a dark cloud..vecna created it into a shadow monster which he can use to possess all the creatures of the upside down

[@KC-py5vq]

@@lisah3460 no he didn’t lmao. Did you even watch the show??? The fucking mindflayer is a separate being. Use those two brain cells

[@generalbutterscotch4887]

One thing that strikes me as odd is that Henry just so happened to draw the Mind Flayer exactly as it is without having any prior knowledge of the Upside Down or the darkness he would later use to "invent" the creature when he was later banished there. This leads me to believe that perhaps Henry was in fact under the influence of that dimension since he first discovered his powers, and the Upside Down may have even been responsible for gifting him his psychic abilities in the first place, for whatever reason.

[@christopherlacher3544]

Laughed...cheered..jumped..cried. Can't believe Eddie is gone. After such a momentous scene and personal discovery heros journey.

[@josephjoestar3627]

I’d like to see the mine flayer pull a switcharoo on vecna and maybe speak and that’s how we’ll get our info dump about how the upside down was formed.

[@malcon8459]

I think the upside-down changed to Hawkins because of the memories of the victims killed by vecna or the mind flayer

[@Mrdotoomuchfr]

So the memories of the children at the lab😂😂? That’s all who Veccna killed at the time. And The mind flayer never killed anyone, it was minding its own business in the upside until Henry came long. It was already explained that it mimicked earth when El pushed one through and the organisms began to bond with the real world. By the time will is taken years later, the transformation is completed and it’s copied planet earth 🌏 completely.

[@malcon8459]

@@Mrdotoomuchfr he killed the children but after that he started to consume ppl

[@xuephyre3225]

I think its to show the victims who do get stuck there familiarity

[@YourMom-iy6cv]

No i think since el opened the gate the mind flayer somehow entered the real Hawkins and made a copy from what it remembered or it was will Byers, we don’t know

[@cwilliams7630]

The duffers wrote themselves into a corner. The main villain was supposed to be an eldritch ancient entity from another dimension but instead they made it some high school shooter with telekinesis

[@josemejia-xz7sh]

I was really hopping the mind flayer to be a separate being because I wanted to see some master and student kind of relationship between him and vecna.

[@darthjc4]

I really hope it's a case of the Mind Flayer just made Vecna THINK he was in control but in reality he was under the Mind Flayer's influence the entire time. Like Vecna gave him form and the Flayer just accepted it but infiltrated Vecna's mind and subliminally gave him commands and made him think it was all his idea.